Big Technology Podcast - Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff Has Thoughts on AI Agents, Automation, and The Future of Your Job

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Marc Benioff is the CEO and co-founder of Salesforce. Benioff joins Big Technology Podcast for a wide ranging discussion on AI agents, automation, and the future of labor. In this episode, we discuss his vision for AI agents and how they'll transform the way companies interact with customers. Tune in to hear why Benioff believes the future isn't about personal AI assistants, but rather company-specific agents built on robust data systems that can take effective action on our behalf. We also cover his thoughts on Microsoft's Copilot, Klarna's provocative statements about abandoning traditional software, whether he'll sell Time Magazine, and what happened with Elon's purchase of Twitter. Hit play for an illuminating conversation about the future of work, enterprise software, and how AI might create a new era of business productivity. --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [e-mail]

Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff is here to talk about AI agents and plenty more. That's coming up right after this. Welcome to Big Technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. We have a great show for you today because we are thrilled to be joined by Mark Benio, the CEO and co-founder of Salesforce. I've been hoping to speak with him for a long time and we're finally doing it today. Mark, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. So I've been deep in your interviews, your keynotes, your presentations over the past

a couple of weeks trying to prepare for this, trying to think about what you're up to at Salesforce. And actually what's interesting is through the technology decisions that you've made, you're actually making a pretty strong statement on labor. And what I mean by that is I think there's a common view that we're effectively efficient on labor, that everybody in their jobs is. doing about the best that they can be doing that is as productive as they can be. And if you give their tasks to, let's say, AI, they'll be gone. Your approach with Salesforce, especially as

you've rolled out agents, and we're going to get into that, is effectively that's completely wrong. And tell me if I'm right on this. But basically what you're saying is we're nowhere near our capacity in our current jobs because so much of our work is spent on drudgery. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to automate and I'm going to extend a lot of what people are doing and you're going to see that it's not going to lead to job loss, but it's going to lead to a more efficient ability to work and an extension of the way that we work. What do you think about that thought or that takeaway from what you've been up to?

Well, I mean, it's been now a few months so we've really been able to start talking about what we're working on and it's the most excited I've ever been about the software industry. And I think you're kind of touching the third rail of what's going on, which is that we are building software that just isn't helping companies manage and share information, which is kind of what we've been doing for the last three or four decades. But we're really going to provide software that is really a very much an equivalent of labor. And I think that is a big thought that we really see, you know, unlimited labor and the

of an unlimited workforce and the level of abundance, the time. that can create for our companies and ourselves and what that can start to mean for our society. And we can talk about some examples that I already see happening with our customers, but we're definitely at an incredible new moment, a new horizon for business. This is an opportunity for us to really look at what is possible with technology and how it really unleashes a new capability within business itself. And look, we're going to touch on agents, but I want to go back to the point here, which is I want to get your thought really. on the productivity of people.

You know, we've gone from the industrial era where we're creating widgets, right? Someone creates an idea and then everybody's just executing. Then we went to the knowledge economy where it's like supposed to be about knowledge, but still so much of our day is effectively making those widgets. It's filling out reports.

It's moving data from spreadsheet to another, and this is sort of like the most low-hanging fruit. It could also be creating plans, right? Like sometimes that stuff that we, you know, feel as value at as takes very low. little ingenuity. No insult to the marketing planners out there. I used to be one. So can you talk a little bit about what your feeling is there? Because because you're building this set of automation tools with Salesforce, you must feel like there's opportunity out there

to make labor better, more productive, more efficient. Well, let's take specific examples and try to tell some stories and see if we can inspire people with these stories. And you can't really tell, but I'm wearing a boot here on my right foot because I were going at the medical example. Yeah, let's do it. A couple months ago, I'm almost done with the boot. But it's been an interesting experience, and I'm sure that all of us have had lots of different experiences with the health care industry in the United States. And look, health care is the largest industry in the United States. That's number one.

And we all know that in the United States, we're very much our own advocate for our health. So think about it like this. I'm going in to have my boot, my boot, my ankle, my Achilles scanned, and they say to me, hey, play here, we're going to do this, that, the other thing, and a couple things. We're going to use this contrast, and you're going to want to flesh this out of your body, you're going to drink eighth glass of water over the next day or two. You understand that, yes, and we're giving you this, the meds here, and you're going to take those, and you'll finish them, won't you, of course?

And then you really don't hear from anybody for a month or two. And so whatever the rehab instructions they're giving you or the medication instructions they're giving you or drinking the water instructions that they're giving you, no, you're really on your own. You're your own advocate. You're in charge of your health. And no one is exactly going to call you the next day and say, did you drink the water? Did you take the drugs?

Did you, are feeling okay? Do you need to come back for another scan? Do you need an appointment with your doctor? do you need your labs redone? Because there aren't enough people to do that. You go and talk to any major hospital or medical institution. I work with UCSF in San Francisco. It's a great institution. Even there, and it's one of the largest employers in the city, there just aren't enough people to do the jobs. I mean, these are jobs where patients need very specific, detailed coaching and information and ideas. And how are you going to provide that? And the answer is, with

that software has really gotten to the point where software can deliver another level of the workforce and agents like we're calling or an agentic layer on top of UCSF, you know, so that as I'm interacting with UCSF, not only do I have to wait for somebody to call me back or to actually get an appointment with a doctor, but I'm interacting with that agentic layer and it's able to kind of mitigate for me on all the medical information but also all the UCSF services. and all the scheduling, and all the things that I really want to get done with UCSF. So that idea that even in our largest industry, we don't have enough people to really achieve the health care or that you could really have not just an advocate for yourself, but a guide

that would help you become healthier, that idea, that's a big thought. And when you start to apply to other industries like financial services and how you're managing your wealth or education. and how you're managing, you know, how your children are being educated or even, you know, how you're dressed across the board. Who are you really working with to kind of achieve your goals? And in many cases, there's going to be an opportunity to do that

through this agentic layer and through agents. And this idea that you're going to have a limitless workforce and that you're going to have a level of abundance, not only as a consumer, but on the flip side as a CEO, that my company can do things that it couldn't do before, where it was trapped by labor. So this is the unlock, this is the opportunity, and this is the new horizon for business.

Yeah, and I'm going to let the labor angle go in a second, but I have to keep talking about it because the way that you describe what's happening in medicine is not AI replacing a doctor. It's a doctor simply cannot get on the phone with you because honestly, at least in the U.S., their time and probably everywhere. Their time is so prescribed by insurance and billing

that they have to be seeing as many patients as possible and filling out as much paperwork as possible. And you don't have time to be a doctor anymore. And what this could do is it doesn't replace. It just enables the workers to be able to do the activities that they want to do otherwise. In fact, we did a story in big technology not long ago speaking with Mayo Clinic. Because remember the example of how radiology was going to be totally automated by computer vision. Well, they had 11 computer vision models working in Mayo Clinic.

and they're hiring radiologists. That's the future, I think, that we're looking at. Well, that's exactly right, that this is about humans with agents working together. And that idea that the labor force and productivity is going to expand because of that is real. In the third quarter, and in 2024, we haven't had a labor force expansion

in the United States. It's stagnant. But we had a productivity expansion in the third quarter, and economists are attributing into the growth and expansion of artificial intelligence and what's happening right now as tools that we're all using.

So we're able to expand productivity, which is linked to GDP, and we're able to expand our labor force without hiring more people. This has never been done before in the history of business. So we are definitely at a threshold moment. We are able to look at what's happening in a new way and come up with new ideas. In the past several weeks, as we've been rolling this out to our customers, and we have put this in 135,000 Salesforce implementations, Just need to turn it on.

You know, we're talking to so many customers, but some of the folks that I'm talking to are a lot of bank CEOs. And bank CEOs are interesting because when you talk to bank CEOs here in the U.S. Or maybe Canada or Australia, in many cases, they've expanded their business with lots of new products, but they haven't expanded geographically. Maybe you see a Canadian bank expanding in the United States, but rarely do you really see these banks really attempting to go global? And the reason why is because of the labor issues associated with going into new markets

or providing very high quality financial services and capabilities in new geographies that can benefit them. The same analogy can be in health care, by the way. But this idea that those banks could expand and grow, when I am actually able to tell this exact story to a bank CEO and say, you're not going to have to hire those people to expand your U.S. bank into the U.K., that you can take your trusted brand, your system, your ideas. And yes, you might have some people on the ground, but it's not going to be absolutely constrained to the labor force that you're hiring, that this is a new opportunity for you. That is very exciting. And I think we can start to reconceptualize business itself, the products that we're in, the geographies that we're in, the size of our workforce, that we're working with humans

and also agents together, just like you said. This is a big thought. This is not science fiction. not the future, this is now, this is the present, and we're seeing some great examples. And whenever I get optimistic about this stuff, I always have to like bring myself back to reality and say, okay, the best companies, like the Mayo Clinic, of course, they're going to use this to be better at diagnostic. They are going to expand and they're going to be better at what they do. But then there's a lot of like bottom line driven kind. Every company's bottom line, but like ruthlessly bottom line driven companies, short thinking companies that basically want to milk the margins, they might use this stuff to really cut workforces in a big

way. You worried about that? For sure, people could rebalance their workforce. Let me give you an example as the CEO of a large company. Yes. I have a very large company, 75,000 people, we're a Fortune 100 company. We're the second largest software company in the world. We're the number one largest provider of CRM. And of our 75,000 people, one of the things that we do is we interoperate with our customers, 135,000 companies who basically ask us about 2 million questions a year. And they do that online, and they also do that on the phone. And it's not unlike the medical organizations that we're working with, like the one that I was just talking about. They do 24 million, you know, basically technology-based increase a year and 12 million phone calls. So all of us have

this mix of phone calls and emails. And, you know, we've tried our best. to kind of use deflection systems to kind of reduce the emails and reduce the phone calls. But it tends to be a very kind of constraining thing and can start to take up a lot of your employees, time, energy, focus, and it's not the best use of their time. So now that we've deployed agent force internally, and if you go to help.salesforce.com, you'll see agent force running, or if you go to the front of our website, you'll see agent force running in the United States. And then, you know, we can say, all right, we've got maybe eight or 10,000 people who are in support who are working on this.

Some number of them now are going to get freed up to be able to do other things. And let me tell you, we're an incredible, fast-growing, exciting company with a lot of opportunities. I can rebalance my workforce and put those people who have those very good skills working with customers to do other things. They can be business development representatives, sales development representatives. They can do lots of other things. And so we can rebalance, you know, what we're doing so that we can grow. We can get more market share. We can innovate.

We're obviously fighting the number one software company in the world, which is Microsoft. So we want to be able to do more and expand and go faster. And that's very important to us. Right. And I guess the best run companies are going to take that route. But then I worry about the ones that aren't run well. But let's get deeper into this agent force rollout that you guys have been doing. So, you know, there's this like what is Salesforce?

meme, I think it's pretty clear. It's a system that will enable companies to do customer service, sales. I used it when I was in sales, locking all of our interactions, letting my manager know what I was going to close and what I wasn't, which is probably why I ended up moving away from sales. There's also marketing and there's commerce. So you have all the data that is within an organization in terms of like the way that they're interacting with customers and prospects. And so for you, it totally makes sense to have create agents within a company based off of AI that, let's say I'm interacting with customer service. They can actually go into the records and go into the policies and then decide what to offer me or whatnot or help resolve my issue. But when I first heard that Salesforce was building agents, I said, well, that's kind of a slim down version of what I thought agents were going to be, which is I always thought that agents were going to be something that comes from me, the individual,

as opposed to something that effectively interacts on a company's behalf to better handle my needs. And so I'm curious, do you agree that your vision of agents is maybe smaller than the broader vision of agents? And if so, why did you decide to go that route outside of maybe it was just convenient to do it as the company you are? Well, Salesforce, you know, helps companies connect with their customers in new ways. That's our fundamental mission. And we do that, first of all, through automating every customer touchpoint. So that could be managing sales, like you mentioned,

or customer service and call centers, or marketing and emails. It could be their commerce on their website. It could be their analytics. It could be Slack, a tableau. These are all connection points between companies and their customers. And we're managing and sharing that information

using a sharing model and a security model to help our customers do that, whether they're in, like, we talked about health care, financial services, or technology or consumer product goods, et cetera. So that first layer is, are we automating all those touchpoints? Because for years, we've been automating their sales forces and service forces and marketing forces and, you know, their commerce forces. And now you're right, we're about to automate their agent forces. So first step is automate all the customer touchpoints. So a great example is Disney. I love talking about Disney, that Disney, you know, we run the Disney store. See if you go to

store.Disney.com, you know, that's Salesforce. And if you go to the call center at Disney Plus, that's Salesforce, the folks that are managing the sales for the real estate and the cruise ships and all the different customer interactions are all Salesforce, including the Disney guides and the parks are all Salesforce. They're all using tools from Salesforce to manage the customer information. And the second part of that story is not only automating all those customer touchpoints, we're building the data cloud, we're helping put all that data together.

in an amalgamated way, including the federation, or it means the connectivity, with other data sources in the company. And why that's important is as we get into this next level of AI, it needs the data to be intelligent. It can't just run off of a large language model, which is an intelligence model. It has to be what we call grounded or connected into the customer data itself. And not just the customer data, but the metadata. The customer data is like your phone number. The metadata is that it's a phone number. So, metadata as we know it's a phone number. Here it is. This is the customer. Now the LLM or the large language model, the AI, can put it all together and be smarter. Now that you have all the data and

the AI, the top layer is the agentic layer or the agent layer. So you have the agents that are able to reach out, and you also have the database, and you have all the automated touch points. All of this for Salesforce is one piece of code. It's our core platform. It's operated on by what we call our Trailblazers, who are Salesforce administrators. There's millions of them all over the world. Now, let's say we're back to Disney and we're in the parks and we're having this great experience and we're using a Disney guide and we're cutting the lines and we're having a great time with our kids and we're doing our best and we're really enjoying the day and we're on our way to Galaxy Edge, which is Star Wars Land and the rise of the resistance ride that we

love. It's super high tech, but the ride breaks. and all of a sudden the agent contacts our guide and says, hey, we know you're on the way to rise of the resistance with Mark, but that ride is broken and a couple things you need to know. I just looked at flow control across the entire park. I also just looked at Mark's ride history, and I put these two things together, and the ride that Mark needs to go on next is Tune Town.

We just opened it up. It's the same technology as Rise of Resistance. Mark is going to love it. take a right turn, walk five minutes, you're going to be there, there's no line, you're going to go right inside. And that idea that the agent could do something, that that guide could not do, that is look across flow control and my ride history and instantaneously make a recommendation, and then the guide says, hey, Mark, let's go to Tune Town now, and we have that great experience. That's everything we're talking about. That is agents and humans working together to drive

customer success. And this is the big fundamental thought of how are we going to interoperate with these agents in this physical world. And I think it's another really great example. Do you anticipate that consumers are going to have their own bots and they're going to interact with AI bots and it's just going to be AI dialogue time forever? I think that you already can start to see that now on your phone where I have like about a dozen of these AIs on my phone from all these companies. They're kind of commodities at this point. You know, Google has Gemini. There's chatGBT. There's U.com. There's perplexity. There's co-pilot. There's all these things. You know, they're just on your phone.

You're just talking to basically the same dataset through a very similar algorithm. And it's a commodity product. At some point, you're going to be able to set up preferences and do things with those tools, which you can't do today, where you're going to be able to like ask them to run projects for you. Hey, I'm going away for Christmas. I need a hotel. I'm looking at different options. Maybe I could go take my kids on some kind of incredible tour. Give me 20 ideas. And you come back the next day and it says, here, I researched this. I looked at it. I laid this out. Here's the ideas for your Christmas vacation. That's one idea. But now, let's say I'm one of those vendors. I'm Disney. I'm Hilton. I'm Marriott. I'm Ford. I'm General Motors. You know, I'm United Airlines. I'm American Airlines.

I'm whoever it is, you're going to interoperate with us and our company as well. And you might do that through an agent. Right now, you might just be talking directly to us because that's the most trusted path. And we're in a new world where, yes, your technology that you're using on your phone is going to be smarter. And also the technology of these companies is going to be smarter. And eventually they're going to interconnect and collaborate and share and help you to achieve your goals and achieve that level of abundance that we're talking about without all of a sudden having another person in your life

who's going to make all those things happen. You're going to be able to have it all done with the technology and the agent. Yeah, I think it'll be all fun in games until, you know, my bot and some companies bought, you know, they start to fall in love with each other. They talk with each other. They don't do what we need. But we saw Minority Report. It was like 20 years ago.

Exactly. Minority Report and war games and her and, you know, a space odyssey, all these things. So, you know, we, the like Minority Report and War Games was one of the writers and folk creative people who involved is actually our futurist at Salesforce. And that idea that we've seen a lot of that play out in science fiction, we can see where that could potentially go. But we could also see where we are right now. And this is just an incredible moment that we're living a new part of the future and we can start working with technology in a whole new way. Definitely. Okay.

Disneyland question when you're on the rides, hand on the rails or hands in the air? For me, I'm 6.5 and 300 pounds, so I'm just holding on and hopefully not to get thrown out of anything. That is a good strategy. Your agents are, if I'm right, $2 per conversation. The co-pilots are like 30 a month. So explain to me how the math is going to work for companies that are spending two, I mean, they have lots of conversations with customers you were talking earlier, just about how many times you're interacting with customers. That seems like it's going to get pretty expensive pretty quickly. How is this going to work? You know, our customers who are buying from us, they've traditionally paid like a per user fee, like, you know, $1,000 a year to

use our sales cloud or a service cloud. And then, of course, when we moved into new products, like our commerce cloud, or if we call our sandboxes, where you can kind of, you know, build your products or, you know, even our data cloud, we started to do what we call consumption pricing. You pay as you go or pay as you use or pay, you know, pay how you're interacting. And so for our customers who are now using our agent platform, they're paying between, call it 50 cents per conversation to $2 per conversation depending on the volume of conversations that they're doing. And this is, I think, very attractive to them because the comparison and might be a customer interaction today that's costing them $7 or $10 or $20,

or in some case, I talked to a customer that the customer interaction was costing them $700. So this is a very different level of interactivity, and our job is to provide value, as well as the trust, safety, and security, privacy associated with our technology. And that's kind of the next generation of the pricing model as well. So it's definitely a new technology model. It's a new business model. And we couple it with our new philanthropic model. You know, 25 years ago, we put 1% of our equity profit and time into a 501C3 foundation.

That was easy because we had no equity profit or time or people or anything. Right. But today we've done 10 million hours of volunteerism. We ran 100,000 nonprofits for free on our service. We've given away about a billion dollars. And we also run a lot of these nonprofits and NGOs. And we meet these incredible folks. And one of them is an NGO called College Possible.

And College Possible, which you can kind of find on the net, is amazing, where they kind of help get the college advisor going in the high school to work with your kid to kind of say, hey, what are you interested in? And we're building a profile of your kid. And here's the profile of the college. And the counselor is there. And boom, all of a sudden you get a college recommendation. And the way College Possible works is that, well, how many college counselors do you think they are? are in California per one, basically, per 100 kids. Maybe one?

There's one per 500. Okay. So there's not too many. And it's a little bit like we're talking about in the labor thing. Like there just isn't enough college counselors. And so you're kind of like wondering, hey, is my kid going to get that counseling in high school or not? So all of a sudden, college possible, using agent force. And they're building an agent and an agentic layer on college possible.

look, they already have the data and the metadata and they're already automated all the customer touchpoints. So they were able to do this like in a day. And all of a sudden, they're able to take their human workers and extend them. So you're saying basically... That is big thought. Yeah. Yeah. That it's worth it to spend that $2 per conversation because you're getting so much more productivity. I think you're getting something that you could not get through at any of the vehicle. Yeah. I want to ask you about the future business software because there's been a meme that's come we've talked about on the show that maybe business software is just going to change and instead of being in Excel you just put all your numbers in a chatbot and you talk to your chatbot instead of

Excel and some people have suggested you know mark benioff is so out front about this because he sees that the future of business software may end up looking very different from a sales force where you have all your data somewhere but you have a proactive agent itself that's sharing you. it with you and connecting with you and connecting with your customers. So do you think that we're going to see that fundamental shift in business software? And is this part of it, is part of this a reaction of that? Well, we could, but let's talk about where we are right now and what could happen. You know, we manage our data on something called disk drives. And we have these disk drives and that's where we store our data. And then there's an operating system. And then on the operating

system, there's a database because all the data has to be kind of logically stored in the database and secure and their household has to be a sharing model so we know who can see what data and who what data cannot be seen. We have another vendor, you know, who's delivered some of this technology, Microsoft. And I just saw a story today just put on my Twitter feed where the wrong data got in the wrong hands. And the reason why is is because there was no sharing model and the data was not locked up correctly. And that's something that you don't want to have happen, especially like in a regulated industry, like we talked about health care financial services, like, for example, my banker can't see your balance and your banker can't see my balance. And that's how

financial services is set up. And that's a security and sharing model. So again, we have the disc drives, the operating systems, the databases, the security and sharing model. Then we have the apps. And then we have the agentic layer on top of all that. You put a big bow around it. And that's how it should work. Now, how it's going to look and how you're going to interoperate. And I know that you're one of our sales cloud users and you can get on Salesforce today. You go to Salesforce.com and see how it interoperates. But if you're in the U.S. right now, we're running a test. And if you go on your phone, write this very second and you go to Salesforce.com, you'll see at the bottom right hand side of the screen, a little like talking bubble. And if you touch it, we're writing a test with

Agent Force right on your phone. And Agent Force will come right up in front of. on our website. And instead of looking around our website and our products and all that, you can say, hey, what do you think about Salesforce? What do you think about agent force? How does it work in financial services? How does it compare to that Microsoft co-pilot? And what we did was we took all of our customer and our activity and all of our product marketing information, all that, put in our data cloud and then just unleashed that on agent force in front of our, you know, WordPress website. And it's, I think, a really good. example, you're not authenticated, so it doesn't know who you are. There's no, you know, basically it isn't able to kind of put it together that this is the products you already have, so this is the product that you need. Then if you go to help. Salesforce.com, you'll see that once you log in as a customer, we're now interoperating with you in a really smart and creative way as well when you're talking to these agents. So these are real examples that you can really get your hands on today to understand what is that agent future going to be like? And is it 100

percent perfect? No. Is it everything that, is it minority report? Is it her? Is it, you know, no. Is it pretty good? It's pretty good, actually. I use it every day. I think it's great. And it's a big leap forward, I think, for our customers. And I think that idea that customers can have a better relationship with your company, because you're going to have an agentic layer in your company is a real idea. So you're not really afraid of, let's say, the coronas that are saying, instead of using business software, we're just going to use. I read that. There are big customers. actually. And they use Slack. They said they were canceling. Well, I didn't get their cancellation notice. Well, all I saw was a lot of provocative statements. At the same time, they were also writing on LinkedIn about how they're loving Slack and

rebuilding it. You know, we have many tools at Salesforce. But look, I'm a big company. So you can just tell me, I have 75,000 employees. Let's take that as an example. Those employees, I have an employment record on. I hire them. I pay them a salary.

They have stock options. They've got benefits. They have 401K plans. I have different information about them based on how they're doing. They're doing well. They're not doing well. Their performance record. Where do you want me to store all that information?

That's all I want to know. Just tell me where you want me to store it. If you have some magical new way to store, because I'm using disk drives right now. So if you have a new way to store data besides disc drives, I'd like to know about it because it's probably an incredible investment opportunity. But for me right now, I'm using, you know, I've used. You know, I've using disk drives. I have an app on there called Workday, which I use.

I have Salesforce. I have Slack. Like, this is what I use. So if there's something else, other than that, I need to know. But, you know, there's a lot of people making very provocative statements that they understand the future. And they saw movies. So therefore, this is what it's going to look like.

I'm like, great. I saw the same movie. Great movie. Just show me exactly what you're doing because I didn't get the alien technology, you know, from the UFO federal. You know, investigate. All I got was the disc drives that I have today. So tell me what you're using. Well, I messaged Sebastian earlier from Klarna. He's been on the show. No response yet. So we'll have to save that for our next conversation.

He's a great executive, actually. He's going public. It's amazing. That's right. And we had a fascinating conversation here about how he's automating with AI. He's a smart person. He's done a lot of great things. But I think that idea, you know, hey, if they have a better way to manage thousands of people, look, they're going public, right? Yes. So they're going to have to report their financials. Maybe they have a new way to store financial information also. They're going to have to build a report information on their employee, including all of their employment details. Maybe they have a new way to manage employment

information and report. And they're also going to need to know all their customer information, including financial information for regulators. So if they have a better way to do all of that, We want to know exactly what they're doing to manage their employee information, their financial information, their customer information, what the technology specifically, but if you make a provocative statement and say, listen, the future of software is not what you're using now. It's this great new thing. You have to at least tell us what the great new thing is. Otherwise, how are we going to figure it out? We're not like, you know, some psychics. And he didn't tell you on the show. I was listening. Okay. Well, speaking of provocative statements, we're going to get to what you said about. Microsoft in the second half and also some of your suggestions about social media. We'll be back right after this. Hey everyone, let me tell you about The Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with

business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than 2 million professionals read the hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes on business and tech news. Now, they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily Show where their team of writers break down the

biggest business headlines in 15 minutes or less and explain why should care about them. So search for The Hustled Daily Show and your favorite podcast app, like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Mark Beniof, the CEO and co-founder of Salesforce. Mark, you are a very, let's say, loud and prominent detractor of co-pilot by Microsoft. And I hear what you're saying. Your argument boils down to co-pilot is basically just chat GPT, but it's in Outlook and people aren't loving it. I'm going to counter by saying they put it in everything. They put it in

Outlook. They put it in Excel. They put it in PowerPoint. And there are some cases that are just better defined and work better than necessarily the co-opilot in Outlook. So two examples, talking to your data in Excel. That seems interesting. It seems like something that you'd be excited about. And then being able to generate PowerPoints, say what you will about PowerPoints to be able to prompt the PowerPoint presentation that also seems pretty useful. So are you going to say here that all of it is useless or just like the one part about the chat within, let's say, Outlook? Look, number one, you have to remember Microsoft is our competitor. And they're in the number one software company in the world. We're number two. So my job is to compare a contrast, our product to theirs. And in a recent

business insider report, as well as we saw it on computer world, and we saw it from Gardner and others, they were testing copilot and what they found, and they also heard it from Microsoft employees, that information was going into copilot, and while queries were being made, consumers were seeing information that they were not supposed to be seen. And in one case, somebody saw a CEO's e-mails. Now, I know as a CEO, I don't want anybody seen my emails. I only want to have my email seen by me. That's why I'm writing these emails. And not only was this data kind of getting spilled and like, you know, misshared and the security model was kind of, you know, getting misplaced, but customers reporting, they just weren't getting value from copilot.

And the reason why is what Microsoft basically did was they're exactly right what you said. They just repackaged Open AI's product and didn't really integrate it very well and didn't really think from the ground up what it was going to be in its best situation to offer value to the customers. And I think that the comparison is agent force and all of the stories I just told you that are the, you know, basically hundreds or thousands of companies that are deploying Agent Force now and what they're doing with it. And I hope that those are stories that I don't hear about it. It's not that, you know, there aren't, look, there's no finish line when it comes to security or reliability or availability, you know, in enterprise software. We know that.

But I think my job is to compare and contrast, and I think that when I do talk to reporters, I do ask them to tell me their best co-pilot story. And I've yet to meet a reporter or even a customer who has defined a huge and valuable proposition for co-pilot where it's offered value to their company. Maybe Microsoft will pivot like they usually do and fast follow us, you know, into this new agentic world because I think that's really where all the action is going to be. I'll tell you one co-pilot story, but it's not co-pilot. It's Claude from Anthropic, but similar idea.

Great company. I'm in dialogue. I'm an investor in the company. They're great. Which I totally understand, and I'm sure they're listening. We talk about them all the time here. I have a running conversation with one Claude, who I've now had to copy the brain and put it into a new cloud

because I ran out of characters. It's a diet coach. We talk all day long about what I'm eating, the calories, whether it adheres to my whole food's guidance. And then it gives me a great. Each day, we weigh in and we talk about it the next day. and I don't know do you want to call it a co-pilot a chat

instance it's pretty useful maybe it will share my details with you it's a great example it's a great example and I think that idea that you're able to kind of get some benefit I even I've been you know use these things a little bit as a therapist I'll have like some psychological issue

I'm kind of dealing with in my mind and I'll ask it a crazy question and I've gotten great answers you know from it or you know there's so many things you can do with large language models, but let's get clear what large language models are and what they are not. So, you know, large language models really start with these next generation algorithms that are quite good, based on deep learning and these artificial intelligence techniques, a lot of them that came out of Stanford, really in the early kind

of 2010s, 2012, 2013, had a lot of breakthroughs. Even prompt engineering was invented at Salesforce, which we're very proud of. And then what happened is we started to expand deep learning, bigger and bigger data sets, bigger and bigger compute, and all of a sudden we had generative AI. And really, that's the story. And this idea that we now have generative AI made possible by so many interesting companies, like you mentioned, for example, that incredible company, Anthropic, but also there's other ones, OpenAI, and Cohere, and You.com, and, you.com, and, you perplexity in many. They're all very similar actually right now. So if you go to the app store and you download five or six of them and put them on your phone, I put them all into a folder

and try different ones and they can draw pictures and they can answer questions. And some of them can talk to you. I think Google's Gemini is amazing. You can talk to it with almost zero latency. It's really cool. So all of that is happening. All right. And that is the kind of current phenomenon where we really start to have the kind of generative AI cool experience. Like, this is really great. Right. And the next step is, how do we actually connect it into meaningful data sets? Because, like, for you, the next step is, hey, wouldn't that be cool if that was connected

to all your medical information in real time? And to kind of continue the conversation, not only are you connected into your medical information and your labs and your scans and your diet and your family history, Okay, but now your doctor's conversations, too, and now you end up in your doctor's office, and it's all right there in front of you in a big screen. That will be incredible. And we're close to that happening. Okay, so we have about five minutes left. Switching topics a bit. I want to ask you a media question, and I want to ask you an Elon question. Media question first. Are you going to sell time? Well, I love time. It's been a lot of fun. I really enjoy it. I work on a. it every day. I've been working on it today all day. I'll connect to the Elon question. We just published our fifth cover on Elon. Elon just,

you know, tweeted and texted me, oh, I don't want any more covers, you know, but he does love the covers. He wants to be on those covers. He's a great guy. He's doing incredible things. He's brilliant. He's running like 2,000 companies and the U.S. government all at the same time. So, you know, it's like we've never seen anybody like this in my, in our careers, right? It's just like, this person can't be human. Like, how does, how is this even possible? But it is. And whatever he's doing, you know, whatever he's drinking, whatever he's eating, whatever drugs he's taking, I guess I want some of them because I've never seen anything like this. And so on the time question? Oh, I love time and time's amazing. And, you know, we own time. We bought it five years ago. And we're

doing great with time and we love it. There's been a bit of a question about the billion their own media company moment that we experience. You know, you bought time, but of course Bezos bought the Washington Post. Patrick Sun Ching bought the LA Times. I would say you're probably doing the best of the three. Do you think this was a mistaken era? No, I think that, you know, when it comes to what's going on, I can really explain it if you're interested. I think that in the media business, you know, you're like software. You know, you're like software. You know, You know, I'm working with engineers, and these engineers are all over the world. And it's very much a global experience, my salespeople, too.

I think that when it comes to know our journalists, our journalists tend to be, you know, very much represent their beliefs and their ideas and their visions and their aspirations for their own lives. And a lot of it does come out of certain geographies where they're based. And because of those geos are certain, have certain kinds of characteristics, even political characteristics or cultural characteristics. they can kind of permeate out into the journalism itself. So it can be a little bit difficult for maybe a journalist. I'll give you an example in New York and understand exactly, you know, what is going on day to day in Pick, Bangal or India. Okay.

It's two different worlds. It's two different economies. It's two different even languages. It's two different, you know, philosophies of life. Everything is completely different. And then add into, let's say, a place I just was in Jakarta. Indonesia. So you start to look at, well, these are just different mindsets. And I think when journalists are writing, they're writing from their minds. And I'm actually finishing up an

article that I'm going to publish next week in time about all the things that we're talking about right now of labor. And, you know, I'm writing from my perspective as a CEO of a software company. So journalists are writing from their perspectives. And you have to just understand that. It's not always going to match exactly your perspective because it may not be where you live, how you grew up, your religion, your philosophy of life, or your mindset. And so that tends to be, I think, a little bit of the conflict. And that's what I see playing out. And I think that we are fortunate in time that our journalists and our, especially our editor-in-chief and our CEO and others understand this. And they try to upscale how they're

thinking about things and say, hey, let's make sure that we don't go too far left or too far right, that we go down the middle. By the way, it's not the history of time. magazine at all. If you go back to the History of Time magazine, which is a hundred years, it goes a little bit this way and a little bit that way. And you can look at it if you just look at the covers or read, you know, the magazine, you'll see that there was even a political intention. There was even a time when the owner, really, the founder, you know, had a very specific political ideology that it was expressing through that. I don't think that that's appropriate based on the current world. You know, we're trying to create a neutral, you know,

agnostic, you know, provide a balanced view on both sides. Do we always do that? No, because these are human beings writing these stories and they're going to write it from their perspective. And that's all that's going on. I don't think anybody should be demonized or criticized for this perspective. I think that we should just have a realistic view. You have a lot of experience in the media industry and, you know, how do you see it? Do you think that that's a fair way to look at what's going on or do you think that there's some other reality? It's going to be the I think, look, it's going to be the essential question of journalism forever. It's like how much of your own viewpoint do you insert into what you're doing?

Because ultimately, your job is to unearth facts. And I think everyone is still trying to figure out because, you know, there was this view, this sort of front, top, down view that it should be a certain way. And people are still trying to figure out exactly how to do it. Okay, we have like a minute left. I'm just going to ask you quickly. Then we can end. I don't want to take too much of your time.

Around the Twitter sale, you texted. Elon, happy to talk about if it's interesting. Twitter as a conversational OS, the town square for your digital life. What do you mean by that? Well, you can see what Elon has done. It's been amazing with Twitter, and he's really transformed it and done something that I could have never envisioned, and it wasn't what, when we were talking about Twitter, that's not what we were going to do. We were really going to build something that was more of an application development and deployment capability, where you really had this kind of same Twitter feeds, but you'd kind have hypercards in those frames, not just photos. And if you remember hypercards, which came out of

the original work in the Macintosh, I worked at Apple in 1984, so I was a loved hypercard, you know, that that idea that you could have apps in an app store and applications and not only have a creator economy and people building incredible, you know, new, you know, videos and dialogues and conversations, but also apps. And that's what I always wanted apps to be part of the Twitterverse, if you would. And that was a vision that I had, which was a little different. And I talked that you learned about that, but that's not, he's not interested in that. He's really very much on this, hey, I'm going to open it up to everybody. I'm going to turn everyone on who's turned off before. I'm going to let be absolutely information free for all and no guardrails. And let's

just let everyone kind of, you know, work it out. And it's kind of the hunger games is what's going on. And I think that that's fine. And everybody knows what it is. is and he's doing his thing. And, you know, there's Section 230 preventing, you know, any kind of, you know, liability for him. So he can just let that roll. And that's not kind of how I looked at it. I had a whole different vision that will never be realized. Because I did not end up going in that direction, mostly because my investors, because I run a public company did not let me go into this crazy world that he's, he is doing a very good job, actually. And so I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not in that world. Well, Mark, believe it or not, I first asked Salesforce to let me speak with you 12 years ago when I was a reporter for Adage. We put Larry Ellison on the cover. We wanted to put you on. And I have to say it was worth the wait.

It's really great to get a chance to speak with you. And thank you so much for coming on the show. Well, I hope it won't be another 12 years. I'm happy to come on your show anytime, at least call or email me anytime or text me. I'm going to take you up on that. Look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you. All right, everybody.

Thank you, Mark. And thanks for all for listening. Thanks to you all for listening. We'll be back on Friday with another show breaking down the news. Until then, we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.