Big Technology Podcast - Xi Visits San Francisco, Microsoft’s Big AI Event, Bin Laden on TikTok

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Reed Albergotti is the tech editor at Semafor. He joins Big Technology Podcast to break down the week's news. We cover: 1) Xi Jinping’s visit to San Francisco 2) Why the U.S. And China relationship is softening 3) How AI technology is at the center of the thawing 4) How San Francisco cleaned itself up for Xi’s arrival 5) Sideshows 6) Web Summit update 7) Conversation with Chinese media 8) Stability AI audio chief leaves over copyright issues 9) Microsoft’s underwhelming Ignite event 10) Time to be concerned about Google’s Gemini? 11) Github co-pilot is profitable 12) Bin Laden surging on TikTok ---- You can subscribe to Big Technology Premium for 25% off at https://bit.ly/bigtechnology Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Questions? Feedback? Write to: [e-mail]

Jishen Ping Visit San Francisco, the latest of Microsoft's new AI announcements, GitHub co-pilot. What's the story with that? Plus, what exactly is going on with Osama bin Laden and TikTok? All that and more coming up right after this. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have a big show for you today talking all about Jijan Ping's visit to San Francisco and then plenty of AI news and wrapping it up with some coverage of the latest. social media blowups, shall we say. Joining us today, again, is Reid Albergadhi, the technology editor at Semaphore.

It's great to have you back, Reed. Welcome to the show. It's fun to be here. Thanks for having me. I can't believe we were talking. The last time we were talking was the beginning of this Israel-Hamas war. And I don't know, it feels like it's been going on forever now. We're like six weeks in.

But why don't we start with another potential conflict that's been brewing, which was U.S. and China, right? There's all this tough talk going on between the two countries. next thing you know is jing jim ping uh shows up in san francisco and it's all love right it seems like that's what happened this week in his meeting with joe biden don't you think oh yeah i mean it's really kind of bizarre i i honestly don't know what to make of it i mean all of a sudden you know it was like no one would touch china and then all of a sudden you know she's in town in san francisco and everything is different you know we're we're in the same room we're all i was actually at the

semiconductor industry association awards dinner last night. And the Medtronic CEO said, you know, oh, I've seen him before, but I've never seen him so relaxed. And I just didn't, I just didn't know what to make about it. It seems like it's now kind of okay to be cozying up to China again. And yet at the same time, if you look at the geopolitical situation, it seems like we're just inching closer and closer toward some kind of conflict around Taiwan. So pretty fascinating. Yeah. I do wonder if people, like, kind of took a look around, right? We started just talking about the war and they saw war in Israel and Gaza, war in Ukraine and sort of asked, wait a second, like all this talk can go somewhere.

Do we really want it to go somewhere? And what are the real differences? I mean, obviously, there are major differences between the countries. But, like, is it enough to get into a massive global conflict? I wonder if that's sort of what led to this moment. Well, I'm sure everyone in the U.S. wants to avoid a conflict, right? Nobody wants to see a war with China over Taiwan, right? It's going to be extremely deadly.

It's going to be horribly disruptive to the global economy, especially if, you know, anything happens to TSM, which I'm sure you talked about on your show before. But I think the question is like, what is China want? Because like their rhetoric has been, you know, very, very clear for years. we are going to forcibly reunite Taiwan with China. And I think, you know, we may not have a choice, right? So I think there's a danger in sort of in a kind of like wishful thinking about China and thinking that just one visit can sort of change the entire course of that of that trajectory.

Let's see what happens to their to their rhetoric now, right? Like, do they start going back and changing the messaging back at home? So I think it's important to run through. I think that's a great point. And I also think it's important to run through some of the things that were accomplished this week. And then we can kind of get to why this is happening now. So first of all, Biden spoke and said that the meeting was some of the most constructive and productive discussions he's had with Xi Jinping and that they're going to keep the line

of communications open. He's going to be willing to pick up the phone. Also, big news that Xi signaled that China would send new pandas to the U.S. after three that the Smithsonian National Zoo in Washington had were returned earlier this month. This is from the AP. So the pandas coming back. That's symbolic, but it's big. Also, in a speech, Xi said he wants to deepen the friendly ties between our two people.

And another massive one, Xi also agreed to help curb the production of illicit fentanyl. That's a deadly component in drugs sold in the United States. It's very interesting that he could effectively decide that the amount of fentanyl coming into the U.S. is going to be reduced. I didn't realize China had that much sway over the components used to make this drug. But clearly, that was a big deal. They also reached a very important agreement to resume military-to-military communications and a scoop for you. The two countries are going to open a channel to talk about AI, similar to the Cold War non-proliferation talks. this is a huge amount of cooperation, a very big turn for the U.S. and China, what's leading to it, right? And this is where it gets kind of interesting. So apparently Xi needed two things from the U.S. He needed investment from the U.S. to help jumpstart the Chinese economy, which has not been growing at the same rates. It had been during the heyday, you know, a few years ago. But then there was another very interesting thing that the New York Times pointed out. And it's that

that the United States has recently put in a series of export controls that have at least temporarily crimped Beijing's ability to make the most advanced semiconductors and the artificial intelligence breakthroughs they enable. Now, I'm not going to say that AI is the core of why China and the U.S. are all of a sudden buddy, buddy, but it would be naive to think it didn't play a significant role in trying to find some common ground, right? Yeah, I mean, I think what you're kind of saying, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, is like China's on their heels right now. Yes. They are in a vulnerable position.

And so, you know, when you're in a vulnerable, vulnerable position, you sort of come to the table and you play nice. I think the question is, what's the long-term plan for China, right? I mean, in the short term, sure. I mean, they can send us pandas. I thought it was sort of funny that, you know, she's quote on the pandas. He's like, I heard that a lot of people in the United States, especially children, are very sad when the pandas were leaving the you know the zoo in dc i mean it's a gold quote it's so it's like are we do we really believe this guy is like a sentimental sweetheart who i mean the guy i mean

if you're a china scholar like just read read about the stuff that happens there right it's it's a pretty brutal place um inside that party so you know i i'm just i'm just very i mean i again like I want peace as much as anybody. I don't want to see a, I do not want to see a war. I think it would be a terrible, terrible thing. But at the same time, like, you know, I'm a little skeptical here that this is like, you know, a huge about face in the long run. The thing about artificial intelligence that I find fascinating is that we for so long

thought that China kind of had the U.S. over a barrel in terms of chip production. and now they need the United States to ease controls in order for them to stay relevant. And they realize that AI is going to be so important. So what do you think about that? It's a very quick flip from U.S. trailing to U.S. leadership position, don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I think on the chip production, I mean, I think they will get there.

It's just a matter of time. And, you know, I think the U.S., there's a, there's, a race right now right which is like can the u.s with the chips act diversify the chip production supply chain to an extent that that tsmc doesn't matter as much right that it can be that that's a huge if right i mean we're talking about i mean that's five to seven years out at the earliest i think from happening which means it's totally unpredictable right like you know this this stuff is if you've read anything about this industry you know just how absolutely tricky it is to build these fabs to spin this stuff up so i mean there i think there might be like a sort of buying time aspect to this right

which is like you know if if we if if they can get us to take the the foot off the gas then maybe that gives them more time to to build to get their independence you know up and running before some conflict. So I just see this. That's how kind of I see the world here. But I'm not, you know, I'm a tech reporter. So, you know, I only play an international relations expert on podcasts. Right. But actually, like the tech does play a huge role in the international relations thing. That's what's, that's what I find fascinating. It's like you can find tech, because it is obviously like building the future, you can find it at the core of almost every industry and government relations. So it just gives you this window.

into the world, like really on the business level that you can't have elsewhere. And business is obviously what's going to drive some of these countries in terms of their decisions. So you were in San Francisco. A couple questions for you about San Francisco. First of all, what do you make of the fact that all these business leaders went to dinner with Xi? Obviously, you seem pretty skeptical about his good intentions. Do you think something good is going to come out of that? Or do you think they needed to? I was actually, let me just say this. I was trying to read the mood in the room from some of the video clips that I saw. And it seemed like almost dutiful as opposed to celebratory. Oh, totally. I mean, first of all, they pay to be there, right?

I mean, this is like, China is a giant gold mine for everyone. There's an anecdote I'll tell you that I thought was really telling me. Louise Metzakis, who is the reporter who got us our great scoop on the China sheet meeting earlier this week, along with Morgan Chalfant. Louise is a huge China buff and knows more about this than a lot of people. So we write a lot about China, right? And I think, you know, this is this fascinating area that's super important to the world and all this stuff. And I'm thinking people in tech must just be eating this stuff up, right? So right around the time we launched, I was meeting with someone who shall not be named.

They were like, yeah, like my feedback to the newsletters, I'm not really that into the China stuff. And I was like, really, like, why not? Because this is a person who, like, is involved in this, has been, like, involved with, you know, tech and China. And they said, well, you know, it's all closed off right now. And I'm like, well, yeah, but I mean, it's still hugely important to the, you know, to the geopolitical realities. And he was like, yeah, but there's, like, no money to be made there right now. And I was like, oh, okay. So China, like, I think, what my point is, I think all of these CEOs, for the most part, is they just view. China as a giant pot of money. And they want that money and they will do what they can do

to get that money. And I think some of them might be more patriotic than others. Some of them probably don't care at all about the U.S.'s position and in the long run and all that stuff. They just care, you know, they care about shareholders. And that's how I see all of this. It's like, you know, if you don't go to that dinner, you're kind of being like, you're kind of like neglecting your shareholders. That's how I see it. Exactly. Yeah. And so the mood definitely kind of felt like we're here just to be here, which is like wild to me.

Yeah. We're here to make possibly, you know, if this is going to be, if this is going to open up again, we better be first in line, you know. You know, who did look happy. She looked happy when they gave him some Golden State Warrior jersey. Did you see this? Never seen a smile like that from this person. Sports is the answer. It can bring people together.

Look what it did. Yeah, you know, our first contact with North Korea was sending Dennis Rodman over there with fights. That's right. Remember all the first contact in a long time? Remember all the NBA Hong Kong controversy, though? Oh, yeah. It's so ironic. So let me ask you, so did the city feel cleaner?

Because there's been this whole meme that San Francisco. go finally cleaned up its act for G. Is that accurate? It just depended on what neighborhood you were in, honestly. I went downtown and I was kind of like looking, you know, looking around like, okay, what's, what's it going to be like, you know, is it going to be like a, all of a sudden it's like this sparkling, clean paradise? And it was like, yeah, in parts of Market Street where there used to be a lot of homeless people, there weren't homeless people, but they had really just been moved to the tenderloin. It still smelled like pot, uh, smoke, you know, on Market Street. But then there were like, you know, like black SUVs and Mercedes Sprinter vans. But it looked, the whole thing

looked like a Mercedes Sprinter van dealership. Like that's what, my goodness. That's what it looks like. And then there were these weird cages thing, these cage things that were up. And I don't even know what they were for. And I, I didn't Google it because I think it's more fun to just think of them as mysterious cages with like those concrete divider things from the highway like in the middle of the cages and I had no idea what they were for and I had this like thought I was like I'm like do I like this better than like you know crazy people wandering from the street yelling at me I'm not sure like it's a toss up yeah I mean if that's the trade off then it's a pretty rough choice right so I don't know it's uh I wouldn't say they I wouldn't say they turned San Francisco into a

into a paradise by any means there was a quote from gavin newsome that got passed around a little bit this this week and i feel like it's worth reciting california governor gavinusum he said i know folks say oh they're just cleaning up the place because all these fancy leaders are coming to town that's true because it's true but it's also true that for months and months and months prior to apex we've been having different conversations i mean i think the thing that really just kind of jumped doubt on me is like if they want to do something about cleaning up the city they can't and just they didn't until this happened it's bananas to me it's totally bananas i mean it's not a permanent solution um i you know i think also just on the san francisco topic generally speaking i mean

it's it's it's like bad but not as bad as people kind of think it is right it's it's very localized to to a couple of neighborhoods that are you know that are really bad specifically the tenderloin. You can go to parts of the city and have no idea that there's a homeless problem, which I think is similar in, you know, cities all around the country, right? There's, there are just neighborhoods that are bad. Not, not excusing any of it. It still needs to be dealt with, but. My wife and I were out in San Francisco this summer for about a month, three weeks a month. And I have to say the city actually feels revived after, you know, I left mid-COVID. And it feels lively and the downtown was bustling again.

And it did feel like, you know, a lot of the rumors had been overdone. Obviously still a problem with crime there. But, I mean, I just saw this video of this guy who tried to stop a sideshow in Oakland. It was basically beaten within like an inch of his life. It was crazy. But yeah, I think you're right that overall, you know, the New York post headlines about San Francisco are a little bit over up. Yeah. In Oakland is a different, that is a different story.

too. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, different issues. Although we used to have side shows down the block. For those who don't know what a side show is, it's when a bunch of guys close off like a intersection and then just do donuts in the middle of the intersection. Yeah, or like right on top of, like, get out of the car that they're driving and like sit on the hood and stuff like that. It's very dangerous. But also it sounds like I've never been to one, but it sounds kind of fun. I don't know. I would like to go to one as an observer, very distant. And they're like high up, right? Like up on a balcony or something. Exactly.

Not in the line of fire. And I guess I imagine it'd be kind of annoyed if it happened outside my house all the time. But luckily that's not the case. So I did go to Web Summit this year. I just came back from Lisbon last night. I had a good time. We spoke on this podcast with Ron John about the decision to go after some of the comments that Patty made. And even though I didn't agree with everything Patty said, I thought, you know what?

I'm not going to agree with everything, but I'm still going to go. And when I was there, I felt vindicated about my decision to go because I do feel like one of the problems that we've had in society is that people with different opinions sort of ensconce each other, ensconce themselves in different areas of the world, whether that's geographically, whether it's different websites or whether it's different events. And it's important to have people with different perspectives in rooms talking together because that's when you sort of have empathy and get things done. And anyway, that's my Web Summit perspective.

The most interesting interaction I had was on the ride to the airport. I was with a member of the Chinese media. And we got a moment to just sit and talk about, hey, your guy's hanging out with my guy. And what do you think about that? So I, like, obviously just went through the whole gamut of hot-bun topics and some very interesting questions. Some very, sorry, some very interesting observations this person shared. first of all, some, this person said that the way that the U.S. is viewed in China has become more negative, in part because of the way that the U.S. handled COVID. And it's almost as if the U.S.

has been held up as a foil to China on the COVID issue because they want to say that they did it better and that their experience inside COVID was worth it. That was one interesting takeaway. Quickly, the others, I asked about the Russia, you crane war and the Israel Gaza war and this person said that China was neutral on both and China actually felt a historical bond with Russia because of the way that Russia and China have been allies in the past. The other thing we talked about was the iPhone. So you know there's this whole meme about Chinese government employees not being able to use the iPhone in the office. And this person said that that's wrong. They were using an iPhone and that the iPhone remains quite popular in China,

even in this moment of tech being used as a point of national pride in China. Lastly, this person was surprised that we've banned Xiaomi and Huawei phones. And I'm like, listen, I can't use those phones. And they suggest that I get one and just use it without cell service, which is actually kind of interesting. Maybe it's worth getting one and trying the we chat. and actually seeing how these things function. It's pretty illuminating. I know I just threw a lot at you. What do you think about that?

I mean, I think my first question is like, do you think that you were getting candid answers or are they, yeah, they're like the party line answers, right? Yeah, definitely. But it's still interesting. You can learn something from that, though. I mean, it's like, yes, in the, in the, even in the direction that the propaganda is going, you can be like, oh, but sorry, go ahead.

No, I mean, I think that's, no, you may, you've answered my question. I think that's a good it's a good point um yeah I mean I think on the the Huawei thing which is the you know the sort of interesting tech question I am actually really curious to try that too because they have the new phones if I'm if I'm right they have their new chips right they built their like homegrown chips from like a modem from you know built by smick right isn't that am I right apparently these chips were so good that they had U.S. officials convinced that they had stolen U.S. trade secrets and this Huawei Mate 60 phone is apparently just flying off of shelves in China. It's the latest

version. It's sold out like immediately when it first released. And I mean, you look at Apple sales in the region and they've fallen and people are saying that it's in the, it's in the path of being replaced. So, you know, what does that tell you about the earlier question? around is China going to catch up with us on chips? I mean, if they're able to do, I mean, these are the most advanced, you know, phone chips are really the most advanced chips, right? So I think that answers the question. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think they're pretty close. I don't think, I mean, I thought they were still not quite hitting the same benchmarks, right? as like Qualcomm and and you know the Apple chips right I mean I'm sort of yeah they're not quite on par but I think I think you're right like we should be as tech reporters like we should be trying this stuff out I mean I don't think it's illegal to do right like it just definitely not you know we should just get these things and you know see how see how they work compare them

and it's also a new operating system right it's not it's like an Android fork or something or oh is that true or did they build it like from the ground up i mean because they can't use they also can't google they can't use android yeah they can't google can't export either so um so it's kind of that would be kind of interesting too what is an operating system like a third it does feel like we should let them use android like we're so worried about tic tac over here but we won't export an operating system why like i don't know i mean i think yeah, I think they were just trying to completely cripple them, right? That's not working.

I guess it's not, yeah, I mean, at least not in China. They seem to have been able to survive. And by the way, I mean, I'm sure they are using like some IP from the US, right? And there's just no way, like somewhere in there. You know, I've been trying to copy this stuff for years, for decades. Fascinating moment between U.S. and China. Long story short. It is.

It is. And you wanted to get to the TikTok question too, right? Which is in... Yeah. Which we'll talk about TikTok and bin Laden. But first, let's do a quick segment on some of these big headlines in AI because I do think they're very interesting. One of the most under the radar moments in tech this week was the head of audio at stability and AI quit because the company view that it's acceptable to use copyrighted work without permission. and this person, Ed Newton, Rex, just said, no freaking way.

He called it exploitative. He said it's not acceptable. It's not fair use. And he just straight up quit the company, one of the senior people there. I'm curious if you followed this story, read it. It just seems to me like the AI copyright wars are just starting to kick off. Like we're just starting to see lawsuits being prepared, people quitting. The fact that these generative models train on so much copyrighted content, like it's got to come to ahead at some point.

don't you think? Yeah, I have followed it. I actually have a lot of thoughts on this. I mean, one is I saw him talk at Eric Newcomer's event on, what was it, Wednesday. I think that was the day he had announced that he had announced that he had left stability. And my thought on his sort of, I think it's fine to take a moral stand. And I, you know, I totally respect that. I don't really know whether his legal arguments about fair use, you know, will hold up in court. I mean, I thought I actually was sort of reading his statement thinking, I wish you had just left out this fair use discussion and just said, I don't think it's right. Like, I think people deserve to be compensated. I mean, that was the compelling part of the argument to me. Because I don't,

I think legally, they probably are fine to use this stuff. It's very, I think, I think that's how the courts are going to come down because copyright is supposed to stop you know you from from actually making copies of people's work and you know completely but this is like you're using their work to inform an algorithm that will then make original work and that's very similar to like how everybody operates right how you and i operate where we we are inspired by everything that we see read here. So I sort of, you know, I, that's one thought. The other thought is on whether it's right or wrong, I think that's going to become sort of a moot point in the future. Because as I've been sort of digging into this technology, like it seems to me that synthetic data is kind of

the future. Like the models that are going to be used are going to be using synthetic data to to do to train interesting so that's like data that's been generated by AI and then they just train on that yes exactly wow the other the other observation I've made is that there are a bunch of companies that used to do you know sort of structured data um where they're they've the ones where they're hiring people in like the Philippines or India to do labeling and things like that what they're now doing is creating unstructured data as far as I can tell, where they're just asking people, they're paying people good money, really, like up to $100 an hour, I think, I've heard, to basically just create data.

What? And this, like, runs the gamut from math, like, people who are, like, math PhDs, right? You know, doing complex math problems or, I mean, you know, I don't know, some of this I want to write about, so I want to be a little bit like. Yeah, this is fascinating, read. I think it's totally fascinating. So it's actually a lot cheaper and even better to just create your data from scratch. The other thing is you could buy,

I mean, the amount of money these companies are spending on training these data sets, they could literally just buy entire publishing houses. I mean, you don't, it's really just ultimately not going to be that much of an issue in the future, I think. So those are sort of my two thoughts. So this week, Microsoft also had an event where it basically made it a bunch of announcements.

It was called Ignite. It seemed like Microsoft had an event like this every other day for the past few months. I kind of found it to be a little bit of a snooze. I'm curious what you thought. Was there any actual interesting news there? I mean, they changed the name of Bing Chat to co-pilot. But other than that, oh, and they also announced they're going to make their own chip. But obviously, they had Jensen Wong on stage from NVIDIA, so it didn't seem like it's a earth-shattering chip effort if their number one competitor on that front is going to show up to the event. What was your takeaway? The chip thing I want to dig into more, I think the most interesting thing they announced in my mind was some of the focus group data that they've gotten. And granted, this is all Microsoft trying to promote their own products.

So you have to take it with a grant salt. But I talked with Jared Spittaro, who's working on all the workspace stuff for them. He kind of like walked me through what they did. And basically they got these people to come in for these focus groups and do tasks with co-pilot and without co-pilot to see if they were faster and more efficient. And to me, that's how you actually want to test these products out. because if you just ask people, like, do you use, you know, AI in your job or whatever? People are like, yeah, totally. And I love it.

It's great because everybody wants to sound like they're like on the cutting edge. Like, are they actually, like, is this actually changing how people work? And they say, you know, it is. Like, it's, you know, it actually makes your life easier, your job go faster. That, to me, was like the most telling things. It's because, like, people are using this stuff now and they have data. What I'm annoyed about is that I haven't gotten to use it. I mean, they aren't, they aren't like handing out, you know, they aren't like letting

journalists in to kind of try this stuff out, which makes me sort of wonder if, you know, where are we in the development phase? Are they, you know, at the place where they're really proud of this stuff? Or are they just more like promoting it and it's on its way? I just want to see if it, you know, can it like check my emails for me? because that would be a game changer. Yeah, Reed, from your understanding, what are some of the things

that this Microsoft co-pilot can do for people that's made them more productive? Well, they said that it was, you know, things like writing emails and drafting, you know, drafting stuff like that. I mean, the writing stuff to me is less compelling because we've kind of all seen that use case, just using chat GPT.

But to me, what is really, what would be really interesting is where you can start just using natural language to do things across different apps in real time. So, like, for instance, I have a spreadsheet where I keep, like, contacts and I categorize them so I know, like, who to call on what different, you know, topic of story I'm reporting on, you know, but the pain is, like, I talk to somebody and then I have to go put them in my contacts and then put them in the spreadsheet.

Like, can I just say? hey, hey, like, I talk to this person, you know, add them to my contacts list in the spreadsheet and make, and put them in my contacts, right? That would save me like, you know, it only takes whatever, five minutes, but like, you know, oftentimes I'm rushing and I don't have five minutes, so I don't do it. Or even better, like, who have I spoken with on AI in China that might be worth calling for this new story? Right. I mean, that's the, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's like the next step, right? And, I asked them, when I went to the Microsoft event back in, it was like late summer in New York,

I asked one of the product managers about this. And I was like, can it do this? Can it do that? And they basically said, I don't know. I'm not sure if they can do that. And I was like, well, that's really interesting because in the past, the way you develop products is you, you know, you have to code every single feature, right? Like everything is like a button or a menu. And now, as they introduce

Gen. They don't really know what their products are capable of. And they have to just kind of test it out. So my guess is that's the hesitancy. Like they're just afraid, right? Like what, like, is somebody going to, is Microsoft, is Excel going to like tell you to leave your wife? I mean, that's, I think that's what they're worried about.

Well, it has all your data. So if Excel tells you, maybe you should. You should just do it. Speaking of full. Fear. Google is also in this AI race and has been hamstrung by a lot of fear. It has this new model that it's basically betting the farm on called Gemini. And there was a news story this week that the company had anticipated that it was going to roll it out in November, which is this month. And now it's telling people to expect it in Q1. Is it time to be concerned about like Google's

ability to ship this stuff? What do you think's happening there? I don't know, honestly. That's interesting question um i don't know if i would i don't know if i would say i'm worried i mean i think we're still so early in all of this stuff that i don't i really think there's like we have no idea who's ultimately going to win um i think google's like you know they're really good to be in the game yeah you do have to ship they're really good on the infrastructure side so i doubt that it's like some infrastructure problem you know it's it could be maybe it's maybe it's something else Maybe it's not, it's not working well. But I think, you know, they'll figure out.

I mean, they're, like, they invented a lot of this stuff, right? I mean, that's the, that's the irony of Google being so behind. It's like, their researchers are the ones who've really, who've really pioneered this. But, you know, it'll be, I think, I think we'll see, like, a big, it's going to be a big race between, like, Amazon, Google and Microsoft on the, on the infrastructure. side. One last thing to hit on AI. You spoke with the CEO of GitHub and asked a great question straight up, are you making money on this?

Is the cost that you're paying to run the models less than the amount that you're charging to get people to use it, people who are coding and using GitHub to program alongside them? You're actually making money off of this or is this a lost leader? And you found out that it's profitable. It's pretty fascinating. Great question, by the way. Thank you.

Yeah. Well, there had been a bunch of questions about that. And yeah, I mean, I think that is like ultimately that is one of these underlying infrastructure questions, right? These things cost, you know, they take, they take GPUs just to run inference on these things. And data centers don't, don't really have GPUs. So they have to, there's all these capital expenditures on developing these data centers to run all these AI models that we all love. And, you know, the, I I think what they're doing to make money on this is they're finding these ingenious ways of routing all of our prompts to the smallest possible, the most efficient possible model. And then only using the big models like GPT4 when they really need to. And I think that actually says a lot about where the technology is headed, right? like that you you know yeah you don't really mean these giant models right yeah that was part of my so I did this six this presentation at web summit six bold predictions about the future of AI and like smack in the middle there was we're moving to smaller models from big models and efficiency is a huge

part of it yeah it's true on the other hand you know what happens is when the models get bigger then you learn stuff that allows you to make these small models better. So I think there's always going to be this push to build these bigger models. And then eventually, you know, I don't know what it's going to take, nuclear power plants next to data centers or something. But eventually we can just run big models as much as we want for everything. And that's when I think it will get really interesting. We just need a room temperature superconductor.

It won't be in business for that. Yeah, that's one way. You know, another way is nuclear fusion. Nuclear. Another way is quantum computing. You know, there's a few options, few science fiction options. Okay, let's take a quick break and come back for a very brief segment, but an important one, talking about I don't even know what to label it, the rise of Osama bin Laden on TikTok. Yeah, let's just call it that.

All right, back right after this. Hey, everyone. Let me tell you about the Hustle Daily Show, a podcast filled with business, tech news, and original stories to keep you in the loop on what's trending. More than 2 million professionals read The Hustle's daily email for its irreverent and informative takes on business and tech news. Now, they have a daily podcast called The Hustle Daily Show where their team of writers break down the biggest business headlines

in 15 minutes or less and explain why you should care about them. So, search for The Hustle Daily Show and your favorite podcast app, like the one you're using right now. And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Rita Albergati. He's the tech editor at Semaphore. You can find the work at Semaphore.com. So, Reed, did you see that Osama bin Laden was the biggest TikTok star in the universe this week? Or at least that's what it looked like according to some reports.

So just to set the table here, it seems like a lot of people on the left have been sort of, I don't even know how to put this, re-evaluating their relationship with. with jihad and uh started to read osama bin laden's letter to america which justified the september 11th attack and and now they're starting to say that they like this letter and it's interesting because it's not it was not a massive ticot trend it was like a few people got some attention for doing it and it became a meme a few people they got headlines and other people read it and they got headlines and then all the press picked it up and they said look what's becoming the left. It's obviously not indicative of the full political movement,

but it is indicative of, I guess, what's happening on the extremes. What's been your read of this whole episode? Well, I think I agree with everything you said. That is what happened. It's a small group of people and they're, you know, saying some stuff that's outlandish and crazy. I just think my reaction is to go back and look at like what has been happening since 2016, which is mainly, you know, the media or the left, whatever, calling out probably a maybe a larger group, but probably actually a very small percentage-wise group of people on the right saying crazy stuff online and sort of extrapolating from there, you know, the impact of that or what that means about the right and all this stuff. And I think now that it's happening the

other way around and it's the right, it's the New York Post, you know, calling out a few misguided kids on TikTok who are sympathizing with Bin Laden. I think we should all take a step back and we should look at how we treat online discourse and think critically about that. Do we really need to freak out and draw a ton of media attention to the fringes of the internet?

I mean, to me, this always existed. Like, before the internet, there were, you know, there were pamphlets. or there were things you'd see even in the grocery store aisles that were just insane. And you didn't have like front page headlines about this crazy guy over here, you know, on the street corner, right, was saying crazy stuff. And, you know, that's a big problem. It's like, you know, there's just always going to be crazy people saying crazy things.

And maybe we should just calm down about it, honestly. I mean, I think that's my takeaway. Yeah. Okay. So let me give, not the counter argument, but some context here after thinking about it. Yes, it was a tiny amount of people. But it's also just like this stuff, I don't know if this is true. I wonder if the political environment inside a movement allows for people to say things like this

and feel comfortable and feel like they're going to be applauded for it. You know what I'm saying? Like do these crazy things. like do the crazy things that show up on the right emerge because they feel like they are giving like the most essential or the thing that will be applauded on the right and do these things that we're seeing now on the left show up because they feel like they have a place of comfort in the left yeah I mean I don't know does that have a place of comfort I guess there were people supporting Hamas so maybe I mean I guess that's what you were referring to and

you said reevaluating their relationship with terrorism I mean maybe it does in certain circles, but I would say definitely not the majority, right? Yeah, that's right. People want to get people, you don't go on social media and make like salient points and get a lot of followers. So, you know, I think you sort of do have to be a little bit out there. So, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I guess that's what social media does, right? It just pushes you to the most extreme view.

and and you know now that we're talking it through i don't really think it's like indicative of the political environment it is just people being like they just keep getting driven to the extreme until somebody says wait a second right you know i know and it's like do you really it's like needlessly controversial right i think you know louise was making a good point about this which is like you know you can do that basically the stuff they liked in that letter was like things you would hear in your you know your international relations 101 class in college you know it's not like that's the part of the letter it's not like they're saying yeah and then we should blow up the world trade center they're just they're saying you know hidden in this you know terrorist letter is

a salient point about international relations okay fine i mean people did the same thing with ted kaczynski's you know manifesto right i mean i think and then you know you didn't even mention this but like there was the whole Elon Musk controversy, right, where he responded to this, to this thread. And, you know, I think it was really bad. But he wasn't, you know, it's not like he was actually saying, you know, I think Hitler was right, you know. That wasn't. Well, that was very interesting. Yeah, continue. I mean, that wasn't his point, right? So, but yet, but yet, because of the, the thread that he was responding to, you know, he, he, it's, I think it's like what he did, was bad, but the response to it has been to, like, take the absolute worst possible meaning

from it, which is like Elon Musk is a Nazi sympathizer, which I don't think is true. Yes, I'm here. So I think people just, you know, they see these things and they want to extrapolate more meaning from them than there actually is. And that's what the New York Post did with the bin Laden thing. They're like, well, you know, we know that there had been these marches where people seem to be sympathetic with Hamas. Now we're seeing a few people on TikTok talk about how they thought bin Laden made a good

point. And then you extrapolate this broader meaning, which is like, the left is supporting terrorism. Right. And it's just like, you know, but I guess my point is like, I think the left and the right do this. And we should all just stop. Well, you know, like we talked about when you came on the first time, the free speech flipperoo where it was like everybody would now point the other way like the right was now like

you know you can't you don't have a right to say this and it should be taken down and all that stuff after being so pro free speech for so long and in fact you have a story about it in semifor talking about how TikTok is aggressively removing videos promoting the bin Laden speech and even the guardian took down the letter the text of the letter right it is bizarre times but you're right like it's not maybe it's not something that's sort of inherent to left or right. It's just indicative of the time. And of course, like, it's a ridiculous way to live life and to try to have conversations

is to pick the biggest idiot on the other side and blow them up into somebody that symbolizes everything that they've done. Yeah. And of course, you know, by taking it down, you know, you're just all you're doing is making people, yeah, you're just making people want to, you know, to sort of like explore these ideas more,

you know yeah i mean i had that impulse i was like damn i wonder what that letter says now right totally yeah i haven't thought about bin laden in years but now i'm going to go read his propaganda i mean i don't know what are we doing people i don't know thank you so much for joining pleasure as always do you want to shout out where people can find your work and where they can read the semifort tech team's coverage yeah um you know we have a semifore tech newsletter and it's free uh so there's no reason not to subscribe um if you don't like it you can unsubscribe or better yet tell me um and you can follow me on x formerly twitter or threads i try to post there um or just send me an email and what did you shout your email out read at semifor.com okay i'm getting ready with the rest of big

technology nation to hammer you over your sympathetic to yeah i know ready for the hate now bring it bring it Send it over. Sorry, now I feel bad for making you shout out. Reid-Alvigotti. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. It's fun. Awesome as always.

All right, everybody, thank you for listening. We'll be back with the new show on Wednesday. I think we're going to talk about the war in Ukraine and the war in Israel and Gaza through the lens of the new technology that's being researched and developed and effectively deployed there. So that should be coming, just working to arrange the final details. And then, Ron John Roy should be back next Friday. All right. so much. Have a great weekend, and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.