BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 107: Choosing Side Hustles (& Happiness!) Over Full-Time Employment with Financial Panther

Episode Date: January 13, 2020

Financial Panther (Kevin) went to law school, graduated from law school, and took a job as an attorney. Attorneys make a lot of money, right? So, with all this income potential, why is he doing side hustles that pay him significantly less? Happiness. Being an attorney didn’t make Kevin happy. In fact, it made him decidedly unhappy. He changed jobs several times but in the end decided being a lawyer simply wasn’t for him. So, he left the field to pursue fun things that he liked doing. Kevin loves to be outside. He lives near a university in a large city. He loves dogs. Put that all into a shaker, and out comes Kevin 2.0. Kevin 2.0 takes dogs for walks during lunchtime. He gets out of his downtown office (he makes himself go to a co-working space so he accomplishes things every day) and delivers meals to office workers who can’t get away. Kevin walks dogs around the downtown area for their owners who can’t get away at lunchtime to take them out. Kevin charges scooters overnight, and on his way home, he delivers even more meals. Best of all? Kevin gets to spend time outside almost every single day. He does what he CHOOSES to do, regardless of what it pays. Financial freedom isn’t about quitting your job. It's about living your best life, which Kevin 2.0 is now doing. In This Episode We Cover: Kevin's journey with money How he started learning about money His position when he got his first paycheck The differences between his salary at the big law firm versus at the non-profit job How Kevin and his wife handle student loan debt How he generate his income in spite of being unemployed Kevin's side hustles The reason why he does side hustles instead of doing law-related jobs What his day and night looks like while doing his side hustles Tips on reselling things And SO much more! Links from the Show Rover.com Airbnb Postmates DoorDash Food Delivery Uber Eats Grubhub Wag! Become a Bird Charger Bird Charger and Lime Juicer - Financial Panther Craigslist Facebook Marketplace eBay Mad Fientist BiggerPockets Money Podcast 20: The Simple Path to Wealth—Index Funds Explained with JL Collins BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Money Survey Check the full show notes here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/moneyshow107 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 107, where we interview Kevin Haugh from Financial Panther and get his story of financial independence. It only takes up a lot of time if you're like really going out of your way to do it. But if you're like kind of incorporating it into the stuff you're already doing, then it really doesn't feel like you're like adding hours to your day. So it's like if you're walking a dog during your lunch break, does that count as you working a half hour?

Or like was that like time that would have been spent doing nothing anyway, right? Same with like my commute home. It's like if I'm doing delivery on my way home, is that work or is that like I'm just getting paid to go home? Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me as always is my fantastic co-host, Scott Trench. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. And show you that by following the proven steps, you can put yourself on the road to early financial freedom and get money out of the way so you can lead your best life.

wherever you are in your financial or life journey, you can begin rapidly moving towards a position capable of generating a great income, saving a huge percentage of that income, and setting yourself up to make larger and larger investments on your way to financial freedom. And whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business will help you put yourself in a position capable of launching yourself towards this dreams. Scott and I are super excited to announce that we have a new Facebook group. Go to Facebook.com slash groups slash BP money to join. And we would like to make sure that we are giving you the show that you want to listen to. We're thinking hard about ways to make this show even

better. And we really want your feedback. So if you would take five minutes out of your day and go to biggerpockets.com slash money survey, there's a few questions to answer. It's a very quick thing. And that way it helps us make the show what you're looking for. Please do join that Facebook group. We love just chatting about whether it's the show, general money topics or whatever, or even just terrible jokes. We'll be in it and lively and engaging in there. And we'd love to chat with you guys and get to know you a little better.

Well, I will say that 50% of us like the jokes. 50% of us like the jokes. That's right. And if you have a question. Well, the dental pun off, you'll see why that's relevant later in the show today. Okay, so we'll drill those into you. Brace yourselves. All right, before we bring on Kevin, the financial panther, you know the drill.

Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress.

Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place.

So every decision actually moves in a needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool. that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockets at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun?

Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow, every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out

of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D.com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leaner Stronger for Fitness.

The Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible. com slash BP money. Kevin, the Financial Panther, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

I'm so excited you're here today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I am really interested in getting your money story because you are a licensed. Is it licensed attorney? Practicing attorney? How do you say that properly? Yep. So I was a practicing attorney for five years.

Now I'm still a licensed attorney, but I don't practice anymore. Okay. at all. At all. I don't practice at all. Do you have any sort of income? I do. It comes from like my own things I'm doing.

Okay. Okay. So you don't have like a real job. Right. I'm like a bum now. Okay. Okay. Oh great.

Oh, so welcome to the financial panther, unemployed bum show. Kevin. Exactly. Kevin, tell us where your journey with money begins. Yeah. So for me, You know, I come from a family with two immigrant parents, and so they both came here.

Both are not, like, college educate or anything. My dad owned a Chinese restaurant, like a Chinese takeout restaurant, and my mom just worked in, like, an office, kind of as an administrative type person. And so growing up, we weren't like, we didn't, like, struggle or anything, but obviously as immigrants, they were, like, they were frugal. They were pretty non-spendie with their money. and generally pretty good with it. They didn't ever talk about money with us, though,

other than telling us not to spend it, which I think probably happens to a lot of people. And so we really didn't know very much about anything with money growing up. And so a lot of the stuff we focused on was get education, get a good job, the very traditional immigrant-type thing that you would do. So I went to college.

I was fortunate that they were able to pay for my college. And then afterwards, I went off to law school, and for that one, they couldn't afford to pay for that one. So I had to take out student loans for that. When I did do that, I got a half scholarship. So it cut my student loan balance down by a little bit. And I did that. And then when I first got my real job, I kind of realized, hey, I need to start learning something about how money works. Because I had a paycheck for the first time. And I'm like 26 now with like my first real paycheck. I really didn't know anything. And so that's kind of how I first started, like, learning about money and kind of like trying to do something with it. Whereas before, I was kind of taking whatever money I had and just spending it all and not really having anything to show for it, which is a pretty common thing, I think, for a lot of people.

Yes, the American, not the American dream so much is just the American way of life. So you assimilated really well. Good job. We don't talk about money forever in your life. And then just one day you get a paycheck and you figure out what to do with it after all of that. That's exactly right. It's like, you know, there's don't, no one talks about it.

And, you know, like I never knew what my parents made. I had no idea if we were like, we were doing fine, but I had no idea. Like, do we have money? Like, how are my parents doing? And even today, I have no idea. Like, I assume they're doing fine, but I really don't know. No, I remember this is very embarrassing. So, well, I'll go ahead and tell it anyways.

But I remember my first. paycheck. It wasn't after law school or anything. So it was like my $48, $50,000 a year job out of college. I get my first paycheck. And previous to that, I had always thought about dollars, you know, partially in terms of how many cases of natural light. You can purchase with those dollars. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like 200 cases of natural light. Natural light beer? That's right, yes. Natty late. It's like the official beer of college. It's being too formal. Yeah. And so that was my And I was like, what do I do with this now? It's so much money. I've never had anything like this to spend in my life before. What do I do? Anyways, so what was your balance sheet in position when you got this first paycheck? You had student loan debt. What was the kind of nuts and bolts of that situation? Yeah. So my student loans afterwards were $87,000, which is actually pretty good because most lawyers nowadays are coming out with like $160,000. The reason my balance was that low was because I had that scholarship.

And it was kind of a weird thing because it was cheaper for me to go out of state and live on my own than it was for me to stay back at home going to law school and living at home simply because of that scholarship. So that wouldn't really help me out. And when I end up paying off my student loans, I added it all up. So I ended up paying about $100,000 after all the interest and everything accumulated. So that's about what the damage was for law school for me. Got it. And what was your kind of plan of attack from that starting that position? Were you kind of like passive about paying them off at first? Or did you jump right into it and get going and pay them down? Yeah. So I got pretty aggressive right off the bat. One of the things is, you know, I started off at like a big law firm and the environment was like probably, I kind of knew that wasn't for me.

So I kind of was like, okay, I need to make sure that I am not stuck here and that I can like do something else if I have to. And so my basic plan was like, well, I've been spending the last, you know, seven years of my life living like with basically no money. So it's not going to be that hard for me to just like do that still. So, you know, like I was just thinking like, well, so how many Natty Lights do I need to live this month? So while a lot of people, we all drink better beer now, right? We all do. Now we're all craft beer. I hope so.

But that's kind of the way I appreciate. approached it was, you know, I don't need to inflate my lifestyle. You know, I'm 26 years old. No one expects a 26 year old to be like making bank and living in some luxury apartment anyway. And so I was like, well, I'm just going to keep living in this regular apartment, taking the bus to work, you know, not, or biking to work, not buying a car, not really like upgrading my clothes. It was just like, you know, I had just kind of normal stuff. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, and I didn't do this. I went the opposite route and, ooh, I've got money.

Now I can move out of my parents' house into my first apartment. But that didn't last very long because I'm so cheap. I'm like, I can't just throw away money on rent. I have to buy something, which led me down a whole different path. But so many people, they get that first paycheck and they're like, now I can spend it. I need a car. I deserve this. I've worked hard for it.

And, you know, what were your friends doing? Did you have a lot of attorney friends as well? Yeah, and so that's the thing. It's harder, especially in a law firm, because you're around all, like everyone in the law firm's making the same as you. So, you know, you kind of can see what all your friends are doing. And all of them would do the same thing because they're all living in like fancy apartments, you know, buying houses after a while and just like living much more lavishly than I was living. So my normal friends, like my friends who weren't, you know, big shot lawyers were living like regular. their lives. But like day in and day out, I was like surrounded by these people who are like making, you know, pretty good money and spending a lot of it to like show that lifestyle. And so it was kind of like, who am I going to compare myself to, right? Because am I, or who am I going to like put as my baseline? Because the way I saw was like, if I live like a normal 26 year old and not like a big shot lawyer 26 year old, then, you know, I can have so much more and kind of give myself more

options later down the line. How many hours a week were your peers at the law firm putting in on an average week? Yeah, it's, uh, you know, because of it's, it's like a 60 plus hour week type thing, which is really tough. And it, and it's not always like 60 hours, it's just straight working. It's like sometimes you're just waiting around, but, you know, because you are kind of getting, the thing about a law firm is like every partner is your boss. And so you're kind of just like there. And it's like, if you're there, you know, at nine o'clock, and then it's like you're getting ready to leave at five, and then some random partner comes up and says they want you to do something at five.

Now you've got to do that, and then you're leaving at like nine, ten o'clock, and you basically spent the whole day, didn't really do a ton, and then now you had like all this work at night, and so your day was really long, even if it didn't feel like you did a ton of work that day. But people are in the office on average 60-ish hours a week, right? Yeah, I would say so. And how long are they maintaining that for?

Like how long do they... Like how many years? So a lot of people kind of do it for like three to five years and they start like realize like, well, you know, this isn't going to work. And you kind of see them start jumping around to different types of jobs. And then, you know, the people who are really hardcore about it who are like are just built for that kind of thing, they stay for, you know, they go all the way to make it to the top.

It sounds like you were in the other group you mentioned earlier. Well, how long did it take you to realize that you didn't want to climb the ladder to the top or to make that a career move? Yeah. So I knew pretty much right away that this was. not going to be the right fit for me just because of how I wanted to live my life. And so the only thing that was really holding me back, though, of course, was that I had these student loans and I wanted to get rid of them really fast. And so I needed to stay in that. So I ended up staying

that job for three years before making a switch to a government job that I thought would be easier and with a better work-life balance. And that one was not. It was just as much work, actually, except for a big pay cut. So that didn't, that didn't, that wasn't a great. Well, okay, so look at this time. I'd say you stay there at three years and you pay off your entire student loan balance, I take it, right? And then you jump ship to the government job, right?

That's correct. 29 at this point in the government job. How long does that last? And let's pick up the story from there. Yeah, yeah. So I took that government job. I was there for a year before I made another switch to a nonprofit job. during that government job had really good benefits, but the hours were like, so one thing is, it was a $50,000 pay cut from what I was making before, which is like a pretty big amount to drop in one year. And so, you know, it's kind of funny. Lawyers have a weird thing where sometimes they can most jobs, most career paths, you kind of have a steady up, you know, increase in income. And with lawyers, it can actually go backwards where if you don't stay in the big law firm, you can actually flatten out or drop.

So another reason why it's really important to kind of avoid the whole lifestyle creep with a lawyer-type jobs. But yeah, so I got to this government job and the hours were just pretty much similar to what the big law job was. It was like a large state agency, you know, so essentially it's just a big state law firm essentially. But they just had so much work to do. And it was just a lot of late nights also. That sounds terrible. Right. So that's the one thing about the whole grass is greener. It sometimes isn't, which is why I ended up staying there just a year before I made another switch into a nonprofit that I thought would be a better work-life balance for me. And so the nonprofit was like kind of a law adjacent field. It was for my state bar association. And that one was fine. I was there for about a year and a half or almost two years. But it just like wasn't particularly that interesting to me. And meanwhile, I had had all. these like little, I did like doing my blog on the side. I'd been doing all these little side hustle things.

I was having a lot more fun doing. And I was kind of thinking myself, well, why don't I just do this instead and see where that can take me? I'm still young. I can always go back and get something else or switch over to something else if I need to. And so that's kind of my career progression. So what was your salary at the nonprofit compared to the government job? Yeah. Do you want like, I'm cool sharing specific numbers if you want. Sure. Yeah. So my, so my highest salary at the big law firm was 125,000. And my salary at the nonprofit was 57,000. So it's a pretty big reverse. That's a little bit different. Right. But, you know, the really interesting thing was even though I took such a big pay cut during those stretches, because I'd been like so used to living on less, I was still saving money like with no problem. Like, I always. had a huge surplus. I had never had any problem, it seemed, just because I hadn't really inflated my lifestyle very much during that, like five, six years of working. And so, like, it didn't

really impact me to drop down. Like, yeah, I could have saved more, obviously, if I, like, kept working a big, big law firm jobs, but it just, like, wasn't, it wasn't make me happy to do that. And you only have one life. Why? live it stressed out and miserable when you can live it happy and doing what you want, sort of. I mean, it doesn't sound like law was really your dream job. Did you dream of being a lawyer as a kid or did it just kind of fall into place? No. Law is one of these things. And I kind of talked about this with people where law is kind of one of those jobs where you can kind of default into when you have no idea what you're doing. So because unlike, you know, unlike the medical

school, like med school or dental school or any of those type of professions, law school doesn't have any prerequisites other than that you can just take a test, like a multiple choice, fill in the blank, or bubble test. And so as a result, a lot of people, you know, you see people, they graduate from college, and they're kind of like, well, what am I going to do? And so if they don't really know, they just go, well, lawyer. That's like a job that you know. And it's like, it's a very clear job with like very obvious steps to take to get to certain types of jobs. So like, you know, like even now, if you gave me your GPA and your L-Sat, I can tell you exactly what law school you can get into. And it's just like, it's like literally you know just from the numbers and there's nothing else

you need. It doesn't matter what you majored in. Whereas like, you know, med school, you need O-kem and all that stuff. So it makes it a little, there's more barriers to get in. And so for me, I graduated college in 2009, which was like in the recession. And I had no like, I had like no job, nothing to do. So I'm like, well, I'm just going to go to law school. Yeah. I think it's interesting just like this dynamic where a lot of people who go down your career track, they will spend themselves into a lifestyle that eats up basically all of their income. Right. That's like what you do. Right. And then you lock yourself into this perpetuating cycle of this career where you're progressing here. And then whenever you want to exit, you have to make an incredibly painful cutback on your lifestyle, which most people can't handle.

And you've just successfully bypassed all of that with the career choices that you've made, which I think is fantastic. And I've seen many people's lives, not many people in my life, I have seen the devastation left by a forced reduction in lifestyle. This is when people go from $250,000 a year of spending, and they're forced down to $80,000 a year of spending. it's this existential problem. And it doesn't have to be that way, right?

If you've already won the game, why don't you just spend reasonably, live like a normal person, and generate a massive surplus and then do what you want to do, which is the rules of the game that you figured out right away and have ripped the benefits of basically your whole career after you knocked out, got back to zero and paid off your debt. But Scott, then he can't show everybody how successful he is by driving his BMW and his Mercedes

and taking these lavish trips that he can tell everybody about. Yeah, he gets to come on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. And that's better. There you go, yeah. That's better than a Ferrari. Come on. Okay, so I know you're married. When did you meet your wife?

At what point in this career or schooling? Did you meet in school? I did, yep. So I was in law school and she was in dental school when we met. Oh, dental school. So you have now paid off. all of your student loans. But dental school I have heard is a little pricey. It is. It's crazy pricey, like ridiculous, even when you're in state and actually because my wife actually had to go

out of state because her state didn't have a dental school. So it made it even more pricey. But even the in-state rates are still really expensive these days too. Did you guys merge finances or how do you kind of handle money in your relationship with the different dynamics of debt there? We heard about your story, and it sounded like that was kind of an individualistic approach. But let us know. Yeah. So when I had my student loans, so we got married in 2017, and we met when we were in school.

So we met in 2012. So we've been dating for a while. And, you know, we had our own separate finances. She had her things. I had mine. And her schooling was a lot longer because she also did a residency. So she actually didn't even start her first real job until last year. So it's been, she's been on school for a long time.

For me, my whole thing with student loans was like, it was my student loans. We weren't married yet. So it was like my own thing. And so my goal was like, we got engaged like during that stretch. But I was like, I'm going to pay off these student loans before like we're even married. So like I'm like fresh and like out of it. And so that's what I did. With her now, we have like it.

We've combined our finances now. And so for her right now, we are working on it. we're actually kind of doing a little different compared to how I did it. When I paid off my student loans, I was kind of just dumping money into it as I went. This time, I kind of, because of hers, we kind of like, I like having that big surplus.

So instead of like throwing it down every time and like the money's now gone, we've actually just been kind of setting it aside. So like, just in case something happens, we've got the cash that we can like use, like just in case. Not to like buy like a car or something, but just in case there's like something that happens that we need it, that we need a little flexibility. It's kind of nice to have that little

surplus cash. And then once it's enough, we can just kind of get rid of her student loans. So what, what is your kind of like, is your position largely basically cash then and then the debt and you're just kind of slowly paying that down and smalling your cash reserve? Do you invest at all as well? Yeah. So I've got my investments pretty strong. And most of my money is actually invested, like the money that I had made like when I was working. After I paid off my student loans, I was just saving money and putting into investments. For my wife, she, because she started her career so late, she's actually just started, like, investing because she had no money before.

And now she, like, started doing it now that she has, like, a significant income. And so for her, like, her side of the balance sheet is definitely very cash heavy. And so that's kind of where we are. So right now we're pretty cash heavy. But it's not that way because we're scared to invest because we are still like hitting the investments hard. We're just, we're just kind of keeping a cash position right now until the student loans are gone.

Got it. Okay. Do you have an estimated time of her debt payoff? Yeah. We think we can pay her debt off by next year, which is kind of the goal. Oh. We are doing it. Yeah, there's a couple of reasons for that.

So she had a lot of student loans. and these are things that are different than most people. So she had $300,000 of dental school loans. Crazy. I know. And you're paying that off in one year? No. What's happening is because her father passed away like before I met her.

And her father had a lot of life insurance, which she had been just holding on to. And then a few years back, she put about 200,000 of that into the student loans, which brought it down 100,000. thousand. And so that's what's happening now. So now we only have 100,000 of her student loans, which is very low, but she started with 300,000. So it's kind of like a unique situation, kind of wasn't, you know, it's not like the best one, but that's kind of what happened. That's kind of what happened for her. I wouldn't say $100,000 in student loans is low. For a dentist, it's really low. For a dentist, yes. I mean, they get up to like four or $500,000.

right? Yeah, I have a lot of dental school friends. One of them is $400,000 student loans. I have another who's over $500,000 student loans. I've got another person who's been doing residence. I wouldn't be surprised if his student loans are over $500 also. So it's really, it's like a huge mortgage. It's all relative to your income, right? And a dentist is going to make a very strong income, which is one of the reasons why it's an attractive profession, right? And so that $100,000 in debt is just not that it's half a year maybe of salary for, I don't know, on average, how much a dentist makes, but it's probably in that ballpark, maybe less. Right.

Well, Dennis are a little bit different. So they do make a lot if they, or they can make a lot if they own their own practice, but not so much if they are just working for someone. So that's what the thing my wife did is she bought a practice right after she was done with her residency. And so that's really helped her out a lot. I mean, it's a lot more work, obviously. but it's like her business, which is how you can make a lot more as a dentist compared to just

working as associate for someone. Okay. So you are no longer employed. I believe we called you an unemployed bum at the beginning of the show. You still generate income, right? Correct. Okay. So how are you doing this?

You were a lawyer. Now you're not a lawyer anymore. What makes you money? Yeah. So I have a couple of things. I have my blog, which I was working on since 2016. And so that's like what I consider my primary profession now. I've just been building that up on the side.

That was like a thing I was doing at nights and on weekends to like get it going. And then I do a lot of stuff to like in the sharing economy and gig economy, which is stuff I was doing even when I was a lawyer. So you know, I can just kind of go through the list of what I did, what all the stuff I do. Yes. I already know a lot of this list and I love that you do this. So please share all the things that you. generate income with. And if you could give us like a little bit of an idea what that pays.

Yeah, sure. So, you know, so I rent out a room in my house on Airbnb and I sometimes rent out my whole house on Airbnb when I go on trips and stuff. So that one I usually make between, make about $1,000 a month from the Airbnb, which is, this is great because it's just like a room in my house that would otherwise be empty. And then I do a dog sit using an app called Rover that's like a dog boarding website. Think of it as an Airbnb for dogs. That one, you usually make about three grand a year doing somewhere around the neighborhood, $3,000 a year doing that. And the thing that makes Rovers so good for me is I already own a dog. So it's not like any extra work for me because I already have to walk my dog and feed my dog and do all that other stuff. So it kind of just like integrates

in my life perfectly. And I've been doing that for like five years now. So I have like this base of repeat dogs I keep watching. They're like so easy, so cute. And I probably watch them for free, honestly, but that's like a bonus. Do these dogs come stay with you or do you have to go to these other residences? No, they stay in my house. So basically, I just have a second dog in my house a lot of the time. Oh, perfect. Yeah. It's like awesome. So yeah, and then I also do food deliveries using my bike for apps like Postmates, DoorDash, Uber Eats, and Grubhub. And this is one that I think is super underrated if you do it with a bike specifically and not with a car. Because I bike around the city and I'm getting paid basically to essentially do what I would already do anyway because

I'm like a heavy biker. I like bike like for exercise and for fun all the time. And the fact that like I'm getting to do this little like treasure hunt is like great. And the great thing too is the way I usually did it is I would kind of like combine it with and I mean the way I usually do it like combine it with like my commutes. So like if I'm coming home from like downtown, I will like grab some deliveries that are going back towards my house, which I'm already biking to anyway. So it's like I'm getting paid to go home, you know, even if it's like a little bit of a meandering route. But that's something that I think is super underrated to essentially get paid to exercise.

So you can set that up in the app, you can set it up so that, hey, I want to go generally from this direction to this direction, give me a delivery that meets that criteria? So no, you can't do it that way, but you can kind of wait around because you can reject any order that comes in. And so if you're like sitting in your office,

you're getting ready to go, you just turn on the app and just kind of wait until, you turn all the apps and just kind of wait until the deliveries that you want are going in the direction you want to go. And then the best thing, is if you can double up and have deliveries. This is how you really make money on it.

If you double up and have deliveries from multiple apps at the same time, going in the same general direction, because then you're like doing, you know, you're multitasking, essentially. Oh, nice. Wow. It's a great tip. And what does that pay? So that one I typically make, because I only do it during like prime times,

like essentially lunch and dinner, I'm always making about $20 to $25 an hour. So I'll usually do like an hour of it and make like 25 bucks. So what is that? I mean, it's usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 or 500 bucks a month, just like doing that, you know, in my spare time. When I'm working out, I'm paying to work out.

I'm not getting paid to work out. Right. And like, this is great. Like, I discovered these apps, these delivery apps from my brother because he lives in D.C. and he, like, back in like, 2014, he just like, he was like, you know, you got to, like, try out this app. was doing these deliveries on his skateboard and stuff. It was like, this is so fun.

And, you know, he's like, owns a business and, like, he still does deliveries just because he thinks it's fun. Like, you know. So we've got, we've got the dog sitting. We've got the delivery. Airbnb. Airbnb. And the Airbnb.

Do you have other sources besides that? I've got a whole lot of other sources. All right. Let's keep going. This is awesome. So another thing I started doing is a few years back is an app called Wag. It's like an on-demand dog walking app. So think of it like an Uber for dogs when people need to get their dog walked during the day.

They'll like put the thing in the app and then you can just pick up like walks if they're near you. And so that one was great because I would do that. Back when I had like my nine to five day job, there were all these apartment buildings all around my office. And so I could just like walk outside and like grab a dog walk during lunch, which is when most people want their dogs walk anyway. And so each time I walk a dog, it'd be like a half hour and make like $16. And so basically instead of like sitting at my desk eating like a sandwich, you know, and just like wasting time on like the internet, I would just go for like a 30 minute walk like around and like get a little exercise, get a little fresh air and like walk a dog

and get paid while I was doing it. So that one was great. And so, you know, that one you can make like, you know, I would make like 100 or 200 bucks a month doing that. Great. All of these little side jobs add up to a full-time income, but they don't sound like they take a lot of time out of your day. Like you can go and walk a dog at lunch. Like you said, you're not sitting at your desk.

Connor Center, if you're listening to this, there's another way to make a little bit of extra cash because we're going to have all of these apartment buildings right by our office. So there you go, Connor. I know he listens to the show he works at our. Right. It's like it really, it's exactly because like it only takes up a lot of time if you're like really going out of your way to do it.

Like if you're like kind of incorporating it into the stuff you're already doing, then it really doesn't feel like you're like adding hours to your day. You know, so it's like if you're walking a dog during your lunch break, does that count as you working a half hour or like was that like time that would have been spent doing nothing anyway, right? Same with like my commute home. It's like if I'm doing delivery on my way home, is that like that work or is that like I'm just getting paid to go home?

Oh, awesome. Yeah. So let's keep going. I can keep going. Yeah. So another one, this started in 2018, was charging up bird and lime scooters. If you're in any big city, you've probably seen these scooters around. And basically what you do is you just, you sign up to be a charger, like a scooter charger,

and you take them back in your house and like just plug them in. and then you bring them back out in the morning, you have to drop them off in certain spots. But if you live in, like, you know, a dense area, which a lot of, like, especially young, like millennials do, you know, like new college grads and that kind of thing, you can really, it's so easy because, like, I live, like, near a large university. So there's, like, a ton of scooters.

And so every night I'll just grab six scooters. It'll take me, like, 15 minutes max. I just literally walk out the door and just grab six scooters. I do this on foot. So it takes a little skill for me. Like I've learned how to do it. I can basically stack all the scooters up on top of each other and ride like a big stack home.

I got to like show a video to understand how it looks like. But it's like it's a pro move. And so every night, each scooter here in Minneapolis pay $5 a scooter. And so it's like every night I make $30 just taking these scooters home, you know, just like walking outside my door. And then the drop-off spots because again, I'm in a dense neighborhood, all the drop-off spots are right around my house too. So, like, a block away, I'll just, like, bring them back out in the morning.

And as a kind of like a bonus when you're, like, using these, when you, like, are charging these scooters, you can basically ride them around free. Oh. Right. And so sometimes, you know, if I'm, like, you know, a little lazy, I'll use the scooters to do deliveries. You always get to laugh when I bring it, like, I'm delivering food. I'm, like, on, like, a lime scooter.

They'll be like, what's this? Are you paying for that? I'm like, oh, no, there's like a little strategy I use. So what does that do to your electricity bill? Yeah, that's a question people always ask. So these scooters, the batteries in these scooters are like a battery and like a laptop. They don't take up a lot of electricity. People have done the math on them and it's like two to five cents to charge it from zero to 100%.

And so, which, right, most people like don't read. realize that like, oh, right. Because they're like, this like a micro-obility thing, the batteries don't have to be that big to move the vehicle. And so the battery is not like a huge, like, giant batteries. It's just like taking a ton of electricity. It's essentially like charging up a laptop, basically. I would get extra electrical service in my house and bring a boatload of these things home and charge them up. How long does it take to charge? It takes like four to five hours to charge them from zero to 100. So you pretty much just put them there overnight and then in the morning you just wake up and drop them off. Oh, I'd be doing this all day long. Do you get a little

notification? This one needs to be charged. So you don't get notifications. You have to just kind of look in the app to see what's available. So I'm like always just looking in the app because I just like to grab the scooters. But for me also, I just like riding these scooters around because sometimes I'll just charge them and then not put them back out. It's like hang on to it and just ride it around. For these scooters, do you average six per night? Yeah, I do six per night is my goal. And I've had at least during the summer, I had no problem doing it. Here in Minneapolis, they take them out during the winter. So they're gone now. But yeah, so in like, I had one month where I made over a thousand bucks charging up these scooters. And then the rest of the summer, I was at $800 or more every month,

literally just walking out the street picking up the scooters. And like, it's funny because I had some people here and they like saw how I did it. And they're like, oh, man, I'm going to do that too. So I have like friends now who are also doing it because they like live in like downtown areas and they just like, like, yeah, these scooters are everywhere. This is also not a huge time commitment. Right? You grab the scooters, you plug them in and then you walk away.

And that's 30 bucks. That's dinner. Your utilities for the month every single night. There's, you could almost pay rent just by doing that. You could almost, yeah. And the main thing is the caveat is this is very location dependent. That is true. You live somewhere that doesn't have a lot of scooters, like you live in a farther out

from the city center, I don't think it would be worth it. Because then you'd have to drive probably and you'd be like wasting your time going back and forth. But if you are in like these neighborhoods that like all the young millennials are living, that is where you can do it because there are just so many of them around. Have we exhausted the list or how much longer does this go on? Oh, yeah, yeah. I can just jump through some quicker ones.

Keep going, yeah. This is great. Yeah, so another thing I sometimes do is, and this is the only one that my wife does with me because she just loves doing this is like flipping stuff. So like if we find like furniture in the street, we'll sell that on like a Craigslist or Facebook marketplace. We sometimes go to like Goodwill and we'll just like find.

stuff and that we think is worth more than it's selling for and flip it. Another place is, there's a place called Goodwill Outlet. It's like wild. You go there and you buy stuff by the pound and there's always like you're like, you literally just like dig through bins looking for things and it's paid for by pound, but like you find some sweet stuff. Like I once found like a Burton like snowboard bag. I didn't know what that was, but my wife knew what it was. And that thing cost me, since it's by the pound, that thing must have cost me a dollar to buy. And I sold it for $50. Yes. I live, we live in Colorado, Scott and I live in Colorado. So there's mountains right there. There's a lot of snowboard gear that gets donated or ski gear to. I'm not discriminatory,

but I do snowboards. So I go there first. There's a lot of stuff that gets like left at the resorts and you go to the thrift stores up in the mountains. And I got a Columbia ski jacket for like $15 And it fits perfect. I got my sister a snowboard, snowboard boots and snowboard bag because she lives in the Midwest for $15 each. So for $45, she's set to go. She can go snowboarding in the Midwest,

which doesn't have great places. Or she can come out here. And she's got a, it's a brand name board. I think it's a Burton or a ride or something. They're just so cheap and people will pay a lot more. I used to sell snowboards online on eBay. they're really expensive to ship. Oh, yeah.

That's the nice thing about that bag. I could like fold it up and stick in a box. Yeah. Do you sell anything on eBay? Yeah, yeah. So I sell it on eBay also. So most of the stuff I find out like clothes stuff, I sell it on eBay. That's awesome.

Is there any tips for things that like you thought would sell but wouldn't sell or things that sell really well? Yeah. So it seems like if you're doing, if you're going to do any of this like reselling things, you kind of need to pick your lane that you're good at. So for me, like, whenever I see anything, it's sports related, I instantly grab it because, like, sports stuff tends to sell.

I find sells pretty well. And it kind of makes sense. Like, you know, if you're, like, looking for a college, especially college sports stuff specifically, because, you know, if you're like, you need like a college hoodie or something, you're just going to, like, that's just something that people are going to buy, like, no matter what I find. And so that's kind of what I aim for. So like I recently found a University of Wisconsin like Columbia jacket. I've got that currently listed up for $40 and we'll see.

I'll probably get like $35 or $40 for it. I paid a dollar for that thing at the Goodwill Outlet. And when I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh. I just snatch it out there. And then someone else there grabbed the Minnesota jacket. So they got a hold of that before I could get it. Oh, and people are so, I don't want to say this and sound negative. I don't mean negative, but they're so rabbi.

rabidly fanatic about the college that they went to. Hey, Scott, where did you go to college? I went to Vanderbilt University. Yeah, I knew the answer to that. I don't know how many times you've said that on the show, but in real life, that comes out frequently. And I'm not like talking smack about Scott. He's proud of where he goes. I guess rabidly fanatic isn't the right word. Go doors. Commodores. You're the Commodores. Oh, I'm like, you're the doors? My high school? The Vanderbilt Commodores. That's right. Yeah. What's a Commodore? It's like someone who commands a fleet of ships. Oh, okay. In my high school, we were the tugboats.

Yeah. The porters. Cornelius Vanderbilt had a kind of like canal system transportation network that he oversaw and facilitated. I'm probably butchering that and some will beat me up. Who listens to the show and knows that story a little better than me. But yeah, so we're the Vanderbilt Commodores, yes. So I have nothing that says Commodore audit.

So Kevin, if you find anything from Vanderbilt. Right. Because if he has to go to like a football game or something or a basketball game, he's going to need like a hoodie or a sweater or something, right? I've got plenty of that stuff to your point. Yeah. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye. opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that

Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly.

Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need.

When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, Like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business.

And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data. And all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. Okay, so what else are you finding? Yeah, I like selling like coats and stuff too. I always find that those are like pretty light and they sell for a lot more than they cost.

Oh, that's a good plan. Yeah, you know, especially if you find like a downcoat, like that Columbia coat, for example, right? Like if you can find one like that, it's like you can sell that usually for 30 bucks. And if you can buy it for less, you know, for way less than that, then it's, and it's very easy to ship it out. You just kind of stuff it into a like a one of those, you know, or you just save like whenever you order something. You just save the box for it and you just stuff it. of those. So those are kind of what I focus on. And it's just, this is one of those things that does take work to go to it. But it's just funny because like my wife is like, you know, she's like a dentist

making like very good money and she still goes to the good well out. And she'll like be like, hey, do you want to go there today? I'll be like, eh, not really. But she's like, come on, let's go. He likes digging around looking for treasures to see if she finds anything good. Okay, that was going to be my other point. I had two points to make about this. First of all, All of these side hustles are doable by anybody. Maybe not the lime scooter. I live in a suburb. We don't have any lime scooters or any other scooters.

So I can't do that one. But I can rent a room in my house. I can go to the good. I love going to the Goodwill. I could be a hoarder. And that's not a good thing. But if I can go there and buy things and then sell them, I'm making money. I still get the experience of going to the Goodwill.

And then I don't have to have all this stuff in my house. But I have never found anything that sells well for me. So I just gave it up. But I think I just picked dumb things. to try and sell too. Right. It takes some time before you can figure out like, okay, what is it? But the great thing is like, you know, if you pick stuff and it's not good, like, or it doesn't

sell, it's like, well, you won't be out like a ton, right? You know, you don't have to like spend tons of money buying stuff. Exactly. Oh, I just paid it for a dollar so I can donate it. Right. But then the other point is you're a lawyer. Your wife is a dentist. Why would you waste your time doing this when you could be making more money?

On teeth and the law. Right. You know, and for me, like, a lot of the reason I did, I started doing all these, like, I started almost all these side hustles while I was working at my big law firm. And for me, a lot of it was just like, this was kind of like a stress relief for me. It was like a way for me to kind of like manage how I was feeling because I could like go and like do a bunch of deliveries on my bike after work and like, you know, not even like think about work and like begin doing something active.

and it was like something totally 100% different than what I was doing for the last 10 hours, which was sitting in front of a desk typing something or searching for something. And so that is why I like first started doing this stuff. And like I just found them fun. So it's like the fact that like yeah, it's like definitely beneath me. And yeah, I could like go and do something else. I could probably try to do some other law related thing. But do I want to after I'm already spending 10 hours?

like kind of not enjoying what I was doing. Do I really want to go do something more of the same thing that I'm doing that I'm not having fun doing? So that's kind of like how I end up doing this stuff. So what does the day in the life look like? Yeah. So right now the day and life is like I wake up in the morning. I like take care of my dog.

I go for a little walk. And then I try to work on my website and stuff during the morning. I have a co-working space downtown that I go to to kind of like keep myself a good schedule. So I'm not like just like sitting at home all the time. And then during lunch, when the lunch rush hour comes, I usually like to hop on a bike and start doing deliveries around the lunch, like for the lunch crowd downtown, which is always super easy because they're like always really close. It'll be like, you know, the five guys down the street, like, up, you know,

to like the building that's like across the street. So I like to do that. And then, you know, I'll work in the afternoon and then maybe pick up some like dog walks or something. Again, because there's so many around me. And then in the evening, I'll usually, this is what I was doing for a while, I would grab scooters and try to scoot them home. Like, so I'd grab like two or three scooters and ride them back towards my house. So it's like I was getting a free scooter ride home and making money on the way. And then I also sometimes, depending on the day, I'll do deliveries on my way home as well.

Got it. So you're making $150 a day without having a boss telling you what to do. without feeling stressed, you get to be paid while you exercise. You get to ride a fun scooter. Those scooters are super fun. They're so fun. And I asked the question about why don't you do something, you know, that pays more just because I can hear somebody listening to this saying, well, why doesn't you just go back

to work? Well, because that's work. That's somebody telling you what to do. That's the partner coming to your desk at five o'clock as you're packing everything up. Oh, hey, you got four extra hours? No, I didn't. now you do. Right. And that's kind of how I started thinking about. It's like, what can I do that is like, makes me happier, you know? And but, but, you know, like, since I don't need a lot to live, it's like,

I have a lot more choices now, you know, because, you know, if my baseline was like, I need a hundred grand every year to live, that means I only have a few types of jobs I can do. Whereas if I only need, you know, half of that or less, I have like the whole spectrum of jobs I can do. Well, let's break this down real quick. You just listed a set of activities where you make about $150 a day through your work, specifically, which is the deliveries, the ride share, the dog walking, all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. But you're also building an asset, which is your blog, right?

And you passively make money through your Airbnb, through your residence there as well, right? And this is all made possible by this very low-cost lifestyle and the fact that you have, no personal debt, you know, outside of your wife's debt. Correct, yeah. And, you know, this is kind of like what I did because, like, I had like the regular day job and then I had kind of like a scalable business that I had started up and then the side hustles. And so it's kind of nice because now I got rid of the regular job. And so now I have my scalable, like, business. And then my side hustles basically give me like a floor, you know, if that makes sense. So it's like I know whatever my business does,

At least I can make it a little bit, at least. Like, I'm not going to be rich, obviously. But at least I'll be like, okay, just doing the other stuff. And so it's like, it gives me a little comfort, I guess. And, you know, it's kind of like, when I was working, I kind of thought my side hustle is kind of like this little kind of side hustle emergency fund. So like, if something happened, I knew like, well, I'm not going to be digging all my savings because I can make some money on the side doing these other stuff just more often.

Now, what law school does you go to? I went to a University of Minnesota. Okay, great. Other law school grads from Minnesota who start off in a big firm, right? If they're still there, they're probably making it in the ballpark of $175,000 to $200,000 a year. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what they're making now, like my year. But yeah, they probably are.

Yeah, and they have one option, which is to continue basically doing that. Or they can take a, what seems like a crazy reduction in hours, but it was them from like 70 to 55 hours a week at another job. for a hefty pay cut, right? Those are their only two options. That's their two options they think that they have. That's right, yeah. And the way you've constructed is you broke it down.

You're like, none of this stuff that anybody can do is beneath me, which is, which you use your phrasing there. And I'm going to, exactly, I'm going to step this floor. I'm going to get rid of my debt. I'm going to manage my life in this way. And now I have a broad number of options. And when it's all set and done, you're probably going to have a happier day to day and be more fulfilled with what you're doing.

And you might end up better off financially downstream anyways from an income perspective, depending on how some of these side hustles and businesses end up growing downstream, like, for example, your blog, or whatever it is you invest in and grow. Right? I mean, it's just a kind of a crazy outcome and crazy situation when you break it all down like that

where why would you lock yourself into that pattern from a spending standpoint and trap yourself in that mental cage? that you have to imagine so many of these other lawyers, industry professionals, similar to that, are locking themselves into. Yeah, and, you know, it's just to, like, kind of talk about that. You know, there's a, there's a thing where with, like, especially with a lot of these, like, professional professions,

where you kind of start, where you kind of, since you identify with it so much, you kind of think that is the only thing you can do. So, you know, if you look at my own work history, like I jumped jobs a lot, but I kept being unhappy and then jumping into another legal job, thinking like, well, that's all I can do because, like, I went to law school. I am a lawyer, right? And, you know, you see, I still call myself a lawyer, even though I don't, like, practice because

they identify with that so much because there's, like, a big part of my life. And it's like, there's a lot of lawyers who are, like, unhappy and, like, really want to do something else, but they aren't able to, like, quite get themselves in that mental position of, like, maybe I can do something that isn't law, you know? Like, maybe there's, like, a huge world of stuff out there and I can try something else. Because it's hard. It's hard to do that, right? You know, if you've been doing this thing, it's like not easy to think, well, what else can I do? That's right. And I don't think we've talked about the status part of it before. Being a lawyer is very impressive. And being a doctor is very impressive. And being a guy who plugs scooters into

his wall at night, I think is very impressive, but it's impressive in a different way. So how do you you, how do you get over that? Yeah, that is a thing I have battled with a lot because, you know, especially like even for me, like when I was changing jobs and stuff, I would keep kind of taking like sort of jobs that would be seen as worse, you know? And it's like, I'd be like around all my, like, these other lawyers who are talking about like very prestigious things, you know, the big cases they're working on, the big law firm they work at. And it's like something that honestly, I don't think you ever really get over that. You just have to like be comfortable And like I still, that's still a thing I, like, have to work on too

because, you know, a lot of people ask me, like, they'll be like, what do you do? Right? That's what they ask. And my natural instinct is just like, I'm a lawyer. So they like, no, like, I am like someone, right? And like, I'm like, oh, I'm a blogger. And it's like, oh, so this guy's a bum, right? And so it's something that I honestly haven't gotten over yet.

And I'm like still working through that myself. Just like, it takes a lot of work to be comfortable with, what you're doing and who you are and like what makes you happy and what like moves you. Well, one of my favorite quotes is from Coco Chanel, the fashion designer. She said, I don't care what you think about me. I don't think about you at all. She's super sassy. And, you know, and I try to tell that to my daughters who are in middle school and in the throes of all

the drama that comes with the teenage hormones and all of that. But, you know, it doesn't matter. in the long run, it doesn't matter what people think of you. It only matters that you are proud of yourself and you, I just did math on the calculator because I wanted to double check my numbers, but $150 a day times 30 days is $4,500. If you're used to living on very low, $4,500 is, you know, livable, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like totally fine. I don't feel like I'm like struggling or anything. It's like totally fine. That's your floor. That's before Airbnb and before your blog income, right?

Right. That's the interesting thing is that since I quit my job, like, with the combined everything, it's more than I was making than my day job income. And it was kind of funny because when I wanted to, or it was like, when I wanted to make the leap to like doing my own thing, it was like such a scary thing, right? You know, because like I have like this steady income and like I wanted to keep it. But it's like, I can like do that myself.

And it's kind of like since I was making less also than what I was making as a big time, a big law lawyer, it was like easier for me because I had lowered my, like, what I thought I needed to make. So it's like when I quit my job, I was like, I just need to make $57,000 this year. And I will be exactly the same position as I was before. So that was a lot easier for me to do than like if I needed to make $150,000. Yes. That would be very difficult with your current set of tasks. But within a couple of years, some of these things grow.

You know, you never know. Right, right. And I want to make a couple more. I keep making all these points. I want to just reiterate, this is before your wife's dental income, which is not insignificant. I think that we should, you know, mention that again just because the manned fientist is married to an optometrist. And he was in some article online and somebody was like, well, yeah, but his wife's an optometrist. His wife's a doctor.

Yeah, she is. But that doesn't negate the fact that he can support them on his side hustle business and on his, you know, all of his, you know, investments in everything. Just because she's a doctor doesn't make him any less financially independent. Just because you're married to a dentist doesn't make you any less financially independent. And now you're working all of these little side hustles that you could stop working if it suddenly decided to not make you happy anymore or if it suddenly didn't make you happy anymore. You know, all of a sudden, now it costs you $5 to hook up Lime scooters.

Probably not going to do that anymore. But you seem like a happy guy. I have met attorneys who are extremely stressed out because their whole life revolves around, you know, being stern and, you know, doing all the lawyery things. They don't seem happy. Right. You seem real happy. Yeah. That is definitely true.

And that's like what a lot of people have told me. since they like have seen me like post my legal career that I am just much more happy. It's because like even though I'm not making like the big, big bucks like before, it's like that's not as important to me as like having control, more control of like my life and like feeling like I am in charge of it and not like someone else, you know. So it's been good. Like I've been able to travel a lot more, maybe I've been able to visit people more. And I've just like felt much happier with my day to day.

more. Like, I'm not dreading Monday. Like, what day's, today's Monday. And I'm not dreading. I didn't dread it as I was for the last, you know, five, six years. I always look forward to Mondays now because I get to record a podcast. Yeah, this was awesome. I love, love, love that you do what you do without regard to what other people think. And that's, you know, that's just, that's really impressive. Yeah. And that, you know, that's a lot about like money. It's like being uncomfortable with you and not having to feel like I need to keep up with everyone else around me or like I have to do what everyone else around me is doing. Exactly.

That is so perfect. Okay. Well, now it is time for the famous four questions. These are the same four questions we ask of all of our guests? Kevin, are you ready? I am. Yep. What is your favorite finance book?

Yeah. So my favorite one is probably J.L. Collins, Simple Path to Wealth. That's the one that like when I first found that like whole stock series thing, it was like really made it seem much easier than I thought investing and everything was. And that is the book like now it's in a book form, which is even better. That's like the book I tell everyone if they just are like trying to figure out how money works. Like I'm like, just get this book. Like this book is going to change like your life.

That is an excellent book. And Jim was on our podcast episode 20. where we asked him all about that book and the very simple path to wealth. What was your biggest money mistake? Yeah, for me, it was when I was in college, so I had like jobs and stuff in college. And because like my parents were able to cover me, I didn't have very many expenses. And so all the money I made in college, I just spent it all on like clothes. No, not even Natty Light.

It was like on clothes and stuff. I had no business. buying. I would like buy like lacost polos and really expensive stuff that I don't have at all. And when I look back on it, it's like, oh man, I really wish I had put that away or like at least like not spent all of it because when I graduated like from college, like I'd been work. I'd like work jobs that whole four years. I had zero dollars like nothing left to show for it even though I had like no expenses. So it's like it was all spent on like clothes and stuff that I don't have anymore. Makes sense. Yeah. Too bad you hadn't discovered the Goodwill outlet yet. Right, right.

But you see, back then I was like trying to show off how like awesome I was. So I like wouldn't have wanted to go to that. Right. I only wanted to buy like the fancy stuff at the mall or whatever. Yeah, but that one that you pull out of the bin looks the same as the one you bought at the mall. Right, but I would know that it wasn't and then that would get me. I'm like, oh, I need them to know that like... What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Yeah, so my best piece of advice for people starting out is just to not be afraid of trying things.

I think that, you know, we get a lot into our head and at least for me too, it's like, you know, you can't make any mistakes, right? When you're, when you're like when you're like growing up. up and whatever. And it's like, life is so long, you know? And I look at it in like when I was in my 20s, like, the reason I went to Los Angeles was like, oh, I don't want to like take any chances trying something else, seeing if I can do something else. And like in retrospect, I wish I had like given myself that permission to like try things and maybe fail, maybe make it, but like just try it, especially while I was young, like really young. Because there's like, the life is just so long

and we just have so many opportunities today. And I think that the way we're taught to, like, just stay in your lane and just do that, like, from the time, you know how, like, when we're kids, like, kind of, like, shuttle us all into different things, right? And, like, you're kind of told, like, this is what you're supposed to do. And I just think that that doesn't work anymore

just because there's so many more opportunities to, like, do different things and, like, see what is out there. Oh, that's a really interesting perspective. We haven't heard before. I think, you know, I think that I can relate here because also coming from a kind of upper middle class background where parents paid for college and stuff, it was like, oh, I have to do everything perfect, get just straight A's beyond the sports team, go to the good college, get the fast line career, and like the Fortune 500 company was kind of similar dynamic to the wall,

but the shift. And it wasn't like, oh, let's experiment with 20 different things here. was, here's what seems like the best, the good options, go with them and go all in. Right, exactly. And it's like kind of funny because like, I mean, we act like, oh, if we do something wrong when we're like 22, that's going to like impact our life, it's like probably not, you know? And like there's a scene in one of the Transformers movies. It's like Transformers 3 or something where the Shia La Bluff, the main character, he's like trying to get a job outside of college, right? He's like interviewing with like this John Malkovich's character. And the dude is, in the interview is like, this first job is critical.

It determines your life. Now I'm like, what? There is no, that is like crazy. But that's like how some of this thing, it's like 22, we need to like get it right, right then because if we don't, that's it, we're done. And it's just, it's crazy, I think. It's been less than you learn and do what you love. Yeah, yeah, it is crazy.

And I have to tell you, I have changed careers now three times. This is my third different career. And, you know, the first one was interesting, but I always felt like a fraud. I was a graphic designer, but I always felt like I didn't know what I was doing. My second one, I was a, I sold quilting supplies. And I loved it, but it didn't pay very well. And then I stayed home to have kids. We had been flipping houses forever and this job of Bigger Pockets popped up.

And I'm like, I love this. This is my end career. I won't do anything else after Bigger Pockets. This is like where I will spend the remainder of my working life. And it's it's because I love it. So if you find something that you think you like and then you start working in and you decide, oh, this isn't for me. It's okay to pivot.

And if that happens at 22, if that happens at, you know, I'm not 22, 23. So, you know, if that happens at 30 or 40, it's okay to pivot and try something else because being happy in your job, feeling confident that you know what you're doing, feeling like you're doing a good job is so much better than whatever high-paying job you had before where you felt like a fraud. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Yeah, so. I'm waiting for your dentist. Yeah, no, I don't have any jokes I tell at parties. Like, I'm not great at puns and those kind of things, but my niece always has her joke that she says.

And so her joke is always, you know, why did the banana go to the doctor? Because he wasn't peeling well. I love it. And she always says and laughs so hard. And so that's the joke that that's the only joke I know. And do you want to give her a shout out? No, that's a shout out for her. That's her shout out for her.

On a related note, do you know what Beethoven's favorite fruit is? No. The banana-na-na-na-na. That's my banana joke. All right. Bananas, yeah, a lot of jokes of bananas. Where can people find out more about you? Yeah, they can find me at my blog,

Financial Panther.com. And on there, I, you know, write about like financial independence and money and all these side hustles that I do. They can also find me on Twitter at Financial Pants with so no R at the end because it wouldn't fit. And I'm trying to get my Instagram going. So you can find out Instagram at the,

underscore financial panther. And we will have links to all of these in our show notes, which can be found at biggerpockets.com slash money show 107. Kevin, thank you so much for today. This was awesome. These side hustles that you shared, people can do almost anywhere. And it's not, I'm assuming this doesn't take that much time out of your life, then you can go and do whatever it is you want to do that makes you truly happy.

And, you know, probably also make a dollar because you're. riding your bike. And by the way, I could just make a delivery on that route. And I just think that's so great. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show today and share it with us. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Somebody reached out and asked, you have to interview the financial panther. I'm like, oh, I just met him at FinCon. So that worked out perfectly. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Okay. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for your time today. I'll let you get back to a scooter plugging in. It's right. It's almost lunchtime.

Yeah, it's almost time to go rock dogs. I got to go, yeah, I got to go hustle. Awesome. Okay, well, have a great day. All right. Bye.