Bigfoot Society - Dr. Jeff Meldrum: A Life Focused on the Truth!

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Original released as Episode 66 on 3/22/21.What happens when a respected anatomy professor stumbles upon a trail of 15-inch tracks in the remote forests of Washington? In this powerful re-release episode, we honor the life and legacy of Dr. Jeff Meldrum, a pioneering Bigfoot researcher who dared to ask questions academia was too afraid to touch. Originally recorded in 2021, this conversation includes a never-before-heard member-exclusive segment where Dr. Meldrum reveals strange personal experiences, including a ghostly encounter in Wyoming and a mysterious night under the stars in Utah. From Bluff Creek to Idaho State, this episode covers Meldrum’s pivotal contributions to Sasquatch research, his love for Star Trek, and the moment that changed his life forever. Whether you’re a seasoned cryptid hunter or a skeptic, this episode will challenge what you thought you knew.Online Scientific Journal - The Relict Hominid InquiryDr. Meldrum's FacebookResources mentioned (affiliate links) By Dr. Meldrum:Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science (book)(https://amzn.to/3s8Bi2o)Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science (DVD) (https://amzn.to/3lyMJOq)Sasquatch Field Guide (https://amzn.to/3tErNs4)Sasquatch, Yeti and other Wildmen of the World (https://amzn.to/3c8g4vU)Recommended by Dr. Meldrum:Abominable Snowman: Legend Come to Life (https://amzn.to/3eDfTdC)Do Abominable Snowmen of America Really Exist? (https://amzn.to/3feDLF1)On the Track of the Sasquatch (https://amzn.to/3rchnOx)Beginner Bigfoot Researcher Books recommended by Dr. Meldrum:North America's Great Ape (https://amzn.to/3s8lMmV)Know the Sasquatch/Bigfoot (https://amzn.to/3r6apuz)Raincoast Sasquatch (https://amzn.to/3qNitQC)Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us (https://amzn.to/314Upyw)Big Foot-Prints(https://amzn.to/3eYvkgR) ——Affiliate links mean I earn a commission from qualifying purchases. This helps support my channel at no additional cost to you.🗣️ Share Your StoryHad a Bigfoot encounter or strange experience?Send it to [e-mail] – your story might be featured on the show!🎥 Watch & Subscribe on YouTube🔴 Subscribe here → Bigfoot Society YouTube💬 Leave a comment & let us know your thoughts!📞 Leave a voicemail with your story → Speakpipe (Use multiple voicemails if needed)👥 Share this episode → Watch & Share🎧 More episodes → Podcast Playlist🌲 Recommended: New Jersey Bigfoot Encounters💥 Support the Show & Get Perks✅ Join the community on Supercast – Become a Member✅ Listen ad-free & early on YouTube – Join Here📱 Let’s ConnectInstagram: @bigfootsocietyTwitter: @bigfoot_societyTikTok: @bigfoot.society🧰 Tools & Partners I Use (Affiliate Links)These help support the show at no extra cost to you:Beam (Better Sleep): Try BeamWildgrain (Better Bread): Join HereSeed (Probiotics): Get SeedMedi-Share (Healthcare): Learn MoreLMNT (Electrolytes) Free Sample Pack with your first purchase! : Get LMNTOrganic and non-GMO groceries delivered for lesshttp://thrv.me/uarEhS🎙️ Podcasting Tools:Repurpose.io: Try ItDescript: Sign UpStreamyard: Start RecordingRiverside.fm: Try Riverside🎧 My Audio Interface: View on Amazon☕ Buy Me a Coffee – Support Here🛍️ Grab Some Merch – Shop on Etsy📬 Mailing Address:Bigfoot Society125 E 1st St. #233Earlham, IA 50072📧 Business Inquiries:[e-mail]

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Lowe's, we help, you save. Valid through 527. Wall Supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for details. Visit your nearby lows on West Pico Boulevard in Los Angeles. You're listening to Bigfoot Society and I'm Jeremiah Byron. In this show, we go beyond the campfire stories to bring you first-hand encounters from people who say they've seen something impossible.

From backwoods trails and remote mountain haulers to quiet farms and crowded highways. The stories come from every... everywhere and each one leaves us with more questions than answers. These are the voices of the people who've lived it. So settle in because today you'll hear another account that just might change the way you see the woods forever. So stay with us. The following episode is a re-release of an interview that I did with Dr. Meldrum in 2021. Dr. Meldrum is an individual that will never be matched in this community.

his love for people in spreading knowledge of the subject and his patience is unmatched. We unfortunately lost Dr. Meldrum too soon, much too soon. His last date with us was September 10th, 2025. If you've heard this interview, you still will want to listen as the last part of it was a member's only section that many people, people never got to hear, especially back in 2021. In that, I asked Dr. Maldrum some questions. He really was not used to answering, and he shares about some events of high strangeness that happened throughout his life.

I hope you'll enjoy and that you will fondly remember the memories we have of Dr. Meldrum, and hopefully through those memories will be inspired. yourself to teach this knowledge to the next generation that's coming up and to be patient towards those that maybe don't have as much info as you quite yet. And together, maybe if we work together, we can get further in this subject. Enjoy. All right. Thanks for coming back to the Bigfoot Society podcast.

I have the privilege of having Dr. Jeff Meldrum with me today. So thank you so much for agreeing to come on, Dr. We're going to start out by reading through his bio from Idaho State just so that everyone knows exactly what we are in for here. Dr. Jeff Meldrum is a full professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University since 1993. He teaches human anatomy in the graduate health professions programs. His research encompasses questions of vertebrate evolutionary morphology generally primate locomotive. motor adaptions more particularly and especially the emergence of modern human bipedalism. His co-edited volume from biped to strider, the emergence of modern human walking, running, and resource transport proposes a more recent innovation of modern striding gait than previously assumed.

His interest in the footprints attributed to Sasquatch was piqued when he examined a set of 15-inch tracks in Washington in 1996. Now his lab house is well over 300 cast attributed to this mystery primate. He conducts collaborative laboratory and field research throughout North America and the world, such as China and Russia, and has spoken about his findings in numerous popular and professional publications, interviews, television, and radio appearances, public and professional presentations. He's author of things such as Sasquatch legend meets science, which explores his and. and other scientists of evaluations of the contemporary evidence and also affords difference to tribal people's traditional knowledge of the subject. He also has published two field guides, one focusing on Sasquatch, the second casting the net more broadly to consider the potential of relict hominoids around the world. And he's also editor-in-chief of the scholarly journal, The Relict Hominoid Inquiry. that's a lot that's a lot it's probably the longest bio we've ever had but yeah you should have

edited a little bit but that's yeah so we could jump in our points there yeah what's your what's your favorite part what are you most proud of in that bio oh gee haven't been asked that that's a new question that's hard i'm terrible with favorites a favorite because there are pros and cons to every aspect of that there. I'm the type of person who's a generalist, maybe more so than a singular specialist. When I put my mind to something really go all out into it and deeply into it, I don't mean to say that, but I'm the type that likes to follow where my curiosity and where opportunities present themselves rather than force the circumstances to some preconceived program. And I've been criticized and, I've been criticized and,

complimented for that quality as an academic and as a person. But I think that I have pointed out some interesting aspects of the evolution of hominid bipedilism, some that have gone unacknowledged or unrecognized. Finally, after beating a drum for 10 or 15 years, you see people acknowledging and citing and recognizing that maybe they don't come out and say it. But implicitly, maybe Meldram was right after all. With Bigfoot holding the door. a jar. If someone like me had not stepped into the lane and grabbed that baton from Grover Krantz, I'm afraid the door would have really resoundingly slammed shut as far as the academic community went. So if I'm a voice of even the lone voice in the wilderness,

I should point out too now that I said that that may be just a matter of perception. There's a lot of interaction I have with my colleagues and other academics, both here in the state and around the world, who behind the scenes have a deep-seated interest and curiosity about this question. But they're just not in a position either because of their professional discipline or their research to pursue it, nor are they at liberty to pursue it openly. these gray-haired retired types like I'm getting very close to, who suddenly take on an apparent interest in Sasquatch. It's been there all the time. I haven't been at liberty to discuss it openly in their academic circles. Yeah, I'll tell you, it's extremely hard to interview scientists about Bigfoot. I have a thing where I try, and I would say for every, you get one yes for every 15 knows, because did people?

people, they want to keep their job, to be honest. Sure. Oh, sure. Absolutely. And yeah, it can have a very chilling impact. And especially for young academics, I sense a thawing of the attitude. There are more, more nods to the of relic hominoids. I can use the term and discuss with my colleagues the prospect of persistent species of

hominin or ape under the auspices of relic hominoid. But as soon as the word Sasquatch, or especially Bigfoot, comes to the four. Just shuts down. Yeah. Don't talk about that. Exactly. So it's, but still, there's about, we're about a generation, not a generation, about a decade away, I estimate for that generational shift.

I'm getting more and more interaction with young academics, just getting their PhDs. and landing positions and so forth, who on the slide acknowledged that they are very interested or I keep in touch with me. You got to keep it until you have security. And that's one of the reasons for tenure is to protect you with some academic freedom that there isn't unjustified repercussion

for pursuing a topic or a question which is not perceived by the consensus as acceptable. It's just interesting. I just served on a subcommittee for our faculty senate to re-evaluate and rewrite our academic freedom policy on campus. Really? Yeah, the committee member or the committee chair specifically asked me because of some of the experiences I've had on campus. And it was interesting because there was a point where one of the members, and I don't think it was an intentional, I don't think she really realized the implication of the verbiage she had lifted from another document in corporate. into her summary statement, but it made the statement to the sense that that faculty had the

responsibility, because we had the responsibility of it for academic freedom statement, faculty had the responsibility to convey content in their courses that was generally accepted by their discipline. Oh, wow. Crazy. Yeah, I said that's just what we're talking about. Man. This isn't a progress in knowledge through consent, not a democracy. A very lively conversation about that. And she quickly acknowledged and recognized she just hadn't really read it that way. And she sought from what she was perceived as being the other way that you have some then control over wild hairs on the fact that don't get off in the weeds.

But hey, even that sometimes is a stimulating circumstance to have students engage in. conversations, even about topics that are a little bit out there. But anyway, it's an interesting dimension, which certainly has impact on the way that this topic is perceived by the, as Dr. Krantz would say, the scientific establishment. Fascinating. Fascinating. Do you mind, as my email said, do you mind if we talk about Star Trek for a bit? So I've heard this from multiple, a few people, and they're like, you got to talk to Dr. Melchum about Star Trek. I was like, he's a big Star Trek guy? And they're like, yeah, totally. And I'm like, hey, if he's up for it, that would be cool. And everyone listening to this is, are you kidding me? But it's okay. We'll get to the Bigfoot stuff in a little bit. Just settle down. So what is Star Trek? Like, how do you define? What is this Star Trek thing?

What is it for me? What is it to you? Yeah. In general. Oh, I grew up. It was who didn't. of our generation. That was the vehicle to get beyond the horizon to imagine what it would be like. Explore strange new worlds to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go. I can remember racing home because they were doing the reruns in the afternoon, right? About 3.30, it was like 3.30 to 4.3 or 3 or 4 to 5 before the news. And I remember racing home before we went out to play during that stretch, we would watch Tartre. my brother and I would watch Star Trek. So sure, and I've got my remastered original set on DVD.

And I remember at a conference at dinner afterward, the conversation turned to just what was the basis of life. What was the boundary between them and the chemical basis? And I made some off-the-cuff remark about the horta. And someone said, do you know what the horta is? I'm guessing that's a big Star Trek reference. I know. And so they stand up and said, hey, everybody, Dr. Belder knows what a Florida is.

That's amazing. So anyway, yeah. I love that. But I think as I mentioned to you, I was invited to here at Salt Lake City. They had their first Comic-Con. Exactly. And I was invited to give a talk. And so I tried to play to the audience a little bit.

And how could I, how could I, how could I? I fold that in so that a cryptid had a little more solid position. And it didn't take much. The connections could also satisfy not only Star Trek but Star Wars. So I had a remake of the cover of my book. Instead of those Sasquatch eyes, I had a cut out to. Oh, you had LaForge. No, I had a cropped image of Chewbacca's face.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, totally. Spocker prints instead of Sasquatch. Oh, my goodness. And of course, my topic, the theme, the whole Star Trek theme was to seek out new life and still our corners of our globe that are unexplored or that need further exploration. And new forms of life are being discovered both on land and in the sea. And there's some parallel themes that zoology.

So it was fun. It was well received by the audience. That's awesome. What is your favorite? So there's, of course, different series of Star Trek. Is there a favorite one that stands out to you? Oh, I've got to be, I'm dedicated mostly to the original series. Although Star Trek Enterprise was, I really liked the way they did that.

I had a hard time with the next generation, the first season. Really? I couldn't watch it. I still watch episodes from the first season. It took them a while for those characters to mature and get rid of a few that didn't belong on the bridge, their behavior and personality and emotional profiles. but there were some that were really quite good. I'm not a cable TV person,

so I've only seen a little bit of the Star Trek Discovery series. And again, it just, it's always risky. When you were weaned off of the original, then you can never get away entirely from comparing to those relationships. And so there's always a little bit of disappointment sometimes. Wow. It's so funny when you think about it, when you set aside the special effects and the spaceship and that,

it's still, the plots all boil down to just human relationships. It's all drama. And every once in a while, there's some interesting twist. I was like the time travel paradoxes and things like that. I was just going to ask, do you have a favorite scene?

Favorite scene. Actually, one of the most poignant where I think they really reached in deep into the emotional response. is the episode where in Star Trek Next Generation, I think it was actually a two-part, where they encountered the probe, which connected with Picard.

Oh, the Borg, right? Pardon? The Borg, right? No, no, not the Borg. Okay. It was a probe sent out from a civilization that was about to succumb to their stop. Oh, snap. Okay.

And he learned, that's where he learned to play the recorder. Oh, you remember. And then after this, he literally lived vicariously, in a second lifetime. This experience, then when they brought the probe on board and opened it up, here was a little case that had that recorder in it. And can you imagine what it would be like to live too live, to live an entire life and close it out?

Yeah. And then suddenly wake up and realize you still have your own life to finish out. That'd be crazy. I just thought that was really quite an interesting poignant ending as he retired back to his ready room with that recorder and reflected on that whole lifetime of experience that he'd had. Plan B made over-the-counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago. It's a safe, effective backup birth control option that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts

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Skinny Pop, popular for a reason. In a very vivid dream, it states that, anyway, there's all kinds of things like that that are interesting. Oh, yeah. I always like the scene in Star Trek 6 where it's like the president's about to get shot and they're like, oh, save the president. And they all rush inside and just at the last minute. Her jumps on them. Yeah, that's a process.

Yeah. So how do you make the, can you teach me, how do you make the Vulcan salute? Do you have a? How do I make it? I mean, just, you know, I like this. Naturally, it's right. Nice. That's nice.

Yeah. I often end my emails with that now after we started the, that's awesome. That's awesome. Live long and prosper was a good wish in these times of uncertainties. Oh, that's true. That's true. Greg from the Patreon So he's going to

call you out specifically where he asks if you had to choose Kirk or Picard who are you going to choose? Yeah. Yeah. Like I said,

Picard really matured into his role, but I still would have to go with Kirk. I'm a purist. Okay. So it's just to be Kirk makes sense.

Although I think I think more often than not I relate more to the spot character. But I was, we had a pair a couple of a guy, a friend of mine that I always seemed to hang out with. And he was a little more bombastic than I was. I was a little more intellectual, a little more reserved. Sure. He was a

bombastic. He was a few inches shorter than me. So he struck me, it struck me even then that we looked like Kirk and Spock. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So not that anyone ever called us that, but that would be. All right. Are you ready to get into some crazy bigfoot questions? Oh, sure. You're ready for whatever it could be. All right. The first one is so my buddy Jonathan, you actually had shared a photo from him on Facebook like a few days ago. But you got to look into this. It was the, it's a photo where it's like a gorilla next to Patty. And can Dr. Meldrum comment on Patty's right thigh, possible herniation, a difference in hair. What do you think? Right. There was, there's always been. spend some attention drawn to some of the irregularities in the surface of the apparent irregularities in the surface of the skin. And the explanations have varied from the interesting possibilities to the ludicrous, but it's a pocket in a pair of waiters. And Hieronymus didn't take his car keys out of his pocket, and that's what's bulgin. That's Bob Hieronymus, not Tate Hieronymus for everyone.

We'll clear that up. There you go. And of course, it was actually Doug High I check who drew attention to what he thought could be a herniation. And I started doing a little looking into that and being an anatomist and discovered that indeed there is this condition where the fascia latter, in the lower extremity especially, the deep fascia that encompasses the muscle compartments is much thicker. It's stouter. It's a, it's an adaptation to assist with creating intra-compartmental pressure to help milk the venous blood, which is under low pressure, upstream against gravity to this heart that's way up there. It has to go up three or four feet. Yeah, true.

Calm. That's why we have the one-way venal in our veins. That thick, connective tissue sheet, it's like support hose, but under the fat layer, sometimes can break down through disease. tuberculosis can cause damage to connective tissue or through a traumatic injury, a penetrating wound. And this was the funny thing. I used to, we had a lecture in my physical therapy and occupational therapy gross anatomy course. And at the very end, we used to have a lecture where we would spend a part of the class reviewing. And then usually that would taper off. And I would then use the Patterson Gimlet film as a way to get them.

to think about surface anatomy and muscle groups and so forth. And actually, it relates to GATE. And so I would show this very high-quality clip that was produced from the color channel separation scanned images, which lent tremendous clarity to the result. And then M.K. Davis had strung those individual frames together and stabilized them and played them, set them at the proper film speed, about 16 to 18 frames for second. And so it's just summarizing to watch this loop. And I would project this up on the screen so that it's not full size, but it's pretty big.

And you could watch the details, remarkable details. And I pointed out this quadriceps herniation. And this student raises her hand. Oh, she said, I have that. I said, what? She said, yeah, I was years ago, I was bucked off the horse. And we were out in the brush and I was buckled. And landed in a brush pile and had this big stab wound in my thigh and the fasciata never quite yield properly.

And she happened to be wearing gym shorts because we go into the lab and they wear their scrubs over their clothes. And so sometimes they wear athletic wear just they don't want their nice clothes in there in the wet lab. But so she could demonstrate. She just, she simply flexed her quads when she was walking. She took a step forward like lunge and boom, this. golf ball-sized bulge, half-golf ball, pops up under the skin on her thigh. No way.

Slips right back in. Just exactly what's on the film. Oh, wow. In addition to that one singular bulge, there are other sort of irregularities that people have rationalized must-mead just a poor job at packing the padding under the block of the costume. It's interesting because a lot of the lines and dimples and bumps, that you see are at fine you can easily find correlates in human examples and this is the paper

that I've often referred to. Bill Munson did a paper on the skin and adipose tissue as inferred from the Anderson Gimlin film and and Bill had gone through and called a number of pictures of just regular pictures, a regular people rather, not models, but middle age to operate people that he actually gleaned from websites for naturessts. Oh, wow. Locations, camps where people were walking around Alfresco. And when there wasn't a lot of toned bodies and life was sucked and et cetera, you could see the normal wrinkles and dimples and grooves and so forth,

muscle groups and fatty areas and fascia. And the congruence is just remarkable. Then I went through and cold through just images on the web of great apes, of chimpanzees and gorillas particularly, and showed similar patterns of the way the skin hangs on the back in a bilaterally symmetrical way. And Bill had shown that similar folds on a furcloth suit, if it's just like a pajama top, when there is a fold, it will often run all the way across the midline to the other side, not have that draped, look where it's tacked down the sphinis processes of the spine. And so that was quite, I was quite intrigued when someone posted that image with the red circle because it showed some irregularities in the fatty tissue or whether they were lipomas, fatty tumors, or whether they were just, just the natural appearance of a little excess

adipose tissue on a gorilla in captivity. in the wild they often don't have the excess food available that they can become obese. The great aches in captivity can become obese through their sedentary lifestyle and overeating, and they lay down fat, subcue fat, just in the same pattern that humans do. Oh, that is fascinating. Yeah. It's just that you don't often see it in the wild. Wow.

Just as you don't often see obesity in a gatherer society. case or more premium. It's important, I think, to not be, not have on the basis of a snap judgment say, oh, that's fake, but say, what could explain these different appearing aspects? And when you consider them in concert with everything else, and there is an explanation that is absolutely biologically sound and appropriate, to me, that's the more parsimonious, explanation than to concoct some scheme of somebody having created a costume and incorporated compel into experts in the field.

Oh, man. That's an interesting answer. Thank you. Thank you to Jonathan Easley from Western Bigfoot Exploration on Instagram for sending that in. Next up, this one gets really intense. So, yeah, get ready. So Josh, my buddy Josh, you is from the Patreon. This is his question.

If multiple DNA samples collected from an area were to be matched to one another to exclude the possibility of contamination, present genetic markers that belong to the hominid line, and contain a clearly identifiable MDNA profile of a species and the homogeneous, would that be sufficient proof to genetically establish and. an igno-species of the homogenes. Oh, okay. Oh, that's an easier question, I guess, to answer them. I thought he was going to get it some interpretation. It's a lot easier for you to answer it than for me to read it.

Yeah, when he mentioned the mitochondrial. Ah, okay, okay. Like he was affiliating the mitochondrial genome to a human, a homo sapiens, which is part of the argument that Melba Ketchum and her adherents have proposed as evidence for hybridization to account for the origin of Sasquatch. And let me just say that I find no merit in those arguments or no credibility. But boiling it down to the question is if we, just to say it in shorthand, if we found a novel non-human primate genome on the North American continent,

would that be sufficient? That is a question that is open still. there is no precedent that I'm aware of acknowledging an entirely novel species on the basis of DNA alone. Now, DNA has been used to maybe segregate closely related species, say, from museum specimens where someone notices some consistent distinctions between two populations. And then so they go ahead and take a little snip off of the pelt of some of those museum specimens and test them. And sure enough, there's they discover that. by their standards or criteria, there's sufficient differentiation to call them different species or

different subspecies or whatever. There's a precedent for that. But those specimens exist. The physical specimens are in museum drawers already. So that's different. But there's a growing body of literature and discussion in the professional literature about the notion of acknowledging a novel species on the basis of a novel DNA sequence, especially as it pertains in conservation situations to rare and endangered species. And even more especially, as it applies to species that have long lifespans and social structures that the taking of a live specimen may have a significant impact on the dynamics, on the social dynamics of that group and its survivability. Bigfoot might be a interesting and interesting test case of that proposal on the basis of DNA alone.

But I tell you, there's just so much controversy surrounding this topic at this point. My gut reaction, my suspicion would be that short of a physical specimen and a very significant specimen, either a corpse or a skull that that acknowledgement won't be forthcoming without that conclusive piece of physical evidence. It actually, that leads quite perfectly into the next one, which you can probably guess what it is. Greg from a Patreon Order 66 Star Wars podcast says, so what would you do if you came across the mortally wounded Sasquatch? A mortally wounded. That's a tough. That's a tough question.

Well, I'd probably sit down. If I was in a position to render assistance, I would perhaps to try that. But when you're dealing with any animal, especially one that's potentially 8 feet, 1,200 pounds, and it's wounded, not in the food. Under any circumstances, I think one would have to be very cautious. Yeah.

But I wouldn't go home. I would wait until such time as maybe the possibility of collecting the investment if it was mortally. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. It presents itself. But yeah, no, I'd stay.

These people who turn tail and run home after an encounter, I have to wonder, I can appreciate the impact that it has on people, especially when you're alone. There's a different mentality when you're alone. That's interesting. Yeah. That's a tough call. I think it definitely comes down to how you view what Bigfoot actually is.

Personally, I'm looking at it as it is. it is an unknown great ape in North America, but there's many different ways to look at that. Right. Yeah, sure. Yeah. If that was what they were after to make that distinct. That's a whole different conversation. Totally. Let me just say, because so many viewers, they pigeonhole me. Sure. And the label, or not the label, but the assertion that I think it's, and I put this in quotes or emphasis, I should underline, just a great aim. First of all, anyone who uses that expression has no appreciation for the nature of great

aid. I have spent time, not in the wild, but under circumstances where I could interact to a great deal and closely interact with great apes and fully appreciate what a magnificent animal they are. I mean, all of them, you can have some of those same experiences with your dog or your cat or your true. Cockatoo, we have long as a society underestimated, I think, the intelligence and the gents, if you want to use that word, the consciousness of animals. But I've never pigeonhole. Yes, I've used the term North American Great Ape and so forth. But as others have pointed out, while we don't really consider ourselves great apes, we are hominoids.

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just say to yourself, this is a job for Indeed's sponsored jobs. You'll get matched with candidates that meet the skills, certifications, and everything else you're looking for. Or go a different way and get no traction. Seriously, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. It really is a no-brainer. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

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When it comes to snacking, Skinny Pop just makes sense. Deliciously popped, perfectly salted. Skinny Pop, popular for a reason. That's why I like the word relic hominoid. The term hominoid, it has two references. When Porchnev coined the term, he used the term hominoid in the vernacular, meaning manlike. But in a more precise taxonomic sense, it means a member of the super family hominoidia, which includes us and all of the apes, from the lesser to the great, the gibbon and siamong and orang chimp's

and gorillas and ourselves. We're part of that super family. We're split off separately in the hominony in a tribe. We even share the same family on Mennidae with the African AIDS. We're in the same family. And it's splitting hairs. It's quibbling over something, getting the horse before the cart before the horse. We can discuss what it is after we've proved that it exists.

There you go. Yep. Fill it to do it beforehand. But, you know, what I'm suggesting. suggesting is that the difference is just one side of the fence. It's not a long ways away from the fence. If it is on the homin inside, it's a very early offshoot like a peranthropist, a robust artisan or something like that, something that predated a consistent, sophisticated stone tool culture that we can recognize in the archaeological record of significant brain size. And that, even that, has been quibbled in the history of anthropology for a long time. What was the cutoff for humanity? And Arthur 100 years ago put it at 750 Cc's. The robust Australopithecines come in there at just about 50 cc bigger than a chimp or gorilla at about 550.

So it's a couple hundred shy. And even when we start talking about absolute volume like that, there's differences. There's differences that don't necessarily mean anything about intelligence because they just have to do with relative body size. Sure. Pygmies in Africa have a different cranial capacity than somebody's six-foot-six American football players. Let's see. Maybe not. No, I'm just kidding. That's a whole different episode right there, but I get what you're saying. So there is actually a, there's a rift in the crypto zoology community about you. So I need you to pick aside. So there is one camp that is mustache, Dr. Meldrum, and there's one camp that is beard Dr. Meldrum.

Which side you think is right? That must be newbies watching reruns there. It is. It's Monster Quest, Dr. Meldrum, isn't it? Yeah. I'm afraid if, boy, if I wouldn't recognize myself, I'd be looking at the YouTube videos where the dad cuts off his beard and drops the towel and the baby starts crying. If I saw myself in the mirror, I might start crying.

My chin, it would have, it would have looked like either my chin has melted into my neck or I may discover that I've actually got a couple extra chins that I've got really said. There you go. There you go. Yeah. You and me both. Yeah. The one that I don't care for, though, I probably shouldn't even say it, but is the occasion suggestion that the dark mustache, I've been called, it looks like a cop's mustache, which I don't mind so much. But I've also been, it's been suggested that I looked like a particular porn star with that dark. I wouldn't know. I don't know where. We can leave that one.

I'm speechless. Yeah. In the dustbin. Wow. Cool. You never know what people are going to bring up, right? That's right. You never know.

What is, what's the one thing you wish you had known when you started your career? Oh, gee. Yeah, that's a tough one. I don't, as I look back, people often ask me if I would, if I had it to do over, would I do this? And I mean, I remember that there was literally that, that fork in the road. And it happened when I was kneeling down. down looking at these 15-inch tracks in the mud there outside of all of Washington in 96. And I just come from Dr. Krantz's office.

This interest began as a youthful interest had become quite latent. And it was only because of a series of circumstances that it had risen to the surface again. And I was involved in a documentary to evaluate a piece. of video footage, which I had taken on as just a fun exercise, like a little Sherlock Holmes sleuthing the clues to, and I thought it'd be straightforward to point out the zipper. And it wasn't. And that got the wheels turning again. And I had just visited, I went up with my brother to visit Grover Krantz. So I was very keenly aware of Dr. Kroft's career and the impact that his interest in this subject had all that. And he was admittedly a bit of a maverick and a bit of a,

out there thinker on several things, many of which, likewise, proved to be quite prescient, some of his outlandish ideas, not all of them, but you throw enough spitballs against the wall. Sounds good stick, yeah, yeah. But I can remember having that moment of introspection as I'm kneeling there looking at this and thinking, what do we do here? Do we go down this road? And I've often described it was almost like the little cartoon imp on each shoulder. Oh, yeah, yeah, yep.

You're sure you want to do this? This is. And the other one saying, how could you not? How could you? It wasn't really a devil and angel. It was just the two alternate realities. Exactly. From this right now.

And of course, that one won out. How could I walk? I'm a scientist. In my estimation is the most compelling evidence I've ever considered on the subject. And there were no ifs, or buts really about it. There was no ambiguity. Let's put it that way.

There was no middle ground. It either was hoaxed or it wasn't. And I think I have enough wherewithal and savvy and experience when it comes to interpreting footprints, given that's what I've spent an awful lot of time. I'm sure. So here we are. Wow. Fascinating. What are the best resources that have helped you along?

I guess you could call it your Bigfoot journey through your career. Yeah, let's see. You certainly can't do what I was able to do without funding. I didn't even think of that, yeah. The prospect of attracting extramural funding for this kind of a project. And so I do owe a debt of gratitude. There was a philanthropist who an interested person and who gave a very generous award that helped myself and working at that time very closely with and consistently with John

Maynzynski, a wildlife biologist in Wyoming. And so it funded our research efforts to its significant degree for quite some time. We were able to get night vision monoculars, the camry equipment, and just the logistical things that allowed us to spend long periods of time out in the field. So I had the opportunity to every summer to spend at least a month, sometimes a whole month in one place, researching and doing that. So that was an important part. The other is just, I guess, well, that's hard to call. Some people in the past, I think, have made the mistake of being entirely reactionary. And that is, they wait by the phone until someone reports a site. Yeah. Race out and chase it down. And that's, that, that is a strategy. I shouldn't be critical

of that. But I think it was important. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to get out and do proactive research, to look for things, find them myself. And we had some successes. There have been opportunities to find footprints in the field on several different occasions. I've heard vocalizations. I've had things visit or can't on stuff like that. It's tense. And so we've had those minor successes, but just not the, not the real brass ring. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Can you think of maybe a particular book that was very influential in as you were coming up through the years that you really relied on? Oh, yeah. The first book I ever asked for as a Christmas gift from Santa. Yeah. It was Ivan Sanderson's of almost snowman legend come to life. And I devoured that. I read that

multiple times as a kid. And it was a pretty young kid. I was probably sixth grade when I got it. Oh, wow. I read that through. That's how I learned geography and was fascinated with maps and plotting things and understanding the terrain where the habitat for these ABSMs, as he referred to them as acronym for a vulnerable snowman. And so it was, that certainly had probably significant influence. And then shortly on the heels right about the same time, I guess, because it would have been just before that, I got Roger Patterson's book. I had attended the showing of the film in Spokane.

in 68. Wow, really? Right. Oh, man. Then the third one, I think, was the, those first three were really the significant ones, was John Green's on the track of the Sasquatch. Because it turned out that my librarian at my elementary school was John Green's niece. And she had spent a new copy of his book that he had just sent down to her when I was doing

report on Sasquatch as a sixth grade. while we did our unit on primates. And she had his book and a whole filing, clippings file with newspaper and magazine articles that she had accumulated because of her interest, her family's interest, or her uncle's interest in the... Wow.

So those three, I think, were the three. And I still have those. I still have those. Oh, you still have the original copies? Oh, that's so cool. That is so cool. Wow. Very cool.

I can't imagine like the synchronicity or the like you being related. Yeah. That's weird, man. I know. It's crazy. In hindsight, in hindsight, when I say for anybody who ends up somewhere, hindsight, it seems that the stars align. If you step back and you think about the circumstances that dictate which forks in the road you select,

it really is pretty amazing. And yeah, it's some of them. the circumstances and coincidences that happened are really uncanny. It's been an interesting ride no matter with what the outcome. Oh, yeah. Totally. I always tell people that not to expect to go out on a weekend and solve and that you need to cultivate an enjoyment of the process. That is just as much an important part. That's why I get a little disappointed. We were actually discussing the possibility of doing something on television and how could it be done differently. And one of the conversations I was having with the producer was,

the people who were watching, the real loyal audience, they're interested in the process. It's a big joke that finding it could after what, 12 seasons hasn't found Bigfoot. That's fine. But if you followed them, you got to visit all of these different places. I was here this morning actually was watching. some old episodes that I had not seen.

As I said, I'm not a cable guy, but since we've got our fire stick plugged in and we subscribe to a couple of stations, I can catch up a bit. And when they do that, when they actually show you the process, it's interesting. It's disappointing when they gloss over the process. It was one episode, and I won't mention who's doing what, but they were in a cave. And there were actually bones. They were deer bones, probably. But they just, oh, yeah, dear bones.

And they walked on. That's the whole reason to be in the cave. is to look for remains. That's where, again, epithicus teeth were found when a porcupine carried a jaw into a limestone cave, chewed it up, and the bits got fossilized in the limestone, the alkaline environment. So that's what, it's the process. They did bring in Cedar, and they were mapping the inside the cave. And that was quite interesting.

But it's always superficial. They always flash these images that don't really convey anything except the impression of what was done. And I was trying to impress the producer that you need to do something that's more of a documentary style rather than this sensational where you build up to the commercial break. Right. Oh, man. Attention is the only thing that you're after for ratings. I said, the ratings will follow.

The ratings will follow if you give them meat on the bones. True. True. Yeah, you'll have to, they did a new special. There's actually a new finding Bigfoot special on the sky. You'll have to check it out. It's pretty cool. The expedition Bigfoot?

No, Finding Bigfoot came back for special. Oh, oh, I see. On Discovery Plus, yeah. It's pretty cool. They go to West Virginia and stuff. Oh, all right. Okay. What observations do you remember from seeing the film in 68 at that presentation?

Yeah, when I reflect back. Yeah. It's interesting what you remember and what you don't remember. Not long. Right. Exactly. They get impression even more than they make a memory. Have flashes of the visual.

visual. Of course, when the patty, if we can call it that, goes walking across the screen larger than life, we were in that call of that gigantic projection screen and I and my father and I and my brother were on the third row and so it was

larger than life walking across that and then it started in the close ups and it was just amazing. There were just bits and pieces that made impressions, but it was always that was the main impact. Plan B, made over-the-counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago.

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All right, quick quiz for the hiring managers out there. What's worse? Being understaffed or being poorly staffed? Well, that's a trick question, because both are recipes for chaos. Either way, just say to yourself, this is a job for Indeed's sponsored jobs. You'll get matched with candidates that meet the skills, certifications, and everything else you're looking for. Or go a different way and get no traction. Seriously, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to roll.

report a higher than non-sponsored jobs. It really is a no-brainer. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed's sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to indeed.com slash podcast right now. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for indeed sponsored jobs. No matter the occasion, snack time should be easy. That's why Skinny Popcorn keeps it light, airy and endlessly delicious. Skinny Pop is made from just three simple ingredients,

delivering an irresistible taste without being complicated. Skinny Pop simplicity allows you to freely enjoy as much popcorn as you want. Just open the bag and enjoy. No overthinking, no tough choices. When it comes to snacking, Skinny Pop just makes sense. Deliciously Popped, perfectly salted. Skinny Pop, popular for a reason. Mike Rugg had come upon a copy of the theatrical release of that film, that documentary, the showcase. And he showed it at one of his conferences that I spoke at. It was interesting because I didn't, it was like, in some ways, it was like seeing it anew because,

although that had such an impact on me, I was only 10 at the time. and there were a lot of parts of it that I didn't remember at all. Interesting. That's interesting. But it was mostly that film clip. That was the... That's awesome. Yeah.

What have been the... What would you say the top three people that have been influential to you over the years are? Oh, yeah. Let's see. The list could have been longer. I had some unfortunate interaction with a few people that were... Uh-oh. extremely disappointing.

We'll be positive. But yeah, we'll go, stay with the positive ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just saying that sometimes people don't realize the impact that they're having on someone. That's a good lesson, yeah. I think, yeah, this is a great story, too. The first talk to empty, a short story. The first talk to you had to present some of my findings and conclusions was based on the,

what became known as the Redwoods video or the playmate video, also known as. Oh, yeah. And that was up at Harrison Hot Springs. And I got up there and had been told that my arrangements had been made. Of course, the arrangements had been made for my travel and so forth, being a speaker. And when I got to the front desk, there was no room for me. Oh, no. They were completely booked up.

No, nothing. No cancellations, no nothing. And so I jokingly said, hey, can I at least camp on the beach down by the lake? here on the lodge grounds. And I hear this voice from behind me, he says, don't be ridiculous. You're coming home with me. I turned around and it was John Green. Whoa, cool.

I just was starstruck. And so I got to spend that entire weekend as his house guest on the downtime between conference sessions. And to boot, his other house guest was none other than John Bendernagle. Wow. So what to the persona on a personal level, then to spend my evenings with those two? That's where we discovered that my librarian was his niece. Oh, wow. He goes, how did you know so much?

Because I had when, at that age, when I got interested in a topic, I was a little bit obsessive and really dug deep, as I said, even though my interests would bounce around. And so I had my own, and also in preparation for this report, I did a lot of research. But I did lots of things. In addition to clipping newspaper articles and finding magazines and so forth, going to looking on the microfilm at the library, when the documentaries would come out, we'd wait until they came to the driving theater. And then we would record the soundtrack on a whole cassette recorder.

Oh, that's so cool. So you could listen to it. Or even I'd even smuggles and I got a drive-in theater. smaller when I'd smuggle it into the into the movie theater and I would record those and then I would listen to them at night. That's amazing. To rock and roll music that listening to that he always follows the creeks. Soundtrack to the legend of boggy creek and the creature of black clay and so forth. Wow. Oh man. We didn't have copy machines and so when I would check out a book from the library

with a passage about the Obama's Soman, I would sit at the mom's typewriter and with two fingers, type out that, transcribe that section. That is amazing. So I could, so I would learn these things really thoroughly. So John was, how did he was very curious. And then I told him about doing this report and that miss or that librarian, I could remember her name, I just said librarian. And he said, do you remember her name?

And I said, no. He asked which school it was, Indian Trail Elementary in Spokane, Washington. Do you remember your library? No, I don't remember. It's been 40, not 40 years, 30 years, 20 years back then. and he said was it Mary Bessaker? And you know when someone says it and you remember the familiarity, and he dropped it?

And immediately he said, that's my niece. And he reaches over and he picks up the phone dials or number. Hey, Mary, you'll never guess who's sitting across the table from me. You remember that little who was the first one to check out your book? And she did. She remembered.

That is so cool. It was just really amazing. Oh, man. there's something I want to ask you about. I'm going to really put myself out there because I can't verify what I'm about to ask, but we'll see if this is actually a thing, okay? So be nice if I'm totally off. But I think I remember hearing Danny Perez tell a story where there was a group of you

that took a car down to the film site. Is that actually a thing? And it was like you and some other people? The occasion was the dedication, the grand opening of the new wing, of the Willow Creek Museum. Okay. And in concert with, I think the conference was held in concert with that. Or I may be conflating two events, but in any case, there was a conference at the Willow Creek Museum and it included a field trip.

And so I wrote a bus down with one of the groups and hooked back up with them. I got a nice portrait with me and Danny and Bob and the whole bunch of them. Dmitri Balianov was there. So on. John Bindernagle was in the picture. Oh, my goodness. And we got to actually go down there. And I was right there at John's or Bob, Gimlin's elbow.

Is he, I mean, this was his first opportunity to be back. Wow. And so he was remembering back all those years. Oh, man. And the place was overgrown with Alders when we were there. It was very different when he was there. There had been a couple of seasonal floods, rather severe floods that had scoured the creek bed and opened up that sandbar so you could see patty walking across the

open there all that sandbar had been overgrown with alders and it was pretty thickly vegetated so it was awesome it was interesting to see him remember remember landmarks big trees or walkout crops and so forth and they were pretty sure that they were darn close to the spot that's so cool that is yeah it was interesting to be there i scooped up a little bit of little sample of the sand. Oh, yeah. Film canister, both as a memento, but also I actually, when I did the Ichnotaxonomy, and we named the footprints, I had a colleague of mine, who's a physical geologist, do a formal description of the geological and chemical characteristics of the sandbar in which the tracks were made. He made the call. Wow. He said,

It's interesting because the sand was not granite kind of quartzite type of sand. It was a very eroded shale and very angular grains, which when compacted, when moist, really held their shape. And that's why the footprints were so clear and could be pieces that went there even weeks, if not months after the fact, and still see the trackway proceeding across. It was, yeah, it was quite interesting. That is really cool. as there's a ton like the interest in bigfoot right now is extremely high i would say over the last few years it just keeps getting crazier and crazier if you're thinking about the current generation even younger than i am 20s 18 around there what are what are the skills that the next

generation really needs to focus on in order to be effective bigfoot researchers There's so many facets to the research, and that's one of the challenges of appearing to be the only academic seriously involved with it is one of the hats I do, Don, is Ringmaster, if you will. Yeah. Do you want to call it a circus? It feels like a circus sometimes trying to direct resources and personnel towards particular topics, or rather direct the topics to people who can have an impact on it, whether it's bioacoustics or whether it's bioacoustics or whether. whether it's DNA analysis or whether it's hair analysis and so forth. And so an individual researcher, if they can certainly educate themselves in a variety of ways, sometimes when I speak at conferences, we add on some workshops.

I've done this as a primary topic of presentation as well, just footprints 101. Oh, wow, yeah. What is it that we're looking at? And what's the nature of the dynamic signature of a footstep? of a static foot. Totally. There's been an upsurge as well in misidentification of bear tracks, for example. Oh, interesting.

Bear sightings, bear photographs. You can go online and look for Bigfoot photos. And I was for this presentation I did on Bears and Bigfoot, the similarities and differences. I easily pulled out more than a half a dozen examples that have. have been attributed photos that have been attributed to Sasquatch that are absolutely clearly bear, prominent amongst those the Jacobs photo, which has created all kinds of heat and very little light in the conversations about it. But anyway, there are such tremendous resources available to someone online. I point out that being able to differentiate a bear from a big foot is really

not rocket science. It does take a knack for noticing detail and so forth, but with a little effort, You too can do this at all. You can. Yeah, you can create your own Atlas, your little Atlas of Bigfoot tracks by just Googling, I'm sorry, Bigfoot tracks. No, Bear tracks. That's where I misspoke. Bear tracks by Googling Bear tracks and pause and put together and get familiar with the

differences. Now, you may need someone to walk you through to really notice and recognize the distinctions, but it won't take you very long to be able to tell the. difference. And there's some, again, also some embarrassing situations where people who should have known better have whatever motivation, either naivetee ignorance or have attributed Bigfoot or Sasquatch status to what's obviously a bear brand. So that's one. I tell people, again, you pick out an area close to you, a rule of thumb, since we're talking about bears, there's been a very interesting paper published that shows

remarkable similarity in the estimated range of Sasquatch with the known range of black bears. Really? Various bio-clamatic factors and so on. And it makes sense. It's not really because you've got too large omnivores. And their preferred resources certainly are distinct, but overlap. And anyway, but the point is, so rule of thumb is, I think, is a starting point. a reliable rule of thumb is, are there black bear in your selected study area?

If there's not, if there never have been or they've been extirpated because of population growth and development and expansion and impact hunting and so forth, then if a bear can't make a living in that spot, it's not very likely that a 800 or 8 foot 800,000 pound Sasquatch. Yeah, that's smart. Yeah. Social unit could as well. But once you've got that narrowed down, then just get familiar with it. Instead of trope and all over thinking, thinking that the grass is always greener on the other side,

it's better to get familiar with an area that you can spend time. Oh, man. Yeah. Encounters are serendipitous by chance. So it's like winning a lottery. You won't win unless you buy a ticket. The more tickets you buy. That's true.

So the more time you can spend in the field. That was one mistake I made early on in my efforts. I was trying to network with a lot of people to maximize the eyes and ears and hands and feet that were employed in this effort. But in the process, we would spend an awful lot of time and resource traveling to these far-flung areas in the Pacific Northwest and so forth. and then realize that, hey, there are lots of reports right here in eastern Idaho and western Wyoming. Oh, yeah, sure. And we put it on and spend, like you said, spend more time, weekends and so forth, checking things out. And so that's what I encourage people to do is cultivate research and familiarity with their own backyard, if you will, understand the animals.

It's become a naturalist, become an amateur naturalist. enjoy doing it. That is, man, that alone right there. That is worth the price of listening to this podcast, which is zero. But that was amazing. Like, that's awesome answer. Thank you. Is there a thing that you wish?

So here's the thing I found out about you. You do a lot of interviews. Like, hats off to you. You are all over the place. Like, you really get on a lot of stuff. Is there a thing that people never ask you that they wish, you wish that they would bring up? No, it's all over the place. I try, even when I get the repeated standard,

I try to put a little different spin on it each time. Yeah, nice. It's hard to know, hard to answer that. I can't think of specific things. Sometimes questions are very specific. Something's just happened with the footprints that were found up in British Columbia that are the rounds now online. And this set a footprint in the mud.

So I responded on Facebook and post, time. Someone shared it with me, thankfully. People do send me things, and sometimes I preface it with, you probably already know about this, but I'll send you anyway. And oh, hey, I appreciate it. I don't have the time to sit there with bolts all the time. Like I said, more eyes and ears, sharing things that are going on. Plan B made over-the-counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago. It's a safe, effective backup birth control option that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is the number one OBGYN recommended brand and the only one that you can find

at all major retailers in all 50 U.S. states. There's no minimum age requirement and you don't need an ID to buy it. You can order it through DoorDash and other major delivery platforms too. That's freedom to be. Use as directed. All right, quick quiz for the hiring managers out there. What's worse? Being understaffed or being poorly staffed?

Well, that's a trick question because both are recipes for chaos. Either way, just say to yourself, this is a job for Indeed's sponsored jobs. You'll get matched with candidates that meet the skills, certifications, and everything else you're looking for. Or go a different way and get no traction. Seriously, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. It really is a no-brainer. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results.

When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed's sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. No matter the occasion, snack time should be easy. That's why Skinny Popcorn keeps it light, airy and endlessly delicious. Skinny Pop is made from just three simple ingredients, delivering an irresistible taste without being complicated. Skinny Pop simplicity allows you to freely enjoy as much popcorn as you want. Just open the bag and enjoy. No overthinking, no tough choices. When it comes to snacking,

Skinny Pop just makes sense. Deliciously popped, perfectly salted. Skinny Pop, popular for a reason. Someone shared this with me and I took a look at it. At first glance, it was described as huge, footprints, huge footprints that were a whopping 11 inches long. That's on the upper end of human, but not quite. And they were measuring to the outside of the extrusion of the footprint. And so instead of down inside where the actual foot width was documented, it was only four inches across, not six or seven inches across. And it had an arch.

It had the human toe disposition, the big toe, and then the little toes are much smaller pads that angle down and so forth. There was a very distinctive heel imprint. There's a great opportunity. What I try to do on my Facebook page is take those circumstances and bend them to a teaching opportunity and educate a little bit as well. And not to put down anyone or anything. Oh, yeah.

No. But to educate. What are the top books that someone just getting into Bigfoot should get on Amazon like today? Yep. You got to get Sasquatch. meets science. Number one, right?

That's the thing, right? And then I put a plug in for my field guide. That has turned out to be a real useful little tool because. Totally. And not only for more experienced, seasoned outdoors, enthusiasts who get into this, but it's been a great tool for kids as well. Yeah. It's fun too, so that when kids go out in the forest, they're looking for sign and they're

asking questions about footprints. and nests and different things that they find. So I always enjoy that kind of feedback. Other books, it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to really get a sense of what I believe Sasquatch is, books like John Bindernagels, North America's Great Ape to Sasquatch is great. Robert Allen's Rainco's Sasquatch is great. Oh, yeah.

From a historical perspective, Chris Murphy has done a fantastic job, with his meet the Sasquatch and know the Sasquatch. I have a very visual learner. And a book that's replete with all these historical photographs. Photographs is just an amazing treasure trove of information. Of course, the classics like John Green's, his trilogy, plus then the Apes Amongness is really a must-re thing. Sanderson's is a classic.

It's one that you have to read to say that you've read it. And you'll still gain a lot. And he's got so many such an archive of accounts to the extent they're reliable. There's always a question of reliability of some of those anecdotal reports. But there are things, there are problems. Grover Kranz's book is still great. Reduction to footprints as well. I've really stood on Grover's shoulders in many ways, many, many aspects and was able to push forward.

And I think correct, tweak a few misconceptions that he had. His specialty was, he was a very accomplished anatomist and physical anthropologists, but he wasn't a specialist in footprints. And so we had some enlightening conversations about the Bosberg tracks and about the mid-tarsal break and so on. Boy, there. That's a good list, though. Yeah, that's a good story. I have a few topics. And I'm curious what your snap reactions to them are.

All right, here we go. Mothman. Oh, it's curious. I don't have enough information. enough personal study to have a informed opinion. Okay. I don't equate those types of paranormal phenomenon with what I'm making to whether there's biological species behind the legend of Saswatch. Okay. Cool.

Van Meter Visitor, you ever heard of it? Who? It's an Iowa cryptid called the Van Meter Visitor. Have you ever heard of it? I've never heard of that. It's cool. You should check it out. You should check it out.

Okay. It's like this like wings, Teradactal, terrorized a town. in the 1800s. It's pretty cool. I always bring it up. Anyways, the 1976 movie In Search of Bigfoot. Any thoughts? Sure. That was the one with Leonard Nimoy. Was that with Leonard Nimoy or was that with Peter Graves? I usually focus on Robert W. Morgan, but no, Nimoy's in it. I'm pretty sure. Nimoy was the host, yeah. And Peter Graves was mysterious monsters. That was also a great movie. But yeah, we have, again, the impact was more substantial now than my recollection of the detail.

Gotcha. I had to Peter Graves or the book that was spawned from Mysterious Monsters, the documentary. Oh, cool. Those images are a little more reinforced. Yeah. Now, I like In Search of Bigfoot and also the In Search of Series. I know they're separate, but I like both of them. Hey, there's another Star Trek connection.

That's true. That's true. I've been introduced by Leonard Nimoy and Jonathan Frakes. Oh, have you really? That's awesome. That's so cool. Ape Canyon attack. Eight Canyon attacks.

Is that the story or the... The story in 1924? Sure. Oh, yes. Again, it's an interesting how much is historical and how much is historical embellishment. I think it very likely, when you winnow through some of the chaff that something occurred

and that they did have encounters. Why not? That area is prime. Yeah. Country. And so I don't know what motivation they would have. I can understand motivation of somebody to prank them potentially, to scare them off a claim or to afford their efforts or something like that,

but why those individuals would claim such things and precipitate such ridicule on themselves at that time. At that time, it was still pretty risky business to. Yeah. And it's so far out there, too. It'd be hard to go out and prank them. But yeah, it's such a classic Bigfoot story historically. Pierre sounds fascinating. I, again, I have had the opportunity to get very well acquainted with Ron Moorhead and understand him.

It's I have, there's just a couple of reservations that I have. And the one that still hitches, there's two, two. One is the footprints associated with the circumstance. Interesting. The footprints are not. satisfying. Okay. In that, they just aren't anatomically very satisfying, is what I mean.

They're very wedge-shaped. You cannot tell whether you're looking at a right or a left foot. They're bilaterally symmetrical. Toes straight across the end. There's no toe angle. There's no differential toe size. There's no nice big rounded heel, at least in the examples that I've seen. I can't see if that's exhaustive or not.

Sure. The only thing is I find the vocalization is really interesting. I'm especially intrigued by the whistles because even to my ear, there was the sense of a harmonic as if there was an overtone being created by the modulation of the pharynx. Okay. And that ties into the potential of extraceal air sacs and also associated with that, the production of infrasound, which I think is a fascinating. Oh, yeah, totally.

but nevertheless. But I don't think I'm not, I stopped short of acknowledging that there's evidence of language. Okay. I had some interesting discussions with Scott Nelson. I still hope we can continue those, but he hasn't convinced me of all of the conclusions that he's drawn from those vocalizations. Totally. I hope and we can get some more involvement with that. I keep pushing him to write up some of his findings and submit them to the relic hominoid inquiry. There's another source. That would be great. Listeners should avail themselves out is my online journal that I edit.

And if we could get those out and involve some other linguists commenting and dialoging on that, I think that would be very productive and very fascinating. Yeah, the info on that journal is so cool. I had interviewed Dr. Haskell Hart due to an article he has up there. It's very cool. but last but not least so last one is have you ever heard skin walker ranch i have i've read a little i've had a lot of people send me stuff about it i watch a little bit of it on the tv of one of those documentaries yeah not impressed okay just not i don't i've any time i don't dismiss

paranormal phenomena i i have just not personally experienced any of the things that are being asserted that occur on Skinwalker Ranch. And whenever I'm there present, nothing happens. Or when someone produces documentation of their experience, for example, there was a man who was just trying to convince me that he had been seeing orbs of light. I said, I've taken pictures. Yes, of course I've taken picture. There we go.

Send me the best example you have of orbs. So he posted a picture, sent me an email picture. it was a flash photo taken at night. Okay, yeah. Pollan comes straight down and he goes, look, there's orbs everywhere. So, yeah, that was a pollen grains. I've been out there. I've been, we were a couple summers ago in Colorado when the big ponderosa pines were pollinating.

That pollen ends up being inches thick because it blows around on the ground. But as it's flying, you turn on your headlight to go back to your tent. And you couldn't hardly see it. It was like you were in a blizzard. Oh, man. People are interpreting things like that as orbs of light. So, wow.

Same thing with Skinwalker Ranch. I'd love to be proven wrong. I think it would be fascinating to explore some of those phenomena, but so far, no one's ever provided the pudding. Just to clarify, because I know a few people are going to ask this. So have you,

it sounded like you'd been there, but I'm thinking you have it. Okay, I just want to clear that up. I've not actually been there. Okay, cool. I've been to some locations or sites where people have claimed have had similar experiences and so forth. Gotcha. Gotcha.

I'm a stick in the mud, I guess. I'm the party pooper. That's all right. You're busy enough with all the Bigfoot stuff. So we want you to focus on that. Oh, man, Dr. Meldrum, this has been like super fun. Thank you so much for hanging out. I remember when I first approached you about this,

are you still okay with staying a few minutes on after the episode? Oh, yes, sure. That's fine. Perfect. Sorry about not checking with that earlier, but remind the listeners how they can best follow your work. Yeah. I don't have a web page per se. I do have a Facebook page and I try to post. There are sometimes some lapses. So my Facebook page, which is under my full name, Don Jeffrey Meldrum. Okay. But also I would, again, highly recommend checking out the relic hominoid inquiry. Definitely. Which is at www.com.com. I.com. So my university, isu.edu, forward slash R-H-I. Or if you just Google relic hominoid inquiry, you'll find it. And we're in our 10th year now. So we've got accumulating quite a number of interesting articles, research papers, some great historical translations, transcriptions of Mary Jean Kaufman's paper, Magner's paper from Mongolia, his writings.

and so forth. There's some great book reviews again. And the book reviews are not, they're essay style book reviews. So they're really meaty, not just this book was published and it has 200 pages and three figures and the table of contents. They go deep into the topic and oftentimes actually have responses from the authors to the. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, totally. So we try to get a lot of comments and dialogue going back and forth, but that's a great way to see some really interesting stuff. Awesome. Thank you.

It's been reviewed, peer reviewed. Very good, very good. Thank you again so much for coming on tonight, Dr. Meldrum. And thank you again to all the listeners for hanging out with us. I think I already know the answer to the first one. I'm guessing.

So no UFO or ghost stories. I actually have a UFO story. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. And I actually have an interesting ghost story, too. Oh, okay. All right.

Yeah, if you want to do that. Yeah, totally. It's not very dramatic, but it was, I was on a date and we were stargazing, literally stargazing, and conversing getting acquainted, but we were on the BYU campus in Utah. Okay. And out by the clock tower and watching the sky. And as a kid, we often had, most of the homes in my neighborhood had sundex. And so we would often have slumber parties, the kids in the neighborhood, the kids on our street.

About 39 kids. in K through 12 on Earth Street. Lots of families. So we oftentimes had these summer slumber parties and just wall-to-wall sleeping bags on the deck. And we'd be watching the stars and pointing out constellations and, of course, watching for satellites or shooting stars. And so I was very familiar with what a satellite looks like on its trajectory.

And all of a sudden, we saw something. Instead of an oblique trajectory from northwest to southwest or something like that, this thing was moving in a similar fashion. but moving from north to south, just straight as narrow. And that wasn't that unusual, except that once it got right over the top of this, and it was just a little spot of light, it made, it executed two right angle turns, just as sharp as if you had a square up there. Oh, man.

And I'm watching that for a second. And I turned and I looked at my date and I don't even remember her name. Did you see that? She said, yeah, have you ever said anything? Do that? No, I have never. How could anything? I actually do that.

So that was the one. That's crazy. The other one happened, the ghost story happened up in Wyoming at John Mineskysk's place. John and I spent a lot of time together. And I was up there and he has a cabin that he built himself and has a little guest cabin for people that visit. It's just 100, 150 yards down this trail separated from his cabin.

It's just a little one room. And I was in there. and during the night, something woke me up, or I became aware of something in the room. I thought, now I don't have great vision. I have 22,000 something. I'm legally aware without my contact lenses or glass. Oh, wow. So at night, I can still see, but at night, my vision is compromised.

It's my classroom right where I put them, then I'm in trouble. But I rolled over, and this cabin has these huge picture windows around. the almost all the way around, three of the four walls have huge picture windows with no curtains or drapes. It's pretty dark, but the little ambient starlights coming in and standing next to my bed, you brought up Mothman. This almost looked like Mothman. It was this sort of ambiguous-looking rounded shape with these two luminescent eyes. No way. And it was just, but the shimmering appearance was just my blurry vision. And I looked at it for a second and it was just two or three feet removed from the bed. And I looked at it and I just thought, it's weird. And I rolled over,

turned my back to it and went back to sleep. The next morning, I just had this kind of creepy feeling about it. And the next morning I asked, I told him, I didn't ask him. I just said, oh, I had the weirdest dream last night. Plan B made over-the-counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago. It's a safe, effective backup birth control option that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is the number one OBGYN recommended brand and the only one that you can find at all major retailers in all 50 U.S. states.

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He said, you're about the third person who's described that. No way. And then he told me about his experience. He had something, and it has deep Indian tradition roots. But something had, there was a shortcut from down there. He lives just outside of Atlantic City, which is just an old mining ghost town almost. but and there was a shortcut. His cabin is up on the shoulder of the hill above the town and he was walking that

shortcut which took him past this big old dead snag of a tree and he had a dog with him at that time and the dog as they approached the tree, the dog started to bristle and growl. Oh, man. The dog kept watching the tree as they walked past and he called the dog and the dog came along. He went into the cabin and the dog came in and turned around and just watched. the door of the cabin and then the dog he said the dog's eyes followed something come through the door into the cabin the dog waf paste it with his eyes going across man anyway that night john had a dream about a figure that was like down his was a little clearer it was like a giant owl and suddenly the owl and in his at least in his dream you thought it pounced on him and in this owl it stands like five people wow they were wrestling And he said he felt like this was a life or death struggle for him. And anyway, he woke up the next morning, just covered in sweat.

His bed, linens and things are just ripped apart and it all over the floor. And anyway, he talked to a shaman about it, an elder. And he immediately recognized it. There's a name for it. I can't remember what the name is. Oh, really? It's a creature, that the spirit that when you are, life is at a crossroads or very depressed or whatever, sometimes you encounter this spirit.

And you said, if you had lost your fight, your battle with this, you may not have survived I tell about it. Oh, man. So this, yeah, very deeply entrenched in their traditional beliefs. And so I may have caught a glimpse of that. That's awesome. Perceiving any crossroads in my life. I was trying to think back to the circumstance at that time if there was something going on. But apparently I wasn't so bad that it was deemed I needed to wrestle with the wrestling with the angel the biblical stuff. Exactly. Old Testament style, yeah.

Last question. So when people, for some reason around my generation, we really like the Monster Quest episode when you're in Snellgrove Lake. It's just, it's something about, it's like, it's all over the plate.

Like people really like it. Do you have any memories from being in that episode? That was very good. Yeah. And you're referring to the first one? The first. Well, that's true. There are two, aren't?

Yeah. There were two. The first one, yeah, it was, and it was funny, too, because the way it was edited, cut out the more sensational bit. And that was when the rock, so for those who aren't familiar with it, basically we, we often, after the day's activities, we would tend to stay up late at night. to listen for things and sometimes to do a wood knock in those days. Do a wood knock and I wasn't a huge fan of it even then.

And we'd throw our voices, make calls because out there on the lake when cold night, boy, it would just carry. And when it was really still, you could hear things on the opposite side of the lake, a good half mile away as if they were standing right next to you, as if the sound was going to right next to it. So it was really carry. Anyway, one night and that night we heard a vocalization seemed to be. responding to one of our yinels.

Really? Just a distant trailing call. And then, so we would, like I said, we'd often stay up later up. This campfire was basically a culvert sunk into the ground, stuck up about two feet with a rim, keep sparks down. And I was, I'm not a great night out. And back then especially, I was, I was borderline narcoleptic. Oh, really?

I discovered that I had actually have central sleep apnea. Oh, wow, yeah. Dealing with now, but I was notorious. I could fall asleep just if I sat still or if I was in the passenger seat of the car or if it got past to 10 o'clock, I would just fall asleep. You're out. Anyway, and so by about 11, 12, I was really starting to get punchy. So I went in heaven to just splash cold water in my face. while I was in there, the producer's son came on to the porch.

He didn't want to go to the outhouse, which was about, oh, 20 yards behind the cabin down a catwalk in the dark. It's quite removed. And he goes on the porch to relieve himself. And the all of a sudden, twang, just the sound of a, like someone had shot a BB gun against this metal siding on the cabin. The cabin was sited all the way around as well as a corrugated roof. and something had thrown just a little pea-sized rock or something, it just made a ping, one of those pings sounds. But it was right next to this kid, and his eyes were the size of saucers,

and he's hiking his pants back up, I could see him running back out to the fire. So I finished what I was doing, dry it off, and came out, and they said, did you hear that? I said, yeah, I did. I said, which one of you did it? I looked at everybody. We were all over there. I was just probing him. Then Kurt Nelson picks up a rock.

He said, I'm going to throw a rock in that direction. And I jokingly say, well, don't throw anything too big. It might throw it back. Oh, man. He picks up a golf ball-sized rock, and he lobs it back. Then you could hear it report bounce off a couple of trees and nothing. So about 10, 15 minutes go by, if that much. And I just happened, I was on the right side, the correct side away from the cabin.

And out of my peripheral vision, I just happened to glance up because into the illumination of the firelight, comes this rock. No way. The roof of the cabin. Oh, man. The direction he'd thrown it. It was off from a different angle, but nevertheless, the coincidence was there. And it was so funny because they all go running into the cabin.

And I'm saying, where are you going? Oh, this is why we're here. Exactly. This is it. Yeah. And it was funny because there was some firewood when the producer's son, he was. wasn't a real outdoors kid and not a lot of experience. You know how you, when a youngster has his first experience with an axe, they chop and

it actually will chop anything. But he chopped all this firewood, this little cordwood. And it was in the shadow cast from the covert lip. I didn't see it as I stepped back. I stepped on one and rolled my ankle. Oh, no. I went falling down. So from the cabin, it looked like I'd been being by the second rock or a second rock, not

the second rock, but a second rock. To their credit, the team came out to my rescue to make sure I was... That's nice of them. Yeah. But then, unfortunately, on camera, Kurt saying, here we are cowering in the cabin. I got so much email as a result of that one line. What are you doing in the cabin? Why aren't you out there looking for... And I say, well, here's what actually happened.

That's intense. Yeah. Wow. Now, what happened, what was really interesting, though, is that we finally did by about 2.30. I was falling asleep, almost falling into fire. And I said, I'm going to go to bed. There's nothing else is happening. And we had gone back into the woods.

We had a very, at that time, a very sort of primitive sort of thermal imager. It was not like the little miniature fleers. And in fact, the only way we could use it is if a technician from the company came with it to handle it. And we also had night vision. And we had gone back into the woods looking. We had ventured out. But you couldn't see anything. And it was precarious because up there on the Canadian Shield, it can be very rocky with all kinds of splits and crevices.

And there's moss covering it. And it's like you step and break a leg. And so traipsing around in the pitch black was a little bit precarious. So we eventually regrouped around the fire. Finally, I said, I can't. I'm going to fall asleep and follow the fire. So we went, I'll decide we'd all go to bed, but we'd keep our boots on. Okay.

Yeah, just in case. Yeah, just in case, like firemen on the ready for the farm to go off. I tell you, the lights had gone out and my lids were just getting heavy. And all the, come bang, cabang, cabang, across the roof. This time, it wasn't a little rock. It was a big chunk of cordwood from the wood pile back in the back. Oh, really? Wow.

It crossed the roof and fell off the stoop and was on the catwalk in the back. We looked out the, first of all, there were screams. You would have thought we had some in the group with us, but lights went on. I said, turn the lights off, turn the lights off. Yeah. I said, so we could see out and they couldn't see in. I was so eager to go running out into the darkness if it was raining cordwood, but still, no sign of anything.

Oh, man. Nothing happened. So that was the extent of it. But it was an interesting. That is really cool. That is cool to hear your side of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man. Wow. Thank you so much, Dr. Meldron. This has been fantastic. Fantastic, and I really appreciate you taking your time tonight and hanging out. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Bigfoot Society podcast. Every encounter we share reminds us that the world is bigger and stranger than we think, and that the truth is often hiding just beyond the tree line.

If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to the channel on YouTube, hit the bell so you don't miss the next episode, and share this with a friend who's into mysteries, monsters, or the unexplained. And if you're listening to us on Spotify or Apple Podcast, please follow this. show there and leave us a five-star positive review because all that helps more people discover the show. And remember, if you or someone you know has had a Bigfoot citing, please, I'd love to hear from you. So email me at Bigfoot Society at gmail.com and let's start the conversation. If you haven't gotten a chance yet, check out our membership community over at www.bighfootsociety

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