BigDeal - Divorce Lawyer: The #1 Sign Your Marriage Will FAIL | James Sexton

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Starting point is 00:00:36 There's something beautiful to be found in here. I think that can be an amazing thing. You don't have to wait to get divorced to do that. My guest today is James Sexton, one of the world's most famous divorce attorneys, who has seen more than a thousand marriages end, and he's going to share exactly what the relationships do that last and what those do that fail. Every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies to look at the,

Starting point is 00:00:59 other and be able to say, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am. And they're still my favorite person in the world. There's a 70% failure rate. Does marriage still work? The question people most often ask me is. There's so many interesting ways to go with you. We've become buddies. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:20 But one of the parts I find fascinating is inverse thinking, right? So Charlie Munger always said, invert to always invert. And that's how you find the truth. And so you've watched thousands of things. marriages die. You've been a part of thousands of breakups of marriages. And you've also written the book on how to not break up and how to not get divorced. And so I want to start with just the basics. Right now, you're in a room, two people. How can you tell somebody is going to get divorced or not? What are the most telltale signs? I mean, some of it is going to obviously be the way that they relate

Starting point is 00:01:55 to each other verbally, like how much they're listening to each other, how much they're talking past each other or over each other, how much grace they give each other. I've always said, like, to me, the sound of a marriage that's about to end is, is like, it's a very simple, subtle sound. It's this. It's, what? Huh? Yeah, whatever. Like, it's, it's a tone of voice more than a content. And the tone of voice says everything. It's like the what? Like, what? Where are you talking again? Like, what are you? What? Like, it's the contempt. It's the contempt. It's the, opposite, if you think about it, it's the opposite of when we're dating. Like when we're dating, we're interested and we're interesting. And we feel interesting and we feel interested. And there's

Starting point is 00:02:39 this sense of like, tell me about you. I want to know. And let me tell you about me. And like, there's this feeling of this exchange. And then like when we're together and it's falling apart, it's the total opposite of that. It's that sense of like, what are you saying? Like, and that to me is the sound of it. The feeling of it is a different thing too. I mean, anybody has ever been out with like a bunch of couples and one of them you just like the vibe is just did they get to fight on the way over here or they just hate each other like what's going on like and you can just kind of feel it in the way that they're interacting or not like looking at their phones instead while the other one's talking that they're just not even what yeah what yeah all right you know like it's a

Starting point is 00:03:19 feeling and I think you know again like I think studying the opposite is really the thing like when we we fall in love so fast and it's such a powerful emotion. It's so intoxicating. It's such a deep connection. And then we very slowly disconnect. And it happens slowly. And it's just one of those things that then you turn around and go, like, how did we get here? Like, we never meant to get here. How did we get here? Like, nobody ever wakes up and just goes, I think I'm going to like really fuck my life up today. You know, I'm just going to really just take this fundamental foundational relationship that I've invested a tremendous amount of my life capital in. And I'm just going to let it go to shit. Like, I don't

Starting point is 00:03:59 think anybody thinks that. And yet, you know, 50% or so of marriages end catastrophically, meaning they divorce. Another 10 to 20% either separate but never file for divorce, go out for milk and never come back, or they just sort of unhappily stay together. And under surveys, basically say, yeah, I kind of don't think this person adds any value to my life anymore. Which, again, why would we sign up for something that fails roughly 60 to 70% of the time, or at least doesn't, it catastrophically fails close to 50% of the time and doesn't achieve the goal 70% of the time. And yet, we do over and over again. So what if we think about the opposite of that? Like the other day I was talking to my husband, Chris, you know well. And I love Chris.

Starting point is 00:04:46 I know. He's very lovable. We have such a bromance going on. It's the jiu-jitsu thing. It's like struggle cuddles. You just immediately are bonded, you know. J-Jitsu. Guys who like jiu-jitsu and poetry are rare, it turns out. After we recorded our last conversation and Chris and I, I felt like we were in the movie Stepbrothers. You know, like, we just become best friends. Yep. You know, like it was just instant. And all of a sudden, we're in these three-way texts with you and you're just on the sidelines while he and I are browing out.

Starting point is 00:05:11 I feel really badly about that. Well, I think it's great. I have so much funny, too. We're so hysterical. But it's funny because the other night I told Chris, you know, how in a marriage somebody will tell the same story 52 times, right? All the time. We both do it. Well, why do you do that?

Starting point is 00:05:26 Because it's a really great fucking story. story. Right? That's like, I got mine in my back pocket. And I realized at some point, I would like be like, okay, I've heard that one. Skip to the end. Right. And he was so good because he basically said to me, he's like, you know, I can tell when you are doing that thing where you're like trying to get me to move forward in a story. And I was like, oh, fuck, you can tell that. And I was like, that's a shame. Like, and I said to him, I'm so sorry because I find you so interesting. And that story is actually really good. So when I reframe it, like, I love that you get to talk a bunch of dinner, I don't have to talk as much. And he like really liked the compliment. He was like,

Starting point is 00:06:01 well, thanks for, because I probably hadn't said to him in a while, you are so interesting. I love listening to you. So I guess my question here is like, what, how do you counter the whatever, I don't care? So say you are a person who still wants to be in the marriage. And you're like, I actually want my person to know that they are interesting to me. Yeah. What do you do? How do you reengage a failing marriage? I don't, I don't think it's actually, that hard. I think you do the same things you do to screw it up. It's just, you just move it in the other direction. Like it, you know, the spiral of like apathy and disdain for each other is the exact same recipe as the spiral in the other direction of like reconnecting to each other. And that is,

Starting point is 00:06:42 it's these little tiny things that you slightly reframe. You know, it's giving the other person just this little bit of grace. Like, I genuinely think that the easiest thing we can do is just start treating our partner with love and attention and connection. And I think it's a 100% return on your investment because either you're going to reverse the spiral. So you're going to give your partner more grace, more attention, more praise, more love, more affection than maybe you owe them if we owe each other or anything. And either that's going to inspire them to start doing the same and feeling good about you, this chicken or the egg thing. Or you're going to have done this for a while and you're not going to get any return on an investment. And isn't it better to know? Isn't it better to

Starting point is 00:07:35 know like, well, maybe this thing is really broken between us and happily ever after might mean happily ever after separately? Like, I'm a believer in people splitting up when that's the right move for them. But I genuinely think that all you have to really do to reverse that spiral is to because what does it take? Like, what does it take? Like, what does it take? to just in the middle of the day, send your girlfriend, wife, a text that says, you know, I had such fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. 30 seconds cost nothing. What is it to, it's the equivalent of sending flowers. Like, it's the equivalent. Like, to say, like, I was just thinking of you and I just wanted you to know. Like, oh, I walked past

Starting point is 00:08:16 this person and they were wearing the perfume used to wear when we first went out and for a second, I almost fell down. What a, like, beautiful thing to say. Who wouldn't want to hear that? Who wouldn't want, and again, cost nothing, takes almost no time. And the ROI on that, I think, can be really, really profound. And, you know, if you don't mind me saying, because you gave yourself as an example, like having hung out with you and Chris together as a couple, you went out to dinner, I remember thinking like, oh, what's this going to be like? Because like, you and I have such big personalities. And I was like, oh my God, this is going to be, this is like, everybody wants to be Beyonce. Nobody wants to be Destiny's child here. This is going to be crazy.

Starting point is 00:08:51 And I thought, but you know, Chris is so interesting and he's so accomplished and there's such a hell of a resume there. And I thought, like, what's this going to look like? Is it going to be like a competition? Like, who's going to? And he was so, he reminded me of a lot of my really lethal jiu-jitsu buddies who are just so chill and just sort of like very, you and I were like, da-da-da-da. And he was like, you know, and even when I tried to make him the center of attention, like, I wanted to, I was genuinely curious. Like, tell me about the Naval Academy. Tell me about this.

Starting point is 00:09:20 He was very quick to like bounce it back to you. And there was such a sense between. And again, it's like an energy thing, not to say. sound too, too woo-woo about it. But it really was like, you guys clearly like each other. Yeah. Like, you don't just love each other. It's lovely that you love each other. That's great. But like, you like, you like, you were sitting there kind of listening to each other's stories, laughing at each other's jokes. And there wasn't this sense at all of like taking the piss out of each other in a way that was in any way but like loving and sweet and affectionate.

Starting point is 00:09:51 Like no one would ever look and go, oh, these two, like, do you not even like each other? Like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and connection. When you're with people that have that rhythm the right way, you realize it's just those little tiny things. And we all want, I know we all want like the big thing, the panacea, the cure, the like single thing. I don't think it's like that. I think it's just these little choices we make every day. But again, like we have all these gadgets, these watches that bang and tell us when to drink water and these gadgets in our pocket that tell us, you know, wasn't a move or when we can't just set a reminder somebody can't just make an app that just says hey

Starting point is 00:10:29 three times a day here's the random times to text your person and tell them that you're thinking of them or send them a picture send them a nude i don't know like do something like like do something for them to let them know i see you i like you you're still my person you know you're still my favorite person you know that's the thing i've been on a lot about lately it's just the idea that this is your favorite person like this is a eight billion people in the world old and this one. You picked this one and they picked you. Like what a beautiful thing to have found. So why wouldn't you value it and treat it with a little bit of everyday maintenance? Yeah. You know, it's interesting because you've also talked before and it was profound to me.

Starting point is 00:11:11 And I can't remember if we actually did it live or when we were behind the scenes. But we all have that friend or a group of friends that when we're with them as a couple, they are taking the piss out of each other all the time. They're going back and forth. And for some reason, they kind of think it's cool. Like, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, da-da-da, da, da, da, da, da, I got him or I got her or whatever. And they almost, it's performative. They want you to, like, be a part of it.

Starting point is 00:11:33 Well, it's, like, rewarded in the zeitgeist, too. Right. So I guess what is it the key indicator that, like, that's you? How do you see, how do you know that somebody is really unhappy in their marriage by the way they communicate in front of others? And what's a sign you're doing it in your marriage? You might be like, you might actually be killing your marriage by the way you talk to your spouse in front of other people. Well, I think, again, like, the way to the way out of this

Starting point is 00:11:59 or the way to, like, really, I think, interpret the data. Because, you know, facts all come with points of view and they rarely do what I want them to, you know, like they're, and I know that is someone who weaponizes facts all the time. Like, see, I guess the thing that makes me different than like the Gottman's or Estabar Peral or any of the myriad of mental health professionals who have excellent advice to give everybody about relationships, including me. like I'm actually really I'm a lawyer so all I care about is evidence like I don't care what you know what can you prove like how am I going to prove it I love my kid that's nice what's the evidence to support that okay I'm going to show that you go to every parent teacher conference I'm going to

Starting point is 00:12:36 show that you gave up this work opportunity that was really lucrative for you because you wanted to be home because your kid had a school thing like that's evidence that's all I'm caught up in is what's the evidence okay I love you cool loves a feeling and loves a verb So what's the proof? Give me the evidence. What's the evidence that you love this person? Because here's what I'll tell you. I'm looking at the ingredients I have at trial that I'm going to put up on the witness stand.

Starting point is 00:13:01 And as far as I can tell, like if I cross-examined you about your love, I think I could take you apart. Because if you're saying you love this person, isn't it a fact that when this person came home last week and said X, Y, and Z that you started, you know, making them feel small for the fact that they had that problem instead of just listening attentively? Isn't it a fact, sir? That you, you know, like, so if I, if I cross-examined you about your relationship, could you stand up to that? Could you acknowledge where you got it wrong and where you maybe got it right? And by the way, why wouldn't we as an exercise together, if we're in a relationship, why wouldn't we once a week?

Starting point is 00:13:41 Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved. Tell me three things I did this week that I could have done better. tell me three things I did this week that turns you on. Like, I would say something. That latter one, you would be surprised at the answer. Like, so many of those questions, like, you'd be surprised at the answer. I've spent so much time trying to get eight-pack abs. And I remember once in a relationship saying, you know, what's like something I do that like turns you on?

Starting point is 00:14:09 And her going, oh, you know, when the dogs come in from the rain and you're like towling them off. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? She's like, I don't know, the way they look at you and you look at them and like your are your tattooed strong arms or like towel. I don't know. It's just super hot. And I'm like, what? I would never have guessed that.

Starting point is 00:14:30 Like, that's the last thing on the list. The dogs are wet every day. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I'm just from that on. I'm pouring water on them. How do the dogs get so damn wet?

Starting point is 00:14:38 But the truth is, like, if you really, sometimes the things that we are doing that make our partner feel loved are so silly and so small. There that you know that I take two sugars and not three. There that you, you know, always make sure that, you know, I get this or that you, you asked how my mom was doing last week when you, you know, after I talked to her. Like, what did that do? It made me feel loved. Like, and what's the goal? The goal is to like, for you, the goal is to make Chris feel loved. Chris's goal should be to make you feel loved. Because the goal of this game that there is no finish line for and that none of us can win because every marriage ends in death or divorce, the goal should be that when one of us dies to look at the other and be

Starting point is 00:15:25 able to say, hey, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am, and they're still my favorite person in the world. Like, and what better goal than that? Like, my son got married a few months ago. And I just remember thinking, like, that's just the goal. Like, the goal is, like, to get to the finish of this thing because everything ends and just be able to say, yeah, you help me become me, authentically me. And I, and I'm still, you're still my favorite person. Such an interesting point because today, I feel like there's so many complications with social media. Like, and, and we feel like we have to do all of these things. All the things. Yeah, because we see on social media, everybody else being this perfect partner. And so I'm curious,

Starting point is 00:16:10 like, is it actually better for us? to post more or less about our relationship on social media. Is there a negative correlation between that and staying together? Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'll say is I think it's useful insofar as it identifies our common humanity at its best. Like, at its best, the connection of social media, the mass audience of social media, makes all of us feel a little less alone. Yeah. Even when we're actually alone. It makes us feel a little less alone.

Starting point is 00:16:42 like, oh, I'm not the only one experiencing that. The problem with it is so much of it is the performative self. And everyone is putting up their greatest hits. And we're all living our gag reel. And by the way, when are you on your phone? It's not when you're having like some wonderful peak moment. It's when you're like sitting on the couch feeling, or on the toilet or whatever.

Starting point is 00:17:00 And it's not like in a great moment. So you're watching everyone's greatest moments while you're kind of in one of your less great moments. And I think it's natural for us to feel smaller than. I think comparisons always been the thief of joy. and it continues to be. But I also think that, you know, there is a way that we could be using social media to, to share the best parts of our partner. The problem is how people then perceive it. Like, are you flexing? Are you performing? Like, happy people are just busy being happy. They're not out there trying to convince everybody that they're happy. Like, who's that for?

Starting point is 00:17:37 Like, I can't tell you how many people, you know, even celebrity clients of mine, that, you know, they're in my office actively negotiating a settlement of their divorce. And meanwhile, they're like walking down the red carpet holding hands. They're doing interviews. Hashtag blessed. Like, you know, best husband ever. And meanwhile, they've been separated for the last eight months. And they're like, oh, he's on set. And it's like, no, he's in an apartment with a different girlfriend in Malibu. Like, it's the reality versus the curated performative self. And I get that we're all kind of doing. I mean, for actor clients, they're always acting anyway to some degree, so it's not that foreign for them to just play another role, the role of the happy spouse.

Starting point is 00:18:16 But it's unfortunate because it, you know, it's a very human thing to just watch what are other people doing. And, you know, people spend a lot of time trying to teach me the quadratic formula. Like, that was going to be important. Like, I needed to know how to divide fractions. Like, they spent a lot, there were some nuns in Catholic school that thought this was essential that I know this. Like, never used it in my whole life. But, so, many things about relationship, like someone could have taught me. They could have given me a manual. Like, this is too important to go unmanualed. Like, there should be a manual. There should be some basic thing about here's the care and feeding of connecting to another person in really basic ways.

Starting point is 00:19:01 And I don't think that it's actually that hard. I think we just have to be humble enough to say this isn't as easy as it looks. And otherwise, what we do is we learn the way, like, I think one of the reasons there's a synergy between our work and our writing is you're very kind of counterintuitive in some of your thinking. Like, okay, if everyone's doing this, maybe look at this. Like, and the more that people are trying to, like, say, oh, this is the wrong way. Like, maybe there's a contrarian way of viewing this.

Starting point is 00:19:35 I think in relationships it's it's really the same thing like we we really could just it could be pretty simple and boring the answer like it may be boring is the answer the answer is these little tiny habits of mind these little tiny daily practices these little weekly or so check-ins it's not sexy there's no course to take there's no book to buy necessarily I could fit it on an index card but it's kind of simple and we could have taught it to people at a younger age is that why you say that, you know, affairs or breakups don't happen fast. They happen slowly. Well, they happen. I think they happen like bankruptcies happen very slowly and then all at once. Like, I think it's very gradual. Like, falling feels like flying for a little while. Oh. You know, and then you hit the ground.

Starting point is 00:20:23 And I think that there's this, this gradual feeling of like, we fall in love so fast. We connect so fast. It's a ball of hormones. It's all kinds of exciting. And then. You know, and again, I don't blame people for this. Like, I think you, you know, there's so much to do mentally. Like, the mental load is a real thing. Like, there's so much going on. And you, for some period of time in your life, like, finding your person is the thing. Like, there's so much you do.

Starting point is 00:20:52 Like, so much you wear, so much you think. Where can I find my person? And then you find them. And you're like, oh, thank God. Like, one less thing. Like, now I can focus on the other stuff because there's so much other stuff. And now, by the way, I can probably do that better because I got like somebody there. That's great, you know.

Starting point is 00:21:10 But then you kind of forget that I wanted this so bad. It was so important, you know, and it's easy to just let those other things come fully into focus. I mean, a baby is a great example of that. They require tremendous amounts of attention. They require tremendous amounts of emotional and physical bandwidth. And there is a part of you that kind of can forget, you know, why this baby is. is here because the two of us loved each other enough to rub our parts against each other. Like, that's how this happened. So, like, why not try to keep in our line of sight? Like, hey,

Starting point is 00:21:46 you know, our love built this person. Like, and let's give each other the gift of, like, paying attention. Because, again, I think it's all about just paying attention. I understand why our attention gets pulled to other things. I don't fault anybody for that. It's so human. Like, we need We need to attend to other things, but very quickly we forget how important this was and is. And I think if we don't pay attention to it, it very easily falls apart. Quick aside, everything James talks about comes back to one thing. Relationships that last aren't the ones built on wishful thinking. They're the ones where people actually do the work and get clear on the terms before things get hard.

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Starting point is 00:22:59 SoFi small business loans are originated by SoFi Bank N.A. Subject to eligibility and approval, terms and conditions apply. This is a paid SOFi partnership. How often is having a kid actually one of the impetus is for divorce? I think it's an impetus for the disconnection that is the impetus for divorce. And I think for very valid reasons, which is a baby A requires a tremendous amount of your time and attention. You experience a love for this creature. that is nothing like you've had before and it's totally dependent on you. I mean, we emerge half formed and hope whoever meets us on the other side is going to like take care of us. And it's a beautiful, amazing thing.

Starting point is 00:23:44 But for a little while, it's kind of exhausting and terrifying and stressful. And none of us really know exactly what we're doing and we feel like we're doing it wrong for sure. Because whatever you do, somebody on the internet is going to tell you you should have done it differently and better and you're doing it wrong and the baby's going to come out wrong as a result of it. it's all your fault. And it all feels like it's all on the line all the time. And this other person who wants you to be happy and loved and feel good is as terrified and frustrated as you are and sleep deprived as you are. And it's like there's so much. And both of your, everything's kind of off. And for a woman in the relationship, like your body feels out of control. And like you, you know, you get out of the hospital. You're like four months pregnant. Like it's just not the same.

Starting point is 00:24:24 And again, for the guy, it's like, hey, you know, like I can't wait to have my wife back. wait, what do you mean the boobs aren't for me right now? Who are they for? Like, I just met this kid. I don't like them that much to trade those. Like, that doesn't seem fair. But again, and by the way, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be like, what now I got to tend to you too? Like, can I handle? Can I just handle this for a minute? Like, can everybody leave my boobs alone for a minute? I get it. But the truth is, like, again, like, if we could just identify it first, like instead of getting caught up and what do we owe each other? Like, I don't owe you. this and you don't owe me you're right you don't you don't owe anybody anything in that sense like but

Starting point is 00:25:04 don't you want to be connected to each other like don't you want your partner to feel loved and seen like you don't want no one meant to be in my office i mean one of the reasons why i find my profession so humbling and fascinating is that like we're just all so full of shit so much of the time everything we do we're like well i meant to do that it was a learning experience you can't pretend you meant to get divorced. You didn't. You can say, hey, it's good. It's the right thing.

Starting point is 00:25:32 Okay, you could say that. But when you were walking down the aisle, you were not like, yeah, this is going to go down in flames. Like, you believed that this was going to work out. And then it didn't. And now what? You know, and now what? Like, I think you can own that. I think you can be like, yeah, the barns burned down and now I can see the moon.

Starting point is 00:25:49 Like, there's something beautiful to be found in here. There's an opportunity for reinvention to be found here to learn about what you do wrong in relationship and what you do right and how to do it better next time. And I think that can be an amazing thing. But you don't have to wait to get divorced to do that. Like you can do that right now. Like you don't have to wait. Like when people have a crisis in their marriage, someone's parent is ill or dies. Something horrible happens. There's this shared sense of, oh my God, like I got to take care of this person. Are they okay? Like my partner is like going down. Like I need, they need me. You don't have to wait.

Starting point is 00:26:27 The thing? Pretend the thing happened. Like every single day. Like, you don't have to wait till January 1st to change your life. You can change your life on a Tuesday of the middle of August. It doesn't matter. Like, and I think that's the thing we're just lost the plot of is where we're, again, like babies are amazing and they're exhausting.

Starting point is 00:26:48 And they can be both things. Spouses are amazing and exhausting, you know. and they're the greatest strength for you, and they're also kind of a drain sometimes. Like, things don't, there's a reason why little kids really like professional wrestling. Because it's like really clear who the good guy is and really clear who the bad guy is. You know, and like, we love that. We love a world where it's just good guys and bad guys and that's it.

Starting point is 00:27:16 And you know who the bad guy is because they're dressed a certain way and the certain music comes on when they come out. You know who the good guy is because they're dressed a certain way and some music comes up. That's not how it works. Like the line of good and evil runs through the human heart. And none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. Like we all contain foolishness and selfishness and weakness in us. And we all contain beauty and love and connection in us. And I think that if love is anything, it's the invitation to like try to help your partner every day see the best parts of themselves because you try to keep that in your own line of sight.

Starting point is 00:27:51 What do you think that women get wrong about what men want in a marriage or a relationship? What don't we understand? I mean, men and women get so much wrong about each other because we just, again, I've been thinking a lot about this in my own life because I'm 53. And I think it took me to like 52 or 53 to learn that when a woman says to me, do you know how hard it is to be a woman, that they're not saying and it's easy to be a man? Like, I don't know why in my heart and in many people's hearts, when I say to you, do you know how hard it is to be a man sometimes? Why your first reaction is to go, I'm sorry, do your hormones fluctuate wildly every 28 days? Do you have to fit your feet in heels?

Starting point is 00:28:51 do people when you're working tell you you should be at home and when you're home tell you you should be working? Like really? Because it's so easy being, well, what if I just said, you know, it's really hard to be a man sometimes? You want, really tell me about that. How? Because I've never been a man. I don't know. I have a bunch of them in my life that I care about. So I'd really like to know. Like, what's that like? Tell me what, tell me what's hard about it. You know? And I only learned that like in the last couple of years that like stop hearing it. way and start hearing it as, no, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I can try to imagine when you, when you describe it to me, like, do you know what it's like to be objectified? Do you know what it's like to feel like you don't know what someone's taking you seriously? Do you know what it's like? I don't know exactly what that's like. I've had examples in my life of circumstances where that happened so I can I can feel some empathy when you describe it to me. But the first step is for me not to hear it defensively. So true. And I think in relationship, that's a big, big piece of this. One of the things that women right now get really, really wrong because the culture is jamming it down their throats is that any time a man says anything about what's difficult for him, that it turns into a pissing match between the two of them of do you know how hard I have it instead of you? And it's just so dismissive and unnecessary.

Starting point is 00:30:14 like we all have things we're grappling with and if we love each other we can hear that without it being defensive. I also think one of the mistakes I see a lot of women make in relationship is mistaking like saying, well, you should have talked to me about that. But not creating conditions where a person can feel safe talking about something. Like telling a woman something she doesn't want to hear is not something men are good at. We don't like it. It's not fun. Like when you guys are upset, there's nothing more frightening to a heterosexual man than the sound of a woman you're dating saying, what's wrong? Nothing. No, it's definitely something. Like, what's the something? No, nothing's fine. Oh my God. Like, it's definitely bad. Like,

Starting point is 00:31:03 what did I do? What did I say? Is something going? Is it me? It's something. I think creating conditions where we can have conversations with each other about like what's really going on here and where we can disappoint each other a little, like where I can I can tell you something you don't want to hear. Like I can't tell you how many women come in and their husband's cheating on them and they say like, well, you know, he's humiliated me. Like if he just and I'll read the papers that they filed and I'm like, they hadn't had sex in seven years. And she's like, well, you know, he never told me that did any year. Like, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, you're telling me if he had sat you down and said, listen,

Starting point is 00:31:43 I feel like we're really physically disconnected, and I feel like my eye is starting to wander, and I don't want to go down that road, but like we really need to reconnect somehow, that your response would have been, well, thank you for sharing that with me. It's hard for me to hear that, but I really appreciate that you're at,

Starting point is 00:31:58 no, the answer would have been, well, what the fuck do you want from me? Like, you're never home, and then when you get home, you're all kinds of stress, and I'm supposed to just, like, show up in a negligence in those circumstances. Come on. Like, it turns into this defensive thing.

Starting point is 00:32:09 And again, men are partly to blame for that because when you go like, well, how come we're not having sex anymore? Like, we're off to a bad start. Like, that's going to bring out nothing but defensiveness. Whereas if you said, you know, I drove past that restaurant that we went to, remember that weekend when we first were dating and I drove, I drove past it. And all I could think about was how remember after that we went back to my apartment and we like didn't leave the bed for like a day and a half.

Starting point is 00:32:31 That was like the best, man. Like I just, I think about that day sometime. Now we're in. Now we're in. I'm like prime in the pump now because now you're like, okay, come with me. Remember? Come with me. Remember how fun that was?

Starting point is 00:32:44 Remember when we were so connected to each other? Remember how close we felt to each other? And use that as the entry point to be like, you know, we should make time for that. Like, I'm sorry if I don't make time for that. Like, I love feeling that connected to you. Now we're having the same conversation. Why haven't we been as physically connected? But instead of it being a criticism, it's about come with me to this place.

Starting point is 00:33:07 where we used to be together. And somehow we're not there anymore. And that's your fault and my fault and everybody's fault and nobody's fault. I don't care. I don't care whose fault it is. I just want to be there with you. I still think you're wonderful. Why is that the natural state for relationships where we get so defensive with, like, our partner in a way that almost I don't think we get defensive when anybody else gives us feedback?

Starting point is 00:33:31 Well, I think we feel like safe venting with our partner because it's like, no, you're here. You're stuck with me. There's a sense of that. Like marriage, you know, marriage is like a moat around a relationship. Like a lot of people are like, I'm going to boot this moat and then it'll, we'll have this ring and that means we'll be together forever. It's like, no, it doesn't. Like that's, you know, I have a friend Mark Delaney who's a psychedelic facilitator.

Starting point is 00:33:55 And he often says to me, it always makes me laugh. He's like, relax, nothing's under control. Like, relax. Nothing's under control. And it's true. Like, I try to tell myself that all the time. I'm like, relax, nothing's under control. Like there's, because marriage is a symbol.

Starting point is 00:34:11 That's all it is, is a symbol. We've decided we're going to create this legal connection or spiritual connection that's going to symbolize this way of keeping the relationship safe. It's an illusion. It's not real. It's still worth, symbols are worth something. Like, I think we live in a world of symbols. Like, I'm wearing one.

Starting point is 00:34:31 Like, I could go to court and do a really good job cross-examining somebody in shorts and a t-shirt. It's just my brain. You don't need the rest of me. Like the Farragamo shoes don't do it. Like it's, but why do I wear this? It's a symbol. I take this seriously. It's a symbol of I am wearing this because I want you to know I take this interaction

Starting point is 00:34:49 seriously. That's all marriage is is a symbol. You're just trying to create this symbol of our, but to then think that you've now really dug a successful moat around this thing and it's impervious to the slings and arrows that are coming at the relationship. You're kidding yourself. So true. If anything, it actually makes you maybe drop your defenses.

Starting point is 00:35:11 She's like, oh, no, we got the moat. We got this thing around it now. We're good. We're married. No, it's not safe. The illusion that it's got a wall around it and a moat around it will make you forget that it's fragile. Love is not permanently gifted. It's loaned, you know, and maybe remind yourself regularly that there were eight billion options.

Starting point is 00:35:34 And you pick this person and they picked you. Why not protect that thing? Yeah, the symbol's so true. I mean, I do think about why I take, you know, Kim Kardashian so seriously on her show is the outfits. I think it's most. That's exactly right. You know? You could literally never let me live that down.

Starting point is 00:35:53 Every, the minute, you know, the minute that show got renewed, you texted me that day. That day. I love it. It's so campy and amazing. And every time the outfit shows like a thong, I just, I put your. face on the outfit. It's really incredible. And I just find such joy. I am so glad that it gives you this level of joy. I have to say, I take joy in how much joy it gives you. I really do because you're torturing me. You're torturing me. I'm in my office not wearing a thong

Starting point is 00:36:23 and like I'm in my office that's not shaped like a Volvo with windows. Like every office in that show is incredible. It's like a German architect's dream. And instead we're like, in these sterile buildings in conference rooms with a bunch of, yeah, fluorescent lights and a bunch of like short balding dudes. No Kardashian's insight. And none of us are like, I'm having sex with your clients. Like, well, so am I.

Starting point is 00:36:47 You know, like, it's none of that. Like that's, I watched that show and I'm like, this job is so exciting. I think I want to be a divorce lawyer when I grow up. Like, I feel like the interns are coming in for the summer now and they're like, why isn't everybody having sex in the conference room table? Like, this is, you guys suck. I thought you were like a cool firm, you know?

Starting point is 00:37:06 Yeah, the tattoos, you really were selling it. I really was. Yeah, I know. They haven't asked me to do a guest spot on that show yet. I can't imagine. And I'd love to do a cameo. I'd love to do a cameo. Whoever out there, Kim, hit me up. I'm in. Oh, my God. I would watch it again just for that. Just for that. You know, I want to go back to men and women again. So you've also said that men and women actually experienced cheating differently. What does that mean? I mean, again, this is an unfalsifiable premise because it's just based on my observations, but that's, you know, 26 years. is worth of representing the cheated and the cheated on, you know, so the cheater and the cheated on. So I've seen both sides of that equation. What my observation has been is that when there is cheating, first of all, like we've created a culture where it is totally unacceptable to take someone back after cheating, even though cheating is such a regular thing. Like it, I mean,

Starting point is 00:37:59 adultery as a technology has been around probably like five minutes shorter than monogamy. Like I feel like there was a caveman somewhere who was like, I think you and I should just be together just the two of us and then walked out and saw another person in a loincloth and was like, well, maybe real quick. Like there had to be, because it's been around. I mean, if you think about it, like, if you believe that God gave us 10 rules, you know, two of them were don't commit adultery. Don't cover your neighbor's wife.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Don't commit adultery. Thou shall not kill got one. Like, you just had to say that once. But like, don't commit adultery. Seriously, don't covet your neighbor's wife, dude. Like, God felt he had to repeat himself on that one. That's whether you believe that that was like divine providence or not, it'll tell you the problem's been around a while. You know, if it was carved in stone somewhere, it's been around a while, whoever invented it.

Starting point is 00:38:48 So we've been dealing with this for a while, but we also do not give people the grace of like, yeah, this person made a mistake. This person, like, I represent a lot of people that cheated. None of them ever woke up and said, you know, I think I'm going to fuck my. my whole life up today. I think I'm going to completely ruin it, damage my partner and they're trusted me and they're trust in anyone forever, and also probably cause some collateral damage with this other person who I'm going to have this triangulated relationship with. I think that's going to be a good use of time today. Like usually it's just this small progression of kind of poor decisions, things you probably knew you shouldn't do. And again, like, I don't fault

Starting point is 00:39:29 people for that. Like, I give people some grace for that because I'll tell you something. Like, It's a bad metaphor, but like, if there's potato chips in my house, I'm eating them. Like, I'm eating them. Like, that's why I don't buy potato chips because I can control my food environment better than I can control my brain. I don't trust my brain. Like, and I don't trust my stomach. But, like, I trust the fact that when I'm in the store, I don't have to buy potato chips.

Starting point is 00:39:52 So I don't buy them. Or if I buy them, I go, okay, I'm going to eat them. Like, you hang out the barbershop long enough to get a haircut. Like, if I'm talking to a bunch of beautiful women on a regular basis, I'm going to want to have sex with one or more of them. That's how it works. So if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship, don't do it. Don't give yourself that occasion to do that. Like make a point of protecting that and not doing it. The thing that's interesting to me, and I've talked about before and I talk about my book, is the question when people are confronted about adultery. Because the man's first question is,

Starting point is 00:40:29 did you have sex with him? And the woman's first question is, do you love her? And that tells me something about how men and women perceive relationships slightly differently. Now, again, not every man, not every woman, but as a general category, I think women, a lot of it is about, is this person now in a higher priority than me? Do you have a deeper connection, affection, desire for, you know, protective instinct toward, like, are they more important than me? Because there's something about, like, being so important to someone. And for men, there's this sense of, like, this woman is my woman. She's my, you know, I don't want to say property, but she's mine. Like, she's mine. And I don't want anyone else to be able to lay claim to her,

Starting point is 00:41:21 to her body. It's just mine. It's just for me, you know. And by the way, a lot of women, I think, would find that very appealing for a man to say, like, yeah, like, you're mine. Like, I want you to be mine. I don't, like, I've had lots of problems in relationships because I'm not a very jealous person. And more than once a woman has been like, like, don't you care about me. And it's like, of course, I'm just not insecure. Like, I, you can be flirtatious with people as long as you come back to me. Like, I don't, you know, as long as we have lines that we're not going to cross. Like, if you want to go out with your girlfriends and dance and flirt and stuff, like it, I don't care. Like, I'm not insecure. It doesn't bother.

Starting point is 00:41:56 me. If the only thing that's keeping you from running off with other men is that you're not proximate to other men, we're in trouble. Like, I'm a fan of monogamy, a model of monogamy where I have sex with as many people as I want, which is one, just one. Because like, when I'm full, I don't want to eat anymore. Like, when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. So if you're in a relationship and you're satisfied, great. Like, monogamy for me and all this idea of cheating is, is the idea that you're not going to cheat because that's the rule we've agreed to? Because that seems really stupid. Like if Chris came home and he was like, listen, I just want you to know, like, there's a bunch of women I really wanted to have sex with today, but I didn't have sex with any

Starting point is 00:42:40 of them. I totally stayed with the rules. Like, what do you want a cookie? Like, okay. Like, how am I supposed to feel better about that? Like, whereas if it, you look, if it was, yeah, like, I'm happy. I got you. What do I want more? I got you. I don't need anything more than that. Like, that's what monogamy is supposed to be. So when does it become no longer our responsibility if we're going to be in a relationship to make sure that our partner feels physically connected to us? I think we owe it to our partner. Like if you're, I've always said in relationship, like if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship. If I'm going to trade having sex with lots of women for having sex with you regularly, then that's the deal. Like, that's the

Starting point is 00:43:24 economy that we've agreed to. And I think that's very fair. And I'm asking you to do the same thing. So I owe it to you to try to satisfy you. You owe it to me to try to satisfy me because we don't have to do this thing. We don't have to have that rule. We can say, okay, we're going to sleep with other people. But if we're going to have this thing, why don't we just call out that economy and say, hey, let's make sure that we're protecting these values? James has this incredible line about how a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows the judge. Business works the exact same way. There's like a game underneath the game that the pros play every day and other people don't even realize they're playing it. Actually, my new book, Owner Be Owned, well, this is it right here. Isn't it cute?

Starting point is 00:44:05 This is the manual for scaling your business towards more profit and less paying. I spent 15 years inside the biggest companies on Wall Street watching private equity buy good businesses for pennies and great businesses for billions. You want to know what separates them? Great businesses use these systems. The systems that run businesses so good, the owner can grow alongside the business as opposed to getting owned by it. It's the exact operating system I use across the businesses that make up multiple nine figures. The same ones I teach to thousands of owners in our contrarian boardroom, but it costs them tens of thousands of dollars a year. Owner be owned is for you and we are going to do so many giveaways live. You're not going to be able

Starting point is 00:44:46 to handle it on September 18th with a free live event. Every attendee is going to I get something that I wish I got 10 years ago, it would have made me way more money. So scan the link in the QR or click the description. Let's get back to my conversation with James Sexton. What percentage of divorces have, you know, affairs are non-monautomity? I mean, a massive number. A massive. I would be speculating because it's hard to measure those things.

Starting point is 00:45:11 I would say close to 70 to 80 percent where there's some, where infidelity played some part in some degree. Like, how many is I've fallen in love with another person and I'm leaving you? That's a smaller percentage, although still shockingly high. But there's a lot of, like, yeah, he cheated and I took him back or she cheated and I took her back and then, you know, she still betrayed me in this way or that way. There's a lot of of, yeah, they were flirting with this person or like a lot of times. And again, I tend to think that I look at the infidelity, the financial impropriety, the dishonesty, all as the symptoms of the,

Starting point is 00:45:51 underlying illness and the illness is the disconnection. Yeah, the lack of attention. The lack of attention, the lack of connection. The, you know, the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. Like, we lie to our partners all the time, but it's mostly because we're lying to ourselves. Like, we're, we're busy thinking about who we wish we were and not looking at who we actually are, you know, and we're relating to the world and our partner, like, this is who I want to be, not who I actually am. You know, and I had a, some years ago, my one of my sons, my younger son, he's 26 now, but he was in his early 20s at the time. And we were having a very difficult moment in our relationship as father and son. And he was, he was venting to me about the things I,

Starting point is 00:46:40 I had gotten wrong. Like as, you know, and I wanted to create space for that. And he was like, you know, you're so occupied with work all the time and you were never here for this. And, and I, like really listened to what he had to say, you know, and I wanted to hear it. Like, I wanted to hear it and absorb it and not be defensive. But about halfway through this sort of venting, I said, you know, Bill, who are you comparing me to? Like, are you comparing me to your imaginary perfect father? Because here's what I'll say. You're allowed to do that. But then I'm going to compare you to my imaginary perfect son and you suck like he's a black belt in brazilian jiu jutsu he is so cool we have so much fun he and i he's like finishing law school or med school right now but he's like not stuck

Starting point is 00:47:30 up about it and he's at the same taste of music as me we go to like concerts together sometimes and like every father's day he like posts some pictures that he and i and he's like best dad ever like you suck compared to him you're like awful compared to him like but by the way i love you like So much. Like so much it hurts. It's like looking at the sun how much I love you. Like I can't, once I look away. It's like I love you that much. Just you, the way you actually are. Not my as you compare to my imaginary son. Like so could we? And I said to him like, if you don't learn this in our relationship, just learn it. Because if you compare a woman in your life someday, if you compare your wife someday to your imaginary perfect wife, she is going to.

Starting point is 00:48:16 going to disappoint the shit out of you. So compare people to real people. Compare or or learn how to like meet someone where they're at because that's how you want to be loved. Like if you want me to love you for who you are, not as compared to this imaginary perfect ideal, you have to be prepared to give me that same grace. And I think that's the part in relationship. Like the algorithm has taken away our proclivity towards doing that. It is in fact encouraged the opposite. In engagement, this boys versus girls bullshit that's out there that everyone has now picked up is like the greatest grift ever, pander, pander, pander. All these men being like, guys, let me tell you something.

Starting point is 00:48:59 If a woman feels defensive around you, it's because you're the one who's attacking. And all the women are like, yes, he's so right. Everybody's just pandering to the algorithm. They want the traction. They want the engagement. Instead of like being honest with the somewhat complex truth, which is that, look, women get it men get it wrong. There's stuff women are dealing with that men aren't. There's stuff men's dealing with that women aren't. There's stuff we're both dealing with like men or woman, you know,

Starting point is 00:49:25 like there's so much going on that again, like if we just stopped with this ridiculous, combative approach that love is a zero sum game. Like, listen, a world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving. And a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. We are in this together, guys. This is a knife fight in a closet. Like, Do you think that just stabbing is the answer? I promise you it's not. Are you happy? Do you feel better?

Starting point is 00:49:52 Does your friends seem happier in their relationships? Or does everyone seem like they're just spiraling down into, yeah, we all just hate the other side, the boys versus girls? Like, instead of just like acknowledging how different some things are for us, but how much we love each other, sometimes inexplicably for the dumbest things. You know, like, and it's just lovely to be loved like that and to feel that love for another person. Like, I just feel like we could do so much better at that. Well, it's funny because I remember I was texting you about one of our reels we did. And it was about what do men really want and what do women really want? And the TLDR was like, men want the nudes, women want the flowers.

Starting point is 00:50:38 And there was a lot more context and tongue and cheek about it. But people in the comments were crazy. They were like so mad at you. They're like, how dare you? say that men love the female body. No man should ever want that because we're going to that means he's going to post you on every public profile and you monster,

Starting point is 00:50:54 right? And then, you know, then of course the other women were like, I hate fucking flowers. We were like, whoa. Like, everybody calmed down for a second. But I really do think a lot of people wake up just looking to get offended now and they get right on there like looking to get offended and I get it. I get it.

Starting point is 00:51:10 I get it, man. I post and ghosts. Like I try not to engage it. Because when I do engage it, like I try to engage it the way I would engage cross-examination, which is like, it's, you know, you're going to argue with me. I get paid $1,000 an hour to argue. It's a bad fucking idea. Like, well, first of all, I won't do it for free.

Starting point is 00:51:27 Like, it's not fair to the paying customers. Like, so I'm not, I used to say to my sons when they were teenagers. I'm sorry, I can't argue with you for free. Like, that's not cool. Like, people pay me a lot of money to argue for them. I can't do it for you for free. That's not okay. Like, I'll get you gift certificate for Christmas.

Starting point is 00:51:41 I'll argue with you for two hours. Like, there you go. You can space it out in six minute increments if you want to. Dude, this is a new business line for you. I would a thousand percent participate in this. We would want to buy an argument with me. Yeah, because I just would be like, ah, God, I didn't even see that left hook coming. It's not fun.

Starting point is 00:51:54 It's not fun. But the truth of all of this is, we're really, again, it goes back to that other thing I said. When I say, you know, a lot of men really like nudes, guys, it's true. Like, you don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be true for your relationship, okay, but it's true. generally it's true. Like, so it's okay to just say that. Like, I didn't say, did you know all men like nudes and you owe them nudes?

Starting point is 00:52:22 Did you know that? Like, if I said that, it's a perfectly reasonable response to be like, you have your head up your ass, Jim. I made a totally honest comment that no reasonable person would argue against. And I get pilloried for it. And it's totally fine. I don't really care because the truth is, is you want to conduct the orchestra, you got to turn your on the audience. Like, I don't care. The reason people, when people come up to me on the street and say, oh, my God, I really love your work. And it's always the same thing they say. You're like so blunt.

Starting point is 00:52:54 You just say it like it is. You just, and I'm like, you know, because I'm just, I don't care. Like, I think it's totally okay. And by the way, I don't mean that in the like, well, I don't care kind of way that people like intentionally. Like, no, I really don't. Like, I really, like, my beliefs don't require you to believe them. It's okay. I have a very defined sense of self. And by the way, I can see the possibility I might be wrong. There have been times where I've had it. You can't talk for as many hours as I do on interviews and not get some things wrong or have a blind spot. I had a woman the other day send me a message on Instagram about like, here, I think you got this take wrong.

Starting point is 00:53:29 And I wrote her back. And I was like, oh, you know, I actually think this. And she wrote back. And we ended up having like a really interesting dialogue. And I thought to myself, this is lovely. Like, it's lovely because she didn't start with you're obviously a misogynist scumbagic. It was like, okay, that, wow. Like, why don't you share with me why you think something differently?

Starting point is 00:53:47 And then I'll share with you where I was coming from. And maybe we'll find some commonality together. It's so funny. I always think of the, I forget who the comic is. But he famously talks about how he's like, you know what? The Internet's comment section is like, you go to the park. There's a, there's a like guitar lesson sheet up on the wall. On the bottom are like, you know, your name, number, guitar lessons.

Starting point is 00:54:09 You call if you want a guitar lesson. Yeah. And you just randomly pick it out. you dial the number the other person answers and you go i don't want fucking guitar lessons yeah you're like okay don't call the number yeah go anywhere i'll even take it a step further it's like you call and go why you hate tubas it's like what what did i say about tubas like no i mean because all the only thing people need to learn is how to play guitar like really really drums don't matter percussion's useless like a way i didn't i literally said none of that like i actually don't even

Starting point is 00:54:40 feel that way. Like I, it's better when there's a drummer with, what, how, why am I defending myself right now? Like, what is this conversation? Who are you, by the way? Like, who are you? I don't know you. You don't know me. Why do you hate me? But again, like that, that's got nothing to do with me. No. Like, I'm, I don't know who hurt you if the nudes comment upset you that much. I'm sorry they did. Like, they shouldn't have. Like, as a human being, like, I, they should. They, That's awful. Whatever must have happened to you that made you feel that like. Also, I love flowers.

Starting point is 00:55:14 And I love nudes. I love nudes or flowers. Ideally, flowers with nudes. Like, what a combo. It's like pizza. When it's good, it's great.

Starting point is 00:55:23 When it's bad, it's still pretty good. I don't know. I feel like, I asked Chris the other day, I was like, seriously, I find such joy.

Starting point is 00:55:29 When I look at these flowers and I walk by them, I don't know what it is. I find massive joy looking at his flower. I go, what do you feel? He's like, not a damn thing.

Starting point is 00:55:37 I feel nothing inside. Look at this flower. And I said, Do you think that's normal? I think this is quite normal. Yeah. And I think there's something really beautiful about that, though. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:44 Because I think, again, I don't want to be in a relationship with me. Like, I like polarity. Like, I like something different than me. Like, I think that the softness and the hardness of us, I think the fact that, like, that there's just a lid for every pot, like, there's something different. And I think there's something so beautiful about that. Like, I can't learn everything I need to know about. myself from myself.

Starting point is 00:56:11 No. Like I need, I need someone different than me who's going to help me see things differently and who's going to see things themselves differently that makes me. Like, there's something so amazing about you saying, like, isn't that beautiful to you? And me going, no, I don't see it. You know, like, but doesn't another person's excitement excite you? Oh, for sure. Like, I don't, like, I'm a New Yorker.

Starting point is 00:56:31 I've been a New Yorker a long time. I live in Manhattan. I don't watch basketball. But, God, everybody was so excited about the Knicks. How could you not be? Like New York comes together, but usually we come together because of tragedies. Usually it's like 9-11 or Katrina or COVID. And like this was like everyone.

Starting point is 00:56:51 The Wall Street executive and the bodega guy are both standing outside the bar, watching the thing on the screen and cheering at the same time. And it was like I was so excited about everyone's excitement. Like I've never played golf in my life. But I have friends who play golf. and when they talked to me about golf, they talked to me about it like they were talking about a lover. You know,

Starting point is 00:57:12 that they're just, it's like when Chris and I went off at our dinner about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and you just sat there for like a couple of minutes just watching us turn into two little teenage boys, like all excited about, well, I do a bow and arrow choke. I put my arm under knee.

Starting point is 00:57:24 Oh, yeah, we'll least see. I find him with the ghee. It's a lot, you know, and you're just sitting there watching the two of us. And I remember the look on your face was one of like, oh my God, you guys are so cute. Like, you're so excited right now. about like your little ground karate.

Starting point is 00:57:39 Do med like to be called cute? I don't know if we like to be called cute, but I think behind closed doors knowing that like a woman who loves us thinks for cute. Things for cute is allowed. Yeah. Like I don't know if I said to you like, oh, Cody's so cute.

Starting point is 00:57:52 You'd be like, excuse me, it's kind of condescending. But if you heard like, Jim was like, oh, my God, you are adorable. You would be like, okay. Like, I don't mind being adorable. What's interesting because, like, I remember reading somewhere that you were trained in persuasion. Or that was one of your... Yeah, my master's degree is in mass persuasion.

Starting point is 00:58:11 In persuasion and negotiation, which is fascinating because it seems like a lot of communication. Yeah. And, well, marriage, according to you, a lot of it is about disconnection, bad communication, lack of attention. Yeah. And then it seems like there's such difference in the way we communicate. You could say, oh, Jim, he's cute. Or you could say, Jim, when he is so excited talking about Jiu-Jitsu and how tough he is,

Starting point is 00:58:36 it's so cute, isn't it? And those two things actually mean something very, very different. Because the energy of that is so different. The energy and you know it as it's coming out of your mouth. Like the energy of it is so different. And I think that I think what you're really on to, and I think it's because you do have background in sales as well. I think in sales, we know that like it's not the steak, it's the sizzle. That's true. And that's what people want. And I think it's really the way you parse it. You know, I always tell. my clients that the way you ask the question very often dictates the answer. And the example that I always give is there's a joke about, you know, these two monks and they're standing around together talking about praying and smoking at the same time. And they're having a disagreement about that. And so they both agree they're going to write the Pope. And they write the Pope. A couple weeks goes by and they come back and they say, well, turns out I was right. And the guy says, what do you mean? It turns out I was right. He goes, well, wait a minute. What did you do? He goes, I wrote the Pope and I said, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying,

Starting point is 00:59:38 you should be paying attention to what you're doing. And the other guy says, well, I wrote him and said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking? And he was like, yeah, you should pray as often as he can. Like, if you pray whenever you want. Like, so how you ask the question dictates the answer. And so I think when you think about communicating with your partner, you know, last time we talked, I gave the example, which I think again got clipped and I got yelled at for. It is, I gave the example of shaving. And I talked about how when I dated, a woman who, you know, had sensitive skin and how she would be like, oh, my God, your face is so scratchy and how it made me feel defensive and stupid and self-conscious and kind of irritated.

Starting point is 01:00:14 Like, oh, great, now I got to shave every weekend as well as every weekday. And then the next relationship I had, she had the same issue, but she just did the like, oh, my God, you're so sexy when you're clean shaving. You're like Don Draper and madman, you know, I would shave three times a day. But it was the same thing. She just parsed it in a way of like, here's what I love. about you. Here's this thing that I find so sexy about you. So what is the framework there? So like let's say you want to, you're in the courtroom.

Starting point is 01:00:43 You're trying to get somebody do what you want them to do. Is this priming? Like, what are the things you need to do? The best cross examination. Like people watch law and order and movies like a few good men and they think that cross examination is like, isn't it true that you're a terrible husband? And they're like, it's true. You're right. I get, you know, like I did it. I ordered the code red. like this is like a Perry Mason moment. It's not what good cross-examination looks like. Good cross-examination at the highest level is getting a person to commit to a set of principles that they think supports their argument and then snapping their neck with that. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar

Starting point is 01:01:27 raised matters. On September 19th, joined thousands in Toronto for the principal Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca. So you get them to commit to... Now, sir, one of the reasons why you want custody of your son is that it's important for you to be there for him. Isn't that right?

Starting point is 01:02:00 Yes. in fact, you don't just want to be there on the weekends. You want to be there during the week because the heavy lifting of parenting is a really important part, isn't it? Yes. And in fact, if somebody just wants to do the fun part of parenting, they really have no business claiming that they're a real parent. Isn't that right?

Starting point is 01:02:16 Now, what can you say? But yes. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you missed the last six parent teacher conferences for your child? Like, isn't it a fact, sir, that on Wednesday nights, you participate in this basketball league instead of going to your son's ball? Now, again, I had you commit to principles. Principles you thought were supportive of your argument.

Starting point is 01:02:34 And by the way, if you disagreed with them, I can weaponize that against you too. So again, what is a good cross-examination? It's getting, it's just like in relationship. What commit to the principle. Isn't it a fact that I'm an important person in your life? Yes. Isn't it a fact that I'm as important as your golf game? Yes.

Starting point is 01:02:55 And yet, sir, isn't it true that the last three weekends you spent more time playing golf than talking to me. You know, like, isn't it, isn't it a fact that I am more important to you than Instagram? Well, yes. Okay. So then how much of your bandwidth on your phone was spent on Instagram versus messaging were talking to me? Like, again, evidence, evidence, evidence.

Starting point is 01:03:17 Like, it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove. If you cross-examined your relationship, yourself about your relationship, what principles would I commit you to? And then how would I snap your neck? How do you counter that leading line of questioning with the one word response? It's so good. Like, what if you don't want to answer in one word responses? Well, that's the beauty across examination. It's not a fair fight. They have to. Interesting. I've moved to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive. Oh, man. People all the time go, well, yes, but I wanted to do-da-move to strike the portion of the answer is

Starting point is 01:03:54 non-responsive. Like you just keep yes or no. Isn't it a fact that you, and I can then make you look foolish and evasive. Isn't it a fact, ma'am, that you went to the pool that day? Well, yes, but I did. so yes. Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you a number of questions that are going to be yes or no questions. If you could answer them accordingly, you know, like, and you just pin the person down. Now, the thing that good lawyers do is I am as interested in the other side's case against my client as I am in my case against their client. So I'm going to do what I jokingly in my office call the eight mile strategy based on the M&M movie eight mile where at the end, you know, he wins the rap battle by basically getting up and saying all the terrible things about himself that the other person's about to say. And then he hands the guy to Mike and says, tell the people something they don't know about me. and the guys just standing there like, because he's got nothing.

Starting point is 01:04:55 He just, he shot himself with all the ammo that the other guy was going to hit him with. I do that in court all the time. I say to my clients all the time, we're going to do the eight mile strategy, which is every single thing they're going to hit you on cross-examination with, I'm going to hit you with first. I'm going to say, I show you what's been marked for identification of plaintiff's exhibit A. Do you recognize this? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:13 What is it? This is a text message. Who's it from? It's from me. Who's it to the defendant, my wife? Uh-huh. Could you read it out loud for the court? I'd rather not. Go ahead and do it anyway. I can't fucking stand you and I wish you would die. Uh, I think, did you write that to her? Yes. You think that was a good thing to do? No. Do you think that helped your co-parenting relationship? No. What effect do you think that

Starting point is 01:05:46 had on her? It probably really upset her. Why did you do it? She had sent me 30 texts. messages in the last two days where she just cursed me a million times and finally I just lost it and I just sent her this nasty text message. If you had it to do over again, would you send that text message? You know, I'd like to say that I wouldn't, but the truth is I'm human and I have a breaking point and she had pushed me to it at that point and I did something stupid and I sent something as low as the 50 messages she sent me before. Boom. I just, and I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out pages of the cross-examination. They thought they were going to light my guy up with and it's gone. I just took all away. I took all your ammo away. Now what? Now what? What do you have?

Starting point is 01:06:36 You got nothing. I got out in front of it. I made a weakness into my client being so candid and honest and about his humanity and about his breaking point. I just turned your prize winning testimony into my client talking about the 50 mean messages her client sent. You know, so that's that's what good, like, it's why I love my job, even after 25 years of doing it, is that it's full contact storytelling. Like, I'm trying to tell a story while you try to stop me from telling that story and tell a different story. And it's the most fun job in the world for that reason. What do you think the biggest mistake people make is when they're trying to persuade someone of something? Well, you know, we were talking about it before we sat down that there's nothing

Starting point is 01:07:18 less cool than trying to be cool. And there's nothing worse than a same. And there's nothing worse than a salesman that you know is trying to sell you something. Like the best salesperson, you just have a problem and they want to help solve it. Like that's it. Like, and it's the same, the worst persuasion is blatantly obvious persuasion. Like it really, like the best advocacy does not look like advocacy. It's just me going, you know, Your Honor, I don't know. I'm not. Listen, this guy walked into my office hired me. If his wife had come in 15 minutes earlier, I'd probably be arguing the opposite of things. But you know what? It seems to me looking at these two. And now, guess what? I'm advocating. It just doesn't sound like it. Like it just doesn't look like it because it's not so obvious. Like it's hilarious

Starting point is 01:07:57 because when I litigate against like, you know, like like new lawyers or like self-represented parties because now with AI, everybody thinks they're a fucking lawyer. And they're sitting there like, here, four, had here. I'm like, you're trying to sound so much like a lawyer. You don't sound a damn thing like a lawyer right now. Like, but and look, I get it. Like when I was a young lawyer, I remember I was one of my first big, big cases. Like, like, I was probably five years into my practice. It was the first case where there was like a million dollar marital estate or more. And I remember my adversary was a very experienced high net worth divorce lawyer.

Starting point is 01:08:33 And I was like this like, you know, I'd never done a case this big. And so I'd studied like all of their marital assets and how it worked and did it on. The judge brings us into chambers. And, you know, it's off the record. It's just the two lawyers and the judge. And I was like, oh, well, your honor. Parties here have a fairly diverse asset profile that's somewhat complex in nature. they have an array of this.

Starting point is 01:08:53 And obviously, that I'm trying to like sound very learned and I'm looking at my adversary who's clearly had, you know, a hundred cases with this kind of thing. We finish and I finished my little speech and she looks over at my adversary. And he goes, yeah,

Starting point is 01:09:06 I don't understand their finances at all. It's like really complicated from what I can tell. We're just going to probably need accountants to explain it to us because I'm not an accountant. And I was like, oh shit. Like that, like that was so much better.

Starting point is 01:09:18 Like that was so much better. Like he, and by the way, he totally understand. understands it better than I do. But that like little humble goes a long way. Like in that whole like, yeah, I don't know. I was looking at it. And I was trying to make sense of that. I'm not that, you know, you got to explain it to me like I'm a seven year old, you know. And it. And all of a sudden, like, oh, he's doing the thing. He's like doing the advocacy thing. But it's like, oh, shucks. I don't know what I'm talking about. And I have to tell you like to me, that's the best lawyering. It's the best like the best negotiation. You don't know we're in a negotiation. The best seduction, you don't know I'm trying to seduce you. Next thing you know, you're just in bed with me. Like, and you kind of go, how'd that happen? You know, like, and that, because again, the more that it's like, right, like, I'm clearly

Starting point is 01:10:00 trying to get you in bed, that's not what's going to work. What's going to work is like, I find you fascinating. Like, that is like, what? Okay. You know, like, now you got my attention. So I really think that that's the best kind of advocacy is that that covert advocacy. Yeah, I always know I'm about to get totally hoisted one over on in a deal. when it's because I live in Texas, as you know,

Starting point is 01:10:24 but in Texas, when it's an older Texan and a slower draw, and it happened to me once early on, and now I know to look for it, and he's like, well, you know, I don't know, I'm just a, I'm just a slower Texan over here from,

Starting point is 01:10:39 and I just, I have, but explain to me and then proceeds to ask the most obliterating of questions, but it's that self-deprecation. Why wouldn't I, and then he explains the counter theory that you're like, oh shit, I was hoping he didn't know that that was a possibility. If you're paying this for that, why wouldn't I just do this instead?

Starting point is 01:10:59 I must be dumb. And you're like, oh, you're so much smarter than I. I got nothing for this. Yeah, I got nothing. That's kryptonite right there. And look, there's something, again, like, don't sweat the technique. Like, that is beautiful, beautiful stuff. And I think we have a lot to learn from that because it's kind of all in negotiation, isn't it? Like, all of this stuff, our whole lives is a series of negotiations. It's a series of arguments. Like, we've got it in our heads that, like, an argument is about making the other person feel small. But it's actually not. It's really about, like, a series of logical steps to get a person to view things the way that, you know, your position would, would help them be viewed that way, like that feeds into the flow you're trying

Starting point is 01:11:43 to get them through. So, yeah, I think there's a tremendous value in, like, watching how people do it well. Yeah. I know there was a there was a quote, something like a good lawyer knows the law, a great lawyer knows the judge. 100%. Yeah. And that joke is funny on two levels because people think it means like, oh, we know the judge. But what it means is I know what annoys this judge. I know what resonates with this judge. Like there are judges here that I know they really like sports metaphors. So I'll like my opposing counsel's Hail Mary pass is that, you know, Your Honor, he's trying to call an audible right now on this. And I, again, I'm not into sports, but I know enough that I can, like, use those metaphors. You know who's apparent and who's not.

Starting point is 01:12:27 You know who's divorced themselves and who's not. Like, you know people's, like, you get to know what works with this judge. Sometimes, by the way, by being on the receiving end of the opposite, like, sometimes you make an argument and you're like, well, that one didn't work. Or you watch your opposing counsel in this case make an effective argument. And then you say, well, you know, Your Honor, as in that other matter we have together, when my adversary said X, Y, and Z, so you start to, like, know the judge's proclivities. That's a lot of what you're doing when you hire experience counselors. You're hiring someone who kind of knows the proclivities of the judge. But again, that's all about just like in relationship. It's all about paying attention,

Starting point is 01:13:05 like paying attention to this unique organism that's in front of you. That's why at the end of a day at trial, I'm exhausted in a way that I don't even know how to put into words because I'm, I'm It's kind of like when I was a waiter. Like, it is so hard to make it look so easy. Yeah. You know, you go in the kitchen and it's like, fire food on five. Either time they say, I got this dying on the bar. And then you walk out and you're like, everything's so serene, you know.

Starting point is 01:13:31 Of course I'll get that for you right now. You know, and then you go back and you're like, I need ranch out five, you know. But the truth is, like, you, it takes a lot of effort to make something look so easy. The same thing happens in, in courtrooms. Like, by the time we walk into the courtroom, the trial's like half over. Like when I was a kid, my parents used to have barbecues. And my mom would like go to the store, buy all these ingredients, chop everything up, marinate it, prepare it beautifully. And my dad would take it, put it on the grill, and then take it off the grill.

Starting point is 01:14:05 And everyone would go, oh my God, no, you're such a good cook. Like she had done 99.9% of the difficult work. He had literally just been there for the last mile of the marathon. if even like the point two part of the 26.2. And he would get all the credit. And I think that that's what happens at trials. Like at trials, it's like by the time you walk in that courtroom, all the prep works done, all the hard work's done. I think it's the same thing with relationships too. It's like, you know, by the time you guys are in the fight, it's kind of too late. Like a lot of people learn how to fight while they're in a fight. That's the worst time to learn how to fight.

Starting point is 01:14:40 Like really? Like when you're dating somebody and you're not in a fight, have a conversation about getting in a fight. Like say to them, by the way, we're going to get in a fight. Like, it'll probably be my fault. I'll probably say something stupid. I tend to say dumb shit sometimes. So when we get in a fight, what works for you? Do you need a minute? Should I like not try to force the conversation? Do you need to cool off? Or are you the like, hey, we got to figure this out tonight. Like we can't go to bed mad type. Because like, I'll meet you where you're at. You know, like I, again, talking about things that no one ever taught me, that it took me, 50 years to learn. Like, it took me 50 years to learn of being in unsuccessful relationships

Starting point is 01:15:21 that I could just say, like, because I have one mode. If I'm telling you about a problem I have, I want your help. If I say to you, I'm having this problem with my son. If I called Chris, I consider Chris a friend. If I called Chris and I said, Chris, I'm having this problem with one of my sons, X, Y, and Z, and he went, that must be really hard, Jim. I'd be. I'd be. I'd be like, yeah, no shit, Chris, that's why I called you. What should I do? Like, what do you think I should do? Whereas, and again, it took me 50 years to figure it out. A lot of times, the women in my life in particular just want me to hear them. They want me to hear them, not try to fix it. They interpret me explaining how they could fix it as belittling their emotional experience and not

Starting point is 01:16:11 giving credit to their problem-solving skills. Like, they just want me to go, oh, man, that sucks. Like, that's, she shouldn't have said that to you. That's really terrible, man, you didn't deserve that. And then I can see them go, thank you. Like, yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. Like, I didn't deserve it. And I'm like, no, you totally didn't deserve. That sucks. Like, but again, what would stop us in relationship from you come home and tell me something awful that happened to you today? some deal fell through something went wrong something went and i go okay here's the menu there's a whole menu i can listen to this and i can just be here and listen to what you're saying i can give you some suggestions of what i think you might want to do to like deal with that or solve it or whatever

Starting point is 01:17:03 we can go in the other room and take our clothes off and roll around and i'll take your mind off of it we can order a pizza and sit on the couch and watch that show that you wanted to watch and we'll just take our minds off of it. You can pick anything on that menu. And by the way, if it's not working, tell me, and we'll switch to another thing, right? Or if you want me to pick, I'll pick. I'll just start throwing stuff at it. And if something's not feeling good, tell me. And we'll switch to another thing. Why can't we do? Why is it that we're supposed to be experts at this? Like I'm 53. I've been in therapy for a good 20 years. And I understand about 50% of this guy. And I'm in here. Like I'm in here. And I get about 50% of this guy. And I get it wrong a lot of the time. Like what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking? Why am I feeling that? Why is that bothering me? Why is that? Like I'm supposed to figure you out perfectly. I'm not in there. Like I'm in here and I can't figure it out. So could we give each other a little grace? Could we give each other a menu? What would be wrong with just giving each other. other a menu. Isn't it lovely to have options? Like, why do we like the cheesecake factory? Because

Starting point is 01:18:12 I have no idea what I want to eat. And it's got 80 pages in the menu. And it's like, okay, I can have anything I wanted. And by the way, why do some people hate it? Because there's just too damn many choices. So great. I'll pick for you. And if it's wrong, okay, then choose something else. Like, let's, let's do this for each other. There's no reason not to. You've seen thousands of cases. You've been married before. Yeah. There's a 70% fail. rate to marriage. Well, roughly. It doesn't find failure. Yeah, if it's not happily married, but stay married, whatever.

Starting point is 01:18:44 But I know you're in partnership. Yeah. So, like, does marriage still work? Why do you go back to having a partner? I think love. I think love is, like, the question people most often ask me is being a divorce lawyer for 25 plus years, do you believe in love? Do you believe in romantic love?

Starting point is 01:19:07 And I have to tell you, it strikes me as the silliest question. It's like someone saying, do you believe in gravity? I don't have to believe in gravity. It's there. It exists all around me. Like love is really everything. It's the only thing that really matters to any of us. Like, I genuinely believe that.

Starting point is 01:19:28 All of these other things are just symbols of our desire to be loved and to be worthy of love. All of these accomplishments are just ways that we're trying to tell the world that we're worthy of love. Like, that's really all they are. Like, they really are just things we do so that someone we respect and care about says, I'm so proud of you. Like, what feels better than someone saying, Cody, you wrote this book? I'm so proud of you.

Starting point is 01:19:59 You have so much going on in your life and you found the time to do this thing and share it with the world. I'm so proud of you for that. You had so many reasons why you wouldn't get that done and you got it done. I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud to know you. Like, doesn't that just do something to your heart that you go like, thanks? Like, thank you. And that's a real sentiment.

Starting point is 01:20:22 That's a real thing. And by the way, it feels good to say it to someone I care about, to tell them I'm proud of them. Because I know how it feels when someone tells me they're proud of me. And I know how healing and wonderful and warm it feels. And I genuinely believe when I look back on my life, it's those moments of connection with another person, like, that I will remember. I like to look at relationships as chapters in a long book.

Starting point is 01:20:50 And a chapter ends and a new chapter begins. It doesn't mean that that chapter was a failure. Like, I was married and it ended. And she's been remarried for 15 years to a wonderful man who's absolutely nothing like me, except that we're both tall. Other than that, there's very little in common. And he's lovely. Like, he's lovely.

Starting point is 01:21:13 I got to hang out with him at my son's wedding for, like, half the day. We were doing the bow ties with the ushers and stuff. And it was like the greatest thing. And I loved her enough and I loved her and knew her long enough. That when I would hang out with this guy, I'm always like, oh, yeah, he's perfect for her. Like, he's perfect for her in all these ways that I'm. I just wasn't. Like, I love her, but there's so many people that I love but wouldn't want to be married to. Like, and I think that that's okay. Like, I think that my ex-wife would say,

Starting point is 01:21:46 Jim is a really great ex-husband. Like, I love him, but I would never want to be married to him. Like, and I don't blame her. Like, being married, like, being married is a skill set. And it's not a skill set for everybody. Like, and again, we just assume that people are supposed to get married. Like, if you say, I've made the decision to get married, it would be indelicate for a person to go, really, why? Why? I mean, by way, perfectly reasonable question. You're signing up for something with roughly a 70% failure rate. It's reasonable to go, really? Why are you doing that? Like, that doesn't seem like a very good idea. Like, you know, like, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you? Like, do you have? Like, do you have? You have a problem? And, you have a problem? Like,

Starting point is 01:22:30 have that problem? Will marriage actually solve that problem? Like, why are you doing this thing? You know? And it's, but instead, it's the opposite. I'm not, I'm thinking I'm not going to do the thing that fails like 70% of the time. People go, really? Why? Do you have intimacy issues? It's like, no, I might just be rational. I might just understand math and how it works. But again, like, is that an invitation to turning off your heart and turning off the potential for connection? Like, no, I think I look back on every single woman I've ever had a romantic relationship with. And there is a moment that when I think of it, I smile. And I think like, oh, that they made me a better person.

Starting point is 01:23:19 Like, I learned something about myself or about life or about love. from them. And I really, really, really hope that my ex-girlfriends and ex-wife think, you know, my life was a little better for Jim's presence in it and that, like, he gave me something of value. And I gave him something of, because I have to say, every woman I ever had a romantic relationship with, I got something of value from that relationship. And every single one of them, I know I never entered into that relationship with anything but good intentions. Like, I wanted to love. them well and I didn't. And it wasn't that I, you know, I just didn't care about them. It was just that I didn't have the tools. At that stage in life, at that moment, I didn't have the tools or I

Starting point is 01:24:07 wasn't the right fit for them. And it was never about wanting to hurt them or to fail them in some way. Like, I failed with good intentions. That's something that people fail all the time at. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be ashamed of that. Yeah. Also, God, how much better off would we all be if more of us said that? I think the scary reason why we don't say that is because we're afraid that the other person might say, no, she's a real cunt, you know? Just period, end of story. But instead, if you're like, well, you know, listen, everything doesn't end well.

Starting point is 01:24:39 And I don't have any expectations about what the other person might have felt. But I learned something from it. Well, and accept the possibility. Like, I remember, you know, my ex-wife and I now have been divorced 20 years. So it's a lot easier to talk about things from a distance. You know, when I talk about my mom's passing 10 years ago, it's a lot. softer to talk about now than it was, you know, eight years ago, what it was a fresh wound, right? So time is healing in some ways. But I remember like early in our divorce, we were, we were standing at like one of our

Starting point is 01:25:05 kids' track meets or something. And we were still, there was still some hurt between us. And she said something like, you know, Jim, like you were like, you just weren't there so much at the time. Like you just were just absent. Like you were just always thinking about work or always thinking I'll never love anyone the way you love the law. Like it was always this harsh mistress that was always in the room, you know? And she was like, you know, when I was a good wife to you, like I was really there. Like I wanted to love you and I wanted you to love me. And she was totally right.

Starting point is 01:25:37 But I remember I said to her, I was like, okay. Like let's accept that that's totally true. Like let's take it a step further. You were absolutely perfect in the marriage. It was entirely my fault. I completely was the one who screwed it up. You have no blame in this whatsoever. It was solely me.

Starting point is 01:25:59 Now what? Now what? We have two children together and our marriage is over. What would you let you want me to say I'm sorry? I've said it a thousand times. I'll say it as many more times as you'd like me to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all the things I got wrong and did wrong.

Starting point is 01:26:14 I know I didn't mean to hurt you. I know I did. And I'm profoundly sorry for it. I really am. I profoundly sorry for it. For my weakness as a human being, for my failings, for the things I get wrong. I'm so sorry. You deserve better than that.

Starting point is 01:26:28 I'm sorry. Now what? Now what? It's everyone's fault or it's no one's fault or it's all my fault or it's happier. Now what? What do we do? Like we're here. We have the tools we have.

Starting point is 01:26:43 We have the time we have. What are we going to do with it, guys? Are we going to go on the algorithm and talk about how much men suck and how much women suck and bring that in? energy into our next relationship? Or is it possible that we might be brave enough to be vulnerable and say, yeah, yeah, I'm human. I get some things wrong. I get some things right. You probably do too. Like, I want the people in my life to see all my weaknesses. I really do. It's just like my case. Just like when I present my case, I want to get ahead of it. I want the eight mile strategy.

Starting point is 01:27:18 Because here's the thing. If all I show you. you is how put together and phenomenal I am and I hide all the weak parts in me and all the vulnerable, stupid, silly, impatient, impetuous parts of me, all the shit I need to work on. If I hide all that, I will never feel your love. I'll never feel your love. You don't love me. You love the character I'm playing effectively. No, like, I want you to see all that stuff and go, oh, yeah, I see all that. But that doesn't define you. You're all of this. You have all these weaknesses, but they're wonderful. You're perfect, how imperfect you are. You're great. Like, that's how we want to be loved. That's how I want to be loved. And by the way, that's how I love the people I love.

Starting point is 01:27:58 Like, the people I love, like, you don't have to be perfect at all for me to love you. I love you more because you're not, like, I love you for your imperfections. I love all the things you get wrong and how you just keep trying. Like, I want that. I want that kind of love and I want to give that kind of love to another person. And I think if we could do more of that, we would all be a lot happier and I'd have to get a real job. James Sexton, so good. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I can't wait for the next book, which I hear rumblings maybe coming out.

Starting point is 01:28:29 In September of 2027, who knew that the publishing cycle takes a damn long? And where do you like people to follow the most? I personally like your Instagram. Instagram. That's really it. I don't do any of the other things really. I mean, I think I have a TikTok, but I don't have it on my phone. Like, I don't.

Starting point is 01:28:44 That seems very all adjusted. Post it like it for me like but I don't have anything to do with it. No, Instagram. Yeah. The Instagram is at NYC divorce lawyer and yeah, it's it's, that's really a place to find me. I, I, otherwise you just find me down at 60 Center Street in Manhattan in the courthouse, you know. Dude, that's still on my list. You got to come.

Starting point is 01:29:02 I got to come. Oh, it's the greatest show in town. The following this priming thing. Oh, I know we can't have a camera in there. It's my main problem. That's what I was like, if we, he's like, you cannot. That's kind of what makes it fun, though. It's like an experience that you have to just have in real life.

Starting point is 01:29:15 and then you don't get to, there's, we have increasingly fewer of those, like, things that aren't so documented. That's true. It's kind of fun to just exist in time. Yeah. And not document it. Plus, I just want to see how the judge interacts with you. The whole thing just seems.

Starting point is 01:29:29 You know, what's funny, it's changed a bit. Because some of the judges now are like, oh, who does this guy think he is? Oh, I bet. Because there's a lot of my adversaries just cannot. They're like, my blur man was like, do you know James Sexton? I'm like, oh, Christ, you know? Like, it's funny, too, because I'm now the world's most well-known divorce lawyer, for sure. I might be the world's most well-known lawyer.

Starting point is 01:29:53 I think that's probably true. But it's really funny because, you know, like, I'm, I have some colleagues that I think are way better at this than me. I don't know. But I think also you're one of the happiest attorneys I've ever met. I love it. That's the thing that I think so great's me. That's rare. Because I really love it.

Starting point is 01:30:09 Yeah, I love the work. Like, I mean, we have a shit ton of attorneys that we work with. But the by and large, they're super smart. Yeah. effective, not that multidimensional, and all of them, if I go, so would you have your kids fall on your footstep? They're like, oh, fuck. No. No. No.

Starting point is 01:30:23 I know. Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, it's so funny. I said to both of my sons, one of whom's a lawyer, but he doesn't do, he works for the court system. He's like the consigliary to a judge. He's like the hand of the king to a judge. He's what's called a court attorney. And I have to tell you, like, I said to both of them, like, don't go into law to impress me.

Starting point is 01:30:44 Yeah. Like go, like, find something you love as much as I love the law, like, and just go after it, whatever it looks like. Because that's the fun thing to see anyways in anybody, not to much of your kids. It's like I said about golf. Like, I like just being around anybody who's super excited about something, even if I don't get it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:30:59 Even if I don't, like, your excitement excites me. Like, if somebody's telling me like about, you know, like a book that they read that I have no desire to read, but they're so enthusiastic. I'm like, ooh, I'm in. Okay. Tell me all about it because your excitement excites me. I love the work. I really, it's why the funniest part for me is like I'll be on the subway coming back from

Starting point is 01:31:18 the court house and like people see me. They're like, oh my God. You're the divorce lawyer who's like all over the yeah? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, where are you coming from? I'm like the courthouse. And they're like, wait, you're still a lawyer? I'm like, yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:31 What did you think I just like do interviews and TikTok for a living? And they were like, yeah, that's what I thought. Like you write books and stuff. And I was like, no, this is just like the weirdest hobby. I get the same exact thing. I know you're an influencer now. I'm like, God, I wish. I wish that I only did this

Starting point is 01:31:44 How much many hours a week This would be sweet You know Just a professional yapper That's a profession You've added parenthood to it You know what I mean? Like throw that

Starting point is 01:31:53 Like you're gonna be like What are we doing with all this free time You know? Like I know let's throw a screaming infant You have to read your book So I don't get divorced And like obsessed with his kid I mean listen I don't Chris

Starting point is 01:32:03 Chris won't do better You know what I mean He's playing above the rim I've told him that I've told him that on a text thread I was like buddy You're playing above the rim You know you got a

Starting point is 01:32:11 You got a fast. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at PMCF Walk. dot CA.

BigDeal - Divorce Lawyer: The #1 Sign Your Marriage Will FAIL | James Sexton

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