Big Technology Podcast - Kara Swisher Rates Tech Leaders — With Kara Swisher

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Kara Swisher is the author of Burn Book and host of the Pivot and On With Kara Swisher. Swisher joins Big Technology to discuss the latest tech news and share her opinion of the nature of tech leaders. We discuss Marc Andreessen, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai, Tim Cook, Andy Jassy, Satya Nadella, Sam Altman, and Mark Cuban. Then we examine the nature of a great leader's personality, how much luck vs. skill plays a role in success, the impact of having lots of money. And plenty more, including how journalism and media move forward today. Enjoy! --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology Premium? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [e-mail]

Kara Swisher is here to talk with us about the state of tech leadership, AI, journalism, the media business, and her best-selling Burn Book. All that and more is coming up right after this. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. We are joined once again by Kara Swisher. She's the host of On with Kara Swisher and the Pivot Podcast and the author of the best-selling new book, Burn Book, which I just finished and loved. Kara, welcome back to the show. Thank you. You have such a good podcast voice.

I wish I had this good one. Hello. You can do like smooth jazz at midnight. That's what we aim for. As long as people don't fall asleep, that's a good thing. That's okay sometimes. Anyway, you know, I have had some people who are like, yeah, I like to put on your podcast and go to bed.

And I'm like, look, as long as the analytics are complete, then we'll take it. That's actually better because they listen to the whole thing. So congratulations, bestselling book. Thank you. You signed a two book deal. This one, obviously, a memoir talking about your interactions. with the tech community and you're reporting over the years? Any thoughts on what the second one's going to be about?

There are some thoughts. It's about the future tech, really. I spoke broadly about, you know, where it's a little more positive. It's a little more where things are going. You know, it's as if I know a lot now. And so I want to sort of look at the positive parts of it. And it's not going to necessarily be positive because as usual it's me. But I think it's going to be a very fair-minded look at where things are going,

whether it's psychedelics or the, you know, some of the drugs. drug discovery or cancer or a range of things. I'm doing it with my brother who's a doctor. I think it's really important because a lot of it will focus on health care. And, you know, just some of the stuff. I think I'll probably have a little bit of what's been in Burnbook at the end in it. AI is obviously part of it. So something like that, I think.

But I might change my mind. I might just write a, I'm fascinated with these, like, you know, I just interviewed Charles Duhigg, who did super communicators and you have the atomic habits. I'm thinking of trying to write one of those and see if I can have a bestseller at that just because I think it's a formula. I have them all. And so I'm like, maybe I could pull this off.

I don't know what I'd call it. So what is the formula for those? They're just, there's like not much. I'll tell you that. There's like a few studies that you string together. You know, I just interviewed Jonathan Haight, for example. You have a premise, then you string a few studies together and then you get in arguments with people.

That seems to be the way to do it. Okay, so this wasn't in my notes. but since you're fresh off a conversation with Jonathan Haidt, very interesting guy. He brought it. Basically, this whole book is talking about how social media has led to a rise in depression among teens. But there's been a very big pushback to him. From social scientists, yeah, not from parents, not from parents.

It's interesting. Yeah, it's a lot of noisy social scientists arguing with each other. And he's wrong and they're wrong. And I think it's right in the middle. He included some real shitty studies. There's no way around it. And I said, he goes, I go, I characterize them as, And I go, and he goes, how would you characterize him?

I go, shitty. And he goes, oh, and I'm like, they are, John. And he goes, yes, some of them are. Like, you know, I think he's left himself open in that regard. At the same time, directionally, he's correct. And I just think, you know, we could either be in the situation where it's like the video games. Remember, video games were going to make us all killers? And that wasn't the case.

That was, you know, or dirty song lyrics. Thank you, Tipper Gore. Didn't really make us all, like, dirty necessarily. And so I think some people are worried that he relies on cause. There's no causality versus co-relation. And so I think my pushback to him was, you know, there was also COVID and there was also Trump and there was also climate change and there was also, you know, lists of things. So which one of them is hurting kids more, right?

And I do believe, I've always been a long time believer that social media, the deleterious effects will be, will know them in 20 years. But I think he needs, if he wants to make. this broad statement he needs a little more proof. I don't think he's incorrect in the end, him and I can't pronounce, she was the one he raised some of his work on. And then we had a big argument about the stuff around trans, making people trans by reading about trans people. It's just, there's just nonsense. There's no proof. It's just the right-wing trope, and I thought he fell into it. And he said, he used the word, in part, you know, in part, like people read about it, so then

they know about it. And I was like, there's literally been no change in the amount of people who do transitioning. And I said that in part is doing a lot of work here, like, stuff like that. So it was good, though, but a lot of what he says is absolutely true. Kids need to play more. The screens have a deleterious effect on especially girls. I think there's no, I think directionally he's correct. I just think he's got to bring more, especially on a controversial topic, especially when tech companies are going to push back at him. Definitely. And I've been fascinated by the debate there, so I can't wait to listen to that episode. I had a question from one of the people I thought was some of the debaters, some of the skeptics are just, they're just not, they're not,

it's not good faith argument, but some of them are, and I used one of them who I thought was having a great debate with him about it, um, to ask him a question as my expert question. So I, I like the debate about it and I think in the end probably there'll be, it'll be, it won't be as unclear once we realize the impact on our kids. But it's almost like us, you know, what was the effect of the Gutenberg Bible? What was the effect? of telephones? What was the effect of cars? Like, it's a significant effect. The question is some of the, I've heard from, like, gay teens, the best thing it ever happened to them back in my day because they got to be able to meet other gay teens, right? That's a good thing. So I think it just has to

be a little more, you know, instead of just being a moral panic, which I don't think he's doing, people are accusing of that. Instead of being a moral panic that we haven't paid attention to, and so we feel extra guilty, and so now we have to react to it. It's obviously a significant, just the way the introduction of cars were as or the introduction of the telephone. And the tech companies spend a lot of time not age-gating, not giving us the real data. So, you know, I'm in the middle. Right. So let's talk a little bit about the people building these products.

It would be fun to just go through a couple of the characters that you have in the book. I'd love to start with Mark Andreessen. Andresen Horwood's just raised $7.2 billion in a new fund. Now, Mark is so. smart he's like obviously extremely intelligent and he's so successful but also so bitter and so interested in shutting out any part of the debate like at least at least like some people in this like is social media hurting us debate are coming out and having the discussion and while some people just don't want to have the discussion he's on the board of facebook i guess i mean i've never met someone

who's so smart who's so stupid i don't know how else to say with him he's such a small-minded person and i hate to say that about people but you know he's so he's frequently wrong but he's never in doubt And it's a really bad way to be when you're, you know, and of course, he uses his wealth and successes as his shield, which I don't think it is. He's had plenty of disasters himself, so he should be, he should know better. And so just to go from one to the next, let's talk about Elon for a minute. What's your read on the state of Elon? I mean, Tesla today, we're talking on Monday, this episode's coming out Wednesday at 10%. They're cutting 10% in their workforce.

That stock has been cut in half and then some. Yeah. What's your read on the state of where Elon is? And do you have any sense that Tesla is? struggling in part because he's distracted by Twitter. Yes, I think, yes, yes to all. Like, I think, look, Tesla was inevitably going to get its comeuppance because there's going to be, he's, let's see what he did that's an accomplishment.

He really did push forward this industry. There's no one you could give more credit to than him and pushing forward the electric vehicle thing. Google tried a little bit, but he really did it, right? And so a lot of people tried, and he did it. And so that was great. And he came out with a car that was innovative and interesting. it's as if Steve Jobs invented the iMac and then stopped that's what it feels like it's like

he hasn't look it he hasn't done he's done he did the y and the x the y but you know then cyber truck come on like come on you're not going to get a cyber truck no it looks terrible like fine if someone wants to buy it but it's not a groundbreaking car everyone's going to be in right so he sort of lost the narrative on what was a very innovative company and a very forward leaning company and inevitably there was going to be, it's as if he didn't think there was going to be competition once he created it. But he felt like just because he created, he owned the space.

But he doesn't. You know, the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers. That's how I look at it in the U.S. Not everyone gets to California, some kind of thing. And so I think he's no question a pioneer, no question of a great entrepreneur, business person, more than a technologist, I suspect,

is how it's going to end up in history. And, you know, kind of a hand-wavy PT Barnum, too, which is part of the package of doing that. You need to be like that. Who then curdled into something very strange, right? And he became less entertaining than sort of toxic. And so obviously he was going to have competition, too. He hasn't kept an eye on the ball on innovation

and that there just hasn't been a great. The product line is sad and tired, right? And it's the design isn't like all these cars are coming out. The Rivian's so good looking. And, you know, someone who's really prominent said, I don't know why every test has to look like the inside of an egg. And I agree. I don't want to buy it.

It's the most unromantic. Oh, it leaves me cold. The car leaves me cold. But once you see cool ones, you're like, oh, look at that Porsche. Look at that BMW. Like, why wouldn't you? And if they're cheaper, I have a Chevy Bolt, so I shouldn't talk about sexy, but I love it. It's fun, you know.

And so I just think he dropped the ball on innovation of the company. I think he alienated most of his natural buyers. by being such an asshole. And I think that he's indulging his personal need to say, speaking of which saying anything about everything and offending people. So, you know, if you have a choice and this guy's an asshole, you don't buy, and it does not new and it's not a compelling product. It's a recipe for what's happening right now.

But it is interesting because like if trying to wrap like a bow around what Elon is, is sort of very difficult right now because, you know, of course, struggles with Twitter. Tesla is not doing very well. though we'll see what happens. It's a stock price thing. But then NeurLink is pretty impressive. Sort of.

Well, no, let me just tell you. There are 10 companies like Neurilik. He's not the only one. So that's the thing. He acts like he invented the moon. Like, he just didn't. There were other companies who aren't as hand wavy as him. So I don't know if it's impressive.

I'd like to actually get it away from his showing off a guy who can do this is one thing. I would like to see the science. I'd like him to open it up. I'd like people to see it. I'd like reporters to report on the 10 other companies that are doing. this, which they don't because it doesn't have Elon Musk attached, but several companies have put electrodes. He's embedded them. They're on the outside, whatever. There's all kinds of fascinating, interesting things. But I think that's hand-waving versus actual, you know, we're a long way

from doing what he wants to do. But I welcome it. I welcome it. This would be great. I just, how's he going to monetize it? How's he going to make it money at it? He's certainly been innovative in Starlink and SpaceX. The solar thing, solar's now falling off, so that's going to be a problem. His solar city is going to suffer, even if it's a good company. The digging thing, okay, how's that going to make money, right? Like, you know, I think the space stuff, I think, is the most interesting stuff where he's got a really great CEO and Gwen Shotwell, who should get more credit than she does, who's managing things. So Gwen is doing a great job. So also on the space thing, I mean, let's just talk about Starlink for a second.

There's been this big debate about whether Elon should be the one controlling Starlink. I mean, he did put it up there in space. Shouldn't the government if it was like... His company did. His company did. Not him personally. But don't you think the government, if it's like seeing this as a national security thing? Yes.

Should build its own version of Starlink. And so it's not like... Probably they should have. But he was more innovative and faster. So that was a great idea. So he and his company were. Yes, they should. I think he should be just like any other vendor, Lockheed or anybody else, but he doesn't see himself

that way. So it's a private company. So in this case, it's the government's fault. He can do what he damn well pleases as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I'm with you on that. And he does. Yeah, I think that like the criticism of like, oh, how could Elon have all this control? It's like, well, if this is a public good. Oh, no, I'm worried. Why is some, why is some guy who I'm not sure what he's doing at 3 a.m. in charge of this? And I'm not an expert on anything. That's my issue. I guess I would just say that like the focus tends to be on him, but really the government has a large role to play here. I guess we agree there. Yeah, I think the government should be running it. I just don't understand why our government allowed this to happen, just like a lot of, I believe in public-private

partnerships, but at some point, these are in the public interest. The public part should be driving the car, but he is. Definitely. It's amazing in the Walter Isaacson book where that you basically see the Obama administration seed everything space to SpaceX. Totally. And not just SpaceX. It's Whatever. You know, I have thoughts on the Obama administration, yeah. Zuckerberg. So you have some very colorful language about Zuckerberg in the book. You say, fuck your Metaverse.

And he did. And he's done it. Yes, and he's done. But he did. He started defunding it. So I was right. Wait, he has pulled back funding on. Yeah, he has pulled back from the guy.

Have you seen him waving his hands about it? He's now in Mr. AI now. Now he is. Remember he was Mr. Cryptocurrency? That didn't work. Then he was Mr. Metaverse. now he's Mr. A.I. Good one. He finally got to the right place. But in some ways, you have to take all these bets. Not that one.

Well, but another hand, it's also like you have to keep reinventing the company. Clearly, he was seeing that use of the blue app was faded. I think he didn't have enough people saying no on that one. If he had the right people, they would have said, AI is where we need to focus, Mark, a long time ago. When you think about the decisions that he's made on content, for instance, do you think Musk has made him look better in retrospect? Yes. That's a game. gift to him that keeps on giving. He looks like a lovely guy. You know, it's sort of, yeah, he is.

He doesn't, he's not a villain. Like, Musk is like playing a Bond villain. It's like he's moving into Bond villain territory. But, um, and Mark was sort of adjacent, Bon villain adjacent kind of thing. No, I think Mark's a good business person. He's a little like Bill Gates and you saw the transformation of Bill Gates over the years. He has a sort of Darth Vader character to a much more interesting character in that regard. Um, you know, he's just a businessman. I think we, we tend to have an idolatry of these people and honestly I don't know why we do and so you know he's a flawed human being he's made good decisions and bad decisions he's good at making money he's very uh he's he was good at his product his one product which he did a great job on and now

he's trying really hard to stay relevant like the rest of us right and so um so good for him to do it he'll make mistakes along the way um it's sort of like you know it reminds me of haircuts like oh that haircut didn't work out so well now this one's good you know that kind of thing. And, you know, he's, he's right to move into the AI direction. I think he's been incredibly sloppy and mismanaging of the social network. As you know, I wrote about it in terms of his responsibility and the true costs of what he's doing. I think he's not bearing the true costs. We are. I've said that over and over again, and they're doing it again, cutting off stuff in California because they want to charge for it, you know, or Google is one of them.

They're all doing it. They're also getting out of news, and I've seen you speak critically of that. I think getting out of news is a good thing, like the meshing of news and Facebook. I don't think, I'm not critical. I think they shouldn't be in news if they're going to do it badly. That's my, like, they can get the fuck out of it. That said, they have now hollowed out the news business, the business of it, you know, digital advertising they control, and they don't contribute anything back.

And I think that's grotesque, but they should be able to do it, right? they've ruined the business and now they're not going to do it and before they ruined the business and they were doing it badly so i guess i want them to do the first then the second um but they you know they they they shouldn't be and they weren't good at it and so they're i think they should i there's a way to do it well but i guess i can't have them do that they can't possibly you know avail themselves to do a good job at it and there are ways to do it is just costly is what it is maybe best for everybody if they're if they're out well except they've decimated the actual business right so that's not good it's also but this is a thing though right isn't it also incumbent upon

the news business to have yes other models that are not Facebook reliant yes that's correct that's that's what I've done I don't trust I remember when Cheryl Sandberg called me and she's like come on Facebook live I'm like why she goes will you'll be bigger I said I'm plenty big like what do you what do I get and they go well we'll give you some money I'm like why should I it's like you're buying friends I don't understand why you'd give me money to be on it like that makes no sense If it's a good business, it's a good business. You know, I'm like, I'm like, why should I, I know, I didn't say this to her, but I thought, why should I fucking paint your fence?

I'm not interested in that. Well, I was at BuzzFeed News during that time and we exploded a watermelon. Yes, you love painting other people's fences. You love painting. And at the end of the day, that might have been the pinnacle. That watermelon blowing up might have been the top. That was a great moment. I mean, with the, with the rubber bands.

Yeah, that was cool. That was cool. It was, but fleeting. Fleeting, but cool. But cool. Cool. Sundar, right person to leave Google? It's interesting because it's like they're hitting all-time highs.

They seem to be getting the ship together with cloud, but still seem to. Well, you know, I think the thing on him, they think he's indecisive, right? I think that's what the most of the complaints you hear from internally, from that. I mean, he's certainly better than Larry and Sergei, that's for sure. I mean, those two, like, okay, that would be a disaster. Why a disaster? Because they're just, they've lost the narrative. of the two of them. You can, you know, all their whack stuff. They're doing all that. When they got to

floating, floating showrooms out in San Francisco Bay, I was like, and seen. That was their watermelon moment. That's what rich people do when they get bored. I think he's a very competent executive. Probably you could have someone a little more aggressive, I guess. They have so many assets, like you could imagine. They should be like at the, he and I had an argument years ago when they weren't in cloud. And I said, why are you letting Amazon take your natural business? And he's like, well, we're using all our capacity, right, for our products. And I said, well, get more. Like, you shouldn't let them have. That's your business kind of thing. And, you know, he's just a cautious person. They should be dominating in so many areas. I think they're probably hindered by

regulatory issues in terms of buying things. They have to be very careful about what they buy. I like Sundar Pichai. I think he's a really thoughtful person. But I see why people think he's cautious. Yeah, I was in the room when you were interviewing him and he said that line about AI being akin to fire and electricity and everyone's like that was a weird thing to say but turns out that he was right on that no he is he's a very thoughtful and thoughtful and I met him when he was a product

manager when he did the browser so the Chrome browser and I always thought he was very careful. You know people in tech don't like careful people so he's probably boring to them and Tim Cook has managed to get over that

because the stock is so hot you know it goes up and down but it's about 10x from when Steve Jobs ran it, right? So, you know, he's managed to escape, but he still has. I was somewhere, and they're like, Tim Cook is just not inspiring. I'm like, it's worth 10 times more than Steve Jobs.

10 times. Like, I don't know. I feel like that's a very good performance. You know, they're just not inspired by the AirPods, I guess. Right, but it does, it is a good question about Tim Cook as well. It's the next on the list, actually. Because it's like. It's 10x.

That's all I have to say. If you're a shareholder, you think it's great. You're happy. Like, all right, what do you expect them to do give you a magical unicorn every year they're nuts not happening it's not and it didn't happen under jobs either by the way no i think the main question is so tim cook has kept the culture that they had under jobs that's helped them build this iPhone refine the iphone he's improved it just the way sacha does too yeah but there's you know you look at apple's ability to build the next big thing

and you wonder no car right they failed there and the i i apparently we're going to have a big announcement about AI from Apple? Well, they don't collect information the others do. They don't have those assets. So that was their business plan, to not do that. So that makes sense. Okay. They have to partner with someone. They don't collect information the way the others do. They're not information thieves the way the others are. Do you think that they'll be able to figure out the products, though, undercook when it comes to AI? Um, yeah. I think you'll, you'll see, it'll be something so subtle. I know, I know you're expecting some like beautiful, gorgeous thing, but yeah, I think your phone will talk to your AirPods better

and then it'll all coordinate. If they do that, that'll be, look at everyone's software and services have grown like enormously under Tim Cook. Like, it's not that exciting, but it sure does make money, right? That kind of stuff. He's not as exciting. I just think it's, he's just not as exciting. And at the same time, business processes are just as important as products.

And, you know, I think to expect some wow event is something of the past. That's not going to happen. And a lot of it will be incremental. And the incremental, since there's such big businesses, is enormous. So third in a row in terms of leader who's taken over from a founder and sort of isn't that exciting, Jassy. And to Jassy at Amazon. As his, we can do SOTIA next, has Jassie's vision for Amazon come through to you?

Are you sort of, do you think you have a good picture of what Amazon's going to do under him? The health care moves, I think are really interesting. We'll see where they go, right? I think it's smart. It's smart for you to trust Amazon as your provider of. You know, he took a little while to get out of that stupid store thing. But I'm sure it was compelling to them in some fashion that why they were doing that. I think he probably doesn't know what to do with Whole Foods.

Like, what are we doing this for? Yeah, apparently that's a disaster. Well, it's supposed to probably a delivery. It should have just been a delivery warehouse of food, right? I guess to make, because they're good at delivery. You know, I've always thought of the company is a logistics company, so I'm not like waiting for some mind-blowing situation. But of all the companies I use,

I use that most actively and regularly, and it works really well. And again, it's not as exciting, but I don't see anyone challenging it. I don't see anyone challenging Amazon in the food and product delivery space of any heft whatsoever. It's not Uber.

That was going to be Uber, if you remember, it's going to be this and that. But I don't see anyone challenging them. And so you're not on the Shian and Timu Train? I will see, you know, if you want to buy, cheap shit and get it delivered too quickly, I suppose. Yeah. No, that's logistic. I mean,

they're very good at logistical. Amazon doesn't make as much stuff as Sheehan does. That's a slightly different business. But, you know, that's a different business. If you want to buy a certain product that's, you know, here in front of me, I got these from Amazon. These are these ginger chews. You know, I'm not getting them from Sheehan. I'm not going to eat their ginger chews either. No way. You know, so I don't know. I feel like it's, I haven't seen anyone supplant Amazon as yet in that area. But, but, you know, you'll get more of your stuff from them. You know, they did get into fast fashion at Amazon and they just didn't do a great job of it and Sheena does a better job. So in that area, sure,

they'll do better. We'll see how they do on the other products too. They're already seeing growth problems in that company. Right. And then in terms of the pattern, I actually think Satya and Della stands out a bit and that he is more exciting than the previous three, talking about how he wants to make Google dance, really changing the culture of Microsoft, changing the focus. Do you think he tied himself too closely to open air? And he's not. He's not because now it seems like they're trying to hedge? No, I don't. No, I think that was a smart move.

I think he's got to do it himself. I think picking up great information and great computing resources, that company sure should be right in the middle of this. No, I thought that was smart. He affiliated himself. He's going to do stuff on their own. He's placing bets in several different good places. That makes sense to me.

You know, I don't know. I think if they're not invented here is a stupid way to behave, and I think he knows that in this. case. Towards the end of the book, you talk about Sam Altman also. And Sam kind of strikes me as an earnest leader and the real deal. What's your perspective on Sam? I think he's super aggressive. I've met him when he was 19, so I have a long history with him. You know, he's like the rest of him. He's super aggressive. He's much more thoughtful. He has much calmer voice and everything else. He at least, you know, leans in the direction of there could be problems here. You know, none of them

ever said that. So that makes him a unicorn, like when he actually admits possible mistakes. I don't think he wants to be an oracle of everything. I appreciate that. I think he, I like the people he affiliates himself with. I think he's sort of a counterweight to Elon in that regard. At the same time, he's an aggressive entrepreneur, so he's going to do everything at his interests. Again, I don't, one of the real mistakes people make is to make these people, any of them, into saviors or that they're going to change everything. They're just business people to me. They're not unlike the people who provided us with Coke or Twinkies or anything else, and I didn't praise them, so I'm not going to praise them.

You know, they're good at what they do. I think he'll do whatever's in his interests. I don't care. I don't mind that. He doesn't pretend he's not. You know, he can go on and on about changing the world if he wants. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But he mostly is pretty honest about his aims, which is to build the biggest company.

And, boy, he's got a lot of challenges from a legal point of view, and he's everyone on his ass. You know, he's got to raise a lot of money, the chips thing, the expense. And he's got to make money. I mean, you have subscriptions, but I suspect it's not a very big business. You brought up a couple times, but this notion of these people aren't saviors kind of goes to like the first sentence of your book. So it was capitalism after all.

Yeah. Because they talk a lot about saving the world. And of course, like it is a lot of this stuff has been motivated by capitalism. But then again, like, you know, sort of like seems like none of this could have happened without it, whether they were trying to save the world or not. No, I don't mind it. What I mind it is they're ridiculously high-minded bullshit nonsense that they had to voice on us.

Like, you didn't have the guy who made Tutsi rolls do that, right? I am here to bring the world through sweetness to a better place. That was actually world-saving technology, though. It was. I love a Tutsi-roll, and it makes me happier than most products. But nonetheless, it was like, you know, it's just nonsense. And so they really, and they actually believe it. For some reason, they were, either they weren't hugged enough as children, or they

just don't, I don't know what's wrong with them from a psychological point of you, but they have to be beloved and savior-like in order to excel. They're just making stuff and they're selling it, and I wish they just say that, and have a little more care not to tell me they're not creating a nasty version of capitalism and then make a nasty version of capitalism. Because capitalism has great parts, but it also is real unpleasant implications. Unfettered, it's terrible. And last one on the list is Mark Cuban, who's interesting, because he is like a basically like straight up business person and you praise him in the book and I'll do it here too he seems yeah at least when I've spoken with him someone who's just the person that he is he's not trying

to put on airs he was kind of a bro in the beginning you didn't probably didn't meet him back then but he was real bro he was heavy bro and kind of an asshole and we'd argue a lot and you know when he I didn't think broadcast dot com was anything but it like I was like this is a business I think you're just taking advantage of the moment and I can't believe they paid that much for he was all mad because he thought it was a real business later he'd be like oh you were right that's kind of a nothing burger but um i think he's pursuing interesting things i think he's um very straightforward he calls it as he sees it you know he's sort of a counterweight he feels like an adult those i mean again it's a very it's thin gruel out there and so you take any you know

any port in the storm in that regard but he's a nice i like him personally yeah same here so as i was reading through the book i was like trying to think about like what is is like if there's a through line between what makes a successful leader, what is it? And it's so interesting because we've talked about so many different types of personalities at the helms of these companies. And some leaders, like, they have real ego. And some are so arrogant. And then some are just the, they feel pretty humble.

And they're nice. Sam's a nice guy. Mark's a nice guy. Exactly. So I'm curious what you think about, like whether that plays into at all, whether someone successful as a business leader. I don't think there's anything. I think the only thing that I'd say is sort of an ability to be persistent.

They're persistence. They stick with, I'm persistent too. So I think persistence is an unsung trait among people. Some people think contrarinism is a good thing. I think it always ends up becoming curdled. You know what I mean? I'm just being against it, to be against it because I want to destroy, to destroy. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think persistence is the one that I would say they're persistent and that's a good thing and they don't get failure doesn't bother them as much they are able to accept failure and move along and I think that's always a good quality although I prefer the ones who when they they don't say it's not a failure I'm like it was a failure like they admit it and they're like okay we're going to try this yeah that's what an adult does so I don't know if you saw there was this kind of thought experiment about if you put somebody in a room with Gary Kasparov and gave them like unlimited tries to beat him at chess, how long would it take for them to do it? And a lot of the chess masters were like they would never beat Gary.

Never. And some people are like, well, you know, it would take this amount of time and they'd eventually be able to do that. And so when I'm thinking more about like what takes a successful leader, do you think successful tech leaders have that Gary Kasparov sort of ability to build this stuff or that it's time? whole different. Yeah, I think sometimes it's luck. Oftentimes, there's a whole lot more luck going on than anything else. It's someone who has a good idea and is able to shift quickly. I think that is a quality that's great. But the idea that these are more special, you know, unicorns than you and I,

it's just not true. It's just not true. Some of them are. Some of them are really quite gifted in what they do. What they tend to do then is shift off into other areas they're not so good at, you know, or pontificating. V.C. is talking about Ukraine. No thank you. They're idiotic, beyond belief, most of them. But, you know, yeah, I think there is a quality of entrepreneur. It's an entrepreneurial quality that not everybody has. And that is true. Like, I'm more entrepreneurial than the average reporter, and that's why I think I've done well. So why am I like that? Lots of reasons. I have a disputatious personality. I want to work for myself. And that's just the way I am, like the way

I'm built. And it helps to be that way in my aims. But if it was, if I had to be at an office, I'd have problems. I'd be at the bottom of the totem pole for sure. Yeah, same here. So thinking about like the people that occupy these levels of power, do you think that we're living in something close to a meritocracy or is it really a shuffling of like the top echelons of society? I think they end up helping each other and then they think it's because I think the first one, yes, I'll give it to them. The second one, not as much, right? I think they think that they're, I say, I always say, I think in the book I say this, it's a, they think it's a meritocracy, it's a miratocracy.

And they somehow think they did it all. And, you know, just like Elon taking credit for everything. Like, you can't do anything without taking credit. It's so Trumpian. Like, only I can do this, which is like, give me a fucking break. But I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you think someone like born in an average family with no connections to the tech industry could make it?

Yeah, for sure. Yes, just like everything else. They could start a yogurt store too. Right. Right. So sure. Yeah, why not. I do think, again, persistence really does set them apart. They just keep going. And that is not a small thing. And that doesn't require intelligence. You know, you do have to have a level of intelligence. That's for sure. But like a lot, you know, a lot of these people aren't as highly, Steve Jobs wasn't technical. He knew about technology, but he wasn't technical. He was inspirational. And he could see, you know, he's the one that said podcast. to me the first time. He said something, you know, the privacy on stage. Yeah. Like he just was a big thinker. He was a big thinker. And I think he was a special thinker, you know, and then of course he becomes the character he is, right? So then you have that, you know, checking in. So that's a whole other thing is they become, you know, some of them are smart enough to resist becoming savior, God, Oracle like figures, and some people aren't. But, you know, you look at someone like jobs and he had so many wins. It's sort of like a sports team. It's like, okay, they're better. Like, so many good, so many wins. You're like, come on. At this point, they can retire on their

wins. But I think about that a lot of good at anyone else. When I was doing all things D, there was about, in year 15, I'm like, I should just retire now. I've done enough. I've done enough, right? A kind of thing. And so, you know, these people keep going. And that's a really great quality of them. Right. And you haven't, I mean, you haven't retired and you even write in the book about like your decision to even, like you wrote right after you wrote about your stroke that you're like, I just want to work. Yeah, I like working. I enjoy it. I'm good at it. I'm good at what I do. And why wouldn't I want to keep? And I have all these interesting ideas and I want to bring them. I'm a, I am really an entrepreneur in a lot of ways. And so I'm kind of interested in see, like right now

I'm super interested in video. I don't know why. I just am like, huh, why is everyone calling this the end of this when I don't think it's the end, right? Right. And so I just want to see, maybe it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. And so I just really like to try different things. And so that's why I'll keep working because it interests me. If I was interested in gardening, I'd do that.

But I'm not. Yeah. So we've talked about in terms of the nature of a leader, ego, success, power. And how about money? I mean, how do you think money changes people? And does it inevitably change everyone? that gets it. No. No, there's a lot of rich people who are perfectly, Mark Cuban be one of them. He's just, you know, he's got a lot of money, obviously. He just paid $270 million

and, it's $76 million in taxes. Not everybody, no, but a lot of people, yes, because what happens is they get surrounded by enablers that tell them they're so smart and then they think they're so smart. And so the weaker, the weaker characters tend to be, tend to become weaker still by that and so inevitably when you're that rich you get more and more into a bubble of wealth that is really hard to break out of i find it sometimes i'm leaving some of these people and they have their chiefs of staff and their planes and i'm like oh my god i got to leave and get on this bike and go out and they can't do that for lots of reasons or i don't think they can do that and so i do think it's it can be a real prison a very comfortable prison but a prison nonetheless

caris swisher is here she's the author of burn book which you can get in your bookstore of choice We'll be back right after this. Hey, everyone, let me tell you about The Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than 2 million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes on business and tech news. Now, they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily Show,

where their team of writers break down the biggest business headlines in 15 minutes or less and explain why you should care about them. So, search for The Hustle Daily Show and your favorite, podcast up like the one you're using right now. And we're back here with Keras Wisher on Big Technology podcast talking about Burnbook, The State of Technology. And let's talk about AI a little bit more. One of the most interesting things that I read from in the book about AI was this quote from Elon and then your response to it. So you say that Elon said we really need to think of intelligence as not being uniquely confined to humans and that potential for intelligence in

computers is far greater than in biology and you write musk was right yeah yeah he was yeah i agree it's a different kind of intelligence i think we anthropomorphize it you know right a little too much like they're going to kill us or they want to kill us or anything like that but sure it makes sense if someone can crunch numbers faster it's a different it's just a different kind of intelligence and it works very well with data right and so then do you think that we're sort of that the hype around the this current cycle of generative AI is appropriate? Yeah, I think it is because, look, there's so much data now, and this computing is getting better and better and more sophisticated.

It makes sense that it will, you know, years ago I heard a speech. I was sitting up in the top of a church, which was interesting. I just have a vision of being there. And the guy said, we're right now, he was an AI person, I think, from MIT. And he said, right now we're at dolphin-level intelligence of AI. And it's soon going to surpass humans. It's going to go from dolphin. Dolphins are pretty fucking smart to start with.

It's going not smart enough, obviously, to get out of nets, but nonetheless smart. But it's going to surpass, and I thought, well, that makes sense because it's going to have more and more information, especially if it's data heavy. It should do, the human brain can't, like a doctor can't read all the medical journals and all the latest new things. So it makes sense that it would be smarter in that regard, maybe not kinder, not more creative. and things like that. So, yeah, I think their hype should be there. It makes sense. Opening, obviously, as the leader right now,

do you think it's stable enough to continue? I don't know. You know, like, was Netscape, was the hot ticket item and then it wasn't, right? So is it Netscape? I talk about, with Sam like this, are you Netscape or are you something else? He's like, we're not Netscape.

I'm like, well, you could be. I'm such a fun person to hang around. But, you know, they could be Netscape. Where's its business plan? There's a lot of competitors. It's, you know, he's obviously a lightning run. and this whole firing thing didn't help them much. But, you know, it's obviously at the white hot center of everything,

but I don't think it will remain there. No, I don't, no. I mean, unless he's the best business person in history, but I don't think he is. They have a lot of competition. They do. That's what I mean. I'm always like, just like everyone was like,

can you believe what happened to Tesla? I'm like, yes. We talked about it two years ago, and I got all attacked by the Elon stance. I'm like, inevitable competition, inevitable. And this is a real pricey industry. There's no business plans, so much money running into it. Speaking of the Andreessen money, I'm sure it's all going after they're taking their crypto money that didn't do as well.

They are always up to some scheme, aren't they? I mean, that crypto thing is still unbelievable to me. And then to have the audacity to come out and write a book about how good it is going to be after it's already failed. Some of it is. Some of it is. Yeah. You write a lot about the media business and journalism in the book. So on our AI theme, do you think AI is going to not kill, but seriously? injure the media business.

AI will, I think it will affect it. I don't know if it'll kill it. I think killing is a little dramatic, but media people are dramatic. You know, I think it could aid it in some ways, just like, did the internet kill us? Yeah. But did it aid us? Yeah.

Definitely. You know what I mean? The ones who are innovative and use these tools? Sure. I don't know. It's like saying when the iPhone came out in 2007, would you have predicted Uber? Hurt the tax?

No. You wouldn't. of like, I don't know what's going to be made, but I do think we should take all these tools and use them and figure out where they're best to deliver stories and stuff like that. And I think those who resist it and just sort of, you know, bemoan their fate or destined to fail, that's for sure. Are you using it at all in your... I use it every day. I try all the different ones, different things.

So far I haven't found that much that is helpful to me, but I'm not trying hard enough, right? That's my fault. Some of the summary stuff is interesting. I'm not doing enough writing for it to matter, right? I think some of the translation things on the podcast we're trying out for our podcast to translate into other languages is cool. I just don't know how many listeners we have in Ethiopia, for example. Like, you know, do I need it?

It's cool, or whatever the language happens to be. So I think that's cool. I think some of the synopsis stuff is cool, the transcription. But that doesn't feel like groundbreaking yet in podcasts. I don't think it'll make podcasts that are interesting. So how does that help me? There's not that much it helps me with yet. But I haven't, I'm not in the writing business

or the making of big media company business. So if I were there, I'd think of it in advertising. I'd think of it in subscriptions and targeting people and creating all kinds of new kinds of newspapers for people, personalized newspapers. I would think about that. Yeah, but you don't have to be in, let's say, the writing content business anymore.

mean, you know, Bina, I just transcribed half of YouTube, it seems like, according to the New York Times. Yeah. So if they came to you and said, let us just transcribe, you know, on with Kara Swisher for free, would you let that go into the model or would demand compensation or would you just say? I would. They can't take my stuff. Yeah. They're not shot. They're old times. They're shoplifters. They've been shoplifters forever. So no. They're not just pointing to me. They're taking my things. So no. It's just like YouTube. And to me, the record industry figured this out. So did YouTube. They had pay, right? So they can figure this out. That's what it reminds me of. So I know they're making all kinds

of things. Yeah. Well, right now we have these larger publications doing well like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. And then it seems like the middle has really been hollowed out. And then we have, I guess, like individual creators. Yeah. That's sort of my bet here with big technology. Sure. Is that the path that you see journalism going? You know, you're going to have individual creators who are very influential, of which there are many now, you know, or small companies like an information or puck or something like that, or small and whose new, whose business, whose revenues are in line with costs. That's really important, right? Even if it doesn't make that much money, your revenue needs to be in line with costs. So you're going to see a lot of that, and they're going to be highly

influential, a lot of them. You don't need that much to be. Like, I have three people working on each of my podcasts. I think our podcast's very influential. I think you, you know, you have to have a good business, whether it's subscription or advertising or whatever, we choose, whatever you're selling swag or whatever the heck you want to do. And then you're going to have a couple big ones, like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, that kind of thing. I think the CNNs will figure it out. It's a global information network. They'll come up with a business in line with its costs. I don't think they're out at all. But it's just a re-assessment of where you make your money, which is important to do. Yeah. And I have

I used to have a confident answer when college students, for instance, would ask me, how do you break in to journalism? I'd be like, write your way in, and then someone like a BuzzFeed or a vice will hire you. Yeah, that's not going to happen. No, I think one of the greatest thing that isn't happening is mentorship. There's not, the mentorship is gone, I think, and that's really hard. It's going to be in little bits and pieces, but it's going to be very hard for younger reporters to really be mentored the way I was, for example.

Or even find work. Yeah. Well, then you have to be on your own. you know, it's a little more entrepreneurial, like I said. If you're not entrepreneurial, you're going to have a harder time. Can I ask you how you think about your audience? Like, what is the audience for tech reporting? Because there's clearly like tech, you know, people working in the tech industry.

It is an interesting story for people outside of tech. So when do you think, how do you think about it? I have moved on from the tech pros. I have such a different audience now. Like, I have regular people. I meet them all the time. On this book tour, it was an eye opener. It's my podcast audiences who's buying all my stuff.

listening to me. You know, I have a wider range of people because I've been trying and widen it out. I'm not talking about just tech. I'm talking about tech's impact on their lives, especially kids with kids or things that affect me. So I have, I've moved on from them a long time ago, which irks them, but oh well. That's interesting. So it's both people who tech impacts in their daily lives. It tech impacts everybody. Everybody. Yeah. So I'm talking to, you know, we have couples who call us a pivot we just learn to get along better well great that's a great product or you know i didn't really understand the deleterious effects of social media oh no i do oh good great i'm glad you know oh my job it might be outsourced how should i think about this great i'm here to

help you you know there's also you've also like moved beyond just tech news right you're yeah no i talk about i've always talked about media we've always had a big media element to our so i do a lot media. I've been doing much more politics, but that's because tech has gone in the crosshairs of politicians. So that was a natural step. So I try to do adjacent things and then things that just interests me. I just do myself. So just to keep going on this, so when you think about your audience, it's basically it's tech for everyone. And to do that, you kind of had to shift beyond some of like the day-to-day stuff. Yeah, I don't do beat reporting anymore. But even like what's happened, But you did do the, you broke a lot of news on the open AI firing.

I did. I just was bored. That's because I was really bored. My wife was away with the kids that weekend and I was irritated by how bad the reporting was. And one of the things that really irritated me, this idea, there are all these rumors around smart people I know that were like, he's getting let go because of some gay love thing.

And I was like, that's not true. Like it pissed me off. Like, you know, and I don't know why. I was like, oh, you fucking kidding me, these assholes. This is what they're, this is what the shit they're. peddling. And so I got mad and I started looking into it. And then I'm like, oh, I'll just sweet it. And I'm really good. I have to say, I did a good job, didn't I? I still got it. I still got it. I still got it. I don't want to have it for that much. But I was like, I just wanted

to see how good I wasn't if I could use Twitter and threads to do that. And I did. I got it all out. It was fun. I'm not going to do it regularly. I hear a lot of things I pass on to other people. Do you think you needed a larger audience to then go into the tech for everyday people aspect? No, because you could have the audience. I've always thought you have the, I'm into the fan-based economy, right? I believe in fans. I have fans. I don't have readers. I have fans who want to hear what I have to say. And so I've always thought that. From the minute I did podcasts, I understood that right away. It was not the regular people. It was a people who were, you either have to be useful, entertaining, or must have. You can't get anywhere else. Those are my three,

my three rules for any product I make. And so if I, if you meet all three of them, usually are successful. Yeah, I want to ask you about the, you know, speaking of this, the motivations of people that leak. Now, obviously people leak because they have an ax to grind sometimes, but oftentimes people just leak because they want to talk. So can you talk about that a bit like the motivation? Yeah, I think that, you know, some people are nefarious and they have some, they want a job or something. But mostly they're just mad because it's not out there. And so they want to tell someone they trust. And so I have become a very trustworthy people for someone, like that they feel like they're going to get a fair shake or that I can I have the ear of

powerful people and therefore you know if they tell me they'll it'll have some impact um you know sometimes you get you know people who are close I have a lot of people close to Elon who are texting me which I'm like oh I don't want to hear about this you about his personal problems um you know they just they're here no I don't I don't because I don't know if they're true or not um so um I suspect they are, but I don't know. But, you know, I think people just want to talk. And so I'm a good listener, you know, and I know a lot, and I can find the right place to put it. And so I think that's why they leak. I think in general, you know, I think everybody leaks. It's just not, I don't think it's such a shock that people would do that. And now today, everyone feels the ability to share is

very, you know, it's very current. People do that now on social media, so they don't mind sharing in general. There's no, you know, was it Scott McNally? There's no privacy get used to it. I think he was right when he said that. Yeah. What do you think sources look for in a reporter? I mean, obviously brand and publication work. Sometimes it used to be we'd get everything at the Wall Street Journal. So no, it doesn't, that doesn't matter anymore. I think it's people they trust. I think it's people they think know what they're talking about or they can reach a certain person. So I think a lot of it as trust is the trust that you will do a good and fair job for them that's who leaks to me people who think I'll do a good and fair job and so I that's who I focus in on I don't you don't get

it read I try to avoid people who are angry right I just they're never going to be quite accurate and then you get fucked so yeah I haven't yet gotten fucked but I I really do you know I'm very careful about why they're talking to me I suspect I always suspect they're up to something and then usually they're not. But I start with the premise they're up to something. Right. And I had this question for you about like the fact that you did six interviews with jobs and that tech leaders are going direct now.

But it's almost like when tech leaders go direct and like tech companies are just going direct, it's almost a bigger opportunity for, you know, real hoarding. Oh, I love it. Go keep talking. Like I, you know, they never do well in those three hour conversations. And the people that see that stuff are going to want to get the real story out. Yeah, exactly. Let them do it. Good luck.

You remember when Andreessen Horowitz was doing? it's media up or whatever. Good luck. When they did that, they're like, one of them called me and they're like, we're going to beat you at your own game. I'm like, one, you'll suck. Two, it's a shitty business. Enjoy it.

I don't know what to tell you. Good luck. You aren't going to beat me. You'll close it down and they course close it down. Because it's a shitty business. It doesn't really have that much impact. And it's just easier to talk to a reporter. Yeah.

You know, I've never met a group of people that actually talk about their disdain for the media that never stopped thinking about the media. that's my my interesting little they're just very obsessed with the media in a way that's i'm not obsessed with them for sure right you know okay uh it's the last one for you i've watched a good chunk of the watch and listened a good chunk of the book tour you've uh been interviewed by sam altman and you've gone on bill mar who is the favorite person uh that you were interviewed none of them come on they have to pick one probably Cuban the best conversation was Cuban because I like him, and we laughed a lot, so that was fun.

But I'm always surprised by who does the real. I thought Don Lemon was interesting. You know, I thought that was, because I was right about Elon firing him. Well, I told him Elon was going to fire him the minute that interview came out, and he did. And I was like, you're wrong. And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. Night follows day in that regard. I like, you know what?

I am being honest. I like them all because they're all different. That's why I designed it that way. If I did it with reporters who would have done a great job, it would have been similar interviews every time. And I thought, these people had never done interviews, and they tried really hard to be good, right? And so every question, that was kind of cool, the effort. And then they're always different. Every conversation was different. And so it became interesting for me as opposed to just them. And so I was more interesting. And that way I liked it. Sometimes people surprised you. Sam Alton was a very,

he could have been a journalist, my friend. Like him going, I noticed, you know, he goes, you write a lot about your dad, but there's only one line about your mother. It's very glancing, but not very nice. What's that about? Oh, he really, oh, it was a very good guy. I didn't answer it either, but he knew where to push. I thought, wow, that guy could be a reporter. It was very funny. I was laughing. And I said afterwards, I was like, well done, Samuel. And how did you see that? And then, no reporters have ever asked me that. And he did. And that's a really good question. So, anyway the book is burn book it's by kara swisher bestselling book you can pick it up at your best selling choice i like that part congratulations and then thank you learned a little bit more about

what the second one is going to be so stand by for that you could also find kara on the pivot podcast and on with kara swisher kara thank you so much for joining great speaking with you so thank you so much i'm glad you're an entrepreneur now it's fun isn't it yeah i mean if you think about it the last place i was at buzzfeed news no longer in existence so yeah and you are and you are Anyway. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.