Big Technology Podcast - Three Mayors On The Future Of Tech in the U.S.

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami, Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway of Madison, and Mayor Steve Adler of Austin join Big Technology Podcast to discuss the future of tech in the U.S. They’re showing up on a tech podcast because they see an opportunity to take some of the growth once headed to the Bay Area, and bring it home. They may have a chance. Out of the four mayors I asked to be on the show, only San Francisco Mayor London Breed declined. That says something. What’s clear from speaking with the mayors is that remote work is not going away anytime soon, and that presents opportunities for people and cities that simply were not there before. This will have an impact on the country’s economy, and the tech industry as well, for reasons we discuss.

Hello and welcome to the big technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. I'm Alex Cantroitz, and this is a special episode. Three U.S. mayors join us today to talk about the future of technology in the United States. They are Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami. Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway of Madison, and Mayor Steve Adler of Austin. Now, look, they're showing up on a tech podcast because they see an opportunity to take some of the growth once headed to the Bay Area and bring it home. Though us residents of San Francisco and its environs know that such growth can come with its own challenges. Now listen to this.

Out of the four mayors I asked to be on the show, only one said no, San Francisco Mayor London Breed. And that, to me, says something. What's clear from speaking with the mayors you're about to hear from, though, is that remote work is not going away anytime soon, and that presents opportunity for people and cities that simply was not there before. This is going to have an impact on our country's economy and the tech industry as well, for reasons we're about to discuss. Okay, let's start with Miami Mayor Francis Suarez, who runs the busiest city on the future of tech circuit. Now, I got a hold of some LinkedIn data from last year that showed that while Miami is adding tech workers, it's only adding them a bit faster than before the pandemic. And I'll reference this data throughout.

So I'll start with Mayor Suarez trying to get to the truth of what's actually happening in Miami. And I think that when you listen, you'll hear that there's substance behind the man with the extremely active Twitter account. We've gotten to really nice debate. Okay, without further ado, here is my conversation with Miami Mayor Francis Suarez. Mayor Suarez, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you. It's great to have you here. we've been talking a little bit on Twitter,

but it's nice to be able to have a more long-form discussion outside of 280 characters. Absolutely. Yeah, although I know you are adept at those 280 character conversations. So let's start here. So last year, I published some data from LinkedIn, and that showed that for every tech worker leaving Miami, 1.14 was coming in, which is an increase, no doubt.

But it seems like a slight increase. And that's LinkedIn's data, and people gave me some trouble. oh, why are you publishing LinkedIn data? Go to the source. And now I'm with the source. You're the mayor of Miami. What does your data say about the amount of tech workers that are moving into Miami if you have any?

You know, there isn't any real good data that I've seen. It's all anecdotal. I think, you know, clearly it's, there's a brain gain versus a brain drain that we've been, we have been seen. We've been an intellectual talent exporter. No doubt. For decades. So the fact that we're already on the positive side is a huge.

improvement over decades of being on the negative side for a long time. So that's a good statistic. I think that that number has only been accelerated in the last 60 to 90 days, just based on all the anecdotal. I mean, the people that I'm meeting with, the people that I'm speaking to and seeing, I mean, it's incredible what's happening here. There isn't anybody that of weight and significance in tech that I haven't spoken to or seen in the last two months. Yeah, I was going to fast forward. I was going to end the interview with this, but now that you've mentioned that you've spoken with everyone, what's going on with you and Elon Musk? I know that you guys have a relationship and apparently are speaking in, you know,

the coming days. So, so what do you, what do you, how's your relationship with him and what are you talking about? We should be speaking tomorrow. And, you know, our relationship started on Twitter, as many of my relationships have started, tweeting at 4 o'clock in the morning about things of mutual interest. And he's a visionary. He's someone who is, you know, sort of an engineer at heart, a problem solver. And for him, the big issue is how do you solve major problems in the world? And the one that we're focusing on is urban transportation. It's been a passion of mine for my entire public service career. I was a vice- So he's going to come dig tunnels? Absolutely. Well, he's going to, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about. And I'm actually considering going to Las Vegas as well to

see the tunnels that he's digging over there. So that's a trip that we're planning for mid-February. So I think, you know, to me, what's amazing about his company is that it does it in a 100x cheaper fashion than what's being done in other parts of the country. And I think that's something that you cannot ignore and certainly having the attention of the world's richest person who is the most probably ingenious person, even more important than his wealth. It's just not something you can ignore. Yeah. So you mentioned that, you know, it was, you've, you've had anecdotal data. And I wanted to get at that because some folks have said like, you know, Keith Roboy and Emil Michael are in Miami. And then they see your Twitter account. And they say that's the extent of the Miami tech scene. So tell me this. Okay, the hiring that you're seeing inside Miami. Is it from big tech companies? Is it from startups? Or is it just, you know, what a lot of people assume, which is that a few people have decamped to the city in the middle of the pandemic. They're enjoying the nice weather. You and I have joked about that in the past.

And then eventually they'll move back to New York or San Francisco. So where is the hiring coming from? And how are you sure that this stuff is permanent? So if we're sort of multiple choice exam, it would be C, which is A&B, right? Okay. And so we're seeing big companies and startups. We're seeing big companies like Blackstone, like Starwood, J.P. Morgan, Goldman. And we're seeing big founders like Peter Thiel and Keith Roveyce and Lucy Gou and others that are coming here, John Orringer from Shutterstock.

And then we're seeing them startup companies and either recruiting talent or hiring talent from here. So the ecosystem is experiencing what I would consider a J-Curb moment. It's like a startup that has been taking 10 years to build and it got its first big infusion of VC capital. Right. So we're starting to see a major scale. You know, to what extent that scale is, to what extent how profound it is, I can tell you, there's a few things I can tell you. One is for every one or two, Keith Robois and John Orringers that we talk about, there's a good 10 to 20 that don't want to be talked about that are here. And I think that's something that, you know, when I talk to people, they're constantly relaying that. Second thing I would tell you is if we talk to people like Keith, when you look at the density issue, right, he would tell you, and others would tell you the same thing because I've had these Cafesito Tech Talks where I've been constantly having what seems like a, you know, groundhog day conversation. They would tell you we've met more interesting, more profound and more, you know, important people in three weeks a week a month in Miami that we had in the three years prior in Silicon Valley. So there is a density of that really top-tier talent here. You know, the second question about, you know, how long will it last?

Or is this a fleeting thing? Is this a moment or a movement, right? And I think that question is yet to be answered fully. I think there are of 10, maybe five that are the Keith Robles to say, hey, I'm buying a $30 million house. I'm buying property. I'm buying a $30 million house. And, you know, I'm making a big bet on Miami. I believe that we can build a system like they did in New York or they did in Los Angeles.

And then I think five of them are like dipping their toe in the water to some extent, right? Three month lease, six month lease, nine month lease, a month lease. And what Keith often says, which I'm repeating because we did a talk the other day, was I just want him here for a month. If I get them here for a month, I know I have them for good. Yeah. And, you know, it's one of the weird things about this whole situation. And first of all, like, I know that some people are saying they've probably met more interesting people in a couple weeks. But I think there is definitely a bias from the people who are moving.

to Miami to hate on Silicon Valley and like use that as positioning. So I kind of question that. But let's put that aside for a moment. One of the interesting things about this movement is like it's come in a moment where location doesn't matter. Right. And so people are like, I don't need to be in San Francisco anymore. I don't need to be in the Bay Area. But yet the other side of this is that location does matter a lot. And that location that people are talking about is Miami. So I guess like I'd love to hear from your perspective you must have been thinking about this why in a time when location doesn't matter does your location matter so much because it's the best location um and i think that's that's that's the easy answer you know i i tell people um this is not a virtual background um that that is the that is my

office and and for those who are listening to i can't see it i mean it's a it's a pretty sweet perfect it's a pretty sweet picture of palm trees and a bay and and you know and a blue sky um so We believe, and we've always believed that if all things were equal, Miami wins. So that's part of it. I think the other part of it is, you know, I hear what you're saying about people sort of hating on the Bay Area, I get it. But I think there are some fundamental reasons why that's happening. And I think to ignore those reasons is going to continue to perpetuate this exodus. And I think they fall into two main categories.

The first is taxation. You know, I had somebody tell me the other day that some of these high-tax cities and states, they're literally working the first six months for the government. And they don't really start making money until six months in the first day. I mean, they're paying more than half of all the money they earn in income taxes. So that money doesn't even ever go in their pocket. It's just going straight out the door. And so that's one way to look at it.

The other thing that people say is, you know, I've heard big founders say things like, If I would have just gotten a call from the mayor or the governor saying, hey, look, we know things are tough right now. We know we're closed. We know crime is up. We know homelessness is up. We know our taxes are going up. But we really need you. We want you to stay.

We appreciate you. We think you're doing a great job building companies, building wealth. We think you're part of the solution. If they would have taken that approach, I think a lot of people would have stayed because they would have felt a sense of civic responsibility. And they would have said, you know what? maybe maybe they're right. Maybe things will get better. And I just don't think that happened.

On the contrary, I think what happened was the opposite. I think you have people saying, F, you know, Elon Musk. I think you have people saying, you know what I mean, you know, you had people, you know, Mark Zuckerberg who gave $75 million to name a hospital. You know, he's being, you know, criticized for that. Yeah. But, okay, we could go on on this. I just want to get to the root of it, though, which is that I think that, first of all,

I think you're right. I don't think it's any place for politicians to say, you know, F, like one of the most important entrepreneurs in the state, or I think the whole idea of taking Zuckerberg's name off the hospital was ridiculous. The tension that's happening in San Francisco is that politician have seen the tech industry come in and, you know, gentrify, you know, push real estate costs up and not really give back much to the community. And when they, you know, sort of, it's kind of funny when they do, now they get criticized. And that's where an anti-tech sentiment has, has come up in San Francisco. Now, look, I mean, I'm, I cover the industry. I found it. Can I jump in on that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. I fundamentally disagree with that. Well, let's, yeah, I'll tell you what you think, yeah. And I'll tell you why. Gentrification is not a San Francisco issue. It's not a Los Angeles issue. It's not a New York issue. It's an American issue, right? Gentification was happening in Miami way before tech got here. We grew my first year of mayor, eight and a half percent, my second year, 10 and a half percent. And the year after that, in COVID, six and a half percent. Prior to the how can I help tweet? So gentrification is real, right? It's real. It's a real force in America because there's a there is a renaissance to urbanism. To blame that on an industry, to blame that on a company is insane. And it's ludicrous and counterproductive, frankly. And I think that's

where the big mistake lies. When government oftentimes creates the kinds of policies that exacerbate gentrification, for example, you have cities that limit their ability to build, right? They limit their ability, they limit their housing stock. What do you think is going to happen? When you have no place to build, you have an infinite amount of capital chasing a finite good. Prices are going to go up. There is no, I mean, that's economics 101. It's not the fault of a company. It's not the fault of a person. It's not the fault of an industry. It's the fault of government, frankly. And I think what's happening is a lot of societal problems that are not being fixed by government and are not being made better by government are being blamed on private industry as a scapego.

And that's why people are fleeing those governments and those cities in droves and are coming to cities like Miami. We reduced tax. We reduced taxes to the second lowest rate since the 1960s. We reduced crime last year by 25%. The year before that, we had the lowest homicide rates since 1954. Okay, while people defund their police, we increased funding to our police. We've had more police officers than we've ever had in our history. We have probably one of the lowest homeless rates for a major city in America, 962 homeless in my city.

I know exactly the number I have and I have a census of it on a regular basis. so I think I think it's a big mistake and frankly until cities start and states start figuring out that what they're doing is hurting their citizens instead of blaming their citizens this is this this this is going to continue and it's just going to benefit Miami listen yeah well they want to keep doing it yeah they want to keep doing it keep doing it right well listen mr. mayor I think this is why people like you because you know I think that I was talking about I was giving the context this is why people are upset in San Francisco, and I think it's all too rare where we hear politicians talking about the fact that this is a problem, and it's not just solved by some people not moving in, but by actual government policy that can solve. And hopefully this sets an example for people across the country to go in and jump on it. So I agree with you. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, I was to say I agree with you. I think the solutions, I think it's a shared responsibility. Right. I think we're roughly the same age. I think, I think the challenge of our generation is income inequality, right? And I don't

think that's, again, that's not a San Francisco problem. That's not a Los Angeles problem or New York problem or Miami problem. That's an everywhere problem. And the question is, how do you solve it? Right. And if the answer, if we had the answer to solve it, guess what? Everybody would do it, right? And we would just scale it. It would be simple, right? Just like any other solution. Yeah, you don't think bringing in tech folks and, you know, having low taxes is, is going to, you know, further the income inequality divide. No, that's backwards. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so we have the problem, right? Let's think of this as an engineer, right? Let's think of this as a problem solution thing. So you have a problem. The problem is income inequality. The problem is poverty, right? What is the first thing you have to do to cure poverty? Tell all the people that create high-paying jobs, you've got to go?

No. You have to tell those people, you've got to come because I need my, for my, for there to be upward mobility and my citizens, the first thing I have to do is create high-paying jobs. That is the first fundamental thing that I have to do. The second thing I got to do is I have to train the people in my city to occupy those jobs and make sure that they have the best educational framework, that they have broadband access, that they have the digital tools that everyone has, that they have educational curriculum and coding and robotics and whatever they're going to need

to be competitive in that world. But to say, oh, the cure of income inequality is to tell everyone that creates high-paying jobs that they have to leave, I don't even know what to say. that like I just don't understand how you do it's if you bring them in you tax them appropriately I mean that's the other side of it I'm not taking a position here I'm saying oh okay so so so so the other side is we grow government which has been you know demonstrated over the history of humanity to be incredibly inefficient at doing just about everything you know and I think the reason why it's so clear to me and I'm sorry to

getting I'm getting worked up because no this is awesome debate yeah the reason why the reason why I get worked up is because my parents came from a country uh where they took private property from everybody, where they took away the right of, you know, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, where they summarily executed political prisoners and they arrest people who speak ill of government. And so it became very evident to me that growing government, that tax policy, if you will, you don't tax your way out of problems. You innovate your way out of problems. You know, you create public-private partnerships. Affordable housing a great example. We just did $10 million of affordable housing. Well, we got a 20-to-one leverage rate

with the private sector. We put in a dollar, and we got $19 from the public, from the private sector. So we created 722 units of affordable housing in our community with $10 million. You can't do that if government, if you go and you make it a government project, first of all, it's going to look terrible. Second of all, you're never going to maintain it the way that it should be maintained. And third of all, you're not going to get the leverage rate. So you're going to spend $10 dollars and you're going to get 70 units as opposed to spending 10 million dollars and getting 700 units. It's like simple mathematics. Yeah. No, I look, I see your point. This is a long debate that we could have, but I know your team's going to cut me off at 15 minutes. So I do hope that

we could do it again. One thing I'll say is I used to work in economic development in New York City and I saw firsthand how important it was for the leaders in the city to talk about how important the tech industry was because ultimately that's where a lot of the growth is going to come from. And I know people give you shit about, you know, how much you're on Twitter. And, man, I'd love to see your usage statistics. But I know it's going to make a meaningful impact. I'll tell you what they are. I'll tell you what they are.

We did, in December, I tweeted over 800 times. I got 27 million impressions, all organic. You know, and how can I help tweet? Got like 2.4 million. The other one where they said vote with your feet got like 1.7. When I put up the Satoshi white paper, I got three. million impressions. So I think I have a clear runway to talk about these things. And frankly, I welcome the debate. I think it's a healthy, important debate because like I said,

it is the challenge of our generation. But I do think that a lot of the cities are taking the wrong approach. And I think that wrong approach is not only not helping their citizens. I think it's actually hurting their citizens. Yeah. Well, I think, look, the most important thing is to have a debate. And now that we have cities like Miami and cities like Austin and, and of course, New York and Boston, which I've been there that are challenging the Bay Area, challenging California for tech supremacy, we're going to start talking about these issues. And then cities will make a decision in terms of the way that they want to handle this stuff. So it's good to see it out there. It's nice to be here talking with you about it. And I wish you the best of luck.

And I'm excited to talk to you about it. I'm really thankful actually that you talk about it in this way because, you know, frankly, I do a lot of interviews. And it's good when somebody has a robust debate and says, hey, you know what, let's look at the other side. Let's challenge each other to think about this more profoundly. I actually really appreciate it because, frankly, oftentimes, the interviews are all sort of hunky-dory and everything is wonderful. No, things are not all wonderful. You know, we have work to do.

There's a lot of challenges. And the decisions that we make today are going to define how we are tomorrow. So I'm just really grateful, actually, that you gave me the opportunity to have this robust debate with you, and I'd be happy to do it again in the future. Well, I'm grateful, too, and appreciate you responding to my DM. It starts with that and it's not Elon Musk, but this is how good conversations begin, and I am grateful to. So hopefully we do it again. Everybody's Elon Musk to me.

That's why you're a good politician. All right, Mr. Mayor, wishing you the best of luck. All right, take care. Tito. Tito. Okay, that was fun. I did not expect him to start quoting the Twitter stats, but I am glad he did. And there it is, the full-throated pitch for Miami.

I really enjoyed the debate. Thank you, Mayor Suarez. Next, we move to Madison, Wisconsin, where Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway will speak with us about why her city is booming and how the move to remote work may help mid-sized cities especially, not the big names you hear in the news. We'll also get to why cities want tech in the first place. I found this interview fascinating and fun. Mayor Rhodes-Conway even entertained some of your questions from Twitter, so thank you

for those. Before our conversation, a word from our sponsor, MediaOcean. The Big Technology podcast is sponsored by MediaOcean. Looking for a job in big tech, you might want to take a look at MediaOcean. They were just named by Adage as the number one place to work in advertising technology. Go to MediaOcean.com slash big tech to learn more about the company and check out their careers hub. MediaOcean is building the mission critical platform for omnichannel advertising. If that sounds cool or if you just want to find out what these buzzwords mean, hit up Mediaocean.com slash big tech and browse their job listings.

And big thanks to MediaOcean for supporting the Big Technology podcast. And now my conversation with Mayor Rhodes-Conway. Mayor Rhodes-Conway, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. It's great to have you. There's a reason we want to talk about Madison, because I did a story based off of LinkedIn data, which we talked about at the top,

and it looked at the changes in tech worker migration city-by-city. And people expected that it might be Miami. We spoke to Mayor Francis Juarez just before, or people thought it might be Austin. It turns out the city with the big, biggest increase in tech worker migration is Madison. Last year, there were 1.02 tech workers moving into Madison for everyone moving out. This year, it is 1.77. That's the biggest jump, a 74% increase in inflow, outflow ratio. Congratulations. You leave everybody else behind in the dust.

So my question for you is, now that we're talking about it, how surprised are you that you're hearing this and seeing it? Or is this something that you've known all along? Well, you know, what can I say? Madison's a great place to live. No, I think it's very interesting. We have certainly seen the pattern here in Madison. Just for example, our average age of the population is going down. And I think that is in large part due to the folks that we see moving here for work and particularly for tech related work. So we see it there. We see it in our housing market, frankly. And we definitely feel the impact here in Madison. And mostly that's positive. Not 100%, but I think it is, it's really interesting. And I actually think that going in, you know, sort of

post-pandemic as we come out of COVID and more and more people are realizing they could live wherever they wanted and work remotely, that we are going to see even more of that migration here to Madison. Yeah. So let's talk quickly about the fundamentals inside Madison, and then we can go a little bit more into the pandemic. So I was perusing core, which is a popular question-answer site in the tech world. And this was, you know, I was surprised to see, and maybe I should have been paying more attention, but surprised to see that even as far as back as, you know, almost a decade ago, in 2013, people were talking about Madison's tech industry as up and coming. Here's what somebody said in 2013. Madison in specific and Wisconsin in general

actually has a pretty decent rep for startup culture, especially in the past few years, between the UW turning out a healthy handful of intelligent, educated people, a number of high tech companies in the area bringing smart people into town, and a strong community slash network of support Emporting enthusiastic entrepreneurs. Madison's become a small hop head in the tech and startup scenes. So you've been in Madison, you've worked with the university, you've worked on the city council, you've been there for a couple of decades. How did this happen?

Was it intentional or did it just sort of happen incidentally? You know, I think it's a mix. Certainly we see a lot of strength coming out of UW. Just for example, we have a great program on game design, which has been. meant that we have a really strong sector in game design here in Madison. And most people have no idea that that's true, right? I happen to know because my brother is a game designer. And so, you know, and so, you know, he's sort of kept me looped in that, yeah, Madison's a pretty hip place to be from that perspective. But I think it's been a little bit under the radar.

And I will say that in the industry, you know, all of what you just read is true, right? There is these strengths. There are some anchors. Obviously, Epic has been an anchor in the med tech space and all of the spinoff that comes from that. They do electronic medical records. Yep, exactly. But I would also point out that, you know, American family has really invested in innovation here. and I think is doing a lot of interesting sort of ecosystem building work.

I think that we've got Google, we've got Zendesx, we've got Fetch here, we've got Ionic, we've got Perblue, you know, exact also in the medical technology space. So there's a lot going on here in Madison. And one of the things that strikes me looking into the industry from the outside is that there is a lot of camaraderie and collaboration and that there is a lot of desire to build that ecosystem and have that community, which I think then spurs, you know, additional startups, additional people wanting to be part of that and to move here to be part of it. Yeah, and I want to build on that. So I'm going to ask about how the pandemic has changed everything. It does seem that there's some interesting things happen where, you know, people can now work from anywhere, but they still want to have some semblance of a tech community in the cities they move to. So it's not like somebody, you know, well, there are going to be people that do this, but like, you know, get an airstream and move into the middle of the desert and code all day.

That will happen. Yeah. But it does seem like communities like Madison are really well positioned to have, you know, folks who don't need to be in San Francisco of, you know, San Francisco. or New York to come, they have, what I imagine, cost of living is better. You know, community might be, I don't know, even a little friendlier. It seems like that's the case. Could be. And then the opportunity to get together with like-minded people in the physical,

and, you know, in the physical world when that becomes accessible. So do you think that's how the pandemic and this sort of realization that we can now do remote work ends up benefiting Madison? I think so. I think that we will see, you know, that movement. We have a really high quality of life. I mean, the caveat always here is that we're an extremely good place for white people to live. And we're not an extremely good place for particularly African Americans to live. So, you know, we are really wrestling with that gap in opportunity. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, and, you know,

And that's something that we as a city, we as a community take very seriously and are wrestling with. But we do have, you know, all of the markers of really high quality of life. We've got beautiful lakes. We've got an incredible park system. And, you know, we've got a, you know, great small business community and lots of microbrew and, you know, local distilleries. And, you know, anyway, local chocolate, take your pick, whatever you want. Yeah. So there is a lot of a really good quality of life here.

And I think that does attract people. I think, you know, some of the downside is, you know, while we are still a more affordable place to live than many larger coastal cities, and our housing market is incredibly tight. And we as a city have really pushed to increase our supply of housing to sort of meet the influx of people that we see. Yeah. And also, I mean, I watched your campaign. videos when you campaigned for mayor in 2019. You campaigned on helping to close the gap and

opportunity among races. You campaigned to install more affordable housing. So though, no doubt there are those challenges, the city did elect you to, you know, help try to fix them. So I think that says something about Madison. Now, on the tech question specifically, do you, you know, do you get both, you know, excited and kind of hesitant? with the fact that there's going to be or there is an influx in your city because on one hand it's probably good for the local economy on the other hand i think you're kind of hitting at the fact that you know how the housing market is tight uh i live in san francisco here's what happens here the you know the tech companies you pay there look they're there i have nothing against them

they're they're an engine of economic growth probably unlike the country's ever seen they pay high salaries and then but but the downside is people do get priced out of neighborhoods so so do you have conflicted feelings in terms of the tech boom going on in your city and how do you plan to manage that i you know i i see it as a challenge right it's it is um it's a it's a it's a economic driver for us and and you know we want people to to to understand how great madison is and to want to live here and want to do business here. But it is a challenge for us, right? The challenge is to make sure that we are not designing our city just for people who have moved here in the last year or five years or whatever, but rather designing our city to benefit everybody, including the

folks who have been here for their whole lives, right? It's also a challenge to make sure that our housing market contains the appropriate levels of affordability for everybody, you know, regardless of where they might be working. And, and it's a challenge to make sure that we are investing in all of our neighborhoods. And, but I think that's a challenge that we're up for. And, you know, again, you pointed out, it's what I ran for when I was running from there. It's what I ran on. And it is, you know, a high priority for us as a city to make sure that we stay focused on certainly welcoming more people in, but also making sure that we're taking care of everybody. Yeah. And so I also want to know, like, in terms of the overall mix of your

economy, now I'm just going to, you know, take some guesses and you can, you know, bring me back to reality because you know this better than I do. I imagine the main industry in Wisconsin is the University of Wisconsin-Madison. So how important can tech be in the mix or is tech in the mix and how much do you how much do you want it to be like is it like now like a small percentage but it's fun to talk about or is it a driver of Madison's economy and yeah I think you actually be surprised at how diverse our economy is so certainly you know obviously we've got state government we've got county government we've got city government right so we're heavy in the government sector we do have the flagship UW campus here obviously and but we also have a real

strength in health care. And so we have, you know, very strong health systems, and that's a big piece in our economy. Similarly, we have a lot of med tech companies, and it's a growing piece of our economy here. And, you know, obviously food and food systems is a part of everybody's economy, but I think it's particularly special in the Midwest and in Madison, given our proximity to some really excellent agricultural land. And so the local food movement is strong, and our farm-to-table movement is really important here. And that is, you know, a significant piece of our economy as well. And so we're a little more diverse than I think people might think when they just think of us as a university town. And, you know, we, we do have the eighth largest concentration of digital

services jobs in the U.S. And so, you know, I think when you ask is tech already an important part of our economy? Yes, it is. And I think it's growing. people out here and by out here i mean silicon valley have said software is going to eat the world but it sounds like what you're saying is that software and technology are going to be an important part of your mix um there are other industries out there but you're still going to do whatever you can to welcome the software companies recruit the software companies as long as they don't exacerbate your challenges is that is that the right read i think I think that, I mean, I don't know how things happen in Silicon Valley, but I think there's a little bit of a skee.

I'm still trying to learn. So. View of the world there. But, you know, what's important for cities is to have diverse economies, right? You can't depend on one industry alone, right? So it's, it's important for Madison to have a diversity and, you know, and to be strong in multiple sectors. and that's what I'm interested in, right? And I'm interested in that.

I'm interested in doing what we can to grow and diversify the sectors that we've got and to localize their supply chains so that we're keeping more of our economic activity here in Madison. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity to do that. But for me, the key really is the diversity. And so, you know, with tech in particular being a growing sector for us, that's great because it helps us diversify. But I never want to be in a position where that's the only thing we've got going. Right. And how does tech help? Like, does it just mean there's more opportunities

for people in Madison to get jobs or like, does, do you view the money trickling down? Like, what is, when you think about the benefit outside of having another industry that people can go to, what are some concrete benefits of having tech in your city? Like, why would you want it? That's the question I wrote down earlier. Do you even want tech? Certainly, you know, it's useful in the sense of you're bringing people into town and they're spending money, right? Like, that's great. Yeah. That's part of what makes the economy go.

But one of the things that I think is really interesting is the overlap, right? So we, Madison's been strong in health care for decades, right? And now we're increasingly strong in medical technology. which probably wouldn't have happened if we weren't strong in health care to begin with, right? But is an opportunity for a strength in technology related to one of our existing, you know, economic powerhouses. So that's interesting to me. So what are the overlaps, right? What are the places where new things emerge because of those overlaps?

And, you know, again, just coming back to some of the work that American family has done, they have an innovation center in, they call it the Spark Building, right in downtown Madison. And so, you know, where are the places that we can really draw on that expertise and get really innovative and solve new problems and, you know, have people who think in different ways, rubbing shoulders with each other and coming up with new solutions and new business models that are going to benefit our community? fascinating. So there can be a spillover effect to other industries that do rely on tech. So in some ways, it is eating the world, but in some ways it's not. And then the pandemic has helped bring the idea that there could be more people inside Madison. That's interesting. So the, I guess like I was going to, I had a broad question for the end. I'm just going to ask it now. I'm curious what you think the future of tech is in U.S. cities. Is it concentrated? Is it more

dispersed? Well, you know, how I would have answered that 12 months ago, I think, is perhaps difference than how I would answer it now. I think that everything is going to be more dispersed, right? I think that one of the things that the pandemic has taught us is that there is a lot of room for people to work remotely. And I think the question is how remotely, right? Are a lot of people going to have jobs where they live in one state and their job is multiple states away from them? I don't know about that. Right. But are people going to have jobs where they live in a nice, mid-sized Midwestern city? And, you know, and then they are, you know, not going into the office every day.

That, I think, is probably going to happen. Right. Or are they, anyway, you get my point. I think that that a lot more is possible now because we have, we've discovered telework as an option. Yeah. And it plays right into what you're doing. We're just about out of time, but I'm going to ask you some questions I got for you from Twitter. And Lord help me because I don't even know what I'm asking you, but I think that these will be fun.

And I'm just going to go for it. And if I say something politically incorrect, then I'll just remove it from the recording. Okay, fish fry or fish boil? I'm a vegetarian. So, no fish. No fish. I have no idea what this means. New Glaris or Sprecker.

Oh, I'm sorry, but New Glaris for sure. Okay. Are those beard gardens? Yeah. Okay, cool. The hell is up with Bubbler. What's Bubbler? Oh.

So our library has this fantastic sort of innovation maker space called the bubler. And I assume that's what they're referring to. I don't know. I think so. Yeah. And it's really awesome. It brings together artists and makers and innovators and gives people a chance to really

indulge their creativity and learn something at the same time. Not a lot going on since COVID, but really exciting stuff in the past and hopefully again in the future. Yeah. Okay. Great. There was somebody who also asked about something. Oh, here.

We have, is the silver dollar really closed? Yes, but yes. What's that? Sorry. It's a bar. Oh, I'm sorry, folks, silver dollar. That's rough. Let's see.

And do we have one more? Oh, yeah. What can be done to get cannabis legalized statewide? Well, as a matter of fact, the governor just proposed that. Okay. And for the record, I'm fully supportive. Okay. Well, what a way to end it. We'll see what happens. That'll really be a competitive advantage for you guys in terms of all the techies used to legalize weed here in California. Thank you, Mayor Sautier Roads Conway. It's been great having you and wishing you the best of luck.

Thank you. It's a pleasure. Take care. All right. Have a good one. Well, there we go. We're breaking news. Ask tech questions. Get answers on weed. It sort of reminds me of home back here in San Francisco. Okay. So for our final conversation, let's hear from Mayor Steve Adler of Austin. It's worth listening to this one with a careful ear. You'll hear how Mayor Adler speaks somewhat carefully and walks a tightrope about tech's impact on Austin. He's a real contrast and approach from Mayor Suarez. And look, at a certain point, I had to ask him if it would even be politically feasible to fully embrace the tech industry. I like his approach. Let Austin be Austin and everything else comes after that. He also got directly into the benefit he sees in tech.

coming from Austin. So listen out for that. And now here's Mayor Adler. Mayor Adler, welcome to the show. Good to be with you. Thanks for the invite. Of course. Yeah, it's great to have you on. I know we're catching you right before you go into a COVID briefing with the city. So I appreciate you making the time. Absolutely. So I'd like to start by zooming out. We're having this conversation today because people have been talking about how COVID has supposedly upended the way that people work and the way that the composition of where companies go in the United States exists currently. So I do think that there is a case to be made that everything goes back to normal once this ends. And we return to the typical power centers in San Francisco

and New York and that people are temporarily camped out in other cities and they'll resume as things were afterwards. So why do you think that's wrong? Well, I think for some people that's going to be right, but for others it won't be. And I think part of it is exposure. You know, you don't know what you're not doing or seeing or feeling or experiencing until you do. I think Austin, for example, is that kind of place. It's, I think, qualitatively different than a lot of other places. and I think it's in so many different ways.

And I think that there are people that get a taste for something different and then like what that feels like. I think that there are a lot of experiences that people have seen with the ability to be able to be productive in different ways. That's going to have continued attraction. but I also still believe that the attraction for urban centers is going to be something that remains. I think there's an energy and something that is missing socially when you're not around a lot of people. Right. And you say Austin is different in a number of ways.

Do you want to list maybe two or three? I think the most significant way that Austin is different is we have. it's a real accepting city we have it's a it's a place where it's okay for people to be different you know the catch rates and the city is you keep austin what does that mean um to me what that means is that uh you can try things and and act and be outside of the box i think that there's a higher tolerance for taking risks in austin than any other city that i've ever been in when you do something and you fail, it doesn't get punished in Austin the same way it does in most other places.

And that encourages people to try things, which I think leads to greater innovation, which is why I think there's more startups per capita in this city than just about any other place that I'm aware of, because there's a cultural value in supporting and encouraging and allowing people to try things that are outside of the box, which makes this a really creative and entrepreneurial and socially accepting city. Austin had kind of been on a role. It still is before all this happened for COVID. And the data that I've seen has actually showed that tech worker migration to Austin has slowed down a bit. So, you know, people have talked about But it's still, it's still coming, but it's slowed down.

So has this been less of a boon to Austin, this period of time, been less of a boon to Austin, than a lot of people seem to have in their minds in terms of tech worker migration and tech company migration? We see the big headlines with Oracle, but what's going on on the ground? You know, I'm not sure that I, that I have the information of data to give you a holistic picture. my senses is that there is a migration and a movement and energy in the city because I think there's just growing opportunities here. When I talk to people and my data is all anecdotal. So with that understanding, when I talk to leaders in other cities,

my senses is that Austin is doing well because a lot of, it's a cultural issue. And I think that this is an easy city to be in. For many people in other cities, this is an inexpensive place to be, unless, of course, you've grown up here. So if there is a slowing down of migration into this city, it's not something that I've seen. Yeah. And so this is definitely important stuff. It seems like every mayor wants their city to be a tech hub. So just give me an idea of what the stakes are.

Is tech going to be the main driver for cities in the U.S. in terms of economic growth? Is it part of the mix? Where's the growth going to come from elsewhere? I don't think that Austin right now is driving to be a tech city because tech cities are the future of cities or that's the way to go. I don't think that the desire to be tech drives. I think there's a cultural value in this city that. relates to music as much as it does to tech, and that's what this city is and who we are in this city, and I think that that's what drives the, that's what drives the city. And if it

translates into attracting tech and being a good place for tech to be, which I think it is and it does, then that happens, but it's almost incidental to the culture. I think that the large companies come here because the people they want to have work for them want to live in this city. And I think then that what follows is then the big companies here or the tech companies here, but what drove it was the quality of life questions that a lot of people, apparently in that industry, want to be around. And I think that goes back to what we started with, where this is a city that is open to innovation in a way that's not forced. There's a natural drive to that because of the risk tolerance profile.

It's fascinating to hear you talk about the tech migration to Austin as incidental because I think the view from the outside is a lot of people see Austin out there. You know, this is the perception that Austin is out there. recruiting tech companies to come. And I was just speaking with a former resident of your city earlier today. And this person mentioned that Austin has had a years-long campaign far before COVID to recruit tech companies in. So how do those two things square?

Like, do you have like an economic development group that's going out to tech companies and trying to get them to move from San Francisco? Or is it just you're only taking inbound leads? I think most of it is inbound leads. You know, I think it was different 25, 30 years ago when you had the first consortions leaving, trying to pick up a lot of the early tech manufacturing that existed overseas. And I think that, again, at that point, it was people trying to tie the natural abilities and the natural culture that existed in.

city and tie it to an industry where it seemed like there was a match and fortuitous for this city the match happened to be in industries that were focused on idea generation and creativity and innovation and entrepreneurship and that intersection with art and creativity it just turned out to be a good play or a good bet I mean that's who we are so most of what's happening. happening in this city is inbound leads. That is not to say that we also don't recruit in the city because it's obviously a strength that exists. But, you know, when you had cities all over the country competing for Amazon headquarters, Austin, I think, was involved in that in a very different way than most of the cities. I liked your pitch. It wasn't crawling to Amazon. It was more like

this is what we got. That's what we got. And these are our, these are. Yeah. No, it's the way that most elected should have handled it. We have challenges here. We're looking for, we're looking for people that want to be neighbors and get involved in both what's, what's working and what's not working.

Yeah. And I want to talk about those challenges. One last question on the economy. I mean, you're, you're the mayor. You look at the numbers. So what, what, I mean, and I know tech has, it's interesting to hear about the incidental move, but like, going. going directly at the numbers, like when you, how important, when you look at your mix of industries

in your city, how important is tech, you know, from an economic standpoint? Tech is real important and tech is obviously really broad. You know, we're really lucky in this city to have a lot of jobs that pay a lot. The real need in my city right now is for middle skill jobs, for jobs that people can do that don't require a four-year degree, so a two-year degree or a certification to a rapidly growing degree. A lot of those jobs are tech jobs. And so having a company that would come in like Tesla is important for our city. It's clean manufacturing, and it drives that middle-skilled job. But in an area that we lean into,

So tech is obviously important and it's driving a lot of things that are wonderful in our city, but our challenges won't be cured by having eight more really big tech companies coming in with really well-paying jobs. Yeah, that's interesting. And I think that's kind of where you differ from the mayor of Miami who's just like, bring it all, bring all the tech companies and, you know, keep the taxes low and everything, you know, might work itself out. But it seems to me that like you're, and obviously the government needs to. make policies to try to decrease income inequality. But let's talk about the challenges because, you know, I think about what you talk about with Keep Austin Weird.

And of course, it's hospitable and encourages people to take chances and not be cookie cutter. But I think there's another side to it from what I understand, which is people say it and say like the folks that are moving in from like the tech industry aren't keeping it weird and might be a little bit more buttoned up and less experimental, more interested in money, perhaps. And so, you know, is, I guess like my question is, are the two also, you know, the two might jive together, but are the two also in conflict? What do you think about that?

I don't know. I think it's, I think it's more complicated and more nuanced than that. Great. You know, I'm not sure that that money is, I mean, money was a driver back when I got here in the late 70s. And I also know that I got here in 78. and everybody who got here with me in 78, absolutely sure that the people who got here in 79

are the ones that started screwing things up for the city. But the people who got here three years ago are sure that the ones who got here last year are the ones that started screwing it up. You know, my measure on that is Austin, when I got here, was attractive to me and a compelling place because art was being created everywhere.

everywhere and I look at some other cities that have gone through kind of progress and there are cities that don't create art as much as they consume art and I think that there's a real turn when that happens to a city Austin is still a city that creates art everywhere and and the key for us in terms of trying to drive policy is how do we how do we maintain that So, yes, we have an economy that's up right now, and it's getting more and more expensive to live here. I'm not sure that it's in, you know, the search of the dollars is the motivating thing as much as affordability impacts that, that creative mix that we can't afford to lose. So we can't afford to lose the fabric of people that exist in the city so that we continue to be a city that creates art. how do you do it?

I mean, you are going to, yeah, what's, yeah. It's hard, you know, but it takes a community that is really devoted to it and is willing to sacrifice for it. We passed, you know, the largest affordable housing bond that the city's ever passed fourfold larger than anything that we've ever done before. In the middle of the pandemic, the community agreed to do it a total. to establish a mass public transit system that was centered on equity. And a big component of the transit program was not for stock or capital infrastructure.

It was for the anti-displacement strategies associated with that. So I think it's just being really focused that the conversations about equity in the city go beyond just wanting to be. be able to talk about equity, but people realize that if we're not successful in the equity issues, it's existential for us. So there's a lot of work, which is why we're not only in the middle of the policing pre-imagination conversation that's going on in some other cities, but I really think we're actually progressing through it in ways that other cities are having difficulty doing in part again because we realize that it's existential to who we are. If we don't nail this, if we don't do this right, then the city will change.

And people want us to preserve the magic of this place. Yeah, and it is a magical city. I'm a big fan. So I'm just going to try to wrap it up. So it's very interesting to hear your perspective on this, that tech. surge in Austin has been something that's kind of happened incidentally, that they're an important part of the economy, and that they're also, well, I wouldn't even say that you've said that they're core of the challenges, but I wonder if there is a compromise between that and the

challenges you talk about in terms of having a place where artists are able to live in terms of affordable housing and, you know, neighborhoods like your east side are able to, you know, maintain their character? I believe that there's an intersection of those things. I think that one could destroy the other. But at the same time, I also think that the tech movement to our city is bringing real significant energy and certainly a level of resources that wouldn't exist here otherwise. And you can either take that energy in those resources and use it to,

to meet those challenges or you can use those resources to exacerbate the challenges and that's really the place this city is right now in five or ten years we'll know whether or not we were able to steer those things

in direction you need to be but one of the things that I really like about this city is that you know people self-s like to be here I mean there are other wonderful cities Miami's a wonderful city but I also think that the people that feel really comfortable and really like Miami,

just really wouldn't like it here that much. I wouldn't like Austin. And vice versa. So there's a certain kind of person that self-selects to be here. And I think part of that nature is the privacy of recognizing that we each have to invest in and help protect the magic that attracted us here. And I think if we can all stay true to that, then we can actually make this work.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting to hear you speak about it, that tech has an important place in Austin that can be part of the solution and that it's welcome in your city. Very much. And I look at that and I, yeah, go ahead. No, no, very much. In fact, and I think that it has to be that way. And I think that's the reason why, because it's seen not as an end

in and of itself, but as providing the ability and a tool to help us continue what we have. You know, I can remember really well, arriving as a law student, up on the drag, near the law school, everybody upset about this new bar that had gone into this favorite location. The old bar had left, and everybody was really pissed at this new bar that was coming in and the change that it represented and the fact that Austin was dying. And now here, 45 years later, that bar is in danger. and the city can't even imagine what it would be like if we somehow or another can't preserve and keep that bar.

And it's true, and we need to try to keep that. But I'm okay with the city evolving and changing and growing so long as it continues to preserve what it is that's special. Right. And you see a good positive post-pandemic future as far as tech work in the city. I think so. And it's been a really positive influence.

in so many ways thus far. And I think that the tech leadership is beginning to get more and more involved civically and more and more invested in the community. And I think that's a really good sign. I know we're a bit over time, but I've got to ask you one more question. Sure. Do you need to, do you have to tiptoe around the way that you speak about, like, the tech industry's impact?

Because I'm sure a lot of the people, a lot of the residents of your city, you know, will sometimes associated with, you know, the rise in real estate costs or some of the other challenges that you're sitting. So do you like have, like politically, do you have like a challenge to, you know, you need to stop short of fully embracing them coming in? Or am I reading that wrong? No, I think you're reading the politics, right? I don't feel the need to tipto around it because this is how I came into the office and how I've talked about it has been a consistent since I since I got here. But you were right.

I mean, there is that element of the city that feels that in order to be able to preserve what it is, it's magical about this, things can't change. And to that group, the no new ways or different ways will be more threatening because it presents kind of an unknown. So that politics exists in this city as it does in other cities. but but not to the degree that I think that it silences the voices of progress you know my message has always been looking forward and moving forward and that I think is the winning strategy for the city but then I think that

forward movement and forward looking has been what the city has had for the five decades I've been here. Yeah. As we wrap up, Oracle's coming to Austin. It's going to be headquartered in your city. Larry Ellison is moving to Lanai. Are you upset that he's going to Hawaii and not coming to live with you guys? Hey, you know, Lanai is a nice place. It'd be hard to criticize anybody for hitting to Lanai. I'm hoping that he visits here a lot. Because with the company here, I think that, you know, they need to be also invested in what's, what's good and what our challenges are, too. And I trust that they will be. Yeah, I've spent time with him. He's a fascinating guy. I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to hang out together. And man,

would I like to be a fly on the wall for that? Thank you, Mayor Adler. It's great to see you. Take care. Take care. I appreciate you joining us. Absolutely. Bye-bye. And that will do it for us here on the big technology podcast. Look, I found these series of conversations to really paint a picture of what we can expect from tech in the United States moving forward. cities big and small see opportunity to take the crown from Silicon Valley, and it seems like they have a real chance to build on their momentum. And each will take their own path. Some more aggressively, like Mayor Suarez, and some will do what they can to attract the industry, quote unquote, incidentally, like Mayor Adler. And look, my eyes are now open to the potential for small

and mid-sized cities like Madison to make a real impact here. I came away impressed with all three mayors, and I do thank them for their time. If this is your first visit, it's a big technology podcast. You've reached all the way to the end. And so I think we have something here. We have a bond. Please hit subscribe and we'll get you new interviews with tech insiders and outside agitators and maybe some more elected officials, actually probably some more elected officials, every Wednesday. If you've been listening for a while, please give us a rating. Those help a lot. Thanks as always to Nate Gwattany for editing this beast of an episode and for Red Circle who hosts and sells ads on this podcast. We will see you next Wednesday for

another episode of big technology podcast. Until then, take care.