Big Technology Podcast - Google's Head Of Search On Its Big AI Bet — With Liz Reid

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Elizabeth Reid is Google's VP of Search and a 20-plus year veteran of the company. Reid joins Big Technology to discuss Google's major AI push and how this new era of computing is transforming its product and business. Tune in to hear about AI-organized search results, the growth of Google Lens, and how AI is changing the way people interact with search. We also cover the potential impact on publishers, Google's approach to responsible AI deployment, and the future of AR technology. Hit play for an insider's look at how the world's largest search engine is evolving in the age of AI. --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [e-mail]

Google's head of search joins us to talk about the company's major AI push and how this new era of computing is transforming its product and business. That's coming up right after this. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. We have a great show for you today because Liz Reed, the VP of Search at Google is here to share a number of announcements that Google is making in terms of the way that it's bringing AI even deeper into search. we're going to talk about all that and plenty more. Liz, great to see you. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Okay, so we're going to talk about all your announcements,

including big announcements on Google Lens and the way that we're personalizing or you're personalizing. Google search more with artificial intelligence along with some potential ad news coming to Google's AI overviews. That's all coming. But first, let's get this out of the way. Why did Google tell us to eat rocks? If you want the detail of that one, the Onion Publish a story, and that story was mirrored on a geology site that is generally a pretty high-trusted source for that, for high-quality information about geology. And, you know, we went and tried to answer the question and found this, right? And clearly a mistake and clearly more work to do. While we have protections on things like satire, which we detected on something like The Onion, we didn't actually

realize it was on this article. I think one of the things that we generally focus on, is ensuring that we really do have high quality and helpful information. And that's something we put a lot of work into and a lot of testing. But we're not perfect. And there are certain classes of queries that we were not seen as much. In general, people do not generally come to Google and ask how many rock shall you per day. It's not the type of question of work in general on testing surge and look at the types of queries people come. And so this became a new avenue of these types of questions that are sort of false premise, right? They're not really logical questions that people are asking. But we really worked. We took the feedback and worked out quickly to try and

address and have improved the quality even further. And I think that's going to be the nature of technology. Search has been through this times before. You know, we in general help people quite substantially with queries, but it doesn't mean we're perfect and we'll continue to grow and improve based on the feedback. Right. And you know, it's kind of like a jokey thing and kind of funny. I don't think anybody was harmed from that. If you ate the rocks, we apologize, but probably, you know, you have other problems than that. But, you know, it gets said to a more serious question, which is that the reason why that this came up on Google is because Google is ingesting more of the web and presenting it in the search response place, whereas before it would send people out to

websites to sort of, you know, find their own answers. But I have a question for you, and this is sort of like the core question about this entire push into, you know, answering with AI. is why is it good for Google to sort of take in some of the web and present it in the answer space to search queries? And then why is it good for the web to have that happen? Yeah. So I think at the heart, people are always have tons of questions in their head, right? We talk about how human curiosity is really boundless. What does limit that, though, is technology. And it's limited also by people's lives. They have limited time. They have limited energy to spend figuring out how they ask questions. And so one of the challenges when technology limits is that people don't ask all the

questions they're curious about. They're curious about the question. They think about it for like a split second and decide it's too much work to get the answer. And then they move on with their day. And when you can with technology lower the barrier, then you actually allow people to come ask the questions. And so what we find with AI overviews is it unlocks new queries for for a variety of reasons, and this is why we see usage. The first could be you have a question that sort of isn't directly answered by any web page. The information is scattered across the web. And so the amount of effort of taking you to get started would be much higher.

Oftentimes people don't know how to phrase the question. You know, some of us who have been using it for a while, we'll talk about keyword ease, right? This idea that you take your question and you have to translate it in a way a computer needs answer it. And so with AIO reviews, you're kind of shifting the paradigm, right? The technology is using it to transform the answer in a way that the information can come to you. But I don't view AIO reviews as sort of an end. I view it as a jumping off point, okay? Get you started with your question and allow you to dig deeper into the web. And I think one of the things we see with AIO reviews is that they show a broader set of sources, a wider range of sources across. And you can think about

that as if you asked your question, only some number of web pages, if any, could be zero, will directly answer your question. They might talk about this aspect. Another website might talk about this aspect, right? If you're comparing two things, maybe nobody compared those two things on the web. The best information is in different sources. And so with ARI reviews, you can kind of get started, but then you can dive in to sources that might talk about each aspect in greater detail. And so I think it's a chance for sort of the richest, the deepest information on the web to surface more easily, to allow more of the niche. I also think it fundamentally just grows the pie. People ask more questions. This gives more of an opportunity for everyone.

So Liz, if AI overviews, the AI answers that Google is presenting on top of the web when you start to ask questions to it, if that really takes off, are we going to need the web anymore? You know, I've heard you say that it grows the pie, but is there a chance that the web just goes away? I don't think so. I think what we see again and again with our UX research is that people are really interested to hear from other people. They want to hear their perspectives, their take on things. You want to get that experience about what is it actually like. Let's say you're going to Yosemite.

I have young kids. I want to find stroller-friendly trails. I don't just want to know what are the stroll-friendly trails. I also want to hear the tips from other parents that have gotten through it. And so I view it as like this is a misconception that people sort of either want a text answer or links. People actually often want to get started and then they want to dig deeper. They want to hear from others and learn.

And I think this has been true throughout the whole internet across. I mean, anyone who clicked on a Wikipedia page. Oh, in theory, they came to the Wikipedia page for the answer, right? But then they clicked on more, right? Because what happens is, as you get information, your curiosity gets sparked, and you have new questions, and you dig deeper. And I think that desire to hear from other people will continue indefinitely. And it's part of the beauty of the web. But people hearing this might say, okay, it's only an inevitability that they're asking questions.

And then they want to hear from other people. And, all right, Google's already taking step one of giving the basic information from the web pages. They're in AI overviews. Eventually, it's just going to be a dialogue. with Google, and then they're going to get to hear from people through Google and never end up on a website. Yeah. I mean, I think people can have all different views about where they're going.

I am personally someone who is not as excited to hear somebody else tell me what somebody else said, right? Like, it's a little different to go and hear what you say, Alex, then for somebody else to say, well, Alex said X, Y, Z, right? When you really want to hear what Alex said, then you want to hear from Alex directly, right? And so I think that that connection to actually people's experience in their words, in the way that they express it, will continue. And this is sort of getting to a deeper issue here. When chat CPT initially came out, people said, okay, this is going to replace search.

But it actually seems like you're going to have a very different experience with a chatbot, talking with a chat bot, an AI chatbot, and then searching for stuff on the web. I'm curious if you think that that's the case as well and how you would describe those two different experiences. I think there is this question about do you actually want to both connect to the web from the purpose of hearing other people's perspectives? But it's also oftentimes people come to the web to accomplish tasks, right? You're going to go find shoes. You don't want to just know what are some of the shoes.

You actually want to get to the shoe site and buy the shoes, right? And so I think of search as, you know, at its heart, it was always about helping you reach all the world's information connecting you to all of that. And I think it will continue. I think if you take something different like Gemini, it is much more focused on being that collaborator, helping you sort of think through some things. Maybe you're going to brainstorm how you write that letter to that, you know, you're trying to work with someone to help you with gardening, right? How do you write a note to that person? They're going to have some overlap. Loss of tools over time. time have overlap across. But I think they're going to focus on different things. And search is going to continue to focus heavily on information journeys and connecting you to great sources. So does search then evolve eventually to become some sort of agent? You know, everyone's talking about agentic AI. Is that really the thing that we should be thinking about when it comes to search? I think everyone has a different definition of agents about what they mean. But I think what we'll, yeah, I'll just give one. I mean, you talked about how it's like people, for instance, might be using search to do something.

So, for instance, let's say I'm trying to book a table at a restaurant. I would come to Google and be like, all right, you know, searching that restaurant and then generally there's going to be a link to open table or whatever it is or the websites or the restaurant's webpage and then I would book it. So like isn't it a natural step to say, all right, Google book me table at a restaurant? And Google has been trying to do this with assistant for a while. And now it seems like the technology is catching up. I think we'll continue to see the tech trying to make some of those actions easier.

easier. I think one of the things that assistant has done over the time was it helped, for instance, with some of the phone calls, right? Okay, if you wanted to book a restaurant and you're busy and they're busy and it doesn't work, how does it continue to make it easier? But I think the world is still pretty early on and we don't understand all the possibilities, right? Do some of these sites themselves have agents that they provide to make it easy to book? And so how does Google interact with other agents? How does it create more agent to capabilities itself? I think both of those will evolve. But what I do think is true is you sort of go back to this question about how do you help users, right? What are the ways in which users' life are difficult? What are the ways in which

some of the merchant's life are difficult? And how can we use technology to actually make that easier for everyone? And I think that's when we approach in search. We're constantly asking that question. What is difficult about what people do? What are the barriers they have to information? And can we actually democratize understanding of information? Can we democratize access? and ability to do things. I think that's what's really exciting with AI. One of the barriers that we have sometimes when we search is that we're sort of going to the web,

to this sort of web that doesn't change depending on who we are. And the results often don't change depending on who we are. So we're going to get to a point where Google could use AI to customize the results based on the person we are. Like call it an agent or call it not. Let's say you like Thai food. And you go to Detroit and you search a restaurant near me. Like is there going to come to a point where Google's going to be like, okay, this is a person who's told me they like Thai food.

Let's give them the Thai restaurants in Detroit. I think we will find that the technology does increase personalization over time. I think it's going to be more nuanced than your description. So as someone who worked on local for a while, people want Thai restaurants. But if they often go to Thai restaurants, they don't want just Thai restaurants. if they're like, I just want to tie restaurants. I would have just searched for Thai restaurants, Detroit, in the first place, right? And sometimes you're going out with friends, and maybe those friends love Thai restaurants,

and maybe they don't, right? But I think actually helping you understand if you go to Detroit, what are the types of places, these are some of your favorite cuisines, you want to try something different about what is the favorite cuisines in Detroit. Can we help you make sense of all those different restaurants and help you find options? I do think that's an evolution technology to start on it. get more advanced at understanding things. And you'll be able to share more. Instead of you just searching for Thai restaurants or restaurants, do you say, I'm going with, you know, five friends,

I'm going in the middle of the peak hour, you know, at 630 or something. And I want, I don't want a wait time. And I would really like delicious food, but I have a child who doesn't have dairy. Okay. Then what do you, you know, what do you give it to me? And so that ability to not just have that the tech personalized, but you to actually be much clear about all of your needs, I think will grow. And that's what we started to see with data of AI is that people are asking longer queries. They ask longer queries because they can now share more of what they actually want in the query and believe that the tech will give them a good answer. So I'm saying like maybe you end up in dialogue with these search engines. But for you, it's more just like you're going to

just like write a lot more before you get an answer. Or could it be both? I don't think it's one or the other. I think people will vary. I think dialogue is often true. Sort of if you take the extreme of you only dialogue, but you know 12 things, then that's slow, right? If I have five things I want, I just want to tell you all at once. Other times, you don't actually know what you want. Lots of times people are looking to be inspired. And so they might just say, hey, I'm going to Detroit, where should I eat? And then you might come back with some options and then continue to do follow-up. So I think anyone who tells you all of the tech will be, everyone will write really long things or they'll only write short things. I don't think people are like that. They don't always

know what they want. Sometimes they know a lot. Different people approach differently. And I think what will be important is that the tech adapts much more, right? Even you've seen one of the things people have done with some of the gender debate is ask for simpler answers, right? You go and you ask this question and then they give you this answer that assumes that you know everything and you don't actually know enough and you can be like whoa whoa can you make it easier or I want to go explain this to my five-year-old can you help me do that and so that ability for the tech to transform to where you are instead of you coming to where the information is I think is exciting right and this is sort of building up to some of the new features that you're announcing within search so I'm

just going to read it right from your blog post you say we're rolling out search results a search page organized with AI in the US beginning with recipes and meal inspiration on mobile using a customized Gemini model you'll now see a full page experience with relevant results organized just for you you can easily explore content and perspectives from across the web including articles videos forums and more all in one place and you say in our testing people have found AI organized search results pages are more helpful and they're helping them discover new content. So it is interesting to see that this is the direction that it's going. And obviously, you talked a little bit about, you talked a little bit about wanting to see things more clearly

and there's going to be toggles right, where like you can get the long paragraph or a bunch of paragraphs from AI or the bullet points or something a little bit briefer. So talk a little bit about what went into shipping this change on search. Yeah, I think this is one of the cases where we believe that people still want to deeply connect to the web, right? You know, I have debates with people about whether or not one day all of their recipes are going to be generated by AI or not. But I am personally someone who prefers to get that recipe that, you know, a great chef created that has lots of reviews to understand what that is, as opposed to something made up on the fly. But if you take something like recipes, it can be daunting. There's so many

recipes out there. How do you make sense of it? How do you even understand different groupings? If I love videos, is it easy to access them? And so we think AI has an opportunity. to do much more than something like AI overviews, to actually rethink the entire search results page and sort of group it in ways that are very logical for you in ways that allow you to browse and get inspired across and connect with different recipes all over the web. And that's really exciting to see.

And we're starting with recipes, but we'll continue to go more broadly and really think about the question about, if I don't know much, if I'm just browsing a topic, how does AI use it to make sense of it for you? I'm surprised to hear you say that recipes are going to be something that people are going to want to go to the web for because to me it just feels like it's going to be the exact opposite, that they're just going to go

to AI. And they're going to be smart about these queries and say, listen, like, give me a recipe for this dish in the spirit of this chef. And then it just spits it out. And you don't have to scroll through like all that text that you do now on Google when you're finding a web page through Google. You really think we're going to want to be on the web? It's like the worst experience on the web as recipes? I think there are definitely recipe web pages that are better or worse than others, although I think there are great videos on that. I think you often want a tried recipe, right?

I mean, I think we'll see how far AI goes, but now when they want to do this, they make up recipes that AI mix of recipes that have roughly the right ingredients in some somewhat random proportion, right? I think that's different than that experience of hearing a great tried-and-true recipe. I do think some of the web pages of recipes could be nicer to consume, for sure. But a tried-and-true recipe, I think, goes a long way, and people spend lots of time crafting recipes of their flavor. So we'll see where it goes.

We'll see where it goes over time. But I think certainly at this point in time, people really still appreciate actually trusted recipes instead of made-up recipes on the fly. Liz, let me ask you this. You're the head of search at Google. A lot of people look at these recipe pages and they say they're just responding to Google and that's why you have to scroll through like, you know, 3,000 characters of text before you get to the recipe. Why is that happening and can you fix that? We, our guidelines do not actually encourage you to put 3,000 lines of characters, but people continue to do that for a variety of reasons. We are trying to continue to experiment with what are ways, with recipes. to make them easier to consume because we do hear user frustration on browsing some of the recipes.

So we'll continue to focus on how do we make higher quality and we'll experiment and work with the ecosystem. We think about how can we make the recipe experience better, broader, not just on the search results page, but in your whole journey. So another thing that we're seeing is that Google is getting more interested in visual search. This is, again, from your blog post,

You're going to have video understanding in Google Lens, so Google Lens is a product where you can point it at different scenes in the real world and it will give you information. So I can understand in real time with video. You can ask questions with voice. You can shop the things that, the items that you see with Lens. Talk a little bit about these updates with Lens. And honestly, like I'm not a lens person, but it seems like it's a big product within Google. So what is the adoption looking like right now? Yeah. At this point, we have nearly 20 billion queries a month across. And it's one of our fastest growing segments. So people really do enjoy it. I think people have a range of different questions they go. So they'll do it from homework or education. They'll see a plant and want to ask. But they'll also go see a cool shirt online and want to figure out where they can go get it. Right. And so they use it for a range of questions. All those questions we saw before with Lenz.

you'd see people attempt to issue these queries, and it's really hard. Can I have a shirt that's kind of striped, but really thin, like, it was just very difficult to describe. There's a reason people say a picture is worth a thousand words. And so as we unlocked that, we saw people ask more and more questions. And so the addition of things like video and voice that we're announcing today is really just the continuation of our efforts to make search more natural and intuitive. That's what you might do with a friend.

you might point to something and ask about it is what you might do to a shopkeeper can i find a dress like that but in green okay um the a common example with video that we find people like a lot is appliances the appliance goes it breaks and something is blinking and you don't really know how to describe it and you're like what is wrong with this thing um and now you can take a video pointed at it and ask you know what's wrong how do i fix this um and it will understand what's actually going on with the different blinking lights and give you tips other times we've done examples where people pointed and asked about a game they know how to play in my household rules get dropped get deleted somehow they get I don't know where they go I don't know if they get thrown out I don't but somehow the instructions constantly disappear and then you want to go back and play that game you haven't played for a while how do you actually play it right you can very quickly then point at the game and say how do I play this and I'll give you instructions. So continue to ask this question about how do we make search really natural? How do make it as easy as it would be to ask a friend who happened to know everything? And we just

continue along that. Multimodality has really been exciting to watch what people do with it. Yeah, this seems like it's like growing format across all tech companies. I don't know if you watched Apple's recent iPhone event, but they introduced this thing called visual intelligence where it seems a lot like lens and I called it Lens Redux. I mean, what was your reaction when you saw that? I think it is not surprising that when you find these use cases that are really helpful for people, which lens has been that others will look into helping people with it. I think we're going to continue to make lens cutting edge and really build great technology and we're going to focus on helping your users. Wait, and talk again about the adoption of lens. So people, lots of people

are using it. Yeah, nearly 20 billion searches every month for lens at this point. And how does that compared to like text searches? We don't share overall numbers on text searches, but it's a pretty remarkable growth given it's basically been about six years, Lens has gone. And so from no one doing it to everyone doing that, and obviously there are some searches that are difficult to express with visual, so it has been quite exciting to see. Our younger users particularly like it. So when Netflix came out, Netflix was all about mailing you DVDs, and they said there was

something in the name that was prescient, right, that you would eventually watch your flicks on the net. And lo and behold, it's a streaming service today. And the name lends, very interesting, because a lens is something you might have in a pair of glasses. It's not really something that people think about with a phone. Is this just this product where you point your phone and you ask Google things about the things you see in the real world? And you're seeing a lot of growth with it. Is this just a middle stage before you end up putting this technology in glasses? I think as glasses come out, the technology feels very logical to put out in classes. I think we're a long way away from everyone having glasses in practice. And so I think

probably even as lens come, even as glasses come out, people will continue to do with their phone. But I do think it's a very logical thing to bring to glasses as well, to ask questions that you see in the real world. And so I think we'll continue to help people as classes come in such a way. We just had Andrew Bosworth, the chief technology officer of META on the show last week. And we talked about Orion, which is, I think, the first legitimate augmented reality piece of technology I've ever seen. I had a chance to try it out. I've talked about it on the show before.

I talked about it with Boz. I mean, it is crazy. It layers computing right on the real world without needing to wear like the Vision Pro. or the Oculus. What did you think when you saw that come out, saw that piece of technology come out? Because that is, it seems like that's the end form factor

that like something like a lens would be useful for. I think we continue to see form factors that both layer on top of each other. So I don't think there's a one size fits all in the same way that mobile didn't completely replace desktop either. And so I would expect that people have a set. But I do think that question of glasses, asks, or some other form factor that's just on your face, you have questions all of the time. And if you don't have to pull out your phone and you can just ask right away, just faster, right?

So were you impressed when you saw, when you saw Orion? I haven't got to play with, I haven't got to play with Orion myself in person to know what it's like on the one. So I just have seen the news articles. Isn't it? So the history of Google, though, right? If you think about it, a website on Internet Explorer, a toolbar on Internet Explorer, a browser, mobile operating system. Google has always gotten ahead of the latest way to deliver, yeah, to deliver search to you in the actual place you are, so to speak. Isn't it incumbent on Google to build a pair of glasses like that?

Is that in development? I'm not in a good position to speak of that. we can have you follow up with actually to know more on Google's plans more broadly. But I do think search is well positioned with the technology we've been building on for multimodality and making information accessible that as that technology evolves will continue to be really helpful for people. Okay, so let's just talk about speaking of adoption. Let's talk about the performance of AI overviews, which we've talked about a bit here. I don't know if I've had it long enough, but I haven't fully noticed it.

But I asked my folks on X, are they noticing AI overviews in search? And 84% of people have noticed them. So can you talk a little bit about the adoption and the response from users now that AI overviews are out in public? What we've seen is sort of three things that I would highlight. First, that people who encounter AI overviews, they search more. Because basically those questions that they would previously think about and decide not to ask, they bring to Google search. So it's not just that they search more in the moment. They'll

actually come back to search more often directly. The second is that they find those results more helpful. They like the balance of both the overview and the ability to jump off and dig more on the web. And that balance they really appreciate. And the third is that they get to encounter a wider range of sources across the web that they can experience. And I would say overall, I've been quite please watching it. It's the type of thing where you're like, it's a brand new technology, how will people encounter it? And the level of satisfaction, both in the results, but in the choice to come to Google search more, that's a high bar to get people to decide to take out their phone an extra time. Right. And so when you see that sense that people actually issue more queries,

you know that you're really building something that people value. And that brings up new questions in terms of monetization and ad product and also what it means for news publishers. So I want to talk about that and more when we come back right after this. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about The Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than two million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes on business and tech news. Now they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily show, where their team of writers break down the biggest business.

headlines in 15 minutes or less and explain why you should care about them. So search for the Hustled Daily Show and your favorite podcast app like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on Big Technology podcast with Liz Reed, who runs search for Google. Liz, so you also have some news on the ad front that you're starting to include some more advertising within AI overviews. Can you talk to us a little bit about what's going on on that front? Yeah. So a lot of questions that people come to us, are sometimes pretty broad in their intent. We don't know exactly where they're going.

And AIO reviews will often help you go into different aspects of the question that you have. And some of those aspects have more opportunities for you to connect with relevant businesses. And so we're starting to show ads in this. A good example might be you're trying to figure out how to clean a sofa. Some people just want the, you know, club soda trick and they want ideas like that. And other people are like, no, I try to. hell of those. I'm up for buying a cleaning product. And so the idea of review might say, okay, tips for cleaning are, you know, this thing, this thing, this thing. And you can buy a fabric cleaner

and then we'll show relevant ads on there. And what we see is that we're able to do it in a way in which people find the ads helpful because they're really zeroing in on the part of the problem that's interesting for people at that moment. And for those who want the other ideas, then they can still get that answer to. And so it's a nice way to balance all of different ways someone might consider a different topic okay i don't want to go without asking you about notebook lm which is like the hottest tech product in the world right now it's not your team but it's not my team for folks i've just tried it out you can dump lots of notes in there ask questions about it and then the craziest thing is that you it has like these this basically will

create a podcast based off of what you're the information you've dumped into notes and it's crazy So talk a little bit about what, you know, you obviously had access to this earlier. What's it been like internally? What kind of use cases are people finding for it? And is it just like kind of a something that's a magic trick that feels cool on the surface or like people actually spending time listening to those podcasts? I think people are playing around a bunch with different podcasts. And I would say a few things on that.

Number one, much of the web is designed with an assumption that everyone is a visual learner. It's not actually true. Some people actually learn, you know, listening much more effectively. Shout out to our listeners. Yeah, shout out. People have time on their commutes, right? That is, is it time to go learn about something to explore and how does that change what's possible? But I also think as not just about audio versus visual, there's something about how podcasts are sort of often more discussion or dialogue-based that actually is easier.

sometimes for people to learn about it right um i um occasionally um through a through a family member will try and read these medical journals they're extremely dense it's extremely difficult to try and understand them um and i don't necessarily have like three hours to go look up every other jargon word um but actually if i can go and and create a podcast out of them and understand then i can help my family member more effectively right um and so i think that's a it's another cool way with podcast to think about how can you unlock information. You know, if you think about Google's mission, it was not just organize the world's information. It was make it accessible and useful, right? And there's a lot of times where information today is like technically accessible

in that I can access it, but not in that it feels accessible to me, not in that it feels useful to me. And so I think podcast is a cool example of changing to a world where information goes from being available to useful to me. And that will be exciting to see how we innovate in that space. So are AI podcast going to put me out of business? I don't think so. I think they should make, you know, I think they should make you able to write a better podcast if we do our job right.

Okay. Well, we'll find out. Liz Reed, great to speak with you. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. It's a pleasure. All right, everybody, thank you for listening. And we'll be back on Friday with our breakdown of the week's news.

Until then, we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast. Thank you.