BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 148: How to Become an Everyday Millionaire with Chris Hogan

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

Chris Hogan joins Scott and Mindy today to chat about becoming an everyday millionaire. Chris and his team interviewed more than 10,000 millionaires to hear how they did it. Hard work, determination, spending less than you make, investing wisely, and eliminating debt. Chris shares how to discuss your finances with your spouse - and how to bring them on board when you have differing views about money. He talks about the emotional journey that debt paydown can take you on - and how to handle that so you come out on top! Chris also reveals his feelings about FIRE - and how there is too much focus on the RE and not enough on the FI. He wants you to become Financially Independent but also wants you to enjoy your journey. Chris firmly believes that anyone can become debt free and start to build wealth to become an Everyday Millionaire. Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Dave Ramsey's 7 Baby Steps BiggerPockets Money Podcast 50 with Patrice Washington The Retire Inspired Quotient Check the full show notes here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/moneyshow148 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 148 where we interview Chris Hogan from the Chris Hogan show. Yes, that Chris Hogan. And hear how you can become an everyday millionaire too. Getting out of debt is intense and it's a short period of time and you can see the enemy. With building wealth, there's not necessarily an enemy. You're chasing a dream. And so you've got to be able to see it. You've got to be able to tap into it.

You've got to believe that you're worthy of that. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. me as always is my jubilant co-host Scott Trench. Always a joy to hear you're in Transmendi. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, and show you that by following the proven path, you can put yourself on the road to early financial freedom and get money out of the way so you can leave your best life. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time

investments in assets like real estate or start your own business, will help you build a position capable of launching yourself towards those dreams. Super excited for today's guest. It is Chris Hogan, the Chris Hogan from the Chris Hogan show, from the Dave Ramsey show, from the book Everyday Millionaires. And I am so excited to talk to him. Very excited to interview Chris Hogan today. Chris has a very tight-knit and well-thought-out, robust philosophy around building wealth.

You're going to be familiar with some parts of it, if you're familiar with Dave Ramsey at all. And look, I know that there's a little bit of controversy within the fire community about whether, you know, some of the debt-free approaches that are espoused by the Dave Ramsey community and Chris Hogan. But I think, frankly, that if you're not willing to listen and learn from these guys very thorough, well-designed, well-thought-out philosophy around wealth building and finance, that you're missing out. And I think it's an absolute privilege to have Chris here today and learn from him. And I admire the results of their program that they've achieved for so many millions of people. You really can't argue with their results. And like I say, every episode, personal finance is

personal. This is an example of living your financial life without any debt. Here's how to get out of debt. Here's how to start building wealth. And like I said before, personal finance is personal. And this is his personal take. He does not like debt. There are a lot of people listening who also don't like debt. Frankly, I don't like debt. I don't love that I have a mortgage, but I choose to have a mortgage so that I can use that money in a different way. Because like he says, a little bit later in the show, money is a tool. I use the tool in a different way that he does. It doesn't mean my approach is less valid than his. It doesn't mean that his approach is less valid than mine. They're just different approaches. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at

their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription

with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes.

But somehow, every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season. without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals,

control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Found makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity.

Open a found account for free at found.com. That's fowund.com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Foun. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for.

mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Chris Hogan from the Chris Hogan show. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets of Money podcast. I'm so excited to have you today.

Well, thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you all. We have actually met before. I'm sure you remember. We were at FinCon together with 2,000 other people. Well, it's good to see you again. I'm sure you remember.

So, Chris, you have a book called Everyday Millionaires, where you conducted a study of over 10,000 millionaires to figure out how they became a millionaire. And what I really identified with in this book is that it isn't winning the lottery or getting generational wealth, you know, inheriting your money. It's making it yourself, doing it yourself, investing it yourself, and growing it yourself. How does somebody start when they have come from a place where they don't know anything about money? You know, that's a great question. And I think the first thing you have to do, the start point, is to believe that it's possible for you.

And I say that because if you don't believe you can, you won't. And so the mindset around it and understanding, the reason we did the largest study of millionaires ever done before was to really break down a lot of myths, to be able to help people see it and understand it, so they can then choose to believe that they can. Then the next step is grow your knowledge about money. How does this stuff work?

What are the things you need to do? And then the third aspect of it is taking action. And so really, to sum it all up in one word, how does someone start intentionally? Very intentionally. Yes, I love that. I love that. One of the big questions that we get a lot from people who listen to the show is that they listen, but their spouse doesn't. They're on board, but their spouse is not.

How do you get somebody on board who feels, I mean, the whole thing about, you know, we have to fix our finances, we have to get out of debt. That when I am not ready to hear that, that tells me I have to cut out everything that's enjoyable in my life. I have to stop doing anything fun and just buckle down and have a horrible, horrible life. And it's just not true. I think the first place to start, as I've advised people, is start from the heart. And what I mean is, is don't jump off into a litany of things that we're going to do. Don't jump off into a whole lot of things that need to be stopped being done. But start with the heart.

And what I mean is ask people about their dreams and goals for themselves. And if you have kids, start talking about your dreams and goals for your kids. See, I think the best place to start are on things that unify you, not things that divide you. And so ask questions of your spouse about their dream. And we're not judging it in this conversation. I just want you to hear it. And I want you to hear it not through your ears, but through your heart. What does it sound like?

Does it sound like encouragement? Does it sound like excitement? and then ask questions to get them to open up. You see, we naturally ask questions that are closed in. Those questions where you say yes or no. I want people to start to learn how to ask questions that are open-ended. They get people to say more and talk more about what they're feeling. So I think starting with the dream is the best place to start.

What do you think are some of the emotions that millionaires feel around money besides other than believing it's possible? What do you think that why is or that dream? Is there a unifying vision that these folks have? Well, so many of them are so intentional, not just with their money, because they're intentional about their goals and their life. They're very intentional about what they want to leave to their kids or their grandkids one day. They're extremely intentional about what they're doing day in and day out. So life doesn't just happen to them.

They happen to life. What are some, you know, when I've, we've interviewed a lot of successful people over the years. I'm wondering if you have a framework like this where it seems like a lot of millionaires or a lot of successful people, they either have written goals. They might wake up early in the morning. They might have rigid daily routines. They might read a lot. They might diet and exercise appropriately, whatever those are. Are you finding all of those things to be true? Are you finding that everyone can have exceptions? You don't have to be perfect across all of those to be successful. How do you think about those characteristics that are defining these people? No, the things you just rattled off are some of the things.

that are always on that list. Because as you look at it, it goes back to that word being intentional, where you do wake up. And I firmly believe I'm a huge goal setting person. I think having goals written down allow us to be able to look and identify what's important to us, but also to help to identify something else. Typically, when you talk about setting goals and this time of year is where people start to evaluate and obviously this COVID pandemic has turned 2020 on its ear. And so people are so ready to turn the calendar.

And I'm like, hold on a minute. We've still got a couple of months left. Don't you dare cash in. Don't stop now. But here's what happens. We're good at identifying what we want. We're not so good at identifying what we're willing to give up to get it. And so I think it's imperative to write down those sacrifices.

What am I willing to give up to make this thing happen? And so being able to do those two things together will help you stay focused. If you're trying to repeat the success of some of these millionaires that you've interviewed, what are some of the things that you're finding that they're giving up in order to get to their wealth goals or that life vision? I'm amazed at how many of them were gave up being comfortable. And being comfortable, I firmly believe this. I do a lot of leadership teaching as I travel the country, typically travel the country. Now I travel all through Zoom, right? But I found that you make a decision, do you want to be popular or do you want to be effective? If you want to be

popular, you're doing what everyone else is doing, right? You don't ever upset the apple cart. You kind of stay that path. But if you want to be effective, it means you mattered. And so I think a lot of these millionaires chose to be effective, to be effective in how they handled money, to be effective in how they're relating with other people and connecting, but also on how they dream and push themselves. I think they're constantly looking for a challenge and they're driven people. Do you have any examples of that that stick out of maybe some folks who have made that choice? Well, I can tell you the driven. You know, there's, here's, I love the research that we did inside of everyday millionaires. It got so big, we needed to use an outside research firm. I mean,

it was just a massive project. And I love the information that I provide. And there are two people based on the study and the things I learned. But I'm going to tell you something. The thing that is the most powerful thing inside of that book are the stories. The stories of people that, through time have walked it and done it. There's a story of a gentleman in there, and I don't want to mix up his name, but grew up in a tough childhood. I mean, he was in seven to nine different foster homes. His parents had, mom had mental illness, his dad was an alcoholic, spent time in seven to nine

foster homes. He had the built-in excuse, right, to not do much, just to give up and to quit. But this guy not only pushed forward, joined the military, got out, became a teacher because he cared about the hearts of other kids. And this guy ends up with a net worth of $3.5 million. And so he didn't let his circumstances prevent him from dreaming and striving. And so there are so many stories in there. People that were homeless at some point in time, but they made a decision.

And so I think those things are what people can relate with. And they go, wow, if they can do it, then I can't. Yeah, you just said that in the very beginning you said you have to believe that it's attainable. And then you just said that this study was so big you had to use an outside group. That means that there's a lot of millionaires out there who have done it. Like Scott and I interview somebody every week on this show. And frankly, the boring stories are the ones that are the most successful. Hey, I spent less than I earned.

I invested the difference. It comes back, I mean, from what's my favorite book, Scott? It's yellow. George S. Clayson, I'm totally drawing a blank on the other. The richest man in Babylon. The richest man in Babylon. Every single one of those things. That book was written in 1920.

And I'm reading through the book and I'm like, this is not new at all. We, you know, we all think that we're on this great journey. Oh, look, I'm going to share this new idea with people. It's not new. George Clayson wrote about it a hundred years ago and all the same principles are the same. Spend less than you earn. That's right. And here's the reality.

Even before he did that, you can look back and look. look in the Bible, right? You have close to a thousand scriptures on money inside the Bible. And so even before he wrote that, you begin to have a template to be able to see how we need to interact and that money is in fact a tool for us to use to build and to serve others. I love that money is a tool. Yes, it's a tool. It's a great tool as long as you know how to use that tool. There's so many tools that I don't know how to use. Oh, me either. Listen to me. If you're building something, I'm not the man to call, okay? If it's beyond a flathead or a Phillips screwdriver, it's beyond my league. But money, I can work with you on. Perfect. Well, let's talk about some more of the emotional aspects of

money, because it is very emotional. I feel attacked when somebody says, we need to fix our finances. Not me personally, but, you know, somebody listening would feel attacked. And, you know, it's so easy to read about what you have to do. And it's so difficult to actually take. the steps to do it. It's like losing weight. I know what I have to do to lose the extra baby weight that I have. I have to eat more vegetables. I have to eat less sugar. I have to not drink so much beer and exercise. But you know what's way easier? Eating sugar, drinking beer, sitting on the couch, doing nothing. It's so much easier than that. And I think that people feel attacked when it's brought up. The emotional and mental gearing on staying committed,

once you've decided to do it can be really challenging as well. I'm on the path to financial independence. I'm on the path to paying off debt. I'm on whatever my path is. Dave Ramsey, maybe you've heard of him, has these things called the baby steps. And the debt snowball is huge. Is that the first baby step? I can't remember.

Anyway, the debt's everybody listening. Yeah, baby step one is getting $1,000 in place just so you can break the habit of using debt. And then baby step two is listing your. your debt's out smallest to biggest, the debt snowball, and we're going to attack the debt that way. So I'm going to make minimum payments on everything except for the smallest, and I'm going to throw all extra money up that little one. And then once you do that and you get your money back, imagine that getting a raise without

having to go talk to your employer. You give yourself a raise because you've got more money staying with you now instead of going to debt. Once you do that, then I advise people to do your fully funded emergency fund. That's where you want to save up three to six months of expenses and have that sitting in the bank ready to pretend. you. So what's a fully funded emergency fund? You've all, Dave has always said, and you've always said three to six months with the pandemic in our, I would love to save your view mirror, but it's not,

it's in our front view mirror as well. Would you err more towards six months or have you extended that even a little bit more? No, we've actually stayed in the three to six in that range. But here's the deal. If you're self-employed and your income is kind of dependent on a lot of things, you're going to err on the side of a six-month emergency fund. But if you're both employed or you're employed, your job is stable, then a three-month emergency fund's fine. What I told people throughout the COVID pandemic was if your hours were reduced or you lost income or anything was scaled back,

you wanted to go into what I was calling conserve mode. Conserve mode meant I am going to sit on be intentional with every dollar coming in and be super intentional with every dollar going out. However, if things are normal for you, meaning your job hasn't changed, your income hasn't changed, then I'm advising people to keep the emergency fund the same and keep working through the steps. Okay, in conserved mode, let's say my job has been cut, my hours are cut, I am no longer investing, or am I still investing? No, no, you're going to shut that down.

You're going to stop that because your income is now gone. So you're going to pause investing. You're pausing everything, really. But your job one is to find another job. Like, you know, I'm talking to so many people that say, hey, I was laid off or my hours were cut back, and I'm waiting on, you know, to find out what the company's going to do, what the severance or with this or that.

And I'm like, no, no, no, dust off the resume, start to reach out to your friends, coworkers, the people you know, let them know you're looking for a job. It's so much easier to find a job when you have one. And so that's that first step. And I've been telling them a lot about my friend Ken Coleman, who's America's career coach, helping people kind of get on that path and that journey. Thank you.

You have to get a job. That is your number one priority. I was fired once. I was a terrible employee. I totally deserved to be fired at that particular job. I'm wonderful now. But my first, you know, I got fired on a Friday. I went home.

I had my little pity party over the weekend. And then Monday, I cranked out my resume. submitted it to every single thing that I wanted to work at, every single job that I felt was even remotely interesting. And this is something, I don't have the statistics, of course, on hand, but women will not apply to a job unless they feel like they meet every criteria or 90% of the criteria or something like that, whereas men will apply to a job if they are meeting like 60% of the criteria or something. And I'm totally pulling those numbers out of my nose. But it's very different. And my thought was, look, they're not going to call me up and ask me if I'm looking

for a job. They only know that I'm looking when I apply. So if it looked even remotely interesting, I applied. Because what does it cost me to email a resume? This was back when I had to mail it in. Right. I tell people, not only do I want you to apply and submit, I want you to follow up. Like, pick up the phone and call them. Find out the status of your application. Do they have it? Do they have any more questions, do they need any more information? You being proactive, listen, no one's going to advocate for you like you, right? You know you, you know your things, you know what you need to make happen for your sake and your family. So be an advocate, pick up that phone, make them tell you know so you can move on to the next thing. But the main thing is there are a lot of food delivery things

out there that are doing well, and there are multiple companies, Home Depot, Target, Amazon, there are so many companies that are hiring. So you can get a job while you're continuing to look for the next one. We had Patrice Washington on the show a few, oh, she was on episode 50, so it's been a while. This is episode 148. But she, in 2008, she and her husband had a real estate company that was flying high. And all of a sudden, everything came crashing down in the 2008 real estate crash, and they found themselves out of a job.

And her husband went from real estate broker to, working at Taco Bell. He was working as a manager at Taco Bell. And what I love about that story is he didn't say that's beneath me. He had a brand new daughter. He had a wife who couldn't work because she had complications with her pregnancy

or something like that. He had to put food on the table and he did not say, I am too good to be a manager at a fast food restaurant. I'm going to do what I need to do to put food on the table and put in money so that I can support my family. and delivering for Grubhub or I don't know all of the ones that they have.

But that doesn't mean that that is your career. Am I digging a hole here, Scott, by saying this? That doesn't mean that it has to be your whole career. But right now, when you don't have any money coming in, if you don't have food on the table, go do something that'll bring food to the table. That's exactly right. And again, think it out of the box. But here's the thing, also, Mindy and Scott, here's another thing you can

do. If you've got debt and you want to get serious about getting it out of your life, take on a second job. Take on a third one if you have to and devote that money directly toward the debt. I can't tell you, in the 15 years that I've been a part of Ramsey's Solutions, the number of stories that I've heard of engineers taking pizza delivery jobs or attorneys working at Home Depot on the weekends or doing whatever, don't let your ego get in the way of your progress. And so really start to think outside of the box and really start to think, what are options? And you really want to work together as a team with your spouse? You guys sit down together and both brainstorm ways to bring in extra money to attack this debt and get it out of your life. And each of you have three to four ideas. Don't judge the

idea. Brainstorming is getting it down on paper. You can go back and look at the validity of that idea later. That's a great tip. One of the things we've noticed, I think in a lot of the stories we've had in our show is that when we hear folks who have paid off a large amount of debt in a short period of time relative to their incomes or have built that first $200,000 in net worth where they're beginning to get on the other side of that snowball that is capitalism here, right? That there's this period of a grind where they're doing kind of what you just described, working that second job even or working crazy hours, spending very little those types of things. Have you come across that kind of all-out intensity of effort in the stories that you've worked with these millionaires?

And if so, how long do you have to sustain that in order to get ahead or to begin achieving your goals? Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, it goes back to believing that it's possible for you, regardless of your background, regardless of where you come from. And then I talked about growing your knowledge, right, and then taking the right actions. So I think it becomes more of a mindset and a lifestyle as opposed to just an event. An event is something that just occurs once, right? But when you have a mindset shift or lifestyle shift, what you're talking about is now you're thinking and doing differently consistently. It becomes a way of living for you.

And so I tell people, you know, like getting out of debt, it's a sprint. And in college I ran track, ran the 100 and the 200. And so an all-out sprint is where you give all this effort. in the short distance. But I had crazy friends of mine that would run the two mile, right, or run marathons. I don't do those. I have a car, right? I'm driving. But when you're running a marathon, what are you doing? You're at a consistent speed over time. And so I think building wealth is more like that marathon. Getting out of debt is that sprint. But either way, both of them require moving forward. Both of them require that I'm not going to stay the same. I'm going to improve and I'm

to push myself. I love it. I think that's a fantastic answer to that. We've seen some folks really sprint over there to get to get ahead. And I think there is a component to that and it's great. I agree. And listen, people can run faster than they think they can. Like a friend of mine, I'll never forget, we were little, we were like 10 or 11 years old and we were walking through this field. I grew up in Kentucky, so there are fields everywhere. We were walking through this field and this dog comes after us. Like, it comes running, sprinting. at us. And we had about 50 yards to get to a fence to get over. And this friend, you know, who would claim that he was not fast, outran me to this fence. Because, I mean, I knew all I had to

do was be faster than him, right? And then the dog would get him and I'm going to survive. It's okay. Fear, focus, and just pure drive can make us do things we don't think we're capable of doing. And so to your listeners out there that you say, you know what, this can. never changed for me. This is the way it's been. This is the way it's always going to be. I want to tell you that's a lie. All you have to do is decide right there where you are right now. Decide that you're going to do better because better's available. And you're going to try right in that moment. And if you have this debt for 10 years, please don't think you're going to get out of debt in 10 minutes. Right. You've had this for 10 years. Be reasonable with yourself in your time frame.

Be reasonable with yourself with your expectations. But please, please. Please. be reasonable with your plan. And so you follow our process of the baby steps. I promise you, it works. Do you think that fear is a big motivator for folks in that sprint phase versus, is there like a positive motivator maybe for the marathon? I think fear is very real. And yes, I think for certain people, fear can be a motivator. For example, my son once, he told me his team lost a basketball ball game. He was like 11, and they lost by like 20 points. And he's up in his room, and I always give them 30 minutes to pout, be frustrated, irritated, then we got to talk about it, right? Because I want him to be a healthy competitor. But my son told me once, he goes, I hate losing more than I love winning.

And it struck me, and I went, wait a minute, say that again. And he said it. He goes, I hate losing more than I love winning. And I went and wrote it down. I had to like think on this. I'm like, this kid's like little Socrates or something. Where is that coming from? But the desire to not fail can push us. The desire to be better than what we've come from. And there are several stories in my book, Everyday Millionaire, of people that made decisions at 9, 10, and 11 years old, that they were going to be different.

That there wasn't going to be this fear of not having food. There wasn't going to be this fear of not being able to have some nice things. And so there's something to be said about making that decision. And I think it's a mind switch. I think it's a way of looking at things totally different. And it's also about the internal drive. So fear can motivate us in a positive way, but you don't want to let fear take control. Like you don't want to become obsessive-compulsive about it.

You want to have a healthy view. That's exactly how my husband was motivated to be better with finances. His father was an electrician in Chicago. And a union electrician, when you're a union electrician, You have a lot of work in the summer and then you get laid off in the winter because it's cold outside and there's nobody doing any building in the winter. So every year was the same thing. And he's like, why is this such a cycle? Why are we always worried about this?

You know, it's feast or famine all the time every single year. Like you should be able to predict this. That's right. You know, it just, it's back to mindset like you said. Well, and it's also a matter of looking at. the situation. Like, I talk to a lot of people who are self-employed, and they'll fall in that cycle. So one of the things I do, I consult with 10 or 12 companies a year and work with them and help them improve their people and their processes. But one of the things that I ask them is,

what is your cycle? Like, what's the downtime in the company where revenue goes down or profits aren't as high? And what I'm identifying is, A, they can always tell me, right? They can always say, well, the summertime or the wintertime or best. And I go, okay, so it's not a surprise. Like Christmas being in December is not a surprise. It's there every year. So if we know this cycle, what can we do about it? What are some things to start to do to put into place?

And this is, to be honest with you, where the emergency fund, I think this year, this COVID situation, gave more validation to us talking about the emergency fund more than ever. It's where people started to really wake up and look at it and go, Yes, I do need a cushion between life and me. Yes, I do need to make sure I've got money that's sitting there, not invested, but an emergency fund that's ready to protect me in down times. Oh, you said sitting there.

Where is it sitting there? Is it just like a regular old bank account? I know everybody wants to get the highest amount of interest possible. Well, here's the deal. The emergency fund is insurance. It's not an investment. It's going to ensure that you have money that's there to protect you and your family. if you were to lose your job or get ill.

So I've advised people just to park it in a money market account because it needs to remain liquid, which means I need to be able to get to it if I have an emergency. So park it in a money market account is going to give you a better rate of return than a regular savings account. But the goal is not to grow this money. That's not an investment. The goal is for that money to sit there, ready,

willing and able to help you if and when the time comes. That is something I have never heard. heard somebody say, I've never heard anybody actually articulate before. That's perfect. Yeah, your emergency, everybody wants to get, you know, the best return on your emergency fund. It's not an investment. You're not looking for the best return. I love that. It's not an investment. It's insurance. And I think that's also, I appreciate the compliment, but a lot of people have told me that's helped them to see it differently. But here's the thing, as we're talking about this, I have to say this. Once you have that emergency fund in place, if and when you,

ever have to use it. Job number one is to replace it. Okay, don't keep going on with life as normal. So if someone lost their job and they were out of work for 30 days, which there's no reason to be out of work for 30 days. I mean, there's something you can do to bring an income, right? Because we want to protect the emergency fund. So if I get money coming in, it means I don't have to use my emergency fund. But if you had to use that for 30 days, once you get your income stabilized, job one is to replace that amount in your emergency fund. So you always want to be at three or six months at all times. So I've got a question here that I, you know, I struggle with this when I was starting out of my financial journey. And the reason I struggle was because I was so aggressive.

I was sprinting when I started out because I was, I don't know what, what was necessarily motivated maybe a fear, maybe just a deep desire to become independent in general. But I began saving greater than 50% of my income. And so when you're saving greater than 50% of your income, you're accumulating one month of emergency reserve every month. Right. Right. So to me, I didn't value at that time the, I do now. I have actually a larger than three to six month emergency reserve, but I didn't value the emergency reserve in a liquid sense the same way that I do now because of my intense savings rate and those types of getting started out there. Does your advice differ for somebody that is really going completely aggressive and trying to build wealth

with no bad debts for those types of things? Well, balance. We've got to have some balance, which means, yes, it's awesome to be able to have. That's the kind of the thing I disagree with a fire movement, right? Like the fire movement, but they want you to just put all the money, invest it all, don't do anything. Like, eat a cracker a day or something and just put it all in there and then rely on credit card miles and points and all this other stuff. Like, listen here, Right. We got to live. We got stuff we want to do. And it's okay to do some stuff. And it's okay to be super aggressive. But I want you to kind of check in your spirit how you're feeling. If you're feeling limited that you can't enjoy stuff or you're committed to this and you feel trapped by it, that's dangerous. Because what's going to happen is you're going to fall off the wagon and you're going to go do some stupid big like car payment or you know, you guys remember the Atkins diet. Yeah. Mindy you were talking about the diet. So I'm bringing this up. You remember the Atkins diet.

Like I did the Atkins diet for about, hold on. I think it was two hours, right? Lost my mind. I needed a potato chip people. I did. I was losing my mind. But I think that's what happens a lot of times when people are hyper-focused. They get so focused and they're running.

They don't realize that, man, my gears are running down. And that's like a car. Even a Lamborghini, you know, that's registered at 325 miles an hour or something. You can't redline that engine for so long, right? It'll burn up. The oil. The engine will lock up. I think the same is said for us and how we chase goals.

There's a time to sprint. There's a time to really sprint. But then there's also a time to kind of pull back a little bit and go, I need a break. My knees bothering me. I need a break. And the crazy thing is, is with any kind of exercise, if you don't stop or give your body a break, your body will make you. And I think oftentimes that's what happens with our goals financially.

Awesome. When you think about the journey of these millionaires, and we're using our sprint versus marathon analogy. I imagine that the vast majority achieved it mostly through a long marathon over a period of years and inconsistencies. And I imagine that chunks of that were automated or very regular and sustainable with that. You're right. Absolutely.

The number one tool these millionaires said that they used was company retirement plans, 401Ks, 403Bs, IRAs, and Roth IRAs. And so it wasn't some magic formula. It was consistently investing month after month. Close to 70% of them said that they used an investment professional. So they weren't doing it on their own. They were consistently investing. You're absolutely right.

And there wasn't a magic formula. And here's the crazy thing. A third of the millionaires. Remember, we talked over 10,000 of them. A third of them never made a six-figure household income. I want you to hear something. I said household income. That meant if two people were working, they combined together didn't make $100,000.

But yet they still, over time, invested and became everyday millionaires. So it's not, like Mindy said in the beginning, it's not about this super high income. And I think it was really important for me to chop down these myths. You know, they didn't go to fancy schools. They didn't take ridiculous leverage schemes or use cryptocurrency. I needed to break these myths down because I needed people to go. Oh, I can do it. Oh, I don't have to belong into this special club.

I can make a decision and walk a path just like these other everyday people. I am going to have you say that again. One third of all the people that you talked to didn't make a six-figure household income. Correct. So I've been a part of the personal finance space and the fire movement community in general for about seven years. I mean, my whole life. I've been frugal my whole life.

But I have watched it kind of evolved from this. You have to do everything super extreme to, hey, I can allow things to come back into my life and it's okay and, you know, while still focusing on it. But I think that one of the underrepresented groups in that space is the people who make less than $100,000 a year. Personally, or as a household or whatever, you can. still do it. You can still get there.

Scott, we had Sarah, the Go Budget Girl. She was on the Dave Ramsey show. She did her debt-free scream. And she was making she paid off $30,000 in debt in three years while making $30,000.

Which to me is an incredibly inspiring story because she was making basically a living wage and still paying off a ton of of debt. You can do this even if you don't make $100,000. You really can. And it's just, again, understanding that's why the stories are inside the book. I want people to be able to read, relate, and then go, right? And it's a matter of hearing it. And until we believe, I don't think

anything changes. Nothing changes until we start to believe that, A, it's possible or it's worthwhile. I think with both of those, when you believe it's possible and you believe it's worthwhile, that gives us the fuel to continue to push and strive even when we get tired. So let's look at somebody who has gotten to the point where they've paid off all their debt. How do you continue to be inspired to grow your wealth and not slip back into old habits of, you know, oh, I paid off all my debt. Now I can go charge something. Or, you know, because it's, it's super inspiring and motivating to see, oh, I just paid off a whole credit card. I now never have to pay Visa again. And now I can attack my master.

card and that one's gone too and Amex is gone and I'm getting these wins. But when you're saving money for retirement, it can't, it can be less exciting to, you know, oh, wow, 10%. Now my dollar's worth $1.10. Right. I think the big thing is, as far as getting out of debt and making sure you don't go back, as I tell people is, once you pay off that credit card, I want you to shut it down, close it. Don't allow the door to be cracked for that kind of crazy to come back into your life. Because debt's just a thief. It steals from your peace of mind. It steals from your income.

It also steals from your future. Because if you're spent paying toward debt, you're not investing. But I think the thing that motivates me are my dreams, the stuff that I want to do in retirement. I've got a free tool at my website called the Retire Inspired Quotion, the R IQ. And it's a free tool that helps people understand how much you're going to need to to live your dream retirement. But it takes it a step further within that. On the initial, it helps people start to tap into their dream.

Like, you've got to know what it is you're chasing. Like, I had rock star grandparents growing up. So I know for me, without a shadow of a doubt, one of my life goals is to be a rock star grandparent. You know, my boys are younger right now. They're 16, 15, and 14. So I got a long ways to go. But I want to be able to have the time to spend with those grandbabies when they get here.

I want life experiences. I want to travel. There are places I want to go see. And so what I'm helping people do is to tap into the dream. Because you're right, getting out of debt is intense, and it's this short period of time, and you can see the enemy. With building wealth, there's not necessarily an enemy. You're chasing a dream.

And so you've got to be able to see it. You've got to be able to tap into it. And you've got to believe that you're worthy of that. And I think when people do that, they can shift from that sprint mentality to more of a marathon lifestyle mentality as they sustain it. Because if you do what we talk about and invest the way that we guide you, you still have money left over to live. And I think that's what helps people to sustain the journey. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going. And more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused

on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth, all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsor jobs helps you. stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page

where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job. more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest

registered agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides, who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to

guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data and all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit northwest registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. When the weather cools down, Golden Nugget Online Casino turns up the heat. This winter, make any moment golden and play thousands of games like her new slot Wolf at and all the fan-favored

Huff and Puff games. Whether you're curled up on the couch or ticking five between snow shovels, play winner's hottest collection of slots from brand new games to the classics you know and love. You can also pull up your favorite table games like Blackjack, Rulet, and Crops, or go for even more excitement

with our library of live dealer games. Download the Golden Nugget Online Casino app and you've got everything you need to layer on the fun this winter. in partnership with Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call ConX Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600. 19 and over. Physically President Ontario.

Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggettcasino.com for details. Please play responsibly. I've got a question here moving in a slightly different direction with this. We have a tactic that we really like along the wealth building journey here. And let me set this up for a moment here. When we look at the average Americans household spending, right, 50% or two-thirds of that spending is going to be in three categories. Housing, transportation, and then food consumption.

The remaining third is going to have a lot of the things like insurance, entertainment, those types of variable expenses. One of the tricks we like here at Bicker Pockets is this concept called house hacking. And what I mean by that is you buy a house, you use a mortgage. For example, my first hope was a dupe. I bought a duplex. I moved into one of the units. I rented out the other unit and used that to help the rent from the other unit to cover my mortgage expense and live for free. Have you come across this tactic? What are kind of your reactions or thoughts to a strategy like that in terms of helping jumpstart the wealth building process? Well, I think there are many ways out there to get to our goal. I think, you know, one of the things that that I advise people to do, obviously, with like homes, you know, is the, you know, at minimum, always a 10% down. I'd love you to do a 20% down so you avoid PMI, which is private mortgage insurance. That protects the lender, not you, and can add $150 to $500 a month of your payment.

So the down payment's crucial. But I tell people a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage, that's really the only debt I'm okay with people having. But the process by which to pay that off, here's the deal. I'm all about building wealth. I am not about debt. So I want to hurry up and eliminate debt quickly out of my life. So now my income is working for me. So I think there are many ways to get people to jumpstart and think. I just don't want them taking on leveraged debt schemes, right? And those schemes are things where you're taking on more debt and risk for the appearance of growing wealth later. I'm just an anti-debt guy. I've seen what it does and I don't like it. And so I want people to be really intentional even about, you know, getting out of credit card debt. But I want you to also attack and pay

off that house. Like, I want you to bring your dreams, your goals, your family with you in retirement. I don't want you to bring a mortgage if you can avoid it. So this is a really big debate and the pay it off versus keep your mortgage. And, you know, I think that's a personal choice because like you said, you're an anti-debt guy. You want no debt. And that's great. That's probably from like your childhood. Did you have any? No, no. It's grown from my. knowledge. I know how to count. I know one plus one equals two. And I know three minus two equals one. So it's just learning how to add. And again, I don't want obligations, right? I want to be able to be smart. And so whether that's selling the home and downsizing or whatever it is, you pay that bad boy off,

now that mortgage payment can go work for you instead of going to the lender. And so it's just a mindset. It's looking at it and understanding. But I want most importantly, my mission is to educate, and empower as many people as I can while I'm on this planet. And that means I want to help people understand that building wealth is possible, but they can also chase their dreams down. And I don't want people working until they're 75 or 80 and not enjoying life. I think there's so many ways we can give back with our time, our talent, and our money, if we free ourselves up.

And so a few years of sacrifice can equal you many years of peace. Oh, that's good. I am on the same page as you. We're on the same team. You said that you want a 15-year fixed, and I would be curious as to why 15 instead of 30. I know that you pay off the loan sooner, so you're paying less interest, but the 15-year mortgage payment is going to be higher than a 30-year mortgage payment. So with a 15-year mortgage payment, you have to pay off your mortgage in 15 years. Like, that's the only, that's the longest amount of time you have.

Whereas in 30, you have a little bit more flexibility. You could pay it off in 15 or 5 or 10 or whatever. You don't have to. You could let it lengthen. And again, this comes from the place of this is a common debate on our website. And so I'm just curious as your feeling. Yeah. Well, I select a 15-year fix for that very reason, just so it does give you an opportunity to get it out of your life.

it does cut out hundreds of thousand dollars of interest going to the bank. But I'm going to be honest with you, I initially, before I knew Dave, I took out a 30 year. And I said, you know, I'm going to pay it off in 20. And for three to four months out of the year, I paid extra. But for those other months out of the year, I didn't. So it was a thing that I intended to do, but I didn't stick to. So having it structured as a fixed payment for you, number one, you know at the end of the day, the maximum, it's going to take me as 15.

Now, we found out through the survey, most millionaires are paying theirs off in 11.2 years, because, again, they're looking at it and they're counting. They're not trying to hold on to a house. The debate is, and again, we're in the presidential debate season, so I'm riled up and feisty.

I'm ready. But the debate people say, yes, Chris, I'm going to keep the mortgage because I'm going to deduct the payment. Well, number one, that's only if you itemize, A, that you do that, and B, I say this, pay off the house. And instead of itemizing and writing off the interest from the mortgage,

how about you do this? Pay off the house and then go give to a single parent charity. Go give to a wounded veterans function. And that donation is something you can deduct as well. And so the main thing is about risk. That equals risk. It needs a payment every month. It doesn't care if you get sick. It doesn't care if you lose your job. It doesn't even care if your child is ill. It wants a payment. does this take. So I advise people, let's get on a shorter term. Let's pay this thing off. The people I'm talking to on the Chris Hogan show, I've heard a few people say they paid theirs off in 12 years or 13. Listen, I want you chasing down your dreams. So do the math, figure out your plan. And as I tell people that you're married, I want you and your spouse to be an agreement. It doesn't matter what I say.

I want you guys to be in agreement and have a plan. I'm just telling people what I've done, what I've scene and what works. What does financial freedom look like for a millionaire who kind of meets a lot of these criteria? Is it a paid off house, well-funded retirement accounts, a three to six months emergency reserve? And where does that maybe passive income come from someone who wants to retire at 50, 55 with this debt-free scenario that you're describing? Yeah, well, you know, passive income, you have options with that, right? Like obviously people will think through and they'll think about businesses that they're looking to start or, you know, options there, which I think is a great opportunity. I think, you know, one of my other things that I'm, I kind of disagree with the fire movement on is that

A, it's, it, A, they talk about using credit cards from the things that I've read, but it's all a matter of leaving the job. Like, you're, you're trying to leave. And I want people to, no, no, no, I want you to retire towards your dreams, retire toward things you enjoy, go volunteer, go mentor, go spend time at a retirement home and walk around and hang out with some of the people in there. You'll hear some awesome stories. And so passive income is an option, but again, you know me, I'm the anti-debt guy. So as I do that, even though it might be passive income, it's going to come from saved money. That's how I started the business. And so I think it's really smart to think. But again, you guys, we've got to be aware. There are so many shady

people out there and so many shady schemes that we have to always be on going. Like, don't even give me start on the cryptocurrency thing. I talk about it in the book, right? Like, you're going to give a dollar amount to this thing I can't touch. It's code, you know? I'm like, really? I touch Benjamin's, right? I fold them.

I put them in my pocket. I can't put code in my pocket. But anyway, I digress. But I think it's one of those understanding what you want, understanding your risk tolerance, but then being aware of, hey, is this a hobby or is this a business, right? My friend, Christy Wright, she teaches women how to start business. and business boutique. And she goes, if it's a hobby, it's just something you enjoy. If it's a

business, this thing starts to bring in some money. So I think even though we're striving for passive income, we've got to understand what it is, can it make money, how much can it make, and when will it start making it? Would you have any creative examples from some of the millionaires you've studied that are in ways that they're able to do that without any debt whatsoever? Well, a lot of them saved up. Like there was one guy out of Kansas. He and his wife over the years, over a 15-year period, bought close to 3,000 acres of land, right, in Kansas. They were hyper-intentional. They pay cash every year and acquire land. And so one of the things that they're doing with this land that they own outright is they're leasing it out to farmers to be

able to grow hay or for cattle. And so it's one of those things where, hey, they're paying the property taxes and the insurance on this. But this thing is bringing in so much revenue for them, You know, that he is a farmer and she's a school teacher. And so they can retire whenever they want, right? They got themselves out of debt and they have this money coming in and land isn't going anywhere. You know, like it's one of those things. You're always going to have developers potentially calling you, right, or other farmers or rotating crops. So, you know, farming is one way. Another way, obviously, is starting, there's so many business opportunities out there. You know, throughout this COVID situation, one of the things that I went back and I

looked at. In 2007 to 2009, the Great Recession, we had more businesses thought up and created during that time. And so it's crazy what can happen when we look at a situation, but also start to make decisions about, hey, what can I impact, right? What can I control? And so I think it's good to incubate and think about options, you know, but you need to understand what's the risk, what's my risk tolerance, and when is it going to make money for me? And how much do I need it to make. I think those are all crucial. Yeah, I know two investors locally who both kind of got started the same way in real estate investing. Both did use some leverage to get started. But one decided to aggressively pay down his portfolio of 12, 15 homes and is completely debt-free right now.

The other is, yeah, the other is working on becoming a billionaire. The problem is, no, no, well, it's not, it's not because that one guy is working this business. He's in a whole bunch of trouble right now with the pandemic. He's got all these different issues that are going on. And the other guy became ill, but his portfolio is completely paid off and is able to work on that. So two different visions and a departure point, you know, after that first 10 or 12 properties with very similar approaches, different, well, goals there, different life flexibility and outcomes that come as a part of that, in spite of the big goal of being a billionaire. Yeah, but they also now have different kind of stress levels, right?

And so there are multiple paths to be able to get there. I think it's really a matter of figuring out what we want. Like for me, you know, I plan to work. I'm having a blast. I love what I'm doing. But at some point, I'm going to go work in a college and teach communications or speech or business, you know, a couple of days a week. And then I'm going to go travel.

I'm going to go do stuff, right? And so it's important to know what it is you're chasing, but why it matters to you. And your time frame, like that's really big. That'll impact the decisions you make. Yeah, there's a, you know, one of the books that we like to talk about sometimes on the show is the four-hour work week. And there's a concept there that applies to this about lifestyle design. You're just, you're building your end state, you know, with that end lifestyle in mind and backing into that. And then I think that there's a lot of merit to the idea of like, how do I do that with the least amount of risk possible in my overall financial position, such as through a debt-free approach when that time comes. You know, that's right. Like what we have. We have. We, have respect for all the ways that people are building wealth. But at the end state, wouldn't it be good to not have any debt to end an ability to fund exactly the lifestyle that you want with a giant surplus? That's right. Well, and I've talked to people that are self-employed, and obviously they

leverage when they started out. But their mindset is they're attacking and paying some of the debt, but they're also growing their company. And so for them, their exit strategy is they essentially one day sell the company, right, and take the money and then be able to move on. But I've got friends that also they have their kids working with them. And so what I tell them as individuals is listen to me. If you want to hand the business to your kids, that's great. Have that initial plan. But that means you personally need to build wealth.

So selling the company doesn't become part of your parachute. And so it's just a matter of having the end in mind, right? Let's see this thing clearly and work the path. I want to leave kind of your listeners with this. I advise people how to make two-year decisions. And what I mean by that, you want to make a decision today. that you're going to look back on in two years and you're glad that you made it. Now, that requires you to pull out and look ahead.

It requires us to be uncomfortable and maybe go through a period of tough time or sacrifice. But what it does is it sets you up on a trajectory to be more in control, more aware, and also moving forward towards your dream. So that two-year decision can help people really start to think differently. That's a really good point because two years, I could do a lot of things for two years. It's only two years. It's not the rest of my life. That's a great way to frame that and think about that.

Okay, Chris, I really appreciate your time today. Do you have time for our famous four questions? Sure, let's make it happen. Okay, what is your favorite finance book? Oh, the favorite finance book without a shadow of a doubt is Total Money Makeover. Yeah, that was the book that changed the game. Yeah, that's the book that changed the game for me. That's by Dave Ramsey, and people can pick up a copy.

Just get over to date ramsay. You are not the first person to recommend that book. I'll also co- recommend that book. It's just a fantastic book. Everyone should read it. There's certainly some debate independence community, but that's a fantastic book. I've read it multiple times and find a lot of value every time. Very good.

What is your biggest money mistake? Oh, my gosh. My biggest money mistake was going to look at an SUV. Okay? I went looking and guess what came home with me. An SUV. An SUV and a payment. It was stupid.

And if I could go back and stop me, I wouldn't have gone to look. You know what? The car is one of the most frequently answered. What are the most frequently frequent answers to that question? Yes. Yes. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Best piece of advice for people just starting out, start right where you are.

Don't try to go back and think you can fix the past. and don't try to hurry up to the future. Just start right where you are and believe that you can. 1,000% agree. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Well, when you're the father of three teenage boys, I'm not going to sit here and tell you there the joke,

but I have a lot of stories. I got a lot of stuff I can talk about. And I work with a lot of cool people here at Ramsey Solutions. And so I've got a lot of good friends. So constantly have a lot of people. of stories. I love to laugh. I love to have a good time. So between working here and those three boys, I got a lot of content. Do you have any that you'll be able to share with us today? Well, these boys are hilarious. Their newest thing is they want me to go skydiving. And, you know,

which is a scary thought. You all, I obey the law. Gravity is a law. When you're my size, as a former football player, you know you're supposed to stay on the ground. ground. And so there are jokes about dad being scared or dad's a chicken. I go, I'm not a chicken. I'm smart. I'm going to stay on the ground. And so once they want to go do it, I will take them and I'll go up in the airplane and cheer them on. But that's been the latest thing. The skydiving thing is hilarious. I went skydiving. It was a once in a lifetime experience for me. Will you ever do it again, Scott? Once in a lifetime. No. Okay. He said more. There you go. Absolutely. I live near a skydiving place, and it's fun to watch them, but I stay on the ground.

Yes, ma'am. We share things in common. Scott's the crazy person. He is the crazy one. Okay, Chris, I know people already know the answer to this question, but where can people find out more about you? Yeah, to find out more about me and my show and both books, retire inspired and everyday millionaires,

just go to Chris Hogan 360.com, Chris Hogan-360.com, and you can find it all there. And we will link to all of that in the show notes here at biggerpockets.com slash money show 148 as well. This was fabulous. Chris, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. Okay, you too. We appreciate you.

Bye-bye. Okay, Scott, that was Chris Hogan. What did you think? I thought it was a great episode. I really learned a lot from him. Man, his voice is so incredible. I always remember it with a jolt about how, you know, Yeah, wish I could sound like that.

No, I learned a lot from him. Because I'm not interacting with Dave Ramsey content or Chris Hogan content on an everyday basis, sometimes I forget about the why behind a lot of their rationale around no debt, around the baby steps and those types of things. And when you hear it from them, it's just such a powerful concept and powerful and simple. And again, you said it in the intro. the results that this program has produced speak for themselves in a lot of ways. So I always admire the Dave Ramsey Network, including Chris Hogan and all the other wonderful hosts

they have over there and have learned a lot from their books and their podcasts. And it was grateful to have a chance to learn from Chris today. I was super excited to talk to him. He keeps saying things. I'm like, yep, I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I really don't have much to add to his show.

because it was so good. He chooses not to have debt. And if you don't want debt either, this show is absolutely reaffirming to you that you don't have to have debt in your life and you can still become financially independent. You can still retire early if you choose. You can still do all those things without having any debt.

Even your mortgage. Well, he didn't specifically say this. I am encouraged that maybe the idea of house hacking could work under the Dave Ramsey and Chris Hogan model. Maybe it's just a matter of putting 10, 20% down and a 15-year mortgage in order to house hack your way or dramatically accelerate your journey to financial independence because you're allowing now your tenants to help you even more aggressively pay off that mortgage. So that was a fun one to hear Chris's opinions on that. Yeah, I think house hacking is a perfect compliment to their entire strategy. Yes, you probably need to

a mortgage in order to house hack, but when you're not paying any of your own income towards your mortgage, that's just better. I don't know. And then I'd imagine that you, I'd imagine I'm extrapolating here. I should have asked this more. But I imagine that the idea would be to pay off your first house hack while living in there with the mortgage there. And then repeat the exercise before, you know, if you're going to get any more debt or save

up cash for the next investment as well. So something along those lines probably. But we'll have to bring it back and find out next time. Ooh, that would be great. Okay, the show notes for today's episode can be found at biggerpockets.com slash money show 148. We would love to know what you thought about this episode. Please share your thoughts at our Facebook group, which is located at facebook.com slash groups slash BP money. Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. From episode 100. 48. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen and we will see you later, Alligator, because I didn't look anything up. After a while, Crocodile. Okay, bye.