BigDeal - #31 Tinder’s Founder on Being a Billionaire, Tinder’s #1 Mistake, and Problems With Modern Dating

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

🚀 Main Street Over Wall Street is where the real deals get done. Join top investors, founders, and operators for three days of powerful connection, sharp strategy, and big opportunities — live in Austin, Nov 2–4. https://contrarianthinking.biz/msows-bigdeal In this episode of The Big Deal Podcast, host Codie Sanchez sits down with Sean Rad, founder of Tinder, to explore his entrepreneurial journey, the evolution of Tinder, and how to build billion-dollar companies. Sean shares his insights on business challenges, the power of love and relationships, and his thoughts on today's dating culture. Tune in to hear his candid thoughts on what it takes to succeed in the fast-paced tech world, from product innovation to personal growth, and how to stay resilient in the face of failure. Want help scaling your business to $1M in monthly revenue? ⁠Click here⁠ to connect with my consulting team. Chapters 0:00 - START 1:45 - Sean reflects on the early days of building Tinder 6:10 - The power of love and camaraderie in business 8:25 - Lessons learned from scaling a billion-dollar company 13:40 - Taking risks: Why resilience is key to success 17:50 - Sean’s personal journey: From public scrutiny to stepping away from Tinder 21:00 - What it takes to build a multi-billion-dollar marketplace 26:30 - How dating apps transformed social interactions 32:45 - The double-opt-in innovation that changed online dating 38:10 - Sean’s thoughts on today's dating landscape and trends 45:20 - The power of vulnerability and authenticity in relationships 50:10 - Facing personal challenges: Sean’s public battles and return to Tinder 1:00:00 - How to lead a fast-growing team through tough times 1:10:20 - The importance of curiosity and asking the right questions 1:15:00 - Navigating the complexities of modern love 1:20:30 - How Sean balances personal and professional life 1:30:15 - Conclusion: Sean’s advice to young entrepreneurs Seller Financing Course Application: contrarianthinking.biz/sfn-bigdeal Register for Bizscout: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3XYT2zr Free newsletter: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3XWLlZp Biz buying course: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3NhjGgN Resibrands: https://resibrands.com/ CT capital: https://contrarianthinking.biz/4eRyGOk Main st hold co: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3YfGa8u MORE FROM BIGDEAL: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ OTHER THINGS WE DO: 🫂 ⁠Our community⁠ 📰 ⁠Free newsletter⁠ 🏦 ⁠Biz buying course⁠ 🏠 ⁠Resibrands⁠ 💰 ⁠CT Capital⁠ 🏙️ ⁠Main St Hold Co⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm very fortunate, very grateful for what I have and what I've achieved. But at the same time, I would give up so much of it just to go back to the early days of building Tinder. Because, like, yeah, the energy, the love, the camaraderie, that is the greatest high. And you could feel that if you're building a local coffee shop, it's all about love. It's like when you're flowing and doing something you love with people you love, there's no greater gift. And I do think we do a huge disservice for telling people these days that, But hey, unless you get Silicon Valley cash, unless you go VC back, unless you're on the cover of Forbes, you're not a success. Huge disservice.

Welcome back to The Big Deal. I'm Cody Sanchez. And this podcast is for those of you looking to not just get rich but free and do what it actually takes to get there. Okay, today's episode, amazing. Sean Rad, a guy who I've started to become real friends with, the founder of Tinder. He's been off of the Internet for years now. But came back on for this episode. We've been talking lately about a few things that I think you're going to love, not just how do you build a multi, multi-billion dollar marketplace that forever changes dating in this country and around the world, but also how do you, as a young entrepreneur today, apply the lessons that he used to build whatever you're doing?

We talk also about some of the things happening in America and what his thoughts are on them. I don't think he's ever shared that before. And also, we finish up talking a little bit about dating. If you are looking for that special someone in your life, if it's hard out there right now, why not listen to a dude who has, I don't know, helped 50 million-plus relationships happen across this country? He is a guy who has been through real difficulty. Lawsuits, public fights, getting pushed out of CEO position, then coming back in. He has lived the full cycle of the founder's journey.

And I think that is interesting because often founders won't talk about that. We only talk about the upside, not the downside. And in today's episode, he's real with you guys about what it takes to win and what it takes to be in the game. So without further ado, Sean Rad. So you went from six or eight years ago being everywhere on the internet. I was looking up all of these interviews of Sean to I couldn't find another one in the last five years besides one other.

What have you been up to? Sailed into the sunset and I disappeared. You did. No, I've been doing a lot. I just, I just, I think I hit a moment in my life where I felt like it's maybe easier to be creative and create things without a lot of noise. And, you know, when I was starting out, I was nowhere. No one knew who I was. And that, that, I think, was so free.

and I had my, you know, five minutes of attention, and part of me just didn't like it. It wasn't about that. I guess it's fun to share my story and inspire others that feels really good. But once I left Tinder, I was no longer representing a bigger company. I could kind of just go back to being me. normal guy. Interesting. So did you kind of get jaded from being too public and all the attention that brought one way or the other? A little bit. I mean, I was always, whenever I would do something like this, it was always about the business. And I was there representing the

business. I was there talking about something we're doing. And there was, you know, there was purpose in that because I wanted people to understand our story and our users to sort of hear what we're about. And whenever it would become about me, I would get very awkward and spaz out. Like, I'd want to talk about me. And, you know, now I guess I'm more comfortable with that. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of, during a lot of this point, you were like in your early 20s. I was young. I was young. Yeah. Yeah, you were young, super public and talking about a dating app. I think at one point I was watching one interview and they were trying to name off your number of sexual partners, which I was like, oh, wow, that's a real thrillback. Yeah, I mean, look, Tinder was massive global product that I think had a lot of implications on society and romance.

And I love talking about that. But then I started doing interviews where it felt like, you know, let's, let's like, let's get him to say something stupid. You know, let's like get personal. Let's, you know, let's get a zinger out of him. And I was just kind of like, that's not what I'm here for, right? I'd love to talk about the company. I'd love to talk about the team. But it's not about me.

And I just didn't know how to handle questions like that. Yeah, who does? Like, what do I say when someone's asking how many partners have you had? when you're there to talk about your company. It was just weird, weird, weird, weird. Yeah, now I think that's probably more normal. Yeah, yeah. Probably not.

No press team's going to prep you for that. No. And I don't think a lot of people realize that you built this huge, multi-billion dollar company, right? That was really public that was in the zeitgeist. But, you know, you had some resources before you had sold a company. But one of my, I think one of your superpowers that I found really interesting is you kind of use what you got. And so it's not like you launched Tinder with this crazy story. You're like,

huh, we launched it. Nobody really cares. Not a lot of uptick. What the fuck do we do now? Well, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to sort of take sticks and build a house. You have to be resourceful. And sometimes when you don't have a lot of resources, it forces you to get creative, forces you to do something out of the box. So I think my mindset was always, if I had a dream, if I had a vision, it wasn't a question of if, it was a question of how. And I always knew there was a path, just had to sort of be creative. I never sort of had this mindset of, oh, I don't have resources, or I don't have something, or I can't do something. I always had this mindset that even with a company,

it's like, you know, we can do anything. It's just a question of what cost. Are we the right people to do it? So I think you have to be resourceful as an entrepreneur. Where did you get that mindset? Is that something that your parents instilled in you? Did you cultivate it? I think so my parents,

came here from Iran, Iranian-Jewish. They built a, they had a successful business, lost it all. They had to basically flee the country when Jews were being persecuted. And my dad came here, met my mom here, but he came here with like $20 in his pocket. It's actually a funny story. His idea of America was always sunny L.A., but he lands in Chicago. go and he only had a t-shirt. He didn't even have a jacket, so freezing cold.

And I think there was always this mindset of this immigrant mentality that we have to make something of ourselves. We have to be resilient. And maybe with my family, it was a little bit of earn back what we lost. So I grew up, I would say, with a lot of, I would say, being. pushed to sort of make a contribution to society, make a contribution do something with your life, and also be very resilient, don't blame others, take responsibility. And I think that was very valuable as an entrepreneur, because life's hard, the life of an entrepreneur can be

excruciatingly hard. And when you approach it with this mindset, that, that, like, you can do anything. It's all in your control. You have agency. And can't, don't blame others, take responsibility

and be resilient and power through the hard times. I think you can accomplish a lot. Yeah, you know, I was reading that the average business makes, the average business owner makes about $76,000 per year if they're able to, survive the 90% drop-off rate in the first three years. And they have no idea what it would look like to build a multi-billion dollar business.

What do you think it takes to just hit profitability? If you were going to look back and say, God, all right, if I was going to do it again, or if you were doing it today, how do you get to that first 76K? Because I think even these days that feels out of reach. Well, look, you have to be willing, if you're starting a business, you have to be willing to to sacrifice a lot, a lot of comfort. And the only reason to do that is because like you really love what you're doing. You have to love it.

It has to be from the heart or else you're going to give up. And when it's from the heart, you're willing to take a lot of pain for that, that bigger mission. So I think that helps you power through. And, you know, I think you don't sort of start out a business thinking I'm going to build a billion dollar business. It's probably too much pressure. Like if someone came and told me when I was building Tinder, hey, you got to build a business that is going to transform the world, a billion dollar business. I don't even know if I would have built Tinder because I didn't have the foresight to say that this would do that. What I was more focused on

is building a product that I love, that I want to use, that my friends want to use. and trusting that if I create value in people's lives, they will pay me for it. And we build a business that way. And eventually, you know, sort of the early days felt like a knife fight. Like every user we had to beg to kind of come into the platform. And eventually, the better you get at what you're doing, the more momentum you get, it starts to take a mind of its own. You know, certain things get easier and then new challenges come in.

I mean, other things get hard, and you have to power through those. And through iteration, you end up clawing your way to something bigger. There is no, this idea that these massive companies that we know started with that intention, just think it's false. I think if you talk to most successful entrepreneurs of that caliber, or they would not say when they were starting out what they were doing that they ever imagined, it would be what it became. It's like you can kind of connect the dots looking back.

It's much harder to connect the dots looking forward. So for me it was always about follow your heart, follow your passion, and just kind of trust that the rest is going to go to the right place. Okay, one thing that I wonder about with people is when they hear follow your passion in love for what you do. It's not like you were passionately in love with matchmaking or something. You're like, you know, I'm passionate painter and so I want to become a painter. You're like, you're in love with the game, right?

Or like, do you think people should just follow their passion? Is that how you make a bunch of money? No, look, I think it's like, it's kind of a Venn diagram, right? You got to follow your passion. You've got to focus on what you're good at. You got to do something that people are willing to pay you for. You know, so you sort of have to check a lot of boxes. But to me, the most important is follow the thing that you love.

For me, it wasn't necessarily, I want to build a dating app or I want to build this matchmaker to bring the world together. But it very much was a fascination of the mobile phone. I had just come out at that time. And I knew that, wow, this thing is going to come. connect us in unimaginable ways. The idea that I have the power of the most powerful computer in my pocket with me all the time is game-changing. And I was in love with what can be done with the phone, but also I had this other insight where all of my friends at a certain point were like, we were together, but everyone's like heads down in their phones. And I'm like,

what the fuck is going on? This is weird. And it just, the thing I was passionate about was this idea that, you know, the phone could, if we're not careful, take us away from the real world. But what if we can use it to bring us closer to the real world? And that was like the start of Tinder. It's like, how can I use this device to help me create more connection in the real world, which as a 20-something, that's all I wanted. I wanted, you know, I wanted more friends.

I wanted a relationship. And I think I struggled with that. And everyone around me was struggling with that. So the thought I had and the thing that I was passionate about was how can I use that phone to bring us closer together? Now, I didn't know where that was going to take me. You know, I think I iterated. I tried different ideas and eventually the idea for Tinder emerged. But that was me really just following the flow of,

what I was curious about and what I loved. And not thinking too much about where it's going to take me, is it going to make me money? Because I think those thoughts early on could almost constrain your creativity and can create pressure that will prevent you from following your heart. Interesting. Yeah, you, how many different iterations do you think you had to go through before you landed on Tinder?

So Tinder was, you know, we, there were, It was my fourth company. So I would say there are many iterations as an entrepreneur that I went to, successes and failures, before I... How many failures? How many of those made you any money? Out of the three companies that I started prior to Tinder, two of them made me some money. Okay. Not like life-changing, but it was, you know...

But I wouldn't say they were successful in terms of what I had hoped they would do. Sure. But I walked away from... each one with a lot of learning. And you started Tinder at how old? I was 25. Wow. So by the time you were 25, you had already had four, that would have been in your four.

Three companies, yeah. Fourth shot and gold. I started my first company when I was 17. Underachiever, huh? Yeah. So I just, I mean, I just loved, I loved creating and I loved building things. And I came from a family of entrepreneurs and builders and sort of like what I grew up with. It's, it's, it felt right, but, um, how'd you know when to kill them?

How to kill them? Like when to kill them. Yeah. You know, sometimes I think, the worst thing you could do in life is like, you stick with your thing, because never quit, because then you're a failure. Great question. Look, you got to, you, you got to know when to quit. And I don't think people talk about that enough.

I think we, we sort of idealize this idea of the entrepreneurs, the person who never gives up, and we'll keep going through it. their vision and if everyone tells you it's a bad idea, then it must be a good idea. That is a crock of shit. If everyone tells you it's a bad idea, then either it's a bad idea or you're asking the wrong people. You're not asking your customers. So for me, I always had this mindset. Maybe it was like a certain a confidence, but at the same time of humility. Like I was always very curious of absorbing the feedback around me with everything I was doing. And If we would succeed, I got curious.

Why did we succeed? What do we do? And if we failed, I also got curious. Why did we fail? What can I learn from that? What can, is there a lesson that I'm going to take into the next thing? And I think when you live your life that way, when you sort of cultivate this mindset that there's learning and success and failure, and as long as I'm turning whatever is happening to me into. to an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to grow,

you're gonna always sort of, you know, it might not go straight up, your life might not go straight up, you're gonna have your bumps in the road, but you'll pick yourself back up, you'll take that learning, you'll do better next time. And that was sort of the mindset that I think brought me to Tinder, but also the mindset that carried Tinder through success.

I mean, we were fortunate enough to make a lot of good decisions, And then we were also fortunate enough to make a lot of bad decisions. But at no point when we made a mistake, did we get upset about it? Did we blame each other? It was always, okay, that didn't work. Let's have the courage to admit it. And let's take that as an opportunity to do something even better.

Now, if we didn't have the courage to admit it and something didn't work and we kept pursuing it, we would have just sunk with the Titanic. right and that is a horrible like you've got to know when to jump on but you also have to know when to jump off yeah you know what's interesting too about you is you know i haven't seen your bank account but the internet tells me it's big and that you've had all these different successes um tech savant you know people want to be like sean these days and uh and yet you've also been in some ways kind of fired really publicly been through a lot of difficulty what was that that like, do you remember, for somebody listening that's kind of scared of even stepping out there?

Or maybe it's had to happen to them. Well, look, I mean, you're going to get hurt when you're taking risks. And again, if you love what you do, then you're going to take that hurt as motivation and a lesson and grow. You know, look, we grow through pain in life, right? We take risks. We get hurt. We learn. We pick ourselves up and we do better.

And, you know, when I got, I didn't get fired, but I was, I was, I was, the board felt that I would, would do the company of service by focusing on product and technology. company was growing insanely fast. This was my first experience at managing something at that scale. For most everyone on the team, it was their first. I mean, Tinder was growing so fast that it wasn't the kind of thing where you can kind of point to someone and say, oh, you've done that before, right? Because no one had done that before. It was growing so fast.

So I sort of thought, and the board thought it would be a good idea, for me to focus more on product and technology, which is where my passion was. That ended up being a very bad idea for the business. We brought in a new CEO that didn't work out, so I came back into the role. And I think it was the best experience because being able to step out, A, humbled me and also gave me perspective to understand that every part of the business mattered equally. It wasn't like as a leader, as a founder that I can just go focus on product and technology and everything else would just sort of figure itself out or that I can play favorites.

As a leader, you have to give equal love to every part of your business because it is like, it's like great music. Every instrument matters. Every chord matters. Every note matters. And everyone has to be playing and drumming to the same beat. And when you don't have that as a company, you're going to, you're going to have hard times. So I think for me it was great.

I got to step out. I learned from that experience. I came back in and I think I was a better leader as a result. So I have no regrets. Was there ever a point at Tinder where you thought, this thing's going to implode? We're not going to make it. and then I am going to be a failure. Does you ever have one of those dark nights of the soul?

So many. Oh, my God. Sometimes in the early days because things weren't working, and like, how are we going to get users, how are we going to get people to use this? And then sometimes because they were working so well that, like, you know, I remember in the early days, at 8 p.m., Tinder would just stop working for everyone because we had so many users flooding the system,

and we just, we couldn't rebuild the system fast enough to sustain the skill. Because when we built it, we sort of like, you know, we didn't build it with scale in mind. We didn't think we were going to be hit and grow so fast. So we sort of, we had this airplane flying, but the airplane wasn't, you know, built to go at Mach 2. You know, it was, so we, and we couldn't, like, land the plane and fix it because we had to keep going, but then we had to rebuild the airplane while it's in the air. And so many times there was this fear of, like, oh, shit, this isn't going to work.

We're not going to be able to fix this. We're going to lose all the momentum that we're getting. So, you know, sometimes success and rapid success is just as hard as failure. I mean, it's a champagne problem to have. Don't get me wrong. I choose that problem over failure. But when you're growing like this, you don't really have a lot of time to dot your eyes, cross your teas, get your ducks in a row. When a business is growing like this, there's a luxury of space and time, and you could be a little more thoughtful.

When you're growing like this, you really need to prioritize. You really need to pick your battles. You really need to be that much better at, um, at navigating and getting the team to focus on what matters and making a decision of what you're going to leave for Lanner. Yeah. I was reading a study the other day that something like 76, 80 percent of startups fail because they run out of cash.

And I think most people think that that is because they can't sell enough. But I'm not convinced that it's always that. I think it is often that people don't understand float. People don't understand that if you're growing really quickly, it actually costs you a bunch of money before it'll ever make you. any money. And so they're really, I'm not even sure if it's champagne. It could be really awful on both sides. You could have a fast-moving rocket ship blow-up just as easily as sort of one that never takes off. Yeah, and money doesn't solve all problems. If money was the reason that startups

succeed, then, you know, you wouldn't have a scenario where smaller companies disrupt bigger companies. Just think about that, right? You know, let's look at Google. Google's a good example. or Microsoft at one point put $2 billion into building a better Google. Well, if money bought you success, then they would have won. They didn't. They just sort of pissed away $2 billion. And I think what startups need to understand is that constraints can sometimes be your friend. When you don't have a lot of money, when you don't have a lot of options,

it forces you to focus on what really matters. It forces you to get creative. And that's often why startups succeed and can move faster than bigger companies because there's less distractions. They can zero in on what really matters. And that's a gift, right? And it shouldn't be a gift to put to waste, right?

If you're sitting there as a startup saying, man, only if I had more money, only if I had more people, only if I had more of this, you're focused on the wrong thing. Again, focus on what's in front of you and what you do have and how do you maximize what you have and how do you become more resourceful? Because a lot of times people don't solve problems, they can create more problems. A lot of the times money doesn't solve problems. Money can actually create more problems.

So it's sort of the wrong thing to focus on. But of course, you need capital to grow at the right time. I just don't want to put the cart before the horse. We just did something really cool. If you've ever thought about buying a business or want to understand what the word seller financing made, you've got to try this. So basically you fill up this application

and we sort every single human who comes through this list to the right tool and resource for them when it comes to buying a business, when it comes to finding financing for buying a business, and when it comes to building a business. So you get directed to our member of experience or one of our members of experience and they find the right tools and resources for you.

Some of this stuff is just, just free. Like, oh, hey, you don't understand seller financing? Here's an article for you. Some of it is, wow, you really are ready for the 303 level. You should do the workshop. Some of it is like, you know what? Start here with our first little intrigue guide. I want to make sure that I get every single human only what they need, when they need it, to become an owner. You might like this. Hit the link in the description below, and we will sort you to figure out what kind of business buyer are you. You know, it seems like taking risk is one of the keys to wealth and success, but for a lot of people, taking risk is hard and they never do, which is maybe why, you know, 60% of people hate their jobs and yet never leave them. How did you get comfortable with risk or how do you think about risk, especially for young people who maybe haven't had a chance to take it yet?

And would you tell them to go take active risk? Well, first of all, the younger you are, the easier it is to take risk, right? And use that to your advantage. started my first company when I was 17. And I was in college and or sorry, I was just entering college. And I think I had this mindset that like, okay, like I have this thing, college, right? And like I could do that well. And as long as I'm doing that well, my parents will be okay. So let me go take as much risk as I can take outside of school.

And let me go try different things. and I had I didn't have kids I didn't you know I didn't have to I was I was working and paying some of my own bills at the time but I had you know my parents were supporting me and I use that as an excuse to take more risk and I think the older you get the harder it is to take risk and it like risk is like a muscle right it's like the the younger you try new things and the younger the earlier you you sort of train your mindset to know that, that like, I'm going to do something and if it works great. And if it doesn't work, that's still okay too because I'm going to learn from that and I'm going to leverage that into the next thing. So if you have that mindset, there's no such thing as failure. You can have moments where something didn't work, but if you get back up and you use that to your advantage, then you're no. never going to fail. If you cower to it and you just kind of say, fuck, I'm this, I'm that,

I can't do it, blame others, not take accountability, then you will get kind of like sucked into the void and then be afraid to get back up and take another risk. Lots of people say these days, you work hard. You know, if you go around and watch these videos on the internet, which you probably don't because you have good social media usage. But they, you know, there's these young guys and they go to fix people in fancy cars. And they're like, how'd you make all your money, right? Have you ever seen those? Yeah, yeah. And then they go, you know, what advice would you give to a 20-something? They always go, work hard. And I wonder, do you think hard work is enough? No. No. I mean, if hard work was

enough, well, look, I think what is enough is the first question you're going to ask, right? What is success? I think we have a lot of false notions of what success looks like. But I mean, if you you want to say, hey, success is maybe freedom or financial freedom, then you have to work hard. But is that enough? No, because, you know, if you're expending hard work and energy on things that don't matter, is that going to make you successful? No. So I think, you know, your body's kind of like an engine.

You've got to rev the engine and you've got to move. If you're just sitting still, you're not going to go anywhere, right? but so you so the hard work is the movement the motion the engine the doing things but if you're driving on the wrong road then you're just wasting your time so i think it's a balance of hard work but thoughtfulness it's a balance of hard work but moments of asking yourself what do i really love what do i want what is success for me um um planning right visiting your plan as you learn, realizing, okay, well, maybe that plan wasn't right. Maybe I got to shift my plan a little bit. Hard work on its own won't get you to any destination. It'll just

get you motion, but you've got to point the car in the right direction. How do you figure out the right games to play or the right roads to go on? I think that's the hardest part for young people in a world with massive optionality. Yeah, I mean, look, what's beautiful today, uh, for especially younger generations is we have more opportunity than we've ever had, right? So someone who's 18 has more opportunity than I had when I was 18, and I had at 18 way more opportunity than my parents had. And sometimes that could be overwhelming, right? Because it's like you have, you have so many options.

What do I do? And that's, again, where I go back to, like, following your passion and following what's in front of you. I think a lot of, I have young cousins who often come to me like, what do I do with my life? Like, I want to do what you did. I want to be successful.

I just don't know where to start. And my advice is always like, well, what are your options right now? Put aside where you want to be. What is available to you? Just grab one. Move, right? And then you'll learn.

And maybe that's not the right thing. and then you can jump off that. Again, you got to know when to jump on and when to jump off. Momentum is your friend. If you don't have momentum, you're not learning. You're not iterating. So I think people spend, especially these days, I see this with a lot of young people,

too much time thinking about what am I going to do with my life? Who am I going to be? And too little time with just focusing on being. Just do what's in front of you, learn, iterate. I was a college student. That's what I was doing. And I dabbled with other stuff. And when something better came along, I jumped off, I dropped out of college and I jumped on that boat. And when that startup, you know, I felt like my plan wasn't really working out. I wasn't afraid to say, okay, I brought this to, you know, I gave it four years. Now let me jump off this and let me jump on

another opportunity. So I think having that opportunistic mindset is going to constantly push you in the right direction. But you've got to just move and you got to start with what's in front of you. Yeah. You know, when we were sitting in your living room, one of the things that really impressed me about you is, you know, you have this big background, you've done all these huge things. But you mostly just asked me a ton of questions. And you're like, well, what about this? What have you thought about this with Biscout? Have you done this? Have you done this? And I think a lot of times people who are up and coming don't realize that the people are the most successful are not always the ones who talk. They actually are the ones reaping information

constantly. And so were you always curious like that? And how much is curiosity and asking a lot of questions important to success? I guess I was always curious and always searching for truth. Like, I didn't just accept answers as they came to me. I needed to understand more and kind of go deeper and go deeper and go deeper. And that is absolutely the most important thing in life and in work. Because when you ask questions, like actually, it's harder to ask the right questions than it is to have the answers. Questions are more important than answers.

As a leader, too, right? I think people have this misconception as a leader that you sort of like come down from the mountaintop with the game plan. And you, you, you guys all have to do this. And then we're going to make it, that's actually not great leadership. I think great leadership is you have a vision. And then you ask people questions and you let them and you empower them to come up with great answers. And then you have an organization where everyone feels included.

So if you're just giving everyone the answers, that's a pretty boring company to be a part of, right? No one wants to be a cog in a machine. And you're not going to extract out of people their full creativity. So I think questions, questioning yourself, questioning others, that's what gets you to the deeper truth. And that's what pushes you to grow. And the more questions you ask, the better you get at asking questions. So absolutely. I mean, Elon Musk talks a lot about this, but the book, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a good testament.

into this. It's a sort of an advanced civilization that builds this unbelievable AI. And they ask it all to get to the point, what is the meaning of life? And the answer is 42. And they realize, oh, shit. You know, we actually didn't ask the right question. It's actually a lot harder to raise your consciousness to ask the right question than to just come up with the answer. Yeah. Speaking of that, both of those, how many people did you employ at like the height of Tinder? Do you remember? We had about, by the time I left, we had about 400 people at Tinder. And you're growing fast, you're hiring like crazy, you're young, how did you become a leader? I think they're through asking questions, through learning, right? I think you have to be a fast learner.

to succeed. You have to be able to distill a lot of information. And look, there was so many things I didn't know any. There was so many times where I'm like, all right, intuitively I know what to do here. I'm going to give it a shot and I'm going to focus on first principles. Like, let's on one hand kind of put aside everyone else's experience because even though there were people around me with a lot more experience. Our team had the most experience with Tinder, right? So, you know, we understood that the best. And you kind of start there.

And you have to have some confidence in kind of knowing your shit, right? And as we scaled and we had new challenges, again, I approached them with curiosity. All right, what are the different ways we can solve this? Let me ask mentors. Let me ask others around me. Let me ask for help.

Sometimes people have a lot of problem asking for help because they think it's embarrassing if you ask for help. That's not true. It's the opposite. It's incredibly powerful to ask questions. Ask for help, synthesize that information, and then come out with a thoughtful course of action. Do it.

Again, ask questions. Did that work? Could we have done something better? Rinse and repeat, iterate. And that's even how we grew the product. It was, to me, my job as a leader was to ask our customers' questions, right? It was like, I want to understand what they want. It's not about what I want.

It's not about what the team wants. We're here to serve our users to create value in their lives. Let's ask questions. Let's learn about them. Let's be curious. And that curiosity creates innovation. What kind of mechanisms did you have to ask questions to your users in the beginning? Were you like picking up the phone and giving them a phone call?

We're shooting out texts. Well, so first of all, I think this is also very important when you're building a business. We were the users, right? So we were building for ourselves at first. And a lot of people talk about this concept of product market fit, which is like there's a market and you have to like build the right product that the market wants. And that's like a moment in time. Well, for me, it was always like, first step is product team fit.

Do we want to use this product? And you ought to be honest about that. And if we didn't want to use it and it wasn't good enough, back to the drawing board. So now we want to use it. Great. So the next is like product friends fit. Do the sort of closer customers around us? Let's try it with them.

Do they want to use it? Okay, now we cross that bear. Now we go wider and we go wider and we go wider. So it's like you're stress testing the product at every single point. And I think that is, even if you're running a massive company, right, and you have a new innovation or new idea, that is the natural course evolution of success. It's like you can't jump to the end point. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Build it, test it, build it, test it, iterate test. that doesn't mean you don't have a vision. You have to have a vision. You have to have a sense of where you want to go, but you can't be too married to an outcome or else you're never going to iterate. You're never going to learn and never going to improve. Yeah, I think that's one of the hardest parts

that I found in building products and running teams that are fast-growing because sometimes in the team it can feel jerky. I always think about it like left row, right row on a canoe. And maybe you have your quantitative metrics, like, yeah, we want revenue, but we also want, you know, quality, whatever your quality metric is. And so I think it can sometimes feel overwhelming for them.

And as a leader, it's at times hard to explain why the path never goes like this, and we can't plan perfectly and said it's a little bit like this. So when you are working on businesses or with the, you know, hundred companies you've invested in since then, what advice do you give leaders to help explain to your team that, you know, it's not going to be the most linear of a path, and that's actually normal. Well, I think the first thing I would say is you have to, as a leader, inspire others to go on a journey with you.

So you have to have a sense of what problem are we solving? Make sure that's clear. Why is it important to me as the person who's asking you to, join me on this mission. And then you want people around you where that becomes important to them. So passion, right? When you have passion,

naturally when something goes wrong, people don't get stuck in that. It's like, okay, that didn't work, but like we believe in where we're going. All right, let's iterate, let's get back on. But also, you need to cultivate an honest environment. at Tinder, I encouraged people to come to me and tell me if something the company was doing was bad or something I was doing was bad. It's like I wanted that feedback.

It's like, you know, check me. Tell me I'm wrong, right? You want to cultivate that environment. And rather than like, let's all pretend like everything's beautiful and let's bury things under, let's bury the problems under the table. when you're sort of facing both the good and the bad and the eye, it's people get comfortable with facing the bad and people keep seeing that like when we come up with a problem, that's actually exciting because now we get to go solve it.

And now we get better. And culture is very much a product of wins and losses. Culture is not like this thing, you know, we put some fancy words on the board and we all, strive to do those things. Culture is a product of experience. We tried that thing. We learned that worked. Now we sort of like developed the playbook a little further, right? Like let's, that's, for us, that was a good move. Let's codify that. We tried this thing. That didn't work. All right. Well, now let's understand that like why that didn't work. So let's not make that

mistake again. And let's put that on the board and say, so the series of wins and losses becomes your culture. And that's why companies like humans, the more we experience. the more we take risk, the better we get. The more we learn, the more we grow as a team. So I think you have to cultivate that mindset that success, failure is okay as long as, well, success is obviously okay, but failure is okay as long as we're leveraging it into something better. Ultimate failure is not okay.

Momentary failure is okay. and sometimes good because it's like the check, like stop, what you were doing, that's not the right path. Course correct. And if you're not willing as a team, as a culture, look at each other and say, that didn't work, or that's a stupid idea, or we made a mistake, then you're never going to course correct or you're never going to improve. Yeah, you know what's interesting is you seem comfortable with risk and comfortable with a little bit of conflict. You know, you obviously had a big public lawsuit in the later days of Tinder with like arguably one of the most powerful men in the world, Barry Dylan. And you won or at least settled, you know, let's use the right vernacular. What was that like?

And was that scary to go through? It was very scary, but again, I go back to. the heart. I think it, although, you know, although it was scary, the, the pursuit of what I believed was right, the pursuit of defending the team,

the pursuit of, of the heart, right? The love overshadowed all of that fear. And like I just tried not to think about the fear. It's just like focus on the positive. Focus on the just nature of what you're doing. Focus on your truth. And again, I mean, I keep saying it, but it's like once you have that, when something kind of hits you off course, it's like, it's like, all right, bring it on. I'm going to get back on. I'm going to

keep going because I believe in what I'm doing. It's when you actually don't believe in what you're doing. When you actually don't love what you're doing, when you get knocked down, you're not, you might not want to get back up because it's like, oh, is this really worth it? So the resilience, like love is resilience. And cultivating a culture of love, of passion, of meaning, of purpose, as a leader bringing that to whatever you do and inspiring that in others, that's going to power the engines beyond, that's going to create more energy than anything else,

more than fear, more than hate, more than a desire to compete and destroy your competition. Like, that's the wrong thing to focus on because, A, it's not healthy, but B, it's not, it's not going to give you the greatest level of horsepower, you know, and it's not going to scale. Love can scale. Hate, fear, those things could give you some energy if you's right, but they also don't scale. they also they're they're not productive they eat you up inside they don't make you better so when you are going through it you know and you kind of you got it i think you said it you're like we got to go to war you know we're going to go to war with this person and i think in business there

are moments like that and people don't like to talk about it because it doesn't always have to be a zero-sum game at all but there are moments where like you were called to sort of battle and to either win or lose for somebody. So how do you do that in a way where you don't lose yourself in hateful emotions? Or are some moments you're like, no, I'm fucking mad. We're going to be the doing this in a moment. But the long game

reason why we're doing it is positive. I think love doesn't always mean that you don't protect, defend, right?

Love can someone sometimes be violent even, right? Like, I don't, I hate drama. I don't like problems with anyone. I like win, win scenarios. But if someone threatens my family or someone fucks with me, right? I'm not going to just be like, oh, I love you so much. Thank you for, no, it's like, that's not love at that point.

Because if you threaten something I love and you threaten my truth, then it is actually love when I say, I'm going to bring justice, and I'm not going to let you get away with that, and I'm going to hold you accountable. And also when you're scaling a business, look, there are times, you know, we had Tinder such a passionate, loving environment,

and we were, like, really close like a family, that it was, like, really hard for me to fire people. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs deal with this. and it took me a while to realize that I used to think that if someone's not performing and if I fire them or I hold them accountable, that I'm being mean and I'm hurting them. It took me a while to see that, no, no, no, I'm actually being mean by not holding them accountable. Because love is also, hey, let me tell you what you're doing is wrong so that you can improve. right? I want you to be better. And maybe sometimes that means, hey, this isn't the right place for you. There's another place where you can thrive. It's not working out here. Leaving you in that position

is not love. I'm just causing suffering. So I think, again, love isn't rainbows and butterflies. Yeah. I think, have you read any of Arthur Brooks stuff? We're kind of talk. You've got to. He has a book called Love Your Enemies. But he is actually, he started an institute at Harvard, which is all about love. And basically really interesting guy, head of AEI, the conservative think tank, left to go to to Harvard and create this institute all about happiness and love. Oh, is that the happiness study? Yes, you know a lot about it.

Yeah. The 80-year happiness study. Yeah. Yes. And he's fascinating because he's best buds with the Dalai Lama. and also like on a first name basis with Carl Rove and Dick Cheney. You know, so you have like a very odd juxtaposition of a human. Yeah.

But he would, in a touchy-feely way, say it's the most powerful emotion out there. More than hate, more than vengeance. Look, I mean, do you want to be a billionaire on a yacht by yourself with no friends, with no love in your life, with unhealthy relationships. Or would you rather be a millionaire or something less, but you have great relationships in your life, you have great love, you have meaning, like,

love is all there is. I mean, I know this is very, like, touchy-feely that I'm saying this, but, like, it really is true that when you put your ego aside and you just pursue that kind of that flow, what your soul is gravitating you towards, like you're going to be happy and doesn't mean that bad things won't happen, but you're going to have the energy to overcome them

and you're going to actually feel like those painful moments are making you grow. So I think another thing I'll say very much about, you know, this relates to Tinder. It's like, you know, we don't celebrate love and romance as much as we used to. Like, I grew up watching rom-coms, romance movies. Like, I was a lover of love.

Like, it was so beautiful. Now it's like we celebrate some other things, maybe some ego-driven pursuits. And what we need to, like, remember, for anyone who's been in love, who's been married, who's had like a deep bond and a friendship, the high you get from that is like no other high. That's the best high to pursue.

And that's a healthy high. The other highs are momentary can lead to addiction and can lead to your downfall. Yep, it's true. Tanner just got married, so he probably feels this acutely. That was last weekend. Congrats. I know. I do think it's gotten a bad rap, which is interesting.

I don't know why. We should dive into that a little bit. But, you know, I've been married for four years now, but we've known each other since we were like 12. And so, yeah, and it's the greatest joy in my life. It's also very difficult at times, for sure. And the path to get here was anything but straight-lined. But, man, life is hard. And so having somebody you can rely on is incredibly beautiful.

And that was, like, you know, part of your goal at Tinder, right? I mean, we were joking about how you don't like if it's called a hookup app because you say it's not. That was not the purpose of it. Well, just so much more. Yeah. I mean, were there more hookups as a result of us building this? tool that connects people. Yes, but there are also more marriages, there are more friendships, there was more of everything. If you're 18 and on Tinder, you're not looking to get married.

You might not even be looking to date. So, you know, you're going to, you know, Tinder was a reflection of who was using it. What we built is this highly effective way to connect people and bring down the barriers of connection. What you do with that connection, we never will wanted to judge, right? Not hookups, not marriages, not dating. You know, we actually, we had a rule against saying that Tinder is a hookup app, a dating app, a marriage app, and anything up. Like, we did not want to define it because we saw ourselves as this very effective tool of making an introduction. What you do with it is completely up to you. We don't want to judge. It's not our place to tell you what to do with a relationship or where to go.

that is up to the individuals. So what do you think about what has become of online dating today? Like we've got apps like Hinge, we've got apps like Bumble, and we've got apps like Tinder. Where do you think we have gone wrong in a society where we're having less sex than ever? We're getting married later and less often than ever. And we feel more lonely and disconnected than ever. And yet it's this easy. There's a, there's, I mean, if I could talk about this for hours, I don't think, a decline in marriage, a decline in sex, I don't think is a byproduct of a product like Tinder.

I actually think maybe Tinder is helping, you know, a product. just the trend, prevent it from going down even worse, I think there's a lot of societal factors that are resulting in this. I think part of it is like, you know, we all, we all are pursuing independence, we all, which is beautiful, right? I think we're more independent, more individual, and we have the power to sort of be who we want. And I guess, like, again, again, we forget that two people coming together is more beautiful than me sort of being whoever I want and doing whatever I want, right? Yeah.

It does feel like self-love has overcome love. Love. Yes. Yeah. And I think we forget that like the power of love between people, community, again, that's the greatest high, right? Sometimes that requires sacrifice of your personal ambition. and individuality.

And sometimes that could be a positive thing because I think you create a community. You have to give a little bit of yourself to sort of come together as a team, as a community. But if you give a lot of yourself, that's bad, right? Or if you're compromising sides of yourself that you're not willing to compromise, that's bad. And I think maybe for a period of time,

marriage and felt a little confining, a little too controlling for people. So we were sort of like entered this wave of like, don't control me. I am who I am. I want to pursue whatever I want. I want to do whatever I want, which is beautiful. But I feel like now we're coming back and remembering that, oh, while that's beautiful, making a relationship work and making a marriage work and making healthy friendships work

will pay off so much. And so I think there's maybe a revival of love, at least I feel, a revival, maybe like a spiritual, romantic sense of community, relationships, people are starving for it. I definitely feel like there's thirst. I don't know about the quenching yet. I heard this new term the other day, self-ogamy.

What is that? Which is like, instead of monogamy, it's just, yeah, you're in a unilateral relationship with yourself. I think it actually originated right here in L.A. Holy shit. Of course, by a Hollywood actress, which I won't name because I'm not positive that was her. But there does seem to be this, I don't know what it is. In a world in which we have so much, so many options, men and women aren't talking to each

other in that way anymore. Now, you had a belief that Tinder was the right way to do it, as opposed to the way that let's just use two examples, Hinge and Bumble are doing it. I thought that was really interesting. Can you explain why? Well, first of all, Tinder's still the biggest. By far, everyone else copied Tinder. So I don't think they're different. They're different around the margins, but let's examine what made Tinder work. Without Tinder, if there's someone I want to me, I would have to walk up to them, put myself out there, I might get rejected. That might really suck for the person who has to reject me. But Tinder created this magical environment where, like, I could tell the matchmaker, the phone is like the matchmaker. I go, I'm really

interested in that person. But I'm not really, you know, if they're interested in me, then the matchmaker can say, hey, Sean and so-and-so, you both like each other, you should start talking. And that was like the innovation we called the double opt-in. Which was revolutionary, right? Which was revolution. And that was your idea. Yes, that was the core idea. Because before that, I would walk up to someone who was like a numbers game.

I might get rejected. I might feel bad about myself. I might make someone feel uncomfortable. I might be at a restaurant. And like, you know, you could be with your friends and I'm with my friends. And it's weird for me to like interrupt your dinner. It was just very weird and confusing. And then the phone was kind of like making us more insealer and like kind of taking us out and we were losing those skills.

So Tinder solved that by breaking down those barriers. And back then, before Tinder, you had online dating or dating apps. But they actually made that worse because if I was on a match.com, I could message anyone. So all that would happen is that example of me walking up to someone getting rejected. became worse because now I would message five people and none of them would respond and I'd be like, fuck. Like I feel like a loser or I feel desperate.

So Tinder really changed that game. And then after that, I mean, so like we created this industry, we created this movement. And then there were a lot of other companies that came after with maybe like an angle or maybe thinking that they're fixing a problem with Tinder. That was like their market.

I mean, all these other products, their marketing message somewhat now, but especially when they're starting, was we are Tinder, but we have this one little feature. I'm like, that's not really a company. I mean, like, where's the vision in that? Where is the imagination? And there's a reason they're not bigger than Tinder. Because you're not doing something truly disruptive. And then I also find these. other products, some of them to be very elitist. It's like you have dating apps where it's like,

you can only be here if you're, you know, college graduate. It's like, fuck off. Like, okay, like if you're, this is the dating app for Ivy League people. Or some of them are like, you know, women are the only ones who can send a message first. I'm like, why? Yeah, that fucking backfired a lot. Yeah, very much back. Now women are like, you know, now they're pissed about that. Yeah, it's like why would you, why is that better for women? Like, so now you have to do more work and now you have to put yourself out there more versus, I mean, it just, and like, why is that better for the ecosystem? Why is that better for romance and love? Some people go first and some people don't go first, and everyone's unique.

And so I think Tinder was like this belief that, like, we didn't want to judge people. We didn't want to change people. we wanted to empower people to be themselves. Yep. But come together. I like it. Okay, how about the counter argument, which is, did we make a bunch of soft motherfuckers that now can't even go up to each other at a bar and ask each other out?

Like, do we have real societal consequences from this? It's a good question. I've struggled with that question. I would say two things. One, like, I was one of those soft motherfuckers who, you know, didn't have. have the courage to walk up to someone. Are you a nerd? No, I wouldn't say it was a nerd.

I was just like, you know, I was, I was too shy to walk up to someone, but like, if, like, the connection happened, I was no longer shy. Like, so it's like that, that like first. A little trigger. Yeah, that first thing, the first push was hard for me. And so I think, you know, you could say we're creating soft people or you could also say that We're bringing, creating more connections and more love, and that is a beautiful thing. Could be both.

Could be both. And then the other thing is we forget, okay, I match on Tinder, I still have to see someone in the real world. True. That still requires courage. That still requires me to put myself out there. So we're removing an element of a barrier. We're not taking away the challenge, the hardship in romance. that would be a horrible idea because people grow through those challenges people come closer

if you if it was all rainbows and butterflies we would just be floating around and I don't I don't I don't there would be no contrast no risk no flavor right to romance so I think you don't want to extract that you don't want to take those things away but giving an initial nudge and bringing people together, all good by my book. Yeah. Well, I agree. So you would still create Tinder today. Like if it didn't exist, you would be like, yes.

100%. Yeah. Well, that's always good, but you can look back over that length of time and say. I mean, we've created over 50 billion matches, probably more marriages than any platform in history, more hookups, more friendships. Do you guys meet any of your people from an app? An elitist.

In the flesh. Well, Tinder, Tinder owns Hinge. So it's all good. Oh, I didn't actually even know that. Yeah. So. Interesting. Match Group owns Tinder.

Yeah, they own everything. Yeah, which is basically Tinder. Copy. Quick, FYI, we've got just a few months before my first ever book is out in the world. If you want to pre-order it for yourself or anyone you love, you can do that in the link in the show notes, or you can search it online.

It's called Main Street Millionaire. You'll love it. I think it'll make you a lot of money, and I hope you guys pre-order. Okay, so what about, we've kind of, I mean, I'm not professing that either one of us are dating experts or projecting that onto you. I know you've, you're happily married. Everyone thinks I am. I'm not. You know, maybe that could be your next, that could be your next generation. But do you think

that there is a specific role that a man and a woman should play in the first part of dating in a relationship? I don't think there's rules, but I think there are universal laws of energy. And each of us have masculine energies and feminine energies in us.

And I think if we're both showing up with the same energy, it might, you know, it's like positive, positive will knock us away. So I think love and romance is a dance. You know, I think a great example.

Someone gave me, it's like, you know, relationships are like this. You know, there's a giver, there's a receiver, and you're switching. If you don't have that inner play, then I don't think you can have magic. And I'll say something, maybe. be controversial. But I do think that we also, maybe it's evolution, maybe, but there are desires that men have and desires that women have and they are different. And those should be respected and celebrated. Those shouldn't be demonized. And I think, you know, men want to protect, want to

feel like they are valued as a protector as someone bringing safety to those around them and sometimes and yeah there's like bad men there's bad examples but this this attack on masculinity

so bad for society right as would an attack on femininity would be so bad on society. And it's just like, you know, anyone can be whoever they want, be whoever you want. But at the same time, let's recognize that, like, you have these polarities in all relationships, romantic or not romantic. You know, you have a desire to protect. You have a desire to nurture.

And I think if there wasn't that. interchange and just life's not as beautiful. Sometimes I'm nurturing to my wife and, you know, my friends might look at me and say you're whipped or you're feminine or you're whatever, but that's fine. And sometimes I'm protection mode and I want to just take care of her and protect her and nurture her in a different way and that's all fine. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick.

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No, I don't think that should be controversial. No, it's not controversial. I think it's good that we could say, that we can say the quiet part out loud. Yes. You know, and especially if people who have achieved, you know, post-economic success, who have built things that matter in the world, can't say the quiet part out loud are really in trouble as a society. We have to be able to express ourselves and be honest with each other.

Yeah, and there's things called math and physics and science. I think in some regards, it's all a question, but it is bizarre to me the things that are controversial today that make no sense. But I am sitting in California, so I'll be careful. Otherwise, maybe I get too censored. I want to get actually to a little bit more of that later, talking about what's going on in the world today from your perspective, because we've had some cool chats on that. But I want to round out this dating part. You have seen, you've been on the inside to more matches. more information on humans to come in together to find love of some sort than probably most humans alive today.

What advice would you give to somebody trying to find a partner today? Because I see so many desperately seeking her. Number one, be authentic. Be yourself. Don't front. You don't want someone to like you for something you're not. Because eventually they're going to find out who you really are. Right? You want someone to love you for who you were. And that's number one.

Number two, I would say, be curious, ask questions. You're there to get to know someone else. You know, the most effective, like pickup lines never worked on Tinder. They were just laughed at. What did work is if I was looking at your profile and I noticed something in a photo, I noticed something about you, and I asked you a question about that,

and I showed you that I actually care about you. And then I was infronting, right? And I was being real, and what I was projecting in my profile and my photos was the true me, the real me, the everyday me. So I think that's one thing. The second thing is, maybe don't give up so easily.

because I think we have this false notion that relationships are sort of like the honeymoon phase has to always be the thing or else there's something wrong maybe this person's not right from me maybe someone else is right from me and I think the reality of all relationships

there are problems two people coming together is a hard thing right there are always areas of yourself that you are going to be pushed to improve because someone's like putting a mirror in front of you and that's growth. There are areas of yourself that you need to let go of. That's growth. And if you give up too easily, you're actually not going to grow. You're not going to grow together. You're not going to grow as an individual. So it's like there's this great meme I saw on Facebook a while ago of this old couple.

in bed together, very, very old, and they're asked, um, um, why, why are you still together after 60 years and why are other people struggling so much? And the, the, the, the, the woman in the relationship said, um, because we come from a generation when something is broke, we don't throw it away, we fix it. Um, and I think in a sense, like, we are all here to fix things inside of us. and we are all here to improve. And if you're not willing to self-reflect and change and evolve, you're not growing.

And again, it goes to this like this individualistic pursuit of, I am who I am. Don't, you know, don't tell me to change. It's like, okay, there's some beauty in that. There's a lot of beauty in that. Of course. No one should ever force you to be someone you're not. But there also has to be a recognition of, well, maybe, you know,

maybe your shit stinks a little bit. Exactly. Like maybe who you are is not that. Like I'm not the same person I was in any year of my marriage. And my wife pushed me to change and evolve and fix so many things and that hurt. But now I look back and I'm like, thank you. Thank you because I love myself so much more. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's beautiful advice and very honest. And a lot of people don't take it. because I love the idea about not giving up later in relationships. I also think that's probably pretty true in the beginning of trying to find one. Yeah. You know, there's this whole in-cell movement, right? Where people online, I was just on Twitter today, really healthy place, if you want to look up, things like this.

But they were talking about how, like, increasingly men don't have a choice, that there is this whole group of men that even if they want to have sex, they cannot. And then, you know, they all kind of pile onto a thread and start agreeing with each other about all the reasons why women are awful. They won't sleep with them. They should, et cetera. So now they're just opting out entirely. And I find that to be such a fascinating phenomenon.

That's sad. I think that means those men need to evolve. And those men need to take the feedback. If there's something they're doing, it's great. I mean, that's like a great sign. Like, you've got to change. Something you're doing isn't working. And, you know, you're not able to retract someone.

then I think you're doing something wrong. I have a friend, my really good friend, I'm not going to say his name. Who's an in-sell? No, I wouldn't say he's an in-sell, but he is struggling. He's older. He wants to get married. And I was talking to him another day, and I'm like, well, let's just, like, take inventory. How many people have you dated in the last five years?

And he's, like, 25? And, like, none of them have worked out. Like, that's some pretty bad odds. So, like, let's try to understand why. how many, like, if you were to bucket the reasons, and he's like, well, half of them I didn't like, I didn't end up liking, and half of them, maybe they didn't end up liking me. It's like, okay, so let's look at that. Either you're way too picky, or you're doing something to turn off a lot of people. And he didn't want to accept that because he didn't want to accept there's something

wrong with him. And it like, but that's why he's still single. Did you break through? I think I broke through. Statistics, numbers sometimes can wake people. Data can wake people up. But, and I think he changed his mindset. And now, you know, he realized he needs to be more forgiving, less picky.

He also has things about himself that he needs to temper. And now he's in a very happy relationship. That's amazing. Yeah. And it happened very quickly. So I think there's like there's this element of like you you have to be honest with yourself. You have to it goes back to what we were talking about in companies. If you have a company where I'm not able to tell you, I'm not comfortable enough to tell you that, hey, you did something wrong or I don't, I think you need to improve that thing and let's have a discussion about it.

And you're just going to walk around doing the same thing you're doing. And I'm lying to you and I'm just going to grow resentment. and we're not going to come together. You're just going to kind of go your path. I'm going to go my path. But it's through that tension that we get closer. Through that tension we find common ground. Through that tension that we change.

And that's a beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong with that. That's evolution. That's society. That's romance. You know what's interesting is I remember you were talking back in the day about how Tinder tried a few different things. Like you guys tried to be a friendship-making app at one point.

And what you did right there, is something that I think a lot of people do not do today, which is tell the thing that their friend does not want them to hear to their face. And you did it rationally, and in a way that you could just... Kindly, rationally, numerically, which I think is a nice way to say. You also had sort of a framework, like, let's take inventory, which is like not let's talk about your fault. It's like, let's just analyze the situation.

And then let's bucket it. And then let's see what could be a downward stream of that. But I wonder if one of the problems of dating today is the fact that, fact that we're not willing to have those conversations with our friends, maybe. Yeah, vulnerability, which I think goes back to, you know, you asked me what brings people together or what people miss in dating. When I said be yourself and be authentic, that means be vulnerable. And I think this is like, people think like, oh, I got to like put on the front, I can't be

vulnerable, and that's courage and that strength. Vulnerability is strength. It takes a lot more courage to sort of show up and say, you know, I really suck at this thing. I really want to improve here or this is who I really am. And you might not like that about me, but I want to be honest with you. So I think honesty is a beautiful thing. And I mean, you have to be kind. No one wants, you know, you can't be harsh with your friends.

You can't be judgmental. But you're not kind to your friends and you're not loving if you're just never giving them. feedback or never being vulnerable with them and soliciting feedback. That's not what a relationship is about. Were you always sort of more empathetic like this? Or was young Sean totally different than this Sean? No, I think I was always okay with people. Well, okay, so it's double-edged I grew up in a family Middle Eastern. Middle Easterners love hard

and hate hard. So there was a lot of like, I love you, I die for you, but there was also a lot of like, why are you in a room and why aren't you going and do something with your life? And why aren't you, there's a lot of like, you know, in your face judgment.

So I think I always felt comfortable if people came to me and said, like, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you? And I never saw it as, like, like my feelings or I saw it as like, oh, okay, so like you're telling me I need to improve something. Like, that's going to make me better. Now, as I got older, I've recognized that maybe there are healthier ways of doing that than kind of be in your face and abrasive. That doesn't

always work. So I've always, I've always been honest with people and I've always, wanted people to be honest with me. And if I ever felt that there was a fake connection, it would make me really unsafe and uncomfortable, like you're hiding something for me. Or, you know, I hated that. But I think as I got older, I learned to communicate better. Yeah, a little softer, really, edges. Softer, more productive. And yeah, and I think that's again, you know, you got to, you can't, no one wants to work with someone who's an asshole. No one wants to follow someone who's an asshole.

But also no one wants to follow someone who's inauthentic and a liar and just like a politician. Right. You know, like you don't trust that person. At Tinder, I would always say, like, I'll never trust is when someone is vulnerable with me and says, I don't know how to do that. So, like, if my team would come to me and say, if I gave him a task and they would say, I don't know how to do that, that was rewarded. Love you.

I'm here to help you. Let's figure it out. But if someone said, I got it, right? And deep inside, like, fuck, I have no idea what they're doing it. And then they go on and mess up. Well, then I can't trust you. Yep. Right?

So trust is built through vulnerability, through my transparency, through honesty, in a relationship, in a company, you have to have trust, and you can't have trust without vulnerability. No, it's true. And without really hard conversations. Absolutely. Like, I do kind of think that your bank account becomes a reflection of how many difficult conversations you're willing to have. Yes. And it's tiring. And how much difficulty you're willing to endure.

Yeah, exactly. Well, and how many sycophants you let stay around you as you get more successful. Yeah. You know, I think one of the most hard parts about continuing to run company is, is people tell you what you don't want to hear all the fucking time if you're doing it right.

So does the market, which is a real blast. But I do think that's how you get better as a human. Which is why the game of business is so incredible, sort of like the game of relationships. Both of them are one of the

fastest scalples to like cutting yourself into the type of human you want to be, it seems like. And I think I was always like very soliciting the feedback. It's like, give me more, give me more, give me more.

And I think that's what created this very, special culture or Tinder where everyone felt like they had a voice and everyone felt included and everyone felt empowered and like they weren't hiding and they can it was very meritocratic in that sense it's like you know rank didn't matter ideas matter I love that you know how do you feel about hierarchical cultures one line of communication versus distributed cultures and multiple lines of communication from a leadership perspective? I think your companies that believe that the best ideas come from the top are foolish.

And if you're not creating an environment where you're sucking information up, right, from the customer up. Like for me, I, like, we had, I mean, we had people who started a Tinder as an intern, and within a few months ended up running an entire team. That's amazing. And the simple reason is like, okay, you were allowed to come into my office or go talk to anyone. We didn't have rank or rigidity. We had structure. We had kind of like, kind of think of it as like in a sports analogy.

We knew what the goal was. We knew what success was. And we all knew what our role was. and we had trust that we're each going to play our role. But at the same time, there was nothing wrong with someone saying, hey, I'm playing this role, but I actually think I could do something great over here and we're ignoring this, and I could help us win if I could go do that.

And it's like, great, go do it. Like if you have a plan, you have a great idea, I don't care who you were. I don't care how much experience you had. We really, and that's the environment everyone wants to work at. No one wants to be a cog in a machine. Everyone wants the freedom to express, but you also have to have respect, right? So as much as we had this open culture where anyone can critique each other, marketing was

able to go to product and say the product you built sucked, product was able to go to marketing and say, you don't really represent the product I built well, and there was no offense taken. As much as we had that and that made us better, that tension, we also had a ton of respect. Like, I respect that this is your call to make. I'm going to be honest with you. So I would always say as a leader at Tinder, like your job was to get everyone's feedback.

Your job is to make the call. But if you're not getting all the feedback and all the data points, then you're not making a great call. And if you undermine someone because of, their identity, their age, their experience, and you're actually not a great leader or listener, right? It's like you want to empower everyone to rise up and be the best they can. And that's when everyone succeeds.

Were you guys all in the office together? Yeah, absolutely. How do you feel about remote versus being able to be able to? I struggle with this a lot. Remote works for certain things, and maybe it works after you sort of have your, groove, but I think it's very hard to build a culture remotely. It's hard to innovate remote. It's hard to have those honest conversations, you know? So I think remote doesn't work for a lot of

things. It works for some things, but it doesn't work for a lot of things. And we definitely wouldn't have built Tinder if we were remote. That's for sure. I also am not convinced it makes people happy. No, I mean, why would it? I think people think that it does. Want to be on an island by yourself? Yeah. Who said I'm so happy, kind of like drop me off in the middle of nowhere on an island by myself? Put me on Zoom calls because that helps.

Yeah, put me on Zoom calls. I have no interaction, no growth. And, you know, again, it goes like, great. We're promoting individuality and freedom and everything. But if you use that individuality and freedom to isolate yourself, it's probably a horrible idea. Path to Misery. So I talk a lot about business buying and I get a lot of questions about it. One of the most common ones is where do you find a business to buy? My answer is sad because the worst deals are oversaturated marketplace sites, but the best deals are off market or curated

deals. Either way, finding a business to buy usually kind of sucks. I think it should suck less, actually. So that's why we invested millions in this company. It's called Biz Scout, a business buying marketplace full of the best deals for both on and on. market businesses. It's brand new. It's built different. And we've got verified buyers. So what does that mean? That means the best sellers that are actually interested in listing will get responses. We've got scout sites, aka at a glance, what's the quick analysis of this deal? We've got off-market data so you can get all the info you need to do direct outreach efficiently. We've got embedded lending so you can get your own financing for the business right where you buy it. Biscount is brand new.

So go check it out because we're going to be adding so many features over the coming years. And I hope that in the future with you guys and your feedback, we change the face of Main Street buying and selling and turn a few thousand more people into owners while we do it. Because you're a big deal listener, you actually get some goodies. So go to the link in the show notes if you want to see Biz Scout and if you want to think about buying or selling a small business. I actually stand by this decision. I had a chance to invest in Robin Hood way back of the day, but I'm glad I didn't because that is one platform that I actually do not think is, better for society. I think it is worse. I could see that. Yeah. And so, um, yeah.

Yeah. I don't think there is anything good that comes from day trading or rapid action stock investing. I agree. And I think that game of fine, the stock market that way is buying large really bad for society. I was, I was day trading when I was 16. Wow. Took like my barmits for money. And I, and I took like $5,000 and grew it into a million. What the fuck? Yeah, day trading. And then I lost. at all. Oh my. So I think you should.

Day trading, high risk, high risk business. Did you cry? I was really sad. It was actually my grandma, my grandma was like, sell it, sell it, sell it, sell it, walk away, walk away, because I was trading penny stocks, which is like the highest risk shit you could do. And like, a few of them hit, and I was like, holy shit, I just made a million dollars. This is insane.

And my grandma's like, sell it, sell it. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. This is going to keep going up. and then it all went to zero. Wow. That is how that goes. That's the commercial for Robin Hood. Wow.

You got, well, and you did better than most people do. I learned. I learned. And then you never day traded it again? No. No. Yeah, that's probably a good last day. It's a stressful game.

It's a very stressful game. Very stressful game. Well, you've had my friends who are hedge fund managers. I used to sit on the board of one of their hedge funds. I'm like, this is awful. Horrible. You know, instant liquidity, intraday stress, intrassecond stress? Yeah.

You can't even like sit and have lunch. No. What's about to happen? The only thing that's like slightly almost as bad as that or maybe worse is being a CEO of a public company. I can't think of a fucking thing worse, actually. Fires. Fires. Yeah, I think my life for the most part is inner was wake up, take a breath, take my phone,

and be like, all right, what fire, fire, fire, fire. I bet. I got to put out there's always something. Yeah. And then the problem is you've got all these. perverse incentives because short-term goals, long-term goals, shareholders, that's a tough game. Different personalities, different, you know, getting everyone to come together, deal with their differences, sort of.

No doubt why more people are going public later. Because I think if you had a chance, like if you could do it again, would you have, you guys probably needed the capital. No, I think we followed a good course. You did. How long were you from start to IPO? Six years by the time we IPO was, I think. Yeah, Tinder was a very, very fast journey.

I think if I, you know, one thing I tell a lot of people is this idea that a business has to do this. Just like an unhealthy idea. Some of the greatest businesses grew one day at a time slowly. And that's how all businesses grow, right? And, you know, if I had the choice of rocket ship over six years or maybe something that's a little more balanced over 12 years, I probably would pick a little more balanced over 12 years because, you know, it's not for the fate and of heart when something building any company is hard. It's just a lot harder when you're going at the speed of light. Yeah, and everybody's watching you. Everyone's watching you, everyone's critiquing you, everyone's attacking you.

Yeah. You know, it's not, it's, yeah, really, really tussed you. Yeah, my dad always had the best line about entrepreneurship because he played the small business owner entrepreneur forever. It sounds like kind of like your dad. Yeah. And, you know, and he would always say higher levels, bigger devils. That's true.

More money, more problems. Yeah, in the famous words, it was that biggie? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Yeah. Show how not cool I am now. We're asking you if I'm a nerd. I don't know the lyrics to that song. Yeah, I think, you know, I don't think it's easy.

I do think it's worth it. And we kind of shared a love over this idea of community small businesses. People getting back into their small local businesses. Do you want to blow up your local L.A. coffee or tea shop? Are we going to keep that private? Keep that private. Oh, gosh. Well, we can talk about it.

Well, I'm investing in a local coffee shop because I love coffee. Yeah. And I love the team. And I love what they're doing. And I think I was telling you, it's like the enjoyment and love I'm getting from two coffee shops. Which are tiny, right? Which are tiny. I mean, like, it's weird.

It's like, yeah, I built this massive company, hundreds of millions of users all over the world. And, you know, but I like these two coffee shops, like the joy is equal. You know, it's like put the money aside, the passion, the joy, the camaraderie, that's what it's about. And, you know, you don't have to be a massive company to have that. And I think that's, that, you know, I often say this to people, like, I'm very fortunate, very grateful for what I have and what I've achieved. But at the same time, I would give up so much of it just to go back to the early days of, building Tinder. That's crazy. Because like, yeah, the energy, the love, the camaraderie, the, the, like, that is the greatest high. And you could feel that if you're building a local coffee

shot, you could feel that if you're, if you're doing something philanthropic, it's all about connecting, you know, it's, it's all about love. It's like when you're flowing and doing something you love with people you love, there's no greater gift. Yeah, I also think there's really something cool about being able to touch it. That's why I love small businesses. You're like, that's mine. Right there. It's in my local community.

I can engage with it. And sometimes with tech, harder to touch. With finance, harder to touch in some ways. And I do think we do a huge disservice for telling people these days that, hey, unless you get Silicon Valley cash, unless you go VC-backed,

unless you're on the cover of Forbes, you're not a success. Huge disservice. And like, how many friends did you have coming up? Did you watch? Never make it. I mean, I'm the only one of all my friends who's done something of this scale. And it doesn't mean I'm happier.

You know, it, you know, I've done, I've done something of the scale, but I also took on way more pain. So there's no right answer. I mean, it's like, look, at the same time, I think we want to all be ambitious. But ambition doesn't mean take, take, take, make a lot of money, right? I think when you cultivate this attitude of I want to create value, I want to give value to my community, I want to do something I love and share it. And yeah, I want to make money for it, but like, and the money matters because I want to like put that back into doing. more of what I love. Yeah.

That like circuitry, that flow, that's the magic. But like when you have this attitude of like, I want to make more money and like accumulate wealth and then go buy a yacht and like everyone's going to come kiss the ring and do all this shit or like buy the Ferrari and whatever, you're going to end up pretty miserable. I know, you know, I know I didn't grow up with money. I know a lot of people have a lot of money. And there's absolutely no.

correlation with money buying you happiness. I think at a certain point, you know, money will buy you happiness because it gives you freedom, but then there's total diminishing returns. So chasing that is like the wrong focal point. Chase giving, chase meaning, chase purpose, chase love, chase camaraderie, and then the money will flow in. And or it may not. It would fine too, as long as you could support yourself and, you know, afford freedom. But I think this obsession with the reason I become an entrepreneur is to make money is just, it's wrong. The reason I become an entrepreneur is to solve a problem I really care about. And I need money to solve that problem. And I want to be rewarded. Money is the currency oftentimes that shows that I

I'm creating value and offering value. But like, it's like money's also a false idol. It's like don't worship idols. Worship something greater, love. And I think being in business is just such a cool chance to see what you're capable of. Yeah. I don't think there's anything more fun than trying to see what can I ring out of this. Like what else I got in there?

I don't know. Absolutely. And like, let's see. And let's take it. And maybe what I got is an incredible coffee shop that I'm obsessed with. and I get to know all my local members and create this beautiful experience. And that is like ringing a drive for me. Well, I will say, no matter what you're doing at what scale,

you want to push to the edge of discomfort. Because complacency and stagnation is death. And if you're not challenging yourself, you're going to feel a little dead inside. So whether it's financially, whether it's with your passion, Even if it's like one coffee shop, right? Push the limit. What more can you do? Innovate.

Like, extend yourself. Think bigger. And you might take some loss or take some pain, but still, at least you're living. Yeah, 100%. Plus, it's so fun. I mean, with our teams right now, we're back in an office in Austin. And there's nothing like that first start, this little business that we have is new. it's only like three years old in the media company, and we're all in the office together.

And it's a cool, tiny office, and you know everybody's name in the company. And like, the sad part is, is if you've never had a business before, when you're first in that, you don't actually realize, oh, this, like, this little moment right here is so magical. That's everything. Yeah. It's like the first walk of the toddler. Yeah. Like, you don't get it back.

You don't get it back. Cherish it. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I'd go back if I could. Yeah, it's fascinating. One of the most depressing and rewarding days of my life was I walked into the elevator and it was like the first time one of our employees walked in and I was like, I don't know

you like, hi, I'm Sean. It's like, I didn't even know who hired the person. Like we got so big. I'm like, in the beginning it's like I hired every single person. I knew everyone. And it's like that camaraderie, that connection, that love. And it's hard to. to keep that as you scale.

I mean, that's the challenge. That's the goal. But, yeah, you've got to cherish what you have. Like, being small is not bad. Did you ever have a moment where somebody knew, didn't know you? I guess. In the come, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, had some funny moments. I had some really funny moments.

I had a moment where someone asked me if I could fix a printer. Like, I think they thought I was the IT person. I actually ended up fixing the printer. And then they found out I was the CEO. And literally everyone was fucking with him. But he was like so nervous. Like, oh my gosh, I asked the CEO to fix a printer. Like, I mean, I was just, we were all laughing about it.

But yeah, it's, I mean. That's got to be a weird point, the company. I've never had that one yet. Weird. Hopefully you will soon. Jeez. Again, bittersweet. Bittersweet stuff.

Okay, I want to play some fun weird games. You ready? Yes. Careful. You said that very easily. You don't know what kind of game it is. But I don't think you're going to hate this one. Okay.

Okay. So while you actually are, it's very goofy, this is Rachel's idea. We'll blame Rachel for this one. All right. I'm going to give you business ideas to start in 2024. Okay. You're going to tell me if we should swipe right or swipe left on the. Okay. Let's go. But first you have to tell me because I'm so old and I've never used it. Which ones? Yes. And which one's no. Right is yes. Left is no. Right is yes. Left is no. Okay. We'll see if I can get this. All right. These were submitted by a bunch of people online to see which ideas Sean likes. Okay. All right. We're just going to go right over these. Virtual reality meditation retreats. Swipe right, but very hard to get right. Okay.

Blockchain-based voting system for corporate decisions. Swipe left because it's a pipe dream. Great. Personalized nutrition plan app using DNA. analysis? Swipe right, but it already exists. Oh, interesting. Are you invested in it? No, I passed on it, but there's a few people doing this. All right. Okay. Why'd you pass? I just wasn't sure the market was big enough. Interesting. A.I-powered personal stylist app. Swipe left. Interesting. Why? Because I think it's not something AI would be really good at, and I think there's certain things you're not going to create

is AI is not there. Yeah, it's not going to be the share wardrobe. No. And also, it's a, it's, most people don't have this problem. It's a small problem. Yeah, plus a cheap problem. Like, I don't know, you either have to have a few amount of people pay you a ton. Exactly. A lot of people are probably not going to pay at all.

Yeah. Now, human stylists, good idea. Okay. Subscription based exotic pet rental service. In theory, cool, but probably it makes a lot more sense for me. to go somewhere to see the exotic pet. I don't think you want to rent it and put into your house. So, I mean, it exists.

It's called zoo. Yeah. So I would say swipe left. No alligators on speed dial. Okay. Are there any businesses right now because you're actively investing that you're like, God, I'm really interested in somebody doing X, Y, Z? I think businesses that are creating experiences in the real world for us to come together

are very good ideas because we talked about this. I think more than ever we are craving real-world experiences with friends, and that space hasn't really been disrupted. Of course, we have our museums, we have our restaurants, but I think we haven't sort of reached the point of creativity and imagination on all the different circumstances and reasons. we can come together. So I think businesses that are creating community are going to be adopted very quickly.

Yeah. Like the real world's community. Like the Disneyland of 2024? Yes. Yeah. In very niche ways. Yes. Interesting.

New ways of coming together. So when I first asked you why you're even willing to do interviews again after being offline for forever, we kind of talked about maybe some concerns about society. And like you're like, I want to talk about bigger things. Do you want to talk a little bit about why you were interested in coming online again and maybe a little bit about what you see in the world that you want to push back on? Part of it is like my wife because she's like, I'm tired of listening to you. Like I talk to other people.

So, because I have like a lot of my mind is a bit of a storm of thoughts and ideas. And you want to beat them up publicly. Yeah. And I think you got to get it out. You got to express. But part of it is because I do think, and we talked about some things that are not obvious and we could go into the wrong direction. You know, meritocracy versus bureaucracy or meritocracy versus communism, communistic ideologies. independence versus community and togetherness, like top-down leadership versus bottoms-up leadership.

I think there are, sometimes I get depressed by some of, you know, the things I see, and I just feel like I'll feel better if I at least can say my piece on some of these topics. We didn't get into politics. you probably shouldn't get into politics. It's the wrong venue, but I think a lot of these ideologies metastasize into politics. And one thing I will say about politics is that I think we take for granted how brilliant our founding fathers were. And I think we assume that what they were experiencing or fighting against was an old thing.

rather than taking the viewpoint that America is so beautiful, so remarkable, so amazing. Our founding fathers are like the OG fathers, founders, you know, like they're the founders we should celebrate. And the ideas, the vision that they had are still relevant today. And America is very fragile. And what happens here impacts the entire world. We are the beacon. And I think we all need to take a little more time to think through concepts rather than just grabbing them and latching on to them.

And a little more individual thought, a little more stepping back and asking questions and researching and learning and understanding and discussion and a little less of polarity. And like, you belong to that camp and I belong to this camp. So I don't want to hear what you have to say. Cancel you. cancel you. Like one of the most beautiful things that made America is freedom of speech, freedom of debate. And like we were talking about with Tinder, it's like we had this honest, open environment and through that we got better because we can discuss, we could disagree, and we can find a deeper truth. So I think sometimes just like our political environment

is really depressing and backwards and not the energy that creates. to this amazing country you live in. Yeah, you know, did you see Naval's quote the other day? I really liked it. He said something along the lines of like the real tax is politics demanding that otherwise productive humans pay attention to it today. Mm-hmm. And I think that's true in some ways because whether or not you care about politics or not,

politics today cares about you. Absolutely. And I think we all need to care more. and I pray that more people participate and in productive ways. Like, look, once upon a time our politicians were not professional politicians. They were people who were doing one thing but felt a calling. You know, sometimes the best leaders are the ones that don't want the job. They do it for a greater reason.

It's not because like they're pursuing that that job. And now we're in an environment where you have a lot of professional politicians. And I think we need a new energy. Not saying professional politicians are great too. I mean, look, that takes a skill. There's like, that's amazing. But I think like people are demanding more authenticity, more realness, more representation, more. And the only way to do that is like we got to all get involved.

Like we got to participate in productive. ways, in peaceful ways, and not in a way of antagonizing another side, but in a way of expressing our views and inviting feedback and wanting to discuss, because the opposite of that is bureaucratic. The opposite of that is an attack on free speech. There's just great quote that I think a lot about. It's one of my favorite quotes going up for. from Winston Churchill. He said, courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, but courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. And I think a lot of people embody one side of that, but they don't embody both. And strength is both. Yeah, I think there's a lot of easy points to be

gotten today, too, on social media by galvanizing, quote unquote, your side. And I think it's hugely toxic. And I've seen people that I respect so much and so many people. And I respect so ways come out and say, I mean, I saw one of a gentleman that I respect on Twitter the other day. He said, he said, I talked to MAGA so you don't have to. And then inserted a bunch of like ludicrous text exchanges he had with a member of this particular side or party or affiliation or whatever you want. And I just ask the question, what do you hope to get from this? Because you don't want to get to know what 50% of the country thinks on one side or the other side.

Or you dismiss. Or I mean, it's the craziest thing to lump half of the country on either side. Either. Label them, dismiss them, and say you're not even worthy of a discussion. And dehumanize them. And dehumanize. It is horrible. That is horrible.

That's not, that's not, this country was created on debate, on healthy debate on different perspectives coming together for a greater good. And you're not going to get that with political. division and name calling and writing off people and picking a side. No, it's true. But I really made sure that I didn't unfollow him because I read a statistic that one side versus the other, I won't say which, doesn't actually follow anyone from the other side. And that is so dangerous because then you never get that competition of ideas that leads to a

sharp vein of a diamond, right? Exactly. Great, great analogy. And I think it's really sad that that's what's happening. And, you know him, I don't, but I have a lot of respect for Elon for allowing this marketplace of ideas to exist. And is there crazy stuff on there that I don't agree with? Yes.

Actually, horrific things on there. Same, I agree. I mean, you're Jewish. There's stuff on Twitter about Judaism that I think is abhorrent. Yeah, a lot of anti-Semitism. Yet I would protect their right to say it. The same as I would, them to say bad things about Catholics or women or whatever. because as long as we're not inciting violence, we have to believe in this idea of free speech.

Absolutely. I mean, look, violence is where it stops, right? It's where it stops. Right. Like if you're promoting pain or you're endorsing hurting someone, like fuck off. Yeah. Right? But if you're expressing your views, even if I vehemently disagree with them, I'd rather you express them so I can talk to you about why I disagree.

rather than let you silently, you know, think something that is incorrect. So it's like, oh, sunlight is the best disinfectant. It's true. And I think that that is true. And like, there's a reason freedom of speech is the First Amendment. Free speech, free will, you know, individuality, God, family, community. You know, these are some of the values that America was created on unity, respecting our differences, finding the common good. And it was very much in response to a bureaucratic structure that said, you know, you are in a place in society and you can't move. And there is no meritocracy. you know, America is the greatest meritocracy ever.

And I think we discount how important meritocracy is to innovation, to growth. And, you know, meritocracy being like, no matter who it's coming from, the best ideas rise to the top. And those who work the hardest and make the biggest contribution are the ones who should be recognized and rewarded. not rewarding based on some place you sit in society or some identity. So I think identity politics is really bad. It's just it's- You ever get in trouble with that here in California to people push back on you saying things like that?

No, because I think, I think, look, diversity is a beautiful thing. And like, I'm so appreciative that I live in California, which is a very diverse place. And I grew up in a diverse environment. And, you know, Tinder was very diverse. and I'm diverse. I'm diverse. I'm diverse. From the Middle East? Yep. My parents came here with like nothing, you know, but that's, but again, that's what's beautiful about America, right? My parents came here with nothing as immigrants. They didn't

speak English. They speak Farsi. They speak Farsi. And they spoke a little English. And they were able to, rather than being suppressed for who they are, they were able to rise up on work hard pursue a dream and if they succeeded, great, and if they failed, they didn't blame someone. They blamed themselves. They took accountability and responsibility.

And that is like at the core of what America is about. And I think we can never forget that. And just like, you know, great companies are built that way. Great teams are built that way. And you can't have meritocracy without freedom of speech because if I'm not willing to listen or have your ideas, you know, we're not having to have an marketplace of ideas, then the best ideas will just not be heard. Yeah, it's absolutely true.

And who gets to say? That's always my problem with free speech. You're maybe more understanding than I am. I don't always want to talk to some people that have ideas that I find pretty important. Sometimes I will, but sometimes I think, no, that's okay. That's somebody else is crossed to bear. But I don't want anybody telling me whose ideas should be listened to and shouldn't. Absolutely.

Line in the sand. And I think Iran is a perfect example of what happens if you allow that. Absolutely. Talk about that country in the 60s and 70s. And then what happened during the revolution? Well, it was under the shot. Iran was becoming very westernized. You had a desire to innovate.

You had sort of this idea of the idea of the, individual, sort of you had a sort of, you were looking at America and saying, oh, we want the American dream. And we want the ability for small businesses, for people to grow in any direction and but still have this common sense of identity. And then that was under attack by religious fundamentalism that said, no, you can't be whoever you want. You've got to be this. And if you're not this, we're going to persecute you. Anytime you see that, like look throughout history, whenever you've had one group say, if you're not this, you're bad, that leads to poverty, fighting, war. And that's what's special in America. This is not, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's

the land of the home of the free and the brave and, you know, be who you want and pursue your own path. And it doesn't mean I need to agree with you, but I'm not going to like suppress you, not going to prevent you from being who. Unless you hurt someone, then fuck off. You know, then I'll, then I'll show up and I will, and I will, you know, I'll protect my family. Well, that's when we have the second amendment to protect the first. Exactly. Exactly. Sean, this was amazing. Thank you for you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.