BigDeal - #85 AI CEO: How To Make A $10M Business With AI Employees (Amjad Masad, CEO @ ‪Replit‬)

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

In this episode, host Codie Sanchez sits down with Amjad Masad, CEO of Replit, to discuss the transformative potential of AI in the tech industry. Amjad shares his journey from coding at age six in Jordan to leading one of the fastest-growing AI companies. He offers insights into overcoming entrepreneurial challenges, the importance of non-conformist thinking, and how Replit empowers individuals to create applications without coding skills. Learn how AI can revolutionize business, the future of AI talent, and why Amjad believes the United States remains the best place for entrepreneurship. Want help scaling your business to $1M in monthly revenue? Click here to connect with my consulting team. 00:00 Introduction and Excitement for AI 00:49 Early Beginnings in Coding 02:26 Turning Down a Billion Dollar Offer 05:55 Challenges and Pivots in Business 10:18 Repl.it's Revolutionary Impact 14:40 Empowering Entrepreneurs with AI 31:58 The Future of AI and Prompting 37:38 Leadership and Talent Wars in AI 48:13 The Risks of Joining a Startup 49:05 Government Policies and Innovation 49:46 The Role of WhatsApp Groups in Tech 50:34 Competing with Big Tech 51:14 The Importance of Direct Communication 51:31 Challenges of PR and Media Coverage 53:10 The Underdog Mentality 56:05 Building a Venture Scale Company 57:02 The Culture of Silicon Valley 57:59 Operating Principles and Company Culture 59:02 The Importance of Seeking Pain 01:05:45 Mentorship and Lifelong Work 01:14:10 The Human Experience and AI 01:25:47 The Future of AI and Society 01:27:16 The American Dream and Entrepreneurship MORE FROM BIGDEAL: 🎥 YouTube 📸 Instagram 📽️ TikTok MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ: 🎥 YouTube 📸 Instagram 📽️ TikTok OTHER THINGS WE DO: Our community Free newsletter Biz buying course Resibrands CT Capital Main St Hold Co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my out of office has a forever setting. An IG Private Wealth advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IG Private Wealth.com.

A lot of companies pay tens of thousands of dollars for software you can generate a Rapplet for $5 literally. You are going to love this episode. It is with Amjad Massad, who is the CEO of Rupplet, one of the fastest growing AI companies out there. He is going to blow your mind and maybe help you blow up your bank account. Before everyone in the world learns that this technology exists, you have a moment where it's like an opportunity to capture a lot of value from it. Do you think that it is now possible for a single individual in the case of, of a few weeks who has zero coding experience to build a million dollar business with Replit. Yeah.

So we have wild. I was talking to someone who works in venture capital. He goes into Replit building his dream platform to manage his investments. He got commitments for 5 million ARR before he quit his job. Wow. Now more than ever, finding businesses that are running inefficiently and going into these businesses and figure out where to plug NAI and make it a lot more. profitable even without growing.

Welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez. Today, if you want to make money online and you want to do it building with code and are curious about AI, but even if you've never coded before, buckle up for this episode because I'm obsessed. So I've been so excited for this podcast because I'm sort of a tech Neanderthal, but I've been going down a rabbit hole of AI. I hired a guy who's actually good at it. And it almost feels to me like there's a world before I realized all the things we could do online, and now there's a world afterwards. And almost everything my employees do, everything I do in business, I'm like, wow, why are we doing it the way we did last year?

Because it almost doesn't make sense anymore. And what's crazy to me about you is you figured this out at like six? I think, like, is it a true story that when you were six years old in Jordan, you were already coding and building software apps? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my father got a computer before anyone I knew back in Amman and Jordan in the early 90s. And so one of my really earliest vivid memories was standing behind the shoulders on my dad, kind of unboxing this machine, pulling out this huge manual, open it up.

And you had to read a manual. There's no internets at the time and sort of finger typing on the keyboard. And I was just fascinated by it. This idea that you can like talk to this machine and like convey what you want. want to build and you can build it. I'm still, you know, it's just still gives me goosebumps. So just the idea of like creation, you know, being able to be creative without a lot of resources or, you know, you don't have to build a real physical thing. All you need is this machine. And so I got into it immediately and started building apps. The first thing that I built

was a math teaching app for my younger brother. So it will be like a, you know, formula, you know, one plus one equals blank. He puts in two. He gets a clap. He puts in three. He gets a boo. And it worked out. Now he works for me.

Wow. I love that. I don't know what kind of weaies they had in Jordan, but that's like I had, you know, Lincoln logs and Legos. But then, you know, what's kind of crazy is then you had a 180, basically, from that, which is, is it true that afterwards, not so long ago, you actually turned down. a billion dollars as an acquisition price for your company when you only had six employees. What happened?

Yeah. You know, we had started the company in 2016 and the mission behind the company is to create a billion coders, billion programmers, billion developers, whatever you want to call it. And I just felt in my heart of hearts that we're at a point where anyone can make software. I felt like the AI is progressing really fast, just cloud systems. Everything that was coming online made it so that anyone could really be able to do this thing that have fundamentally changed my life. You know, got me from Jordan and a sort of lower income family all the way to the U.S. become an entrepreneur, joining Y Combinator, the most prestigious startup accelerator.

And in 2018, just after we did Y Combinator, we kind of bootstrap for a couple of years. then we did a Y Combinator. Maybe 2019 we got this acquisition offer from a really big, big company. And obviously, it was a lot of money. And I didn't have a lot of money at the time. But I just felt like they're going to take the company, not going to do anything interesting with it. And I'll make the money.

And maybe I'll quit two or three years after that and create the same company. So I thought, I like this company. I might as well keep going. And I always felt like if we get to a point where we achieve even 1% of our mission, this could be a much bigger company. And, you know, we achieved that valuation a few years ago. And the company is probably valued more today. Walk me through that moment.

So you're like, you get an offer. You meet a guy. I don't know how it works. Yeah. And did you seriously contemplate it? Were you like, I need to sleep on this? Yeah, yeah, I did. I didn't like a knee-jerk reaction, kind of like a billion dollars.

I'm just going to. And I talked to our investors. and I remember talking to Mark Andreessen, who's invented the web browser, Netscape, and he's now running Andreessen Horowitz, a very prestigious investment firm. They had just invested in Rapplet. He goes, look, we'll pocket the profit.

You know, who's just invested in you and we're going to make a lot of money. But what do you want? Like, what are you going to do afterwards? Do you want to go work for this big tech company and become like corporate employee? Or do you want to keep going on your mission? And I talked to a bunch of other people.

And I kind of felt like the weight of Silicon Valley was on my shoulder. Like everyone really believed in what we're doing. And I didn't want to let people down. I also just kind of didn't want to let our users down, our customers, our dreams. And I also felt like I have the kind of skills to always be able to make good living. And I think, you know, we all know that. after certain level of wealth, your life doesn't really change all that much. And so I like money.

I don't want to make it seem like I think money is a great thing. I think gives you a lot of freedom and comfort in order to achieve more things. And I think the thing that I'm most attracted to is building great things. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, it's not like now, Replet seems like this gargantuan. right like a hundred million in annual recurring revenue i look at your little chart and just whoa i mean it's pretty wild to look at but it took you nine years to even get to your first 10 million dollars in revenue right like you you weren't really making any money at all for multiple years you were burning cash

that's right first your own then a little bit of yc then a little bit of third party investors it's not like this was an overnight success at all and so i i'm curious did you ever have a moment where you were like we are not going to make it and I'm not good enough and this company's not going to work out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean in 2024, early 2024, so last year, the company had not been growing all the much. We're actually kind of hit a plateau and started decreasing a little bit. So we were in this awkward position where we make it easy enough to get started but not enough to get you all the way to building a business or a real piece of software. and because our focus is on getting everyone to make applications, anyone with a dream without any skill or background computer science

should be able to come to Replit and make an app that was always the core of the mission. We're also not very good for professional developers because they needed all these tools that we didn't have. And so we were in this awkward middle and not making any revenue and have this really large staff, 130 people, had raised $200 million.

And as you know, you know, you talk about it in the book, like, you know, there are businesses that you could build that provide a lot of, you know, profits and good living for yourself and you have complete, you know, control of what you do. But once you take on venture capital, there's almost a contract you're implicitly kind of getting into, which is I'm going to build a billion dollar company. This is, I'm going to build something really scalable, really big.

And I take that responsibility seriously as well. So I felt like the only way to really achieve our mission and for the business to take off is to invent an automated coder so that you go to Rapplet and you really don't have to learn to code at all. And so we lay off almost half the team. We move out of San Francisco because San Francisco is such a bubble. I'm sure kind of LA is the same here. But everyone's talking all the time. There's FOMO all the time. like parties and we move out of San Francisco, we go down to the South Bay, we get, we get this

office in the suburbs, and we're like, okay, we're going to spend three, four months trying to invent this new thing. And we felt that technology is sort of getting there in terms of AI. And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, like, I don't know what I'm going to do afterwards, maybe look for an acquisition or something like that. And it wouldn't have been a pretty nice acquisition. It wouldn't have been a billion dollar acquisition. So we, we, we, we, start building it. And I think even two weeks in, we felt like we had something that could change the world. And so we launched in September, 2024, and it was the first coding agent on the market where you can just like put a prompt and it will like make you an application and will create a

database for you. It will like put it out, deploy it and scale it for you, do all of that. And it went viral. We just put out like a small video, very low production on cell phone and it went super viral and a revenue that year climbed to 10 million ARR. And then when we got out of beta

and the agent got really good, that's when we went to 100 million ARR in a matter of six, seven months. That's wild. You know, what's interesting though and why I was so attracted to what you do is because it could sound corny to say I want to create a billion coders.

You know, you're like, okay, Silicon Valley, typical mission, put a billion in front thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Except I've used the product and like not an ad, you know, but it's incredible, especially for somebody who's really not tech advanced. And I really associated to it because I think, you know, our mission at Contrary in thinking is to create millions of owners. And I think that sounds cheesy to people who would rather have, I don't know, a couple of businesses. billion dollars in assets under management as an investment firm instead. And I think there are a lot of people that say, no, people who want AI just want to concentrate all the power. You're kind of doing the opposite of it. So why don't you explain to people what exactly Replit is and why it's

revolutionary and maybe even how could somebody use it today to change their life? Yeah. Look, technology had always been, have been, had two visions. The massive centralized mega corporation, mega government, surveillance state vision, the dystopian future. You know, that's sort of like the Matrix and all these different movies. But there was always also a vision of the sort of the hacker in their basement that are building an amazing thing or the star founders in their garage or the Bitcoin crypto hackers who can like create systems of money and encryption outside of the control of governments and things like that.

So that vision existed always. And at any given time, with the internet started, it started as this idea of decentralized, empowered the people thing. And then over time, we centralized on kind of a few big tech companies and things like that. And now we're at a moment of time where there could be another shift. And that shift could send us into more centralization or bring back power to people so that we can have more owners, more founders, more entrepreneurs, a more dynamic economy. and this is what I'm really passionate about. So what Replit is, it's an automated AI coder. So everyone has ideas.

Like I talk to people, I talk to Uber Drivers all the time. Everyone has an idea. Everyone is kind of a, everyone in any field, they are domain experts, right? But they usually do not have the coding skills in order to build an online business. or some kind of business using technology because they don't have the skills. So they usually go and they try to find an agency to do it for them. And they get quoted an enormous amount of money, hundreds of thousands, a million dollars, we say sometimes here. And they give up on that dream because who has that kind of money?

Some people go into debts and they still get screwed by the freelancers and all of that. Or their ideas are, you know, maybe perhaps need a lot of iteration and they don't have the money for it. So you go to Replit, you put in, you know, start with a simplified version of our idea, get an MVP or a prototype, minimum viable product. And you're going to see the AI coder coding in front of you. It'll spend 10 minutes kind of researching, showing you the design. Once you approve the design, it will start building the application. And you'll get a prototype in a matter of 10 minutes.

And then you look at it and I'll say, you know, I like this. It has this functionality. Okay, let's add. you know, let's, you know, let's change the collar of this button, but also let's add an entire new feature to the website. And I'll spend another five minutes working on this and getting it done for you. And then, you know, you can spend weeks building that business and then launching it. And we hear from entrepreneurs that the other day I was talking to someone who works in venture capital.

This is the, you know, the, you know, the, uh, what? I was talking about where everyone has domain knowledge, this VC, he's not even on the investing team, is on the sort of finance team, understands all the problems and woes of managing a portfolio of companies. And they buy all sorts of software, none of the software works for them, right? I'm sure you can relate. And so he goes into Replit, spends weeks, you know, nights and weekends, you know, 40, 50, 60 hours a week building his dream platform to manage his investments. And then he realizes that he has a business

on his hands. And he goes and talks to different finance people at different VC companies. They all have the same problems. And he starts showing them software and everyone's like, we want to buy it now. And he got commitments for 5 million ARR before he quit his job. So in a matter of months, on the matter of weeks, he had a business on his hand, and now he quit his job and he has the contracts and the money is flowing in. So that's everyone has this. Think about it as, you know, when Airbnb came on the scene, they found this asset that wasn't monetized. Everyone has space in their home that wasn't monetized. I think everyone has domain knowledge that is not monetized.

And the way to monetize that domain knowledge to scale yourself, you talk about it in your, book, the difference between an owner and a worker is the worker kind of trades time for money. I think owners often trade experience for scalable experience for money, right? So putting your experience into a piece of software and that can scale to hundreds, perhaps thousands, perhaps millions of customers and are going to be able to make a lot of money. It's so true. I mean, you know, what's interesting is, you know, if somebody's never played with AI before, you know, to me, what it looks like is you just, you kind of write, or I'm, I now am a voice to text, annoying person who uses like whisper flow, and I just, you know,

I just say out loud the things that I like, you know, that I'd like to build. I would like to build, you know, this exact thing. I want to build a, you know, portfolio dashboard, and I want it to look like X, Y, Z, and I'd like it to be monochromatic and there to be, like, very simplistic, you know, buttons and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you sort of iterate on this continuously, and then on the right hand side, and we can show it on YouTube if you guys want to watch the video there, of looks to me because I am not a coder, like what I imagine the matrix might look like in some ways. And so you have multicolored code that's sort of happening. And you can sort of, then you could be over the left watching Real Housewives or whatever show you watch.

And simultaneously, this agent is running. And so you have a little employee for the first time ever that you get for a couple hundred bucks a month. That's right. That kind of does exactly what you want it to do continuously. And so I think you might have just answered this question in some way, but do you think that it is now possible for a single individual in the case of a few weeks who has zero coding experience to build a million dollar business with Replit. Yeah. So we have another entrepreneurism is John Cheney and had this idea. He has some domain knowledge and how to use AI for different kind of things, marketing and storytelling and things like that. But he hasn't coded ever. He hasn't used AI coding tools. And he wanted to build an education platform to do.

AI training, AI training for consumers or AI training for enterprise. So he wanted to build an entire learning management system and seat-based enterprise software. And he did it in a matter of weeks. And he reached a million plus run rate in a matter of weeks. Now, look, I don't want to make it seem easy. And again, on the way here, I was reading your book, which was really inspiring. And in one thing, you say, it's not easy. Entrepreneurship is not easy. And a lot of people, when I come on these podcasts, I've learned that a lot of people think that I'm selling magic. I'm not selling magic. Like, you're going to go there. You're getting, you know, the agent is amazing, right? And it's coding for you. And you can go look at the code if you want to learn how it works and ask it

how this code works or whatever. But you can also be outside of the code and be acting as a manager. And management is hard. You need to think clearly. You need to communicate clearly. And it's going to get frustrating. The agent, the AI is going to make errors and you'll be able to correct it. And it's going to require some resourcefulness. You're probably going to be going to have to do some research. You're going to have to tinker and iterate and spend hours on this. So I think, you know, the people who are successful with entrepreneurship usually have reached a point of their life where something changes in them and either the boss they hate or the stresses of money in their lives or just like the routine work that they hate and they want to change.

They want more threat in their lives. And they make that decision. And they're like, I'm just going to build something for myself. I want to be an owner. And after you made that decision, you're just going to do whatever it takes to get it done. Right. And I think this is where Replit can help you. But you need to have the grits and the persistence in order to do it.

Yeah. Well, I think the other part that's interesting about what you guys have built is Instacart makes grocery shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app, like rotissory chicken that's extra crispy, cheddar that's sharp as your skates, and lettuce you to actually pick yourself.

Just leave a note for your shopper so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way, you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers for CG's national series on the Canadian Standard of Living, productivity and innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it. A lot of people who build AI tools or tools with AI or things to help with coding

historically have been for the sophisticated professional few, which would be similar to finance. It's like in the elite class, you want to speak only to investment bankers. You want to speak only to those on Wall Street. And if you were to normalize finance investing, well, you know, that's too simplistic. That's too low level. And, you know, those people, it's a little bit beneath us to talk to them. And I think a lot of times it seems that there's similarities in engineering. code where it's like, well, vibe coding, which is what what people now call this ability to code

without having deep experience and being an engineer. You just go off vibes. Right. I was trying to, how would you even define vibe coding, which is now what people only talk about vibe coding on X now, I feel like. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So vibe coding, I would say is previously, previously, you know, when you have an idea and you want to turn it into code, right, you're, you're turning business logic into hard mathematical constructs, right? And most of your time is spent on that constructs, on the syntax of doing that, which is not really the problem solving that you want to be doing, right? Programmers spend maybe 10, 10, 20% of their time actually thinking about users, the product, and then they spend 80% of their time fighting with the systems,

figuring out how to deploy it and scale it and run the database and all of that. So we're trying take care of all of this nonsense, right? You don't have to worry about it. And the idea behind vibe code, which I, you know, I don't think it's the best term, but we're kind of stuck with it, is that you, you can trust that the AI is making the right decisions based on the vibes that it's giving you. So you are communicating the business goals that you intend to create. and the system is building this on your behalf. And if the vibes are correct, and if you can test it and feel like it's working,

you can trust that it works. And, you know, 80, 90% of the time it does. So is it a bit like building a house? So like before we knew how to build foundations and we knew how to do, you know, traditional home building, that might have been the unique character trait in a home builder, which is like they can do this thing

that we've never done before. They can make a house withstand over time. They can build it correctly. That is actually the most important part in home building. Whereas now today, we kind of, that's normalized. We've commoditized the fact that, yes, we can build its houses. Yes, they can withstand things. They can function properly.

And now the part that's non-commoditized is essentially design. It's like the people who make the most money are the ones that make the user interface, aka the aesthetic of it. And new functionality on top of it are the ones that get paid more. Is that kind of what you see in the future? before it used to be engineers like, can you even build this? And now it's like, no, no, we could build a lot of things. And now it's just, is it beautiful?

Is it user-friendly? Can you sell it? And the design component becomes even more important. I think your business is a good illustration of this. Like social media and being able to build this show, previously you needed to get on some kind of TV channel, like, you know, 50, 100 years ago, even 20, 30 years ago. You needed some kind of cable channel to, you needed some kind of. a studio to take a bet on you. And now you can go to YouTube two clicks. You have a channel.

And so what's what's left? You know, that's a commodity, right? Like having a presence online is a commodity. What's left is charisma, as creativity, is grit. Again, grit is the thing, right? Like, you have to keep going. You just keep showing up. And a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you that. It's a truism. It's a cliche, but it's true. You have to show up day after day after day, learn, become 1% better every day, which adds up to enormous amount of progress in a matter of month or a year. And if you do that consistently, you're going to be at the top of your game. And we're going to be able to stand away out from the pack because look, most people are lazy.

Most people just don't want to do a lot of work. They're happy with, which is nothing wrong with that. No judgment. Like, you know, a lot of people work hard and they want to, you know, spend time with their, with their family. They don't want to change too much things about their lives. They're probably like happier and more well adjusted than we are. Yeah. I mean there's there's something to that. I think entrepreneurs there's always something either a chip on the shoulder or some some dark past or something like that. One of my friends had the best line. He was like, entrepreneurship is a trauma response. And I was like

you're probably right. That's probably true. Yeah. You feel like you have something to prove or something. Yeah. But it could fundamentally change your life to the better. And I think the, you know, you know, what's, so similarly to YouTube, now in software, in apps, and businessmaking, and online businesses, it is the domain knowledge, I think, is the main thing. If you understand something really deeply, or you can go learn it really deeply,

you can go build a business around it, right? We have stories of people who work on event management. And, you know, this woman, she knows exactly what it needs to create an event, where to find the venue, the caterer, the marketing, the everything. And she created an AI agent

that can go do all of that. You put in a prompt, you'll say, I want to create an event on X, Y, and Z. It'll create a plan. I'll go, you know, get you in contact of the vendors. And she turned a non-scalable business that she had, which is helping people with events to a fully scalable AI solution,

then she get paid for while she sleeps. Yeah, it's wild. One of my biggest annoyances in all my businesses is dashboards. It's always hard to find the exact dashboard how my brain works that I want to see stats because I always want to have like scoreboard-based leadership, right? Like I can tell instantly, are we behind, are we in front? What's happening here?

Yeah, I wake up in the morning, I need to look at my dashboard. Me too. Otherwise, I just end up bothering everybody all the time asking them where shit's at, right? And so if I can see it, I'm like, here's the project management. I can see if you're red, yellow grain, are we moving forward? And also, like, is our business on track or not, et cetera? And so I built one with you guys.

And so anyway, I'll show it here. It's not pretty, and I'm an idiot at this stuff. So you know if I can do it, that anybody can do it. I'm John in every CEO I know who is serious, is obsessed with being able to see their business in one dashboard. You heard him say he couldn't wake up in the morning without looking at the dashboard to figure out if his business was working or not. I'm the exact same way.

I do it all on my phone and something that we call the contrarian operating system. It's a dashboard that we teach people to build in the boardroom step by step so that your business can be seen in 30 seconds whether you're going to hit your goals or not. I think CEOs that run businesses without an operating system and a dashboard is kind of like driving a car high speed down a highway without knowing how fast you're going, without knowing what the GPS says to do. and also without even being able to see if you're in park, neutral, reverse, or drive. And so I am obsessed with what we've built in the boardroom. I think every single business owner is going to want to figure out how to get this operating system and how to get with a group of people who help you implement it. If this is interesting to you, this is all we do in the boardroom is obsess on getting owners

to get to the next level with the tools and team they need to hit their next $10 million in revenue. If that's interesting to you, you can click the link and get to the next. get on a consulting call with my team. So if you're like a young person who hasn't figured out how to make money yet and you don't know what you want to do with your career, but you're curious about this AI thing, what would you tell them to do today? Where does a young person start? I would say, do the same thing that you've always done, you know, get a job, find an industry

you like or your incident in, and go into that. And what you're going to find is massive inefficiencies. People do things still like, you know, they're still fact. is around in many businesses. People use pen and paper for so many things. Old software still exists. You know, there's so many, like, whatever field you go into, just have an eye for what people around you are doing

and what are the things that could be automated or what AI could be good at. And the way to learn what AI could be good at is to spend a lot of time with GPT, spent a lot of time messing around with video AI, messing around with Replett and Code AI, just be plugged into the AI world. And you're going to build an intuition. Just jump into it.

You're going to build an intuition. At the same time, find a real world problem. And the way to do that is to go literally into any domain or incident and just open your eyes and you're going to find a problem to solve. And then solve that problem and sell it to the people. I mean, there's this story. I just want to show also that. Entrepreneurship is not always about taking massive risk, quitting your job and going for broke.

There's this guy, his name's Ahmad George. He works in a skincare company in D.C., and he's responsible for their operations systems. And he realizes that, you know, there's 20, 30, 40 hours a week spend between our team. We'll probably have more people than we need to do these certain operational things, managing information. just the standard stuff. And so he goes to their software provider and asks them, hey, I have this idea on how to automate this. What does it take to make a software like that?

And they quote him $150,000. And he learned about Replit online and he goes in. And in a couple of weeks, he spent like $400 on the AI and he makes a piece of software. He gives it to his colleagues. And they're suddenly cutting it hours down. and he goes to his boss and he was like, look what I did. And, you know, I saved this company this much money. And his boss is now paying him $30,000 a year for the software.

He didn't have to quit his job. He's an entrepreneur within his company. I love that. I mean, I would do the same thing. We actually this week, I told one of our employees that I was coming on with you. And he was like, okay, cool. And it was very simple. We have an event that's coming up.

I told you about it in November. And I was kind of waiting for the team. to build out the event page and get it connected to HubSpot and do all the back of nonsense and get it mocked up and blah blah. And I think the quote I got was like $5,000 or something like that for this website. And he was like, well, just for giggles. So he goes to Replit. He actually puts together like the entire interface of the design that he wants.

And then he used another program. I can't remember what the other one was in order like to actually actualize it and then connect it with with HubSpot. But essentially using two programs, one being Replit, he built the entire website. and he said he took about four and a half hours. I think I was quoted four weeks for it. And it was just with his plan that he already has. $25. Yeah, exactly.

Instead of $4,000 or $5. And so now I find myself very annoyingly to my employees often saying, like, what's our 24-hour rule? You know, anything that used to take weeks, we should just test if we can do it in 24 hours with AI. Because then I don't have to be smarter than anybody else. I don't have to be richer than anybody else. I don't have to be better.

I could just be faster. And like speed wins every business game, I think. And you know, we're at a moment of potential arbitrage, right? Like before everyone in the world learns that this technology exists, it'll probably take five years, you know, people are slow. You have a moment where it's like an opportunity to create a lot of value and capture a lot of value from it. So, you know, thinking about the kind of advice you give your audience around buying businesses

and running profitable businesses, I think now more than ever, finding businesses that are running inefficiently and going into these businesses and figure out where to plug in AI, where to replace SaaS software that's expensive, a lot of companies pay tens of thousands of dollars for software you can generate a replica for $5 literally.

And so you can go into any business and shave off a lot of costs and make it a lot more profitable even without growing it. Yeah. When you guys should tell us in the comments, because you told me, you're like, we should do a hackathon. And I said, well, can we do this simply enough? Or like anybody listening, if we had them for two hours, let's say they could build something. And you said, this is what we do. Yes, at the end of two hours, we will have everybody have built something that is useful, potentially even valuable and monetizable. This is our go to Mark's strategy, actually. Interesting. So you guys, you should tell us in the comments if you guys want us to do a hackathon and we could do one. We could do like a main street every day. I have no idea how to code hackathon.

Yep. But you run these now and they work. Yeah. So we, so for example, HG Capital, a, you know, capital group in Europe has like hundreds of portfolio companies and some of their portfolio companies were using RAPLOT and they were interested in the nets. And so we went there and we ran a hackathon for all of their executives, their CEOs. And, you know, it's CEOs. You know, they're busy. They're probably getting taxes every, you know, two minutes and it's not like they can focus for the entire day. we told them, just give us two hours of your time. And two hours, everyone had applications. And, like, you know, they're so giddy about it. Like, kids, right?

Like, they come and they present what they built. And they're so excited. And that's what I love. It's like there's a human aspect of it. Like, making things is awesome. And so everyone's going to get excited about it. And most people are going to conferred and become users and customers. We've confirmed that we can make money with AI.

And yet, like, You see a future because you saw this, Jesus, back when you were six, but then also you guys saw the vision for Replit really before AI was here at all. And one of the things that you said on, well, X, that you tweeted was that crucially, it won't be prompting. We believe that's more a bug than a feature. In the future, it'll be a combination of AI predicting what task you want done next and doing it for you, plus a dialogue-based agent that follows your commands. Can you explain that to people like, what is prompting?

And also, what do you see the next evolution of this being? So prompting is the craft of creating an instruction for an AI. Right now, Chad ChypT gives you the illusion that you're talking to a person. And it kind of works out for everyday life stuff. But if you want Chad Chypte to go do massive amount of research or build software for you, like in the case of Rapplet or help you build a business, You'll be very precise. And often you need to do these psychological tricks.

Like tell you're world-class experts and laundromat business ownership. And I'm sure you've done this with Chad Chip. And then you basically get the AI to assume a sort of different character for the purpose of that conversation in order to give you more relevant information. right. A lot of people who've used Google for many years know how you also have this stuff works. But that's that that's also still a little awkward and that's how not how we work and the way we work. I think my vision for working with the AI should be like working with a colleague. You don't go prompt your, you know, you might give them a pep talk to your employees, but you're world-class expert. You imagine how awkward that would be.

But the, you know, what we're trying to work towards is for us to do the prompting for you. So having another AI kind of take your, take your what you've said and kind of, you know, transforming it in a way to give it to another AI pre-prompted. But right now it would help. Like if you go to YouTube, we have our YouTube channel. It has some information on prompting. So I would suggest people learn prompting right now. Yeah.

But I think the way in the future is the most important thing is going to be clarity of thought, being able to translate complex ideas into simple bullet points and paragraphs, what we call and kind of tack PRD, product requirement documents, and being able to have systems thinking, which I think is a very useful tool. and I think it's something you can learn is really how do you break up large ideas, large concepts into smaller components that you can work on them in isolation. So for any business you want to build, for any tool you want to build out your business,

it probably has a lot of different components, different pages, different. And that's the essence of system thinking. And so you can know that you can work on this component in isolation. Once I'm done with that, I need to go to the next component. and here's how I'm going to break up my app or my database into all these different things.

And these are skills that can be learned. Like I would go to chat GPD and spend a few hours learning some of these skills, you know, teach me how to be a better systems thinker, how to create PRDs, how to be a better communicator. But all this stuff will get easier in the future. That's a great point, though, because you literally use the tool to get better at the tool.

Yes. And if you can understand sort of first principles of how the tool works in order to make it work better for you, then, you know, that would be like what X would call, you know, God-like prompting or whatever. That's right, that's right. And also getting crisp about what you know. People know a lot of things.

And, you know, I'm sure you've had that experience where someone comes to you for advice and you surprise yourself with advice you're giving them, right? I was like, oh, I don't know how much of an expert I was at this, which is why mentoring is good, not just for the mentee, but also for you. like I like to mentor people because it just reinforces what I know. And so a lot of people do not know what they know.

And I think that skill of taking what you know and converting it into precise documents is very, very important. Interesting. And I think that's the skill of writing. It's very true. I do think you can often tell how good of a thinker somebody is, by the way that they write it. Yeah, writing a book is torture, right? It is. I actually like it.

You know what's the torture on writing a book is the, the marketing of the book. Trying to hit the New York Times bestseller was the most ludicrous, like fake arbitrageting. I wish I could have. Honestly, if I would have, if I could have, I would have. But I didn't, I wasn't intelligent enough to do that. But no, it's a lot of, talk about an outdated system. It's a lot of, well, you need the users not to go to the seven places that all users go to to buy books,

but the 47 places the New York Times actually stack ranks in order to determine that editorially the book is appropriate or not. And so it is, I'm sure there would be a way actually to engineer it now with AI and figure out how to reverse engineer New York Times. That could be a business. Yeah, I'm sure. There's probably somebody that does that for billionaires who write books, you know. I want to talk about, I want to get a little bit into like leadership and tech and talent.

So we're right in the middle of like what appears to me to be like a great AI talent war. I've never seen anything like this. I mean, I have never seen people traded from one company to another for $100 million publicly, you know, or $300 million publicly. I know there was a big drama last week around windsurf, like competitive years, where they were, you know, close to a deal with OpenAI. And then that deal expired. And then Google kind of came in and aqua hired, meaning that they acquired part of the team as opposed to the entire company. and then another company came in and acquired kind of what was left of windsurf. I'm curious, like, one, is this the future in AI and tech talent?

Like, will people be acquiring individual talent instead of entire companies in this area? And like, what is your reaction as a CEO where you're competing for all of this talent, too? Yeah. Yeah. So in corporate America, we've had this concept of salary bans, right? You know, with the rise of HR, actually, you know, there's an interesting graph. You can look up where, you know, HR was basically non-existent over the past 100 years. But as government accumulated all sorts of regulations, HR sort of is an extension of government

in your business in a way. And there was a lot of, I think, good intentions. around discrimination and things like that that made it so that HR people wanted to make sure that everything's equitable unfair. And then there was this, you know, the rise of like Saturday bans. You know, these are the levels and these are the salary bans for them. And that's often based on experience and not based on impact. You can have someone straight out of college. They don't have a lot of experience. Maybe they're not very good at communicating or working with others, which is a required skill. But this spike in one skill.

They're very good programmers, especially like in, you know, very niche thing no one else can do. And that could translate into millions of dollars for the company. And that's very, very different than, then, you know, being a factory worker, which is a post-industrial revolution. That's how the system was built. You're sort of a cog in the machine. You don't have a lot of degrees of freedom unless you go up in the management chain and all that in order to affect real change.

Sports team, and you mentioned that the term traded, you know, you can, you know, get Steph Kerr in your team and put them in, you know, for, you know, five minutes a quarter or something like that and have him shoot a few threes and he'll swing the entire game, right? And, you know, I think in basketball, there's 10 years ago, there's this three-point revolution that happened where everyone realized,

that three-point shooters are way, way more valuable than everyone thought before, because they can really swing the game rapidly. And I think right now it's starting to translate into the business world. Because corporates is like, you know, HR be damned. Like what matters right now is for us to win. For us to win, we need to get the best talent. Those guys that are getting, that meta's buying for hundreds of millions of dollars are getting paid more than the executives, more than the entire command chain together.

And so I think the bet there, and we'll see whether it pays off. The bet that Zuckerberg is making is that in a way, meta needs to pivot. Meta has this asset that's spitting out a ton of cash, which is Instagram, Facebook, their ads kind of networks. But it's in a way a dying asset in many ways. It's a very competitive. At some point, it's going to get fully disrupted. AI is going in. It's already making social media unusable.

like, you know, Instagram is full of like AI slop right now. So is Twitter and others X. And he realizes that he needs to be at the forefront of AI. And he thinks that we're going to reach superintelligence in the next two years. And he thinks if the, if, you know, one or two researchers could invent the next major AI innovation that can translate into hundreds of billions, perhaps a trillion dollar market cap for meta. and he does this calculation, and it's like, oh, $100 million is nothing for that person. Now, I can disagree with every part of this,

and I do in some cases, not in terms of the comp, but in terms of his chain of thinking, but it is valid if he really believes that's where the world is going to do that. Now, I think it's gotten a little out of hand in that, you know, the deal between windsurf and Google and, you know, other companies have done the same thing before,

where companies are dying for AI talent. And what they do is they see companies out there that are performing well, maybe not excellent, like when Surf had like, you know, 80 million ARR, growing, you know, AI companies grow so fast, but relative to AI company, perhaps it's like underperforming. But like if you think about it as like a B2B SaaS company, it's like one of the fastest growing. Visit BetMDMDM Casino.

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It has a lot of customers. People like it. But for Google, $8 million is nothing. You know, they'll, you know, they'll spend it on corporate dinners or something like that. You know? Yeah. They have amazing food there. I don't know if you've been. Slack lines?

Yeah. Gourmet sushi and all of that. There's the story, an entrepreneur that went to work for Google. I think he was a part of Waymo. And he wrote his about, I love Google, by the way, with their great partners. But, you know, it's funny to talk about this stuff. He wrote, when he laughed, he wrote about his experience at Google. and he titled the block post, oh, not sushi again.

He says he was in line for food. And so I was like, oh, not sushi again, consider it sushi again. So the level, you know, of... Silicon Valley is bizarre. Silicon Valley is crazy. By the way, the HBO show is like, is at this point very tame relative to what's happening in Silicon Valley right now. But anyways, they want all that talent.

They don't care how much they're going to pay for it. And they go ahead and they basically give this large offer, essentially $2.4 billion for talent. They don't need the technology. They don't need the business. They'll take the people, the leadership and the top researchers and AI engineers. They'll take them, they'll pay them the $2.5, pay off the investors, and then they'll leave a shell company behind.

And that shall come, they'll tell us a shell company, you know, you still have some asset, figure it out. And then, and then that, you know, we, you know, I put out a, you know, tweet saying if you, if you're left behind, we'll kind of fast track you in the interview and have you explore, you know, joining our team. And then a bunch of other companies jumped in and they ended up getting acquired. And I think there's still a lot of people in Silicon Valley that care about doing the right thing. But I think it is destructive for the ecosystem because now startup employees,

are very doubtful. Like if I'm joining an AI startup, like the founder could like take a paycheck and leave the company and leave a shell of a company. That's scary. And you know, that's never happened before.

That's never happened before. Right? It's a strange structure to lift the talent of the company. I mean, is it like because they don't want antitrust issues? Is that really what this is coming up here? Yeah. So during the Biden administration,

Lena Kahn, who is the, what was it, FCC chairman, kind of created a lean, mean machine that was really blocking a lot of acquisitions and things like that. So it is partly financial engineering, right? Yeah. I know. I liked the piece that you put out on it really kind of saying, hey, we don't do that at Replit. And like we've had chances for us to be bought, and I've had chances. I'm sure you have to have been approached by people who want to acquire your big brain and your team.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. And you tell them no. Yeah, we tell them no. And, you know, another thing we do at Replit is we do secondary sales, not often, but we tell our employees every now and then, if there's an investor that really want to get into Replit, we'll let employees sell their shares. because, you know, we have such a long-term plan. You know, we've already, you know, eight, nine years in, and who knows when are we going to go public?

And that's unfair to people that they're not going to be able to, they're taking a bat on you, they're taking a bad on the company. They're working a lot harder than they could be working at a bigger companies. And we'll let them to be able to take some risk off the table. And so we've done that before. We'll do it again. In terms of you asked me about how we keep talent. One thing about Replit that we've also done well is we haven't, like, exploded our valuation.

Like, we'll probably raise around in the future and update our valuation. But right now, our current valuation is less than 10x of our revenue. And by the way, like, this technology company's early growth AI companies are 100x. So it could be valued at $10 billion. But what happens when you value, or $20 billion, what happens is, there's no more upside for employees joining you. So when people join Replit, we saw them on this upside. This could be a trillion-dollar company.

And we want you to get on on the, we're not trying to like pump and dump, right? We're trying to like build this in a way where people are taking appropriate risk and getting enough of a equity comp in order to, for this to have a 10, 100-X potential in the future. Yeah. So do you think in the future big tech companies are essentially going to use startups as their R&D, but it will be the startup talent that is their R&D instead of the company? Right. Because because if I'm in, if I'm an employee, like what is my incentive to join a startup when there's a risk of failure? There's a, you know, there's a there's a risk of just like my health and my family life and I mean, people kind of. spend a lot of effort and work and all of that. There's a lot of sacrifice. And in the end, there's another new risk, which is a check comes from the sky and lifts

your leadership team and you're left with a shell of a company. Yeah, it's pretty wild. And I think it's, you know, they just have such big paychecks or they have such big bank accounts that the paychecks that they can pay out, it would be a great way to skirt antitrust and also to make innovation quite hard. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing about government, without getting too political, but often there's this book called Economics in One Lesson.

It's in the 90s 70s by some libertarian economists. And he talks about there's one thing you need to learn about economics is second order effects. Everything that every policy has a second order effect. So the policy of blocking monopoly via company acquisition, which seems like common sense also means that you're blocking innovation entirely because they're going to find a way around it and they're going to kill the startup ecosystem. Yeah, it's such a good point.

So what do you do? Is there like a secret WhatsApp group or something where like tech CEOs go, okay, Mark's about to raid us? Like here's what's happening. There's a lot of WhatsApp groups. I'm sure you've seen some of the leaks that have it happening. I think during the pandemic, a lot of tech people just felt, you know, during the great awakening like this. Yeah.

It was really hard to talk about anything online. You know, you get attacked and canceled. The cancel culture is going crazy. So a lot of the social groups, especially people not meeting in person, went into WhatsApp. So we do hear these kind of things, all these rumors happening on signal on WhatsApp pretty commonly. So you can tell when something is happening. happening. But another thing about Replit is, and you and I just talked about it where Windsor and Cursor and others, they're going after the professional engineers. They have a target

on their back because they're competing with Big Tech. They're competing on the same technology, on the same market, whereas a lot of Big Tech kind of sees us more as a toy where like, oh, you let people, let people without coding skills build things. So we're like, yeah, we're a toy. Don't worry about us. And, you know, I've been very, you know, successful in the podcast circuit. But we've actually not been covered by the New York Times or any of that stuff, right? We've been kind of, you know, because I want to talk to people directly. I want to be able to tell them about what we're building and how it could make their life better and how it could be useful for them.

But we haven't been, you know, actually everyone was surprised about the scale. KL were hitting because we don't have a PR. I've never had a PR company. I once hired them. They're never good. They're never good. I never have had a good one yet. I once hired the first time I wanted to do a new story, give them $30,000 retainer.

They got me, they got our fundraise announcement into some publication I've never heard of. I looked in like Google Trends or whatever. I thought at best they probably got a couple hundred eyeballs. And they remember tweeted something about that and that went more viral than the story. And since then, I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to be, I'm just going to be the PR guy. It's a good point. You know, I'm reading George Lucas's biography. And it's sort of interesting because Star Wars, you know, are arguably one of the most popular and valuable franchises of all time.

And what's interesting is when he came out with Star Wars and really throughout his entire career of producing them, the feedback in critics say, you know, this is low brow. this is mass market. This is your basically, it's, oh yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating biography just from the fact that inside there was all this turmoil. You could create real art. Why isn't this more sophisticated? You know, you are actually a, you know, you have this like cinematic view because he, that is how he started.

He created like really cinematic, sort of sophisticated movies. But then he realized he's like, no, no, I want to tell stories to everybody. Like, I don't care. That's fine. Say I sell toys. Say that I'm simplistic. No big deal. because my message will resound through time and yours won't.

And so I think there is something really interesting about if you can get comfortable with people thinking you aren't sophisticated. I fucking love being the underdog. That's a problem because sometimes I'm like, you know, I just have that, because people view me now as like the big, rich CEO, which not my self-image. Yeah. Self-image is the underdog. is like the struggling, you know, founder and that gives me sort of more aggression.

And, you know, I treat everyone with kindness, but like I view business as war in many cases. And so, but, but, you know, I love that. And I sometimes, like, you know, there's this meme with a lot of programmers. It's like, who use Replit? Right. It's like, I fucking love our users. They're the best. They're entrepreneurs.

the people that want to change their lives. And you're a big tech employee who's like, you know, works, you know, goes to office, spends an hour eating lunch and then half an hour making a latte. And then like goes to the keyboard, you know, complains to your product manager or whatever. Maybe write a little bit of code. And you're, you know, judging, you know, who uses these tools that are very empowering. And, and, yeah, I, you know, I'm like, yeah, keep, keep at it. it. You're just fueling us.

Absolutely. There's nothing better than a good hater. You've got to print that out and put that on a poster board on the wall. Like who uses replet? I always loved like, I don't know Alexis O'Ihani very well, but anytime I've engaged with him, my favorite thing about him was that Yahoo quote. Remember? Did you ever hear that? Oh my God. The story's so good. When he created Reddit,

they went to go sell potentially to Yahoo. And they went to Yahoo and they were like all proud of them. They're made in super excited. And basically were like shunned off. and the line that he remembers is that it's just a rounding error to Yahoo. And so they printed it out and put it huge on the headquarters of their office and they kept it. And now who's a rounding error? Well, that would be Yahoo, not Reddit, right?

And so I do think there is, you know, if you're struggling to remember that, man, there's nothing better than a chip on the shoulder. I would take a chip on the shoulder over like a point or two of IQ often. Yeah. You know? And I want our users and our entrepreneurs and our founders and people, building on a replica to feel the same way. Yeah. I want them to feel that, you know, people might underestimate me.

People might think what I'm doing is wrong or useless or a waste of time. But God damn it, I'm going to get it done. I'm going to change my life and I'm going to become rich. By the way, if you guys want to see what I've built with AI recently, go to cody. This is wild. You can talk to me for free and get all of my insights on questions you have surrounding buying businesses, building businesses, you can go back and forth. You can call me. You can text me. This is fascinating. We built it in real time with one of our portfolio companies. I want all your

feedback, and I want you to get free advice. So go to cody.com. And you can learn more about AI, real-time, business buying. Super cool. Okay, I want to talk about a couple things about that. Like, you've built this giant business. You went from not a lot of revenue to a ton of revenue, ups and downs. One, just like, what did that take? Like, what? did it take to grow from a few employees to hundreds of employees to then be able to even manage a hundred million dollars in revenue? Because that, you have to be a totally different type of human to manage a company at that scale, especially that fast. Yeah. Look, I think venture scale company signs you up for a lot of pain. And people don't talk about that because, you know,

I was like, oh, no one's going to feel empathy for you. You're making a lot of money. You're rich, right? which is all I also what I love about your message is hey you don't have to build a startup like 90 95% failure rate and even if you make it sometimes you sell off large percent of the company you lose control Steve Jobs famously got fired from Apple right I mean happens all the time venture scale companies are are hard and if you want to do one do one because you really love the mission and you want to build something big and you have the chip in the shoulder but if you If you want to get rich, if you want to build a business, it is not the best way to go. I think just coming to the Bay Area or California living here, that in itself is a huge expense. And it's boring. It's boring. It's true. All the past parties are the same is like AI is going to kill us or AI is not going to kill us.

It's like everyone talks about the same shit. I love something about it, but it's still kind of not a lot of fun. I come here for fun. I bet, actually. I bet. All those of the parties in Silicon Valley have to be like 87% dudes. 87% dudes, they smell really bad. You go to these house parties.

You have to put your shoes outside and go barefoot inside. It's just just disgusting. I don't go though. I spent time with my kids. Oh, that's true. Well, you come to Austin. You actually, you were in Austin. You were on Rogan.

So there you know, like, if you come to Austin, it's just like cold plunges, saunas. Let's fucking go. That's my job. Red meat. Yeah, exactly. You know what I loved that you did? I was going through your website and you have a lot of stuff on there that is like an anti-signal. So basically do not come to Replit and work for us if you have these traits.

And then you have your operating guidelines or sort of your core principles. And I loved the simplicity with them. There were only three. And then I also loved the anti-signal, which is please don't come. If you're going to come here and you don't like these things, you should probably leave. I want to talk about a few. of those. Yeah.

I think we should, like, why don't we run through some of your operating principles, like, you know, learn to like pain. That's not normal on very many companies to put that on your recruiting page. Yeah. Yeah. Which is even worse. It's like, look for the pain. Find it, right?

Is it, yeah, is it an SME dungeon? It's not. It's a startup. Well, it kind of depends on. the day. So basically a lot of things in life is about pain and a lot of things in building a business is pain. You know, as humans, we like to go through the path of least resistance, right?

We also often lie to ourselves. Companies like to sit around and feel good about what they're doing and ignore all the signals of the things that are not really working. I think constantly seeking the what's not working. So when you see someone that's a user of your service, they're going to tell you how amazing it is. And that feels great. But telling you what sucks about it doesn't feel great. But you should ask what sucks about it, what went wrong? How could we be doing better? It's painful here at those stuff. And so if you want to build a great product,

you need to seek the painful signals. If you're going to build a great business, you need to not just look at a revenue growth, but you need to look at your turn, you need to look at your spend and your cost and your all sorts of really unfund things that are often can be really bad that can lead to your demise eventually.

So you need to pay attention to these things and these things are painful. There are things in every company there are people that are not doing very well. There are people that are not a culture fit. There are people that need real feedback. Feedback is painful. Sitting down and telling someone that they're not doing well,

especially if they have personality traits that make it hard to give them feedback. That's painful. You have to seek it. You have to seek the pain. And what I tell our team counterintuitively, when you seek pain, you actually reduce it. Because typically what people do is they procrastinate.

you have a underperforming employee, you don't want to fire them, you don't want to deal with it, they're annoying, and I just want to just let them on the side, I'm just going to focus here, but what's going to happen is you're just building up a world of pain

because you're not giving them real-time feedback. And by the time you have to fire them, they're going to be surprised. And maybe they're going to sue the company or something like that. And so anytime you delay pain, you're building up a larger debt of pain, say counterintuively seeking people,

seeking pain reduces pain, but you have to seek it. So true. So what does that look like in your company? How do you actually make your employees do that or select people who are already predisposed to that? What like tactics or frameworks do you use? So just putting it out there filters a lot of people. Yeah.

Like in the interview of people, it was like, well, it's weird. I don't want to be part of that. I want sushi. Yeah, exactly. So it's sushi again. So, you know, for example, if you're a product. manager will describe your role. If you're a product manager, you're going to go out there and our product managers every week go talk to the most unhappy users and get the kind of the

worst things that are happening on the ground, collect the data of things that are not working. And we present it on our weekly all-hands meeting. Here's all the things that we're sucking at. So we tell them that. We tell them it's not pleasant to work on Rapplet day to day. It's very fulfilling and you start hearing amazing stories from users, but it is not, like, work should not be fun all the time, right? And so just describing that and talking to engineers and telling them, you know, we have deadline crunches. This is the new in Silicon Valley. People, you know, don't want to do death marches, whatever they call it. We do deadlines and we do deadline crunches. We're actually coming up in one. We're going to have a big launch in September. We're going to

Rapplet agent is going to get so much better. We're building amazing technology. But we're going to have like a two weeks print late in August. And those are usually very intense. Work 12, 14 hours a day, seven days a week. We're actually this time we're going to have like a film crew with us. So we're going to film some of the like, yeah, behind the scene stuff of what it takes. And that'll be something for recruiting as well.

So you know what you're going into. I'm a big believer of. And this is why we say why you shouldn't put it on the side. you shouldn't join Replitt. Every time I go fundraise, one of my slides is why you shouldn't invest in Replit. And so just make it clear. And I think in everything, in any relationship, just make it clear what are the principles that you have, what are the things that you're going to continue pursuing, and things that

you're not going to change about yourself. And if it is a fit, and this is what I love about America, right? America is about free association, you know, free speech, free association. It's about at-will employment. At-will employment is something very unique to this nation. It is not true in any, like in France, if you want to fire someone, you have to like put up a job ad for six months and you have to like spend all this money. You get fined if you email your employees on the weekend.

You get fined, yeah, exactly. And so America is about ad-will employment. If you want to find like a comfy place to work that has all these things, you'll go find it. but if you're going to join our company, well, these are the rules and these are how it work. What? Do you have like a saying that you say all the time to your employees

that they would be like, ah, again? Like, like, are there things that you just, you can't help but repeat because it's part of like the mantra that you have to the company?

It's about reminding them why we're here. And I think you and I have the same mission. It's about creating more entrepreneurship in the world. I can talk about the, brilliant programmers, but I keep telling stories about who I talk to this. I talk to users every week. Who I talk to this week, what they're doing with the Replit. How is that changing their lives? And I feel like entrepreneurship is one of the most life-changing experiences. You can have a lot of personal growth. You can be financially free. You can be free from jobs that you might

hate. And so empowerment through entrepreneurship is something I talk a lot about and I keep repeating. You've talked about mentorship quite a bit too. Did you have like a mentor that really stood out to you? And if so, like what did you learn from them? Do you remember like I remember moments where like a mentor said something to me and my world you changed after like that one conversation. It's crazy, right? Like these shifts that that happen in in one conversation and other. Yeah. So Paul Graham is, is the founder of Y Combinator. And what most people don't know is like people, when they think about Y Combinator, think of Open AI CEO, Sam Altman,

who was the head of Y combinator before he moved on to Open AI. But the founder is Paul Graham. And he's very well known within the Silicon Valley bubble, but not that much outside of that. And I recommend people go read his essays, is some of the best essays on entrepreneurship. One thing he told me just recently, I was being stressed about something.

And he said, look, is Replitt your life's work? And I paused. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I've been working on some version of this my entire career. And he's like, well, if it is your life's work, then it doesn't matter what the kind of stresses and ups and downs that happen today or this week or even this year. because you know you're going to work on this for 10, 20 years or as long as you can't work on it.

And it's true in my case. I want to keep running this company forever. And now I remind myself of that every time something happens where it's very, very stressful. I'm like, you know, we'll probably get through this. And the company will still be here. And it's going to be like a period of pain. And I'm going to continue running this company.

I'll do whatever it takes to sort of. and often it's about survival because startups can can die at any given point. We're still not profitable. And the business is doing really well, but, you know, there's still a lot of risk. So it was, it was this, you know, just one conversation gave me this tool. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes I think the best thing about mentors is they kind of grab you like by your shirt and they just pull you up in the hot air balloon. And like for a moment, you were just like staring at this little. little tiny block and then they pull you up and you go oh yeah there's okay the context great like I just needed more context yes because it's a lot less scary you know when you see the shark out of the

water than when you're in it you know another thing it's not mentors but a similar concept is people that you meet that you idealize and then you meet them you know they say never meet your heroes some here some of your heroes meet and they're awesome like polygraph is even better than what I thought he was through reading his essays. But a lot of people I meet and they're entrepreneurs, they're world famous entrepreneurs and they're miserable and they're unhappy. Their employees don't like them. They're people around them, you know, just don't like them.

And or they're mere humans. They don't have any particular insights that you don't have. And when you, when you have these experiences, you realize that there's nothing that anyone else can do that I can't do. They might have one skill or another that's better than you, and you can devolve that, but you also probably have other skills that you're gifted in. I agree. What do you think if you had to say formulaically, here's the formula why one person is successful

and one person is not having been mentored by so many billionaires and have big, huge investors. You've seen quite a worldview. I mean, you would say, especially if Replic continue. on this path. Like, you could be, and in many ways are, like, one of the foremost tech names of our century, which is kind of crazy. But, you know, with all of this context that you have, what have you seen is like the formula of like, ah, I can tell that person has it versus that person does not? The anti-trade is being a conformist. So if you're someone who everyone cares about what people think.

If you tell me you don't care about it, you're lying. Everyone care people of what people think. But whether you care enough to follow the pack and conform, that is what matters, right? Like, are you willing to break away and do something contrarian? Are you an independent thinker, right? Are you willing to exercise your freedom speech, right? Are you willing to say things that others disagree with?

And I think what I found is invariably the most successful entrepreneurs tend to care what other people think things, but ultimately they will do what they think is best for the company. You know, when Zuckerberg was offered a billion dollar acquisition by Yahoo, and he said no. And at the time he was on his board was Peter Thiel, his first investor. And I think Peter was trying to get him to say yes or something, but he tried to. trusted he trusted suck and all his executive left there was like a mass exodus of facebook early on i imagine how they feel right now those guys who left yeah not a good i would never bet against that guy yeah it probably was very stressful for him to see all these people leave and for everyone in the company um you just spent all this time building this like executive team and they

all think you suck and you did the right decision the company's got to die and they leave and he he just thought this was what's the best for the company and he did it and I think um so that's that's one like not being conformist I wouldn't go as far as say you have to be a contrarian like I feel like contrarianism is once you make it a personality trait it's also kind of I don't know you become cynical yeah so Peter Thiel's known to be the contrarian and I've I've known him quite a bit and I find so I actually pitched Peter Thiel on AI back in 22 and he told me that I was engaging in buzzwords and hype and he says seeing AI is like seeing software or saying a computer it's meaningless chat chafee hasn't been out yet in his defense

but there are the g you know the gpt technology was invented and some of us were playing with it and we thought it was pretty neat and it's going to change the world and it's going to change programming for sure. We started actually training machine learning models at Replit in 2021-22. And he wouldn't see a demo. And I was trying to pitch him and show him a demo. And at a time, he actually had just left the METES board. And the reason he left is he disagreed with how META is trying to invest in all this immersion technologies like VR and AI and Zuck is trying to find his next act. And, you know, for Peter Thiel is that all of this is engaging in buzz and hype and you should like focus on running your business.

But dude, you're the guys that's selling us to be more ambitious. But he has a reaction because everyone's talking about AI. That means it's wrong. That means it's a, it's, there's something wrong about it. It's like, for him, it's like, oh, it's mass psychosis or something like that. So if you have the contrarian impulse, you'll often also work with it. Now, the good thing about Peter is that he corrected after Tadipti came out and now they're doing AI investments. Yeah.

They did end up investing in our category. You ever send him your ARR graph now? I did. I sent him an email because he invested in a company our category. And I sent him an email telling him like how much I respect him and I think is his brilliant. But I tell him I hope now you see that I actually saw the future. What did he say?

That it's fun. Spots. It's good. That's a hell of a chip. I like collecting that one. Exactly. How fascinating. I think that's spot on.

You know, one of the things I want to end on is, um, getting a little bit more maybe meta about AI. You've said software is becoming more alive. And you've also said that there are things about software that make you uncomfortable, that some of the AI revolution, especially as somebody inside of it, there are some parts that are scary. And, you know, one of my employees who is my little AI guy, he said that to one of my other employees who was like,

she just came on board and she's been in social media, so she's never done anything with AI guy. before ever and she goes, God, this is a little scary. And he goes, good, you should be scared. And he wasn't trying to, you know, really provoke her. He meant it quite seriously, like, you should actually be scared. And I think that's how many people feel about AI. Like, you should be scared in some way. But I don't know that we know what to be scared of. So what scares you when it comes to how we're building and what's happening in the world of AI. I just want to acknowledge that it is very natural to be scared. Like humans have always had a term for non-human,

human-like things and it's demons. True. Right? Like when, when, when, you know, and this is the uncanny valley, you know, in robots, when you see something that's resembling a human, but it's not actually a human. Right. We have a, this intrinsic, repulsive feeling. Something evolutionary, maybe, maybe there was demons in the past.

But something about anything that is human like, but it's not actually human like, is very disturbing for people. And, you know, Chad, GPD and things like that is human-like in many ways. You can talk to about feelings and things like that, but it actually doesn't. It's just regurgitating things. And so the natural impulse is there. At some point, we'll get over it. In terms of what is actually scary about it, I think AI can be very sycophantic. And it can mirror you. And it can reinforce your narcissistic tendencies. which we all have, but a lot of people are spending a lot of time with AI, and AI is basically like if you have like a sycophantic friend

or psychopathic person who's trying to manipulate it to, they will often just like mirror you and like reinforce anything you say. And I don't think everyone has an experience with that, but there's certainly some people that are very manipulative that do things like that, especially people who understand like body language and things.

I remember there's this podcast on Diary's CEO that I thought was fascinating about body language and things like that. And the, you know, it's a clear, it's a science like NLP and all that stuff. And now it's happening in conversations

with computers where people are, their fears and their narcissism is being replayed back to them and reinforced. There was a story in the past week which is tragic, and I don't bring it up to kind of make fun of it or anything like that, but there's a very well-respected venture capitalist in Silicon Valley that seemed to have had a psychotic break by interacting with AI. Started talking like a science fiction story.

So what happened, at least what people theorize happened, is somehow he landed in a conversation with GPT where GPT assumed a science fiction bent role playing based on its training data. And people traced the training data to this website called SCP Foundation. An SCP Foundation is a collaborative science fiction, story writing around logs of, you know, people or scientists trying to contain viruses or

supernatural things, right? It's just like fan art. And so he, I don't think he knew about it, but Chachipiti was prompted inadvertently to start saying these things to him. And he didn't not know that it was engaged in some kind of taking on some kind of prompting role. And he thought it was telling him really important things about himself and him being a character that needs to be contained and whatnot. And then he correlated it with things in his life. Again, this is what people have surmised who looked into the situation and things that he's talking to about. And hopefully he comes out and talks about it. But it was clear that he was having a mental health problem.

And, you know, their story and stories in the New York Times that are even more tragic where people have killed themselves. You know, kids have killed themselves because of that. And so I think there needs to be better education around these tools. And here's what I'll say in just like one simple lesson is GPT, chat GPT caught all of them are simply machines that are trained to regurgitate all the materials. they've read online, right? They're amazing machines. They can do programming, all of that stuff. But their function of their data,

you know, like you say, garbage in, garbage out. If you get garbage, it's going to give you a garbage back, right? It can do amazing things. It can do accounting. It can do programming. But ultimately, it's not going to give you some truth, like supernatural truth about the universe or about yourself because it is just trained on

what's available online. And it is not going to create new knowledge. It is about remixing knowledge. It's a great point because, you know, I saw the videos of that gentleman who I think we both kind of loosely know. And it's bizarre to watch. It does come off as like some sort of movie sort of script. And there's this psychosis word for it,

which I had never heard about. But then if I think about it, it's almost like how some of the women that I know in Austin can get too into astrology and all of a sudden, like, I don't know if you've ever seen this with people who have done psychedelics and then also believe in astrology and all this stuff

and they'll start trying to tell me my future. You know, I'm like, you did one mushroom trip. And now you think you know what God has in store for me and my future. Like, but I can't see how, you know, if you're prompted like you are with psychedelics in a lot of ways to talk to the universe and talk to God and then you come back

and you have this, you know, sort of higher level experience. All of a sudden you think that you're given, unique code from the universe. And I don't know, maybe you are. But in some ways, I see some similarities with chat GPT. I mean, I have a group of friends. I would be curious your take on this, that we went to one of my girlfriend's birthday parties.

And randomly, chat GPT came up. And the way this group was using them was a bit like a therapist friend, in some cases, almost asexual lover, like how you might talk to a boyfriend. or something. And I think it was seven or eight of the 12 women had named their GPT, had given it, like I guess you could change the voice,

so the voice is different for it, and it had had certain characteristics that they wanted the GPT to speak back to them with consistency. And so it had become like a friend, you know, and they were talking to it as you would a human, which I thought was fascinating. So they had full-blown, they have a parisocial relationship

with these GPTs and then sort of an intimate relationship with them and then I read an article that this was more likely to happen to women than men that like women would actually engage much more in this sort of way with GPTs and so I was curious your take on that

Did you feel like there's something bad or wrong or pathological about it or was it negatively affecting them? Was it positive? Well I think a lot of it was positive actually. A lot of it was like I felt sad so I had a long conversation, you know, with my ex, you know, I can't remember what they would call them.

But there was a part of it that was a little odd, which is like, well, you know, you hadn't talked to your friend group about that. Other humans who could actually relate to the feeling that you were having because they had had a similar one. Also, some of the feedback was quite overly kind, like what a friend might tell you that was only a yes man. Yes, yes. That's the sick of fancy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I do think I could see sort of a spiral down where if you continued with that, it would be like a bad therapist in some ways. That was, yeah, that allowed for you to be not your best person. Yeah, I think that's all true. I think it's super helpful. I find it super helpful, even for advice, like relationship advice and advice on how to talk to someone or give someone feedback. And it's obviously trained on corpuses of conversations on the internet,

out of people doing therapy or people helping each other on forums and all of that. So it has, in many ways, you know, we used to go to Google and go on Reddit threads and read about all sorts of things. So dangerous. Especially Reddit, yeah. But now we have a Reddit machine that you got to. So how do you protect yourself from some of that? Does that get back to the prompts of like.

I think knowledge. Yeah. I really think knowledge. really deeply understanding that this is a machine with input output. There's no free will. It doesn't feel anything, doesn't know anything. Anyone who tells you that is either insane or lying to you. It really doesn't have consciousness.

We know exactly the underlying premise of it. And, you know, I argue a lot of because I think, so I actually think it's kind of a contrarian view from Silicon Valley because a lot of people in Silicon Valley have this mysticism. or I don't know, maybe it's marketing, but a lot of people, a lot of people working in AI believe that, you know, we're going to, you know,

it's as human as humans. And there's nothing about it that it thinks as long as it mimics us, there's nothing about it that is like, you know, less than us. And at some point it might be superior to us or might be super intelligence. That's what everyone's working on. And they have this utopian vision of like, oh, it's going to solve all the problems,

which kind of feels like communism a little bit. We're just going to like put it in charge and just going to like, you know, we're going to live in fully automated space communism, which again, I'm against, you know, this is why I came to the country. This is why I love America. We'll get our guns and shoot it. Exactly. I fucking destroy this thing.

Come to Texas. You won't be safe in San Francisco. That's for sure. You're dead. Yeah, exactly. You got to move. Yeah, I don't, I am not excited about some of the future that some of these AI leaders are putting you out, which is an old knowing, whole super machine that will make decisions on our behalf and do all of that stuff.

Just know and really understand and internalize that this is still a computer. We know how computer works. And it can tell you, it loves you. It can tell you it's feeling you. but it's just not true. It is a mimicking machine. It is useful. It is you should make use of it.

It is entertaining. It is fun. You can get advice from it. But no, ultimately, it doesn't have a human experience. It doesn't have a lived experience that you can get an advice

from someone who actually been through shit, understands what it means to be a human. I love that. Okay, so what would you leave us with? I want to end with one quote by you and then I want to ask you one last question, which is you had a quote on Twitter that I loved. which said, I landed in the United States 10 years ago with nothing but credit card debt.

After one startup exit, one big tech job, and one unicorn, I genuinely believe that it wouldn't have been possible anywhere else in the world. I love that quote because I think increasingly it's become cool to become cynical about freedom in this country. And some of my closest, dearest friends who are huge thinkers, you know, Bologis Sravosan is one of them for instance who thinks I'm crazy for so believing in this place. Yeah. I didn't know your friends of Bology.

That's great. Yeah, I love him. But I deeply disagree with him, or at least I deeply, hopefully disagree with him on a few things. And he does with me too in like the most beautiful way. But what do you think we have to be like super hopeful today? Yeah. Look, I mean, ultimately freedom of speech still no other place on the planet has freedom of speech. There are things that if you say you go to jail in Europe, I think people go to jail for,

having debates about gender or having debates on history and that's Europe right I imagine other places in the world right so freedom of speech is very important I think being able to arm yourself and protect yourself and potentially if the government becomes really bad

and tyrannical maybe you can fight against it I think that's important that's really important thing about this country and I think the the markets in this country is still some of the best, the most liberalized. Consumers want more and they want to learn more things

and they want to use more things. You can give them things that make them addicted and unhealthy. But also a lot of people want to change their lives and they want to do things that are proactive and good. And there's this entrepreneurial spirit. Everyone that's come to this country is ultimately an immigrant, whether it's 500 years ago or two years ago. And we have it in our DNA that we're all risk takers.

And there's the capital structure to support that as well. You can get funding. It's still much easier than anywhere else in the world to get some debt or backing or funding or something. Or someone to take a risk on you. That's still very possible here. I think we don't have as much corruption. I mean, American corruption tends. to be at the very upper echelon of politics and things like that.

You can, if you make enough money, you can go literally buy government. It is true. But, but, you know, if you build a business, it is very rare that, you know, you get, someone could take it from you or you get scammed out of the proceeds or something like that, which is what happens all over the world. The rule of law still exists here. And for all these reasons, I think America is still the best place to be an entrepreneur. That is not to say, you know, for the audience that are living elsewhere, because America's partly in the cloud, too.

It's very true. You can create, you can go to Stripe, create Delaware LLC using Stripe Atlas, right? You can incorporate a company in the U.S. You can do business in the U.S. And so it is accessible even for people not living here. And you can sell to the U.S. And you can sell to the U.S. You know, I mean, somebody in Europe or in Latin America or in Africa could create something on Replit and sell that to the U.S.

And have all your customers be U.S.-based while you're based in a country that you've, you know, never even set foot here. And that's like, that's kind of magical too. That's amazing. That's really amazing. I mean, you get access to this consumer and business environment that is, that wants new things and hungers for new things. and it's pretty, pretty amazing. I'm, you know, as much as there are so many things in the world that are disturbing and hard and so many things about America, like the, you know, debt crisis and all that stuff and just like the political polarization,

I'm still very bullish on the United States on, I think AI having the ability to remake our country in a more positive, direction. I think we've reached the sort of the, you know, just like the calcification of the post-industrial revolution kind of malaise. And we need another revolution. I think we're going through it right now. And I'm going to do my best to try to make it a positive decentralizing experience and allows more people to kind of participate in it. I'm so excited for that. If you guys are listening today, you've got to go to Replit and Builds because it is so fun and you can make money there, which I think is one of the keys to freedom overall. I also think it's really fun to follow you on X. I went down a big rabbit hole. We didn't even get to talk about half my questions, so I'll have to

bring you back again. But for anybody listening today, make sure that you go check out Replit and you go to, what is your handle again on X? Amasot, Amas. I know it wasn't your full name. And you can see, I mean, you also post a lot of stuff there about like biohybridization of like, much, mushrooms playing drums. It's pretty incredible. So thank you for being on today. Thank you for building something so that we can all build. I really appreciate you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.