BibleProject - The Wisdom of Job Part 3: Job Vs. Elihu

Episode Date: September 11, 2016

In this episode, Tim and Jon try to tackle some of the glaring questions about the story of Job. They talk about the surprise friend, Elihu, who seems to show up out of nowhere towards the end of the story. They also spend some time discussing Job’s speech in chapter 28. There’s a lot to unpack in that chapter, and understanding it may give us clues as to what this book is all about. Finally the guys look at Job’s final showdown with God and how God responds to Job’s accusations of being unjust and unfair. In the first part of the episode (01:53-07:29), the guys talk about Job’s surprise friend, Elihu. He comes into the story and reaffirms for Job that God is just, but he also hints at a more complex understanding of God’s justice. Yes, he is just, but he’s also God, and he’s capable of disciplining someone to avoid future suffering. In the second part of the episode (07:51-17:22), the guys discuss Job’s speech in Chapter 28. This chapter is all about God’s divine wisdom. Job talks about humans as creative and ingenious, but they also can’t fully access God’s wisdom or understand his ways. In the next part of the episode (17:43-30:41), Tim and Jon talk about God’s response to Job’s accusations. God basically gives Job a virtual tour of the universe, describing all of the incredible things that he has created. We see here that Job doesn’t really have the vantage point by which to accuse God. In the next part of the episode (31:04-46:20), the guys talk about the Behemoth and the Leviathan, ancient creatures that God brings up during his tour of the universe. Why would the author choose to include this? We can see that even in God’s good world, there can be suffering and tragedy only because the world is a raw and wild place. In the final part of the episode (46:47-59:11), the guys talk about Job’s repentance and humility before God at the end of the book. Job’s story teaches us that God doesn’t always run the world on the principle of just recompense. Video: This episode is designed to accompany our video on the book of Job. You can view it on our youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswSg2ohqmA Scripture References: Job Psalm 74 Isaiah 27 Revelation 12 Show Music: Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn Music Blue Skies by Unwritten Stories Flooded Meadows by Unwritten Stories

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

Welcome to the Bible Project Podcast. I'm John, and I'm going to be talking with Tim. We're going to discuss the book of Job. This is our third and final conversation on this book. And if you haven't listened to first two, I'd highly recommend it. First, we're going to talk about Ella Hugh, a new character that seems to pop up out of nowhere. There's a surprise friend named Ella Hugh, who wasn't there with the three friends. It's really interesting. He's just there. He just starts speaking up.

Then we talk about chapter 28 and Job, how this chapter stands apart from the rest of Job's speeches and how it gives us a clue as to what the point of this entire book is. Where can humans find wisdom? They can go under the earth and find gold and jewels. Can humans just go get understanding and wisdom? Then finally, we talk about the final showdown, God responds to Job's accusations of being

unjust and unfair. I am intimately aware of the macrocosmos things that you've never even conceived of. I'm intimately familiar with every part of the natural world that you thought you knew about. Maybe you'd like to run the universe for a day according to your vision of how I ought to do it and you'll find it impossible. And by the way, the world is a raw and wild place, good and ordered but still dangerous. I hope you enjoy this final conversation on Job. Here we go. I love his mind to bend the back You were just a little bit more What's interesting is that the book doesn't just have

the three friends and joke that cycle. There's some extra pieces. There's some extra pieces. There's a surprise friend named Ella Hugh who wasn't there with the three friends. He's like, am I late to the intervention? He totally. It's really friends. He's like, am I late to the intervention? He told me. It's really interesting.

He's just there. He just starts speaking up at the beginning of chapter 32, and he's presented as a young man. And what we're told is that he was angry with Job for declaring himself to be in the right rather than God. But he was also angry at the friends because they didn't find any way to refute Job and yet they had declared him to be guilty, even though they couldn't, they had no evidence. So he speaks up and dude, he is long-winded. up and dude, he is long winded. You know, the longest. He's five chapters. 32, 33, 34, six chapters. 36, 37. Six, it's a long speed. And essentially, he reaffirms the God is just.

He reaffirms that God always runs the universe according to the strict principle of justice. But he introduces a nuance to say, listen, God might, in his justice, cause suffering to somebody ahead of time to shape their character in such a way that they'll become people who do the right thing in the future, So that they'll avoid future suffering and hardship. Innovative move. What's that? It's an innovative move. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it's processing. Or God, He tells a story about God might send a bad dream and cause someone to suffer in their sleep. So that when they wake up, they make a good decision. Or he says somebody, God might allow somebody to get really sick, so they have a deathbed conversion, and then they live the rest of their life, because they got religion, and they'll avoid hardship. His point is that the friends don't have a nuance enough approach, and that there are sometimes where it really does appear

that someone suffers and they didn't do anything. But he just says there could be a bigger set of reasons that you don't immediately know. But what he does think Job is wrong in doing is accusing God of incompetence or being cruel based off of his own circumstances. Okay, so let's recap. Friends think you must have done something wrong. Job thinks. I didn't do anything wrong. I don't know what's going on. He even goes as far as to accuse God. And then Ella Hugh shows up and he takes a new tact, which is, okay, you haven't done anything wrong. We can't prove that. But we know God's just, so perhaps this is to protect you, or to prepare you for something that's going to happen. Yeah, it's a form of discipline.

It's a form of discipline. A character shaping. So even though you haven't done something wrong, God could still prepare you to make you a ratter person. To avoid future sin that will bring God's judgment on you. Here's what's interesting is that's not too far off from what we were presented with at the beginning of the story, right? In a way because Hassatan, his point was look you don't know of Job, really loves you or not. Sure, sure.

You just know that he likes getting hooked up. That's all we know for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we need to find out if he really actually loves you and is righteous. And so in a way, they are preemptively disciplining Job to prepare him for, well, maybe not to prepare him for the righteousness, but the testimony to see if he really does have it. So there's a similarity it seems like. Yeah, the similarity is that there might be a broader set of reasons that you don't know that would actually show God to

still be just in allowing this to take place. He assigns those as shaping your character in the present to avoid sin in the future. He gives it pretty concrete, for example. But he's opening the window to a greater complexity than the three friends did. This is John Walton's summary. Okay. He says, without Ellahu's voice, readers might have a tendency to idealize Job, or conclude that his response to his suffering was impeccable. In light of Elehu's rebuke of Job's self-righteousness, however, were warned against thinking that

our suffering by nature constitutes a challenge to God's integrity. But despite that valid point of Elohim's critique, Elohim's own account of God's justice ultimately fails like that of the friends. Because it says that there is always some concrete reason that suffering is always in connection to some concrete act of sin. Whether it has happened yet or not. Correct. So that's an interesting addition.

Why did that point need to be made? That's just an interesting feature of Job. And there's one more thing before there's God. And that's chapter 28. Chapter 28 is just really interesting. Before Chapter 27 there's a unique introduction right in the middle of Job's speech, Chapter 27 begins, and Job continued, and you're like, well, right, I knew he was speaking already anyway. And then you read chapter 27, then in chapter 28, the tone, the shifts, the speaking voice, kind of shifts, the topic, it's a new poem.

Then you go to chapter 29 and it says, end job picked up or continued as discourse again. So there's some markers there in the story that chapter 28, it's kind of set apart in some way. And it doesn't actually sound. It's like it's Job talking. Yeah. So there are many readers and scholars who think that this is the narrator's, it's called, it's like an interludelude where it's the narrator giving his read on

The dialogue of Job and his friends and it is it is a remarkable poem. It just describes How humans are so creative and ingenious They can figure out almost anything here on planet earth So the examples that it gives here are the internet mining computer chips Micro processors Satellites No, what you get the first example the example it gives is of mining for precious jewels. It's this whole long elaborate poem about, humans can go down to the deep recesses of the

earth and find jewels and gold. They can get to places where no eagle has ever seen. Where no lion could ever have access to. Humans can tunnel through rocks, searching out the underground rivers. It's just this awesome poem. That's cool. About the creativity. Yeah. The human problem is this. Yes. And their ability to do something you would never think is possible. Yeah. Tunnel down into the earth. Yeah, no other animals are doing that for gems. That's right. And then it says, even so, where can humans find wisdom? They can go under the earth and find gold and jewels,

but where do humans find wisdom? Can humans just go get understanding and wisdom? Hochma. And then the poem goes on, humans can't comprehend wisdom. It's actually not found in the land of the living. The deep says, yeah, I don't know where wisdom is. And the sea says, yeah. The deep referring to.

The deep abyss under the earth. Okay. And the cosmology, it's the land is floating on waters. It's supported by pillars. So the deep recesses under the earth of water say, I don't know where wisdom is, and the ocean depths say, we don't know where it is. You can't go by wisdom at the market.

You can sell the most valuable jewels ever. So where then? Do you get hochma? It's hidden from every living thing. Even death says, yeah, we've only heard a rumor about wisdom. Duh! Death in the grave say, we've only heard a rumor.

God is the one who knows the way. He alone knows where Huchma lives. He sees all the earth, everything under heaven. In fact, when he brought his Proverbs, when he brought order, when he measured out the waters, when he set a path for the wind and the thunderstorms, he looked at wisdom and used it to make the world. And he said, the fear of the Lord is hochma to shun evil as understanding. It's just so strange. But set right here like a sore thumb in the middle of the

dialogues, it becomes a commentary on all of the agitated, arguing and wrangling and logic of the friends. What they're trying to sort out is something that actually is inaccessible to them. This higher order of Hochman, that God, but God has it, and human beings can humble themselves before it. It's very, anyway, chapter 28 is really remarkable. So what do you think the significance of that is we get a window into... It's a preview of God's answer later in the book. And it's a window into the view the author wants you to adopt, I think, which is to say,

oh, yeah, this strict principle of micromanaged recompense, that the friends think is how the world works, that Job thinks how the world ought to work is not actually how God runs the world. So the whole mining thing was just a setup. We can go find a lot of stuff. Yeah. We can't go find wisdom. We can't find wisdom. Dogs can't learn algebra. And we can't mind for wisdom. Human beings are not in a position to have a divine vantage point, to declare whether God is just or unjust by how he runs the universe. So there's some larity with that too, the knowledge of the true, the knowledge of good and evil,

where we don't have the ability to define good and evil. It takes a certain amount of wisdom to really discern. It's just, we can't mind, there's no way we can get it if we want our own innovative efforts. It's like a dog learning algebra. Yeah, that's interesting. The knowledge of good and evil is wisdom vocabulary. Yeah, you know.

And the woman says in the garden, she saw the trees looked beautiful of the eyes, was good for food and could make one wise. That's what the narrative says. That's her wise, yeah. And so she takes some and eats it from it. She wants wisdom. It seems like a very Hebrew thing to say like, can I go to the heavens and find it? No.

So like remember, we were just talking about Psalm 139. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, where can I, yeah, where can I escape from God? Right. I go to the heavens, you're there. I go to the deep. You're there. And it's the same word, right? The deep. So I go below the earth. You're there.

Yeah. I go up in the sky You're there and then in Deuteronomy Yeah, don't say where's the Torah? Yeah, it's not up in heaven. Yeah, it's not down Yeah, that's it's just kind of a Hebrew way of thinking it is. Well, it's their cosmology Like if I was gonna look for something and it seems like Far far away. How far away could it be? Well maybe it's up in the skies. Up in the skies.

The highest of the skies and you're like, nope, nope, not up there. Or it's under the earth. Under the earth below in the depths. Nope, cosmic waters under the earth. It's just an interesting, you just don't talk like that. No, we might say like I searched high and low. Search high and low.

That's true. I searched near. I went near and far. I mean, those are fixed things. They're actually not that common. Yeah. But I just, yeah, I just was realizing I've been seeing that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Over and over. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a fixed thing. So with wisdom, it's like, there's this. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a fixed saying so So with wisdom it's like There's this idea he's saying to really understand How this works? Where are you gonna get that? Like how far are you gonna have to go? There's no distance that he can think of because the furthest place up high in the skies

It's not up there the furthest place below the earth not there in the skies, it's not up there. The furthest place below the earth, not there, in the depths of the ocean, not there. Okay, well maybe if you die and you get to another reality, maybe it's there. And death and the grave say, yeah, we've heard a rumor about, Hoffma. God knows where it is because it's the means Oh, ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho- But it's saying the universe isn't absolute chaos. Yeah. From their perspective, it's ordered. Like there is an order. Yeah.

It is intelligible. And the book of Proverbs is generally true. Like it generally works. But if you wanted to find the wisdom that explains all of the times that Proverbs didn't work out. Right. And why that happened That's you're not gonna find that in the creative universe. It's not accessible to humans It's accessible only to God. That's the point of this poem and then the line is he said to humanity

To fear the Lord that's Hochma and to shun evil that's understanding So they would now we're back to the human order of wisdom, the hochma that is accessible and that does work for humans is to trust through the Lord and do the right thing. Then eventually Job gets his wish. Yeah. Showcase showdown. In chapter 38, God appears. God shows up and speaks to Job out of the whirlwind out of the storm. And it's a pretty intense address got opens by saying, who is this that darkens my counsel and

speaks without knowledge? Get ready. Let's have this showdown that you've been asking for a job. It's pretty intense. Yeah. So the intensity is responding to jobbs. If I was got that point back, I'd get a job. But yeah. And said he's like, who darkens my counsel? Yeah. Well, right. And so it's a set up of the drama.

Because job, yes, we're sympathized with him. But jobbs has also lodged in the literary courtroom of the book. Yeah. Some large claims. If you do that to a king, he's going to. Yeah. OK.

Based off of your perspective and circumstances, you have made these claims. So after that intimidating opening, what God doesn't do is just say, like, you're wrong, you're stupid. It's long said speeches. And the first one in chapters 38 and 39 is what I call a virtual tour of the universe on a large and a small scale. So it's almost a tour through the cosmos as envisioned by Genesis 1, the three-tiered. So where were you when I laid

the earth's foundations and set the pillars and the footings that keep the land from sinking into the watery abyss? And then it goes, but what's interesting is, he's a question about time, where were you in the primeval past? Were you there? But also, where were you? The way the universe is described here doesn't draw any distinction between God's past creation and God's present maintenance and order and sustaining. So he goes, where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? But also, who shut up the sea behind doors and who fixed limits for it, like on the beaches and the oceans. Why does the sea just stop right there?

Have you ever given orders to the morning light or shown the dawn its place that it might take the earth by its edges and shake the wicked out the image of that the light might come and remove all the wicked people like shaking a rug of roaches or ants or something like that. Have you ever done that joke? You seem to think that that's how I ought to make things work. Have you ever journeyed to the deep seas and see the springs? Where does light live? It's just, you know, just like a lot. So clearly the implication is, or Job to say. We can totally update this, now, and be like, yeah. Where were you when? Yeah, the cosmic radiation was cooling. Yeah. And explain to me why atoms don't seem to

Yeah, and explain to me why atoms don't seem to Exist until you observe them Yeah, just like all the like just mysteries of quantum physics. Yeah, did you ever see Pangaea? Why why is light a particle in a wave? Job, explain to me that explain the butterfly effect so. And by the way, Job, what's gravity? So the obvious implication of all those questions, the answer to them is, no, I was not there. I don't know the answer to any of these questions. No, I don't have your vantage point, God. So that's on like a macro level. Then God starts talking about, have you ever seen a mountain goat give birth?

My favorite is a little essay on wild donkey. Are you the one who controls wild donkey? Cause he's just cruising the wastelands, the salt flats, and he laughs at the commotion in the town because he's not here in the shout of any driver. He ranges the hills looking for any green thing. It's like this picture of a wild donkey. Yeah. Just free, dirty, scrappy, but why does he bring up the donkey? Wild ox. What's the point with the wild ox? Let's keep just keep you gotta get the effect all right wild huge wild ox Can you hold him can you tie a tie him up to a plow and help you with your garden or the the ostrich?

So he's kind of saying like you've domesticated animals and so you think you've got a handle on things. But there's a lot more, there's some wild animals out there that you don't have a handle on. You don't have a perspective, the least bit of perspective on the macro cosmos. And even here, on the land.

You can't control everything. What do you know about mountain goats and their feeding patterns and lions and do you control wild donkey or wild ox and the ostrich? The ostrich. Do you give the horse at strength and here it's this beautiful description of a horse revving up and galloping into battle, like a war horse. And do you really control that thing? You can ride on it when it's in the frenzy of battle, but does the hawk take flight by your hochma, by your wisdom. Does the eagle soar at your command? Yeah. So again, the point is, oh, there's all of this detail.

And there's all of these creatures who just live free and have their whole lives. And God's intimately aware of every detail of their existence. And they're not for a second under Job's control. God's intimately aware of every detail of their existence. And they're not for a second under Job's control, and he has a clue about their habits or their life at all. I saw this article that I think will totally fit that same vein, but a little bit more modern.

See if I can find it. Yeah, there's this website called BabylonB.com. It's like a Christian, the onion. You're familiar with the onion. It's like a Christian version of the onion. This article is called, What has God ever done for me? Ask man breathing air. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Sources confirmed Tuesday that local free thinker Jared Olson called into question the absurd idea that God has ever done anything for him while in

Hailing Oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide in a complex process will be on his mind's capability to understand it in entirety. It goes on the idea of quote-unquote God is really just holding us back Olson of P, as the membrane across his larynx vibrated to modulate the flow of air from his lungs, making the speech audible to the people listening, whose intricate ear structures then instantly transform the visible sound waves into abstract thought in their brains nervous to chew. Oh, that's brilliant. It's pretty good. It's kind of got the same effect.

So there's also another motif that appears a couple times. It's getting at this question of, okay, so if God's attentive to all this detail, so that sweeps out from under a job, His claim to have a vantage point by which to accuse God of being incompetent. But then there's also a couple of things like there's a question about rain patterns. He says, who cut the channel for

the rain to water the land where no human lives? A whole desert with nobody in it gets satisfied with rain and sprouts with grass. So think in terms of Deuteronomy like rain and sprouts with grass. So think in terms of Deuteronomy, like rain and abundance and agriculture, those are all signs of God's favor and blessing because you're faithful. But apparently God takes pleasure in sending rain and making abundant a desolate wasteland that no human will ever even see just full of beauty and abundance be great farming.

So that little vignette raises the question of like oh so it's not even just the universe isn't just about justice it's like God enjoys beauty and surprofluous of generosity. Like where does that fit in your system for how God runs the world? Who deserved that? Yeah, just God just for the sheer pleasure of making a beautiful meadow. It kind of has the effect of saying like this isn't all about you. Yeah, yeah, that's yes. Yeah, the moral fortunes of humans isn't all about you. Yeah, that's... Yes. The moral fortunes of humans isn't the only story going on in the world. That's interesting.

That is. But it is an important story. Like we know from Genesis one and two that humans being in the image of God and ruling on God's behalf is a very, very central, that's central to the story of creation. But then you should, I guess, you have to step back and go,

but we're not the center of the universe. And we're not, yes, the God is attentive to... God's doing things outside of our understanding. And we can see that in this very simple illustration of the desert. But who knows what else? Yes. I mean, who knows? Exactly.

Yeah. And we're just one piece of that. That's right. I love it that there's a book of the Bible making that point. Yeah. It is. I remember the first time, I don't remember how old I was, when I really grasped the reality of other planets.

And I just kept thinking about, there's a planet where there's some like, I kept thinking, I would think of tumbleweed blowing, which of course, I don't know, not only planets we know of, or vegetation. But, you know, in my imagination, tumbleweed blowing along on a rocky desert, it's just happening right now. There's just a whole planet with its own system of, I guess you call it a ecosystem of living creatures. But I just remember that so when that first, that idea first captured my imagination.

An alien landscape. No human will, has ever, nor likely will ever sit foot there, but it just exists in beauty and complexity. There's entire galaxies. And now, yes, that's, now, as an adult, it's like. It was, Kevin Kelly, when I was at Q, a couple of weeks ago, he showed the slide of a bunch of galaxies, and he's, and you know what are those beautiful... Yeah, Hubble.

Hubble. Telescope photos. And he said, this, this image, if you looked up in the sky, would be about the size of your thumb. So that's how much space we're talking about magnified. And it's in, and in it you see hundreds and hundreds of these galaxies. And one of those galaxies on one of those planets is a beautiful terrain with a beautiful weather system. And something majestic happening. some sunset, some, and we'll never see it. And God's delighting in it. Yeah, yeah, it's completely apart from the story of God and humanity.

And that, yeah, that's a part of God's world that he's attentive to and that factors into God's that he's attentive to, and that factors into God's decision-making. That's the point. Right. So good. On large scale and small, even areas that I think for the animals, that humans think they have some control over a knowledge of, you know, just the biological world is itself of ultimately a mystery.

So that's the first speech. It's the virtual tour of the macro and micro cosmos. And Joe Bansers, he says in chapter 40, wow, I'm really unworthy. How can I respond? I spoke twice, but I have no answer. I put my hand over my mouth. He recognizes his folly. He doesn't say, I'm sorry for what I said. He just says, you're

right, I overstep my bound. So what happens next is in chapter 40 God says, maybe you would like to run the universe for a day, according to the principle you think I out to run the universe by. And he says, I'm putting your toddler in charge of the house. Totally. And so basically, he says, he says, Job, you just tell me how you would micromanage the universe according to the strict principle of justice for every human action 24, 7. Tell me what that universe looks like, Job. He says, look at every proud man and bring him low, crush the wicked right in the moment

where they stand, bury them in the dust, then I'll admit to you that your right hand can bring deliverance. So great. Let's see what you got, Joe. Yeah, it's okay. You tell me. And then just there's no response. And where he goes next is one of the most well-known parts of

Job. God goes on to then describe to wild, huge creatures in God's good world that he's quite proud of. One is called behemoth and then the second one is called Leviathan, it's in chapter 41. And then the second one is called Leviathan, it's in chapter 41. And God takes great pride in describing the majesty and strength and anatomy of these creatures. So Behemoth lives in the rivers and marshes and is gigantic and has thick bones and... Tail like cedar. Tail like a cedar. Sounds like a dinosaur.

Yeah, it's interesting. So throughout the history of interpretation, there's been lots of proposals as to what these creatures are. The one that's fixed in the modern imagination was first made. I have a note here in 1663, by Samuel Borshar, who wrote a huge volume called the Hirtozoa con, the Holy Zoology Manual. It's on Google Books.

I looked it up actually. Is there any images in there? No, no. But it's essentially a, it's a biblical encyclopedia of every animal mentioned in the Bible. And all of the biblical description of every animal mentioned in the Bible matched with his own observations of all those animals that he went and traveled to the Middle East to go see in their natural habitats. What a crazy guy.

But he did this. And he produced the hitter-o-zo-icon. See, was the first one to identify behemoths with the hippopotamus, 1663. Hippopotamus does not have a tail like a cedar. Exactly. That's the only thing that doesn't fit the description. So, you either say poetic license. I mean, it's got like a tiny little tail.

Yeah, it's not very impressive. It's like... Totally. So, I mean, here's what you can do. You can say, it's not trying to correspond to any known creature. It's taking a known creature. Well, here's the thing. We know that many creatures have gone extinct, right?

We know that many large mammals have been killed off by humans. But we're only, this book's only 2,500 years old. Yeah. Which is old. That's old. But. You don't think 2000 years ago, 25 years ago, we were killing off large mammals. Of course we were. But the question is, is there a large mammal that's going to stink, extinct in the last 25-hundred years within the Middle East. That we've dug up and found false words. That we have no idea, that we have no.

Well, we don't know. Ha-ha-ha-ha. I mean, we just found a new dinosaur last week. Okay, yeah, sure, but dinosaurs were talking, I mean, humans were no, no, we're ever around. Right, I'm just saying, we're always finding new things. Yeah. So, you know, and I'm sorry, we should acknowledge that there's an extinct animal.

Okay. Or maybe even an animal in their just mythologies because it was a extinct 10,000 years ago. All right, and they found the fossil remains and stories were retained about this. I think, I think they found like 10,000 years ago. All right, and they found the fossil remains and stories are retained about this. I think they found like 10,000 years ago, I'm gonna get this wrong, but something like 90% of large mammals on the planet were killed off. 10,000 years ago. Hmm, so yeah, early humans were. Early humans were brutal on the scene.

The most likely explanation is as we began as humans to learn how to hunt really well. They just went crazy. We just took out all the animals. Yeah. I mean, the ostrich is one of the remaining large birds. There were tons of different large birds. Those were tasty large birds.

Apparently. Apparently. Apparently. And their eggs. And their eggs. So I'm sure, think buffalo. Within recent, in terms of American history, I mean, there were millions and millions of buffalo. There was these giant ground sloths.

These huge, the size of bears. But they were sloths. Wow. Yeah, they didn't stand it. They didn't stand it. Yeah. anyways. So, because it wouldn't surprise me if there was an animal in this. Yeah, yeah.

The other option is that it's some mix between real and mythological creature. Like maybe what unicorns are in the modern imagination of it's a horse, but it's a horse. Yeah, but why would we, why would we, if we were making this story today, have God like boast about the unicorn? A unicorn. We're like, uh, that's not a real one, God. Yeah, that's right. It's a solid point.

I'm going to go with extinct animal. So behemoth can fit in what you're describing. Leviathan's a little trickier because we know more about this word and the background of this creature. Leviathan is a known mythological creature in Israel's imagination. In Psalm 74, Leviathan is a seven-headed beast that's a symbol of the chaotic darkness and void of Genesis 1, verse 2, that God tamed and brought order to. So this was a motif in Canaanite creation cosmologies of God conquering the chaos and bringing order. And that motif is not present in Genesis 1, God just speaks and brings order. But there is a tradition of that in Psalm 74 where God creates by defeating the seven-headed

Leviathan. And Psalm 74? Yeah, Psalm 74. He defeats a seven-headed Lephiocon? Yeah, you never heard of such a thing. Come on, Psalm 74. That's in my Bible? Oh, yeah. Well, actually, so it's a poem about

lamenting the destruction of the temple. God handed over the temple to the pagans to destroy it. Your foes have run into the temple with axes and hatchets to chop it down. Verse 9, we're given no signs from God. How long will the enemy do this? Chaos has unleashed on Jerusalem. But the poet says, verse 12, God is my king. From long ago, he brings salvation on the earth.

You know, you God, you were the one who split open the sea by your power, and you broke the heads of the sea monster in the waters. It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave it as food to the deserts. The day is yours, yours is the night, you establish the sun and man's creation. He's retelling the story of God creating the world in light of one. So splitting open the sea was part of the creative. Separating the waters. And then he broke the heads of the... Leviathan.

He defeated chaos. Leviathan is a... Oh, it's a simple chaos. It's a symbol of the chaotic dark wasteland. So in the mythology, it's this multiple headed creature that lived in the water? Yeah, correct. And this creature is drawn and appears in iconography and Babylonian mythology.

Leviathan appears in Canaanite, mythological text. So there you go, Psalm 74. It's just using the imagery available in the cultural imagination to retell the story of creation as God conquering the chaos monster. Isaiah 27, when Isaiah thinks of God defeating evil in the future, he talks about God swinging his sword against Leviathan. Where are we? Sorry, where is that? Isaiah chapter 27, verse 1. And these are images picked up in the New Testament in the book of Revelation about God

defeating the dragon. Actually, all the way back to the book of Job in the Septuagint translation. So pre-Christian Jews translating Job into Greek, they translated Leviathan right here in Job as dracon, the Greek word for dragon. And so you could say, some of it kind of sounds like a crocodile. That's what Samuel Borschart thought in this hit

Rhozoic on, but then in verses, Job 41, verses 18 to 21, this guy's breathing fire. He has his sneezes throw lightning and fire streams from his mouth and his breath sets cold ablaze. So we're clearly in the realm of seven headed mythological fire-breathing dragons. There's gotta be people who think dragons actually existed. Or so many.

Or something that gave rise to dragons in the human imagination, something that was close enough. So that, okay, now we've thoroughly, we spent a lot of time on those guys. So, what's their purpose in God bringing them up? So that we could discuss them in the twig for centuries. But the purpose in God bringing them up is what he says is, he says, look at behemoth, look at how strong he is, I made him along with you.

It's what he says. Look at behemoth, I made him along with you. That's what he says. Look at Behemoth. I made him just like I made you. And then when he gets to Leviathan, he says, well, he speaks to you with gentle words. Will he make an agreement with you and you can take him as your slave for life? Are you going to make a pet of Leviathan just like you would a bird and put a leash on him for your little girls? I mean, it's so ridiculous. So, and if you lay a hand on him, you're done. So, I think this is the point is God's world is very good. It's

ordered. There's order to it. But there are realities in God's good world that will eat you alive and not even think about it. And they're not evil. Leviathan isn't evil. Here, he's just... He's just a misunderstood c-dragon. He's wild. So whether he's an actual forgotten monster or he's a symbol for the unpredictable chaotic elements that still exist in God's good world, the point is God's world is ordered, but it's still wild and dangerous. The point is that, is the world orders good? Is it a good place for humans to live?

Yes. But Leviathan will eat you in a second. And God was proud of it. He's proud of this thing anyway. Yeah, he wants to show him that. But it could, but it'll take you out. Yeah, I won't fail to speak of his limbs in his outer coat.

His back has rows of shields. So just because God, just because God makes something that's dangerous to humans, doesn't mean it's not good. It's this point there. Yes, the world is still a dangerous place for humans. And that doesn't mean it's not good. Leviathan can unleash hell on your life. And it's not evil. God's not angry at you. Yeah. You just, you just messing with the crack. You just, you just metal Leviathan and it ruined your life. Yeah. These creatures existing

in God's world, the whole point is that there can be suffering and tragedy that results for no reason except that the world is still at a raw and wild place as we experience it. There's no eschatology here of, well, but one day Leviathan will be done away with, and it's just, that's the world as we know it. The Leviathan will lay down with the lamb. Yeah, right. and it's just that's the world as we know it. The Leviathan will lay down with the Lamb. Yeah, right. That's Isaiah.

No, Isaiah is God will crush Leviathan and remove him completely from God's good world. And this is the end of God's speech, this Leviathan. So to think of the flow of the God's speech is, I am intimately aware of the macrocosmos things that you've never even conceived of. I'm intimately familiar with every part of the natural world that you thought you knew about. Maybe you'd like to run the universe for a day according to your vision of how I ought to do it, and you'll find it impossible. And by the way, the world is a raw and wild place, good and ordered, but still dangerous.

Yeah, that's it. And that's what God has to say. Yeah, it's not what you would have expected him to say. No. No. No. Which is why this book arrests the imaginations of people throughout history. Such an amazing book. So, Job's response.

Job replied to the Lord, chapter 42. I know that you can do all things. The virtual tour is very much impressed, Job. No plan of yours can be thwarted. You know, God said earlier, who is this obscure as my counsel? Who is this who speaks of things that I don't understand? So Job says, all right, my ears had heard of you. I thought I understood how you worked, but now I see you. He's had a full conversion of his imagination, a humbling of his imagination. Verse six is notoriously difficult to translate.

Because it's one of those words, it's not used very often. It's, and it uses the words in a really unique way. So, he says first, is something to the effect of, therefore I reject. Literally, I, I reject. And the translation's different,

I reject myself, or NIV has, I despise myself, or some interpreters think I reject the accusations I made, but the point is he's taking back and there's something that he claimed that he now rejects. And then he says, I repent in dust and ashes, or something to the effect of, I have changed my mind, where I've changed my posture, whatever's happening, however exactly he translated, that's a whole rabbit hole in and of itself. The point is that he's declaring a change of mind

and heart, he chooses humility before God. But it's not the end of the book. The book ends with an epilogue where God says to the friends, I'm angry with you guys. God says he's angry at the friends because you have not spoken what is right about me. Like my servant Job has spoken rightly about me. Which forces you to be like, wait a minute.

Okay, I get it for the friends. Right? They, their theology was way too black and white and simplistic. But what does it mean that Joves spoke rightly? Can't be, can't, that can't refer to everything he said. Right. Otherwise, there would have been a showdown. Yeah. But apparently there are some things that Joves did say that are right, namely that God doesn't always run the universe on the principle of just recompense because he's blameless, he's innocent, and he suffered and God allowed it. And that's right. God acknowledges that that's right. So then Job goes and offers sacrifices to Aton for the folly and sin of the friends.

And then it was nice of him. Then the Lord made Job prosperous again, restoring twice as much as he had before. And then it goes on to list all of the numbers of camels and oxen and children, names their children and how the daughters were the most beautiful in the ancient world and that he lived 140 years and he died full of good years. To me this is another one of these most interesting things because the whole point then does it bring you all the way back to the beginning and wondering well wait I thought the whole point then does it bring you all the way back to the beginning and wondering,

well wait, I thought the whole point was for Job to maintain his integrity despite all this loss. But then at the end, he receives them all back again. But you interpret the reward differently now, because the reward you realize isn't owed to Job, but it is simply God's gift to Job. You could have not done it, and you could have done it. We now know how God runs the universe. You could have done it. You could have not done it.

And we interpret this not through recompense. Job earned this. We interpret it now as in God's wisdom and generosity. He gifts Job with abundance and joy once again. And that's how they look at it. And so back to the very beginning of a conversation. The point of this is so that job, he doesn't get an answer. He never gets an answer. And what we thought was going on at the beginning of the story,

which that was God was just testing him, doesn't seem to be the full story. At the end, we're asked to kind of like Job, just realize, whoa, there's a way we're going on in the created universe than I could ever try to Manage or comprehend and it's also a place That doesn't fit my neat categories of good and evil Because I would look at that Leviathan and I would say that thing's evil. Yeah, yeah, and God sitting here going actually I'm pretty stoked on that thing

Yeah, don't mess with it. Yeah, so it's just like breaking my down my categories and then by the end I just have to go Okay, I thought of myself too highly in the in my ability to understand Why things work and I'm gonna trust you and then Joe when he gets that place he gets hooked up again. But it's not, doesn't seem like a Joel Osteen kind of hook up or it's like a... No. Do the right thing, God's gonna tell us it will. No, just the fact that he went through what he went through shatters that. Right.

Parodyne. Yeah. So now his prosperity has no direct correlation to his righteousness. It's just a gift. Which the critic from Ecclesiastes would say, yeah, sometimes you get that. But sometimes you don't. And enjoy it. And enjoy it when you get it.

But sometimes you don't get it. And then Proverbs says, so that's why you just do the right thing and you fear the Lord and shun evil Because that's the right thing to do. I mean holistically from all three books You can kind of put this portrait together of like fear the Lord be wise do the right thing It's not always gonna bring success and that's gonna force you to reckon with some pretty humbling hard hard things about who you are in the kind of world you're living in. But wisdom is also reaching a place of humility before God and not demanding that he offer you an explanation for why things happen the way they do, as if you could understand it in the first place, even if he did offer you an explanation. So fear the Lord and keep His commandments. At the end, all three books do work together to offer a really mature portrait of the good

life and the wise life. My hunch is that it's a portrait that at least some people in the modern world will struggle because I think there is something about... We wanna understand things. Yeah, humans, we've made so many exponential leaps in our understanding of the universe just in the last half a millennia, that... Half a century.

Half a century, much less the last, sorry, I had some reason I just thought the way the printing press Yeah. Got things going, five years going. That was huge. But then of course in the last half century. So I think there is this mindset of like, oh no, I think we're probably going to figure this thing out in not very long. And that's interesting. I don't quite know what to do with that tension because we can. But then the question of,

does that get us over our skis, and get us thinking much too highly of ourselves, because the same people who are plunking away at math equations figuring out the physical constants, nanoseconds after the Big Bang, also like struggle to be faithful to their spouses and like, you know what I mean? Like, they just like everybody else are caught. You better house smart we are.

In the moral dilemmas and making stupid decisions and drinking too much. So like, there's no human that isn't caught in the web of the moral challenge that we all find ourselves in. Except for Job. Yeah. Yeah. So in the biblical vision, our moral choices are as much a part of our understanding of the world as our ability to do math or produce technology.

Is your ability to have integrity? So in that sense, nothing's really changed for humanity. That's true. Yep, so for Proverbs, it's about wisdom. I feel like there was a word for Ecclesiastes I was gloving onto that's escaping me now. Chance is one thing with a randomness. Death, time and chance. Death time and chance, meaningless. But with a job, humility seems to be the key point.

Right? I think that's right. That the posture of humility allows you to find peace. Find peace. So when we think of this old weathered man who has peace, yeah, but he's still as passion and life, but he just doesn't get rattled. And he really believes that he doesn't have to worry, even though he knows that doesn't mean everything is going to be awesome even though he knows that doesn't mean everything is gonna be awesome. Like there's that contradiction. Yes, he actually knows.

Like you should be on edge because at any moment, God might like, the way with another Ceton, and be like, can I just do it? Round two with Joe. Like he, but instead it's to a place where it, it doesn't matter what's thrown at me. I understand my place and I'm completely at peace and I'm ready for it. That's certainly what God is trying to lead Job to in the speeches. Yeah, which leads back to that comment we made. The meaning of the book is not found in the

heavenly scene at the beginning. Really, the culmination of the book are the God's speeches that lead Job to his humbling and repentance at the end. That's what this is about. [♪ music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background,

the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background,

the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background,

the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, the music playing in background, So that wraps up Tim and I's conversation on the book of Job for this podcast. We used this conversation to then write a script and make an animated short film that we're

putting up on YouTube. YouTube.com slash the Bible project. You can watch all our videos there. We're really proud of them. You can also go to our website, join the Bibleibletproject.com, and download our videos for free. We have some study guides available for some of the videos, we're trying to make more. You could also download other resources there as well. Up next on the podcast will be a conversation on the Holy Spirit, which, man, it's so good.

We just actually had the conversation about two days ago. I'm going to start editing it. It's really helpful. So looking forward to that. Say hi to us on Facebook, Facebook.com slash join the Bob Project, Twitter at Join Bob Approj and this would be a part of this. No regret lifts my head Try my best in hush, hush, little one Hush, hush, little ones in my head

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