Big Technology Podcast - Kevin Kelly's Life Lessons — With Kevin Kelly

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

Kevin Kelly is the founding executive editor of Wired magazine and a longtime tech writer who's covered technology for decades. Kelly joins Big Technology Podcast for a fun episode, unpacking a series of lists of advice that he’s written. These lists contain short but insightful observations about life, and Kelly goes through a number of his points at greater length in this show. Stay tuned for the second half, where we discuss his essay about 1,000 true fans — a seminal work that helped launch the passion economy — and how it holds up today. Relevant links: 1,000 True Fans 68 Bits of Unsolicited Advice 99 Additional Bits of Unsolicited Advice 103 Bits of Advice I Wish I Had Known

LinkedIn Presents. Welcome to the Big Technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. Our guest today is Kevin Kelly. He's the founding executive editor of Wired magazine and a longtime tech luminary, who's been writing about the tech world. world for decades. Kelly joins us today for a fun episode, unpacking a series of lists of advice that he's written. His lists, and there are three of them to this point, are jam-packed

with insights that have helped me live a better life, and I'm sure many others every time that they read that. And Kelly's also written the seminal essay of the creator economy, the one that's inspired many people like me to decide to go out and become independent. It's called a thousand true fans, and I'm sure we're going to get to that in the second half. And so I am excited to welcome Kevin to the show. Thank you for inviting me. It's a real privilege and honor to be here. I appreciate it.

Awesome. Kevin, one of my favorite essays of yours is this essay called A Thousand True Fans that talks about how creators just need a thousand true fans to be able to make it. I want to definitely circle back to that by the end of this conversation. People have asked for it for your perspective or an updated perspective on it. But before we get there, let's run through the series of advice that you've done. I've highlighted a few, a handful of bits of advice that you've put out there and, you know, I would love to just read some of these to you and hear your thoughts about how you came to them.

Yeah, well, let me just make another little preference. So, so this began when I was 68, I guess, and I felt, well, I'm getting old, and I thought that I would write some advice to my son, who's 25, and I would just kind of put down some things that I kind of knew and I thought it was going to be like a kind of like a birthday present and I started writing them and then I kind of realized that it was fun and I had more to say than I thought and the fun part for me was trying to reduce a lot of vice into the smallest possible number of words as I could to make it really kind of like a little seed that might unfold and what we're doing now of expanding them is sort of like it

It's going in the different direction than what I was trying to do, which was I'm trying to take all the things we're going to talk about, and I wanted to kind of encapsulate it into this really tiny little 10 words. And that was sort of, you know, the tweet metaphor maybe was in mind, although it wasn't conscious of like, can I make this tweetable? So that's what I was doing was doing that. And then I found out that the next year I had more to say. And then I did the third version of that.

And then parenthetically, I just signed a book deal. deal because I have another bunch. And so we're going to do a book with Penguin. Amazing. Breaking news. It is. It just signed it yesterday. It'll be coming out in next spring.

And it's called, right now it's called Excellent Advice for Living. So that's the origins. Origins was kind of like a little gift for my son to kind of encapsulate what I knew. and my intention always was to reduce this to the smallest possible thing. And that's why I thought that it would make for a great podcast because I felt that there were so much more. We're going to unpack these. Right.

So let's go through as many as we possibly can. I really like this one. Don't be afraid to ask a question that may sound stupid because 99% of the time everyone else is thinking the same question and is just too embarrassed to ask it. It's such a clear thing that's true. Yet when you're sitting there with that question, you know, the obvious question, It's always so difficult to get it out there. Yeah, yeah.

For some reason, I don't have the inhibition. And the reason why I mention that is because I am sort of famous for sitting in things and raising my hand and asking the stupid question that everybody else was saying, I wish, you know, I wanted to ask that. But I don't feel embarrassed about that. Yeah, so I don't know where that comes from. All I know is that it really does work. Yeah, you almost always get the most. most revealing questions. They were most revealing answers from that question. Right. And, you know, I think, I'm sure, like all things, you want to do it gracefully. It's not meant to be an insult.

I mean, it could be done as an insult and mean, and that is, you know, that hurts. But I do it in a genuine interest of like, I don't understand or, you know, let me know. So, yeah, I think you've done gracefully, it can be very, very powerful. And, you know, all I can say is is that if you can, you know, get yourself to ask it, everybody will benefit from it. Right. Okay. Here's the next one.

I love this one. Everyone is shy. Other people are waiting for you to introduce yourself to them. They're waiting for you to send them an email. They're waiting for you to ask them on a date. Go ahead. Right. Yeah.

It is amazing. How much happens if you just ask, you know, I'm not a dating expert. I never dated really very much at all. But I hear from very, oftentimes very beautiful women that they're always surprised that people don't approach them in a kind of a natural way. And I think that's the same for me, in my side of it, is, you know, when people ask, I'm happy to help. and if they needed to help and didn't ask, it's like, well, why didn't you ask? And so I think that that's generally in my own experience

on the other end. It's also true that oftentimes, you know, asking appropriately, which we can talk about, yields tremendous results. And so the appropriate thing is like, you know, if you're approaching as someone, you kind of have to be context aware of like, is this a good time for them?

is this what I'm asking is it kind of like can they really is this something that they can do I mean there's lots of people who ask for things that are just like why you're asking me so I think I think there is some context awareness necessary for that but in general ask for what you want ask for it nicely politely and oftentimes that's all it takes and it's interesting because we do have I feel like we have so much fear in us for a little reason. And I think there was another one that you don't have it right in front of me, but you know, you've got to realize that the universe is conspiring for you to succeed. And I think the default position is the universe is conspiring for you to fail, but it's actually the opposite. Right. Yeah, that's called pro-noia instead of paranoia.

Pronoya is where the universe is conspiring to help you. And it's so interesting, by the way, that paranoia is a word we all know, but pro-noia, not exactly. Exactly. There's a book written by a guy who popularized the term. It's not my term called pro noia, which is kind of about, you know, it's sort of woo-woo, new age-ish, but he kind of touts out all the ways in which the universe is trying to help you. One of my favorite recent books that I read is called Humankind. And forgive me, I don't remember the author. But it was one of those books that really kind of changed my mind. Anyways, and the basic argument of the book is that by nature, humans are helpful and not selfish, which is contrary to what we're taught. And he goes through all kinds of evidence, sociological and experimental, et cetera, historical, showing that against our popular conception, the default mode for humans is to help other people. not to be selfish, and particularly in crises when you would think the selfish reflex would engage.

And I totally buy that, that we are basically kind of like programmed to help others and that we don't help. We're selfish only in kind of the exceptional cases. And so that switch I think is very important. And, you know, I think I've always operated with that way, but here was sort of like evidence for my, my disposition. That's right. And speaking of, you know, selflessness, you talk a lot about listening in your, you know, lists of advice. Here's, here's two that I thought were like particularly interesting. We'd love to hear how you came to them. So here's the first one. Being able to listen well as a superpower while listening to someone you love, keep asking them, Is there more until there is no more?

Man, that's good. And then here's the rule of three in conversation. To get to the real reason, ask a person to go deeper than what they just said, then again, and once more. The third time's answer is close to the truth. I think I got some of this from Ethel Perra. I think that's her name. Esther Perl. Esther Perl.

Yeah, who is a psychologist and a marriage counselor and stuff. And these are the kinds of things that... she would counsel and the listening to there's more was a common couples um exercise where um your partner is just you're listening and in the active part of the listening is to so let's say after the first round and say well you know is there more and usually there is more there is another thing. And then the really courageous thing is after all that, you say, and is there more? And that's the kind of going back to that third thing, where usually by then you're kind of going to really getting down to some really fundamental things. And so, yeah, both of those

are back to active listening, which is you're participating in by helping them the conversation to go deeper. And in my own experience, it doesn't take a lot of work to go deeper. People really kind of want to. You're kind of just giving them permission to do that. And by saying, okay, I'm willing, I'm willing to hear now and go deeper. And so I've, I've, you know, done that with people I've just met. And you can go very deep, very quickly. if you are willing to say, and is there more? That's right. It's pretty amazing.

Like, I've done a lot of thinking about listening over the past couple years, just trying to get better at it. A, it's better for my professional life, B, better for personal life as well. And there's definitely been this profound shift for my thinking where it was like, you know, make space for someone to share what they think about a topic versus, you know, going to the next one.

But actually, like, true listening is trying to figure out what people want to say. and then having them say it, you know, giving that space and trying to make sure people can go with the conversation and the way they want. And these are two like really good tricks, this rule of three. Ask, ask, ask, and keep. And then this other one, ask is there more? Practicing this to me seems to be like a good way to get, you know, to take the conversation and shift it into the court of the person. A really common trick for people who are listening in this situation you are of an interview setting, I've seen many people use from Terry Gross to my mentors, to a

brand, which is just to say, like, tell me about X, just, you know, maybe something in passing or whatever. It's like, basically, tell me a story. Tell me, tell me more. Tell me more about X. And so, again, that's, you're giving an invitation. You're giving permission. you're making a space, you're empowering that person to kind of say more about that. And that is, again, it's magical. So let's go to this one. For a great payoff, be especially curious about the things you're not interested in. I just find that I feel so true.

And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how he came to that conclusion. Yeah. I think, you know, a lot of maybe my larger theme I'm preaching is about challenging our own assumptions. And that's a lot of what futures work is about and scenario stuff is really trying to climb out of the little prison that we have by what we assume. And a lot of science. And so part of those assumptions is what we assume. whom that we like and don't like. And particularly as we get older, we kind of have little ruts in some ways. And so kind of exploring something that we're pretty sure we're not interested

in and becoming curious about it is one of those ways to climb out of that, to climb out of that kind of box. And so that is, you know, maybe a kind of acute way of describing this is like, you know, things that you are interested and you might want to be curious about because there can be all kinds of things in there that might surprise yourself. So it's a little bit about surprising yourselves. And that's, for me, that's why I do art and other things and write is because I'm trying to surprise myself. Yeah, love that. By the way, what is this one? Art is what you leave out. Art is what you leave out. So in my own efforts, making art, writing, making stuff.

A lot of what I'm trying to do is you're framing things. And as soon as you're frame something, you're leaving stuff out. The stuff is outside of the frame. And even within the frame, you're focusing and it's kind of a selection process. That's what editing is about.

When I'm editing stuff, I'm basically taking stuff out. You know, it's kind of like the negative space in the sculpture. It's, it's, you can describe, maybe better describe what you're trying to do and trying to select the right thing is, is, you know, you're really trying to leave out everything. And so that process of leaving out is, is, you can arrive at something very similar with just focusing on the leaving out part. That's one of the ways you get to kind of a focus is by subtracting.

So art is what you. you leave out is sort of like you take away anything that's not necessary, and then you have what is necessary, and that's the art. And so it's to suggest that this thing of removing, ignoring, subtracting is actually very, very, very important. Yeah, and it's a great writing tip, too. It's like the more clutter you have, the worse it's going to read. It actually becomes a beautiful to read when you stop trying to like make it flourish and just write it as simple as you can well it's more than that i mean i've turned in pieces to wire i mean i've on both sides of wire both as an editor and as a writer and when i'm writing i've turned in pieces

and they'll say okay this wants to be half the length so we're going to take out half the words what you think half the words and you know well half the meaning no no no no no it'll be it better and we're going to take out half the words and this is going to be better. And so removing half the words of something is, you know, it's quite an exercise and kind of focusing and deciding what works and what doesn't work. And you can easily, you can easily take half the words of most things and have it become better. Agreed. I also love your approach to money in these colleagues.

Here's one that I found particularly nice. Aim to die broke. Give to your beneficiaries before you die. It's more fun and useful. Spend it all. Your last check should go to the funeral home and it should bounce. Yeah. So fun.

There are a couple of books where I kind of was given those realizations. One was called Die Broke. The other one was called Die with Zero, I think. And they both really changed my mind about this aspect of trying to be generous while you're alive were two things or three things. One is you actually have more control about what the money is used for. And secondly, it's much more fun. And thirdly, is probably much more useful to the people who are. receiving it. It's kind of win, win, win all around. And that has, you know, I had a suspicion

when I was a kid that I didn't really want to like save up all my money and have all my money at the end when I didn't really have any, you know, am I feeling well? And I don't really have much use for it. That you kind of, you don't want to oversave. You want to balance the use of money and you want to save kind of like just enough. And the rest of it, you want to invest. in a certain sense into your life that it's much better to take that money and invest to things like if you're young spend money on a course

on experiences in something new that you might want to do and a new skill and so this is kind of an extension of that saying that if you do accumulate something

you kind of want to invest that now rather than later when you don't have control and you don't enjoy it and it's not as useful to someone. So that's been kind of something I've learned in the last 10, 15 years. Yeah, and it may be a corollary to that. This is another one from you. Treating a person to a meal never fails. And it's so easy to do.

It's powerful with old friends and a great way to make new friends. Yeah. Nothing makes us happier than helping other people. And I think having a meal, again, it seems like a. small, trivial thing, but it's really remarkable. We don't do it more often because it is so easy to do. And I was just reminded of this just last night when a person I know had their 70th birthday, and their party was to invite other people to dinner with them in small groups. And so they did six meals with six people each, and that was their gift on their birthday. And it was just

beautiful. It was brilliant. It was so fun. And, you know, and easy to do. So that is something that's a reminder to myself in some ways that it always works. And I never have had to regret about it. Yeah. How about this one? To keep young kids behaving on a car road trip, have a bag of their favorite candy and throw a piece out of the window each time they must be it. Have you done that? How did you come up with that one amendment to that and there's just unwrapped candid because it got really they got pummeled for littering well i mean i mean on the internet um you only have to do it once hmm you only do it one time you've done it one time only one time because yeah it's the threat of it that is that works one do so so you don't need to do it more than once

Kevin Kelly is with us. He's the founding editor of Wired Magazine. You can find his work at KK.org, including the series of advice columns. We'll be back after this to go through some more of his bullet points. And if you don't return, we'll throw your candy out the window. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about The Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than 2 million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes.

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You can find his work at KK.com. I thought this distinction between pros and amateurs was really interesting. Pros are just amateurs who know how to gracefully recover from their mistakes. What do you mean by that? If you watch professional people at work, whether it's someone you hired or you're going to YouTube, it's amazing how often they make mistakes. And to me while to kind of realize that they're making mistakes because, one, maybe they're moving really fast, because they're working fast because time is money.

And secondly, because everything you need to fix is kind of a new and original problem. And that wasn't really kind of, yes, a lot of it is wrote and they've done it before and they know what to do. But they're often and usually some little wrinkle, which is original problem solving. And that's where the mistakes come in. So the point is that very, very commonly professionals make goofs, little mistakes because they're working fast. because they, you know, weren't paying attention or they're accounting something new. And the difference, though, is that they're very quick to recover from them because they have in their bag and lots of little tricks to recover from them.

But they don't let slow them down, and they kind of expect that in a certain sense. And so what they're really good at is recovering from the mistakes by either, some known little trick that they have to hide it or to, you know, redo it quickly or whatever. There's lots of different ways. But the point is that they encounter mistakes and are making mistakes all the time. And that professional doesn't mean that you're not making mistakes as perfect. It only means that you are able to recover from these very, really quickly and hide them to, so to speak. Recover is probably a better word.

Right. And handling adversity is a big part of these bits of advice that you give. I think one of them is if you want to understand the true character of a person, see how irritated they become with the slow Internet connection. And it is like you can really learn how people respond to a lot about people by how they respond to minor inconveniences. Yes, exactly. I think that you're right that the sign of an amateur is sort of giving up or becoming flustered. or somehow thinking that things have to be perfect. And that's something else, maybe as a general theme, is I'm not a big fan of perfectionism. I'm a kind of like good enough-ish person,

satisfying it was called in the technical literature. It's enough to satisfy it. And so I think that that is a sign of professionalism as well and kind of an admirable character is somebody who deals with these adversities because they're not demanding perfection. And I think there was another bit of advice, which was that something can be really good

without being perfect. And weddings was the signature example of that where brides often demand the perfect wedding, but it doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to be good. it still can be wonderful experience without being perfect. So, yeah, I'm not a big fan of perfectionist. Yeah, and there's also, I think you really go out of your way to talk about the need for breaks.

Here's another one. Efficiency is highly overrated. Hoofing off is highly underrated. Regularly scheduled Sabbath, sabbaticals, vacations, breaks, aimless walks, and time off are essential for top performance of any kind. The best kind of work ethic requires a good rest ethic. Rest ethic is another one, you know, along with pro noia that I had never heard before. But I think it's so true that, you know, people feel like it's their productivity, their self is measured in the hours they work, but actually taking these long breaks

seem to go a long way. Yeah. So rest ethic is a term I picked up from my book called I think Time Off that was making some of these same arguments. There's another, I don't know if it's included in this batch or not, but there's another piece, which is that taking a break is not a sign of weakness. it's a sign of strength. If you're able to take a break,

I mean, that's strong. You have confidence. It's a sign that you know what you're doing, et cetera. So don't think of taking a break. I need a break. It's a sign of weakness. No, no, no. That's very wise.

And I do think that slack is underappreciated. And I don't mean just slack. I can take you off, but also... Yeah, not the app. There was, exactly, but there was a great book. I think it was called People Wear, I think. But they were making this case in terms of teams in the corporate world that, in fact, someone done the study of the most effective teams.

And there was like, often in some of the most effective teams, there was one person whose role could not be identified is how they said it and that turned at that person because the role wasn't identified they kind of like were the slack element meaning that when the emergency came up and there was something kind of weird everybody else was like stuffed to the gills with their signed assignments but this one person was able to turn and do that thing because they had this ill-defined slightly slacky position and that you kind of wanted to have slack built into your system in some ways so that it could be nimble and fast and agile that kind of being agile requires to have a certain amount of slack built in because if you're kind of tuned up all the way

and high strung and you're totally efficient there's no room to be adaptable and agile and responsive. So I think it's more than just kind of like this idea of taking vacations. It's like you, I think the most creative people have to have a lot of slack in their schedule. You have to have slack in your kind of your outlook. You've got to have something to give so when this big opportunity, which by the way, it's not going to be labeled a big opportunity, when that comes, you're able to move to it because you have some slack. Otherwise, you're just completely bound by what you're currently doing. Right.

And this goes along the idea of like a, you know, achievement culture where people like feel so pressed to achieve. They forget to live sometimes. And here's another one along those lines. Before you are old, attend as many funerals as you can bear and listen. Nobody talks about the departed's achievements. The only thing people will remember is what kind of person you were while you're. you were achieving. That is so true. Unfortunately, I've had my chance to attend to funerals, particularly as my cohort, ages. And it is, this was born out of my own personal experience.

It was amazing to me how infrequently people talked about the achievements of the departed. But they always talked about what kind of a person they were. And that's all that they cared and we'll remember. So the achievements are just basically a way to be. It's a way to, you know, to exhibit your beings. It's a means to be something and not really the end goal, ultimately. And so focusing on that while you're alive is, for me, part of what I'm trying to do anyway. You know, along the line of that, there's, you know, this fame culture that we have.

People are obsessed with likes and retweets and followers on Instagram. You have a very good way of looking at this. Cultivate 12 people who love you because they are worth more than 12 million people who like you. Yeah, that's just human nature. and liking, and I think somewhere else I say it's like, you know, you don't want people necessarily to like, you want them to respect you. And I think that's part of what, you know, being close to people is about a different, a different kind of relationship than liking.

Yeah, say more about that. Well, it's funny because I know lots of families, particularly larger families, where there'll be brothers and sisters and they actually don't like each other, but they love each other and respect each other. And I think liking is, liking is not at the top of the pyramid. It's a kind of way,

it's a step in towards something much deeper and meaningful to both sides of the relationship. And there are people that I kind of admire but don't like. and there's you know i'm sure there's people that like that um that don't remire and so i i think we just are confused by um by followers and influence and stuff like that from we're confused with with the other kinds of emotional relationships that we really crave and get more from and we shouldn't be distracted by that i think I'm perfectly fine with having millions of followers.

I think that's good when people have that, but it just has to be in the right place and can't be a substitute for other kinds of relationships. And sometimes it is, and that's a problem. And other people are able to understand that, you know, you can have a million followers, and they're just, they're looking at something different, and they don't have that meaning.

In fact, I have talked to people with a million followers and ask them, what do you get from that? And often, it's not very much. And sometimes it's a burden. So it's just less valuable than you might think. And this kind of goes back to something you mentioned earlier

about the 1,000 true fans, which is that... Perfect segue. Let's end with this. Yeah. So go ahead. That you would do much better as a being and as a creator

and as a... doer um to have a thousand people who were true fans then have millions and millions of followers in general and you actually would get more from that and they would get more from you and you know to summarize the the general theory of a thousand true fans it says that um with the modern technology we have of communications, that you don't need to have millions of followers to have a living, that if you have direct contact and relationship and exchanges with true fans, meaning you can deliver them what it is that you do, they can respond, you can engage, they give you all the money directly to you,

then you don't need more than a thousand or a couple thousand of these to have a livelihood. You're not going to become a millionaire of fortune, but you can have a livelihood. Because if you could get a true fan to give you $100 a year, and a true fan should because a true fan is somebody who will buy whatever you do, you're a total, total best fan. They're going to buy the single, the double, the box set. They're going to go to every show you put on. They're going to get the paperback and the harp back and the audible version and the merch.

You know, that's a true fan. And if you can get $100 a year, then $100 times $1,000, it's $100,000 a year. So that's the theory that with modern technology, you can bypass labels and studios and publishers. and go direct to the fans and you don't need all the extra money that those intermediars would demand. So you don't need millions. You only need thousands.

And when I first proposed this pre-Kickstarter and Patreon, it was more of a theory, but it's not a theory because I know, I've been contacted by hundreds and I know thousands of people who make their living with a thousand true fans. And those are just the true fans. And there's concentric circles because outside the true fans are the casual fans.

And so there's a lot of people and the true fans become evangelists for your other fans and followers. So it's an entirely doable goal. aiming to become, have a million followers, to become a bestseller, to have a golden record with going platinum and selling millions, that's not really achievable for most people. But having a thousand true fans is a much more achievable goal for many people. Right. Have you been sort of blown away by the fact that after you're at that I say in 2008, pretty prescient? So have you been blown away that, you know, after that happened? The internet has really, enabled all this stuff to come to come to form yeah whether it is those that you mentioned substack

also you know what has it been like and do you have any any updated thinking on it after you wrote it or do you think the the original essay kind of holds form um well i did an original essay and then i did a revised essay which was prompted by a request from tim ferris and in that second version i had a kind of a additional epiphany which is that um the thing about a thousand true fans is that in a world, again, enabled by technology where we have a global market, that almost any interest, even the interest that only would appeal to one in a million people, some obscure hobby, you know, like soft, saltwater jellyfish aquariums or, that's probably pretty big, but I mean, some, some, the weirdest little collectible or

cosplay fetish or whatever it is even if it appeals to one in a million people with 8 billion people potentially connected there'll be a thousand people on the planet

who will be totally into what you're doing and so we just need to connect with them and find them in match a number which is not a trivial thing to do but it says that your most interesting person that you can think of and doing the thing that you're most interested

and passionate has a potential to support you because it was there will probably be a thousand people in the world who will also want that exact same thing as you do and so um so so that's that's another way in which this thousand true fans is playing out which is a very very very niche thing you know, left-handed fly fishing reels or whatever it is, you can make a living by that because of this new technology. It will allow you to connect directly with those people. Yeah. And one of the lines that runs through all these pieces is just your optimistic viewpoint on life. And I think that it's amazing to look at the world the way that you do. And, you know, I think optimism is underrated these days. So it's good to hear from you. And I appreciate you coming on and

sharing this with us. It's been my pleasure. Thank you for asking some great questions and I really appreciate the chance to share. And that will do it for us here on Big Technology podcast. Thanks again to Kevin for joining us. That was awesome. Thank you, Nick Watney for editing the audio. Thank you to LinkedIn for having me as part of your podcast network. Thanks to all you, the listeners. In the past few weeks, we've been asking for ratings and it does really make a big difference. And a lot of people have come through, really seen lots of five-star ratings come in. And and that means a lot. So I appreciate it. Everyone who's taking the time to do that. We will be back next week for an interview with Mark Bergen, who has a new book about YouTube coming out.

It's a great book. I'm about halfway through it. I will be through it by the time the interview comes around. And I guarantee you're going to like this new podcast coming up with Mark. He's a reporter at Bloomberg, by the way, for those who don't know him. And that will do it for us. Hope your summer is going well. I hope you've enjoyed this sort of lighter content on the pod. We get back to Hard News next. week. All right. And with that, we will see you next week on Big Technology Podcast.