Big Ideas Lab - Discovery Science at NIF

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

At Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s National Ignition Facility, scientists recreate the most extreme conditions in the universe. Through the Discovery Science Program, researchers and students from around the world gain rare access to this machine to run experiments that exist for only a fraction of a second, yet reshape what we know about stars, planets, and matter itself. These experiments don’t just explore the cosmos; they create a shared laboratory for discovery and the training ground for the next generation of scientists who will evaluate the safety, security and effectiveness of our nation’s nuclear deterrence.Guests featured (in order of appearance): Dan Kalantar, Chief Systems Engineer for Experimental Systems at NIF, LLNLTilo Doeppner, Experimental Physicist at NIF, LLNL--Big Ideas Lab is a Mission.org original series. Executive Produced by Levi Hanusch.Script by Caroline Kidd.Sound Design, Music Edit and Mix by Matthew Powell. Story Editing by Levi Hanusch. Audio Engineering and Editing by Matthew Powell. Narrated by Matthew Powell. Video Production by Levi Hanusch.Brought to you in partnership with Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In a laboratory for the first time, the nearest star to the Earth was in California. There's no place on Earth like the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's National Ignition Facility. NIF or the National Ignition Facility is the world's largest must energetic laser. A laser with reactions once thought unachievable that have been achieved again and again. Shot director. Ready. Back in December, California scientists made a major breakthrough. A nuclear fusion reaction that produced more energy than was used to create us.

Well, scientists have done it again, and this time their results produced even more energy. And while these scientific advances are groundbreaking, they only highlight part of the story. Something else is going on at NIF. There have been experiments where the results were surprising. There are topics. being studied that impact our understanding of the universe. In these experiments, diamonds collapse under pressure so dense that they recreate the interiors of Jupiter and Saturn.

Shockwaves tear through targets at speeds faster than sound, mimicking the aftermath of exploding stars. Ice rearranges itself into unfamiliar forms only found inside worlds millions of miles away. At NIF, matter collapses, transforms, and behaves in ways that cannot be recreated anywhere else on the planet. Extreme reactions like this are fundamental to helping Lawrence Livermore scientists understand our nuclear weapons, a research area of paramount importance to the nation. But access to these extreme conditions doesn't stop with Lawrence Livermore scientists.

It extends to the next generation of researchers. Through a single program, tomorrow scientists are given access to conditions at the edge of physics alongside the people who built the experiment itself. Can you do it again? Absolutely. This is Discovery Science at NIF. Welcome to the Big Ideas Lab, your exploration inside Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Hear untold stories, meet boundary-pushing pioneers, and get unparalleled access inside the gates. From national security challenges to computing revolutions,

discover the innovations that are shaping tomorrow today. A few nanoseconds is all it takes to crush, ignite, or distort matter into its rarest forms. At the National Ignition Facility, a laser system the size of a football stadium makes those conditions possible. Each experiment shrinks the hidden mechanisms of planets and stars down to something scientists can build, measure, and test. Thanks to the Discovery Science Program, these experiments aren't confined to the walls of NIF. Access is open far beyond the laboratory itself. There is no limit as to who can submit a proposal. That's Dan Kalantar, the chief systems engineer for experimental systems at NIF. The Discovery Science Program at NIF is focused on external and internal users proposing

and competing for NIF experimental time. It brings in outside users. It allows for collaboration between laboratory employees and academics from external institutions, both within the United States and internationally. It provides an interaction and partnership. Participation isn't limited by a Lawrence Livermore badge. Any qualified scientist can bring their ideas to the laser.

Are collaborating with scientists outside the lab, the best scientists in the field improves overall the laboratory's expertise. We have that open exchange, we have that opportunity to interact with other scientists, we have the benefit of that mutual information, investigation, and knowledge base. For students, it's a direct path into the frontiers of high-energy density science. It also provides an opportunity for graduate students at outside institutions, universities, to participate in experiments, to see what the laboratory is about, to learn how to do an experiment at NIF. And in many cases, those graduate students become postdocs and become staff members of the lab. It's partly a pipeline for

staff as the lab looks to the future. Gaining access to NIF is competitive. Only around 40% of proposed experiments are accepted and they're planned months in advance. a proposal being accepted and an experiment taking place. It takes on the order of 12 to 18 months. Only the experiments with the potential to make a real impact across physics, astrophysics, or planetary science ever make it in. Do we think this is executable? What level of resources does it take?

Can we support it? But once the experiment begins, meticulous planning gives way to something else entirely. Months of modeling. Years of design, endless simulations, careful calculations. All of it collapses into a single moment. The moment the laser fires. And suddenly the experiment is no longer about what was supposed to happen.

It's about what actually did. Whether the diagnostic survived the explosion they're built to measure. Whether the data comes back clean enough to observe. whether matter behaves the way decades of physics predict or reveals behavior no one expected. For Tilo Doppler, this is the moment his work is tested. NIF is the only facility where you, one, can create these states of matter, and two, have the capability to measure them with the precision we do. Tilo Doppler is an experimental physicist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

My main scientific interest is in developing X-ray-Thompson scattering as a diagnostic for dense plasmas. When scientists need to observe things at the molecular level, precision measurement is the only way forward. X-ray Thompson scattering does just that. And developing diagnostics like it is a core part of the Discovery Science program. It's a very challenging diagnostic because the cross-section for the X-ray scattering process, is very small. You essentially send about one megajoule of laser energy onto a target into a volume of about one cubic centimeter. You essentially heat it up and blow it apart. When the x-rays pass through the plasma, a tiny fraction scatters, changing direction and shifting energy.

And you can look at these photographs where the whole target chamber is lightning up. And from that, We collect on order 10,000 to 50,000 X-Ray photons and measure them. The detected X-rays contain valuable information about the plasma, like temperature, density, ionization, and electron motion. Each photon is a clue to forces no one else can see. Really curious and interesting states. The same process governs how radiation from inside the sun can properly. It's like an initial confinement fusion experiment. The conditions that we can achieve by generating these high pressures are similar to what is thought to exist in outer space, in astrophysical

environments. At the moment of the highest compression, x-rays are scattering from electrons. It's similar to an ambulance passing by. Imagine standing on a street corner as it races toward you. The siren is sharp and piercing. As it speeds past, Aston disappears down the block, the pitch drops and the sound fades. If you scatter off of these electrons due to energy and momentum conservation, there will be an energy shift of the photon that scattered off, similar to when you hear an ambulance approaching you or driving away from you, the frequency of the x-ray photon will be up or downshifted. The upper-down shift is the clue to what's happening inside the plasma, revealing how electrons move

when matter is pushed to its breaking point. But seeing inside an explosion comes with risks. When you shoot a target, it explodes, and hopefully everything is vaporized, but we are sometimes not really sure. And if you create a couple little droplets, they can be very damaging to the diagnostics. We have to really make sure we don't break detectors

because they're only a few of them, and they are obviously very expensive and hard to replace. It would be like trying to take a photograph. Okay, let's see. Put that there. This will be here. From inches away. Ah, this is way too close.

While a firework explodes in your face. How am I going to light? Ah! Dang it! Without scratching the lens. Designing and building a new plasma diagnostic for NIF can take a very long time. So there was a lot of iteration, how you build the entrance window to make sure it withstands anything that could come from the target.

I remember that took a lot of work. They run large-scale simulations and can estimate what's emanating from that explosion and then design mitigation strategies for those and then gets tested on one or two shots and you take pictures of the debris shields after the shot and make sure they behaved as expected. The whole process, I'd say, took probably two years, maybe three years.

It's a process that could only exist because the Discovery Science Program allows risk, iteration, and external collaboration. It ensures that future experiments are possible, allowing scientists to return to the machine shot after shot, trusting that it will fire consistently. That commitment to precision didn't begin with the first experiment. It was built into the Discovery Science program, from the very start. I have been involved with NIF

since, well, actually since NIF didn't even exist. I have had experiences where, for example, I participated in a walk around to survey electrical grounding and shielding. In the Target Bay, before the Target Bay, had concrete port, which meant climbing, scaffolding, 80 feet up because there were no stairwinds. NIF was built with extraordinary care,

care so that diagnostics could survive explosions. so that matter could be accurately measured at its breaking point, so that shock predictions could be trusted. All this for data that could serve planetary discovery and, in turn, national security. These diagnostics that help us understand the interiors of stars also help shape the materials we depend on here on Earth. It's related to stockpile stewardship interests. Having confidence in our predictive capabilities through theoretical modeling

is crucial for making predictions. There were a number of experiments that were done under the Discovery Science program, looking at equation of state of materials with a velocity interferometer, looking at the state of materials using what we refer to as the TARDIS, or in-situ X-ray diagnostic, and looking at temperature and density conditions by Thompson scattering. Each of those has interest in a way. wide variety of configurations and conditions and has been used for many programmatic experiments as

well. The science that bends matter under unimaginable pressures also helps safeguard the tools and technologies we rely on. And once the experiment ends, the lessons continue, passed on to the next generation. I personally really enjoy this interaction, mentoring young scientists, and I enjoy watching them succeed and making progress in their career, helping them to write papers and possibly getting hired or getting postdoc positions, not only at the lab, but also otherwise. One of my first postdocs that I mentored was part of developing that X-ray Thompson

scheduling platform. And after two and a half years, he moved back to Germany and he's now a professor. Every time you get one of these summer interns and you see that glowing in their eyes reminds me what awesome stuff we are doing. The National Ignition Facility enables scientists to recreate the interiors of planets, probe the physics of stars, and push matter beyond the limits of theory. The Discovery Science Program opens that capability to researchers and students beyond the lab, creating new opportunities for collaboration, experimentation, and discovery. The result?

New scientists, shaped by the research. rare chance to test ideas where theory meets reality at the only facility in the world built to do it. Thank you for tuning in to Big Ideas Lab. If you loved what you heard, please let us know by leaving a rating and review. And if you haven't already, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app to keep up with our latest episode. Thanks for listening.