Big Technology Podcast - Why Facebook Will Keep Building For Kids — With Michael Sayman

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Michael Sayman was 16 years old when Facebook recruited him to join the company. The overture arrived as he was sitting in math class, and the teacher promptly took away his iPad. Sayman joins Big Technology Podcast to discuss why and how Facebook builds products for kids and teens (something he has intimate knowledge of) and the reasons why it won't stop. You can find Sayman's new book, App Kid, here: https://amzn.to/3uNDazI

Hello and welcome to the big technology podcast, a show for cool-headed, nuance conversation, of the tech world and beyond. And we have quite a show for you today. Facebook has been in the news for its desire to recruit preteens and the harmful effects that some of its products, including Instagram, as on teens, although that's been a bit of a subject of debate. Facebook's put out some of its own data after the Wall Street Journal put out a few damning stories about what Facebook does. Anyway, instead of speculating about this, why don't we bring in someone who's worked on products inside Facebook that in particular are all about attracting teams?

And he's with us here today, Michael Saman. He's a former Facebook product manager, yet a group product manager, right? Yeah. And he had a group of people working on products that might appeal to younger folks. And he's the author of the new book, Appkid, out in stores already. And I encourage you to get it. It's a tale of Michael's journey as I think the youngest product manager ever to work inside Facebook. And is filled with rich insights about his time there.

So Michael, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. excited to talk about this. Yeah, likewise. So first of all, let's just start with your personal story. You were appealing to Mark Zuckerberg in particular because of your work on products that could attract a younger demographic to Facebook. Is that right? Yeah. So I actually, I got my start kind of building games as a kid when I was like 13, 14. From there, I guess the book kind of goes into the details of how my family ended up in a financial dilemma after the recession hit and they had lost their jobs and we lost her home. Due to that, I kind of felt this urge and I guess really necessity to build apps that then provided for my family. And so I started building games, started building apps to do that out of the necessity.

Over time, I started getting really good at it in high school, and I was building a couple of games that started getting more attention and more downloads. A couple of those games reaching millions of users, at which point the craziest thing in my life happened, which was in the middle of a math class in high school, I got an email from Facebook saying that Mark Zuckerberg wanted to meet with me. And I thought it was so strange because, I mean, I just, I didn't think there was anything to meet with me about other than maybe like, I don't know. Like, I didn't think what I did was that impressive.

So how old were you at the time? I was 16 at the time. So it was really interesting. What, you were in math class when you got the email from? Yeah. Or from Facebook? Yeah. And I got my iPad taken away from me by my teacher.

one I used it in the middle of the class. Yeah. It was a bit of a panicky moment. But yeah. So I, yes, that's kind of how everything started, right? I had built those games and that's kind of how I got recruited into Facebook at, I guess, such a young age at the time. So when did you officially start as a Facebook employee?

Were you initially too young to even be an employee? Yeah. So I actually started out before I was 18. And my parents actually had to sign early. And my parents were the ones to sign the NDA and the whole deal when I joined the company, which is... So you were 17 or something like that? Yeah, I was 17 when I had started. So, yeah, my parents signed the contracts for that, which was odd because I guess my parents were being paid by Facebook for me working there.

So if you think about it, that's like an interesting model. But, yeah, that was essentially how I got started. And then, of course, once I turned 18, they rewrote a new contract. I actually got, you know, full-time actual employee, and I got my starting there. So, yeah. Wild. Okay. So what is, you know, you met with Mark Zuckerberg, of course.

What in particular was the appeal of having you work for Facebook? And I'm going to give you a bit of a leading question. I imagine it was because younger kids are Facebook's next batch of users. They had to figure out how to attract them. And you, 17-year-old talented developer, might have been someone who was their route in. Yeah, so I would say that, like, Facebook operates very similarly to how a lot of the major media companies have operated in the past, like Disney or Comcast, where they have networks and they have shows and they have programs that cater to different demographics. And they're continuously on the hunt to try and understand the next generation, right? what's the next group going to be interested in?

What's the next trend that's coming up? And how do those people work? So Facebook was started by college kids for college kids. And it was very easy in that regard because they didn't have to do a lot of research. They could just ask themselves what they wanted and they built it. But as they started aging up and they started becoming older and having kids and having that whole situation, this was maybe around 2014, 2015. They started, I think, to realize that, you know, the next. next generation of internet users that are hopping onto these devices every day, they don't

understand. They frankly don't have the experience of. So I guess from there, they kind of took it upon themselves to try and not only research and understand those demographics, but also bringing more people from those groups and those generations to come and work for them. And so I think that's kind of where that came from with me. So I want to read you a quote from one of the recent Wall Street Journal articles. Facebook is always telling us about how its products make people, people's lives better, and how it believes in connection, and that's why folks, you know, should use it. But it's also a company that depends on growth to survive. And like you mentioned, you know, it sort of needs the young to come in if it's going to have any chance of competing.

There's a slide in the Wall Street Journal. It says, why do we care about tweens? I'm going to pause here, because I think that, you know, the answer they tell the public is they care about tweens. I mean, it's amazing tweens like, what, 10, 11, 12-year-olds, right? You would imagine that they would, you know, find the way to have, they care about them because they think the Facebook product could benefit them in some way, at least if you listen to what they say in public. But what's their answer on that internal slide? It's they are a valuable but untapped audience.

That's why they care about tweens. that's very different from what we hear from the company usually so when you were inside yeah i'm kind of curious what you think is it a purely like you know we got to hook them you know young because we were talking in this moment about instagram kids and messenger for kids and you know the facebook executives will like proudly go in front of the media and say i need my children to have these products will make their lives better it will help me stay in touch with them um but then you look internally and it's all about, I mean, it really seems, it feels like a mine, right? They are a valuable but untapped audience. It's like this mine, this, this is a valuable but

untapped mountain filled with ore. What do you think? Maybe I'm being too negative. I think the, I think the language that a lot of these types of slides tend to have within companies comes from researchers, data scientists who kind of frame everything that they do in terms of these types of words, right? Like, I think that's the case. But from at least my experience within Facebook and working with other product teams, I'm trying to understand these generations and these new demographics, it's, I think it's always been about like trying to create a product that resonates with people who have a different experience than they've ever been able to understand before. So it's always come from that place, at least on the product side. I do know,

obviously, like, the way that that ends up manifesting, especially in recent years, is crazy, right? It's so different from what it was, you know, in the beginning. I will say, though, like, Facebook is on a house of cards. The company is not as, you know, unstoppable as I think they once were. or at least they once were perceived to be, right? I actually don't think they've ever been unstoppable. If anything, I think the approach that Facebook has always taken to these things

has been one of an almost like terrified, like, of, you know, failing, right, constantly. And so every time that Facebook goes and looks at the landscape of social problems, I think they see a very competitive environment where a lot of different companies and apps out there like TikTok and YouTube and so on are building features and the building use cases that they don't have available on their product and they're really taking away users from Facebook in many ways. So I think the challenge for Facebook has been and continues to be that they realize, I think pretty clearly that. one generation using their product does not mean that the next generation is going to come on and use the product as well. I think they realize that as people age, they kind of stick to the products that they use and they grow old with them. Right. And as that's been the case, and I think this is kind of the message I gave at Facebook was somewhat of an alarmist message. I was talking

about how like my generation wasn't using Facebook. And if Facebook wanted to, you know, attract these users, they would have to understand them. There was always this belief within the company that my generation would hit a certain age and then would want to use the product. And I think it was that realization that the next generation is not just going to go and use the product that their parents used or that, you know, those who are slightly older would use. That led Facebook to starting to realize that every generation needs its own, I guess, team

in a sense. And so that's where the green light was for me to focus on building products for my generation. Yeah. Now, I want to go back to the Wall Street Journal stories. There's another story that Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls company document show. Here's a quote from it. 32% of girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse. And they say, we make body issues worse for one in three teen girls.

Of course, like, you know, the first quote is the sample was already people that were feeling bad. Yeah. So, you know, it's going to be a big number. Yeah. It's actually kind of amazing that 68% didn't feel worse. Yeah. When they're using Instagram, I wonder what Instagram they're using. But the one in three, you know, the fact that they accentuate body issues for one in three teen girls is alarming.

Yeah. And now I want to put that side by side with what you just mentioned, which is that, you know, the company is not unstoppable. I think we both agree. It's the most vulnerable of all tech giants. Yeah. So when we hold both of these thoughts in mind, the fact that Facebook does know that it has harmful effects, you know, clearly its data shows that, and it must grow and it must attract younger users in order to fend off, you know, these competitors, is there a view inside the company that it doesn't really have a choice but to, you know, attract. these younger demographics, even if there is some, I don't know, collateral damage. Well, I actually think it's kind of the opposite in that regard.

I think it's that the fact that Facebook is so vulnerable and is so easily can, like, people can just sign off and go use another app, the fact that it's in that state and they understand it means that I think they're trying to do everything possible to understand why people are even leading their platform. Like, why are, for example, the youngest of their users not as interested in Instagram as some of the older ones? Maybe starting to realize that there's tremendous pressure in the algorithm that currently exists on Instagram to make people feel like they're not good enough to post. This was something I was always trying to tackle since when I was there was talking about how like in order to make a product that resonates with people, you need to make sure that they're having a good time on it and that generally it is making their lives better. If that's not the case, like, they're going to leave.

Eventually, they'll break. They're not going to keep handling that, right? So I think that's kind of the case. I think Facebook is kind of trying to figure out how it can not have those things happen in their platform. And the challenge, I think, has always been like, how do you do that? Right? Because you see platforms that are broadcast platforms in general, promoting content that people

like. And if you have content that people like going up in the ranks, the more that someone likes content, the more it gets surfaced, the content that looks the best gets surfaced, and you end up extrapolating that, and you can see how any type of popular feed with any type of likes will drive users to only seeing content that is the most liked. And as soon as you start doing that,

you drive the quality bar up to the point where the average user feels like they need to hit a certain quality bar to even post content. So then you start seeing people posting less and so on, And that's not good for Facebook. So Facebook obviously needs to fix that, right? And so I think it kind of works together that way, where it's clear that, you know, so many people who go on these apps will see some of the most popular content and then feel disheartened to post their own thing because, you know, they can't compete

or they can't compare. And, I mean, I experienced that, right? Mm-hmm. Same here. Okay. So it seems to me that Facebook views. this research a little differently than the rest of the public does, which may lead us to the conclusion that they are having a very different experience with some of these critical

stories than the rest of us. So I want to get inside Facebook's head, and let's do that right after the break. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about the Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than two million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes on business and tech news. Now, they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily Show, where their team of writers break down the biggest business headlines in 15 minutes or less and explain why you should care about them. So, search for The Hustle Daily Show and your favorite podcast app like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on the big technology

podcast with Michael Saman. He's the author of a brand new book, App Kid, out in stores, now, and he spent a number of years inside Facebook as a very young product manager trying to find out what would appeal to kids and get the next batch of users on Facebook. So let's talk about the mindset of Facebook, which I teased right before the break. So the world is taking in these stories, and the perception is that Facebook harms teens girls and doesn't care about it at all. It seems to me that what your perspective is, the reason why they're doing this research is because it needs to know how it's making people feel. And if it's making them feel bad, it has to know how to fix that so it can retain them.

Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, that's my guess. I mean, that makes sense to me as to what I've seen since I was there from the beginning. I think every time I'd been at Facebook, it was always a question of, well, you know, if people don't. don't enjoy the experience, they can leave. It's not like an ecosystem of, you know, the types of ecosystems that other tech companies have where they can kind of trap users against their will.

The person at Facebook just simply leaves if they don't want to use it. So they have to worry about that 10 times worry. So let me, yeah, let me ask you this then. How do you think they are, how do they perceive this type of criticism internally? Because, you know, hearing it from your perspective, you know, I bet there's a lot of angry Facebook people who are like, we're doing this research so we can eliminate this type of stuff. And the world is making it seem like we're, you know, we're proudly harming girls and don't

care. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think within Facebook, it's always been the case that they, that they've always felt like it's been hard to explain some of these things. I think Facebook has always had an interesting relationship with the media. um where say more about that yeah well i mean you you always you always see how um there's one thing that happens and they try and build a product and then it totally turns out the opposite way when the user ends up uh or sorry when the um what do you call it when the media ends up

it up right and and you end up with a a totally different narrative from from what's intended i i think also like the newsfeed is the first example that the newsfeed came out everyone hated it oh yeah yeah I think Facebook has always had that, what do you call it, that dilemma with the media. I think also the challenge has always been because the product is inherently about social features that should resonate with people. It's almost like Facebook is trying to understand people as its main primary goal compared to most other companies out there, most tech companies out there. I think people are complicated. And so I think generally Facebook is going to end up being. wrong more than they are going to be right for most of those cases. And it's a matter of just

continuously iterating. And I think they just are in a tough space. I think, frankly, out of all the tech companies, they're in the type of space that just is not as easy to get right. And when you get it wrong, there's some serious implications for what happens. So I think they have to be very cautious with what they end up launching and how they do that because of those implications. I want to ask you, there are people who are wondering whether there's going to be fundamental change inside Facebook after these journal stories. We have a whistleblower that's testifying before Congress about the stuff. But again, you've just taken us inside the mindset of the company. And I, again, you know, imagine there's going to be a lot of defensive folks there who are

like, yes, we are trying to fix this. Yeah. Do you think that, how do you think they are going to respond to this crisis? Do you think they just let it blow over and stay the course? No, definitely not. And I guess like at a corollary to that, I mean, Instagram isn't, you know, brand new. It's been around for a while, yet it's still causing all these body issues. So like, you know, is there a part of that company that's just trading engagement and understanding that it will do some collateral damage to girls' self-esteem? Yeah, I think the company is definitely going to change from things like this. I think every time something like this comes up within the company, there's either massive talks,

within the company or trying to understand a group more or trying to reach out more or trying to do more research or more understanding. I think that's definitely going to be the case with something like this. I mean, it's clear that the company, to me, it's clear that the company is trying to fix these issues. But at the same time, it's like, how are you going to go about it, right? How are you going to go about doing that? So I kind of see that kind of coming over time.

I think it's also interesting because, like, when I had joined the company, I was 17 and I spent my years there growing up at Facebook. It was very weird. And I think that's kind of the strangest part about this for me has been like, they kind of raised me in a way. Like in the weirdest way, my parents are like 50 product managers from Facebook, right? Like they taught me how to drink wine. They taught me how to, you know, like how to drive.

I learned so many things from people there that you don't learn at Facebook. It's like, what would it be like to go to college if you spend your, entire life within a company like Facebook and those are the people that you go hang out with um so my perspective has always been one um that i've questioned too right because it's like wait hold up like you know they fed me and washed my clothes and provided rent for me when i was a kid right and that obviously shapes my perception do you trust them uh do you trust them to have uh positive effects with their products on other kids' lives, you know, having been raised by them. Yeah, I think you go firsthand what their parenting skills are. Yeah, I mean,

I think it's, I think it's important to remember always that a company is not a family, right? It's a company at the end of the day. No matter how much it feels like a family, it's still a company. And when it comes to, I think to your question, like a matter of trust, what I trust is kind of the incentives, right? Like, what are the incentive? What are they trying to get to? And if their incentive is truly to build a product that resonates with people and that they enjoy using and they have like a very fickle audience or whatever that

could leave, then at the end of the day, they're going to have to build something that resonates because if they don't, they're just going to leave. So in my view, the way I see it is whether or not like, you know, regardless of what intentions anyone within the company has, I think. if you build a product that doesn't make people feel good, they're going to leave. Eventually, they're going to leave. And I think we kind of see it. And I think it's clear when you see, you know, the competition that Facebook's been having

over the last couple of years and how things have changed dramatically for them in that landscape from even just a couple of years ago that, you know, they really are starting to take a look at that, right? You know, now more than ever. And I think all I hope for, honestly, is that what they're able to uncover from understanding these things leads them to building a product that is generally more empathetic. I think that's a challenge that we're going to have to see. And I hope that the incentives are aligned like that. That's kind of how I think they are.

But at the end of the day, that's the challenge. It's like, what if you end up with a company where the incentives aren't lined up? where does that lead the company where does that lead the products that they build but isn't that the case now i mean i hate to say it but facebook uh executives have compared their products to sugar and sugar is something that you know will make you feel good momentarily but it's bad for you in the long run yeah and oh yeah if so i do wonder i mean i i take your point that um that they want people to feel good about using the products, but they've gone out and said it, you know, that there is a sugar comparison to it. And, you know, having that in mind, I know that growth and

engagement are the North Star in that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's how you were evaluated as a product manager. Not on. Yeah, and PMs are their metrics. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the challenge. It's like, you end up. We've talked about us here in the past. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a certain level of like responsibility that needs to be had around like what are the metrics that you're aiming for right like what are the metrics that you're trying to go towards um i still think that like the ultimate the ultimate success and growth of a company that's a social company is one that provides users you know the value that makes them feel good and is not like sugar but rather is something where they can learn and grow as a person and connect with people but the problem is

there are a lot of shortcuts along the way that one can take to kind of create some type of growth that maybe doesn't necessarily result in that outcome. And I think that's the thing to be careful about is when you know that there's this down-the-road ideal kind of product that actually provides people with really good value and connects them, but there is maybe, you know, let's say I'm just a new PM at a company and there's some type of metric and I really need to move the metric. I was never good at this because I would always try and talk. about the, you know, like, why, why are we doing something, but I wasn't scored on why.

But yeah, it's like, it's one of those things. It's like, you look at those questions, it's easy to say there can be situations where people will want to take a shortcut to get a certain number of engagement. But I think at the end of the day, no matter what, those things end up showing themselves, whether it's a year, six months, two years, they start to bubble up and they cause a dominole effect on the network that kind of kills it. And that's, Kind of how I see it. Right. So here's my question.

And, you know, feel free to, well, anyway, I'm just going to ask it. Go ahead. What's the true North Star there? Well. Is it, is it this engagement or is it, as you've talked about? Because, okay, you could met, I think Facebook has a saying, data wins arguments. You can measure engagement, and engagement can make people feel bad. You can't necessarily measure, I mean, you can, but it's much more difficult to measure.

what are the tweaks that we made that made people feel good or bad. So what is the true North Star? Because this is sort of the key to this discussion here. Yes. When it comes to serving younger users. Yes. Is it about their well-being or is it about growth? Yeah.

And I want to know from you having been there, what is the true nor a star? Because you can talk about building a good experience for people and retention all you want. Yeah. But if you're getting gold, as you put it, and Brian Boland has in the past on growth and engagement doesn't factor in those broader societal things like we've talked about. That's the thing is like those broader societal things might not have one or two metrics that you can tie to and easily say here's how it's affecting our growth, right?

And so what happens is those societal effects that these products have kind of have like these underlying like recessive metrics that pop up over the years. in the effects of what's happening in the dynamics of the social network. And so from there, you start to have to understand and get clues from the effects that it's happening as to what are the origins of these things? What are the interface elements? What are the patterns? What are the rules set on the algorithm that are affecting the product that lead it to that

direction? And so what I think is happening is a lot of times you'll just use a simple metric, drive that metric up, and it'll do great. And then two years later, that metric starts to fall and you're like, wait, why? We didn't change anything. But the reality is that there were decisions that were made two years prior that are affecting that metric that just haven't shown themselves. And those are actually the things that deal with the issues of how does that product serve the well-being of the person. Because those are ones that show over time and you can't grade off of like a three-month period, right?

So that's, I think that's a challenge for them is, yeah, how do you get that out there? How do you quantify that and understand it better so that when you release a feature, you're not just looking at the immediate metric that comes out of it? And there are going to be people, and I actually think there's merit to what they're saying that, you know, we'll say it's going to be about culture at the end of the day if you're a growth culture versus well-being culture, which seems clear, having spoken with you and others, that's what Facebook is. that's where you end up in this place.

And I think it's all over in terms of like different product managers and how people try to lead product vision. Yeah. It's amazing, Michael, the way the way that we started this discussion versus now getting into the nitty gritty, right? Yeah. Which is that Facebook might on a spiritual level know that it needs to make people feel good when using their products. Otherwise, people aren't going to come back. But on a physical level, you know, what it's doing is grading on the stuff that is causing the problems. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think there's a big distinction here between, like, the short-term goals and the long-term. I think in the long-term want people to have, you know, good well-being and be happy and healthy with the product you're using because it's like sugar. If your product is literally sugar, the person dies. Like, you don't, you know, what are you going to sell a person who's not alive? You can't sell them anything, right? Like, that seems kind of messed up, right? Like, so you don't want.

somebody to just be addicted to your product because I just think, frankly, like, that just doesn't result in a good outcome. And so for me, it's like, yeah, it's, it's a long term. And it's a harder problem, right? And I think a lot of people sometimes want to be lazy. Right. Yep. Yeah. And let me ask again, when we talk about changes inside the company after the hearings that we're going to see and we're going to, you know, get the Wall Street Journal's, you know, reaction inside. Do they change the metrics upon which they evaluate people? I think they have to. If they don't change those things, like we were talking about,

Facebook is not is not unstoppable. I think they certainly have to. And I think it's- I just wonder if they have the will to do it. And I think, well, I think Zuckerberg certainly does. I think Zuckabberg certainly does. I think if they understand how these things affect their product longer term,

which I suspect that they're starting to, or at least they have for a while, then they will know that they have to change these metrics for the survival of their own social network. Like, if they don't change these things, the company can't grow, can't survive. So the way I see it is, you know, I hope they do. And I think they should. And I think there are plenty of people in the leadership who are starting to understand that.

And I hope that, I hope that that's the case. Because at least, I think it's just for the good of the people who are using the products as well as, and forget the growth of the company, just for the good of the people that are using the products. I think that that means to change. Michael, there's a moment that we're experiencing right now where the tech industry has become resistant to listening to journalists, journalists in general. They've demonized, not the whole industry. I mean, obviously we have a listenership here. I think people listen because they know they're going to get a balanced perspective and we'll have people that are not only journalists, but people from industry like

yourself to come on and discuss this stuff. But there is a segment of the tech world that isn't listening to reporters anymore and is demonizing them. And certainly, you know, we know that Facebook is responding differently to this crisis than previous ones. Cambridge Analytica, for instance, it sort of sat and was very apologetic. Now it's firing back. So do you think that some of that that trendline in the tech industry to not listen to reporters is starting to make its way into Facebook. It seems like it is to me. And I'm curious, you know, they've seen this data internally before. So it's not new to them. And, you know, I wonder if this, the stories will make them change. You know, I mean, we've talked about it a bunch. But like, you know, is there going to be a,

I guess the question I'm asking is, is there going to be a moment where Facebook says, screw these reporters you don't care what they say we're going to just do us. I hope not. Oh my God, no. Well, or at least be resisted because listen again, like what we're seeing.

Yeah, I think that there's been a general push, I think, from some people in the tech industry over the past few years that just generally they're just trying to ignore the whole, you know, the entire journalist's community, the entire press, like just all of it and saying like, who cares? I think that's kind of messed up, to be honest.

Like in many ways, I think journalism and like the press is kind of speaking for or giving perspective and challenging a lot of the questions and the product ideas that are being born in the tech industry without that I don't think you have, you know, a product that generally listens to people. So I think that's dangerous in general. I also think that Facebook's approach to the media and, you know, is a separate, entirely separate thing from like how. they end up making decisions on their products and how they end up, you know, kind of like working within the company on these issues. I think Facebook's approach to the media in general has shifted countless times. I think we've seen it since they started. Every time that they have a new approach or a different thing, you always see like a totally different angle to the whole story. I think we've seen even, you know, the press angle, the PR team at Facebook try

with Zuckerberg to have him do different types of things over the years. Some of them are super awkward. And you can tell that, like, as a company, they're trying to figure out how to do that. And, you know, I'm not going to lie. I don't think they're the, they're the north star of how you handle the media or how you, how you speak to journalists. Frankly, I think they've done a, they've done a lot of learning over the years with that. And so I hope that they can come to understand how to do this, but I see it that way.

I see it as like the company just continuously, the company is just continuously trying to learn how to, how to speak to the media, how to speak to the press. Right. But it's more than just communicating with the press, though. Here's New York Times article from Ryan Mack and Sheer-Frenkel, two former colleagues of mine, two former guests of the show on September 21st, 2021. No more apologies inside Facebook's push to defend its image. And essentially what it is, again, I sort of touched on this earlier, but it's a very different approach where instead of saying we're sorry, we'll take a broader, you know, view of our responsibilities, which was their line for a while, like the communications line is, no, you're wrong, you know, and I wonder how whether that gets back to employees. And, you know, if you're in the company, how that impacts your willingness to take into consideration what the journal and the times and others are saying. Yeah, I think they're trying a different approach for ones. I think, for example, in this particular case, I believe them when they say that they think they think that they're being misinterpreted.

I understand that they are trying at least now to explain how they feel about this situation. I think there have been times where they've been asked questions about decisions that they make and they immediately go and say, I'm so sorry, you know, like, and let me, you know, let me just, um, apologize for everything that we, you know, and it's like, and it's like, no, like they, they've made decisions where they've decided to do things for certain reasons. And it's like, are you going to just immediately apologize for what you've done? Are you going to try and explain what you've done? So I, the way I see it is they're trying to approach here. They're trying to like, I think they're trying to find a way to, um, I don't know, to explain how they're doing what they're doing. Um, and frankly, like, I don't

know how it's going to turn out. I don't know if this is the approach that they should be taking or not. But it certainly is clear to me that it seems like Facebook thinks that this is the right approach with this case. And if you ask me how I think they're doing in terms of why they're deciding to do these things, that's kind of what we talked about, right? Is I think that that's kind of where they came from. Yeah. Instagram for kids. What the hell is going on there? Well, you see, You see, it's funny because to me, I, you know, when I hear Instagram kids, I think a totally different thing than what I think most people think when they hear Instagram kids. I think most times, and I think that's kind of the issue of, my Facebook's never really

been good at branding, right? So let's be clear with that. Facebook hasn't really been good at branding pretty much most things. Well, you know, as a former student of advertising, the brand is often a reflection of the soul of the company. Yeah, well, I mean, I would hope not. And I will tell you from my experience, it doesn't seem that way. I think the company is very divided in that regard.

But I would say that... Say more about that before you go on to divide it in what regard. Well, I think that it's very clear from the way that they brand their products that a lot of times some of the people making those decisions have no idea how to do that, right? Like, they're not translating the intentionality behind the products. I think, like, a lot of companies do have those things very tied together. but if you if you look at the way that the Facebook's structured and how they make your decisions around how they market or pitch their products to the journalists and the world versus the teams who are focused on trying to figure out how to build these products there's very clearly a very different set of people doing these things that have a very different set of ideas around okay let's let's get back to Instagram for kids what's going on there yeah so um The way I see it is, I think the issue with Instagram Kids is that the name is even Instagram Kids, just to be fair.

I think we had a chat, I think, on Twitter spaces with Sarah Fryer and a few others. I think it was a few months ago when there were first rumors about there being an Instagram Kids product. And a lot of the discussion was around like, you know, will kids have, you know, an ability to post content and to have likes and their graph and, and questions around how to port it, you know, how would they port Instagram into that type of environment? And I frankly just don't see the market opportunity with that. I just don't see it. I think younger kids don't have an interest in, in a lot of the things that those older kids do in terms of social peer pressure. You get to certain ages, like six, seven, eight years old. And I don't think you're talking about, like, you know, posting a selfie that you're at the beach. I just don't see a six-year-old wanting to do that. What I do see, though, is opportunity in the entertainment industry.

When you look at YouTube Kids, which was a success within the company, and when I was at YouTube, I remember kind of the rollout of this product, right? YouTube Kids, for example, resonates because it's not a social number. network. It's a product that primarily focuses on engaging users through entertaining content or relevant shows targeted and meant for educational purposes many times for kids. In a similar way, I think you start seeing other networks like the Disney Channel or Nickelodeon and how they target kids with entertainment. These are content creation platforms that distribute their services, but at the same time, the content creators are limited. And there's not a lot of of content production happening from the six-year-old, right?

And so I think you look at that. And then you look at, for example, me at Roblox right now, a product that is used by kids all over. And you can understand that, like, there is a growing trend towards kind of migrating that entertainment of cable news. And I'm sorry, not cable news, but like cable TV that kids have been watching since the 90s and porting that over to a digital format. where you can you can kind of engage with kids of that age.

The challenge I think, though, is, yeah. Yeah. So it seems like a, yeah, like a product akin to YouTube where it's a consumption versus posting. Yeah, 100%. And I, you know, and I've talked about that before. And I think that's kind of where that's headed. I think, you know, I have. So it's paused now.

Is it your view is that this is going to come out eventually? There's no stopping. Well, I don't think it's going to be Instagram kids. That's frankly it. I just don't think it's going to, and I don't think they should call it. that and I don't think that that's the case. I definitely do think that Facebook eventually is going to launch a, what do you call it, an entertainment platform that allows kids to consume content, of course.

Yeah, certainly. I think, you know, you see TikTok and there it is. Yeah. What does it need the kids? I mean, you know, there was this, again, going back to the story about the tweens, right? They're doing these slides talking or these reports talking about messenger kids. kids in playdates. I mean, the whole, the TLDR at the bottom of this document is absolutely hilarious. Well, it would be if it wasn't as sad as it is. Most kids, 68% 6595. I don't know what that means.

68% seems something I understand. Oh, I guess that's standard deviations. Do not use messenger kids during play dates. Yeah. Mainly because parents view the app as a way for kids to communicate with others when they're not together. Yeah. What type of company puts a report together talking about whether kids are using their app to communicate during playdates. I mean, they're there in person. Yeah, I think the question is like, for example, when a kid is playing Fortnite with their friends, like, how are they talking to each other? And then the realization that a lot of the younger kids are actually next to each other.

And then the question's like, well, is there any product there for them to be able to communicate without having to talk physically while they're doing that? And so I think that's kind of where that comes from. Yeah, but isn't it a little weird to you, though, communicating while they're next to each other? I mean, they're next to each other. Well, yeah. Facebook, it's the one place Facebook should not want it. Actually, I mean, that's actually a good question.

I don't think, I don't think that we are, I think it's important to understand the context that a lot of our generation grows up in. I remember when I was growing up and my dad had, you know, I message with me, a lot of times we couldn't talk in person because, you know, family drama that you can read in the book about. But a lot of times we ended up actually being able to communicate better through the gifs that we'd send each other and like the emoji reactions. And it was weird because it was a lot of this like type of communication that you wouldn't find in your life. Frankly, the way I see it is there is definitely potential for helping people communicate when they're next to each other through different types of online tools. To say that everyone wants to communicate in person when they're right next to each other, I think is. an assumption I would not, I would not make. This is why I love having technologists on the show.

But why, I guess again, like, I'm going to go back to it. Yeah. You know, five, six-year-olds, do they really need to be using the Facebook product? I mean, what's going on there? Well, I mean, to be fair, if they're not using the Facebook product, they're going to use any other product, right? Like, any kid who's on their iPad playing a game is going to try and talk to another kid while they're playing it.

And the question is, what tool are they going to use? Frankly, part of the reason why Messenger kids is, This doesn't even have that much usage is because of how many safety regulations and tools that the parents have to be involved in are used. We actually see a lot of these kids start going off and using tools that are completely unregulated. I personally did that when I was a kid, which I'm glad, you know, there are tools that exist that don't allow kids to do that if the parents do to have it. But that's frankly, I think a challenge. And I don't know. I think a lot of times when it comes to Facebook, some of this stuff, it's like, it's pretty clear to me.

Like, it's not too challenging, right? there are some things I think it's important to look at and say well hold up like you know let's you know let's not just go metric crazy right but uh when it comes to this in particular i i don't i don't know i it's just a it's a tool to use to message while you're playing a game right yep all right let's take one more break and and come back here and talk a little bit about your interactions with mark Zuckerberg in particular and then maybe some of the other key players in this story so we'll be back uh right after this on the big technology podcast with Michael Saman.

And we're back here for one final segment on the big technology podcast. Michael Saman is the author of the new book, App Kidd. If you're enjoying this conversation, I would recommend going out and getting it. If you're not enjoying this conversation, we're 45 minutes in, so put on some music and take a walk. Michael, let's talk a little bit about your interactions with Mark Zuckerberg. How curious was Mark to learn about how kids interact with, their phones and social apps. And did you feel like it was coming from like a good place or some people might say,

you know, it was coming from an evil place where Mark must hook the next generation of kids while they're on play dates? Yeah, well, that's the whole cycle these days. It's, uh, it's, you know,

the evil mastermind, you know, this whole deal. And like, I'm not going to lie, I was super intimidated to meet him when I first, uh, started working there because I indeed was a kid.

Um, but, um, you know, it's surprisingly, surprisingly, you know, surprisingly the guy is, is just more awkward than anything else. I'm not going to lie. And, you know, and you look at the first thing that people ask me, he's like, oh, my gosh,

I watched this movie, you know, the social network, does he really like that? Like, what is he, how is it different? I'm like, he's definitely not as dramatic. Like, that's, that's certainly true, right? And, you know, and working with him, I actually found it was fascinating because, you know, I've worked at other companies, other tech companies. too. And there's one thing that was always different to me about Facebook than every other one, which was the CEO of Facebook actually tried to understand the people that were using

the product. And this is where I think it's kind of frustrating to see how, you know, the various steps within the company will lead to a total loss in translation of what Zuckerberg does. because it's, you know, it's kind of unfortunate that that's the case in my view. But I genuinely think from, at least from what I've seen, and again, take it with a grain of salt because I practically grew up there, right? They hired me and they fed me and they washed my clothes and they did all my things. Right. So like my perspective is one of like this excited teenager who during the company, you know, whatever.

But in my interactions with him, he genuinely wanted to understand how I used Snapchat. for example, and how me and my friends used it. And, you know, we would talk about doing that all the time. Like, how did it work? And personally, I loved trying to explain how my demographic use products. And I would do these talks within the company that I just decided to set up myself. I was like, you know what, I'm just going to do a talk at the company to explain myself. You know, the misunderstood teenager that just wants to be understood, right?

I like, you told me once that, you know, you went to orientation and they're like everybody's idea. are appreciated here. And you said, okay, I buy into that and started, like, putting together page six. Literally, literally. I think that's the craziest thing. It's like, people go to these companies and you think, oh, you know, the Kool-Aid, oh, the posters, the company is just trying to appeal, whatever. And, you know, my, you know, I don't know if you call it me being naive or what.

I looked at the posters and I saw, I saw them saying you can do whatever you want. You know, you can be whoever you want. and you can pitch whatever you want and we will listen to you. And so I thought, well, okay. So I just started, you know, so I just decided I'm going to do a talk. And so I started doing talks within the company, inviting other people, writing notes, doing these things, trying to just explain my perspective and being like, you know, you know, like every other teenager, like you don't understand me, mom, like that basically me

with the company, right? Yeah. And it was fascinating. You know, thousands of people tuning into the talks that I would do within the company talking about how I use Snapchat and how these products were different from Facebook and Instagram. And yeah, you pushed them towards stories, right? Yeah. So I think the biggest thing for me was I felt like when I was going to join Facebook,

I felt like I was going to enter this company in a state of panic. I thought I was going to enter this company and they were all going to be panicking about what to do because nobody in my generation was using Facebook and Instagram, we were posting like once a month. And I remember walking in there and actually seeing everyone totally relaxed and saying, oh, well, we have so many more users in Snapchat. Like, nothing's ever going to, you know, affect us. Like, we're unstoppable.

And I was like, what, what is this culture? Like, that doesn't make any sense. You know, and so I started doing the talks in part because of that. I wanted to change that. I thought it was, you know, I thought it was ridiculous that the company would feel like there was no threat coming. And as I started explaining and all of that, I remember I. unfriended every single one of my coworkers on Facebook and I refreshed my newsfeed and it was

empty. I'd actually reached the end of newsfeed at that point in time. And I took a screenshot of it. I had five ads and it was the end of the newsfeed. It said, sorry, there's no more post to show right now. And I took a screenshot of all this and I posted it within the company and said, hey, look, this is my newsfeed right now. I have nothing. I've unfriended all of you. the only people that I have left on my Facebook are only people my age. And the news feed was empty when I only had people my age on it. And I think that really was the beginning for me to realize that I could actually make some change within the company. I could actually impact it.

And so I just started from there. And I went on and I started showing Instagram. I took screenshots. I asked my friends to take screenshots of their phones, home screens. And if they could send them to me. So I could show at what position on the home screen. screen is Facebook and Instagram versus Snapchat. And then every single phone, Snapchat at the front, Instagram in some folder and Facebook delete it. All right? And so I think I think it was it was

kind of me going through that process that as I started to to do this, you know, Chris Cox, Zuckerberg, you know, KX and a few of the others within the company started to take note of the work that I was doing. And that's my, a little bit of my concern is like I do think they're now paranoid. Yeah, and they do really see the competition. And I wonder if that pushes them in the name of sustaining the company to end up taking decisions that have compromised the integrity of, you know, I don't know, the experience or the might potentially do harm. I frankly think it's the opposite. I think, I do think it's true that they do feel that pressure now more than ever. But I think it's it, you know, they see it because other products, frankly, are just

more lightweight, you know, I think you look at TikTok's feed, it's lightweight. Do I feel like shit on your TikTok? I don't feel like shit on TikTok, you know? So, you know, I think like, you look at that and I think they understand it too. I think they see it. I think most people,

that's kind of where you see the growth happening in other platforms. Right. Talk a little bit about how like you would correct Zuckerberg on his Snapchat usage. Well, you know, for example, when, when, when, But when Facebook was launching stories, I remember sometimes he would make some posts. And I was like trying to like, I don't know, I took it upon myself to try and like educate him a little bit on how to do the types of posts that were the right posts or not the right posts.

And it was fun. I honestly, it was always fun because he would, you know, respond with his reasoning for how he would do a post. I'd be like, hey, like, maybe mute that post. Like, if you're not going to say anything in it, like, you just have audio in it. It's weird. Like, it just looks a little awkward. And he'd be like, how so, you know? I do think that's one of the really interesting things about Zuckerberg is that he is definitely, like, willing to learn.

Yeah, like, what other, you know, what other CEO out there is going to grab a random person who just going to come through? Right. Yeah, just an 18 year old and be like, can you teach me how to use what you use? Like, it's fascinating. Like you can't have a company like the one that you have with Facebook without a CEO that has that kind of mindset. Yeah, I wrote about this a little bit and always day one. And I don't know if we've spoken. I'm sure we have.

But I did go up to, you know, I got a chance to spend some time with Zuckerberg for the book. And I was like, all right, Mark, what happened with you with Michael Saman? And, you know, he confirmed everything you said. So that was interesting. He's like, yeah. He showed me the ropes on Snapchat, which was interesting. And then there is this funny moment in the book where I was like, you know, well, does that mean you're a Snapchat user? He's like, well, I use everything.

I use Instagram. I was like, but Mark, Snapchat. He goes, yeah, I use Snapchat. He goes, I use everything that we could beat with. And he said that when Facebook was thinking about building Facebook dating, he downloaded the dating apps. Yes, yes, yes. And one day he sort of. I guess he got excited about the UI of one of these dating apps and, you know, it's like presenting a single match a day and saying, do you like this person? Do you not? And first of all, I was like, Mark, are you for using your own photo for this? He goes, yes. That would have been like great stories. But anyway. And he goes, all right, he's like this app. So one day he brings it to Priscilla and he goes, check out this app. And Priscilla looks at the person they suggested to Mark. And she goes, I'm meeting that woman for dinner tomorrow.

So anyway, I don't know whether Mark was. No, no, I mean, that's, that's how he is. That's how he is. A typical Zuckabryk. That's how he is. And frankly, you know, that's the type of thing where it's like, that quirkiness or whatever you want to call it, it's, it's funny. It's fun. Yeah.

I had a lot of, a lot of fun. I remember I would use my hoverboard around the campus in the office. It was an open floor plan, right? So I thought, okay, I can bring a hoverboard and wheel around. I remember falling on my face. And, you know, it was pretty bad. Right in front of Zuckerberg's, what do you call it, glass fishbowl, right? I remember them looking around, like, seeing what had happened because I heard someone

fought. I got right back up. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm just going to pretend nothing happened. I'm just going to walk away. And obviously, like, security was telling me, like, don't use your hoverboard. But I did it anyway. I did it.

Right. I did my own thing. Wow. Well, Michael, I appreciate you. coming by and sharing all these perspectives, you know, both stories from your book, stories we've talked about in the past, and then, of course, how Facebook's going to weather this moment. So folks, you heard it here first. Instagram Kids isn't really dead. It just might transform and find some other way to make its way to life. The book is App Kid. It's available

in stores. Now I suggest you pick it up. Michael's a good guy. It's always fun talking with you, Michael. Thanks so much. It was a lot of fun talking about it. Always fun. Thank you, Nick Gwattany for mastering the audio. Thank you, Red Circle, for hosting the podcast and selling the ads. And thanks to all of you, the listeners. Appreciate you having here. Appreciate having you here. Every week, we do these every Wednesday. So I invite you if this is your first time to subscribe, if you're a repeat listener and feel the urge. A rating goes a long way. So open that app up and tap some stars. And we'd appreciate that. Unless you have negative feedback, then just email it to me and we'll talk. Big Technology Podcast at gmail.com. Well, that will do it for us here this week. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week with another Big Technology podcast.

Until then, take care.