BibleProject - Wisdom of Ecclesiastes Part 2: The "Teacher" vs. Jesus

Episode Date: July 7, 2016

Hanging out with Ecclesiastes isn’t fun. We need to be exposed to the Teacher’s words as a helpful exercise to have our illusions dismantled. His words are like a Goad (a pointy stick to get Sheep to go in the right direction). The endless march of time that results in death for everyone. Everything dies. Humans and Animals. From our point of view (under the sun) humans don’t seem to be any better than animals. We can see that all living creatures go to the dirt and we don’t have any concrete proof of what happens after that. We can’t prove that humans have any advantage over the animals. As a follower of Jesus we have a worldview based on the claim of the Apostles that Jesus raised from the dead so we see this differently than the Teacher in Ecclesiastes. Music Break More on the March of Time and death from a cosmic scale. Ecclesiastes has a whole poem about aging. We are all going towards old age and old age is miserable. Ecclesiastes also talks about chance. Life is unpredictable. Chance screws with all of us. You can’t guarantee that when you do the right thing it will work out. Death, Time and Chance Music Break The Teacher, surprisingly, still wants us to be wise. The Teacher realizes that being wise is the right thing to do. There are no guarantees but better odds. What does it mean to be overly righteous and overly wise? It is good to be righteous and strive to live an upright moral life. But when that is your sole focus and mindset and you believe you deserve things you have the wrong perspective. The one who Fears God will avoid all extremes. Being overly righteous will destroy you. There is so much good to be done in the world if you try to do it all you will destroy yourself. Music Break What are we suppose to do with all of this: Death, March of Time, Chance, Be Wise but no guarantees. Acknowledging all of this isn’t becoming an atheist or agnostic but it is the secret to enjoying life. Come to terms with your inability to control all your life circumstances. This mindset is the silver bullet for enjoying your life. Blaze Pascal "We do not rest satisfied with the present. We anticipate the future as too slow in coming, as if in order to hasten its course; or we recall the past, to stop its too rapid flight. So imprudent are we that we wander in the times which are not ours and do not think of the only one which belongs to us; and so idle are we that we dream of those times which are no more and thoughtlessly overlook that which alone exists. For the present is generally painful to us. We conceal it from our sight, because it troubles us; and, if it be delightful to us, we regret to see it pass away. We try to sustain it by the future and think of arranging matters which are not in our power, for a time which we have no certainty of reaching. Let each one examine his thoughts, and he will find them all occupied with the past and the future. We scarcely ever think of the present; and if we think of it, it is only to take light from it to arrange the future. The present is never our end. The past and the present are our means; the future alone is our end. So we never live, but we hope to live; and, as we are always preparing to be happy, it is inevitable we should never be so.” Remember to live. Music Break Life is full of things that are out of your control and don’t always make sense. Death and Chance and Time put those in your face all the time. Well then what should we do? Be wise. Fear the Lord. Be present. Enjoy what is in front of you. Don’t try to control it. Just enjoy it. It hurts you to hear these things but you need to hear it. Don’t go any further. We’ve gone far enough. Here is the conclusion of the matter. Fear God and keep his commandments. Even though this doesn’t make sense to me know I still will be held accountable to it. Justice will come. Life won’t always be shrouded in Hevel. One day the fog will be lifted. The teacher is talking about "life under the sun” or our metaphor “life in the fog”. Life still has a meaning long into the future even amidst my inability to see it in the present.

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

As you read through the book of Ecclesiastes, you're letting the teacher dismantle your perspective about reality, and it isn't pleasant. At the conclusion of the book, the author says about the teacher, the teacher's words are like a goad at the end of a shepherd's staff. Sometimes they would sharpen it to a point. It's basically saying it's like a sharp pointy stick and he's jabbing you. Why read a book like this? Why put it in the Bible?

The whole reason why we're being exposed to the teacher's words is the author thinks this is really important exercise to have our illusions dismantled. In order to do this the author brings up three main points over and over. The first is death. There are moments in life here under the sun, where it's hard to see if humans are any different than animals. And death is one of those. The second somber drum he sounds is the steady march of time. What does all of our striving and energy really produce because our life is he that's here today, gone tomorrow. And finally, the great equalizer, the randomness of life itself, chance.

Death, time, and chance. Just really have a way of putting a wet blanket on your life. Admits these cruel realities, the teacher also brings a surprising, optimistic warmth. For the teacher, acknowledging our frailty or mortality, our lack of control is the silver bullet for coming to enjoy your life. There's a beauty and a gift and a goodness to things that because I cannot control them and because they're not guaranteed. And at the end of the book, the author speaks up and tells us,

we must still fear the Lord. Even though my every deed, hidden, good or evil, it may not have a guaranteed outcome in my lifetime. I am still accountable for it. The pointy, painful, and promising wisdom of ecclesiasties. Here we go. a shush, little ones in my head. So one of the main purposes of the teacher is to target and dismantle all of the ways that people try to find meaning or generate

purpose in their lives with things that ultimately can never give you meaning or purpose. That's not a very nice thing to do. No, no, it really, you almost can see this smile on his face where he's like, oh, you think your career's gonna make you happy? All right, let's talk about your career and how it's gonna give you stress and anxiety

and make you die of old age, and then you pass on all your work when you retire to people who don't care about anything you did. You find joy in, yeah, bursting people's bubbles. It does. Yeah, you think the weekend parties are gonna make you happy, you think people honoring you and giving you status.

You just isn't a guy you'd wanna to hang out with really because you'd be like oh man had such a great weekend he'd be like yeah but did it really matter does it I mean you're gonna die right you're gonna die and was it really worth the ulcers yeah and the sleepless nights and Monday always comes no matter whether you went to heat to heat or... So where when we talked about proverbs being personified, we were like, you want this person as a friend. You want to go to her and ask your questions. Yeah, right.

And it sounds like this person, like, you want to check in every once in a while. But for the most part, you're like, oh, you see him coming towards you and you're like, duck the other way. But put it on your calendar to check in. That's right. Once or twice a year, it's a reality check. Yeah, it's interesting. At the conclusion of the book, the author says about the teacher, the teacher's words are like a goad.

It's like at the end of a shepherd's staff, sometimes they would sharpen it to a point. It's basically saying it's like a sharp pointy stick and he's jabbing you with the words in these stuff. So the book itself is calling his teachings a sharp pointy stick that jabs you. It's a sock in the gut, so to speak. That's how it feels.

But the whole reason why we're being exposed to the teacher's words is the author thinks this is really important exercise to have our illusions dismantled. And so the main way, the teacher will go through all these topics, work know, work, career, relationships, pleasure, and he's gonna, he has time that results in death for everyone. It's a great poem about, like look at a river, you know, it just goes and flows out to the sea. And it never stops and the sea is never full.

The sea doesn't fill up, doesn't it? And then the mountains that generate all of the snow, that becomes the water, like the thing's been there forever. And it's gonna be there long after you. And I always think of it. In Portland, I grew up and now still live on Hawthorne Boulevard, which has become somehow like used secondhand clothing, central, central

of Portland, clothing scene. But at the top of Hawthorne, its epic is an old volcano called Mount Taber. It's one of the biggest parks in the city. And the image that comes to my mind is, think how many fashion trends Mount Taber has seen come and go over the decades, you know, of like bell bottoms and then pleated slacks. And then, you know, skinny is and then bell bottoms again, or whatever. Now it's just whatever define your own fashion.

But like Mount Taber's never changed. Like, I mean, it has in the long, long. The stream of fashion has changed, but it never fills up. Yeah. So that's this vision of human existence. It's all this flurry and activity, but the world in which we live, it's steady. It's here long before us,

and it'll be here long after we die. And so what does all of our striving and energy really produce? Because our life is hevel. It's here today, gone tomorrow. With that opening poem, then, he just has this ceaseless drum of, we're all going to die. We're all going to die. Yeah.

At some of the lines are classic and actually kind of scandalous to find them in the Bible. Hmm. So here's one from chapter three. As for humans, God tests them or examines them. So that the humans might come to see that they are like the animals. Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals, the same fate awaits them both. One dies, and so does the other.

They all have the same breath. Humans don't really have an advantage over animals because everything's hevel. They all go to the same place, from the dust and return to the dust. And then he says this, this is who knows? If the human spirit even rises upward, or the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth.

Yeah. Really dark. Right. And it throws a lot of doubt into things that we've learned about the image of God and what that there's something more, we're more than just animals. Yes, yes, that's right. That's right. Does he not have that perspective or is he just getting into a really dark place at the moment? I think it's the latter. Yeah, I think. And again, remember, the teacher's voice,

and then the teacher's voice is mediated to us through the author's voice, who really does believe humans are unique and that there is a future beyond death, but The point is that there are moments in life Here under the sun where it's hard to see if Humans are any different than animals and death is one of those you look at death and you just go man Everybody dies.

Yeah. Like, I see roadkill on the street. And then I look at a graveyard. And then I see in the graveyard the jerk, the wealthy, arrogant person, the really kind, generous man, and the woman who gave her life away to her friends. And you know, and you go, look, they all ended up dead. It's hevel. It's the great equalizer. And who knows if the human spirit rises upward?

What does he mean there? Yeah, there's been a lot of debate about this in chapter 3, verse 21. I think his point is, we can see all all living creatures animal or human go to the dirt. And we don't have any concrete proof, he says, of what happens after that. Right. So the humans have it some post mortem advantage over the possum road killer. Right. You know, he says like, who knows? You can't prove it. Yeah. I think it's what he's saying. Who knows you can't prove it. Yeah, I think that's what he's saying Yeah, so

We haven't really talked about this, you know as a follower of Jesus This isn't the last book of the Bible for me right, you know And my world my whole world is built on the claim of the apostles that Jesus rose from the dead so that Put this kind of line into a bigger context for me. And I hear that line differently than, you know, somebody, than the teacher. But I think for his point, he's just saying, look at the evidence. Where does the evidence lead you? Everybody dies. If everybody dies, regardless of what kind of life they live, what evidence do you have that humans have anything better

going for them after death? Yeah. And that's an honest, like, this honest. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because yes, he's very honest. Yeah, even if you believe in the resurrection of Jesus and the future hope for the world, that still, you can't deny, or you shouldn't deny, that you felt that same feeling before. Right. Like Like really?

Is this really true? Can we go back to the March of Time? Yeah. I don't think this is important necessarily, but I think it's interesting that we're in a time in human history where we have a perception of time that's very different than any other generation. Like we think in billions of years, which it's hard to do. I mean, I don't successfully think in billions of years,

but like. Yeah, we have these ge think in billions of years, but we have these geological and formation of galaxy like timetables. Yeah. Like we could chase back what we understand about how physics works and we can chase, we can see how all elements are moving away from each other in space and at the rate they're doing that, you rewind the clock and you get to this point where it must have all been compacted into one space. 14.5 billion years ago.

Yeah, and then they have a number based off the math. And then you could do the same thing. You can go forward billions of years and we can know in X billions of years, the sun will die, our sun will die. If the teacher understood that, I guess it would be the same sentiment. I think it would be. He wouldn't say, hey, nothing never changes. He would say, for the most part, in our existence, nothing's going to change. But then if we look at the grand scheme of things, not only are we going to die, the sun is going to

die. The universe is going to die. The universe is going to die. Even if you figure out how to live thousands of years or hundreds of thousands of years or a billion years, if somehow you figured that out, a good job, Ray Kurzweil or something, you figured it out, the sun is still going to die. At some point, this entire universe is moving at such a pace that I think physicists think that it's just gonna end with everything getting cold and just falling apart and there being no energy left. Yes, I think for the teacher, yeah, this is 2,500 years ago. So he's basing himself off of a tradition that for him was probably, you know, thousands of years old by his time too,

of observation of the natural world and how things work. Yeah, I think his point is from our limit advantage point, nature is just this kind of steady, cycling thing and compared to humans, it's just a step. Yeah, compared to humans, it's a steady, steady march of time, but what he didn't realize

is even that has an expiration date. Yes, got it. The mountains won't be here. But even think about what you just said, like modern physics does show us like galaxies form from star dust and combust. It's just like, it's like the river never fills up the ocean. The star dust just keeps recycling into galaxies.

And so on the, yes, on the like 14.5 billion year timeline, there's a beginning and there's an end or whatever, but in terms of this, the way the universe, any time within that, it's just the same stuff. Like a star, the hydrogen will all form from gravity and create a star, the star will grow. It'll start to create all these other elements in it, and then eventually it'll explode. And that star dust will turn into planets

and different things, and then another star will form, and then those will orbit around it. Like, you could actually write a Cleasy Astey as one, a version of it, and with that language and vocabulary, and still make the same point. It's like by humans, what do we? Yeah. I think it's interesting. I just always get really fascinated thinking at those timescales

Even if you don't want to think in billions of years, you just want to think in tens of thousands of years or I don't know how long it takes but these mountains that he's talking about that have always been there. Yeah That's right. They haven't always been there and Mountains are gonna get leveled out by wind and then eventually new mountains will form with new Tectonic plates slam into each other slowly over Thousands of years That's so crazy. It's totally crazy and then here we are building houses on cliffs near the ocean Where yeah, we're like hey, this is gonna last forever

It's gonna last for like another hundred years and then it's gonna fall apart. Yes. We both have young toddler boys, so we're both outside the dirt a lot, I imagine. And so I'm outside playing with my sons in the dirt, and we find a group of ants or something. Yeah. Right?

And that's my observation of them. It's like all this flurry of activity, but their ant hills decimated by my son accidentally stepping on it, you know? Or the next rainstorm. Yeah, the next rainstorm. And but from, yeah, like a G-lot from the viewpoint of the last Ice Age or whatever,

that's like our entire civilization is like that. And that's his point. That's his point. That's his point. And he says, hey, look, the mountains last forever. Little does he know they're not. And you can even say death is the great equalizer, even the mountains will die.

Yeah, that's right. And even if he was like, and the sun will be there forever, then we would go, actually, know the sun is gonna die. Yeah, which might be great. Which probably freak the teacher out. But then he would say, exactly, see my point. Yeah, fuel to his fire. You just proved me my point. Yeah.

Yeah. You'd get a long, great right now. So, so that's the first one. It makes the part of what makes the book really humbling or depressing on some read through is just he's constantly talking about death from the opening poem to the very last poem in chapter 11 going on to 12. And he has this whole poem about aging, about your final years as an aging human and how, while you're young, make the best of it because the days are coming and uses all these metaphors Where the grinders see the grinder sees and the windows don't show light anymore Your body just stops working. Yeah, he says that too makes all your years of

Youth and enjoyment feel like heaven Because those years can go on forever and you're miserable another Because those years can go on forever and you're miserable. Another thing that the teacher really enjoys bringing up, this happens. A number of times is his focus on chance, what he calls chance. So for example, this is my favorite one in chapter 9, verse 11. He says, here's something else I've seen under the sun. That's a common theme. He'll just be talking and then say, here's something else I've seen under the sun. That's a common theme. He'll just be talking and then I'll just say, here's something else I've seen.

And then he says this, the race doesn't belong to the swift or the battle to the strong. Nor does food come to the whys or welts to the brilliant or favor to the learned, but time and chance happen to them all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so well put.

So his whole point is, again, think proverbs. Yeah. Well, don't lean on your own understanding, commit your ways to the Lord, be wise. Yeah. You know? Life is too random. Yeah. There's no idea.

His whole point is you can never guarantee. Yeah. And the fact that you can't guarantee it doesn't, therefore, mean that God isn't good or that God's a jerk. It just means that God has ways of working or orchestrating things or allowing things that don't fit the proverbs equation. And so you're just gonna have to reckon with that. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a fall. So he'll run this through. He'll say, you know, there'll be a guy who works his whole career really hard.

And he gets to enjoy his wealth in his old age. but then you'll get a guy who works his whole life. And he says it's sleepless nights, anxiety and stress. Then he has to leave it all in retirement to some young person who doesn't care at all. And he's like, and what's, like they both work just as hard. So it's that glitch in the system that we've talked about already. Yeah, so like if life was fair and you took two people who worked just as hard. So it's that glitch in the system that we've talked about already. Yeah, so like if life was fair and you took two people who worked just as hard and they made the

the same right decisions that life should go the same for them both equally as well. But the reality is that life is so random, you said this guy in one direction and this guy in the right direction and they both do the right direction, and they both do the same things right. One guy could become a multi-millionaire and have the gift to enjoy it. And then another guy could end up miserable and have lost everything or have money, but it's drove him into depression. And that's not fair. Because he didn't do anything different.

That's right. That's exactly right. And again, his point, yeah, his point there is just to, again, to deconstruct your expectations and to help you reckon with how life actually is here under the sun. to reckon with how life actually is here under the sun. So death, time, and chance, just... Death, time, and chance. Really have a way of putting a wet blanket on your life. The march of time. Yes.

Everything will die. You know what I'm saying? And you have no control. Yeah. The chance thing is really like stop pretending you have control. That's really it. That's exactly right. I'm one might, uh, One might walk away from ecclesiasties going, why did I ever read Proverbs? You know, like what's the point then?

And then here the teacher just surprises you. Where on a handful of occasions, he'll come and say, you know, still though, being a wise moral person, fearing God, you should still do that, but the Bible. So he'll say, like wisdom, being wise, making wise decisions. That actually is good. Life will probably be a little bit more enjoyable before you, if you're wise.

And you can prolong your life. You're increasing your odds. You're increasing your odds. You still don't have control. No guarantees. No guarantees. But better odds. Better odds.

You're playing the odds. Yeah. So he says, you know, be wise, but don't try and stake everything on being wise. He says in chapter seven, be righteous and be a moral person with integrity, but. Don't stake everything on that. Don't stake everything on that.

Remember that verse, the way it's phrased, it almost makes it sound like he shouldn't, he's saying, don't try to be overly righteous, right? Yep, yeah, that's it. Yes. And you're like overly righteous. Yeah, don't try to be overly righteous, right? Yep, that's it. Yes. And you're like, overly righteous. Yeah, don't. That's exactly what my son is cool teacher wants for the evening.

Yeah, look at what he says. This is in chapter 7, verse 16, don't be overly righteous, nor be overly wise. Why should you destroy yourself? Takes a lot of effort. To be such a good moral person. But also don't be overly wicked, and certainly don't be a fool, because why should you die young?

Now, do we need to take this all with the grain of salt because he's in his dark place? Look at his conclusion. He said, it's good to grasp the one and not let go of the other, and the one who fears God will avoid all extremes. So if you fear God, you will avoid being overly wicked. That makes sense.

But fearing God will also make you avoid, allow you to avoid being overly righteous. Overly righteous. Yeah. It sounds odd to say it, but I think in the context of the book, you can sort out what he's saying is it's good to be righteous. It's good to strive to live a good, upright, moral life. But something happens when that's my soul focus and mindset, especially on the misreading of Proverbs that says, oh, if I just live like this, then plug in the formula, God's gonna shower wealth

and blessing on me from heaven, he has to, because I'm doing the right thing. That's what I think that's what he's talking about, overly righteous. So, an example would be someone who comes to you and says, I did this right, I did this right, I did this right, I'm doing this right, and I'm still not enjoying this, and God hasn't hooked me up with this, and you would say to that person, you're being

overly righteous, maybe. No, I think that's what it means. Yeah, like maybe in a pastoral setting, it's someone who's having a crisis of faith because, you know, they didn't get the promotion. And they've been working so hard and telling the truth and they've been cheering with their coworkers about Jesus and they've been praying and they serve at church. And why didn't God hook me up? You know, like we all, it's very easy for religious people to get into that mindset very quickly.

When things go wrong, you start to think about all the things you've been trying to do right. And like, why couldn't God come through? But as a pastor, you wouldn't go to that person's say, okay, well, why don't you go and, you know, go hang out at a strip club for a while and you like, level it out a little bit. You're being a little too righteous.

That's not the point. Oh, that's not the point. The point is, you like level it out a little bit. You're being all too righteous. That's not the point. That's not the point. The point is, you've found yourself in a mindset where you believe that God owes you something because of your attempts to live a good life. And the simply living that way will guarantee positive outcomes for me. I have a very black and white thinking,

so it's like there's a right and the wrong. So any decision you can make, there's the right thing to do, there's the wrong thing to do. And I can get paralyzed by that. And of course, I'm not always, sometimes I'm just like, I'm gonna do the wrong thing, I'm just gonna, whatever.

But like, but when I am trying to do the right thing, that becomes kind of, it becomes paralyzing sometimes because you can't always know what the right thing is. I guess that's a point where it's just like, okay, let yourself off the hook. Maybe this is right, maybe this is not. But if I obsess about it too much, I'm just being overly righteous.

Would that be a good example? Yeah, I think he's talking about a mindset. I don't think he's talking about being a moral person full of integrity for the long haul is a bad idea. That's what he's saying. But I think he's saying there's a mindset you get yourself into where you think that that's going to guarantee certain results in life. And his whole point is, man, I've seen righteous people die and wicked people die. It's like don't overestimate. Yeah, maybe a key is your own abilities.

There's a difference in his the way he phrases it. There's a difference between overly righteous and overly wise and fearing the Lord. So like you can, yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. You can, if you can be overly righteous and not be fearing the Lord. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point, John. No, that's a good observation. Still fear God and do wise. Yes, that's right. You can overdo it. You can underdo it.

You can underdo it. But the key is to fear God, which I guess begs the question for us to have a discussion about. What does that mean? Because in my mind, that's synonymous with being righteous in some way. Or at least it seems like being righteous is is an outcome of fearing God. Yeah, it totally is. It's as we talked about Proverbs, it's a moral mindset. Yeah, it's a mindset that acknowledges that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that I need to honor those boundary lines in life and in the universe and my behavior.

And so that even when I don't want to do the right thing, I'll do it anyway, because I know that I'm not God and I fear God. There's a reverence and awe that I don't get to redefine good and evil. So I mean, the teacher says like, that's a good thing. That's gonna save you a lot of trouble. But what it won't do is guarantee you success. Overly righteous, it could mean a mindset, but could it also mean, sometimes you just gotta cut yourself

some slack. Like, God loves you, and you're not gonna do everything right. And every once in a while, there's gonna be that moment and you're like, I know this is the right thing to do. I just can't. And for you to go, you know what? There's some wisdom. I feel like God's okay with me not taking this problem on

or not. Yeah, that's interesting. Let in this one pass. okay with me, not taking this problem on or not. Yeah, that's interesting. Letting this one pass. And I know, I know if someone came up to me and said, John, why did you let that pass? That wasn't the right thing to do. I'd be like, yeah, you're right. That was, I just didn't have any more energy.

I was tired. I know that person over there now is gonna have it worse because of that, but I was gonna drive myself crazy if I tried to try to be the hero. Is it don't try to be the hero? That's really interesting. It's personal too. Yeah. I think. The Messiah complex thing. Yeah, yeah. No, there's a lot of scenarios, you know, what comes to my mind is just personal experiences in local church leadership, but just leadership in anything. Being a part of a leadership team or an individual leading something, well, yeah, you get

faced with decisions where there is no great decision. There's just a, well, that's probably the best option available and it's better than the other one. But neither one is the great decision for what you would hope. And then you do it and you wish it could be different, but you don't have any control. Right. And there's those, well here's another example. It's really interesting. I can't remember what this is called,

but there's this parodot or there's this dilemma. It has a name. Hopefully I could describe it well, but basically if you knew, if you came up to me and said, John, I'm gonna die tomorrow. I just need 10 bucks and I said, sorry, I'm like morally that's

That's not righteous, right? I can give up ten bucks to make sure that you survive another day That you extrapolate that out and there are a thousand people somewhere in this world and Organizations trying to serve them that if I gave ten bucks. I would save their lives So what's the difference between me saying? I gave 10 bucks, I would save their lives. So what's the difference between me saying, node Tim, I'm not giving you 10 bucks, see in the afterlife, and me saying no to these organizations.

And then you extrapolate that out, and why should I ever shop at new seasons? Or why should I ever go have a nice meal? Or why should I ever do anything? And at that point, it's like, yeah, that makes sense. But you really, how do you live that way? Mm-hmm. The scenario you just painted plus the leadership scenario,

plus the hero complex might be somewhere in there. Yeah, no, I think we're in that same ballpark of Do your best live a righteous life? Yes care about people and try to help the world Yeah, cuz notice what he says is that over righteousness and over wisdom being over lies will destroy you It'll destroy you. That's it. That's it. And then he says being overly wicked and super foolish, we'll die young. Yeah.

So, is this how it's appointed? Yeah, it's a whole point. It seems like there's so much good that needs to be done in the world. If you try and do it all, you'll destroy yourself. You'll destroy yourself. Yeah.

And you need to leave some room to, and he talks about this later, just enjoy. Yes. Your wife enjoy your some food. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're just, yeah, it's almost like the, if you're going to humble yourself and recognize your frailty and mortality, so you can't figure everything out. There's also this balance of recognizing your frailty and mortality. You can't solve everybody's problems in the world. And God's not gonna hold you accountable for that. You are responsible to do what's in front of you,

you know, for your God. Because I like to do the right thing. I know, yeah, yes. I think many people do. Yeah. Maybe even most people want to do the right. They want to be an admirable person, make wise decisions, have things go well for them, have things go well for others, make a difference in the world. I do think there are some people temperamentalized who obsess

over that. That's a hang up them, or a point of constant stress. For them, just fear the Lord. Yeah. Jessica, my wife, Jessica, has an amazingly generous heart, and something about just seeing homeless people around the city messes with her. So she used this image one time where what she wishes is that she could just be throwing

plates of food and money out the window, the car she drove through downtown and making spaghetti dinners. You know that she's just giving it away as we drive along? Like there's that, like that's what she's constantly feeling that. She's being tortured when she drives around the city, that's how she feels. And yeah, we're just processing that, because I'm aware of those people in their circumstances, too. Yeah, we walk by a crew of them every year. Yeah, that's right. And I'm very aware of them, but we have a different emotional response.

And I think there are some people for him just hardship and suffering in the world Makes him feel extremely anxious that they are not the ones Solving that problem right and I think his point is like you can't solve help solve some problems Yeah, it's good that you feel that way. It's empathy, but you'll destroy yourself if you Try and try and act on every one of those feelings every time. Or let it drive you into miserable state of consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Let's make it happen. What are we supposed to do with all of this?

Death, March of Time, chance, be wise, but no guarantees. So that all seems like it's setting you up to be an agnostic right or a relative in store like right you know and to me what's most fascinating about this is for the teacher it's exactly the opposite for the teacher acknowledging our frailty or mortality, our lack of control, is the silver bullet for coming to enjoy your life. Yeah. And that's very non-intuitive for Westerners, I think.

Not at all. And I feel like, I want to talk about this because I want this to sink in for me. Because I love this sentiment. There's the Carpe Diem, Seas of the Day. A little bit. A little bit. Cause I love this sentiment. There's the Carpe Diem, sees the day. There's this, it's in Vogue right now with meditation and just don't obsess about your thoughts, just kind of enjoy your breath. And just be present.

And I think there's something here that seems to overlap with that. I think so too. Yeah, this is one of those points where we are reminded that the Bible is a eastern document. From Western modern Westerners point of view, right? Right, American Europe. It didn't pop up in enlightenment Europe. Yeah, it's very much a Eastern mindset and mentality. And so this is one of them.

There's six different times where you're on a downhill slope in some poem or something essay of the teacher and he's like meaningless, hevel, you're going to die. It's all, you know. And then he'll just stop and he'll say, so enjoy your life. Yeah. Go have a drink with a friend, enjoy your wife if you're married, eat a good meal. You know what he'll like? Wait a minute. So my favorite one is in chapter 5 here. Chapter 5 verse 15. He says, Everyone comes naked from their mother's womb and as everyone comes, so you depart, they take nothing mother's womb. And as everyone comes, so you depart, they take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands. This is a grievous evil. All their days, they eat

in darkness with great frustration, affliction, and anger. Who's eating in darkness? I did. People who work hard, but you can't take any of it with you. So all of your days, you're working, you're working to generate wealth, and you eat in darkness, and you're frustrated, and you're angry. And then you die. Why, why are you eating in darkness?

You can't take this. I think that's just a description of a bad week at work. Oh, okay. You worked late, you're eating by yourself, everyone went home. And then you die. And then you die. In the same exact way you were born. It's like a so screwed up. And then, and then his next sentence is, so here's what's good. It's appropriate for a person to eat, drink, and to find satisfaction in their toils some labor under the sun during the few days of your life that God's given them because that's your law. So somehow recognizing I'm frail, I'm mortal,

I can't take any of this with me, but somehow in there is something good And I find a good meal and a drink and some degree of satisfaction in this work that has no eternal significance as far as I can tell today. So somewhere in there. Let's paint the portrait again. You're late at work, you just had a horrible day. I mean, someone chewed you out, you had a, you chewed someone out like a sail fell through like all these things and now

you're late, you're trying to clean it up, you're missing an event that your family's at, you really wanted to go to, you're tired and you skipped lunch but you still don't have time to eat so you're just slamming something from the like cafeteria, that's gross. Yeah. While you're trying slamming something from the like cafeteria. That's gross. Yeah. While you're trying to plug through some emails, wishing you were home and it feels miserable. And then he says, stop for a second.

And just enjoy that moment. Because that's your lot. And it might feel miserable, but this is life. You're doing it. Like this is, enjoy that food, enjoy this next breath, and then do that email, and enjoy the fact that you had one of the worst days of your month, and then move on. Is that kind of what he's saying?

I think that's what he's saying. Yes. It's very zen. It's super zen. It's really surprising. Six different times, you have a moment like this. Chapter eight. Here's something else that's heavily on the earth.

Righteous people get the wicked people deserve and the wicked people get what righteous people deserve. This is heavily, I say. So here's what I commend. Go enjoy your life, because there's nothing better. For a person under the sun to eat and drink and be glad Then joy will accompany them and all their toil the days of life. Oh God's given them. Yeah, so it's all point It's like things don't always work out in life and you can't do a thing about it

and Somehow there's a release there that enables you to go have a drink with your friends and people you love and to just acknowledge the fact this tastes good. Yeah. And I have good, I have these and these people care about me. Care about me and I have no control over any of this. Yeah. I think that's it. And everything else right now is falling apart but this. Yeah. Glass of whatever, tastes pretty great. Yeah, so there's something, there's a gift, he calls it the gift of God,

in coming to terms with my inability to control basically all my life circumstances. I love that there, this is in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Like, hidden here in this book is like something that feels very kind of Buddhist or something. It's like, hey, no, this is real. Like, you're gonna have to do this. Enjoy. Take a breath. Yeah, it's interesting.

You know, I'm not, you know, I've only, other than talking with friends, you know, or acquaintances who are Buddhist and reading some introduction to world religions. Be interesting to see what's the real overlap. Yeah, what is the real overlap? And then what's, I don't know either. And then what's the difference, you know, I think, I think, from a classical Buddhist point of view,

I think from a classical Buddhist point of view, it would be I'm trying to lose any sense of my own individuality or will. Oh sure. And allow my consciousness to be absorbed into the oneness of the universe. And that allows me to be detached from any of my life circumstances or having emotions, emotional responses to them. I think that's the basic idea. That sounds familiar. Um, whereas I think for the teacher, he's like actually be even more centered in that emotion. Yeah, because his whole point is angry. It's not that, like God's in control, you know, like God's doing this.

I just can't figure out what that I'm not God. And so it's this place of fear of humility before God. And giving up control to a person who I don't always understand. But I have to learn how to trust, and I just have to reckon that I don't have control. And somehow I can see my life as a gift from God, even if it sucks. See, I think about what he means here. There's a beauty and a gift and a goodness to things that because I cannot control them and because they're not guaranteed, I think that's what he's saying.

So there's a beauty because you can't control it or be in spite of the fact that you can't control it or be in spite of the fact that you can't control it. Oh, what's point is you can't control what your work day or your career produces. So enjoy whatever it is that you get out of it. Yeah. And the fact that you enjoy it in spite of. Enjoy it, yeah, in spite of. In spite of the fact that. I suppose that's for difficult things.

Right. And then there are other things like he says like a a good meal, or a drink, or a friend. Enjoy it for what it is. You enjoy it because you're not guaranteed a best friend in life, and you're not guaranteed to live in a place where there's good craft breweries around to enjoy good beer, but when you get one, enjoy it.

It's just, here it is, I'm here right now enjoying this. And there's the beauty of things that you can't control. Blaze Pascal, who was, I don't know when he lived, all I've read is the ponseys by him. And he has this profound quote that's one of his thoughts and ponseys, and to me it summarizes so much of what the teacher is trying to say. He says, we're never satisfied with the present. We anticipate the future is too slow and coming, as if we can hasten its course, or we recall the past to stop its too rapid flight. We are so unwise that we wander about in times which are not ours, and do not think of the only time which actually belongs to us. We are so idle that we dream of those times which are no more,

and we thoughtlessly overlook the only time that exists. It's because the present is generally painful to us, so we can seal it from our sight because it troubles us. And if it happens to be delightful to us, we regret to see it pass away. We try to sustain it by the future and try to control matters which are not in our power, preparing ourselves for a time that we have no certainty of reaching. So we should each examine our thoughts, and we'll find that they are all occupied with

either the past or the future. Yeah, scarcely ever think of the present. And when we do, it is only to take light from it to arrange the future. The present is never our end. The past and the present are our means. The future alone is our end. And so we truly never live. But rather, hope to live.

And as we are always preparing to be happy, it is inevitable that we should never be so. Whoa, that was well put. Oh, dude, that's it. That's probably one of the best summaries of ecclesiasties I've ever read. I mean, he's basically making a case for living in the present, not being obsessed with trying to control

the future, or just living in the past. Yeah, or create an illusion of happiness that we don't have anymore. So would you say any of you think this is a good summary of the ASEAS? So you think a good summary of the ASEAS is how to live in the present? Oh, maybe I should say, I think it's the best summary of the teacher. The teacher in ecclesiastes. Yeah, that I've come across. Again, because the teacher is the bulk of the book. Right. But the author is bringing him so that you can consider it. I think that's right. Yes. So being in the present and viewing what's right in front of me, seeing its

giftness, its goodness, six different times. It's not a long book. Yeah. Six different times he goes through this exercise and death and the march of time, those get repeated a lot, but this is one of the most repeated things in the book other than the word Hevel. So this ability to see and even the pain and difficulty of my present some kind of gift and that's clearly a major theme for the teacher. And it's really profound. And so I see, I think what Pascal is playing out here is a way into what the teacher is saying. You know, you're still breathing, you're still alive, you can still laugh. This isn't something that any person can ever say on someone else's, for someone else.

Sure. You know, like all you can do is say, listen, I'm trying to someone else. Sure. You know? Yeah. Like all you can do is say, listen, I'm trying to get here. Yeah. And maybe this will be helpful for you, but man, as a pastor, I'm always so aware of this, you know, when I'm like teaching in a Sunday gathering and it's like, I know that I have no clue of the stories that are in the room. Yeah. And so I'm not going to try and tell someone they should have a good day.

But I do think there's wisdom here, because a lot of the reasons we're not having a good day is because we have really screwed up expectations out of Christianity or out of life in general. And that's what this book dismantles for our good. It's really interesting. I love how he talks about how we were using the present to try to control the future and it's kind of futile in some ways. But it's not completely futile in that if you are wise, you're increasing your odds. Yeah, that's right. So it seems like there's this little give and take

of like, yeah, spend some of your time increasing your odds, thinking things through, making good plans, being reflective about the past to learn from things, and then thinking about the future and architecting plans for how to go. Like there's wisdom in that. But then if you're always stuck in that gear, then that's a cruel joke.

Because first of all, it might not work out. And second of all, then you never actually were just living. Yes. And so it kind of seems like there needs to be a balance there. Yeah, this will said I think that's right. Yeah, we're almost back to don't be overly righteous. Right. That's overly that's overly wise overly wise is like yeah, I from 6 a.m. Till noon I reflected on the past and then from noon till bedtime I plan for the future

Yeah, and Yeah, and when did you live that day? Yeah, I didn't yeah I plan for the future. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. And when did you live that day? Yeah. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah, there's some days where I put my head down in my pillow, and it's like all of a sudden I wake up, and I'm like, wow, where's my mind?

Like I've just been churning on like, oh, it's not enough time. I gotta get this thing, and I'll solve that problem, you know? Yeah. I realize my whole day I've just been in like, yeah. Some time scarcity problem solving mindset. Yeah. And then I'm like, I didn't actually even enjoy anything today. Yeah.

So sad. I think that happened. Seasons in life. I think we all find ourselves there. And half a dozen times the teacher says, just stop, I just stop. I think that's why some people like to run long distances. So I've heard from like long distance runners is,

at a certain point, you are so tired, you know, all you can do is focus on running. Yes, yes. You've talked about this by riding your bike. Yes. Like if you're riding up a hill, you're just like, I'm just gonna ride up the hill. That's all I'm doing right now.

That's all you can think about. And then I've had to describe this way where the runner says, and so I stop thinking about things, and I'm just running. But then all of a sudden the thoughts that I'm having are no longer the ones I feel like I'm trying to control and think it's just like it gets into a different rhythm. And it's a different creative rhythm

where like when you do have a thought, it's almost like a dream state where it's like, you're not, you're just letting it come and you're like, well that's interesting thought and then it goes and then, and it's kind of a picture of being present, I suppose. You have to exhaust yourself

before you could get there. I know it. Man, before my knee blew out, I used to run a lot. And that was what I loved most. Did you run a lot? Yeah, it was, for me, it was like 25 minutes in. Oh yeah, that's when it would click. Yeah, 25 to 30 minutes in.

And then I couldn't think about work if I wanted to. Yeah. Just had to think about my breathing and it's very interesting. Again, that's another overlap with more Eastern world views that recognize the state of our bodies has so much to do with our ability to think in a healthy way. Moderation, living the present, don't try to control things. Life is full of these things that are out of your control and that don't always make sense.

Death and chance and time will put those in your face every day if you think about it too much. Then out of that flow is so what did you do? We still try and be wise, just don't expect too much out of it, and then the gift of God thing. I think that's- Which is to enjoy your lot. To be present and to enjoy what's in front of you,

no matter what that is. And so the author puts this in front of us, to what end? Why is the author come and say, listen to this teacher and these things? Yeah, well, he tells us why. I mean, the author come and say, listen to this teacher and these things? Yeah, well, he tells us why. I mean, the author is anonymous, but the very end of the book in chapter 12, the author says, you know, the teacher was wise. He empowered knowledge to people, he pondered and searched out and sat in order many proverbs. The teacher was a word Smith

He says he searched to find just the right words and he affirms. He says what he wrote is was true and right And he says this he says the words of the wise are like goats and their collections of sangs are like embedded nails So he recognizes this life is painful painful and it hurts you to hear this, but you need to hear it. Why? Because ignorance is bliss, right? Yes, we said earlier, he says learning will make you sad. And he says it here, he says, be warned my son of anything in addition to them, of the making of many books, there's no end, and of much study weary is the body.

So it's almost like he's hedging now and he's saying, listen to the teacher. It's very important that you hear it, but at a certain point. This is the author. Yeah, this is the author speaking about the teacher's words. Oh, and he's the one that says, don't be warned of taking this even further.

Okay. Be warned of anything. We've gone far enough. I think it's what he's saying. Because listen, you can rack your brain over the existential questions and write a million books and all you're gonna do is make yourself tired. I think that's what he means.

It's like, it's like he drove us over to this ledge. It's like fantastic, gorgeous, just like cliff. And you just like, this is the end, we're stuck here. And then you think you're there and you think, okay, I guess I'm gonna have to jump off of this cliff. And then the author goes, cool, let's not go any farther. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Like this is a good place to have gone to looked at this, now let's. Yeah, you'll be shaped by this experience. You'll you'll remember it because you got poked. You got you got poked. You got stabbed by the goad. Goaded, but this will destroy you. If you take this all the way to the bottom.

And then the author's bottom line at the end of the book. It's a little concluding poem. He says, now we've heard everything. Here is the conclusion of the matter. Fear God, keep his commandments. This is the duty of all mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it's good or evil. So he says, no matter what's been said, we're Israelites. Right? Ten commandments. Yeah. The Torah, the Covenant, God's Creator. He's going to bring Jesus to our world. He's doing something

with us. And even though my every deed, hidden, good or evil, it may not have a guaranteed outcome in my lifetime, there is, I am still accountable for it. So if I do, if I steal paper clips from work, I might not get fired. And if I worked really hard and no one ever acknowledged it, you know, and I didn't get the promotion or whatever, so all the same. Everything I do will ultimately be weighed and held accountable. He calls that God bringing every deed into his judgment, which is not a bad word, especially in the Old Testament. So it's justice. Isn't it interesting judgment has negative connotations in English, but justice has very positive connotations. They're basically synonyms. That's what this is about. We want justice. We want people to be held accountable. For what?

Well, I want certain people. I want other than me and the people I care about right? So yeah, so there's this idea that even though life is shrouded in heaven now It won't always be so that's what he's saying God is going to clear the heaven. That's this is going one day one day of the fog will be left Yes, yeah, and everything that we've've done will be very clear what the consequences are. Because you see a really horrible person and you think, where are the consequences for their horrible behavior? And he's like, listen, God will bring justice.

And who, right now, hevel. So I still really like this, this image of the fog. Talked about that, right? Because when you're driving in fog or whatever, it's disorienting. Yeah. Kind of a loose track of where you're at. It's a little bit scary sometimes. Life is like that. And in this foggy ness things aren't gonna be clear. Things aren't gonna work out the way they should, the way you expect.

So realize that and then all of a sudden the very end he goes, be clear, things aren't going to work out the way they should, the way you expect. So realize that. And then all of a sudden the very end, it goes, but one day all this fog will be lifted. And everything will be seen for what it is. And so fear the Lord. Yes. Yes. So it's a future hope that ultimately does give meaning to my behavior.

And then so you go back and you realize, yes, the teacher, what the teacher was trying to focus on was life under the sun. So life now as we experience it. Life in the fog. It's like life in the fog, yeah. And so that, and life in the fog might start to eat away at your motivation to do the right thing and to fear the Lord.

And life in the fog, you're going to see things happen that seem like they go against what ought to happen in the world, and they certainly go against what the Proverbs say. And so there's a profound forward focus here at the very end of the book. That's very similar to, I mean, we're in the same neighborhood of a Jewish Christian worldview of a hope for final justice. And so the wisdom of this book is to, for me, to adjust my expectations to life here under the sun. That allows me to enjoy it because it's all really screwed up a lot of the time, but it's still good, and there's still goodness worth enjoying, despite the fact that

there's no guarantees that it will work out for me here. So in a way, it's proverbs is setting out this general rule. We'll live this way, and this will likely be the outcome. Ecclesiastes comes along and explores it from our perspective of the exceptions. But wait a minute, it doesn't always work out that way. What does that mean for me? Like, what kind of world am I in then right now? What should my expectations be? That's Ecclesiastes. And then Job is going to sit in the same place of E ecclesiastes, but then explore the question of,

well, what does that mean about God? And who God is? And how God interacts with the world? Ecclesiastes was focusing on how I deal with the world in light of the heaven. And Job will then contribute to the conversation and guide us in how we think about who God is. So can we do a little thought experiment really quick? Yeah, so we talked about how like if you went to I think I turned it into a bar But you walk into a bar and there's there's probably the assies and Job Yeah, and you get to sit down with them and ask them a question Let's say you're gonna sit down with them and you're like a new parent and them and ask them a question. Let's say you're gonna sit down with them and you're like a new parent.

And so you're having your first kid, you plan on having a lot of kids. And you say, hey guys, I want to do this parenting thing right. So give me your perspective. Yeah. And the way they should do it. Yeah, fear the Lord. Discipline, work ethic. Yeah. Yeah. Pass on this wisdom to them. And they're going to, it's going to be great. And you're going to be so blessed that you have so many kids. And they're going to great, prosperous lives. So, use wisdom. Yeah. And then you turn to a lazy ass these.

And he'll say, that's interesting. You know, I have this friend. Right, like he did all that. And one of the kids died prematurely. Another one hates him now. And then, and the guy who's now old and realizes he has to pass on everything he worked for to this kid who's probably just gonna blow it on foolish things.

And he was as wise as he could be. So what I would recommend is do your best, don't kill yourself and just cherish those moments with your kids. Like when you're there and your playing Legos with them, even though it really hurts your back, like this is it, this is your life, and this is a gift from God, this moment right now.

Yeah, you're reading Pete the Cat for the 19th time. Oh, oh. Or maybe the hell up and kiss you on the face. And you're just like, enjoy that. But maybe they're screaming bloody murder in front of someone you don't know, and it's super embarrassing. But these are the moments that you guys, so just enjoy it.

Yeah, just enjoy it. That's well said. And then, but that's Ecclesiastes, and then you got the author who's kind of sitting next to Ecclesiastes and going, yeah, I'm glad you heard that, but also remember that everything you do will be, you know, brought to light and fearful. You are accountable before God for how you raise your child.

It's almost like in this thought experiment, we need like Ecclesiies and ecclesiasties like chaperone. Like, let's them talk and then he's like, okay, okay. I'm glad you heard that. Right. So now, just, you know, fear the Lord and... That's good, yeah.

That's good analogy. And then, yeah, and then Job is this wise old person and says, you know, I had a whole grip of kids. Yeah, yeah. And they always take away from me. And your family along the way will probably blow up in some way. And I want you to know that God has committed to you and that you trust worthy, even in your darkest hour. I think that's how the conversation went on. That's the wisdom of the literature of the Bible. It's so amazing.

It really is. It's brought into this 3000 year old conversation about what kind of world we're in and how to live well before God in this world. That's it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Project. I'm John Collins and that was a conversation with Dr. Tim McEy, our good friend Tim McEy, on the book of Ecclesiastes. We boiled this all down to a five minute video that we put on YouTube.

It should be up on YouTube in July, end of July 2016. Our YouTube channel is youtube.com slash the Bible Project. You could also say hi to us on Twitter, at join Bible Proge, and we're on Facebook, Facebook.com slash the Bible project. You could also say hi to us on Twitter at join Bible Proj and we're on Facebook Facebook.com slash the Bible project. Thanks for being a part of this and supporting us. We've got hundreds of monthly supporters who keep all of this content for free, our videos, our podcasts, the study guys that we put up on our website, you can get that stuff at www.jointhebroadproject.com and you can sign up to be a supporter there as well.

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