Big Technology Podcast - Of Oligarchs and Billionaires — With Teddy Schleifer

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

Teddy Schleifer covers billionaires as a reporter and founding partner at Puck. He joins Big Technology Podcast to discuss the sanctions against Russian oligarchs, how (and if) oligarchs differ from billionaires, and whether putting pressure on the oligarchs can help end Russia's war in Ukraine. Stay tuned for the second half where we discuss tech's connection to the oligarchs, and whether their money plays a role in Silicon Valley.

LinkedIn Presents Hello and welcome to the big technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation, of the tech world and beyond. Well, if you've been following along with the, War in Ukraine, you probably know that one of the biggest storylines, and probably one of the most least understood storylines about the war, is that the United States and countries around the world are starting to sanction Russia, specifically looking at their oligarchs. There are going to be major implications when it comes to this, taking aim at the rich people coming out of Russia,

and I think that this is a new form of warfare, and we're going to start to see some ripple effect come, come through, and it definitely touches the tech world. So here to discuss it with us today is probably the perfect man for the job. Teddy Schleifer is a founding partner at Puck, a journalist, and a friend of mine. It's been a long time coming, but finally, Teddy is here on the show to tell us a little bit about what the sanctioning of the oligarchs means, both for the global financial system and for the tech world, where they have been, you know, tangentially, if not more directly involved. Teddy, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm excited to try out some of my native Russian that I have definitely not looked up in Google Translate, long-time Russian speaker.

Can you speak Russian? A real Kremlinologist. Sure, let's go with that. I'm a, I have some ancestors who came from Ukraine in, I think, like, 1890, as all good Eastern European Jews do. And so, you know, I feel a special connection to this storyline. Now, your beat is largely billionaires. Did you ever think it would intersect with your past in this way? I can't say that I saw this one coming. You know, I actually do have a serious connection to this. All Moscow jokes aside, my dad, as some people know, I think I told you this, Alex.

My dad came from Hungary in 1956, also fleeing Soviet oppression. And in that situation, there was a revolution in which the Hungarians were protesting against their Soviet overlord. So the Soviets were already there as opposed to an incursion. But my dad escaped to Austria and 56 and then came to the U.S. So all jokes aside, I do feel like this story watching what's happening in Ukraine, you know, does make me think about my lineage to the U.S. and sort of another Eastern European struggling democracy is trying to break free of kind of the Russian orbit. So I am thinking about a little bit about it in all seriousness.

Fascinating. And now it has intersected with the stuff that you work on. And particularly when it comes to the way that the oligarchs are being sanctioned. You know, I'm titling this episode of oligarchs and billionaires. You cover the billionaires really closely. But can you just give us an introduction to who the oligarchs are, how they got their money? Sure. So, you know, many years after 1956, when the Russian economy or then the Soviet economy was liberalizing, there was still a lot of state-owned control over the economy. You know, I think this started with Gorbachev and then with Boris Yeltsin and eventually Putin. And this was not, you know, a liberalization in which. in which, you know, a free market economy just bloomed out of thin air.

Basically, there was a lot of state-owned winners, sorry, state-created winners. And basically what happened was people who had access to the Kremlin. It had more opportunity to enjoy the riches of capitalism than others. Previously, if you had a connection to the powers that be, you were able to win the spoils of capitalism. Now, is that real capitalism? Not really. But what ended up happening was all these sort of state-owned enterprises, probably most prominently the oil companies, the winnings went to people who were politically powerful. And that's sort of what started the original oligarch era, I guess, of 1990 or so. And then Putin came in, I think a decade later. And then eventually, you know, we had the capital O oligarchs, as we now know and love them. who have enormous power in Russia, though I think there's some debate about whether or not they have as much power as the U.S. and the West seem to think they do. But that's how we got here, was it's sort of a vestige of the liberalization of Russia's economy, fall to Soviet Union.

By the way, it's an important point that you bring up talking about how they came into their money, largely from this privatization effort. People have been asking, why do we call them oligarchs, we call the rich people in the U.S. billionaires, is there actually a difference? But it does seem like there is a distinction. Or I'm curious where you're going on? Yeah, I mean, look, I guess a more, more depends on your politics. Because Bernie Sanders is just calling them oligarchs now.

I mean, look, I mean, if you believe that, you know, what's the saying on the left, that every billionaire is a policy failure, if you believe that it is impossible in the United States to accrue so much money. without some crime against humanity, real or metaphorical here, then yeah, maybe you'd think that they are oligarchs, right? You'd think that there was some state coercion. When Elon Musk gets federal subsidies to grow Tesla, does that make him an oligarch? When Jeff Bezos kind of is able to develop a web of kind of contractors and, you know, poorly paid factory workers, is that him subverting the law in a way that is oligarchic because the government is not prosecuting

Amazon? Like, sure, I mean, these things become stretches, I think, depending on, you know, your politics. But I don't think that they, the American billionaire set are oligarchs. I think that they are, clearly have more power than you or I, but in a place like Russia where winnings of capitalism are much, much less kind of evenly shared here. I mean, there's a few people in Russia who have enormous power, and I understand that Bezos and Musk have enormous power. But, you know, I think that those people have come into their riches in a less privileged and less unfair way, in my opinion. What do you think? Oh, I think there's definitely a distinction. I mean, you know, have the, have the billionaires today benefited from, you know, some structural inequalities and some structural issues in the system, for sure. But to call them oligarchs, to me, you know, basically people were handed these billions by privatizing Russian government is such a stretch.

We'll do a live fact check here also. So Bernie Sanders did call them oligarchs. He referred to the baseball owner. when they were locking out the players as baseball oligarchs. I learned you usually when you fact-check yourself on your own podcast, it's like, I got it wrong. But here it's like, no, no, I got this one right. I was paying close attention to the baseball lockouts. So I got the Bernie Sanders angles cover. Zero Pinocchio, the warning.

Exactly. So, Teddy, what has happened in the aftermath of Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the Russian oligarchs as we know them? sure so let's start i guess with the logic russia is you know a quote unquote democracy right um there are free and fair elections of course so the west has sort of settled that's a joke for folks who do not know i was smiling that was a joke capital j joke so russia is sort of a democracy sort of not, depending on how you see it. Come on, Teddy.

It's not a demand. I'm being generous here to our Kremlin overlords. The West's strategy has been, in part, to isolate Putin and to isolate Russia and to create tremendous economic destruction for Russia as a way to show them that this is not acceptable behavior. as part of that there's been frankly a very unanimous western sort of embargo against Russian goods you know lots of Western companies have withdrawn from Russia places are kind of tripping over themselves to step out of Moscow more quickly than their competitors and part of that economic freeze is meant to hurt

the people in Russia, which is not a democracy, meant to hurt people in Russia who seem to have some power over Vladimir Putin, which are these oligarchs. So the notion is, well, Russia might not be accountable to, you know, it's hundreds of millions of residents, but Russia is accountable maybe to, you know, the two handsworth, not two handsworth, but let's say, the two hands worth of oligarchs and they can kind of stage a mini election, so to speak. So maybe Joe Blow in Moscow

doesn't have any power, but let's say Alashear Usmanov I'm sure we'll talk about in a second. Alisher has power and maybe Alishar can call Vladimir Putin and say hey Vladom, you know, you should really cool it with the invasion of Kiev because

my yacht just got seized in the Mediterranean. So I'm not happy about that. And, you know, I would really appreciate it if you would chill with the, you know, battalion and war crimes happening all across Ukraine. So the logic here is, is that there is a way to use the oligarchs against Putin and create, you know, a real kind of democratic cost to Putin by using sort of the central tent of democracy, which is that, you know, the public has power. but in this case, the public is just a very small number of people. So is that going to work?

Obviously, it hasn't worked yet. And as I mentioned a moment ago, there are some critics who wonder whether or not Russia is really as kind of oligarch driven as it was, say, 20 years ago. My colleague, Giuliafayi, has been talking about that. Yeah, can you expand on that a little bit, Teddy? Sure. What's going on? It's just the idea that Russia has changed over the last 20 years. and, you know, Putin has kind of centralized power and that maybe this is, you know, as you were saying a moment ago, Alex, you're not really sure if this is really a democracy.

If this is like a dictatorship totally dependent on the whims of one person is really an oligarchy where, you know, a, it's diffuse power across a large number of people. Because, like, in the example I just gave of Alishar Usmanab, maybe Alishar Usmanov, you know, calls up Putin, calls up Putin and Putin doesn't take the call. In that case, a lot of the Western strategy around kind of using these oligarchs against the Kremlin would prove foolish or outdated. So it's possible the strategy does not succeed. And to date, for instance, I don't know if the oligarchs are signaling Vlad with five seconds disappearing messages telling them to relax. So this is sort of besides the point, but it's something I've been wondering about as this has been going on and where else to ask it.

But here, aren't there like, how are the Western countries or the countries that are seizing the assets of the oligarchs doing it? Like, don't they have legal systems that protect property rights? And how possible is it for a government to just basically take whatever they want from its citizens? That's a good question. I actually don't know the answer. Or not even citizens or visitors. I mean, if we're not asking it here, we should be asking it elsewhere. I mean, that's actually a good question.

I don't actually know how that actually works. I mean, lots of these assets are no longer in, you know, these are not assets in Russia. I mean, I think part of the key here, right, is that lots of Russian assets have been moved overseas to sort of enjoy the beautiful machine that is the free market. So in places like London, there's tons of kind of real estate that's owned by these Russian oligarchs and sports teams there. There are jets and yachts scattered across the Mediterranean. So a lot of these assets are not in Russia. But it's actually a good question. I don't totally know how legally this works in practice.

Yeah, it's interesting because, I mean, you know, like I'm not saying, this is not me arguing against these sanctions. I think they are, there are, sanctions are necessary in this case. but it also is interesting like if governments can just like pick up and take property from anybody in in the country like where else can they go after that from people they don't like so what i'm hearing here is you are definitely arguing against the sanctions is that today i'm not i just well if we were on twitter then you would be dunking on me and saying that but you know i think that this does lend itself for a more longer form conversation and exploring about like you know, where this, where this might go. But let's move on from that exactly.

Sure. So, so it, I want to actually kind of talk about the seizures of a property. It's been pretty, pretty fascinating. I mean, the, the governments worldwide have taken yachts and apartments. I mean, have you, have you been following it? There was like this, there's also these graphics that you can see of like oligarch jets like flying in tandem when they're like, oh, we thought we had like a free, a nice base or a place where we would. sort of be free of, you know, confiscation in one country. And then they learn, okay, maybe that's not going to be the case. And they just all bail together.

So do you have a sense of like the scale and sort of, you know, what's being taken? Yeah. I mean, there's sort of the assets that make for sexier headlines and the assets that do not, right? I mean, there are all these yachts, right, that have become, which I think it covered obsessively by the media in part because not because they're going to necessarily cost that much money, but just because they are symbols, such like beautiful examples of excess, right, in a way. And they're also like physical things that can be captured very easily as opposed to like, you know, an apartment building or something like that. But yeah, I mean, like there's this sort of entire Western government, you know, in the U.S. I think

the DOJ has a special division set up for this, basically to find all these things. And it's not necessarily easy because, you know, the Western assets. Sorry, the assets could be, you know, hidden in faraway places. It's not as if there's just like, you know, some yachts sitting in the middle of the Mediterranean here, right? Sometimes they can be moving. And it's funny, but there's this whole cottage industry of media coverage that basically looks at the kind of where these assets are at any given time. There's also all the sports teams that are owned by various, you know, Russian oligarchs and, you know, Roman Abrano. who owns Chelsea.

He's been under some pressure and clearly all the Russian oligarchs that have assets right now and are sort of have to play defense. And this is not only true from a, in terms of their net worths, it's also their reputations, right? These are people who have sometimes used kind of philanthropy to make themselves seem, you know, like men are very generous patrons of the arts or of sports. And now suddenly, everyone, you may have forgotten that they were oligarchs over the last 20 years. It's just, you know, my friend Yuri or my friend Vlad or my friend Alasher, but suddenly as part of the isolation from the West toward this class of people,

there is now a reminder of just how they got their money in the first place, which is something that I think lots of Western corporations would have liked to pretend never happened. Right. And the higher ed thing that you talk about is definitely in play. I think MIT has gotten a million or a billion from Russian oligarchs. And NYU has gotten, what, something like four million dollars. So they also do touch tech in like a pretty interesting way. You have people like Mikhail Friedman. His letter one has invested hundreds of million in Uber. And then you've done a lot of reporting on Yuri Milner, who's not an oligarch, but has a association with them. I think you call him an oligarch ally. So before we get deep into Yuri, can you just talk a little bit about, you know, is there a tie in with Silicon Valley here? I mean, I guess Silicon Valley takes money. I mean, like any, you know, a big, big pillar of the financial system, there's money coming in from almost everywhere. How significant is Russian oligarch money to Silicon Valley? I think the answer is is not that significant. And in some way,

this makes this easier than I think kind of the freak out over Saudi money, for instance, in 2018 after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. There's not that much Russian money in Silicon Valley, in part because not that much Russian money really has left Russia, you know, except

talking to these kind of isolated individuals. It's not as if, like, you know, Russian teachers' funds are LPs in foreign, in venture capital firms in the way that, like, the Ontario teachers fund is an LP in tons of venture capital firms. So it's pretty, isolated, I would say, overall, and that has had two main effects. One is that it's sort of easy

to have a strong opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine if you, you know, there's no real political blowback. But on the other hand, it's also kind of made the few places that do have kind of ties to Russia more under the microscope. Just because there's, you know, I think obviously the media angle here, the media has decided to scrutinize this. And I guess this is a meta-criticism of myself. I've decided to scrutinize this. Let's not pretend. I thought use the passive voice here. And there's just not that much Russian money in Silicon Valley. And you're correct. There's not that much money that is coming from oligarchs directly. In fact, I'm not aware of any money that's coming from oligarchs directly. Because if there was, this would be like a pretty easy question, I think,

for the industry, right? If there was, you know, Vladimir Putin family office was an LP and Sequoia, I think this would be a pretty easy decision for Sequoia. But we're going to talk about Jeremy Milner in a moment. And I think the precise reason why this is more of a judgment call is that it's not really clear how do you assess Russian money that is not from an oligarch directly, but is sort of indirectly from an oligarch or indirectly was for an oligarch. And that's precisely what makes this a tricky situation, because in Russia, some people would argue that any money that leaves, you know, the borders is in some ways authorized by the Kremlin. I think people could have a good faith disagreement about that. But, you know, does every money,

does every dollar, every ruble that leaves, you know, a bank or a wealth management account in Moscow or St. Petersburg, does every cent of that have some sort of stench? Or can there just be, you know, good-natured, well-meaning capitalists who happen to be Russian and do find this entire exercise of scrutinizing Russian money to be xenophobic, maybe even racist? It's a good question. Teddy Schleifer is with us. He is a founding partner at Puck, which is a great website you should check out. Also, you know, a journalist there. So he has done some great work, including on Yuri Milner. That is the question at hand.

What happens when Russian money comes into Silicon Valley indirectly? You know, is this a witch hunt? Is it, you know, potentially xenophobic? Or is it illegitimate question to ask? We will do that after the break. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about the Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news,

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like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Teddy Schleifer. He's a journalist and founding partner of Puck. You can find Puck at Puck.News. So, Teddy, tell us a little bit about who Yuri Milner is And then again, a little bit about how some of that indirect oligarch money comes into Silicon Valley. So Yuri Milner is, I would argue, Silicon Valley royalty. You know, we talked about Elon a moment ago, Cheryl, Jack, Zach, Zuck, Yuri.

Like, I think he's a first name guy. I don't think, I don't expect average people to know who this guy is, but like listen to this podcast, no Yuri. So he comes here, I believe he sort of is sent or comes ashore, not to be too reductive here, but, you know, he takes a small boat across the Pacific. Now, he comes here, I think, in 2008 or 2009 maybe, right after the myth rose, the financial crisis. And he's helped along here by a guy named Alishar Usmanov, who I've mentioned offhand a couple times. Alasher Usmanov is, I believe, a metal magnate, and is, by any conventional definition, an oligarch. And let's just set the context here of when this is happening. This is, Obama is just about to be elected or has been elected.

He comes into office when the West is talking about things that sound ludicrous in retrospect. Notions like a Russian reset. Dmitri Medvedev was about to become, or I think was the leader of, of Russia. So Putin was theoretically sort of out of picture, sort of. And this is a time in the Russian-American relationship when the idea of money being coming from the Russian government or from Kremlin-connected sources and being invested in U.S. startups was not as crazy as it sounds in March 2022. So Uri comes to Silicon Valley and DST Global, which is the name of its firm. I believe it's the largest LP at the time. I don't even know the exact percentage.

may have been disproportionately. It's larger stuff the other time. It may have been a majority comes from this guy or comes through this guy who is an oligarch. Now, what happens over the next couple of years is Yuri Milner makes this famous investment in Facebook. It's a late stage investment in Facebook. It's sort of been written about in sort of venture capital histories because it was very unique at the time. Uri does not take a board seat at Facebook in exchange for this big investment, which is sort of abnormal. He ends up buying lots of employees shares.

He does lots of things that today in late-stage investing wouldn't be that weird, but at the time, it was like a landmark deal. Everyone thinks Erie Mellner overpays. Of course, the joke is on them because Facebook and his late-stage investment in Facebook makes him fantastically rich. He buys a $100 million chateau,

and I believe in most outdose. It works. And what happens when it works in venture capital is suddenly other people want to give you money. So then I think by the second fund or the third fund, you know, this oligarch ends up being a pretty small amount of the money that Yuri is investing in startups. So much so that as of today, his firm says that only 3% of the money of the total that has been raised cumulatively comes from this dude. Sorry, comes from Russia at all. So why is everyone freaking out about that? That's sort of the question is this money was pivotal to sort of Yuri Milner's American dream being a reality, but he is correct that as of right now, it's a very small percentage of the assets he has managed.

Right. And so before the break, you asked this question basically saying, you know, is someone who has connections to the oligarchs, someone who's like deserving of scorn or can't somebody just be, you know, a well-meaning capitalist of Russian descent? and you know have the system you know just sort of let it be and you know let's be honest our society is definitely prone to witch hunts I don't know which one which one is in this case but you've been you know doing a lot of reporting on it I'm curious what your what your perspective is on that question so Yuri is also an Israeli citizen he still I believe has Russian citizenship but he's not you know and he obviously lives in the U.S. I think he moved here in 2000 around the time you bought the house 2009, 2010.

Look, I think if this was I'm trying to think of a good sort of analogy here. Let's say, you know, Yuri was from like some other country that is equally heinous

but maybe isn't quite as closed off. I'm going to say something that's incorrect, but like I'm thinking like let's like I think if Yuri was not from Russia, right? where there is kind of strict capital flow, you know, you could say that, hey,

just, you know, just because Yuri, uh, Yuri should not be assumed to be perpetually, you know, an agent of the country he was born, which of course was not his choosing.

And he came to the U.S. eventually and, you know, has a American life right now and, you know, speaks perfect English and is a normal, you know, I've met Yuri before.

He's a normal, normal guy who just happens to be Russian, right? Um, I think, if you were to say, you know, why is this being kind of used as prejudicial evidence against this purpose and perpetuity, you know, that maybe is discriminatory. But in this situation, you know, I think there's a good debate. And I don't know if I have the, if I have a definitive

answer here, Alex, but there's a good debate about whether or not any individual could get money out of Russia without being in some way tied to the Kremlin. Now, you know, is, does, is, you know, Vladimir Putin, like, texting Yuri Milner every day and saying, you know, please say X or Y. You know, this begins to sound like kind of theories about, like, John F. Kennedy being, you know, in the pocket of the Pope. That's very Alex Jonesy. Yeah. Yeah.

But clearly this is a unique situation. And I wonder what folks who are more well-versed in sort of the way in which the Russian economy is currently structured, or whether or not Yuri could be seen as totally independent agent or whether not he still has some ties to kind of, you know, Russia. I wonder, you know, if you'd see a family or property there at all or anything like that. It's a hard call. I think if this was any other country, I think Yuri would be correct that, you know,

this is pretty discriminatory. In this situation, it's hard to get out, kind of to have money that leaves the country ever without feeling that way. Right. And so, so actually, Yuri's had these last. like a pretty interesting reaction. He like initially was silent and then he decided that he wanted to comment and he actually came out pretty strongly against the war. So can you talk a little bit about the progression of his of his statements? It's been a fascinating evolution and

require some criminology to understand or Talmudic analysis of various sentences. You know, I first reached out to Yuri Milner's team probably a month ago at the time this is going to come out. You know, At the time, Russia was clearly barreling toward war. Western countries were beginning to kind of put into place that quasi embargo or that blockade or that the sanctions regime that eventually followed. And I was curious what you really thought about it. I mean, it seemed like a pretty normal request given his well-publicized ties to the Kremlin, at least historically, he at first was kind of laying low.

He didn't say anything, I think, for maybe a week or 10 days, which is, you know, fine. But clearly, I can tell you, I wasn't the only one asking because this was not an entirely media-created controversy. I was at a tech conference in Los Angeles a couple weeks ago. People were definitely talking about it. That was kind of stage one, act one of this three-part play. Act two is the statement that Yuri Milner's foundation, which is called the Breakthrough Prize Foundation, releases. It's on March 3rd. I'll read you kind of a line from it.

And then, Alex, I want you to listen to this and try and come up with the word that I never say. Okay, are you ready? I know what it is already. It's Russia. Well, play along for the audience, okay? Yeah, I've read your stories, but yeah, go for it. This is called a gimmick, okay? The Breakthrough Prize Foundation was established to help nurture humanity's highest qualities,

honesty, curiosity, creativity. Their values are at the root of all scientific progress, blah, blah, blah, blah. War is the opposite. It shows humanity at its worst. it feeds on lies, prejudice, destructiveness. It breaks us apart and changes to the errors of the past. The current war in Ukraine is no exception. Blah, blah, blah.

In light of the devastating war and the tragic humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine, the breakthrough Prize Foundation today pledges to make an emergency contribution, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, that's the gist of it. What's your answer? It's very passive voice. There's a war in Ukraine, but it doesn't really talk about, like, where the war originated who started the war

there's a reason why the breakthrough prize is making this statement it's because of your involvement yes the missing word is Russia like you know it's just like there's this devastating war

and this tragic crisis catastrophe and it's like wow you know this is almost like poetry as you read this you know and there's just no description of kind of what caused this war in the first place so that's act two And the third statement comes out, you know, a little over a week ago by the time this airs.

And it's just a very, very different tone. I'll read you a quick snippet of that. I'll spare you the play acting by my voice. You know, it says as the terrible war on Ukraine continues with casualties and atrocities mounting, the Breakthrough for Ice Foundation strongly condemns Russia's invasion of Ukraine and it's unprovoked and brutal assaults against the civilian population. You know, clearly the situation changed. and the breakthrough prize, and, you know, that doesn't get released without Yuri's agreement.

I'll just tell you that. And his firm eventually releases a similar statement that is similarly harsh. So Yuri kind of goes from being very cautious, sort of avoiding reporters, to, you know, making it clear that he is done with Russia. Like, it's hard to believe after these statements that Yuri Milner will have any relationships in Russia going forward, at least with Russian oligarchs and Russian powers. And to some extent, maybe that's like a reflection of reality, right? Which is that it is impossible to be, like the idea of this reset that I mentioned, you know, earlier, you know, now 15 years ago where you can sort of be half in half out. You can be in the United States, but still business relationships in Russia.

It kind of feels like, you know, we're creating a new hermit kingdom in perpetuity. and maybe Yuri is just reflecting, you know, the reality, which is, look, he lives in the United States for a decade plus now, you know, he's a famous investor, he hosts this big awards gala, he's a celebrity, he owns this big house in Los Altos, like, he's done with Russia. He's an American king, and like, who cares about whether or not he is, has a relationship to the oligarchs anymore, because the oligarchs are on the downslope and he's on the upslope, so who cares? Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, you know, it's definitely great area.

in terms of like, I mean, this guy should definitely should not be, Yuri should not be punished in the same way that the oligarchs are. He's just not one. So it's hard to imagine. Even if he's had a relationship with them, I think the point that his money is just a small percentage coming from them at this point is important, even if it was crucial for the seat. That being said, it does seem like signaling is kind of crucial here.

And so like, you know, well, it's when we're in a moment like this, you know, I think it's important for. people to talk about where they stand and when when you know when you do have that association when you have taken that money you know it shouldn't be that hard i mean the the the money makes it a level of difficulty but i also think that like the money adds a level of difficulty but it shouldn't be that hard to come out and say hey wait a second this is this is wrong what's happening and that and that signal is crucially important because you know if people like yurie stay silent then you might have some sort of belief that, you know, the war has broader support over the world

than it does. But when everybody, including Yuri, are coming up and saying, hey, this war is wrong, I think that matters a lot. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I'll be honest, I think the statement from Yuri was stronger than I expected. I sort of thought he would leave it at the first statement, which was, you know, enough to get reporters off his back and, you know, at least this way he's saying something like war is terrible, you know, maybe it could be a, you know, a Rorschach test. and people could read into what they wanted. In some ways, it was maybe I'm giving Yuri too much credit now.

In some ways, I thought I was brave to release it because you are sort of severing ties, I think, when you press publish and the fact that it's coming from Yuri matters in a way that like, you know, honestly, like these like corporate statements from like old Navy, like who cares what old Navy thinks about the war in Ukraine. But like, like, you know, there's,

The significance there is minimal, but the significance of, you know, at least an oligar connected business leader saying that I think actually does matter, at least for, you know, the signaling that you're talking about, you know, does it actually matter for, you know, convincing Putin not to do it? Like, I mean, in this situation, it would be, well, is you're already going to call up Alice Sharer Usmanov, who hasn't invested in his fund in, you know, a decade? And then say, and then he's going to call Putin. Like, clearly, we're now, I think it's possible to argue that Uri's ability to change the fate of history here is overstated, but it's a good signal. Yeah, all these signals cumulatively, I think, do make a difference, even though at this point it might not be evident, but I think they add up. Can I ask you a question? What do you think of the, just how big tech has responded to this in general?

I mean, do you think it's been sufficient isolation of Russia? You know, I was going to ask you about this versus sort of a good segue. I mean, I can give my perspective on it, but like it is interesting to see so many in the tech world pull out of Russia this way, like Apple, for instance, shutting down its retail stores there, but operating freely in China. And I'm not saying China is, you know, killing on the same level as Russia is. But like, there are definite human rights abuses going on in China. So why is Tim Cook, you know, making calls to Xi Jinping and talking about how they can work on this great partnership, but also at the same time, you know, pulling out of Russia? And I wonder whether this is, you know, whether there's ideological consistency or opportunism and public relations stuff that's going on there. Because until some of these actions are taken across the board, to me, it's kind of hard, you know, to take them seriously.

Now, with Facebook, it's interesting. Facebook this week was named an extremist organization by Russia. So, you know, it hasn't really been in their court. It's actually been Russia, you know, taking action against this platform that enables. And I know it's like people might laugh for this, but free speech, you know, and clearly Russia doesn't want, you know, that to happen. And so now they're going to outlaw Facebook or, you know, designated it as extremists and put restrictions on the company.

But yeah, I really do wonder when it comes to some of these tech companies that will, like, happily, you know, pull out of Russia when, you know, in this moment, not that I'm saying they're wrong to have done that, but I wonder, like, where is the consistency when it comes to stuff like doing business in other places with human rights abuses? Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, who says a corporation has to be consistent? Well, they don't, but we can call them out here. and especially company like Apple that tells us about how great it is all the time. Maybe we should hold their feet to the fire a little bit and say, hey, what's really at the heart of this company? Well, I mean, look, I mean, I think part of the difference between China and Russia to say nothing of the difference in, you know, human rights abuses or otherwise is like it's just a reflection of capitalism, which is that these companies are much more dependent on China than they are in Russia. So it is, this goes about saying a moment ago about kind of venture capital firms, it is easy to be courageous and put out, you know, a fire restatement when you do very little business in this country. Like, I mean, you would know better than I would, Alex, but, you know, Apple is far more dependent on China than it is on Russia. So these companies that are pulling stores, like, okay, thank you, old Navy for, you know, your courage here. But this is not affecting the P&L in a way that. Exactly.

Real courage like China would take it. Yeah, especially now that the ruble has tamed, like, you know, and the Russian economy is, I mean, partially due to these moves, but the Russian economy wasn't going to support these companies in a way that, you know, a country like China can. Right, right, right. So, you know, there's one thing that I want to ask you if we come towards the end here, which is that we've mentioned a couple times that the Russian oligarch money doesn't usually leave the Russian financial system.

I find that interesting because the symbol that we have. of the oligarchs is that, you know, this is the way that the money is, you know, whatever, like washed or laundered, you know, from some of the stuff. I don't think those are the right words. But that's what people refer to them as. But like this is, you know, the oligarch money going to Europe is sort of like everyone seems to have this belief that actually the Russian money is making its way out of Russia. They're out of the Russian government into the hands of the oligarchs and from the hands of

the oligarchs into European societies, largely. but that's not the case. So can you elaborate on that a bit? Yeah, I mean, I think there could be a good debate about what, you know, how easy precisely it is to do this, but, you know, and certainly what I'm kind of overgeneralizing over decades of Russian capital flow, but, you know, it is not like, you know, if you are a investor in New York City, it's not like, you know, placing an investment in a startup up in, you know, Ohio. It's a little bit harder to get money, to obviously to create money

in Russia. This is, again, not a 100% Adam Smith engineered free market. And then to get the money out is not as easy as it looks. I'm not the world's expert on that, but it is not, I think the question is just how difficult is it and does it necessarily require some kind of wink and nod from, you know, Putin and his cronies to get the money out or, or, because in that case, then you would argue that every dollar is dirty, uh, if it required, uh, at least a little bit of, of, uh, blessing from, uh, the Russian government. Um, but if you, if you believe that Russia is more of a free market economy than maybe I'm giving you a credit for, uh, you know, then in this situation, then maybe every dollar is not kind of a piece of compromise or, or, or,

or a piece of ignoble fortune, that it's just another Russian guy with a dollar to spend. Didn't the Russian oligarchs make some sort of mistake by putting so much money into the global financial system given that it could have, you know, as we're seeing, it can easily just disappear. I mean, even Russia had like a good chunk of its financial reserves elsewhere. So I'm curious if there was a mistake, like it's not, yeah,

like a tactical mistake made there. I mean, clearly they should have just, you know, berated in a in a like small stettel in uh in somewhere in like you know uh ukraine and could have just gotten on the way out the door um no there there is no uh it caught that that's stupid um i'm leaving that in teddy we're not making it over time i don't know i don't even know I'm saying it's yes uh you know the building these asceticious yachts that are just you know, begging to be seized purely for the optics, public relations blunder by the oligarch set that I will not be repeated once.

Not even a public relations, but like a strategic error because it left their finance is vulnerable. You know, Alex, if they had invested in big technology, you would not forfeit their shares to the U.S. government or the government. Are we just at the part of the podcast where you rag on me? honestly if they had invested you know in puck i think we really would have been could have been a win-win but unfortunately uh puck was created uh several years after the uh liberalization of the russian economy i see yeah yeah whatever we're not taking any outside investment at big technology just FYI um rubles dollars none of it no none only advertisements um what what is going to is there any implication to the global financial

system. Here, do you think that, you know, people will become more wary of putting their dollars offshore? Or is this just sort of a unique case? I do not think so. Look, there is a, I do not think that this will materially change kind of the way in which assets move around the world. Look, the kind of kleptocrats, not just in Russia, but in any of these kind of less democratic economies, sort of play, choose your own adventure when it comes to the ways in which their assets and, frankly, their entire lives are structured. There's a good book called Moneyland by Oliver Below that came out three or four years ago,

or a reporter in London who sort of wrote about Moneyland, which was this, you know, kind of vague idea and a construct where, you know, if you're a wealthy gazillionaire, you know, you don't only choose where your assets are parked, but you might choose where your citizenship is from, right? You'll choose to incorporate your company in this country or that country because you're sort of on a maximalist adventure to structure your life in the most cost-effective, permissive, and sort of liberal way possible. So that's why you see countries like Switzerland most prominently, but also, you know, Isle of Man or Jersey or in the United States, my home state of Delaware, people will, that are wealthy, can kind of have the luxury

of maximizing their life to enjoy all of the world's riches. And, you know, who's to say that you need to be Russian with your kind of assets in London? Why not be a Cypriot and, you know, have sip, sit right, cypress citizenship and keep your homes in America or in Bermuda or in Panama or wherever your heart desires. And ultimately, the world is pretty interconnected at by this point. And lots of these countries, it's in their national interest. You know, Alex, you were in El Salvador recently, right, where people are obsessed with Bitcoin. People, countries that are small, especially, it's in their national interests to do what is best for their economy, which often means kind of having permissive laws that encourage investment,

whether it's in Bitcoin in El Salvador or anything else or in Delaware. So ultimately, I think the goose is cooked here and that the world is so interconnected that wealthy oligarchs or kleptocrats or American billionaires can take advantage of each individual country's laws on individual matters. and, you know, this Russian sort of freeze and isolation will probably prove to be an exception. You mentioned Bitcoin, and I have to ask you about it. I actually had a question written down, and it was just Bitcoin question mark. But I really wonder why this hasn't led to, you know, a greater flow of money into Bitcoin.

I would imagine that most of the world's richest people want to put themselves inside, you know, a permissionless currency that could. be sanction free or harder to sanction than the stuff in central banks or in banks in general. It's interesting. I mean, I mean, the kind of the crypto angle in this story for me has been, has been sort of of the philanthropic response. You're seeing lots of assets come through, lots of crypto philanthropy. I think this is kind of the first moment that we're seeing, you know, the crypto nerds using all of the tools in their crypto toolkit to get money into a place like Ukraine where

it's hard to get money right now. And this is definitely a new world order. But you're totally right. If you were a Russian oligarch, just putting that shit on a USB drive and calling it a day would be nice, right? Well, I mean, from that person's perspective, it would be better. But there hasn't been an influx into Bitcoin at all. In fact, I think the price has just been.

has been down since the invasion. Oh, no, it's up slightly. All right. Last question for you. You cover billionaires extensively. Like we mentioned earlier, we saw Bernie Sanders try to brand, you know, rich people in America as oligarchs, the baseball oligarchs. Do you think that this newly awakened...

It's pronounced oligoths. Yes. Do you think this newly awakened consciousness about oligarchs? will lead to any change in terms of like the political football that is billionaires in the United States. It's a good question. I mean, to some extent, this has like, you know, like there's a lot of patriotism flying around right now, right? You know, I was walking in my neighborhood earlier today and I just saw like a Ukrainian flag on like a random apartment building a knob hill. I don't know what story there is. And to see,

some extent, I think this crisis has made not to get too, uh, uh, to wax too jingoistic here, but, um, I think it's made some people like feel like the American economy is a beautiful thing and American democracy is a beautiful thing, um, which might make people, uh, less sort of in favor of kind of economies more like Russia, where, you know, billionaires are, I guess in some ways that they're more entrenched, but, you know, it's also a less kind of, you know, rigidly laissez-faire economy, or at least it's been historically. So I don't really know. I mean, I do believe that the situation in the U.S. is different than Bernie Sanders is making it out to be, and that there is clearly

inequality and substantial inequality, but it is not an oligarchy here in the United States. You know, maybe it has oligarchic elements, but it is non-oligarchy. And I think the real kind of... telling or a kind of decisive moment in an American will be just how this inequality that has been growing by the year, how this gets resolved. And I was talking with a wealth manager earlier today and someone who represents, you know, people with hundreds of millions of dollars and assets. And like we were just sort of going back and forth on this very question, Alex, about like when do the pitchforks come and, you know, and what flanks are the pitchforks?

arranged and what kind of the American inequality ends up bearing out. I don't think it's going to end up bearing out in, you know, sort of a despotic, you know, Putin-esque invasion of another country. But clearly there's like the simmering resentment in the United States that, you know, Bernie gives voice to, but it's not going to end well. And then you got to think something's got to give eventually. no? Well, look, I don't know where it's going to go, but my prediction on this one in particular is that we start to see the word oligarch use as a label for billionaires in the United States

and obviously from the left. And I think that's only good a ramp. I think Bernie likes how it's gone so far. So there will be more. The oligarchs are taking over. I actually do a good Bernie impression. I was about to say that was terrible. I do I do a good. I also do a good Obama, but that's for the Patreon only, only only, that's for the Puck subscribers out there. You get the, you have the Obama impression for only $9.99 a month, sign up for Puck and you can get a sweet Obama impression on your voicemail. Like, wait, wait, don't tell me. Well, look, you know, I think that's a great way to leave listeners hanging. You know, I think that we deliver the goods and then just drop this massive.

of anger at the end. Teddy, where can people find your work and where can people sign up to read your stories at Puck? Sure. So I guess the best URL is to just go to puck pukk. News and then wind your way over to the newsletters page and what I write is called The Stratosphere. It's also in my Twitter bio at Teddy Schleifer. And you can find it right in my bio. And that's also an easy way to sign it. Find it. I'm very online. around. And I think if you are interested in the oligarchy, the ascendant oligarchy, the striving oligarchy, happy to be your narrator of this world. Amazing, Teddy. And any shout outs you want to give? Shout out to Rooney, maybe. Yeah, of course, my cat is a big, big technology

listener, really, since the early days. And shout out to you, Alex. I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller. Great to be on the pod. That's great to have you. Thank you. you, Teddy Schleifer, for coming on the show with us. Thank you, Nate Goatney, for editing and mastering the audio. Amazing job, as always. And thanks for the quick turnaround. Thank you, LinkedIn, for having me as part of your podcast network. Very exciting. First month comes to a close and more good stuff to come. And thanks to all of you, the listeners. Appreciate you being back here every week. If this is your first time on the show, hit subscribe. We do these every Wednesday with shows with Tech Insiders and Outside Agitators.

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