BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 102: Understanding How Your Personal Money Story Shapes Your Financial Future with Jean Chatzky

Episode Date: December 9, 2019

Jean grew up in a family where money wasn’t a big issue. Her parents saved for big purchases like vacations, but frugality was part of her everyday life. She graduated from college without any debt, and soon found a job - that she immediately regretted accepting. She moved quickly to change course, and ended up in a job that paid less than half of that first one - but was so much better for her.  A freelancing side job to supplement her income evolved into a full-time Journalism career with Smart Money magazine, which led to a 25+ year stint with the Today Show as their financial editor. But Jean wanted more. She created HerMoney, a place for women to learn about how to properly handle their finances. Jean knew that your money story is the root of your relationship with money. She created a place and space for you to recognize your money story - and figure out how to apply deep-seated lessons learned consciously and subsconsiously - to lead your best financial life! In this Episode We Cover: Jean's journey with money Her financial position before and after college How her financial habits changed The importance of prioritising decision making Her job on Smart Money Magazine What she learned in reporting women with money On HerMoney Happy Hour The outcomes of the conversations at Happy Hour that might surprise men The reason why couples are reluctant to talk about money How to start the conversation with a partner who doesn't want to talk about money The first thing a woman needs to do to start changing her financial situation The importance of prenup Links: BiggerPockets Money Podcast 04: Eliminating Over $30,000 in Debt Through Extreme Organization with Former State Trooper Rosemarie Groner BiggerPockets Money Podcast 24: Getting Financially “Naked” with Your Significant Other — With Erin Lowry BiggerPockets Money Podcast 81: The Basics of Investing with Erin Lowry from Broke Millennial BiggerPockets Money Podcast 39: From “Bad with Money” to Intentional Saving and Spending with Jamila Souffrant BiggerPockets Forums Modern Love - The New York Times Scott's Email Connect with Jean: Jean Chatzky's Website HerMoney HerMoney Newsletter HerMoney Podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 102, where we interview Gene Tatsky from her money and get her story of financial independence and tips for women to manage their money on their own as well as with their partner. Until we understand our money stories, until we deal with them and the fact that they are never going to go away, we may need strategies that help us work around them. We can't move forward. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my fantastic co-host Scott Trench. Scott and I are here to show you that wherever you are in your journey, you can begin rapidly moving towards a position of financial freedom capable of generating a great income, saving a huge percentage of that income, and setting

yourself up to make larger and larger investments. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business will help you build a financial position capable of launching yourself towards your Today we've got a very special guest, the famous and wonderful Gene Chatsky. Gene is the award-winning financial editor of NBC's Today Show, as well as the best-selling author of 11 books, including her most recent Women with Money, the Judgment-free Guide to Creating the Joyful, Less-Stressed, Purposeful, and Yes, rich life you deserve. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this

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Money podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be with you guys. So you've been teaching money to people in general and women specifically on the Today Show for 20 plus years. 25 years. 25 years. You have a new book out called Women with Money. And in your book, you talk about money stories, which are the unconscious way that you're experienced with money from a very early age, shapes your lifelong relationship with money. So, Jean, this actually kind of ties really well in with our show. I want to hear your money story.

Where does your journey with money begin? So I grew up in a household where money was not really an issue. I mean, we had enough. We didn't have an excessive amount. My father was a college professor. My mother taught everything from second grade to a gifted and talented program for high school students. And I do remember a lot of frugality. I remember going on a trip to Disney World.

And before we went, we sat down and we opened the family piggy bank where I had been watching my father put silver dollars and silver half dollars and occasionally a piece of holding money for a year. years and years and years. And we cracked it open and basically counted it all up. You know, the parents and the kids sitting on the floor of the house and just sort of remember the thrill that everybody got realizing there was enough in here that had been saved to sort of cover our entry fees to the park. At the same time, when we drove cross-country, we didn't go out for lunches. We would go to a grocery store. My mom would get a loaf of bread and a thing of Oscar Meyer. bologna and make sandwiches and we'd picnic out of the back of the car. And I think I just, I, you know, I learned that money was not something to be toyed with, that you had to be

careful with money. And that was a feeling that stayed with me for a really, really long time, which didn't mean I didn't lose my way with money eventually. I mean, I went to college. at a place where there were a lot of kids with a lot of money. I overspent on my first credit card. I didn't really take the lessons of you have to save for tomorrow to heart. I bombed my way out of a 401K very early on. And so I think my overarching money story was I knew enough to hold on really tightly to it, but I didn't really understand how to make the most.

of it until I started down this path of trying to help others by reporting on personal finance, and that's how I learned to help myself. When you were in college with that, what was kind of your financial position entering college, and how did you end up when you left? I was very, very lucky that I did not have student debt when I went to college. I did have the responsibility for paying for all of my extracurriculars. So that was the deal that my parents cut with me and my brothers. They would pay tuition room and board.

We would pay for everything else. So I worked all the way through high school. I worked in college. I did everything from babysit to teaching Sunday school. And I had to, you know, I definitely had those days of checking my bank account and seeing, you know, oh my God, there's $10 there. I better do something because I certainly wasn't going to call my parents and say, I need money.

When I came out, I think I felt like I just needed more. And it led to a terrible mistake that I was really lucky to be able to recover from. When I graduated from college, I got two job offers. And I throughout college had been really intent on a career as a journalist. I had found my way to the school paper, my favorite professor taught magazine writing. I had internship after internship after internship. My resume was great for journalism. But at the same time, there were a lot of kids at my college who were very pre-professional.

They were going into consulting or to Wall Street or to law school or to med school. There was a lot of on-campus interviewing. And so I decided I would just throw my resume into some piles and I got some on-campus interviews. I got two job offers when I came out of college. One was at a magazine in New York for $12,000 a year. And one was in a retail management training program for $24,000 a year. And I had absolutely no interest in retail, but I took the job for the money. And I knew on day two of working in this job that I had just made a terrible, terrible mistake.

It took me about three months to get out of it. I had moved to Hartford, Connecticut, where this job was. I had a roommate. I bought a car. I mean, I had gone all in, and I had to get rid of the car, get rid of the apartment, get another job in New York, which ironically paid $11,500 a year, not the full $12,000 that I had gotten the first time. But I just sort of put my tail between my legs and did it. And then I got a second job to support myself while I was living in New York because there was no other way to make it even with a little help for my parents. So out of college, it sounds like, you mentioned you overspent on your first credit card.

Was that in relation to the first job that you got in that time? Or was that in college? No, I got the card right of senior year coming out of college. I didn't use it much in college. I don't know if I even used it at all in college. If I did, I knew enough to pay it off. But I got to New York. I wanted to look good to go to my magazine job.

I wanted to dress like the other people. I did. I had very quickly racked up about a half-year salary on credit card debt. But simultaneously, I also was doing some freelance writing, and I was putting some money into a savings account. So I was paying, I don't know, 18.9% interest on the credit card, earning maybe 6% at the time on the savings account. Clearly, the math wasn't working,

but it was, again, a product of that need for safety. I felt a lot safer having that money in the bank than I did repaying that credit card, even though it made absolutely no financial sense. Got it. And so once you change jobs to the $11,500 job, which I think you mentioned was ironic because of the first $12,000 a year job offer, did anything change about your financial habits or what did the things continue for the next couple of years or what evolved from there? My financial habits started to change with, I mean, I got on a budget. I understood what I could afford to spend on rent, on food, on pretty much everything. I did get a second job that paid hourly a lot more than my first job. And I was getting with the program very slowly. I didn't really understand the program though until I started. I started.

reporting on personal finance, working at Smart Money Magazine, which was a good half decade later. Got it. So I love that, I don't want to say mistakes. I mean, you're Gene Chatsky. Oh, there's so many mistakes. Perfect. But to make this mistakes early, you can, you can recover. And I want people who are listening right now to hear that, yeah, your financial life may not be perfect, but that doesn't mean it's, you know, oh, well, I guess. I'm never going to be perfect. I should just stop. Well, what I actually want people to know more is that even if you are making mistakes later or you have some sort of a setback later, you can recover because I got divorced at 40.

And I felt like I was starting over for so many things. All of a sudden, I was going to be responsible for paying for college for my kids, half of college for my kids. And at that point, it was not that far away. And I didn't have any money saved for that. And I had to, because my game plan with my ex-husband was we had a 15-year mortgage, we were going to pay off the house, and then the money that we were putting into the mortgage would pay for college. And that made perfect sense at the time until we split up.

And then it didn't make any sense anymore. So I very quickly opened 529, started saving a much greater percentage of my income. made sure that I got myself back on track for retirement. And I did all of that at 40. So it's not, you can recover no matter when those setbacks or mistakes happen. You just have to be thoughtful about the plan that you put together in order to do that. And if I've learned anything, we've had on my podcast, which is called her money, we've had over the past couple of years, a number of people who are highly,

involved in the fire movement. And they are saving these immense percentages of their income. And they're doing it by being crafty. You know, they're doing it by being very thoughtful about what it is they want to accomplish. They're doing it by keeping their eyes on the bigger goal. And that's the real point. I don't think there's any magic to this. I think that you just have to make a decision that it's important enough to you to prioritize it. Love it. We hear that every single, almost every single episode, that it's just a matter of prioritizing, decision-making,

all that kind of stuff. And we also hear that there's usually some sort of catalyst for that change. Like, I heard a story, I heard I had an event. And I'm wondering what that was for you. Did that have anything to do with the move to Smart Money magazine? I think it had everything to do with the move to Smart Money magazine and the fact that I very quickly ended up on television telling other people what to do with their money. So, you know, when you're telling other people what to do with their money, you better be doing it too, right?

Because otherwise... I can relate. Right? Otherwise, like, you're total fraud, right? You're disingenuous. I mean, I learned, I think what makes me maybe different and certainly a little bit approachable is that I didn't come to this as any sort of an expert. Right? I just learned on the job. I was lucky enough. I mean, the thing that I think many people feel overwhelmed by in the world of finance is the amount of choice that we have these days. I mean, whether you're choosing a mutual fund, whether you're choosing a credit card, whether you're trying to buy an insurance policy, there are just thousands of choices out there. And my job at Smart Money Magazine was to sit at a computer all day. and talk to really, really smart people on the phone about what the best choices were

and the best ways to filter those choices, how to make them. And then I could make them for me, but I could also explain to other people how to make them. It was just writing a term paper again and again and again and again on a different subject. And that was a huge gift to me personally. I mean, Mindy, you asked about my money story. I have had enough therapy to understand that it is completely not a coincidence that I ended up writing and reporting about money. Like, I saw that this was a problem in my own life and I was going to fix it. And this was, these were my skills, right?

My skills were writing and reporting. So I just, I mean, I don't think I thought about this consciously at all at the time. In fact, I know I didn't. But that was exactly the behind the curtain formula or thought process that was going on. Well, I think what makes you so successful and your approach so successful is you're not an expert. You are not using those difficult to understand financial terms that talk way up here when everybody else is down here. You use real words that real people can understand. and you make it, like, it's not hard to figure out your finances,

but it is hard to understand what, you know, Ben Stein from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It's hard to understand him when he's so boring. It's hard to understand, you know, I don't want to talk smack about people, but Jim Kramer yells at you and then you feel bad when somebody's yelling at you for making mistakes. I don't even know you. why am I going to listen to you when you're yelling at me? It's, you know, having, not being an expert, I think is like the best part about you.

Not being an expert in the beginning. Now you're an expert. Now you absolutely have lived it and learned it. And, you know, these are the, you use American words, easy to understand words that put it into people's minds. And, oh, it isn't that hard. I can do it. I don't have to decipher all this garbage first. Right. And I, you know, I kind of felt like, I mean, I still feel like if I don't understand it, then I'm not going to talk, you know, I'm not going to explain it. I'm going to, there are things where I really have to work hard to understand them first. And initially, when I, when I first started working on television, I don't know how well you remember Smart Money Magazine, but the stories were six or eight pages long in most cases. And that is far too much information.

to talk about in three minutes on television. So I used to go through this process of just crossing things out and figuring out, OK, where's the essence? And over time, it became easier for me to get to what's important and what's the window dressing. But it certainly took a little while. And I do want to just one more time, come back to the money story part of things,

Because I think for all of us, what I learned in reporting women with money is that until we understand our money stories, until we deal with them and the fact that they are never going to go away, we may need strategies that help us work around them, we can't move forward. So for a woman like me who is typical in my overwhelming need for safety and security before I can do other things with my money, I needed to understand why that was and to be able to make myself feel like I was safe enough and secure enough so that I could do what I needed to do, which was put my money to work so that it would take care of me and my kids down the road. That brings up an interesting point, the safety part. In your book, you do a lot of, like, research as a journalist. And you talk to a lot of different women. And the overarching theme that women want out of their money is safety.

And women also, I mean, people in general, but women specifically are reluctant to talk about money. And in your book, you have this idea that, like, it's. I don't want to, like, it's so simple, but it's so brilliant. And I think the most brilliant things are so simple. It's the her money happy hour. And last night at my friend Van's birthday, I brought up this idea of having this, this happy hour where you talk about money. We're getting together to talk about money with our friends.

And, you know, I brought up this idea and everybody there was like, yeah, we should totally do that. You'll have to give me your address, Mindy, and I will send you a deck of cards. so that you can have your own her money happy hours. So when I was starting to do the reporting for women with money, I figured I would just gather groups of women. I travel a lot for work. I do some speaking.

And I figure I would just gather crowdsourced groups of women when I went different places because it's very important when you live in New York like I do to get out of New York. You can't just have like a New York perspective or an urban perspective. You have to hit different places in the country. So it crowdsourced these gatherings. And originally I had this zip block bag full of little pieces of paper that had on them leading questions about money. And we would just go around the room

and people would draw out a piece of paper and read the question and start talking. And the idea was that everybody would chime in. You know, they're pretty universal questions, but also questions designed to get a conversation. started, like, you know, what's your biggest money fear or what's the thing about money that's holding you back or is it okay to hide money from your spouse or your partner in your underwear drawer? And we would continue these conversations and eventually we packaged it up and we have an actual

deck of cards so that people can hold a her money happy hour. But you open some wine because wine definitely helps. And these discussions are, they're just liberating. They give us a forum and a format to have these conversations that nobody gives us permission to have. I am so excited. I could kiss you right now for saying that because they are like I was, I was reading the money secret I've been keeping is X. Not only do they allow you to have these conversations with other people. They make you look inside. I spend money because X. Oh, I spend money because I'm feeling inadequate in another portion of my life. Hey, let's go fix that.

Because, you know, money's tied to a lot of different things. I just love this idea. Now, do you have any tips for these happy hours? Should somebody plan to lead it? Should they just, you know, hey, ladies, let's get together. Should they send the questions out in advance? No. Ooh, okay.

Do not send the questions out in advance. It's actually helpful. Like you should invite, I've had them with anywhere from half a dozen people to I've had 50. I mean, you know, I can facilitate a big, big group. But if you're going to do this on your own, I'd say anywhere from like eight to 12 people is probably great. And you should invite a friend and then they should bring a friend that not everybody knows. It's better to do this with people who have different experiences. So yes, you can do it with all of your best friends, but sometimes strangers facilitate more

interesting and more freewheeling conversations because you don't feel like you have to hold back at all. Do not send the questions out in advance. That gives people far too much time to think about it. Don't worry too much about food because in my experience, very few people eat. You can have a little bit of snacks, but really the conversation is the thing. Open again, some wine, some drinks, whatever it is. you're partial to. And one person should, you know,

whoever puts it together should start by facilitating. And the job of the facilitator is, I was always taught as a journalist to give a little, to get a little. So the job of the facilitator is to chime in and give enough details, enough real details of their own life and their own, you know,

embarrassments and failings and wishes and dreams and hopes to get everybody else feeling comfortable doing the same thing. Have you ever done this with men as well to contrast it? I have had some happy hours where people have brought men and they sometimes inhibit the conversation a little bit. I have never actually invited men. But maybe I should, you know, maybe we should do couples happy hours.

I tend to base my experiences on sometimes when I go out and I do speeches, I usually leave about 15, 20 minutes for Q&A at the end. And when I'm with a group of all women, the conversation, the questions light right up, and they are never ending. And when I'm in a mixed group, they are really slow, the men dominate, and I get really frustrated.

So sounds terrible. No, it sounds like real life. So I haven't. But some of my friends in their book groups do a once a year couple's book. Maybe we should do that too. What are some of the things, because as a man, I understand some of the things you're talking about and why that Danielic might come up. But what would be some of the outcomes of conversations at these happy hours that might surprise men that we're not thinking of? What, what I, I mean, the outcomes are often that people get more involved in, in the things, you know, they're often the, the impetus to do the thing that you've been waiting to do. So they can be the impetus to get a will. If you've been like holding back on getting a will or naming guardians for your kids, I've seen that to start tracking your spending to look at your 401K to find a therapist. I mean, I mean, you know, there are, it's not unusual to have tears and for people to get really emotional. But what's wonderful is that the other women, even if their strangers, are incredibly supportive and non-judgmental.

My website on my podcast, we say that we are the judgment-free zone. And I really mean that. Like, I do not, I've made, as I've acknowledged to you guys, so many boneheaded mistakes with my own money, I am certainly not going to judge anybody else. But I think we all work way too hard. And this field is too confusing for us to be like on some high horse. We all do the best that we can. We're all able to do it better tomorrow than we're doing it today.

If we want to think about it that way, but don't judge my money and I won't judge yours. I love that. And I love that like I think that should be part of the invitation to the her money happy hour. Hey, this is a judgment-free zone. We're going to talk about money. And, you know, if you're thinking about having her money happy hour ladies, think about how you can shut down someone if they come and they, you know, start being judged you. Wow, you spent how much on a shirt?

Doesn't matter. It's not your money. That's right. That's right. It's on the box, Mindy. It's on the box. Ground rules, you are in the vault. What happens in her money happy hour stays in her money happy hour.

and this is a judgment-free zone. I love it. I love it. Now, are those available for everybody? They are, they will shortly be available on our website for everybody. Okay, perfect. I'm not sure they'll quite be up by them, but if somebody wants them, if you just send me a note at jeanchatsky.com, we're in the process of getting this done. So if you, not at jeanchatsky.com, if you send me a note to jeanathehrmoney.com, we'll make sure that you get on the list to get the notification. Oh, perfect.

And we will have all of these links that Jean mentions in the future at biggerpockets.com slash money show 102. But what I was going to say is this episode is airing on December 9th. Start thinking about the parties you want to have in maybe not in the holidays, maybe in January. You know, we've got New Year's resolutions are coming up. You want to fix your money. That's a huge resolution for a lot of people. start by having a her money happy hour. Talk to your friends, talk to their friends, and just start the

conversation. I think this is so important. And, you know, so many people don't talk about it. Let's make a decision right now to do this, to start talking about money. And speaking of talking about money. You talk in your book, Women with Money, you talk about and encourage couples to have money dates. And this is a thread that has popped up over and over on our shows. It seems that the most financially successful couples are always on the same page. Rosemary Groner from way back in episode four, Aaron Lowry from episode 24, and again in episode 81, Jamila Sufront from episode 39, they all have money dates with their spouse, with their significant but couples are typically so reluctant to talk about money, which is literally the number one thing

that couples fight about. Having regular money conversations can really help you focus on your end goal and show that you're both on the same team. It's not a competition. You're married. You're on the same team. Having these regular conversations can help write a ship that's kind of veering off in the wrong direction. Why do you think couples are so reluctant to talk about money? And how can we start the conversation with a partner who doesn't want to have it? I think we're reluctant. And I got to say two things. First of all, I hate the term money date. I think it just, I mean, I date is like, I don't know, but I do agree. It's important to regularly talk with your spouse or your partner about money. And my husband and I do schedule time to talk about money. And we do it because

we're reluctant. And so actually, he's less reluctant than I am. I tend to be the one dragging my heels on this because when you marry somebody, I mean, we have this impression that you marry somebody and they're like all of a sudden you're the same person and you want this. My daughter, she's 22. She likes to say, oh, we're the same person. Well, no, you're not the same person, right? You want different things in life. And you grew up with different money stories, different money histories. You probably have different goals.

You have different ways of dealing with stress. And those things are probably what attracted you to your partner to begin with. And so to expect that the minute that you walk down the aisle, all of a sudden, your goals and dreams are just going to line up like little soldiers is not going to happen. You have to talk about what you want. And then you can go back and you can say, okay, how do we use our money in order to get those things that we now agree that we want? and what are the things that are standing in our way of making these things happen. I also think it's really important, and you didn't ask this question, but I'll answer it anyway,

that you give your spouse and your partner or your partner a little bit of financial room, some freedom to do the things that they want to do with their money. I mean, I like to shop. I particularly like to shop for clothes. my husband likes to see really arcane plays that I don't have any interest in seeing, right? And if he wants to spend his money on that or on visiting every baseball stadium in the United States, and I want to spend my money on, you know, a new sweater, we should both be allowed to do that within reason as long as it's not sabotaging our goals.

And so giving your spouse or your partner room to do some things that they want to do as individuals without asking permission, I think is really essential. I could not agree more. That is a fantastic piece of advice. So do you have separate gene-only bank account where you put in, you know, X and then that's yours to spend however you want. You don't have to. You know, I like that idea because, you know, then it's not, well, we agreed, but then

he sees this, why did you spend $750 at Sex Fifth Avenue? we already talked about this. You don't even see that I spent $750 at Sakspa Avenue. I mean, we have, so we're a second marriage. I should make that clear after I got divorced. I got married again. We both came to this relationship with pretty well-formed financial lives. So we have yours, mine, and ours accounts.

We each have our own checking and savings accounts, and then we have a house account and a house savings account. And we put into that account the money for the things that we are going to do together. We fund it regularly based on a percentage of our respective incomes, the same percentage. And that's how we sort of split things up. You know, I earn more than he does. So my percentage is higher than his percentage. Okay.

You said that you both have well-formed financial lives before you got married. did you talk about money before you got married? Oh, yes. Oh, okay. Okay. That's... You know, he has two kids. I have two kids.

He had a job with a pension and a 401K. I had a pension in a house or a 401k in a house. Yeah, we talked about it and we got a pre-up. And you have to get a pre-up. You know, if you're coming into another relationship where you've got assets, especially if you've got kids, if you've got kids, if you've got a business, if you're expecting an inheritance. I get a little annoyed at people who like get scared of the pre-up.

The pre-nup is no big deal. It's just, it's a piece of paper. You do it. It takes a couple of hours. We basically sat down and agreed on what we wanted in our pre-up and then had two different lawyers review it and make sure that it passed the fairness test. And they drew it up and we've not looked at it since. Yeah.

Aaron Lowry had a great way of putting this, I think on episode 81, the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, where she said, you are already signing a pre-up when you get married in a state because you're agreeing to abide by the laws that govern the divorce in that state. So your question when you're doing this is, do I want the state laws and all the complexities and that go along with that? Or do I want our rules that we've agreed on to govern this? And I think that's a really good way to look at it if you're trying to frame that question or it's difficult. as a man, I can say it's very difficult to discuss that as the man. I think this might be one of those issues that's a little harder to bring up from this side. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know what, I bet you're right, because it probably is looked at as one of those documents that was used historically to take advantage of women who were not coming to the relationship with the more

likely to be greater earnings trajectory. But I do think now with, I mean, the percentage of women who are the primary breadwinner is now almost 40 percent. We're waiting to get married and have kids until much later. And so it makes more and more sense for more and more people. Yeah. So I've been married for, I've got to do math, I think 17 years, 18 years. Scott is not yet married but newly engaged. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. My husband brought up the idea of a pre-nup. And, you know, this was a hundred years ago when we didn't have two dimes to rub together. What are we saving? What are we protecting from each other? But when he presented it, I heard him say, well, we might get divorced. And my not as financially evolved mind was very offended that he would even bring this up. Why

are you asking for a pre-up, you clearly just know that this is going to end a divorce. So I was so angry that he brought it up. He dropped the conversation and never brought it up again. And until Aaron said that, you already have a pre-up. It's the divorce laws in your state. That really made sense to me. But, you know, how do you get past this typically female thought, oh, you're just looking at divorce? How can you get over that? Well, I think you need to understand it's just not about that. And maybe you can't get past it. But understanding that half of all marriages, depending on whose statistics you're looking at, do end in divorce, you're protecting yourself as well.

Yes. I love the way that Aaron phrased it. You already have one. Right. Whether you know it or not, you already have a pre-up. So put in the pre-nup what you want. And it's not just protecting you in the case of divorce. It's protecting you in the case of death.

So, you know, it really is making sure that assets move the way that you want them to move. And I think it's just part of modern life. Yeah. One thing that's a kind of derivation of this topic, and you mentioned this earlier, you have yours, ours, and mine bank accounts and all that kind of stuff. Was that also something you discussed prior to getting married? or is that something that you evolved or how did you come up with that general structure? Well, we, it's sort of evolved.

I mean, when we first got married, we just had yours and mine. And then it was clear that it would be easier that if there were worth some things that we could pay for together, not just the house, because we could have, you know, it was easier to write one check for the mortgage and one check for utilities. And we got a joint credit card as well, and we pay that. out of the house account. It was just easier. I didn't like, this is your turn to pay for dinner. This is my turn to pay for dinner. I just felt kind of weird and unromantic, especially when we were going out with other couples. So we got a joint credit card and it evolved to be that. And now,

you know, we're thinking about merging more things. My husband is retired and he stopped. He's doing some consulting, but he retired from his corporate job like a year and a half ago. And we're thinking maybe that'll be easier going into the future. So I think in the process, it's an evolution. And in the book, in Women with Money, I actually have a list of about a dozen different ways that couples manage their money together. And they all are working ways.

They're all ways that the couples featured are happy with. I did that intentionally. Because, again, I think this is just one of those things. When you find a system that works for you, you use that system. And then you don't have to talk to the outside world about it. If you've got in-laws who are critical of what you're doing in your life, they don't get to judge this.

You close ranks and you take care of yourselves as a couple. Yes. And what works for you only has to work for you. And if it works for both of you, that's the end of who it has to work for. I love that. And what I'm hearing, the overarching theme of this whole thing,

is communication. Yeah. I don't know what Gene Chatsky is thinking until I ask her. I don't know what Carl Jensen is thinking until I ask him. That's my husband. So if I want him to know something, I have to tell him because he can't read minds. Your husband can't read minds. Scott, spoiler alert, Virginia cannot read mine.

So if you want her to know something, you have to tell her. And Virginia, if you want Scott to know something, you have to tell him too. There was a really, really great modern love column in the New York Times over the past weekend about a woman who was just getting angrier and angrier and angrier because her husband left a shirt out. He left a shirt, you know, just unfolded on some dresser in the middle of the room where it didn't belong. And she decided that she was going to take a stand and not put it away. And it sat there for eight months when she did not put it away. And she just got angrier and angrier and angrier.

And I thought there is so much, you know, until eventually he put it away because he finally noticed it. And he pointed out that he had also put away the socks that she left hanging out on the top of the dryer, which she hadn't noticed. Right. Unless we tell people what's going on in our minds, they just aren't going to know. Yep. Absolutely. 100% agree. There's a lot to think about from that story, actually. Yeah. Okay.

It is now time for the famous four questions. These are the same four questions that we ask of all of our guests. Jean, are you ready? I am ready. Okay. What is your favorite finance book? My favorite finance book is probably, this is a hard one because I have a lot of famous, of favorite finance books.

The one I go back to as a resource all the time is Jane Bryant-Quins, making the most of your money. I don't think anybody's ever, Yeah. I've never read that one. That's awesome. Jane was a role model for me. I'm lucky enough to know her.

And she is just a fabulous reporter. Nothing gets by her. And it was a, you know, it was a really important book at the time. And still is. I'm going to have to check that out. What was your biggest money mistake? The biggest was probably cashing out that 401k early on.

I've gone back. I've added up how much money that was. would have been worth. It was not pretty. Oh, yeah, that's not always the best choice to go back and put a dollar figure on your mistake. No, no, but you kind of, you know, you have to sometimes. Yeah. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Say 15% of everything. If you do that from the day you start until the day you're finished working, you will be just fine. And by the way, it can include matching dollars.

Oh. Love it. So easy, so simple. You don't have to look at the budget real first. You have to look at your income. Exactly. And then you know what to do. All right.

Well, do you have a joke today? A favorite joke, do you like to tell at parties? You know, I did not come prepared with a joke. I apologize. But I'm told that you get some bad jokes from some of your listeners and you can just sub one in for me. Absolutely. Cool.

How many? How many tickles does it take to make an octopus laugh? Ten tickles. Tenticles? Tenticles. Why? Oh, yes. Tenticles.

Tenticles. Like the tentacles. Tenticles. Tenticles. Okay, I get it. See, they're terrible. Scott does this all day long. That's true, yes.

I enjoy these little, these horrible dad jokes, these groaners. All right, Jean, where can people find out more about you? At hermoney.com. And if you're not receiving our free newsletter or not signed up for the podcast, if you just go to hermoney.com slash sign up, we'll get you on the list. Awesome. Okay, the book is called Women with Money, the Judgment Free Guide to Creating the Joyful, Less Stress, Purposeful, and Yes, Rich, Life that You Deserve.

Gene, thank you so much for your time today. This was a lot of fun. It was fun for me too. Thanks for having me. Okay. And we will talk to you soon. Okay, bye. All right, that was Gene Chatsky.

Mindy, what did you think? Oh, my goodness. Did I fan girl too much over her? It's just such... No, you fan girl, the perfect amount. It's just so much fun to talk to somebody that you've been following for years. And I read her book, Women with Money. I love...

Like, it's just, she wrote the book for me. I mean, other people can read it too, but she wrote that book for me. And it was fantastic. Like everything she's saying, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. The Her Money Happy Hour, I am so excited to host one. We have a women's real estate meetup here in Denver that I attend. And I'm going to reach out to Marjorie who runs it and ask her if she would like to have a Her Money Happy Hour.

So once I get those cards from Gene, thank you, Jean. and just ask those questions because I really think that that's so important in starting the conversation about money. Yeah, absolutely. It was eye-opening to hear that when there's a mixed group that men dominate the conversation. You know, it's not, I don't think it came as a huge surprise, but it was certainly eye-opening just to kind of feel, hey, this is important that women have a opportunity to have these discussions just with other women. And I think, you know, it sounds like following some of the guidelines that she suggested might help people open up. So Scott's email address is Scott at Biggerpockets.com. Feel free to let him know that it is not at all eyeopening to you, ladies, that men dominate the conversation. I think that that is, I'm going to defend Scott and say that this is not a position of sexism or chauvinism or anything like that.

He's just, that's a position of innocence. Ladies, I am not at all surprised. It was not eye opening at all that Jean said that men dominate the conversation because that has, been my experience. I don't want to say that's a bad thing, but it kind of is a bad thing. Like it doesn't give you a chance to speak your mind when somebody else is already, you know, talking over you. So I will say that if that is also your experience, start a women's meetup, start a her money meetup, start a your money meetup, start a ladies talk about money. And, you know, as Jean said, sometimes people will bring their spouses. If you don't want,

to have men at the meetup, make that clear in the meetup invitation. Hey, this is for women to talk about money. Don't bring your boys with you. But yeah, sorry, Scott. No, no, absolutely. Again, I don't think it was surprising. It's just something you need to keep hearing as a man that this is a struggle that women go through. It just needs to continue to be front and center. And that's helpful because that allows me to keep that perspective front of mind. Sometimes you can forget if you're a man, that this is something that maybe it's a little harder for a woman to talk about or for women in general to discuss. Yes. And I think in general, it's difficult for everybody to discuss, but for women specifically, and I'm not sure why. And I live in this weird little

bubble where I've been a part of this personal finance media space for so long that it's not weird. I'll meet somebody. I'm like, oh, how much did you pay for your house? What did you pay for your car? Did you buy it new? Did you buy it use? And, and something, Sometimes I get these looks. I'm like, oh, I should tone that down because I just met you. And why would you share your financial information with me? No, but lots of really great tips. It was really nice to hear Gene's money story. I don't know that I've ever heard her exact money story. You know what was nice is that she made mistakes too. She is not perfect. She messed up her credit card at first. And she cashed out a 401k that she wishes she did. not. But I love what she said. These mistakes don't have to define the rest of your life. You can recover from these mistakes. So if you're listening and you've made a big mistake or even a small mistake that you feel is a big mistake, just know that you can recover. Absolutely. Okay, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. From episode 102 of the Bigger Pockets Money

podcast with Gene Chatsky, I am Mindy Jensen and he is Scott Trench and we We don't have anything clever, so goodbye. Bye-bye.