BibleProject - Wisdom Series: Proverbs

Episode Date: June 9, 2016

In this episode, Tim and Jon talk about the ancient wisdom found in the book of Proverbs. The author of Proverbs is this incredible teacher who offers guidance for just about everything humans will encounter in their lives, but is it just a book of wisdom sayings that we can memorize and put on our walls? The guys will go on to explain that wisdom, and the Hebrew concept of “chokmah,” is much more than that. In the first part of the episode (01:52-10:00), the guys talk about the Hebrew word for wisdom, “chokmah.” In the Bible, God uses chokmah to design the entire universe, and humans can access this divine wisdom. But it’s not just about using wisdom to know the pattern of the universe; we can use it to design our life. In the next part of the episode (10:25-22:00), the guys talk about chokmah as more than an impersonal force. The wisdom found in Proverbs is not just about goodness and reality, it’s also about street smarts. This is the second nuance of chokmah. In English, wisdom is something that we think of as intellectual. Chokmah can mean a type of knowledge or moral law, but it also implies application. Proverbs is trying to persuade you to use this chokmah to change your life. In the next part of the episode (22:22-31:13), Tim and Jon talk about how we can apply chokmah in our lives. Chokmah is an attribute of God that we can actually interact with and use in our lives. But it’s not about passively gaining knowledge; it leaves us with a responsibility. In the next part of the episode (31:45-41:13), the guys talk about some of the warnings in the book of Proverbs. Proverbs warns against becoming “wise in our own eyes.” We can think we’re using chokmah and making wise decisions, but we’re not. This is where the concept of the fear of the Lord comes in. In the final part of the episode (41:42-48:55), the guys talk about what it looks like to fear the Lord. Sometimes a wise decision in our culture can look different from making a decision using chokmah. It’s about staying aligned with our moral compass and the heart of God in every aspect of our lives. Video: This episode is designed to accompany our video on the book of Proverbs. You can view it on our youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gab04dPs_uA References: What is the Hope for Humanity? A discussion of technology, politics, and theology with N.T. Wright and Peter Thiel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Mlu7sHEHE Scripture References: Proverbs Show Music: Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn Music Blue Skies by Unwritten Stories Flooded Meadows by Unwritten Stories

Hey, this is Cooper at Bible Project. I produce the podcast in Classroom. We've been exploring a theme called the City, and it's a pretty big theme. So we decided to do two separate Q and R episodes about it. We're currently taking questions for the second Q and R and we'd love to hear from you. Just record your question by July 21st

and send it to us at infoatbiboproject.com. Let us know your name and where you're from, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds and please transcribe your question when you email it in, try to keep your question to about 20 seconds, and please transcribe your question when you email it in. That's a huge help to our team. We're excited to hear from you. Here's the episode.

We are talking through the books in the wisdom literature of the Hebrew Bible. Proverbs, ecclesiastes, and Job. Today, we're going to dive into the book of Proverbs. Let the wise listen and add to their learning. Let the discerning get more guidance. This book is for understanding Proverbs and par, and riddles of the wise. This book claims that there's a powerful, mysterious force in the universe called Hokma. We translate that Hebrew word into wisdom.

Wisdom is described as this universal principle, according to which the whole universe is ordered and in which it coheres. Proverbs begins with nine chapters of speeches, encouraging us the reader to see Kokma. And then the rest of the book is the Proverbs themselves. It's hundreds and hundreds of these saying so that just take every topic in life you could possibly imagine

and then running them through the grid of the law of Hokma that runs the universe. Learning about Hokma is not some intellectual exercise with an impersonal force. Yeah, wisdom is an attribute of God, but it's also something that we're gonna see is accessible to humans you can have wisdom too. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did

on the Book of Proverbs. Here we go. The book of Proverbs, it's one of the three books in the Wisdom literature. Yeah, what we're going to frame all of these books as is addressing the question, what kind of world am I living in? And what does it mean to live well in God's world? These books all take for granted that the God of Israel is the creator and God of the world. This would be a book that would make it to the New York Times bestseller list and nonfiction. It'd be like how to make friends and influence people in a book. But for

religious people. But for religious people. There's good evil right and wrong. So how what does it mean to live well and live the good life here? Yeah. So what's interesting about the Book of Proverbs is that chapters one to nine begins with the all these speeches, not Proverbs, but speeches. There's a set of common themes that unite all these speeches. And the first is that wisdom is described as this universal principle according to which the whole universe is ordered and in which it coheres. The most famous example of this is in Proverbs 8, where wisdom is something God uses to actually build an architect, the whole universe. So it says in Proverbs 8 that the Lord acquired wisdom as the first of all that he did and that he formed wisdom and then used

wisdom to architect the watery depths and the mountains and the hills and how he marked out the heavens. It's all this architectural imagery of God making a big building, but wisdom is the blueprint. It's really interesting. So it's as if there's lots of metaphors you could use. Think of a rug. So the weave and pattern of the fabric is woven in order with wisdom or that there's that the universe and existence has a grain like wood and you can live with the grain or you can go against the grain.

There's an order, a cause-effect pattern. So in the book of Proverbs, there is a set of laws, so to speak, for how life tends to work. What's the scripture that talks about it like a blueprint? Oh, that's in Proverbs 8, it starts in verse 22. But it's wisdom speaking and saying, the Lord acquired me and then started using me when he was architecting and building the universe. So wisdom is the blueprint in this metaphor. So when God was designing the universe,

he would then go and he would look at wisdom and go, okay, that's how I'm gonna do it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wisdom is an attribute of God, but it's also something that we're gonna see is accessible to humans. You can have wisdom, too. And when you do that, you're actually tapping to something outside of yourself that is an attribute of God himself, and that it's a principle woven into how the world works. It's the same attribute that gave the blueprints for the world. Correct. Yeah, it's actually, actually, there's an important difference,

but it's very similar to the view of the force in the Star Wars universe, that there's a force, a set of cause and effect, patterns, and you can get in touch with them and work along with them. You can live along with the Force, the Light, or you can... But so the difference is that there's no dark side of the Force, there's just foolishness. There's either using the Force or not. There's just foolishness. There's either using the force or not. There's either using the force. Only the light side in Proverbs.

There's no dark side. The dark side is just being a fool and living against the grain of the universe, in which case you'll get punished. So that's the first thing, is that it's an attribute of God. It's a principle according to which the world works and the universe is ordered. And then this gets called Hokma. Yeah, so the Hebrew word for wisdom is the word Hokma. You can't have to clear your throat a little bit in that second syllable Hokma. Hokma. Yeah, so wisdom is a standard English translation. It has

another nuance to it that we don't have when the English word wisdom Which we'll talk about in a second, but it's that's the basic idea of hochma It's the principle rather than calling it the force because I keep thinking it Star Wars. Oh, yeah Let's just call it hochma hochma hochma But it's not just like a law of gravity or something. It's like the law of gravity in The you see it at work everywhere, but you can't see it. You don't see it itself.

Yeah, but it's also a moral law. So every time you see somebody cheat and then get caught and pay the consequences, that's Hochma at work. Because Hochma says always have integrity. So it's not just impersonal, it's about decisions and moral behavior too. So that's a very different world view than,

and just an atheistic world view that, there is no moral guiding, so you're just gonna do what you need to do to survive. This is saying, actually when creation was ordered, there was this moral fabric put into it. It's a moral universe. That's right. The famous quote of Martin Luther King Jr. The arc of history is long, but it then spends towards justice. That's the world view of Proverbs. Justice yeah, justice and... That justice will win. And goodness,

eventually. Yeah. And that people who recognize that will cooperate and make participate in justice themselves. So, yeah. Because within the fabric of creation is, it was built with the DNA of justice. Yeah.

And so it's going to, it's going to realize that. It's going to realize and reward integrity and honesty and generosity and justice. And not just in nature, in personally, but the law of human nature and how humans operate that goodness will become its own reward over time. So, a hoekma. If you were to characterize Proverbs as this wise teacher, and you got into her head, you would see that she was very acutely aware of hoekma. She sees it everywhere. She sees it.

And it's a pattern to how the world works. Not just gravity and the stars and atomic forces, but like relationships and everyday life decisions also work according to a pattern. And if you can figure that out, you can live long. And that's why she's so smart when you bring a dilemma to her. And she's so quick to be like, well, here's what's going on. Yeah. It's because she sees the underlying patterns and the underlying way going on. Yeah. It's because she sees the underlying patterns. Yeah.

And the underlying way things work. Yeah. Yeah. She looks for patterns in the cause and effect of people's decisions. And she believes in the patterns. And they've been there. And they've been there. And they're part of how God wired the universe.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, Hokhma isn't just... Does she have a tattoo, a Hokma tattoo? In Hebrew, under in the West. Yeah, right, under forearm. Therefore, so that's why Hokma as skill, not just knowledge, but skill is really important because it's not just that you know about the pattern, it's that you use it. And then you craft your life the same way a stone mason

can chisel a statue out of a big boulder. So you take this raw material that is your life and you can design it. By chiseling your life out, according to the pattern of Hokuma, according to wisdom and justice and integrity and hard work and diligence and patience and so on. Now it's not just goodness and morality, it's also just street smarts, right? Also, that's exactly right. And so that gets into the second main nuance of Hokhma in Hebrew that we don't have in our English word wisdom.

Wisdom is primarily a head knowledge. It's something you know, primarily intellectual reference. In Hebrew, it's an active meaning. Because you can also say, Solomon employs a bunch of artists, like stone workers and woodworkers to work in the temple. And he hires them because they have hochma. So it doesn't just mean-

There's not that there are a bunch of philosophers. Yeah, they're not philosophers. Yeah, they're just like really skilled woodworkers. So it's applied knowledge. It's that you know the raw materials you're working with and how they work and you know how to make them beautiful and design it well. So it's a skill.

So we've said a lot at this point and I just wanna make sure it's clear. Because in my head it's for some reason it's going a little fuzzy. Hokuma, who translated wisdom, and there's a moral component to it, because it rewards justice, integrity, and those kind of things. So built into the fabric of the universe itself is this moral component, which is a part of Hokuma. God used it as a blueprint when he designed the world.

Another thing about Hokemah though is you were just describing is just the ability, the applied ability to take that wisdom and then do something with it. That's right. So it's not just head knowledge. It's this very practical skill. That's right. Which gets applied to all kinds of things like I'm not particularly financially savvy, you know, myself. And so I probably could do a way better job at thinking long term and saving or whatever. That's, is that a moral issue? Is that right or wrong, you know? Well, maybe some people would say that it is. But it's just, I, some people lack hochma. Some people have hochma when it comes to skill with what they do with their money over the long haul.

So I'm, when I'm good at finance, I have hochma. Yes. When I'm good at making chairs out of wood. Yes, totally. I have hochma. Yes. When I'm good at being beer in my basement. Yeah, that's Hokma. But, and when you're good at having integrity and honesty

with how you deal with your coworkers, that too is Hokma. Now, what if I'm good at finances, but I do it in an unjust way? Yeah, then you're an idiot. Then I don't have hookers. Then you don't have hookers. So you can't separate the moral component in the practical skill. Correct.

That's correct. That's true. So a woodworker who makes these beautiful monuments for Solomon, but he's just like a scam artist, he wouldn't be considered having Hokema. Well, he has Hokema in his trade. But not in his personal life. Yes, he has, he's an evil with his life. An evil, a fool.

A evil. Yeah. He's that fool. Yeah, you transliterate it, EVIL. Really? Yes. Wow. Evil.

Evil. He's an Hebrew means fool. Wow. Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. Yeah. Correct. Yes. So the moral components like a layer that goes underneath all of the... So you can have Hokemo without morality as it pertains to things that aren't in the bounds of needing to be moral. Yeah. That's a good... Yeah. And typically those are in the realm of relationships. So if it's in the realm of relationships, you need morality. If it affects people, yeah. Essentially.

But doesn't everything affect people? I suppose it does. If I chop down a tree, is that immoral? The tree falls in somebody's house, and then I run away. That's immoral. And if I chop down too many trees, or you chop down a tree that's not yours. Yeah. Or I chop down too many trees, or you chop down a tree that's not yours.

Yeah. Or you chop down too many trees so that the squirrels don't have a home anymore. Yeah, I thought. So you can do all these things in a way that's, yeah, doesn't actually have hokema. Yes. But you can still make a beautiful end table with that tree.

Yeah. And so you have hokema as relates to the end table, but you didn't use hookmas. So I don't know, am I being too picky here? No, it's just, it's your, the way that you like to drill down precision in clear categories, I think, runs into difficulty in this set of concepts. Yeah, because this is just a word that they used in languages messy sometimes. Language is messy. Yeah, that's right. So the concept, well, I mean,

we're talking about fear of the Lord. We don't have to talk about it yet, but that's the word the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A lot of the proverbs have nothing to do with being moral or not, right? A lot of them are just like, here's a smart way to live. Here's another smart way to live. Um, the moral component is dominant, but it is dominant. Yeah, that's why in the same chapter of Proverbs,

the good guys are called the wise, the righteous, the hard working, and the bad guys are called the evil, the wicked, the unrighteous, the lazy. Okay. So, these categories are overlapped with each other. The moral and just the wise are stupid, and that's part of the world view of Proverbs. That's true.

But when it comes to certain business things that aren't, I mean, there's some lot of ethical stuff, but then there's Proverbs that are just to certain business things that aren't, I mean, there's some lot of ethical stuff, but then there's proverbs that are just like, here's how to handle, I don't know, I don't have an example. Yeah, yeah, no, proverbs 14-4, where there's no oxen, the manger is empty, but the strength of an ox produces abundant harvests.

Mm-hmm. So, life's a lot more complicated if you don't own an ox a lot harder. No, no where there's no ox and the manger is empty You don't have to scoop up poop. Oh, I see take out food every single day. You don't have to deal with it It's a nice clean manger. You don't have to deal with the mess. No ox, but you don't have an ox have to deal with the mess. No ox. But you don't have an ox, you're not going to produce an abundant harvest. So that's just a proverb about if you want to be productive, you have to be willing to put in the labor. Isn't that great? That's really great. To do the things you want to do, you often, most often, have to do things that you don't want to do, also, along with them. Yeah. And that's just the nature.

That's nothing to do with being a good person or being a bad person. Prove it's 14-4, it's just saying anything... It's a life skill. Anything meaningful in life is gonna have its upsides and its downsides. And that's just, there we go. And it made it into life. Yeah, exactly, but I love how it puts it. That's a bad, good price.

You don't have an ox? Your manger's nice and empty and clean. But the strength of the ox produces abundant harvest. Yeah, you don't have employees, your HR department. That's right. It's really easy going. That's right, no office dispute, no silos, people aren't. But you're doing all of it yourself.

But you're doing all the work yourself, but you're doing all the work by yourself. So some of the proverbs are kind of prescriptive, but that one that you just, we just talked about with the ox and the manger, isn't prescriptive. And it's actually, it's kind of like a little riddle. Yeah. It's like, you get to decide, do you want the dirty manger,

or do you want a clean manger, or do you want some help in the the dirty manger or do you want the or do you want a clean manger or do you want some help in the field you can't have both like which which one do you want to do yeah there's actually the proper the one-liners that are in Proverbs 10 through the end of the book they they have a whole wonderful creative diversity of forms so So some of them are like, be like this, don't be like that. But a lot of them are like little riddles. Yeah, and I think what, so a lot of them just say,

here's how life is. The soothing tongue is a tree of life, but a perverse tongue crushes the spirit. It's just saying people who speak kindly are like this. People who speak badly are like this. People who speak badly are like this. Yeah, but what's interesting is that proverb... Yeah, isn't telling you how to speak. It's just kind of telling you how it is.

But kind of embedded in that proverb, you get the idea that you should speak kindly. Yes. Oh yeah. But what is pointing out the pattern? But it's pointing out the pattern. People who speak kindly and gently, well, as a law by the Hokhmav of the universe, be a source of life to others. That's just the nature of relationships. So it's not prescriptive, but it definitely is kind of hinting towards the pattern that you should follow. It's telling you what kind of world you're living in.

A world where kind words are a source of life to others. What's really interesting about the ox and manger though, is arguably you can go either way. Oh, I see. Yeah. Or is it saying that, no, you need the ox. It deals with the ox. Yeah, the value is in the abundant harvest.

Yes. Abundant harvest are good for you and for others. OK. So it isn't saying good for you and for others. Okay. So it isn't saying like, you know, sometimes you might just want a simple manger. I don't know. It's interesting to me because I think about this. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm like, how complicated do I want to make my life?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is saying, well, you want an abundant harvest. I don't know. I want, I just want an adequate harvest. I still want to starve. Yes. This says nothing to do with the, but the any gram, retreat the Jessica went on, the type five. Yeah. One of our highest values is the uncomplicated life.

Yes, exactly. So I read that because I'm, yeah, I'm a fine. The, I read that proverb. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to limit the amount of ox poop I'm, yeah, I'm a five. But I read that proverb, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna limit the amount of ox poop I'm gonna deal with in my life. That sounds great. Yeah, yeah, totally. And so I read that proverb and I think, like, that's smart. But it's getting at an underlying principle.

Yeah, yeah. And that one does, I don't know, is it telling you, no. Like the right thing to do is to have ox and deal with the poop, deal with complications so you could have a big harvest. Is that what that proverb is trying to tell us? I think so. Okay. Yeah.

So I need to get on with my— So I need to get on with my— So I need to get on with my— If you want an abandoned harvest, you have to deal with— What if you don't want an abandoned harvest? Well, okay. No one back then was like, I don't want an abandoned harvest this year. Well, exactly, that's exactly right.

Because we can just go to the grocery store and get milk and sausage anytime we want. Yeah, right. Yeah, so for them, if you don't put up with life's complications, you don't eat. So you want abundant harvest. Got it. Which means you're gonna have to do some stuff

you don't wanna do to get the greatest goods in life. Yes. Always require de-saccharizes and compromises and dealing with difficult things. Dirty majors. The things that are worth chasing after and having in life are going to take a lot of work. So all the proverbs, even if they're not directly

telling what to do, they're pretty much telling you. They're trying to persuade you. They're trying to persuade you. There's a persuasive element to all the proverbs, even if they're not directly telling you what to do, they're pretty much telling you. They're trying to persuade you. They're trying to persuade you. There's a persuasive element to all the proverbs. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So the opening paragraph of the book of Proverbs tells you it's a little, it's like a publisher's blurb on the back of the book.

It's Proverbs of Solomon, son of David King of Israel, and then there's a little blurb. It says it's for gaining Huchma and instruction. It's for understanding the words of insight for receiving instruction in prudent or like shrewd behavior for doing what is right and just as fair. This book's for giving prudence to the simple knowledge and discretion to the young. Let the wise listen and add to their learning,

let the discerning get more guidance. This books for understanding proverbs and parables and riddles of the wise. And there's actually in chapter 30, there's a whole collection of four to six-line riddles. Do you want to hear one? Or riddle? Yeah. Here's a riddle from chapter 30 verses 15 and 16. There are three things that are never satisfied. Four that never say enough. The grave, the barren womb, land which is never sated by water and fire, which never says enough.

That's it. That's the riddle. So the riddle is to say there are four things that consume. That consume, but they're different. Like the grave is this inevitable thing. It consumes all humans. Yeah, we're all hidden there. So the barren womb,

it's like the opposite of the grave. Yeah. It's the beginning place of life, but that also does not produce. Yeah. And then there's land, land that has no water. Not like not all the rainwater in the world.

So it's like a womb that's the reason. That's the reason. We'll ever make it productive and then fire Which is like the grave more. Yeah, it's interesting everything. Let's the riddle. Yeah There are three things that are too amazing for me Four that I don't understand the way of an eagle in the sky the way of a snake on a rock The way of the ship on the high seas and the way of a snake on a rock, the way of the ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a young woman.

Pfft. Ha ha ha ha ha. I don't get it. Yeah, exact. Are these wonderful? You have to stop and think about them. I mean. So like a eagle crossing the sky, this is all about motion.

Okay. Yeah. So Eagle in the sky, this is all about motion. Okay. Yeah. So eagle on the sky, it never flaps its wings. Yeah, how does it get up other? A snake on a rock? It's just, how does it slithering? How does it get there? A ship on the high seas? How does that little thing move across those huge waves?

Okay. And then how on earth does a brute stinky man get a woman? Ever find favor with the elegant, beautiful woman? Is that what he's talking about? I think that's, but I guess it's not odd that a woman would ever want to be with a man.

Yeah. I think that's kind of what, because think the ego, anyway, there's an element of proverbs that's playful too. Of like using your mind to think about strange things in life. And so that's useful for wisdom in that it's just helping you understand the world more.

Yeah, I think about it differently. Yeah, think about things differently to think about. There's always more complexity than I ever realized. There's always new things to put in. There's more connections to things. Yeah, that's right. Vantage points that are gonna help you understand things better, make better decisions.

Yeah. So those are like the riddles, but then there's just straight up, don't do this, that's a foolish thing to do. Yeah, the vast majority. Don't lie to people, that's foolish. Tell the truth. That's a foolish thing to do. Yeah, the vast majority. Don't lie to people, that's foolish. Tell the truth, that's great. That'll, you do well.

But that's not how they do it. That's like the 10 commandments. Proverbs are saying. Well, they'll do it, yeah, they'll have a, it'll be better than that. Yeah, we'll just say an evil person ends up like this, but the wise person, it'll be like this. Yeah.

So again, it's, they are painting a picture of how the world works. And then you read the proverb and you go, oh, I want to be like the wise man, not like the fool. Yeah. So I'm going to get to work and deal with Ox poop and be diligent and not be lazy and tell the truth. Yeah.

So all these riddles and proverbs and what else does he call them poems is in there. Like, he was a list of things. They all are taking Hokma and putting it into these zangs, these ideas, wrapping them up, these memes, and giving them to you. Yeah, the book of the book of proverbs, it's hundreds and hundreds of these sayings that just take every topic in life you could possibly imagine, and then running them through the grid of the law of Hochemah that runs the universe. What was helpful for me is it's not about knowing every single proverb and making sure you're always checking off a list of proverbs as you're going through life.

As much as it is respecting Hokema. Because, I, I, I think about this way, what makes this woman so wise, right? It's, yeah, she knows all these proverbs, but what really makes her wise is she knows... She's always looking for Hokema. And she sees the Hokema in the proverbs. And she knows why that proverb is a proverb because she knows the underlying Hokema. And then so she can apply it to the right situation and know when you need to use it. So it's not so much about like, hey, read all these proverbs and just like do-um.

That's right. It's about understand and interact with the Hokema underneath of it. Yeah, that's why there's a famous pair of proverbs right next to each other that offer the exact opposite advice. Right. That's really interesting. It's in chapter 26.

So verse four of chapter 26 says, don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you'll become just like him. So that makes sense. There's some people who actually aren't looking for it. Someone's foolish enough. It's not worth getting in the conversation. Yeah. They're not looking for it.

They're not open-minded. Yeah. You're just looking to learn, they're not open-minded. Yeah, you're just gonna get drawn into a stupid debate. So don't even bring it up. But then the very next proverb is, answer a fool according to his folly, or else he'll become wise in his own eyes. So it tells you to do the opposite thing.

Answer the fool and tell him that he's wrong. And that he shouldn't do or say that. Or else he's going to go on thinking that that's an okay thing to do or say. So what do you do? Are you supposed to answer a fool according to his follow or not answer a fool according to his follow? One of my Hebrew professors, Michael Fox, who actually wrote a majestic two volume commentary

on proverbs in the anchor Bible series. I spent all semester, all year reading the wisdom books with him in class. It was an absolute privilege. So he always liked this example. For him, he developed a metaphor that the proverbs are like a pocket full of change. We don't really use change so that much anymore. Yeah. Dimes and nickels and so on, but it's like a change.

And you just need to pull and apply each one depending on what the situation requires. Right. So there's a different underlying hookma that you need to understand. Yeah, so you have no, also have hookma to know which proverb is relevant to what situation in life. Because sometimes it might mean the exact opposite response.

Because it's easy to go to Proverbs and say, this is how I should do it. I'm going to do it and just treat it as a rule book of sorts. I just love when we talk about Hokma and we talk about understanding it and seeing it, it just gets me really excited versus like memorize all these proverbs. Yes. Which to me is like the life hack thing. It's like, okay.

Yeah. Like, if I just do these things, my life will go better. And I don't know exactly why. And I just have to trust them and I'll check them off and I'll just apply them versus no, these things are interesting because they all come from hope. And this is something that the fabric of the universe was blue printed on.

It's an attribute of God and you can actually interact with it. It requires you to become responsible and wise yourself to know what the right course of action is in any given moment. We've talked about Hokema, we've talked about Lady Wisdom, we've talked about how it's a force and you need to interact with it to design a life That's good for yourself and for others, like a craftsman. But at that point, just go, that sounds great. Let's go. Let's do this.

Like, I want a good life. I'm excited about this force. I'm excited about Hokema. I want to start looking for it. I'm going to start designing my life. I'm going to start writing books about how to live the good life with Hoke Ma and like, you know, I'm going to just jump in head first. But I need to be careful because I could actually get in trouble with this eagerness for wisdom.

Yeah, the book of Proverbs is also aware of the fact that humans can become what they would call wise in their own eyes. That we can somehow end up thinking we're using hoch maa and think we're making the right decision, but actually we've deceived ourselves and we've become the fool. And this is where the moral component especially comes in. And this is where the concept of the fear of the Lord comes in. There's an opening line in Proverbs that says, actually the beginning of Hochma is to fear the Lord. It's a very interesting line. So the way Hochma is described in Proverbs isn't simply life hacking. It involves it's being aware that when you're doing

Hokhma, you are honoring and humbling yourself before not a force but a person God who has a vision of good and evil that might be inconvenient for me. But Hokhma is to recognize I don't get to term in good and evil for myself. I need to fall in line with how the universe works, which is according to God's definition of good evil. So the danger is when you're seeking after Hokma aggressively, just idealistically, like, I'm going to get it, is that it's human nature. It's a human condition to, if it's something is convenient for me, I'm going to figure out a way for it to feel like wisdom,

or to be perceived as wisdom. And I will fool myself quite easily, and not even realize I'm doing it. I could be chasing hard after wisdom, it could even start to like work out for me, and I'm like, look it, I'm being wise. And then all of a sudden the curtain pulls away and I realize that's not wisdom. It's not wisdom and I'm getting smacked around.

And so what's happened there is that you've violated the fear of the Lord, or as it says in chapter 3, to fear the Lord is to shun evil. So something wise is to be a productive human and accumulate resources so that you can take care of yourself and other people. So let's say you're a business owner and it's wise to make good business decisions, to increase profits so you can take care, pay a good salary, whatever to your employees. And then you realize like, oh, you know, there's this tax loophole and You know if I just kind of work this angle we can totally cut corners on all of this. If I lie about this

If I lie and kind of bend these numbers nobody will ever know or I could accumulate more and it's gonna hurt these people Mm-hmm indirectly, but or directly. Yeah, but yeah, but I'm supposed to be productive, so I'm going to do it. Yeah, so you can end up fulfilling one thing that you think is a good, but you end up compromising and doing evil in some other area to accomplish the good. And in Proverbs, that's foolishness because you're lacking integrity, you're acting without honesty. And so you've actually played the fool in your effort to become wise. So someone came and said, I am wise. Look at how well I'm doing in life or look at these decisions. But I'm doing those things while compromising a lot of morals.

Then, yeah. Then Proverbs would say, no, actually not being wise. You're full. You're full. And it's because you did not begin with fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord. Yeah. I mean, a classic example in the American work culture is just the culture of overwork. So you have high achieving people whose personal lives

are a disaster. They've built a great company, or they've really put the department into good order, and but the lack they don't spend any time with their kids, and they don't. So they've actually, they're acting foolishly, because they haven't achieved balance So they've actually, they're acting foolishly because they haven't achieved balance between work and life and relationships.

So you see why is it work? And then you go home and you realize that that person's a fool. And it's so easy to do that. It's so easy for anyone to miss, just completely missed. It's like we have this incredible ability to, let me say we, I mean, me, everyone to justify things. Yeah, yeah, it comes like when we elevate some goal

as the ultimate good, and therefore other things can get compromised to accomplish that thing. It's kind of the biblical vision of idolatry. Yeah. Once you make something in ultimate thing, then you'll be willing to dehumanize yourself and others in the effort to accomplish that. And you'll convince yourself, it's not. You'll convince yourself that it's good. Yeah. And wise. Yeah. And noble. And this is connected then to this whole idea

of the knowledge of good and evil. Yes. Yeah. The fear of the Lord is to shun evil. Is, you know, a core part of the world. But to shun, but not just that, but to kind of relinquish your definition of good. Your definition, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So if we go back to the truth and all this good evil is this idea of God defines what's good and evil, or do we define what's good and evil? And when we define good and evil, we will make evil things good. It just will happen. We aren't capable of holding that line and knowing how to do that. Yeah. We just will happen. We aren't capable of holding that line and knowing how to do that.

We'll deceive ourselves, we'll make other idols more important and we'll cut corners. Sometimes purposefully and often times unconsciously. Yeah, that's right. That's the depiction know, in the Exodus story where it has become good to kill babies of immigrant people to protect his people, to protect his people. And so that's, yes, the human inclination to maximize pleasure and minimize pain for me and mine. And if that's at the expense of you and years, but at least I've increased good for me in mine.

And it's not just one political part of the political spectrum, you know, that's doing this. And it's not just one type of personality to this. It's like we all do this. That's right. And so in order to truly be wise and not screw it up, I have to respect and fear that at the end of the day, God's perspective is what I am looking for and want to uphold. And that's fear of the Lord.

Yeah. One of the most well-known lines from the earlier chapters of Proverbs are from the Father to the Son saying, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him and He will make your path straight. Don't be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord and shun evil. The whole thing is, you're going to have a way that seems right to you.

There'll be decisions that make sense to you, but you should just always be suspicious of your motives. Yeah. And always check yourself against what God has told us is right and wrong. Now God hasn't given us instructions about everything. This is a lot of ambiguity in life. Yeah. So this is another whole thing. If you have internalized what the fear of the Lord is in the very clear scenarios that begins to give you a true North in others, and that suspicion, there's a great proverb, 16-2, all the person's ways seem pure to themselves, but motives are weighed by the Lord. Such a good one. So it's just by nature we're like, yes, surely.

By making the right decision and for the right reasons. So there's a skill to be developed in discerning being suspicious of myself and turning the wisdom of others to know what the right way forward is. So the fear of the Lord is what I call the moral logic of Hokhma. It's recognizing there might be all kinds of skilled choices that I can make, but if they are violating my moral compass,

then they become stupid and foolish. We have a friend who recently changed real estate, so they changed companies because like dishonesty and how they posted how they like posted listings of houses and the information given about houses like the basic practice was always to just misrepresent the reality of the property and she was just so she just couldn't take it anymore yeah and so she see switched companies to at least a company where that That's fear that's where the Lord. Yeah, that's the fear of the Lord. Yeah, that was a wise decision Even though the company she left was extremely profitable But she just her conscious couldn't hang with it so the book of Proverbs would say that's the why even if it involved a pay cut

But that's still the wise decision. The Book of Proverbs would go as far to say, and you will prosper for that. The Book of Proverbs will go on to say, allow me to quote, my son, don't prosper three. Don't forget my teaching, keep my wisdom in your heart. They will prolong your life many years, bring

you peace and prosperity. Later on, don't be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord in Cheneval, like my friend did. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. Yeah, who needs vitamin D? Just like fear the Lord in Cheneval? You're going to have a lot of resources. You have a very healthy body.

Yeah. You're going to live lot of resources. You have a very healthy body. You're gonna live a long time. Yeah. Yeah. And we should take, and that's what it's really saying. That's core to the book of Proverbs, is that wise choices over the long haul will produce a good life.

You'll acquire financial resources. Yes. And healthy, wealthy and wise. Yeah, healthy, wealthy, and wise. Yeah, healthy, wealthy, and wise. I mean, it's just you just read it anywhere in the book. If you go with the grain of the universe, you're going to end up in a good spot.

We talked about this, because obviously, we could step out of this for a second and say, well, not always like Job or Ecclesiastes, right? Sure, but let's stay in it for a second. Yeah. The person who works really hard and earns a reputation for honesty and integrity will more likely produce resources by the decades of hard work. Yeah.

Then the person who skims and cheats their way into wealth. Yeah. I'm not an old man, but my hunch is that that's how things tend to work. Or at least they ought to work. There is definitely a feeling that it ought to work that way. Yes. We celebrate when things turn out that way. That's right. But Proverbs doesn't just say it ought to work that way. It says it will. It says this is how things will work out. Yeah. Yeah. And... And that's why for says, this is how things will work out. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's why for us, the character is kind of a young, idealistic person because when you're young, you realize this is how it should work. Yes. I'm going to go fix things because I know in the fabric of the universe, like this is how it's worked. And you can pay attention and point to people and stories and relatives or whoever, that that's how it worked for them. Yeah.

They worked hard. They produced wealth, they were able to. Now another way to think about this is just odds, right? Like, more likely than not. Yes, sure. This will work out for you. So if you do these things over the long haul over and over, it'll work out for you.

You're playing the odds, you're playing statistics. You're in for the long game and the short run, you know, who knows what'll happen, but in the long run, you do it enough, this is going to be success. And this is, yeah, part of my shorthand talking about this, is just to say, this is after all the book of Proverbs, not the book of promises. But it says it's a promise. But they are framed as very strong claims. They are.

Elf you're proud? Yes. But by nature, a Proverb is accumulated wisdom about how life tends to go. Yeah. So I'm not trying to water down the powerful a proverb is accumulated wisdom about how life tends to go. So I'm not trying to water down the powerful persuasiveness of this. I think we need to end with this real excitement

for the persuasiveness of it. Yeah, it's like you just discovered a secret key. Yeah, right. Well, ho-k-ma. Yeah, because it is true. Ho come exists. And it will make your life rad when you design your life with it. And then we could stop there and we could celebrate. Yep. And and actually benefit a lot. But that's not where the story yeah ends when it comes our journey with what's right? Yeah, the wisdom literature doesn't

only say that To other voices speak up Ecclesiastes speaks up and he'll say excuse me proverbs It does sometimes work like that, but can I point out exhibit a B C D F G? Where it just the opposite right down then Job says, yeah, actually, that was me. That happened to me. Didn't work out for me. And here's what I've learned from that. So it's by hearing all three of these voices that we truly become wise. It's the surprising message of the wisdom books of the Bible.

There's nothing else like them. They're remarkable. I'll remind you of the day. You are just a boy. I'm trying to change. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Bible Project podcast. I'm John Collins. And that was a conversation with Tim Mackie on the book of Proverbs, where co-founders of the Bible Project, we create a lot of free videos and put them up on YouTube

for people to watch so that you can learn the big picture of Scripture and see how it's a unified story that leads to Jesus and has profound wisdom for this modern world. You can watch all the videos for free. They're on YouTube, YouTube.com slash the Bible project. You can also download the videos off of our website for free and use them in your church, at home, and in school. They're used all over the world for a lot of things. We're so glad that you're a part of this, listening to these podcasts.

If you enjoy them, you can share them with others, put a review on iTunes, follow us on Twitter at Joint Bible Proj and say hi to us on Facebook. Facebook.com slash the Bible project. Next time we will jump into the book of Ecclesiastes. It's gonna be heavy. Thanks for being a part of this with us. Try to protect me. Leaving all your man, just another crack in this. Now you are the shoulder, please take a test.

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