Big Technology Podcast - Crypto Scams, Big Tech Tumult, and Tech Optimism— With Kara Swisher

Episode Date: February 11, 2022

Kara Swisher is the co-founder of Recode, a New York Times columnist, the co-host of Pivot, and the host of Sway. She joins BigTechnology Podcast for a special edition tackling the biggest tech headlines, her major career decisions, and reasons to be optimistic about technology. Kara and Scott Galloway are hosting Pivot MIA, a three-day event in Miami, from Feb. 14 - Feb. 16. You can learn more here: https://voxmediaevents.com/pivotmia

Hello and welcome to the big technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversations, of the tech world and beyond. Well, we are very lucky today because the world's best tech journalist is joining us for an hour-long conversation about the world of tech. We'll talk a little bit about the way that she does interviews in her business and then round it up. out, you know, maybe looking at some optimistic things about tech. We don't hear about that too often. So I'll ask her about it. Kara Swisher is in the studio with us. Well, technically zooming in from Washington, D.C.

Welcome, Kara. Great to have you here. Thanks. Thanks for being here. I'm not the best, but go ahead. Move along. I don't know, Carrie. I'm the longest running.

How about that? The best over the longest period of time would be the only thing. Sounds good. Consistently good. That's fine. Yeah. And you have a conference coming up. It's called Pivot MIA with Scott.

Galloway, February 14th to 16th, it's going to be in Miami, not too late to register. So I encourage people to go check it out. It's our first year. So it's sort of like the first year of code, which was 20 years ago, if you can believe it. So we're trying to form something new and different, a little more future facing, a little more on topics like crypto and NFTs and where finance and media are going and stuff like that, more like what Pivot talks about. It's going to be funnier and a little sexier, probably, I guess it's Miami.

How can you not be? Yeah, it'll be exciting. Yeah. And I do love the duo of you and Scott together. Scott's been on the show. Yeah, it's always fun to listen to you guys. So I'm sure the live event will be, you know, just as exciting if not more. Or just totally awkward.

Anyway, we'll see. We're trying our best. Yeah, it'll be fun. The entrepreneurial. Yeah, we'll get to it in the second segment. But I love, one of the thing that I love about watching your career is that you, you know, you are experimental and are willing to try different things where, you know, in the journalism industry, it's a lot of like do the same and you know uh well we'll talk about in the second segment but you

did mention crypto so why don't we start with that um we have this big headline that there was a couple that was arrested and 3.6 billion dollars of bitcoin that was illicitly obtained and they were trying to longer it was sees all alleged right now but doesn't look very good for this couple my perspective is that this is maybe a good thing for bitcoin i saw a lot of people who are pro Bitcoin tweeting the Justice Department's line that Bitcoin is no safe haven for criminals. Obviously, they tracked down the people who had stolen this money with the blockchain. And, you know, there are some people who might say this is bad for the, you know, because it makes it seem like criminals use Bitcoin, but again, the fact that they were caught

probably a good thing. What's your perspective? You know, reminds me of the early internet. Is it bad or it good or is it misused by malevolent players? Sure. All of these technologies are. So is the telephone. I'm not comparing it to the telephone because this is quantumly more powerful and difficult to track.

But I think the problem is a lot of the early Bitcoin Accolites, they could do no wrong. It could do no wrong. And that's not true. All these technologies have their various pluses and minuses. And I think one of the things they keep in mind that the first Internet was full of grifters, like full of grifters. And actually, Michael Wolfe wrote a very good book about this. He even called him, sort of, was calling himself a grifter in a lot of ways that the book wrote. And so it was like that then. And, you know, you've seen, you know, different various

Ponzi schemes and various things. You know, AOL got in trouble for round-tripping, you know, all the way up until today with these social platforms being gamed by malevolent players. And so this is not a fresh new idea that technology gets abused. I think you've got to look at the what it's happening and separate it from the hucksters and the grifters and the self-promoters and the promoters. I think they just get enthusiastic at the beginning and they're going to be eventually washed out by more substantive companies that are trying really hard to make this a thing. And I think that it just reminds me so much of the earlier net because I'm old, I remember. And at the time, there was one story after the next about how email scams and this scam and that scam. And so it's not so much

different. It's just the issue is it's so close related to finance, which is a highly regulated industry, especially in governments have particular concerns around it, that you're going to see a lot more regulation a lot quicker, and they're very aware of it, especially around criminal activity, as they should be. The argument is that Bitcoin has been known as like fairly untraceable and anonymous. And now that such a large fraud has been caught, it almost gives people more confidence that this is a legitimate financial tool because you can be busted if you except what's not caught, right? What hasn't been caught, what hasn't been done, including the difficulty of people using it. I mean, I have a joke. I was writing about Bitcoin really early

and hadn't written about a lot since then. But when, I guess, Vensis Casaris was kind of turned me on to it and said, this is really interesting. And I wrote about it and I bought Bitcoin and I've lost my thumb drive. It was on or something. Whatever it was on, I bought it. It's gone. I don't, you know what I mean? And I don't like misplace gold or cash or anything like maybe I have. That's not true. But I think it's really, you know, I think the difficulty level of understanding it as it gets easy. Same thing with the internet until AOL come along. The internet was really hard to use for most people. And it wasn't consumer friendly. And so I think it'll be interesting if there's use cases of all different kinds and which I don't think we've conceived

of what they could be yet. And that's going to be super interesting, I think. Yeah, I was just down in El Salvador for a wedding and they've made it legal tender. Well, in those countries they need it, right? Those countries. It's really hard to operate. Um, you know, that makes, that's what Wednesday is from. I can't remember Brazil or Venezuela or something. Anyway, it was much harder to use there where he was than it was. You know, I mean, these are countries that had had currencies that were up and down and this and that. And so people were losing their life savings. And that was one of the impetus of it was for that, which was interesting. Yeah. And it was interesting watching them, you know, in everyday transactions going to the market. For instance, people running markets out of their, out of their, um, you. Yeah. You know, their living rooms, and they have a QR card out front. Right. But the problem is government doesn't like control of money. That's a real problem.

Government likes to control money. Like, I don't know. I don't give that one up so easily. So that'll be interesting. And, you know, I think anything is easy. I was talking, someone was talking about money. I like cash. And I was like, when's the last time you saw your cash?

You didn't. It's a number on a figure on a bank statement. You don't ever, you don't have like a, like a, I always say you don't have like, you don't have like, you know, I mean, Gringots, they everybody had their little, caves full of money or whatever all those different wizards and so you don't have like this vault where your stuff is like your you know your goblets of gold or whatever some people do I guess but most people have never seen their money they live they live in a in a digital currency environment all the time I don't care it's all unwrapping maybe I have a five

no same here on me somewhere and every time someone asks him like what all right you know right and I wish I could have some and then you go My phone could tip someone, right? Right. You know, anyway. Well, I mean, you know, you can even see Busters in the subway now with their Venmos. Oh, do they? On their piece of cardboard.

Here's my VEMO, right? Like, what is the way to do it? It's really hard. There has to be something, some way you can trade value in a way that's a lot, probably via phone, most likely. Right. Okay. I want to get to another big story, which is the Peloton situation. The Peloton CEO is out.

They're going to lay off around 3,000 people. He put himself out. He had control. Put himself out. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, there was this fun instance where activist investors basically made a slide presentation telling him why he should fire himself. And he listed Matt Levina, something great on that this week at Bloomberg.

And they replaced him with a CFO. And you say, former tech CFO, a CEO says a lot. What does it say? It reminded me of sale. I mean, first of all, this guy is great. He's got great, you know, I was talking, I dealt with him a little bit. You don't deal with the CFO as much as a real. reporter, but terrific reputation, knows subscriptions, very well regarded. Everyone has nothing

but lovely things to say, which was a surprise because everybody always has something bad to say about someone, but at both the companies, Netflix and Spotify. So this guy knows his stuff and he really knows subscriptions and the important brand and, you know, he's got the experience. Sometimes CFOs like to leap into a CEO position. That's certainly true, but it often says to me, maybe there's a deal here. If there isn't, he will run it. He's an operator, obviously CFOs, even though these sort of get dinged as not being operators. They are. CFOs are usually critically important employees at most companies, especially behind the scenes. So I feel like this is someone who could do a deal or could do the other thing, which is fix it and rehaul it and stuff like

that. So that's why it's interesting to me. Yeah, it's kind of this, it's funny that it's viewed as a tech company. I mean, of course, like, they distribute as a platform, but it really is a media company and exercise equipment. I don't fully understand why the market got so down on Peloton. I mean, yes, the expectations were high. Well, it was a pandemic stock. It had such a surge, right? And the stock went crazy. And everyone, like Zoom or any of the others, with pandemic stock. To me, we had a really interesting Twitter spaces recently about it. And boy, their fans love them. I'm a Peloton use.

I wouldn't give it up. I was talking to Dan Primack about it. He also, same way. And what was interesting is all the people on this Twitter spaces had all kinds of ideas of more stronger relationships they like with Peloton, like healthcare food. That's why Amazon's interesting to me, Nike, clothing, this and that. So people trust the Peloton brand and like the product. And so that's the good thing.

It's a great product. It's a product they like. people they like. It's just got to get in the right place in terms of, you know, serving, selling these devices of which there's only a limited number they can sell, but they still haven't gone global, right? They haven't gone global at all to speak of and see where it goes from there. It's got a lot of potential and they've built a great brand. I think just this is what happens to these, like whether it's, you know, sort of all these devices go through this kind of weird period of difficulty. Right. Yeah. I'm a fan of the company and it almost seems

It seems like unfair. I mean, I know you can't say it's unfair that the stock went up so much, but it did just set these insane expectations. It was crazy. It was crazy stock. Yeah. Speaking of crazy stuff on the stock market, I just had Josh Brown on the show on Wednesday from Ridthold's Wealth Advisors. We talked about the meta drop $250 billion of market cap wiped out. Yeah, it's still up a little bit.

Right. Yeah, and they dropped under $600 billion in market cap. They're sort of hovering. around there. Right, which is, interestingly enough, like the level that you need to be subject to some of these regulations that Congress is cooking up, although it's over a two-year span. Yep. You've been following meta for a long time. Is this company cooked because that's the, yes, Facebook and the meta. The narrative is that they're cooked. They still have 3.59 billion people using

the products every month. Yeah, sure. They're cooked. Whatever. It's like saying Microsoft was cooked back when. I remember when I was like it. I'm like, they are not. I'm sorry. I'd like to be cooked like that. You know, the cut 617 today. It's slightly up. Look, over the five days, down 7% over a month. It's down 30% over six months. It's down 37% year to date, 33, one year, 15%. So it's a nice shave. Today it's up a tiny bit. I think it's hard to dismiss this company, especially with their online advertising business, is really kind of like, hmm, I wouldn't necessarily do that. You know, I mean, especially they've got this many people and they've got a committed CEO who's a well-known entrepreneur. Again, I have quibbles, not quibbles, I have issues

with Mark Zuckerberg, but he's still a talented executive and entrepreneur. I think some of the stuff that hasn't been looked on, obviously the users, and you could see that. If anyone with a teen knows it, like they're not using Instagram. They're using TikTok. They aren't using Facebook. book at all. They'd rather die than use. It's like AOL was. We went through that trough and Denver returned. And, you know, all these things have a life expectancy, essentially. And so that's one thing is the users, is that people don't want to use the big blue app as much. And then, of course, it's been soiled by the whistleblower accusations and January 6th, et cetera. And I think probably when this report comes out, it's not going to look good for Facebook, you know, because

they were sort of the primary organizer. The congressional investigation. I mean, Facebook was the primary organizer of this. If you're using those tools, even compared to Parlor or any, of course, compared to Parlor, well, it was a small player, you know, not great, but it's still a small player compared to Facebook. And that'll sort of shine on me. You've got the FTC investigations and that now can move forward.

Lena Conry filed. And they're moving forward. So there's that, although they can point. to TikTok and say, well, we're not very big anymore and TikTok. That's true. But then TikTok exists. Like, that's an issue, right. Competitors. And then Apple, you know, I think Apple is a really big deal in terms of like what it did. It's the apples become the de facto regulator of Facebook. And when the government couldn't step in, Apple did. So that's another thing. And then obviously meta, metaverse. Like, can they succeed here? This is a lot of money they're spending. They're not particularly creative as a company.

And so, and there's a lot of great competitors in here, and are they going to be the ones to dominate? Oculus is a good product, but it's little, right? It's little. I mean, it's sold a lot, but little kind of thing. And so sort of like Google, I remember when Google started to go into a range of things. Remember, they had lots and lots of stuff, these moonshots, this and that. And all I kept thinking was, you know, it's like sort of being, I hate to use this metaphor, but I was like, it's like being a Colombian drug deal on an opening a restaurant in Bogota. It's like, it's really not going to be your business.

could search. And so search is still Google's business, right? That's really their most strongest business. And no matter how you slice it, and the same thing with, they have to live with the fact that the social network is their business. And then what happens to it. And it's sort of gotten away from itself. Nobody likes them, you know, that kind of, they're not very well lived in Silicon Valley. You know, Teal stepped off the board and did exactly what he thought he do, which is back Trump candidates. What a surprise. You obviously had a big influence on that. You know, good for him, whatever he wants. Whatever Peter Thiel wants to do, he can do with this giant sums of money. There is this, and you've covered Yahoo a lot, there is this view

that Facebook is Yahoo now. But to me, that seems a little premature. Yeah, I would say, I agree. And you know, I'm a real critic of them. But, you know, they're not. It's a really big, big substantive company. It reminds me a little of AOL. I do have to say. Elwell became uncool. And they had all these cool things. Like they had their messaging service. I'm totally blanking. Name, right.

And they had a lot of cool stuff. And they were early in the music area. They just couldn't make the people just moved on. And I think people move on from this thing. It's too much. And by the way, it's not really well. I don't want on it anymore. But every now and then, I'm still, I have an account, right?

But I sort of, what is it, cut it off? I sometimes reactiv. And then I'm like, oh, what a fucking mess this place is. Right. You know what I mean? But a lot of people use it across the globe. That's the important part. And I think that's, we can't discount that.

I don't discount them at all. They're huge. Yeah. And I think that Reels has a much, I mean, I'm writing about that this week in big technology. Reels has a much better future than a lot of people are giving you credit for. I interviewed this, this college student this week who said she went home for break and heard the TikTok music coming from her parents room. And it was just Reels. Reels maybe.

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. So they have the older demographic we can capture. I mean, they're going to have a lot of problems, you know, just like Facebook. TikTok too. Well, Ticketts got China overhang, et cetera, et cetera. Let's talk about that.

Yeah. What do you think about the fact that like, you know, I mean, it seems like everyone seems to celebrate Facebook struggling. And I know this is Facebook's like PR line. But when Facebook struggles, it's generally a win by, you know, win for TikTok. And we can't like, we can't have our eyes closed. to the fact that the Chinese Communist Party has a pretty, I don't. I wrote a whole column years ago saying I read TikTok on my burner phone because I'm worried about this. This was three years ago. I was like, yeah. So, you know, here's the thing. Facebook used it so, so much in a cynical way. But the fact matters, they are their competitor, right? One of, one of their many competitors. And they, it's so creative and so interesting and so well done. And then it's so possibly linked to the Chinese government, right? And it's not, that's a real worry. I bet the government has. to look into that again.

And not in the screaming Trump way. Not in a Trump way. You know, that was stupid. That was just stupid. And then he kept missing opportunities, critical opportunities. This guy was directionally correct and executionally an imbecile. Like, literally, you can't let these people get away. And so one of the things, if they dis, if they separated it from China, which I don't

think the Chinese will let happen, that would be interesting, right? You know, and how do you do that? Well, it would have to be affiliated with a pretty big U.S. company with a lot of cloud cover, so to speak. And so, you know, Microsoft would be a great owner of TikTok still, I think. I think that was the right right. Right. But, you know. You were speaking with Satya and Adela, and basically he talked about how he got ghosted by the Trump administration once he thought there was a deal in the way. I think he was being kind. I think he wanted to say that asshole, but he's not a person that's going to

say that ass. He kind of saw it above his head, God, a bunch of chumps. You know, and also, but it was a good idea. It was a great idea. And now they bought Activision. They're going to be a key player in this Metaverse thing. I think quietly, gaming is the way into this thing, obviously, compared to most things. You know, possibly healthcare, possibly workplace. But gaming sure is already there. You're in a metaverse in a game already. You're used to it. You're, you know, you have your avidars. It's got everything going for it in terms of that. So, you know, gosh, Microsoft with TikTok would be a really powerful situation. Yeah. And it could still happen. I mean, obviously, there's interesting. So we'll see. Yeah. Call us when you're ready. I think they're very interesting.

You, you interview, yeah, sorry, you interviewed Lena Khan recently, the head of the FTC, along with Andrew Osork, and I watched the interview. Really enjoyed it. How, what was your impression of Lena? Oh, so smart. So overwhelmed. I think smart, sharp, knows what she wants to do, doesn't have the resources to do it and doesn't know where to start with all these we talked a lot about the mergers the amount of mergers that were um you know i think it rose some enormous over 4,000 something like that i don't remember the exact number but you know what does she do with those their their budget hasn't increased it's stuck in congressional whatever the heck congress is doing with itself um it doesn't have enough um you know it's got to pick very carefully it can't

lose um it's a raid against a very powerful group of people um and you know know, the energy is hard to sustain. The anti-tech energy is hard to sustain. You don't want to be anti-tech. You want it to be good regulation. And so, you know, she's, I feel like she should make a big move. But, you know, John and Cantor just got there. So they don't got a lot of time, right?

It's going to make things. Right. The midterms are coming out. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of Republicans are very happy to go after Facebook and other big tech companies. So I don't think that, you know, the Texas AG is the one pushing the Google one, right? Right. So it's not necessarily that. It's just what's going to happen and for what reason. You know, you have a different reason from, you know, a persistent numpy like Ted Cruz and a different reason from Mark Warner, etc. Also, you know, I've listened to your podcast. You've spoken about Cheryl Sandberg, your relationship with her. Have you guys spoken recently? And do you think that she's going to stay at Facebook? What's she doing? I'm surprised she's still there, but where is she going to go? She kind of got tarnished, right? She got pulled into.

You know, she's got lots of culpability there, but Mark has most of it. That was my point with her. Like, all right, sure, her, but him. Like, everyone was focused on her and I was a little sexist. That said, she's a very, she's a very, she's the top executive. So all the executives deserve that kind of scrutiny. I have not talked to her lately. I got a text to her not too long ago.

But I think she and I, our relationship is, I would say tense. I wouldn't say tens. She's not that way. Mark won't talk to me at all, or they never respond, and they say no to every request we make. I don't know. You know, Cheryl's a good team player over there, I think. Yeah. I think she's a good team player.

I like Cheryl personally quite a bit, but I do get the criticism of her. And I was quite critical. When we were speaking, I was like, I remember calling her from, I was at JFK right at the beginning when they made that statement when Mark said there's no impact of the Russians on this platform. What are you talking? Remember that when he gave David? That's his name. For Patrick. Yeah. That was pretty crazy. And I call and then they had, then they had another statement with a number. And I remember calling her saying, where did you get this number? Why are you doing this? Don't say, like, I'm of the people like, if you don't have all the facts, I'd keep my mouth shut, right? I don't. And like, like, whether it's Jeff Zucker or whatever, who's today was coming

out next, right? I would be very careful before you have all the facts are in. And, And I recently wrote that to some CNN people. I'm like, you know what? You might want to wait. I get your loyalty to this fella, but you got to wait. Like, you know, I know Jeff Zucker, he's not, you know, a very smart guy, but I don't know. Like, let's wait. Let's wait and see what comes out before declaring something, whatever.

And so I think with, with, I said to her, it was like, why are you really, where did these numbers come from? Why are you saying them? I think it's much more serious. I think it's a political liability. And I remember going, oh, Kara, you're such a worrywart. I'm like, I'm not on your team. I'm just telling you. I just think I don't believe you.

Like, it was an interesting. I'll never forget that conversation. And they were much, they were very much tuttut. Don't you worry, you're aitating journalist kind of thing. And again, I wasn't there to help them. I just was like, why are you saying this? I don't understand where you're getting these facts. And then after a while, I was like, oh, they're making it up, like, or something.

Or they're chaotic is what I thought. And that's always my feeling. Just like what's happening at Spotify, it's chaotic. It's not, they are not. They don't know what they're doing, right? They're like... Because Spotify, it's unbelievable to me. You would think that after being in the media business for so long,

they're paying for a guy's podcast. Now, look, I think there's an argument to be made, let Joe Rogan, you know, be the devil's advocate to the health establishment and hasn't gotten it, right? Okay, sure. I don't know if I would pay for, I wouldn't pay for that. I just think with Spotify... Yeah. With Spotify, you got to embrace what you are.

I know what he is. But I don't think they listen to him. I have now decided they didn't listen to him. Like, that's what I, I didn't listen to him that much. You know what I mean? Like, who has four hours to kill on a given day? Right. So, you know, it's, I listen to a lot of it more than most people. Very talented podcaster at the same. And he's good. He's good. Yeah. met here, you know, but they didn't listen to them. And now they're trying to pretend like, we have nothing to do. What are you talking about? Like that's sort of, you know, it's amazing. It's sort of like, oh, come on, stop. Like, please die.

I literally, I'm sort of like, I think I texted several people, please stop, please stop. It's really, it's embarrassing what you're doing now. Like, and then I, but then I decide it's chaotic. It's chaotic. It's what it is. There's no, like, secret, like, handshake situation. It's just like, what do we? do? Like, that's why I can see that meeting. Like, ugh. Ah. You know, that's the kind of thing. I

imagine is going on inside of their company right now. It just feels like they're so unprepared to handle some of this stuff. They're like, we are not a. They don't think about it. Yeah. Assume, not a discern the worst, assume that they don't, that they're lazy and they don't think about it. That's what I know assume about a lot. Not everybody. Some people are truly malevolent, but others are just, just don't think about it. So. And then get victimized. And then get victimized because there are victims. The richest people in the world, they really are the victims. Oh, they love. I do love to play that card. Kara Swisher is with us. She's the host of Sway columnist of the New York Times. Co-founder of Recode. Don't forget to check out Pivot MIA. It's February's 14 to 16 next week that you can still register or follow along online. Some great names there. Brian Teske is going to be their CEO of Airbnb. You also have. Meredith Levitt Coppian, who runs the New York Times and a bunch of other speakers.

So check it out. After the break, I want to talk to Carrot a little bit about her own media company decisions. So if you're a media nerd, stick around. And, you know, we're also going to get into some of her reporting technique, which I'm sure you've witnessed. If you care at all about the tech world, you've probably watched many of Kara's interviews. So stick around. We'll be back right after this. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about the Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than 2 million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative

takes on business and tech news. Now, they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily Show, where their team of writers break down the biggest business headlines in 15 minutes or less, and explain why you should care about them. So, search for The Hustle Daily Show and your favorite podcast app, like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on big technology podcast with Kara Swisher. She's the host of Sway New York Times podcast. Also going to host Pivot MIA with Scott Galloway, a friend of the show on February 14th to 16th in Miami.

I'm sure a lot of good stuff is going to come out of that. Okay, Kara, I want to learn a little bit about the media business from you over the next segment. You started Recode in January 2014, with Walt Mossberg, a new site to cover the the tech industry. If you're going to start out your own company today, would you, would you go with the website or would you do a substack type of thing? Would you go straight to podcasts? You have two, you know, very popular podcasts. What would your approach be? Well, you know, we were doing what substack is due. I love people like, this is all new. I'm like, mm, mm, WordPress, live, what's that live? What was it live? Live, something. Live intent, live. I forgot. Yeah, right.

It's live intent. I don't remember. Anyway, there were a lot of these. What we were doing was piecing it together with what existed at the time. You know, at one point, I said, Walt, you and I should do something on a video service where we argue with each other. Like now, of course, Rod Zancaster or Riverside or Zoom, it didn't exist. We were like, how do we do this? How do we get it up? How do we publish it?

Like, there was nothing then going on. And that's why we went to live events kind of thing. We would have done a lot of this in video. You know, there's nothing new under the sun, right? That's what I'm saying. And I think that I would, right now, I kind of, I'm one of a person who changes really frequently. There's an expression I think in Mary Poppins. I'll wait until the wind changes and then I'll leave, essentially.

And so I'm like that. I'm like, I started podcasting seven, eight years ago, right? Or a long time ago in podcast terms. Maybe it was long in that. Because I was really interested in the fact that the iPhone made it possible to do this really easily. And I'm like, I had an interest, just me and an internet. Noah Cole one, who's now rights for various things, but it was the two of us. That was it. And, you know, Jim Bankoff, all credit to him, I was running the website. I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to do this.

And he was saying, okay. And then it started their video, their podcast business. I was the first one. And so, and then they, you know, as a requirement came to me, he's like, I'd like to do a podcast. I'm like, here's how you do it. Like, it was so like artisanal and hand to mouth. And so, and the same thing with the events is Walt and I went to a lot of events way back when. And they all sucked because they were all sort of beholden to sponsors and there was no news happening and it was a little too much to insidery although ours is insidery but it was still it wasn't journalistic at all and so we said let's try this and that kind of stuff and that's sort of done very well for us and so I think now I'm you know obviously that we're trying we're working with people we're doing a lot we're doing extensions like a live event we'll see how it goes it's going pretty well pretty so far we're thinking of subscriptions for that because there's things we could add to it. And one of the things that's important to me is think about what's valuable to people.

What more do they want and what more would they pay for? Obviously, we could have done this a long time ago. We could have done a paid version of all of these things. But I just, our advertising was doing really well. So why not? Like the podcast advertising at some point, when someone was like, oh, no one can make money in podcasts. I'm like, yeah, don't do it. I was like, we were making so much money.

Right. I was like, what do you talk? Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Don't do it. Of course you can. And so, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking, like, what's the next thing that interests me? And most things I do is what interests me. When I become bored or I hate to say this unhappy, and I don't mean, or not happy, that's a better word. When I'm like, I don't like to deal with this, I just leave. I just am like, goodbye, going to do something else. A lot of it centers on doing stuff I want to do. I always make the joke that I'm a bad employee. And so I try not to put myself in a position where someone tells me who I am. Different people work well with other people. I work well with people, but not bosses very well. And it's not their fault. Sometimes it is, but it's often, I just don't want to hear it.

I just don't, you know, at this point in my life, and even when I was young, I didn't want to hear it. I wanted to take risks. And if I screw it up, it was on me. And if it wasn't, if it was success, it was on me. That was how I felt like it. And by the way, we've had amazing people along the way, too, that have been like this. Like Peter Kafka, you know, he's done amazing things. Mike Isaac is now at the times. You know, we have tons and tons and tons of people, Lauren Good.

I mean, we've so many amazing people who have gone from RICO to other things. And obviously, Walt was astonishing. But I just sort of take opportunities when I see them, like Scott Galloway. People don't realize he was, I saw him at DLD, which was a, event in Germany. And I thought, that guy's funny. And also, guy's insightful. He said some things I hadn't thought of, which is not often. Usually I'm like, that kind of thing. And so I went up to him, I'm really funny and insightful. And I don't know, we had to some of rapport right away. I brought him onto Recode, Decode, which was my podcast at Box. And we had such chemistry immediately.

And also, the numbers were crazy. And I was, nobody knew who he was. He wasn't well known. at all, didn't have his stuff at all. And I went, huh, that's interesting. Let's try that again. And same numbers. They were close to Elon Musk numbers. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. And so immediately, when they wanted me to look at some other hosts for that, for another show, I was like him, him, I'll take him. And so, and it's worked out really well. It's worked out really well. And so that's why we're trying to extend it. But one of the things that, Scott, as you know, signed a deal with CNN ploo. I make fun of it on Pivot all the time. But I'm interested in TV video right now. I really am. Yeah. Because, you know, this whole Zucker thing and a lot of

what's going on at the other places, like they just announced a fourth hour of Morning Joe on MS. I have a contract on NBC. But let me just say this. Could they not think of a new thing or do they need to do four hours of the same thing. I literally, my wife wrote me that. Like, can they not think of a new thing? And I was like, you're right. Can they not be creative? So when I look at like cable news and broadcast, I'm like, why are they so not innovative? Like the same, like I was working out and the same four people came on the screen like that you see, you know, whether it's CNN or MSNBC or Fox News or whatever. And I'm like, it's because it's cheap. They're doing it because it's cheap. What could you do here that makes it better? Or maybe it's a lost cause,

But it intrigues me to think about video, like, what could work that's different than what working now. Like, it can't be for, you know, talking heads. Like, I hate it. I hate it. Like, I don't watch it. Right. And so I'm wondering.

So what do you think the answer is? I don't know. I'm thinking about it. I sit and think all the time. You know, obviously it's easy to define what's not working, you know, these talking heads that don't know. I think journalism. I think more journalism.

I hate to agree with John Malone, but journalism. Real people are dying for good. real news that is substantive. And that's what I'd say, journalism. Yeah, I also think that, like, they oftentimes watch TV and just don't really think that they're getting the whole truth or they're getting a slanted version of it from the English. Besides the, you know, the pummeling, the Donald Trump stuff wouldn't have worked if people didn't think that a little bit. Exactly. Yeah. It's like the fake news thing. It's, it's, you know, you believe fake news if you don't trust institutions. Well, there is a ability to make you,

if you repeat some lia over and over again, it does sink in. But there is an elitism and a, and I don't mean visiting people in the Midwest at a diner, because I think that's bullshit too. Right, that's ridiculous. I literally, I was, I actually went to Kentucky to talk about, they were going to do Silicon Holler and this and that.

And I got up, I said, nobody's coming here to help you with technology. We don't need you. They don't, not we, it wasn't me. I was like, the minute they're, and they were talking about coal coming back and this and that. And I'm like, the minute they can automate, this, you're gone. Like, you think these people sitting here, your bosses, give a fuck about you? They don't. It was really quite a speech. I remember them being, like, kind of mad, but sort of like,

huh, she might have a point. Someone squared with us. Right. I was like, I'm sorry. And then what we talked about, they were like, you know, this bunch of people, they were much more conservative than me by a lot. And obviously, I was from San Francisco. And they're like, you don't come here and listen to us and this, you know, that thing, you know, that anger kind of thing. And I said, hmm, I didn't notice you come to San Francisco and hear what my life is. like, why don't you want to know what my life is like? You don't understand me. Why do I have to understand you? Why am I pandering and coddling you? You should come to where I live. And I said, come anytime. I'll show you the naked people in the street, the this, why we're liberal like this,

why we like good produce, like whatever you want. I was, I'm happy to talk. And so that's one of the reasons, actually, I have two things I do. I have a lot of people I don't agree with on my podcast a lot, like more than most people, which sometimes the New York Times audience doesn't love. And I also don't, like, not push back. Like, you know what I mean? But not in a rude way. I end up having, we did Jonah Goldberg recently, who I couldn't agree with on most things. And it was good. It was a really good discussion, right? Because it was about policy and different things. And anyway, I think we, I think there's something, I don't know. I think people are dying. There's a silent majority in the center who just want, like,

good information, who do not want to scream about masks with each other, who want to take care of their family, who want to be safe, who like science, who, you know, who are just regular people who are tired of the screaming edges. And the screaming edge on the right has really lost its fucking mind. But also, they don't want to hear the screaming from either side. And they definitely like democracy. And so what can, would be done in that regard? I think it's just interesting. Yeah, I think there's an opportunity to do that. in podcasts in particular, because you can have these longer nuanced conversations and you don't need a headline that's going to trigger half the population on Twitter.

Yeah, it's easy to trigger people, you know. Yes, it is. You mentioned, you know, the people that you had worked with over time. And yes, you know, nothing new under the sun. Of course, a lot of these tools had been there. It's not like substack invented email. I'm curious why you wanted to build a team and whether like, you know, being an independent individual, you know, maybe you would have considered.

that, you know, if that was like these media companies in a box existed? Or is there something about having a team that's in particular enticing to you? You know, I don't like managing it all anymore. I never am going to. That's one of the things. I'm not a bad manager. I just don't want to. I don't like it. It takes up a lot of my mind space that I don't want to. And other people are better at it kind of thing. Editor, same thing. Like, other people are, I'm okay. I'm good, not bad. Editing copy, but I'm not interested. So I think what was interesting was there was all these voices of people that were unusual that I thought were talented. Like, I remember when we hired Mike Isaac, there was someone else we were going to hire instead of him.

You know, he knows this at the time. And he was sort of, he was in back basement of wired, I think, something like or whatever, you went wherever. Dot com. And I thought he just had such a spark and that he deserved more, more attentions put on him because he was so talented. You could just see it. One of the things Walt and I did, we really were able to find talent all over the place, right, in different places that would have may not have been considered by the New York Times or the Wall Street journals of the time. You know, they wouldn't have gone to them first. And, of course, they all ended up getting hired into those places, which is interesting.

Or Bloomberg or whatever. And so I liked creating sort of a motley crew of people who would try different things. I do odd, and like Inafraid's another good example. I think she, where was she before that, C-Net, right? She was at C-Net. You found people in unusual places, or not unusual places, but that they deserve to shine. And I'm of the feeling there's an expression, everything that Cairns, shines, does. So why not put people in a position to shine?

And I like that. I liked making decisions on our own. Obviously, I was the boss, so was Walt, so it's not like it was a collective. But at the same time, these people got to really show who they were in really interesting ways, I thought. Yeah, it's cool. I'm not going to name names, but I know someone who interviewed with you for a job. And I think eventually got, no, I know eventually got it. I think your pitch to them was like, I want a nobody for this role.

Essentially, like, I will help you. Yes, Jason Delray's another example. Someone, though, I forget where I met him, but I'm like, I like him. He's, you know, I didn't mind difficult people so much. You know, I just, it was, it was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun and it was different and people who did it were entrepreneurial. And that's what I liked about them. Like they, it was a risk to come to these things, despite Walt being, you know, Walt had much more of a profile than I did.

But it was, it was kind of cool. And obviously we were attached to the journal, but they were somewhat hostile to us throughout our entire time there. So I want to ask you about this. So you sell recode to Vox Media. We've talked about Jim Bankoff, the CEO of Vox Media. He's wonderful. I like the guy too. How do you successfully go to them and be like, listen, I've built this like successful media property for you. I've built these podcasts for you. I now want to write a column for the New York Times and do a podcast for the New York Times and still remain attached to you. Like how did you pull that up? It's funny. People ask me on top. How do you pull it off at the Times too? Because they, you know, they wanted me to be an employee. I think it's pretty well-known, Jim Bennett, who is now doing the Palin Trail. I remember meeting one of the South by South. I think I was talking to Michael Barbera, who was a friend of mine. And I was talking to him about how they have to make another hit and this and that. I was just theorizing with him.

And there was a guy there, and he was like, oh, you've got a lot of opinions. I'm like, yeah, I do. And I think I said something like, New York Times, think small and then think smaller. That kind of thing. I made some off-hand beer, beer. goggle remark and although I wasn't really drunk and at all in fact I didn't I don't drink and and it was Sam Dolnick who's the head who's one of the owner families very talented guy the family member and I'm happy I love working with family of newspaper family I love Don Graham

for example to Washington Post and worked with him quite a bit and thought he was wonderful anyway so we ended up talking and they definitely want me to be employee and I'm like I don't want to work for you. Like, I don't want to be an employee. And they were like, everyone wants to be an employer than New York Times. And I was like, well, apparently not everybody. Like, I don't know. I think I sort of set it going with a lot in people's minds. And so, and they were like, well, you have to be employer. You can't do this. And I was like, okay. Bye. See you. Like, I don't know what to say. I'm not, I don't want to, I, I just don't. And I want to do this. And if you want to do this, this is great. If it works fine. If it doesn't, fine, too. Like, you know,

and by the way, that's how I feel all the time with, with anyone I work with. Not working out. It's okay. Move along kind of thing. And so I was, I went to Jim and Jim is wonderful in terms of, he saw it as an opportunity, not a negative. He didn't love that Recode was making a lot of money. But then I'm doing, I pivot. I started pivot. And so that was doing really well. So I was like, I'm giving you this nice apple. I'm taking the orange. Like, you got the apple. Stop complaining. I'm not leaving completely. And he was super flexible in that regard. And so I think one of the things people don't do is they don't ask, so they don't get. And so I always ask. And if it works for me, great. If it doesn't, I don't mind. I can do something else.

And so I think that's how I look at most of these things. Like, it's not that big of risk if I, I can, I can write for anybody. You know what I mean? Like, I can get a job. Like, I don't feel like I can't get a job. And so, or I'll think of something, right? I'm very entrepreneurial, so I'll think of something. And so I just proposed it to him. And then just did it. Like, I just don't think you can not behave like that in life. Like, I don't understand why people, well, I can't do it because they'll be mad at me. Well, if you don't care if they're mad at you, then that sort of makes it easy. Or I'm not, it's not work.

I don't want to do this anymore. Now I want to do this. Like, if you don't say that, you're sort of stuck. And then also, like I said, when you don't want to do it anymore, you do something else. Like, I don't know. People are so agonized about their careers and ways that exhaust me. I just don't understand. I remember talking to someone recently.

A lot of people come to me for advice. And I was like, do you like your, how do you, they were offered a job at a big place and were very on the fence about it. It was very clear they were not sure what to do. And I said, how do you feel the day after you take the job with these people? Because they had been very trying to meddle. They were like, you got to tell us now. You got to do, you know, that kind of thing that employers do.

And they said, how do you feel the day after you took the job? How do you feel? and they said terrible. I said, don't take the job. Like, I don't know. I just put yourself in that situation. Or if you don't agree with someone, something, especially employers who try to make you feel bad and pay you little, like they want to pay you less. I think this substack thing is great because it's like, fuck you, I can make more money for whoever. You go, no, I say no a lot. I say no a lot. Like someone was trying to get me, you can't do, like, we don't want you to do that. We want you to do this. and they just wrote a single email back.

I said, no. They were like, what? And I go, sometimes that's all things. You know, of course they were like, nobody says no. Like, and I was like no. And they said, I'd like an explanation. I go, no. Just no.

That's it. And then what do people do? Like, it's funny. Maybe it's because I can do it, but I think anyone can do it. I think anyone can do it. Yeah. I think there's way too much fear oftentimes. And by the way, you're not going to pay that much in journalism to be like that.

It's not like the money is so fantastic. So really? Like this is, especially with young people. I think about young people a lot. You know, if I do this, then just in any job, you know, then my son, when he was wanted to take a year off, he's like, what do I do this? What about my life? I'm like, really?

Like, I'm the best parent in that regard. I'm like, don't worry about it. It'll be fine. You'll be fine. You can, like, cook. You can do whatever. And same thing with my other son who gets all these A's in school. You know, he's all agonized right now about college and, like, is working on a Saturday.

I'm like, why aren't working on a Saturday? And he's like, well, because of this, this is, I go, it's not going to matter. Let me give you the big secret of adulthood. None of this matters. True. And so I try to think about that throughout my career. I don't know. Is pivot bigger or a sway bigger?

I think pivot, probably. Pivoting. Yeah. Wow. Cool. Very cool. It's big. It's growing like crazy.

That's always a fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fun listen. I remember listening to those early recode, decode episodes with you and Scott. And, you know, hearing you mentioned about. how well they've done. And of course, like, it's turned into a great franchise. Yeah, because it's really doing well. We have lots of ideas. Some of them insane. But, you know,

that's what I like about working with Scott and the team we have, which is really great is, like, nothing's too insane. Like the other, we did an 800 number, like 1-855 to listen to our questions. And, you know, I'll tell you, no other media organization should have done this, but we did a little thing on Twitter where we're like, keep it clean. Do not put dirty things on our thing. Like, we just like, but people. people liked it because it was within our brand, right? It was within our brand of doing that. And so you can tell we're having fun, you know, you can tell it, you can tell it. We're having a great time. And when we don't, and it, inevitably, as all things will do, it'll crash, like, or whatever, not crash,

maybe dies slowly. I don't anticipate that for a while, but I enjoy myself doing it and therefore I'll keep doing it. That's how I look at it. I look forward to it every day, every time we do it. If you can believe it. Great. I can believe it. Yeah, Pivot MIA is February 14th to 16th. Kara Swisher is here. We'll come back after another quick break to talk a little bit about optimism for tech.

Yeah, imagine that. We'll talk about that. So we'll do that right after the break. And we're back here with Kara Swisher for one final segment. Again, Pivot MIA is February 14th to 16th in Miami. I'm sure you can hear a lot about it next week. You can even go. You can check it out at boxmediaevents.com.

Pivot, MIA. I'm curious, you know, there's an article by Cade Mets in the Times about how all these big pie in the sky ideas for tech I haven't really panned out recently. You talk about quantum computing, self-driving cars. Is there anything in the tech world that you're optimistic about

that we should be paying attention to? I think self-driving cars will pan out. Just hasn't penned yet. That drives me crazy. Like, it's like, you know, look, you can have your opinions about Elon Musk all you want all day long, everybody has them. But the fact of matters are like,

he said 2021 and now it's 2020 I don't care he's building it like I don't think it's fake yeah he's kind of built everything he said he was going to do so I'm going to give him benefit of the doubt and I kind of like his whack ideas like okay sure you know with space

if he says space elevator I'd be like huh interesting so I think I kind of like that like but then reporters get all like well he said this but this I'm like okay well ding him on Wall Street I don't know what to say but I do think autonomous cars are coming, and coming big, changes in transportation are obvious. Changes in workplace are

obvious. The pandemic has become the biggest experiment in human history on how to work at home, which was coming because I've worked at home since for 25 years, right? So the other day I was at a school and they're like, what do you think of the new workplace? And someone's like, I think everyone's, I'm like, I've been, everyone's like, oh, I wear sweatpants now. I'm like, I have not worn not worn sweatpants for 25 years. Like, I didn't put on pants, pants, when I need to, when at an event. And I think the workplace is changing in a really cool way and interesting ways. The idea of commuting seems right now kind of crazy. How to help, you know, I have a lot of kids, as you know, and so, you know, childcare and how you deal with that. Anyone who's a parent is

like, it's terrible. No matter what level of income you're at, it's difficult. And when you're at the bottom levels, it's terrible. Now, a lot of people have to go to physical places to work, especially service workers and hospital workers, lots of places you have to be physically present. But how we do work and the way we do work is going to be radically rethought. I think that's really great. I think it's positive. Healthcare, same thing, telehealth. I think there's a lot of big movements in that direction that are really interesting.

And I'm excited to see what kind of investments people make. The health care system for everyone is broken. And again, the people at the bottom suffer the worst. but anyone in any, you know, try to make a doctor's appointment, try to avail yourself to your information, everything else. So that to me seems like a big area ripe for change and the pandemic has moved that forward. I think how, the physical and analog and digital merging is really all those areas interest me, except for in schools, as it's turned out, the great experiment of remote learning sucks, just sucks. And we do we're going to make it better, right? And

change that around or we're going to say you know what some things are better analog but how can we use technology to help that kind of thing you know again my kids suffered for in the in the pandemic that said i wanted to keep them safe um i can be one of those screaming parents who are like you know mask thing is so interesting they're fine they're fine i'm sorry yeah you know i'm just the focus on it is nothing to do with the mask is everything to do with something else that's going on but I don't know what's the something else control over yourself feeling like life is out of control I have to you know I have to assert I have to be able to say whatever I want do whatever I want and don't tell me I'm racist well you said something racist or you know what I mean like you know

it's something else it's about self it's about powerlessness I think in a lot of ways in a way and experts being a little too like tis tis tisky I guess but that's not really it is it It's people feeling that they don't have control of their lives. I think that would be my guess. Weird stuff happens when you go through this trauma. Yeah, this is a trauma. It'll be all of a sudden. It could be good.

Not good. They're good things can come out of a terrible tragedy. Absolutely. Right. So what is it? Often do. You know, this vaccine technology, some of it looks really promising. You know, there's all kinds of stuff.

I think climate change tech. I've spent a lot of time focused on. I read a really amazing story in New Yorker about. out the permafrost and what's happening. Right. You know, it wasn't as hopeless. It's what's happening. It's changed.

This is, we don't, we may, you know, decry it, but boy, do we have to figure out how to live with it. And I was most. At this point, technology. Right. That's what they were doing. So all these buildings are crushing down because the, the land goes up and down and mostly down, right, as it starts to unfreeze.

And it goes miles down. It was all these facts. I didn't know. And they're putting these. heating things within the, they, they use technology to be able to build there by putting things on blocks so the heat from the building didn't melt the perma fry. It was really back when, when they had less technology. And now they're putting things to regulate that to keep the cold. Anyway, it was really interesting. And I thought, this is all technology. You know,

a lot of, something we're going to talk about in Miami, of course, with the mayor, Miami-Dade, the woman who's running Miami-Dade, which is a whole large area, is, you know, what you do about rising sea levels? Like, you're going to build a seawall? You know, just let Miami go and move inland? Or what are the technological solutions to that or warning systems? You know, I just interviewed Neil Stevenson, who wrote Snow Crash, obviously, which was where Metaverse came in, the first idea of Metaverse came in. He was talking, and before that it had, but he was the one that really popularized it. And one of the things, his new book is about a sort of a billionaire that you'd sulfur into the atmosphere to stop global warming, but everyone lives with global warming, right?

And how do they cope? There's a lot of feral pigs in Texas, all these repercussions of global warming and how you cope and how you change it. And it's just a really interesting time in that regard. I think climate change tech. And then probably employment, how people work, like how people actually work, like whether they're journalists or like what is work now, not just commuting and offices, what is, how do we conceive of work? Do we have, are we wasting enormous amounts of our time being less productive because of various things? Is there a better way of work?

I think that's interesting. And from a technological point of view, what am I most interested in? I think climate change tech. I'm really, I'm suddenly very interested in it. So not suddenly. I wrote about it two years ago making, I made something up. I said the world's first trillionaire was going to be a climate change tech. I just made that up.

I was like, ooh, interesting. I'm like, I just made that out. I was like hoping it makes sense right it could happen right yeah there's such a big need for it and it's like like with COVID we weren't going to get out of it with natural solutions we needed technology to get us out of there and it did and it's going to be the same with climate we'll see the reprogression that too and so you know and then you know the body I think I've been doing a lot of interviews around the body like I have from Jeanette Winterson who talked about taking your brain out and putting it a different sentient being to you know I'm really interested in that I'm interested

in, like, health care and how you change the body and the food stuff is interesting. I mean, I'm not going full, like, whatever Jeff Bezos is doing to himself. I don't know. Would you transfer? Oh, my God. What is he doing to himself? Let's not discuss. Let's allegedly.

No. Well, some facial surgery, clearly. Yeah. Whatever. You know, there was a VC. I'm not going to say who it is. Two people. Two men.

And it always looks bad on a man. It just does. I'm sorry. I don't know. What's wrong with facial? I'm like plastic surgeons, get it with it. Because some women. Jeff Bezos had a fine face.

It was a good face. You know what? Good for him if he wants to do. He thinks he looks better. That's terrific for him. Congratulations. But there was a guy who had facial. It was a face left.

It was a lot of extensive facial nose. His nose was different, everything. And we were at a party and everybody was talking, Silicon Valley. It was at a half big, one of these big investor houses thing. And everyone was talking about his face left, right? And so I went up to, like everybody was, but nobody would say anything to him. And they were acting like he didn't have a facelift. And so I went up to him and I literally put a circle around my face.

I'm like, what the fuck happened? Like, what were you doing? And he goes, excuse me? What? What are you talking? I knew him pretty well. And he goes, what? And I go, with your facelift, what?

Why? Why did you do this? What is going on here? He's like, I didn't have a facelip. I'm like, you're a big fucking liar. You completely. I said, everyone at this party is talking about it. So you might as well tell me, then he filled me out on his whole facelift.

It was great. It was like so funny. There'll probably be another way to do that. That's not quite technologically speaking. Exactly. Yeah, I hope so. Would you put your brain? I would not have a facelift.

I was going to ask about the brain transfusion. Oh, that stuff's cool. Put your brain in someone else's body. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I don't know. Sure, why not? I'd rather do that than go to space if I had a pick, you know?

Yeah, it sounds like a better option. It does. If I was dying. I think some of this cry. Well, this was in this permafrost thing, because all this stuff is coming up. Like, they pulled up a whole woolly mammoth that was still bleeding. Like, so they were trying to figure out cloning, et cetera, but I thought, but it's a lot, like, there was one thing, this was incredible. And then we'll finish is they pulled out a piece of the sod or whatever, the permafrost.

It's called something else, I don't remember. And they were put it in some box, some sterile box, and they were able to grow an invertebray that, like, from 24,000 years ago, from what was ever the heck was mess, like it was like a chicken gone bad in a refrigerator. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like it was the organisms were doing this. But it wasn't like, it was one thing to create like a cell or, you know, whatever. This had like organs and all kinds. It was a real thing. Like it was a real creature that was from 24,000 years ago. It's something part of it had been frozen, whatever. It was crazy. And I thought, and they said this is going to have implications for cryogenics finally. You know And I mean, like, this is really interesting.

Of course, you have to be under the perma. It's like, that's the plot for Captain America. I get it. But it is the plot for Captain. That's right. He went down into the permafrost. But it was really interesting. I thought, wow, this is really.

Like, that's really, it's really interesting. I'd rather do that than space for sure, for me. Yeah. But I like space. Same here. I like space. That space is okay. We have to have a moon base.

We have to have a moon base 100%. Yeah. Awesome, Kara. Thank you so much for the time. Really great chatting with you, as always. Thank you, Alex. Pivot, Miami. Got to mention it one last time.

February 14th to 16th, Kara is going to be there. So will Scott Galloway and lots of great guests. Lots of tequila. Thanks so much. Lots of tequila. And tequila. I guess, I don't know. What are they doing?

Grum? Whatever. Scott, Scott, with liquor. They drink a lot there. Scott with a special cocktail will be there. Okay. Sounds like an amazing event. The first of its kind, probably not the last.

So go check it out. It's at Voxmediavents.com. slash pivot MIA. Thanks again to Kara. Thank you, Nick Guatney for doing the edits and turning this around quickly. Thank you to Red Circle for hosting and selling the ads. And thanks to all of you, the listeners. We will be back next Wednesday with the show about CRISPR and other technology that there's a lot of optimism around. Trevor Martin, who's the CEO of Mammoth Bioccience, is going to be here with us. So for all the talk about how journalists are too pessimistic about tech, a heck of a lot of optimism to end this one. And so we hope that.

that keeps you going and that you're here for the next one. Thanks again, and we'll see you on Wednesday.