Bigfoot Society - The Abominable Snowman of California: A Conversation with Dustin Severs

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

In this Bigfoot Society interview, Dustin Severs, the author of 'The Abominable Snowman of California: Giant Footprints, Wooden Stompers, and the Making of an American Legend', shares his research and findings about Bigfoot history. He discusses his multi-year process of writing the book, which involved pouring through newspaper archives and personal collections. He talks about many Bigfoot research personalities like Bob Titmus, Peter Byrne, and John Green, highlighting their dedication and sometimes feuds in the pursuit of Bigfoot. Severs also delves into his personal experiences researching in Bluff Creek, California. The conversation further extends into Ray Wallace's contribution to the Bigfoot lore and the underlying tension within the Bigfoot research community. The interview concludes with Severs indicating a sequel to his book in the works.Resources:'The Abominable Snowman of California: Giant Footprints, Wooden Stompers, and the Making of an American Legend' (Amazon affiliate link):https://amzn.to/3sEu1NiSasquatch Archives Youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TheSasquatchArchivesWATCH THE IOWA EPISODE IN THE “SASQUATCH: A SEARCH FOR SABE” DOCUMENTARY SERIES BY TATE HIERONYMUS // FIND OUT ALL ABOUT MY FIRST BIGFOOT ENCOUNTERS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo8O4rvywzESponsors:(If you are interested in having your company listed here as a sponsor of the Bigfoot Society podcast, please reach out to me at [e-mail])To unlock more bonus content and much more, become a supporting member of Bigfoot Society by joining the Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/thebigfootsocietyBecome a Youtube Channel member here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Qq45W6iaTU8FE9kelxT7Q/joinSupport Bigfoot Society one time by buying me a coffee here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/bigfootsociety To pick up a Bigfoot Society shirt, stickers and more, check out our merch by heading on over to https://www.etsy.com/shop/BigfootSocietyIf you’d like to send me fan mail, Bigfoot related products to check out or written out Bigfoot encounters then you reach me at the following address: Bigfoot Society 125 E 1st St. #233 Earlham, IA 50072Join our private Facebook group "Bigfoot Sasquatch Encounters" for a chance to connect with others who have had similar experiences. Follow the directions to ensure your entry is accepted.https://www.facebook.com/groups/5762233820540793/?ref=share_group_linkTune in to our YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Qq45W6iaTU8FE9kelxT7Q) for new episodes of Bigfoot Society, and visit our website (www.bigfootsocietypodcast.com) for all the links mentioned above and more.Don't miss out on the Bigfoot action! —— Affiliate links mean I earn a commission from qualifying purchases. This helps support my channel at no additional cost to you.—— MY GEAR —— My Audio Interface: https://amzn.to/3L1q8XYMy Podcast Mic: https://amzn.to/3AlYwb9My Computer: https://amzn.to/40CCjQyMy Headphones: https://amzn.to/40A8gcrMy Webcam: https://amzn.to/3Nqfddh

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All right, Big Society. You got the privilege of talking with Mr. Dustin Severs. He is the author of a book that everyone should be well aware of. I'm going to talk about it for a few minutes right off the bat. The Abominable Snowman of California. And if you're watching YouTube, I want you to see how thick this is. It is almost 500 pages. And wow, Dustin, it is such an incredible read.

I want to say first, hats off to you. It took you multiple years to write this, correct? That's correct. So it's actually I started. It's easy for me to remember. So I started writing it around the time of the 50th anniversary for the Patterson Gimlin film, which was October of 2017. And I just launched the book on October 28th.

So it's been almost exactly six years. And actually I wrote a book in two thirds because I had originally set out to write a book about the Patterson Gimlin film. And I did that for a couple of years. And after a while, it became obvious. It was just way too massive the book. So I said, hey, I could easily break this up into, I wanted to cover the period from 58 to 79. So I'll just split this down the middle, have a pre-PG film book and a post-per PG film book. So I'm saying I'm about 65, 70% done with the.

second book, which I'm hoping to launch on October 20th, 2024. It's almost like multiple books in one. One way I can explain it is, so I talk a lot with people like Tate Hieronymus, Jonathan Easley, Ron Mann-Reed, Alex Petacoff, people that have a lot of knowledge about the history, especially Tate. He's got a lot of history about how things align. And I've always thought, I was like, man, it would be great if there was just a place where all this stuff was because there hadn't been a go-to book where it's just all laid out the history and you don't have to keep texting Daniel Perez and hopefully he answers some random question you have. man, you lay it all out about all the crazy stuff that happened leading up to the Patterson

Gimlin recording on October 26. But it's way before that. It's back in the late 50s. And you're talking about Renee DeHendon and John Green and Bob Titmus. And it's just, it's wild. And I'm not a super Bigfoot scholar, but just to see it all laid out. The creative nonfiction, it goes back. Probably the person who made a famous Truman Capote when he wrote his book in Cold Blood in the early 60s.

He did it much more than I did. I say, for those who don't understand, literary nonfiction, yeah, it does require the author to fill in gaps. They basically use techniques associated with novels like dialogue and scenes, inner monologue. So I say the book is probably, it's really probably 85% just traditional nonfiction mix in a little bit of literary nonfiction scenes and dialogue. Yeah, I do like to tell the scenes through the perspective of one particular person. And, yeah, but I went through tremendous pains that be as accurate as possible. So I knew from the get-go, I was like, a lot of people were going to love this literary

nonfiction stuff. There's going to be other people to say, I like the book. I just wish you didn't do this fake fictional dialogue. And yeah, it is fictional, but actually almost everything. people, for example, there's a scene where Ivan Sanderson, his two colleagues are driving the station wagon. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So I'm not, I didn't want to write an analytical book looking at whether or not Bigfoot or the abominable snowman was a reality.

But I knew that I had a touch on that subject. So I did it through dialogue between two characters. And almost every thing that Ivan T. Sanderson says in that chapter is, or things he actually said in real life. So I've read some, I've got some of the. T. Centers and books and interviews. I just compiled this huge list. And then I just basically make an argument out of it. And that's how I've done almost all the scenes in the book.

There's a chapter where Al Hodgson's having a conversation with Don Abbott. And Al Ashton actually said all those things that he's credited. I took tremendous pains to be as accurate as possible in the literary nonfiction scenes. Peter Burns in there. you have Jerry Crew. And I had no idea how he lost his wife tragically. And his background in Christianity, was that from actual interviews that you read? Yeah, that's all absolutely true.

Yeah, he was a bit of a religious fundamentalist. He was a believer in Bigfoot. He was adamant that he didn't believe in evolution as a creationist. So he was adamant that Bigfoot existed. I think there's an in a monologue where he said if these things exist, Noah must have had him on the arc. That sounds a little cheesy, but he actually said that. That's why I used it.

Did he really? He actually said that in an interview. There's also the scene where the back and forth with Jimmy Stewart. And I was like, man, you're hitting all the great stuff. What makes any story great and interesting, be it a movie, a book, a play is a great character. And the story of the Bigfoot legend has just an amazing cast of characters, some wacky, colorful guys. And as a writer, it was so fun to research and write about these guys.

And you can ask for better characters to write about than guys like Renee DeHendon, Ivan T. Sanderson, Ray Wallace. And then I've always found Green into Hendon's relationship. So hysterical because they're the classic straight guy, wise guy duo comedy duo like from the past yeah and cranky and lanky my favorite lanky and cranky i have credited todd prescott he's when he came up with that and i love it so i told him right away i was like i'm going to use that in the book is that okay he's like yeah sure yeah i use that throughout the book and yeah they're probably my two favorite i say that's why i focus on the boat most is green

and de hinden and the same in the second book is mostly about de hinden and green because it gets really interesting, Green and DeHenondon's relationship in the 1970s. Yeah, his amazing cast of characters. And Green and Hinton are my family. We talk about the most famous duo in Bigfoot history. Of course, people think of Roger Patterson and Bob the Emlin. Those who really know the history, they know the OGs are Renee DeHendon and John Green, undoubtedly. Was there a character that you found hardest?

to write from the perspective of? Yeah, I think we have a really interesting character. Do you want to really explain to the reader what they're all about is best to write from the perspective of somebody else? For example, I have, when I write about the scene with Ivan T. Sanderson's told from the perspective of Robert Christie, who was an actual person who, who he traveled with him in that 1959 trip, a Random House when he was preparing for his book, was when I introduced Sanderson to Bigfoot.

And I can't stress enough how important but a figure Ivan T. Sanderson is in Bigfoot history. So, yeah, they were all fun. I wanted to write from everybody's perspective. I try to get everybody. And, yeah, I think I pretty much hit everybody. There's probably some people I didn't write from their perspective. But, yeah, it's always fun to mix it up. Hats off for figuring out how to pay homage

to Renee DeHindon's way of talking in a fantastic way. It just, because I'm sure people going into this, like I've watched the videos on Todd Prescott's channel, Sasquatch Archives. It does not pull any punches, but there's a scene that threw me for a loop. It is so intense. And I would love to know your thoughts behind the scene.

It's the shotgun scene. and the great thing about this book is you go in the back and there's just a list for every chapter like I got this part from this interview or from this and this and I'm just curious the ideas for the shotgun scene where did that come from and also what liberties did you take if any in that scene itself sure yeah that is a great scene so it's absolutely true first off so I was I got that story from two separate people. I got from Keith Kiyazari, who was the South African. He was a pilot, so he was physically there when it happened.

And then the story was corroborated by Thomas Steenberg. I spoke to Keith Kiyazari over the phone. Great guy. Doing well. And he reluctantly told me about it. He mentioned, oh, and then I was like, well, what happened? And he was hesitant to tell me. He told me this story.

So after that, I messaged. Thomas Steenberg. I was like, Thomas, have you ever heard this story? And Thomas chuckled. And he's like, yeah, John Green told me the story before he died. And John Green said he would never repeat the story until after Renee died. So it was, yeah, the story was told by two people were physically there when it would happen. As far as liberties, all I know is this. Keith Keizari and neither Keith Keizari or John Green knew these specifics. All I know is it was extremely hot day. And somehow Renee got stuck for hours, if not the entire day, stranded. And when they returned, he was Appleplatic.

And Green went up to him, and he pointed a shotgun at him and threatened to kill him. It is so intense. And the whole book would make a great movie or maybe even a few movies, really. But that scene, oh, man. Yeah. I know I'm the first person to write it, but I believe Thomas has spoken about it on podcast in the past. They had several risks throughout their life.

So I think they're falling out was at the Pacific Northwest expedition. And then they always came back. And then that was obviously a big one. They actually got back together after that. So it wasn't really the straw that broke the camel's back was in the early 70s is when John Green was able to sell his newspaper, the Agassie Advance. And was able to make a living full time off of writing. and the state that said say that Renee was just really jealous. He had no fallback.

He lived only for the Sasquatch. So when he saw Green having success, I think he had a lot of envy. And then the way John Green tells the story is that when he started, John started sharing some of his research, specifically pictures that Renee had captured himself. That was the final straw. But contrary to popular belief,

they didn't have a complete, line. The band broke up after that. It no longer clapperied together. But until the day the Hinden died, they continued to correspond through letters, through phone calls. They were together occasionally. I think Thomas Stenberg said he's recalled several times where he had like dinner with him in the 1990s. They just didn't work with each other anymore. And it unfortunately did get really nasty. I have all, I have scores, if not hundreds of letters from the 1950s to the late 1990s between DeHen and Green and Grover Krans and other people. And it got pretty nasty.

It's like that. John Green was such a nice guy. Oh, he totally. Yeah. Yeah, they're all flawed characters in the book. And I think one exception is probably John Green. He's really a thoughtful, intelligent, honest person. And honestly, Renee, for all his faults, and he was no doubt like a ruthless SOB,

but he was nothing, if not honest. He was always an honest person. He never claimed to see. From his whole life, to my ass, have you ever seen a sashwash? No. Have you ever had any experiences? No.

So he was a very honest guy. He's honest. He's also a big jerk, but he's honest. Like he's one of those guys. I was like, maybe there'll be some redeeming. I was open.

I think there are some redeeming. I think he has a lot of redeeming qualities. I think everybody knows smiling their life, who the guy he's a the person's a total asshole but he's a good guy deep and deep down inside and you like him for all his fault so yeah he's just a very extremely flawed person yeah your book is great in showing that there were some really strong personalities and a lot of people just really did not like each other and it's incredible that the whole thing just didn't fall apart early on more than I guess it did in some ways.

Have you ever been to that area out there yourself, Dustin? Oh, yeah. So I live in southern Oregon, about 10 miles north of the California border. And actually, my house where I'm sitting right now is actually sits on the foothills of the Klamis few mountains, which is the same mountain range of which Bluff Creek is located. So it's about 70 miles as a crow flies from where I live. It takes about three and a half hours to go out there. Yeah, I've been going out there for seven years now, at least a few times a year.

Yes, I know the area. I feel like it's very important. If you want to write about something, you really need to know the lay of the land yourself. So, yeah, I go up there. I work the Bluff Creek Project guys. Okay. Yeah, so that's how I know Tate and all those other guys, Jonathan, they come out there every summer. Always ever summer can.

We typically go out there every October, but there was a fire this year. And then they felt, I'm not sure what happened. The last two octopers I've not been out there. and I always love going out there around October 20th. This is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real. We're all feeling a little digitally distracted and time-starved lately.

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The next three years, L.A. will welcome the world with major events unmatched by any destination. This moment is bigger than sports. It's about the impact on our communities, businesses, and people. with the help of the Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment Commission Foundation Foundational Partners, Amgen, Archer Aviation, Kaiser Permanente, L.A. Tourism and Metro, we're investing in the L.A. community and inspiring civic pride. Together, let's show the world why we love L.A. To learn more about the FIFA World Cup coming this June, visit Los Angeles FWC26.com.

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Or go with our classic collagen peptides. So you can stay vital, stay you. Visit vital proteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose treat or prevent any disease. So you've been involved with different Bigfoot research parties. it sounds. Have you ever had any interesting things happen when you've been out there? I've ever heard anything, seen anything, things of that nature?

I have not. Yeah, I'm a skeptic, but I'm not an evangelical skeptic. I'm not Greg Long when I wrote the book and wasn't my intent to dissuade anybody either way. I really want the book to be liked by skeptics and believers alike. So that was my intent. Despite being a skeptic, I still have this tremendous romance and love for Bigfoot. So every time I go up to Bluff Creek, I'm always, when I turn it off Highway 96 and start going up to Go Road or Bluff Creek Road, I always have butterflies in my stomach. I'm always looking around.

I usually got my Bigfoot playlist going in my vehicle. So, yeah, I love the legend. There was a part that the Bigfoot history, I'd never, I guess I've knew. a little bit about it, but the Blue Creek Mountain, that was just fascinating. Is that an area that you've actually, have you ever been to that area? No, yeah, absolutely. So it's actually, yeah, the Bluff Creek is just the adjacent watershed to Bluff Creek. It's basically the same locations where they found the tracks in the summer of 67,

just a few miles from where the PG film site is and also where Jerry Crute made his first plastered cast. That's an amazing thing about Bluff Creek is the whole. Holy of holies when it comes to big. That's where it all started. The amazing thing goes all the most historic places like Laos camp, the PG film site, Blue Creek Mountains all within a few mile radius of each other. If you ever drive up there, you're pretty much, once you get up there,

you're close to all the great historic spots. It's not an easy place to get to, though. It's pretty rugged. So, yeah. Because in that Blue Creek Mountain area, like, they said there were like hundreds and hundreds of tracks that we're seeing, correct? Yeah, I believe there's thousands of them. Yeah.

So, yeah, and so night, yeah, so I say the book is, there's three similar events that I cover in the book. And in part one, I cover the fall, that classic fall of 1958 in Humboldt County. Part three, I cover the slick expeditions, which go from the fall of 59 to the fall of 1962, then chapter, or excuse me, section four I cover the big year as Renee DeHenand referred to, which is 1967. So you say 1967, you automatically think of the Patterson, again, one film, of course, that's where everything culminated to that moment.

But there's some amazing events that occurred that year before that. And the big one being the Blue Creek Mountain tracks, which were actually the tracks that Roger Patterson heard about which got him to get Bob Gimlin and him to go to Bluff Creek later that fall. Has there ever been like a focus on the Blue

Creek Mountain area? Because I know it's right next to the film site, but it feels like it's being overlooked. And if there was an area where there was thousands of Bigfoot foot tracks at one point, you think we would be looking a little bit, just a little

bit into that area, but I don't know it's yeah no it's one of the seminal events and i don't think it at rithers ever really wrote about it john green wrote about his books but he doesn't go in tremendous detail of john green great guy but he's his writing's about as dry as his speech was he has great information as books but they're there's certainly not page turners but yeah a lot of valuable information his books but yeah it was it was a seminal moment in in bigfoot history and that's what again, that's what prompted Roger Patterson to come to, come to Bluff Creek with Bob Gimlin later that fall.

And of course, that's worthy. So the book covers what I like to refer to as the classic period of Bigfoot history. So that's the fall of 1958 to the fall of 67, the significance of the fall of 1958. And that's when Bigfoot, it was the origin, the genesis of Bigfoot from as understood in American popular culture. I have to underscore that because it offend people who are true blue believers. Obviously, if Bigfoot is indeed a flesh and blood animal, it's been around for thousands,

not millions of years. But my book focuses on the history of Bigfoot in American popular culture. So from that standpoint, Bigfoot absolutely started on October 5, 1958, when Andrew Gonzalez was the regional editor for The Humboldt Times, wrote an article about Jerry Krugniz, had a picture of his plaster cast footprint. And he coined, this is a little controversial, but he was the first to coin the name Bigfoot. There was precursors, but as I write in the book,

for all intents and purposes, that marked the genesis of Bigfoot. Of course, the significance of 1967 being the Patterson Gimlin film, which changed everything. The Patterson film is the essential story when it comes to the Bigfoot legends. It was really a paradigm shift. I say in three ways.

With the Patterson Gremlin film, the symbolism of the Bigfoot legend transitioned from being these giant inexplicable tracks in the earth to this shocking footage captured on a coat of chrome color. And the crown jewel of evidence went from these plaster gas footprints to the film itself. And the face of the legend went from Jerry Cruz's picture to Patty doing his famous Frame 352 strut. Another way it changed is how is the general public's conception of what Bigfoot was. During the classic period from 57 and 68, Bigfoot was largely considered to be a wild man as opposed to a giant ape, as John Green had long argued. Specifically in British Columbia, the Sasquoise, they were considered be a band of an Indian tribe. Essentially, aren't giant human beings with long hair on their head. And it's a little different in Bluff Creek in Northern California,

but they essentially believe Bigfoot was a wild man as well. But that all changed with the Patterson film. Patty is just what John Green had argued before that is essentially his giant gorilla on human legs. So to this day, when people think of Bigfoot, they think of this giant gorilla and not a wild man. And I say the third big change with the Patterson Gimlin film is just a popularity of the legend. So when Ivan Sanderson published this article in Argusley magazine in 1958 was the first which they published the photos from the Patterson Gimlin film, I say the Bigfoot legend was still somewhat local. I say the vast majority of Americans had never heard of Bigfoot.

Now you fast forward to January in 1981 when Ronald Reagan takes the oath of office, it's a household name. The entire country knows what Bigfoot was because in the 1970s was the decade for Bigfoot. If 58 to 67 was a classic period, 67 to 79 was the Golden Age. And that's when he had all, that's when you start having all these great cheesy, but he had awesome documentaries, the Hollywood movies, the books. And that's why I dedicated the book to Gen X, because that was the generation I grew up in the 70s to 80s.

And that's why Bigfoot is particularly, special to that Gen X generation. I was born in 79, so I was at the end of the Gen X. I didn't grow, I wasn't a kid in the 70s, like a kid in the 80s, but I still saw all those great documentaries and movies, so I can totally relate. I always say that Bob Gimlin, so for almost 30 years, Bob Gimlin was a recluse. He wouldn't talk about the Bigfoot legend, or the film, because he was ridiculed by his peers. Then in 2003, he reluctantly agreed to attend the, Bigfoot, the International Bigfoot Symposium in Willow Creek, which was ran by Al Hodgson and John Green, two people he really trusted. So he came in there. He came to the event. He spoke,

he spoke. And he was shocked. And he, the ovation he received. He was like a rock star. And he may have wondered what changed. I can tell you exactly what changed. All those kids that from the 1970s I grew up watching all this stuff on all these films about Bigfoot where now the adults running the world. So that's the second book I'm working on that. It really focuses on the PG film in its aftermath and how it just absolutely blew up in the 1970. So again, I can't stress the significance of that decade.

To me, it's the best decade when it comes to Bigfoot. And it's all credited to the Patterson Gimlin film. That was the catalyst. That was a catalyst that got everything going, Do you have a favorite documentary that you remember watching? Like old ones? Yeah, one of the older ones. Yeah, I get the names mixed up.

Some are better than others. As far as recent ones, I really like the Sasquatch Odyssey, which is somewhere in my book. I was one of the inspirations for the book. But yeah, I love all those Leonard Nimoy in search of an author C. Clark had some. I love all the documentaries and two. There's one in particular, one documentary that particularly, I just keep getting names mixed up. And people just don't understand that back in the 1970s, this is obviously before the Internet,

but this is also before cable television. You would have these documentaries on network television. This is a time where if you had a slot on primetime network television, it would, they would get 30, 40, 50 million people watching it. It's very different today. and the Patterson Gimlin film was showed repeatedly in documentaries throughout the 1970s, which is the reason that eventually garnered that reputation as being the second most watched amateur film in history second only to the Zipruder film. I don't think the Zepruder film was released like 75 or 76.

But yeah, all about the 1970s is a fascinating topic. But yeah, my book focuses on that period before the Patterson Gimlin film, 57, to 58 to 67, which was all about giant tracks as opposed to the film. What are your thoughts on, on Ray Wallace? How do you view him as an individual? Because he is a large part of this book at the beginning and at the end of it. Yeah, sure. So I actually really, as the more research I did on the guy, I really came to really like the guy.

He was a bad shit crazy. He was a functional. He was a functional nut. He was actually quite successful in his career. He ran several businesses. He had a family. He was a loving family. father, somewhat of a pillar in the community, although everybody knew he was a little loony between

his Bigfoot exploits to his astronomical work with flying saucers. That was interesting. Yeah, I really, no, I don't believe that he's responsible for all the tracks were up there. I would say my guess was, it was perhaps he was the main culprit, but I was, my guess is several people were faking tracks up there, but maybe not. So I try to give it a fair shake. It wasn't until the last chapter of the book that I really look into the legitimacy of the crew tracks and the double ball tracks. We have this distinguished between those two. So I'll do that real quick. So the double ball tracks had a, that's a term that John Green used to describe them. Some people call the split ball. Basically had this hourglass shape to it. It's a very unique.

track, and those were by far the most prevalent tracks found up in Bluff Creek throughout this classic period. But the interesting thing was, is that the crew track, the original tracks, that he held up, the cast he held up on the October 5th, 1958, was actually a different kind of tracks. So when Ray Wallace died in 2002, his family went to newspapers and this went viral and they said he my or our father was big foot and they had proof so they they showed this whole trove of stomper as I call them in the book basically they're like snow shoes these wooden shoes you can strap on the boots like snow and it goes tromping about and they are actually so the some of the stompers have were for absolutely

identical to the double ball tracks and there's also a set of tracks which are a dead ringer for the original track that Jerry Crew made a plaster cast of. However, John Green makes a counter argument of this. So the Blue Creek, so the, I keep saying the Blue Creek Mountain, the double ball tracks were first found by Bob Timmus in November, 1958. And around that time, he and Jerry Crew, who were childhood friends, made replica copies of the plaster cast and they were selling them. So they were all over the place in the 1950s.

1960s. So John Green argues that, yeah, they are, his stompers are dead ringers. He simply took those replicas and used it as a template to make his stompers. So it's the chicken of the egg argument. So I try to give a, I try to give both sides an even shake in that last chapter. And it's a legitimate argument that John Green makes. One of the coolest parts of the book, I love it, are the drawn maps at the beginning. What's the story behind those maps? Because they are fantastic. I know. I'll tell you this story about a guy named William Sullivan. And you probably have an entire shelf full of his books. He does hiking, Oregon hiking books. And he's been doing it for probably 20, 30 years. And they're extremely popular. He constantly comes out with new additions.

I have always been absolutely in love of his maps. I think they're so cool. But when I knew I want to make maps, email this guy. And I say, hey, I'm a huge fan. I have an entire shelf full of your hiking books on a trail runner. So I use his books all the time. I go like, the thing I like, love the most is your maps are so great. And he's a local historian. He writes history books. And this is somewhat local history as Bluff Creek is 70 miles from here. And I asked, I hey, would you be willing to make the maps from my books? And he said, and he'd never done before, but he'd be happy to do it. So yeah, I was absolutely thrilled to have his mask. I'm glad you say that because I love the books of the maps too. I think there's fun. That's why I like about the most.

They really get the reader excited to really dive into the book. This is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real. We're all feeling a little digitally distracted and time starved lately. We're craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense of calm and connection back into yourself too. If you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you. With 75 years of expertise, Miracle Grow takes the stress out of the process and makes it

pure joy. And let me tell you what, I can confirm this from the garden. I love spending time, I'm in outdoors in Los Angeles to my little potted plants where I grow herbs indoors in New York. I love working with plants. And I love Miracle Grow because whether I'm doing something in the soil or potting something in the apartment, Miracle Grow takes the best care of my plants. So my plants can help take care of me. And here's the big secret. Most people think water and sunlight are enough.

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I've heard these places over the last few years from people like Tate and Jonathan and Alex and Ron and all those guys. And it's cool because these maps, they lay it all out like, oh, it's all this stuff is right here. And there's a one that's more detailed of the area around the film site in Laos camp. There's also one that's a little bit wider out of the northern California area. And it's, you're not going to, you can't just find maps like that anywhere else. Like you have to have them in a very specific resource, this book that you've written. So taking a few years in a project like this, were there any parts of it where you're writing it, but you're finding out new stuff? The story is changing as I'm writing it because I'm starting to find this new evidence.

And were there any parts that the story just seemed to have? a life of its own while you were trying to put it on paper. Yeah, absolutely. So they always say that you don't have to be an expert on the subject matter when you started a book on when you finish it. So that was certainly the case from me. A lot of stuff I was learning as I went. So I was always learning more stuff and I have to go back.

Yeah, I spent six years just obsessively going through newspaper archives. And that's one advantage of writers today have over those from just 10 years ago is we have this amazing resource where all these. newspapers are digitized now. Now, the Humboldt Times and Humboldt standard have not been digitized. I actually had to go old school. I had to drive the Humboldt State Universe and go through the microfilm. And that took a lot of work.

So I was able to get all that stuff. I had uncovered a lot of stuff has never been uncovered before. I think it was the first person to really write about the British Columbia Expedition. So I was able to find a trove of letters between Bob Titmus and Tom Slick. and Tom Slick. And yeah, it was really fun. Probably doing the research is a fun part. When you had to sit down and write,

that's when it gets really hard. But yeah, it was a blast in the research. And, yeah, I had no clue that when I started the book, I was going to take me like two years. I had no clue, the rabbit hole I was going to get into denture down. And it was my goal. And it was a lofty goal. I mean, I wanted to write, you know, the most comprehensive book.

I've written about Bigfoot history because when I got into this subject, when I moved here in the spring of 2016, I was shocked. There wasn't much out there. There's been a couple people who have written books about the major personalities in this classic period. But it's just very on the surface. They don't do a deep dive. So I thought, wow, it'd be amazing. You had this historical writer with somebody like David Cran or Erica Larson or John Crackauer, which really take on this subject and spend a couple of years researching and writing it. I was like, I'll give it a try. I always love books.

I love history. I particularly love origin stories. I love anytime there's something I'm interested, I'm always asking. I said, how did this start? Particularly we had these subjects where everybody is generally familiar with. They don't really know the, really the true story, the facts from the fictions. So that's what, that was my, the goal I set out in writing this one and ended up being, very ambitious undertaking, but somehow I finished it.

How did you find the Titmus letters? Where were those up? They're in a university of Texas at San Antonio. Tom Slick donated his collection there, and it's a massive collection. Fortunately, a lot of the main characters have the collections. Ivan T. Sanders has a massive collection, which is held in Philadelphia. Again, Slick is in San Antonio. John Greens is right outside of Harrison Hot Springs.

And then Bob Titmus and Alhawshen have their collection at the Willow Creek Museum. I probably miss it. I'll forget some other people as well. Yeah, there's some great resources out there. So that's a China Flats Museum? Correct, yeah. Okay.

But what's in the Bob Titus collection? They have a display where they show the cast and stuff, but all the letters and stuff are actually upstairs. It's not open to the public. So I'd ask the curator. if I could go through it and she happily agreed to let me do something. I was shocked at how much cool stuff there was. And I like the letter that I'd always heard that in the fall of 58 that Bob Titmus sent a letter to Green,

telling them to come up about, because that's when he first discovered the double ball tracks. I didn't know that letter actually existed. It was actually in the file. I found some stuff and some, that's pretty, pretty surprising. I can't talk about yet. So yeah, I was like, wow. I thought there for a while. I thought it was close to find out where Patterson processed the film.

I got really excited. Ivan Sanderson is the best great letters. He's such an interesting guy. And John Greenham, his entire life, he made copies of every single letter he ever rose, which is so fortunate we have all that stuff to review. Talking about Bob Titmus, do you think he was faking evidence or what? your thoughts on that? I don't know there's any evidence that he

fake tracks. Based on my impression I got of Bob Titmus from his letter, he seems like a very, very thoughtful, intelligent guy. He seemed like a serious guy. I know that Ivan Sanderson really didn't trust him. Andrew Gnzoli didn't trust

him, of course, of course Peter Byrne and Renated him and despised him. In my opinion, he's the most overlooked figure in Bigfoot history. mostly because he just never he never taught you and making any movies in it writing books yeah rarely did an interview he did an interview with the international cryptoziology society i mean said that wrong in the mid 90s which is gold and i believe daniel Perez did an interview in the 90s

as well but there's almost nothing out there when he comes to bob timus and in my opinion the mount rush more of bigfoot researchers is green de hinden peter burn and bob titmus so in And in the Satchwatch Odyssey documentary, which is a wonderful documentary, they had the four horsemen, they had the green to him and burn. And they have Grover Krantz. And Grover Krantz is, yeah, he's certainly a significant figure. But, yeah, I think the, I think Timos was left out just simply to the fact there's no, there's hardly any film or interviews or anything of the guy. Well, yeah, I think he's overlooked. I think Jim McClare is another guy who's really overlooked when he comes to Bigfoot history.

Jim Claren is still alive and well. He is. He is. Down in South, South America. Mm-hmm. Yeah, fascinating guy. Very intelligent person.

I love how you have that scene in the book where it's like, there's a lot of stuff in the book where if you're like a big foot nerd, you're me, oh my goodness. That's, it has Jim like, like, Omar, the Omaha statue hasn't been carved yet. And it's just, ah, it's very almost back to the future. in a way when you're reading the story, the book, because you know where it's going. But it's very cool for sure. Is there a part in here where you're a little bit, you're not sure how it might be taken by the community

or any that you think might be more controversial than others the way you interpreted it? Yeah, I try to keep some of a neutral tone. I think I was successful most of the time. But yeah, I think it probably came out. I was perhaps in the end of the introduction, probably literally the last page and a half, the only time I really get really explicit

on my own personal views. But like I said, I really want to go on my way to write the book in a manner that both the general audience as well as Bigfooters, be to skeptics or believers can really like the book. And I've been really pleased that has been, so far, it's been really accepted. and by the Bigfoot community.

That's why I, yeah, I was absolutely concerned about that. I was also concerned about how, of course, there's hardly anybody left still alive of the character. Only people are still alive the day that I write about in the book or is Jim Claren and Jim Cruz is still alive. That was Jerry Cruz's nephew. And while I was writing in the book, Jay Rowland died, Al Hodgson died.

Oh, wow. Peter Burn just died in July. Wanda, Holmes, who was Renee's wife, died recently. I think I'm forgetting a couple other people. Yeah, so the last Mohicans is really Jim McLaren. Yeah, I was looking, sir. I did my best in terms of Peter Byrne. I'm not sure if he was like how he was portrayed in the book.

I thought I was charitable. Yeah. When I started my research, I knew that John Green hated his. guts. I always assumed he was just jealous of Peter Byrne, but the more research I did, I really understand where the contempt was coming from. And that went on for decades. And I think the problem was it was green into hand, particularly in the 70s, and they would get interviewed for documentaries. And then when it came out, the whole documentary would be about Peter Burring. He's this handsome guy with the Indiana Jones, a fedora.

He's got the British accent. He's a big game hunter. He just always stole their thunder. And it drove John Green absolutely bonkers his entire life. That and I think he called out that in some of Peter Byrne's books, he didn't even refer to them by name, right? No, they both is. Yeah, he never, John Green would never print.

that named Peter Byrne and he was books and in return, he did the, burn did the same. I think he refers them derisively as the Canadian journalist. And I'm not sure what he gave me. Yeah. He calls in his last autobiography, he wrote a few years ago. He actually does mention Bob Titmus. He calls him Bob Titmouse, which is actually a name that.

That's a René name, right? Yeah. And they coined that one way back during the Pacific Northwest expedition. I didn't know how that Renee and Bob Titmus just really did not like each other. Did you, were there certain resources that those interactions you found those in? Or was that pretty evident? One thing I took liberties in. I blatantly took liberties aren't was so I have the chapter called White's Motel is one of my favorite ones.

I have my niece read the book. She said that was her favorite chapter. It's actually very accurate. talking about a piece of historical gold. Andrew Gazzoli is another guy who had, he has his collection at Humboldt State University and buried within his, and I was to jump on this for a second.

I talk about throughout the book that Jerry Krue had a drawing, a trace of the tracks. That's actually in the collection. There's also all these old letters that people wrote Gonzoli from all over the country in 1958 that's in there. But anyway, I found a letter. There's a 10-page memo written by Betty Allen, who was another overlooked figure in Bigfoot history. So she was actually there, I believe it was November 15, 1959 is when all the Bigfoot Vanguard came.

They had a meeting at Wise Motel, headed by Tom Slick, right, laid out the plan for the Pacific Northwest expedition. And Betty wrote notes the entire time she was there, 10 pages worked, basically saying this is who's there, what was said. These were the comments. So a lot of that stuff that was actually, you know, I didn't make up. One thing I did make up is the exchange or the argument between, I just want to underscore how much they spies each other, which is, which was absolutely true.

That's interesting to know. Okay. Yeah, that was a very good scene for sure. And that's true. Jerry Krub, busting in at the end. That's all true. Man, that's awesome. Yeah, the old lady.

Cool. And that's absolutely true. And why is the motel is still there? It's called Bigfoot, Bigfoot Motel today. But it looks very similar to what it looked like in the late 1950s. In that cage, the Jim White's caged Bigfoot, the cage is still in the back parking lot. The mannequin's on the cage. Yeah, the cage is still there.

Oh, man. Yeah. I always want to, because I found out about the cage. I wish I could see it. And then one day I was at the Willow Creek Library going through the, Clamity Courier magazine. I went through, like, years, and I just turned over a page and there was a picture of it. I was like, yes, I finally saw it.

That's something I was going to ask you. Is that newspaper digitized at all? It's Clamity Courier, to my knowledge, is not. So I had to go to the library, and I just took pictures on my own iPhone of it. So, yeah, the Advance, the Agacy Advanced newspaper is not digitized either. so I had to pay a lot of, unfortunately, my research was during the pandemic. So I would have to like pay private researchers and go get copies of stuff for me. So I got all the, I got all the humble standard Humboldt Times newspapers, got all this

agency advance newspapers and claim the couriers. This is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real. We're all feeling a little digitally distracted. and time starved lately. We're craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense

of calm and connection back into yourself too. If you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you. With 75 years of expertise, miracle grow, takes the stress out of the process and makes it pure joy. And let me tell you what, I can confirm this from the garden I love spending time in outdoors in Los Angeles to my little potted plants where I grow herbs indoors in New York. I love working with plants. And I love Miracle Grow because whether I'm doing something in the soil or potting something in the apartment, Miracle Grow takes the best care of my plants, so my plants can help take care of me. And here's the big secret. Most people think water and sunlight are enough, but no, no, your plants actually need more to

truly thrive, whether it's starting with the right soil foundation or giving plants the boost they need to stay vibrant with plant food. Our friends at Miracle Grow have all the essentials to make growing simple and stress-free. Head to MiracleGrow.com to check out all of their easy-to-use products and start your growth journey today. The next three years, LA will welcome the world with major events unmatched by any destination. This moment is bigger than sports.

It's about the impact on our communities, businesses, and people. With the help of the Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment Commission Foundation Foundational Partners, Amgen, Archer Aviation, Kaiser Permanente, L.A. Tourism and Metro, we're investing in the L.A. community in inspiring civic pride. Together, let's show the world why we love L.A.

To learn more about the FIFA World Cup coming this June, Visit Los Angeles FWC26.com. Aging is real, and so are the benefits of new vital proteins collagen sparkling water, because around the age of 30, your body needs backup to keep your collagen up.

So get your daily glow up, now in three fresh flavors, strawberry blossom, lemon lime, and blood orange. Improved skin health in as little as 30 days thanks to collagen peptides? Cheers to that. So you can stay vital, stay you.

Visit vital. to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Yeah. Newspapers are private. Letters are my, is the best. But newspapers are great as well.

And nothing at top letters. There almost needs to be a Dustin Severs collection someday, I think, with all the resources that you've gotten together for this book. I mean, the calamity, that was just really, I didn't know a lot about that. But through your book, and you talked about how Ray Wallace just started writing these out-of-control letters to the newspaper and other. And he had some wild out-of-control claims. Do you think there was any truth to any of that? Or this is some wild stuff he was saying, yeah.

Yeah, even said he was involved with the patterns. Yeah, it's all absolutely ridiculous. And I'm not sure how serious he was when he said it. So I don't know. He's just an interesting fellow that Ray. walls. Yeah, absolutely. Will we have to wait until the second book to know if you think that Patterson Gimlin film is true or not? Yes, and I'm going to do my best. Keep someone of a neutral tone on that one as well. And yeah, speaking to the Clamity Courier, I just reminded me,

the editor was a guy named Barry Benny Carroll, was another overlooked figure. I never heard of the guy just discovered him through my own research. And he, when Betty, Allen left Humboldt County and went back to Alaska, I believe in 1965, he took over the Bigfoot beat in her stead. And I had this theory that I bought, me and Daniel Perez would have this competition going. I'm trying to figure out who wrote the October 25th, first article, 1967 of the Patterson film that was called Mrs. Bigfoot was film, so it was not a byline given. So I've been upset. He thinks this is this guy named Alistado. It may be I tend to disagree. So I've been obsessed trying to find out who it is. And Benny Carroll is one of my top suspects. And I actually found I got a list of every person who worked for the newspaper in 1967.

I found three of them that are still alive. And I was able to actually get them on the phone and talk to them. And every time it's like, yeah, we know what we're talking about. But I don't know who wrote it. Oh, man. It seems like a frivolous detail, but it's really not because he, he, according to the story, he calls cold on the night of October 20th, like around 9 o'clock from the Ranger Station in Willow Creek and relays a story and is pretty extensive story. And yeah, one of the ladies I spoke to, she was very young, obviously at the times that she's still alive. And she said that it must have been a sports writer because only a sports writer in the fall on a Friday, they would be reporting on the football game. So they would have answered the phone.

I was like, that's interesting. That's a really interesting detail. Yeah, because there's always theories that he was, I don't know if this true. That Patterson was in conclusion of somebody to write. I don't know if that's true. For some reason, I've always been obsessed with trying to find out who the heck wrote that darn are. I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why somebody was on the editorial staff

wouldn't get credit for what the article is on the front page. I asked her, that. She said, maybe they're embarrassed by it. So I don't know. It's just interesting that to this day, we don't know who wrote that very important, the first story ever about the film. It was written like hours.

It was written literally hours after the event allegedly occurred. Wow. were there while you were writing the book were there any things that you were trying to research that you just had you you couldn't find because it was like you tried to research it you couldn't find the resources or the trail was cold yeah I say there was some I can't think of any offhand

the one for the second book has to do with trying to find out the ghost writer for Mrs. Bigfoot was filmed. But yeah, I had a lot of roadblocks that I eventually broke through. So I feel like everything really came together in the end. Yeah, it's disappointing. Almost everybody right about is no longer alive. We've been so great to actually interview John Green or Renaudet. And that's why I think it's really important to get Jim McLaren's story on the record. But of course, he's probably around my dad's age. I think he's about 77, 78. He's in great health. He probably knows he lives in South America.

He's still trying to find creatures that people say don't exist. There's much smaller now. He's looking for Beatles as opposed to Bigfoot. That's interesting. So you were able to interview Jim for this? Oh, cool. Yeah, I actually sent him a copy of the book as well hoping he likes it. Nobody doesn't mind me calling him a hippie because he absolutely was a hippie.

Yeah. He's going to be much more prominently. He won't write much more prominently about him in the second book. a big biography written up about him as well as Al Hodgson. But it's basically the same group of people. That's why I think it's so cool about the Bigfoot story throughout this period. It's the same small fraternity of guys involved in from 58th. Throughout the history of the Bigfoot story, even the Patterson film.

René DeHendon owns the rights to Patterson film. He died. It was handed over to his two sons. So, yeah. And that was throughout the 70s. that is all about the Patterson film and to him really turn his focus away from being the bush to just acquiring the rights of Pattern, he got the right to Patterson's book, the film. He was obsessed with acquiring the legacy of Patterson's legacy.

I'm guessing that he got to a point, you know what? I'm never going to find one of these creatures. The chances of it happening is so slim. I'm not sure if they're still alive. maybe they went extinct. I think he got into a point where this is it. This is, it's not going to get any better in the passion film.

So if I want to be the guy ultimately who found Bookfoot, I think that's the best route they go is to acquire the rights of this film. And then you spent most of it as is later years, basically debunking by other researchers. So I'm sure you looked a lot into Renee DeHenden because it feels like you, anyone that you wrote about, you were really researching him. Did you find that he did a lot of traveling around the U.S. to different Bigfoot spots to investigate things?

Did you ever come up with any info about that? Or did he stick to out in certain areas? No, he did go all over the country. I know he spent a lot of time in Montana. Of course, his stomping grounds was the greater Harrison Hot Springs, those mountains, Garibaldi Park, that area. And he went up to the Great Bear, which is a fascinating place. He spent a lot of time there in the 60s.

And yeah, I think the 70s, I mean, he spent a lot of time in Montana. And like I said, he got to the point where he started turning his focus to Patterson film. And he spent a lot more time in the courtroom. He did it out in the bush. Right. He's a very interesting character. Your book has lit the fire under me. I'm in central Iowa, so I focus on the Iowa Bigfoot history stuff.

And allegedly, he did come out to Central Iowa to talk to some guys during the 70s about Bigfoot. Something that happened regarding Bigfoot out here, but I'm just trying to track down what that exactly was. And as the key players are either gone or extremely old at this time. So we'll see if I ever get the answers for that. Was there something that, let's say you had come into the topic before you started writing it and then out of when you finished the book, your thinking was totally different about a certain part of that history. Yeah, I go back to Peter Burns. You have all these guys wrote books or most of them did, and they really have these competing narratives.

and I went into it assuming that the animosity that DeHen and Titmus and Green had towards Byrne, which is out of jealousy, but the more research I did. I don't think Peter Byrne was a bad guy. I don't think he was a liar. I would use the phrase I apply to Ivan Sanders, and I was very economical with the truth, the embellished. But his books are really are just chock full of errors and just gross. inconsistencies. Particularly, he wrote that after Bob Titnes left the Pacific Northwest

expedition, they never heard from him again. He knows that's not true. Bob Titnus, in fact, continued a relationship with Tom Slick in which he ran the British Columbia expedition for two years. He was as close to Tom Slick as Peter Byrne was. So perhaps he was getting up there in years. And when he wrote those last books, perhaps that's the reason. I know as a research, I was just very frustrated reading his book because there's so many contradictions like he would tell. For example, when he tells a story about when he, for, they read the yak and yeti bar and Catmandu, and they get a letter from Tom Slick saying, telling him about Bigfoot. He has another telling of that story where he's in a cave and a chirp, a runner.

hands. Yeah, just, I don't. Okay. Yeah, a lot of the stories you can take with a grain of salt. But he was in fact, he was he, that guy went back to the 1940s. He started even before DeHenidon and Green was. He was hunting the Yeti before the shifting tracks came out. So that guy is as old school as you get. So he's definitely one of, he's on the mountain Rushmore without a doubt. Absolutely. As we we start to, you know, wind down, but I do have a final question for you. So you spent time out in that area, this area with Bluff Creek and Laos Camp and things of that. Do you think that there is still a Bigfoot presence in that area today? It doesn't appear to be. And I just say anybody's interested in Bigfoot. You got to make the pilgrimage to Bluff Creek. It really is a magical place. And I'm a little scared to see how much damage was done from the fire. So I guess I'll see why I go out there in a summary. But it's such an amazing place.

And like I said, all the historic spots are just right next to each other. I remember the first time I went up there. I went across the Notice Creek Bridge, which is right past Laos Camp. And I write about that. And there's actually inscribing the concrete. This is 1958. I remember just getting a chill. And chill ran down my spine when I read that.

So, yeah, Bluff Creek is a really magical place. And back in the 1950s, it really was the final frontier in America. Of course, this is before Alaska was admitted, you know, statehood. So at the right in the book, the 50s was the right time. And Bluff Creek was absolutely the right place for Bigfoot. Bigfoot was going to exist anywhere in the lower 48 in 1950s. That would be the spot. It is a magical place from what I've heard, what I've seen.

Hopefully someday, I will. be able to check it out. But Dustin, man, this has been such a fun chat about your book, The Bombedo's Snowman of California. I highly recommend everyone pick up a copy of this. Is best place to get it on Amazon still? That's the only place is being sold. Yeah, I always say I did.

I try to go with the traditional publisher, irreconcilable creative differences. So I had self-publishing. I ended up doing, I was acting with the directors cut. I was ready to edit a lot of the book. I knew if it was pitched to a general audience and went through a traditional publisher, I would have to really shrink it down. But when I knew I was going to self-publishing route,

I was like, the hell with it. I was going to leave it all in there and just have one big book. Since I probably be a niche book for Bigfooters, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. If this is the first time that you've heard about it, those that are listening, you need to pick it up if you're into Bigfoot history, if you're a nerd for Bigfoot, or if you just like a good read, it is a fascinating read, easy to read, but also tons of details is something for everyone in this book. But Dustin, thank you so much for coming

on. Is there a way that people can keep up to date with what you're doing and all that? I don't think so. Like I said, I anticipate around this time next year having that second book, ready to go. So I'm trying to promote it earlier next time. So I'm sure around the summer time you'll be hearing about the second book, I don't have a title for it yet. But yeah, it just basically picks up where the last one left off.

And as everybody knows, the Patterson film is the most interesting thing about the Bigfoot history. So, yeah. That's going to be wild, dude. I'm looking forward to it. But thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thanks, Jeremiah. Appreciate it.

This is fun. Here at Bigfoot Society, our goal is to provide a platform for those that have encountered Bigfoot to share their encounter in a safe and respected environment. But we need to hear your story. If you've experienced something that you just can't explain, please send me an email at Bigfoot Society at gmail.com. Then we can start the conversation. I know a lot of you have not shared your encounter at all. It's been 20 years, and it's time that you get this off your chest, and then you can get some well-deserved for rest because I know you haven't been sleeping. I understand what you're going through, and I appreciate every one of you listening.

This is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real. We're all feeling a little digitally distracted and time-starved lately. we're craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense of calm and connection back into yourself, too. If you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you.

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We're craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense of calm and connection back into yourself too. If you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you. With 75 years of expertise, Miracle Grow takes the stress out of the process and makes it pure joy. And let me tell you what, I can confirm this from the garden I love spending time in outdoors in Los Angeles to my little potted plants where I grow herbs indoors in New York. I love working with plants and I love Miracle Grow because whether I'm doing something in the

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Our friends at Miracle Grow have all the essentials to make growing simple and stress-free. Head to MiracleGrow.com to check out all of their easy-to-use products and start your growth journey today. The next three years, L.A. will welcome the world with major events unmatched by any destination. This moment is bigger than sports. It's about the impact on our communities, businesses, and people. With the help of the Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment Commission Foundation Foundational Partners, Amgen, Archer Aviation, Kaiser Permanente, L.A. Tourism and Metro, we're investing in the L.A. community

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Visit vital proteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat cure or prevent any disease. This is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real. We're all feeling a little digitally distracted and time start. lately. We're craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way

to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense of calm and connection back into yourself too. If you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you. With 75 years of expertise, Miracle Grow takes the stress. out of the process and makes it pure joy. And let me tell you what, I can confirm this from the garden I love spending time in outdoors in Los Angeles to my little potted plants where I grow herbs indoors in New York. I love working with plants.

And I love Miracle Grow because whether I'm doing something in the soil or potting something in the apartment, Miracle Grow takes the best care of my plants. so my plants can help take care of me. And here's the big secret. Most people think water and sunlight are enough, but no, no, your plants actually need more to truly thrive, whether it's starting with the right soil foundation or giving plants the boost they need to stay vibrant with plant food.

Our friends at Miracle Grow have all the essentials to make growing simple and stress-free. Head to MiracleGrow.com to check out all of their easy-to-use products and start your growth journey today. The next three years, L.A. will welcome the world with major events unmatched by any destination. This moment is bigger than sports. It's about the impact on our communities, businesses, and people. With the help of the Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment Commission Foundation Foundational Partners, Amgen, Archer Aviation, Kaiser Permanente, L.A. Tourism and Metro.

We're investing in the L.A. community and inspiring civic pride. Together, let's show the world why we love L.A. To learn more about the FIFA World Cup coming this June, visit Los Angeles FWC26.com. Aging is real. And so are the benefits of adding vital proteins collagen peptides to your daily routine. New vital proteins collagen sparkling water. Your daily glow-up now in three fresh flavors. Strawberry blossom, lemon, lime, and blood orange.

Improved skin health in as little as 30 days thanks to collagen peptides. Cheers to that. Or go with our classic collagen peptides. So you can stay vital, stay you. Visit vital proteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease. The next three years, L.A. will welcome the world with major events unmatched by any destination.

This moment is bigger than sports. It's about the impact on our communities, businesses, and people. With the help of the Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment Commission Foundation Foundational Partners, Amgen, Archer Aviation, Kaiser Permanente, L.A. Tourism and Metro, we're investing in the L.A. community and inspiring civic pride. Together, let's show the world why we love L.A. To learn more about the FIFA World Cup coming this June, Visit Los Angeles FWC26.com.

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