BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 171: Putting Happiness Over a Bigger Paycheck with Brandon Richard Austin

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

Most people would consider $80,000 a year a respectable salary, but what if you were making that much during college? That’s what today’s guest, Brandon Richard Austin, made in his sophomore year. As a journalism major, he started doing freelance writing work, and a client of his ended up offering him a remote position on the team.  So there Brandon was, making $80,000 a year, working 12 hour days, all while juggling school at the same time. Thankfully, Brandon wasn’t a big spender. He didn’t go out and buy a new car, a new watch, or even move out of his parents’ house. Brandon was able to start investing in index funds and early cryptocurrencies, netting him some pretty stable returns (at least from the index funds). After completing college and still having a very low cost of living, Brandon asked himself if the job was worth all the stress. He decided it wasn’t and voluntarily chose to take a pay cut to work somewhere else where he was happier and had more control of his work. Brandon still lives at home and advocates doing the same for people his age. Not having a housing cost (or having very low housing costs) is one of the best ways to put yourself on the path to financial freedom. This low cost of living situation has allowed Brandon to be on the path to financial independence while still valuing his happiness. In This Episode We Cover Why many people who grew up frugal feel guilt when spending money  The importance of tracking your little purchases so they don’t add up Whether or not taking a pay cut is worth less stress/more freedom Why index funds are such a great asset to hold for the long term Setting your financial freedom goal and seeing it as a marathon, not a race Minimizing your housing costs as much as possible (especially when you’re young) Developing an investment philosophy that speaks to you And So Much More! Check the full show notes here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/moneyshow171 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 171, where we speak with Brandon Austin from Rinkie Do Finance and talk about leaving a high paying job and reaching financial independence on your own schedule. Don't try to outsmart the market. I know a lot of people, they look at market or like, you know, market movements in hindsight. Like with Tesla right now, for example, they'll look and say, oh, if I bought here, I would have, you know, made $100,000. And it's very easy to look at charts, you know, just the way charts are. You can look at them and think that way, but it just doesn't work like that. You know, you need to, I would say, be more practical in terms of, and recognize that hindsight is 2020. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me, as always, is my enterprising co-host, Scott Trench. Ah, well, you're always just so resourceful in coming up with these, Mindy.

Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is a, for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate, or start your own business. We'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so that you can live life on your terms and pursue your dreams.

Scott, I am super excited to being Brandon in today from Rinkie-Doo Finance. We talk to him about the show name. We get a song stuck in your head if you're from the late 80s and had a babysitting job. And we also talk about reaching financial independence on your own schedule. We discussed leaving a high-paying job. That was really interesting to me that he left a high-paying job and purposely took a lower-paying job, which is something I think a lot of people struggle with. Yeah, I think that it's an interesting take on finance and something that, like, hey,

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Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Brandon Austin from Rinky Do Finance. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thank you very much for having me. It's great to be here. Okay, before we get into your actual money story,

I got to ask you about the name Rinky Do Finance. So everybody asked me this question. There was a TV show when I was a kid that I used to watch on TV called The Elephant Show. And the theme song was Skinny Merinky, Rinky, Dinkie, Skinner, Rinky Doo, which I know is a common, a common, song, but it was, yeah, exactly. So I wanted a name that was playful and would be, you know, not intimidating to people that were just getting into personal finance. And so Rinky Due Finance, it's very playful, it's fun. It's like, you can't possibly be intimidated reading articles on

a site called Rinky Do Finance with like a cute little elephant as its logo. You know, that's a really good idea, because there's a lot of personal finance bloggers that take themselves way too seriously. This is intimidating stuff. I mean, you're learning about money in many cases for the first time. So to have a, hey, this isn't going to be mean and difficult, that's really great. Okay, check them out. Anyway, Brandon, let's get to your money story now. Where does your journey with money begin?

Growing up, we weren't rich by any means. You know, we always had food to eat, but we weren't buying Xboxes or like eating out all the time. So I was very conscious of the limitations of my financial situation as a kid. And so when I started earning money, it took me a while to get comfortable with the idea of having money and being able to spend on items that I loved and being able to travel and do things like that. So it actually took a while for me to adjust my view of myself to the point where I was able to have fun with money and do things that as a kid I never did because I was always conscious of the fact that we lived, we rented an apartment for, most of my childhood. And for my parents to save up a down payment, it took them years of, you know, saving up what now would be a pretty modest down payment on a house because prices have climbed so high. And so I was always conscious to that. And it sort of limited my personal

view of how I was able to spend money. I have that problem today. And my husband and I have reached financial independence and we still, I'm still working. I make a good salary. I have a real estate agent job. I make ridiculous salary last year from real estate agenting, but it's still really hard to part with money when you grow up frugal like that. Or you have the complete opposite experience and you grew up frugal so you cannot spend it fast enough. So I find that interesting. I identify with your treatment of growing up, not necessarily poor, but not with just like money to whenever. Yeah.

Okay. So what does high school and college look like for you? So high school was pretty much more the same. Well, you know what? We did move the year prior to me going to high school. So we did move into a house that my parents own. So that was sort of a step up. Like I wasn't in the same environment of being in a rented apartment with messy garbage everywhere and all that sort of stuff.

So it was a step up. college was when things started to change because that's when I got my first job. The summer after the first year of college, I started making money. And that was really when I started to have a hard time adjusting to the fact that I now had money to spend because I still lived with my parents. I still live with my parents to the day, actually. But at the time, I was living with my parents. And any money I earned was largely disposable income. So it was very difficult for me to adjust to, you know, spending on not so much little things because I did have an impulse problem in terms of buying little like junk food and and sort of random little things.

But larger things, it was tough for me to adjust to that. What kind of money are we talking about? Are we $10 an hour, $50,000 over the summer? No, $50,000. That would have been nice. 50,000 over summer. No, it was like $10,000 over summer freelance writing and also working at a warehouse. And then in my second year of college was when things really started to pick up. Like I was making $80,000 a year as a writer. I had one really big client that would send me a lot of work. As a sophomore in college?

Yep. Did you drop out? I would have dropped out. No, but what I used to do is I would be, because I studied journalism. So a lot of what we were doing was, you know, writing articles. And so I would be kind of in class working on articles for work, basically working full time and in school at the same time. I was just lucky enough to have a remote job where I could do that.

It was insane, though, like the amount of hours they put in. Was this how you paid for college? No, so my parents actually paid for college, which huge help. Like my parents have helped me so much. So they paid for college. Let me live with them everything. It's been a fantastic help for me financially. So just imagine, you know, you're a kid, your parents are paying for college,

you're living at home, and you're making $80,000 a year. It was just a complete change. That's an awesome. Start with this. What was your financial position like when you graduated college? So when I graduated, it continued. Like I was still making $80,000 a year for a couple years after that. you know, the issue was, well, not so much an issue, like not as big of an issue as maybe some people

have, but I wasn't necessarily thinking consciously about saving. I was, you know, I would spend my money on a lot of little things and kind of whatever was left would get saved. And I would always walk around with the sort of guilt because I knew I was making good money and, you know, the sort of money that if either of my parents were making that sort of money, when I was kid, my childhood would have been completely different. So I always sort of had this guilt regarding, you know, okay, I'm spending really impulsively. I'm not keeping a whole lot of the money when I was in college particularly. And yeah, so, but I didn't know how to really address that. Like I wasn't conscious of, you know, okay, how do I start budgeting? Like, does this mean I have to

stop spending money altogether? Like, how do I approach this? So I want to go back to what you just said. You said I was making a lot of money and I was spending little bits and saving whatever else was left over. That's huge because, and did you recognize it at the time? Because I see that happening with a lot of people. They're like, well, I don't really have any money to save. You're not trying to save.

You're not saving first and spending what's left over. You're spending first and saving what's left over. And that's a huge mindset that you have to change. in order to become successful with your finances, in my opinion. Right. Yeah. So I would have points where I would think about, you know, okay, how much money did I make in the last couple of months?

And then I would think, okay, I made that much money and I only have this much to show for it. Like something went wrong along the way, obviously. And the fact that it was a lot of little things made it difficult to recognize because it wasn't like, you know, I was going on vacations all the time or spending, you know, like $5,000 here on this thing, $5,000 on that thing. No, it was, you know, like at most $1,000 on, you know, a big ticket item like once every few months. And then everything else was just kind of, you know, eating out every day, buying lots of junk food, going to the bar all the time with

my friends, which is a big one. Yeah. I think one of the big questions here is a lot of people don't make $80,000 in a year after the graduate of college. How did you go about getting this income in the first place without a degree and not having the skills on paper to do that, to command that kind of income? Right. So I started freelance writing on a site called Upwork. And I just sort of stumbled into a client who was on an upward trajectory running their own agency. And they liked my writing. enough that they just they not only kept sending me articles to write, they also made me sort of not necessarily equal to them, but you know, like a step down from them in terms of helping to

manage the agency. And so I had a lot of responsibility, you know, like teams under me writing and you know, me managing their content and managing them. So I was fortunate in that I stumbled into an opportunity where people really like my work ethic, even though I didn't have necessarily the qualifications. But journalism, the fact that I was studying journalism did help because they felt confident, you know, giving me the responsibility to manage content for their agency. And how much were you working, like how many hours were you working to make that $80,000 a year? It was a full-time job. So it was, you know, I would be working through class, but I would of course have to take breaks to do, you know, whatever was needed in class. But I would,

I was working between school and the job, like 12, 13 hour days. Oh, yikes. Okay. Yeah. So $80,000 sounds awesome. But then when you start talking about 10 hours. That's only his job. He's doing that while working college.

That's phenomenal in college. And in college, we have a different capability set. What's the energy level maybe? For sure. I couldn't do that now. And I've only graduated three years ago. But so right now I'm 24, I couldn't do that anymore. Okay, so this is interesting.

You two weeks ago, well, two Fridays ago, we released Tracy's episode where she has a very high salary, but she also has a lot of spending because she's not tracking her spending. And it sounds like you also weren't tracking your spending. And it was just kind of going wherever. And what we said to Tracy and what I'm going to say to you is, in your mind, you're making $80,000 a year. Of course you can afford a thousand dollars on insert item here. Of course you can afford a $100 meal. Of course you can, well yeah, what does Paula Pan say? You can afford anything. You can't afford everything. So what was your turning point? Did you, I mean, I'm assuming

that you had a turning point. You're not just spending all the money that you have. No. So I, it came in two stages. So first I got into investing and I realized the value of money. And so it wasn't so much a conscious effort to, you know, get spending under control as much as it was to transfer the energy I had about spending from buying things to investing in what eventually became the stock market. Initially, it was crypto. but it just became that mindset shift of saying,

okay, I understand how much fun it is to buy things, but now it's even more fun for me to invest. And the second stage came about a year ago, or a little over a year ago in September of 2019, when I took a pay cut because the job I was working, I realized the hours were intense. I wasn't too fond of the people that I was working with anymore. I won't throw them under the bus and say they were terrible,

but it was just not the sort of environment I wanted to be working in anymore. And so I ended up taking a pay cut. I was getting paid in US dollars with the original job. I took a pay cut, started working locally, which even though the nominal salary was the same, I make $50,000 now. At the time I was making like 50, 60, thousand US, which is why it ended up being $80,000 Canadian.

So even though the nominal salary is the same, it's a huge pay cut for me. And so I had to, I could no longer say, okay, I'll spend a bunch of money on my credit card. And I know for a fact that I'll be able to pay it off with the next paycheck because the next paycheck is equivalent to, you know, however many Canadian dollars it ultimately was, depending on the transfer. So I had to be, and I still have to be a lot more careful about my money because it ends up being less for me. Can you take additional work on top of that to earn more money, or is your income truly constrained now in a way it was in a few years ago? I can take on a sidework,

but I've used the time that I freed up instead to, like I'm learning software development now because that's an area I want to head into, which would eventually allow me to surpass the income that I was having before. And also, the work I had before was a lot of doing things in bulk, like just kind of running through so many different articles and so many different strategies. And now it's a bit more measured in terms of my pace. So I'm able to focus on doing a really, really good job at what I do now. And that's helped me

We had a meeting at work and my boss is really happy with my progress. He's planning on promoting me and he laid out kind of a roadmap for how the business is going to grow and where he wants me to be as it grows. And that in itself is going to help me surpass the income I had before.

So it was a measured step backwards with the understanding that it will lead to me making more money in a more sustainable way later on, which was the goal. So how do you wrap your mind around losing so much income? I know there's a lot of people who are listening who are like, wow, I hate my job. I want to leave, but I'm, what is the term, Scott, golden handcuffs?

That's right, yeah. Yeah, I make so much money here that I couldn't possibly leave. And I have had that toxic job. I have had the, I hate going to work every single day. And now I have the, I love my job. I can't wait to get to work job. And I didn't have the pay cut involved. I was making nothing at my toxic job, which makes it really, really easy to leave something

that isn't paying so well. But you took a significant step back. So how do you wrap your mind around that? And I do want to address that you said you live with your parents. And so there isn't the housing costs. There are some easy wins, but it's still a huge mental. shift to leave your $80,000 a year job for a $50,000 a job. And that's $80,000 Canadian versus $50,000 Canadian.

Right, correct. Okay. Yeah. So it was tough because I also, at the original job, I had the luxury of working from home. I was also able to travel a couple of times a year to the U.S. for conferences, which was fun. And then I went to making $50,000, taking the subway, which I hadn't taken the subway. in like two years at least. And so it was a step down. It was humbling, though. It was good because, you know,

I appreciated the understanding that I had gotten a little cocky in terms of how much money I was making. And so the step down and the fact that I was, you know, taking the subway waking up at 6 o'clock in the morning to do that, that all sort of humbled me and reminded me, okay, like, you know, you were making really good money, but you still need to be responsible. You still need to plan for the future. And, you know, nothing is necessarily going to be that easy all the time. So it forced me to sort of reevaluate my approach to not just money, but life in general.

Did you accumulate debt in this process? Or was it kind of just, you didn't accumulate as much as you would have, you would have think you were capable of? No debt. Just not accumulating as much as I was capable of. Like, you know, I was making $80,000. year for about three years. And at the end of it, you know, I had, you know, as of September 2019, I had about $70,000 invested. So, you know, you think about the money I was making and the fact that I had a lack of housing expenses or schooling debt or anything, you know, that should have been a lot more. It shouldn't have been just $70,000. Well, but there's a lot of people who are making a lot of money that should have a lot more and they don't. What are you doing now, now that you know that you should have had a lot more money and you don't. What are you doing now to

to rectify that? Because you are on the path to financial independence, but you're not on the path to retire early. Right. Exactly. So right now, investing is a priority for me. Like, when I think about how I'm going to spend my money, it's the first question is how much do I want to invest? And then everything else sort of falls in line after that. And I'm also, being more pointed about using the fact that I have no housing expense. Well, you know, I pay a modest amount of rent. It would be equivalent to like renting a room and a house that's not as nice as the one I live in. So there's an expense, but it's negligible, relatively speaking,

in terms of what a lot of people pay for rent in Toronto. So I'm, but I'm using the opportunity that I have, having reduced housing costs to get as far ahead as possible, because I know at some point I will have housing expenses, I'll probably buy a house or be renting a property. And so I want to put myself in a position where I've saved and invested so much while I was living at home that even if I have to scale back when I move out, it's not going to be a problem in terms of reaching my goals.

And what are you investing in right now? So right now I actually use a robo advisor. It's called Wealth Simple. there in Canada. I used to manage my own index fund and ETF portfolio, but I just found it was, I was overthinking things. Like I was constantly saying, okay, this has drifted to a larger portion of my portfolio. Like, what's, how do I handle this? You know, is this even the right index fund or ETF for me? So I ended up switching to a robo advisor. And what's a robo advisor? So it, basically I deposit money and it splits it up into a portfolio of ETS based on whatever information I gave it about my goals and my risk tolerance.

So it handles purchasing the assets. Then it also rebalances automatically for me. And it's all like a computer doing this stuff. It's not an actively managed or human managed fund, I should say. Okay. So I think you're doing it right with the index fund. I'm wondering if you're looking at it too frequently for your own mental well-being. Scott, how frequently do you look at your stock investments?

Every couple of weeks, maybe if I remember. And Brandon, how often are you looking at yours? Basically every day. But it's different. How long you've been investing? So I started, I want to say, like seriously investing in 2017, so about three years per going on four years. Yeah, I mean, I just think like when I first started investing, you check it all the time

because even though you know you're not supposed to, you know, investing for the long term, you just check it all the time. Now it's been, you know, nearly a decade and I'm starting to ease off of, I am now like able to, you know, the four levels of competence, you've got unconscious, incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, and then unconscious competence. You ever hear of this? No. It's like you don't know.

you don't know, then you know what you don't know. Anyways, I just get you to this point where I'm like, okay, I'm now believing and buying into and actually practicing this long-term investing horizon, actually not caring if the market goes down that day rather than knowing that I shouldn't care, but still kind of caring, if that makes any sense. And that's kind of the way I feel about my investments. So it's hard to tell somebody not to check their investments every day. I got no, no issue with it. My husband has been investing. He's in his late 40s.

He's been investing for 20 years and he checks it every single day. And then talks about it to me every single day. Let me tell you about this. You guys keep talking about how you shouldn't pick stocks and invested index funds and then you keep making bagillions in Tesla and Amazon. Yes. But the amount invested, the initial amount invested in Tesla in 2012 is very nominal. Yeah, not nominal anymore.

No, it's not nominal. anymore, but that's, you know, that's like ridiculous Elon Musk growth. I don't know. I don't tell him, but I stop listening when he talks about Tesla. Yeah, I look because it's sort of entertaining to me. Like it, seeing the movements, like, for example, in March of 2020, I was losing like thousands of, losing quote unquote, because, you know, you don't lose until you actually sell, but I was losing like thousands of dollars a day. And it wasn't, it was never a question of, okay, should I sell? It was always just, wow, the world's burning.

And I'm like the, my stock market portfolio was sort of the least of my concerns at that point, given everything that was going on. So it was like almost a source of catharticism to watch the money sort of, you know, the value dropped so much because everything else that was going on in terms of the health risks seemed so much more concerning to me. And that was going to be my next question, with you watching it all the time and being a relatively new investor, did it freak you out? When that started, we had an episode where we interviewed five early retirees and Brandon the

mad scientist was one of them. And he is so stoic in real life. But he came on the episode and said, I thought that I'd be cool with a big drop. But when that big drop happened, it turns out I'm not so cool with it. So I'm writing down my feelings now. I'm not taking any immediate action, but I'm writing down my feelings now. And when the market recovers or in a few months, I will revisit how I felt and rebalance my portfolio

stocks versus bonds based on that from a position of clearheadedness. And I was like, that's the brandon that I know. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. I had the benefit of coming from investing in cryptocurrency before. So you're used to huge drops for no

reason whatsoever. Yeah, it was, exactly. It was And because in crypto, when something drops, it's like a lot of these projects anyway, they have no real backing or in terms of like, you know, intrinsic value to them. So, you know, when they're dropping, you have absolutely no reason to be confident that they're coming back. And so, you know, when I was watching like VTI drop, it's like, you know, that's the total U.S. stock market. That's dropping. It's not going away. It's not like a cryptocurrency project that's falling apart and it's never going to resurrect again because the whole thing was just based. on nothing anyway. So I had the benefit of that. Tax season is one of the only times all year when

most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop.

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Braden, what are your financial goals? Are you striving for financial independence? So my big goal is to retire by, or have the options to retire by 50. Now I know, like I've had some conversations on Twitter with people who say that's sort of a long time. Like, don't you have any desire to do it sooner? my thing is I at least now I enjoy working and I find fulfillment in you know getting up and doing

something every day so I I don't see myself retiring in the sense of you know quitting my job and you know doing nothing so I just want to have the but I do want to have the options to do that at 50 because I don't want to be behold into something at a point in my life where you know the tide sort of turning like getting jobs is not going to do that. be as easy necessarily as it will be now and for the next few years. And a lot of that comes from observing family members and the situations they found themselves in financially where they didn't really like their jobs. They would have loved to make changes, but they were in their 50s. And it's very difficult to do that. And they have mortgages and things like that where they can't do that. So that's

why I chose 50 as, you know, sort of a target for achieving financial independence. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I hear from a lot of people who are like, oh, I want to quit my job in five years. Why five years? I hate it. Okay. Then maybe start looking for a different job. But you don't join the financial independence, retire early movement because you hate your job. I mean, that's why a lot of people do, but that shouldn't be the driving force behind it. You are pursuing financial independence. And should retire early happen, that's great. But you're not even retiring early.

Like, there's a lot of people we talk to, Scott, in their early 20s, we're like, I got to retire before I'm 30 or, I don't know, life will end or whatever. It doesn't have to be that way. There's a lot that you get from doing a job that, you know, you feel like you're contributing to the world. Punching out cogs in a, you know, stamping out cogs in a piece of metal, may not feel like something that you're contributing to the world and you know you're doing good but having a job where you're actively contributing to the betterment of society makes you feel good and that when you are financially independent you can work wherever you want it shouldn't be about quitting your job as soon as possible and i love that your financial independence goal is 25 years down the road we've talked to a lot of people who've done it in 10 years fairly easily it's not this like mad dashed towards financial independence where you're so frugal, you get no enjoyment out of life,

and you're sucking away every penny you can possibly sock away because you have to get there as soon as possible. And I love the mindset behind it that you're not, you know, I'm going to continue doing the things that I'm supposed to do while also being a member of this group that, you know, is weird, a bunch of frugal weirdos. Yeah, a lot of that perspective, I think, to came from the fact that when I was making, you know, $80,000 and even now, I've always been able to navigate the professional world knowing that, you know, if I lost my job tomorrow, it wouldn't be a catastrophe because I'm fortunate enough to live with my parents. So I've navigated the world in that sense, and I want to maintain that, you know, even,

so that to me is the financial independence I want. Like it's, you know, I want to be able to navigate the professional world, making decisions, taking risks, maybe even taking pay cuts to do work that I feel is more positive and meaningful. Those are the options I want to have. It's not just being on a beach. It's being able to navigate the professional world without the same constraints that someone who is either they keep this job or they can't make a rent or their mortgage, you know, without the constraints that someone like that has. That's my goal in terms of financial independence. On this point, when you stretch yourself and maximize your income potential, and this is how most people, I think, approach their careers at the beginning, especially, as they go for the very highest paying job or the best combination of total compensation that they can get.

And that means that they're at that point maxed out. That is the best income situation that they can develop personally. And then they spend basically all of that money or do not accumulate. Like we've talked to so many people, we've talked to millionaires on this show who, have less than one month in emergency reserve. All of their money is in retirement accounts and their home equity. Save no freedom.

That's the key here is again, there's a spectrum along this journey and what your position allows you to do, what you're living with your parents, but also having maximized the hand you were dealt by playing it so well and attacking it so vigorously in college.

You are not maxed out on your income front. You're able to make a decision that is better for your mental, emotional, physical well-being, and still allows you to build wealth and put yourself in that position. And that gives you freedom, flexibility, options forever. And it's not like going after the biggest paycheck isn't also the best opportunity or the best thing for you in some cases. Some cases it is. But I think that people who do that place themselves at a higher risk of being unhappy with their work or their life on a day-to-day basis because they

have no other option. You know, they spend themselves into chain, their spending change them to that job, regardless of whether they ultimately like it or not, and it becomes a stressful or whatever. And that's when people want to quit their job is because regardless of their income that they get, a middle class America, average Joe, always tends to end up spending just the amount that he earns on an after-tax cash basis. Whatever hits the bank account goes out. And that is the freedom-constricting thing that I think you're setting yourself up wisely to avoid for life the way you're handling things. It doesn't mean you won't ever have a stressful job, but you'll never be chained to a stressful job. I like what you said there. Yeah, that's good. It's not necessarily avoiding stressful job.

It's stressful jobs. It's just weathering that stress, knowing that if it falls apart, it's not the end of the world. Yeah. I'll tell you, it's stressful being CEO sometimes. You know, they've got to make decisions that impact people's lives and there's a lot of scale with this. It is stressful, but I'm not dependent again on the income from the job to sustain my lifestyle in general, which allows me to say, you know, as bad as some days get the good and the overwhelming awesomeness of this job, make me want to do it intrinsically for the value of it in and of itself. And that's the position that I think it's worth fighting for and defending for a lifetime and sacrificing and grinding out to get there. Okay, I am listening to people listening to this episode right now saying,

but he lives with his parents. He lives with his parents. He doesn't even have any bills. Okay, so he's made a smart choice. You could absolutely have gone out. Sophomore year in college, pulled a Mindy and been like, I'm out. I'm going to go make $80,000 a year. And go get your own apartment and spend all your money and be in a far worse financial position. So first of all, let's address the fact that you do, in fact, live with your parents. Do you have a timeline for moving out into your own apartment? You said you lived in Toronto, aren't like shacks a million dollars? It's a really expensive real estate market.

I mean, you could drive over the border and go live in Detroit, which is slightly less expensive. So what are your housing plans in the future and how are you making financial decisions now to help mitigate those in the future? So I would like to move out by 30, which is another six years. and the reason I have a longer timeline. So it's twofold. Number one, you know, living in Canada, if you want jobs, especially in the media industry,

which is where I work, like Toronto is where you live. It's so, it would be like moving out of my parents' house in Toronto to buy another place in Toronto just for the sake of it, as opposed to having the option of like moving to a different city, which of course the option is there,

but it's, you know, the job. opportunities are not going to be the same and say, you know, Vancouver or Ottawa or somewhere else. So it just doesn't really make practical sense to rush into it, in my opinion, anyways. I'm also conscious of the fact that, you know, money I'm able to save and invest now is going to be worth a lot more, you know, 20, 25 years from now. And so I'm trying to get as much saved and invested as possible. And so that, you know, when I do put however much down payment on a house, it's not.

not going to be, you know, like a huge tradeoff between investing and, you know, and losing out on all that, that money. So one mistake I have made was, you know, I would put all of my money in my retirement account and also my tax-free savings account, which is, I believe, the equivalent of an IRA in the U.S. And so, you know, I was sort of earmarking all that money for retirement savings. And so things like buying a car, which I did for the first time in September 2020, and then also a house down payment, even though the money for both of those things is there, it was just never really allocated in my mind as that may potentially be for housing.

So what I've done now is I've actually set up separate investment accounts and savings accounts for a housing down payment so that I won't have to pull money. out of retirement, which is, you know, there are programs that will allow you to do that in a tax favorable way, but I want to avoid that. I want to keep that money for retirement. And so now I'm sort of being more conscious about saving specifically for a house down payment. Okay, so let's look at your plans. You said you want to move out by 30. What if you get married? That is a great question. And, you know, a few people on Twitter that have interacted with have pointed out, you know, things can always change. Even my

my boss mentioned, you know, like, I was outlining my plans and he mentioned there's just one problem. You might get married and have kids. Like this kid derail everything, which that's a very real possibility. It's not something on the radar, but, you know, I would have to adjust my plans for sure. Okay. I can hear people yelling like, oh, well, of course he's going to be able to be retired early when he's living with his parents at least 30. Brandon is making a conscious decision to reduce his housing costs. Hey, does anybody else recommend reducing your housing costs? Like house hacking, Scott, what is your three tenants of your set for life book, reduce your housing costs? So Brandon's making a conscious decision. Is it what everybody wants to do? No, but Brandon is choosing this.

So good for you for choosing. And just because you want to move out, you know, oh, I think I'll move out when I'm 30. It doesn't mean you're not going to do it when you're 27 or 25 even. But having these plans thinking long term, I think is really important. And I think a lot of of people are like, oh, I can't wait to get out. And I wonder if it's a difference. Like, Canada and America are kind of the same, but also way different. And I wonder, like, do more people in Canada live with their parents? Or is this just a conscious decision you've made that's different? Because in America, as soon as you hit 18, you're like, I got to get out. I would just disagree. And I say, I think a lot of people live with their parents in America

with that. So I don't know if there's a difference. But yeah. I mean, I was living with my parents so I was 26. I was not saving lots of money. And I sure wasn't making $80,000. there's a year doing it. But if I was, I think I would have moved out. I don't think there's a huge difference in terms of Canada in the United States. But culturally, so my parents are from Guyana. And so culturally, it's very normal to live with your parents until you're married. It's just kind of expected, you know, unless you're moving countries for jobs or something like that.

So culturally, it's just sort of a given that that's what you do. And the other thing, it's, I think about how. wealthy people approach money in terms of keeping it in the family and helping the entire family unit progress. And to me, I have this sort of camaraderie with my parents in terms of, you know, I know where we started, which was renting, you know, not the best apartment in the world. And to see them move up to owning their own property. So now I have a sort of, I feel responsibility to sort of see them to the end of paying off their mortgage and reaching a place for them where they're financially stable.

And so I would rather pay them the small amount of rent and help them with odd things here and there than to give someone else like a landlord that money. It's just to me I want my family to progress. And so that's another big reason why I'm staying at home. Once my parents have their mortgage paid off and they're retired, the incentive in that regard is going to kind of, disappear and it'll be you know okay now I'm I'll feel like I'm sort of encroaching on their freedom and so I'll be more inclined to leave but until then I sort of feel like I want to help also conscious to the

fact that they helped me pay for school even though they didn't have to because I had the money to do that it was just they culturally felt the responsibility to do that for me and so I want to I want to you know not just leave as soon as possible and you know kind of enjoy the benefits of them letting me stay here and paying my tuition without actually giving something back to them. I think culture has a lot to do with, you know, your experiences with money growing up affects your relationship with money for the rest of your life. And culture is not something that you should try to overrun because you're never going to.

Right. Exactly. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of folks who live with their parents are not. doing so out of a conscious decision to build wealth intentionally, moving well past what I imagine to be the six-figure mark in terms of personal net worth with no debt and, you know, aggressive accumulation and long-term outlooks there. A lot of people, I think, are doing that out of a state of dependency on their parents, which has not seemed to be the case with you. And I think that it's, it highlights an interesting option available and maybe a cultural stigma,

you know, that needs to be addressed because it's not that bad of it. It's not a bad option. It's a great option and it creates a tremendous amount of freedom down the line. And in your case, I love the perspective that you're actually helping your parents pay off their mortgage is kind of how you're viewing the relationship, not as part of that. And it sounds like that's a really healthy joint view on the matter. Right. Yeah. Because that money would just go to a landlord and, you know, make someone else rich as opposed to helping my own family become rich is the way I look at it. I love it. Should we move on to the famous four, Mindy?

We should. I think this was really fun. This was just yet another money story and a different perspective that we haven't yet shared. And I love sharing every money story, like I said in the beginning. Okay, Brandon, it is time for our famous four questions. These are the same questions we ask of all of our guests. Number one, what is your favorite finance book? So there's a book called I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Rete Sethi.

And that was the book that really sort of brought everything together for me because it showed me that it was possible to have fun while investing and saving money. It also made investing very simple because he was the one that got me into index funds. And so I 100% recommend that book. You know, I've given it to people. I've told people like you must read this book. Like if you want to learn about money but you don't want to learn about how to read stock charts and stuff like that. So that's my favorite. That's my favorite personal finance book.

Yeah. And if you're interested in hearing Rameet come on, we've actually had him on twice now. And we'll look up both those episode numbers here in the show notes. Very cool. Rameet last joined us back on episode 127. And then he also joined us On episode 73. On episode 73.

And he's a delight to talk to. Yeah, his book's fabulous. And because he teaches you, like you said, it doesn't have to be complicated. And I mean, it sure can be. If you want to make money as complicated as possible, buy individual stocks and do the crypto and do the all the everythings. But if you want to make it easy, put it in an index fund.

Vanguard, Total Stock Market. index fund. Fidelity, total stock market index fund. I prefer fidelity over Vanguard, but that's another story. And it blew my mind to hear that, you know, this is like a millionaire author. He's made a bunch of money. And, you know, to read him say that, you know, he just puts his money in index funds and doesn't really pay attention to it, it just blew my mind because my understanding of how rich people handled their money at the time it was completely different. I thought, you know, they're picking individual stocks or they have like money guys that they give their money. hand to do, which I'm sure a lot of them do, but to hear him say that was like, oh, wow,

this is a thing. That's the way to build wealth there. But I also want to caveat that at the end of the day, if you want to, if you want to build that next level of wealth, to get to a millionaire and financial freedom, index funds, saving the basics, you know, these types of things being disciplined. But he has a business. He has books. He has all these other assets and those types of things, which allow for that conservative

approach to have that much more compounding effectiveness as well. So just know that that we don't. that at some point that that accelerative piece comes in with it. But yes, I love that book. I love Rameet. I love debating with Rameet. He came on the show. We did a negotiation about salary on episode 73. It was fun. Nice. He ended up getting a promise. He ended up getting a template where he could earn into a raise from me on the show. All right. What was your biggest money mistake? So I would have to say how I handled cryptocurrency, which I got very greedy. And, you know, I had about, you know, at the end of

2017, I had about $100,000 in crypto in addition to, no, it was, it was sometime in 2018. I had about $100,000 in addition to, you know, substantial amount invested in the stock market. But I was thinking, you know, okay, crypto is going to make me a millionaire. I'm not going to really withdraw that money. I'm going to leave it there. It's going to keep going up forever. and I'm going to become rich, which of course didn't happen. And so that was a big turning point in terms of understanding how to invest more wisely. And so now I became a bit more conservative. Yeah.

So that was probably my biggest mistake in terms of pure dollars, pure dollars lost. We got to get somebody on here to talk about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency generally, Bitcoin specifically around this, because I think it's time the skyrocketing price of it, I think, matters. I will say, I don't think it's a currency. It's a currency. So it's an alternative to the dollar. It's an alternative to things like gold and those types of things. It could, if the dollar inflates, become a currency used by some people or maybe even a lot of people one day, out of the sea of currencies there.

Is it an investment? You know, what I save my money and stockpile it into gold or dollar? in order to retire? I don't know. But I want to have this debate because I think that there's a lot of misinformation and a lot of you're going to see volatility in the crypto markets over the next couple of years. And it's going to be a wild ride. Who knows where it ends up. But I think that's an interesting discussion. So your biggest mistake is crypto. It sounds like you put a lot of money in and sold at the bottom is what I'm about going to gather. Well, no, he said he had $100,000. How much did you put in? So I put in 20.

Okay. Yeah, so I made good money. And so I wrote it all the way up to the point where the portfolio was about $100,000. And then I wrote it all the way back down. Well, you know, I did cash out some. So it would have been a bit more than $100,000. So I took out some and I was left with $100,000. And I wrote it all the way back down to like $30,000.

So. It's a wild ride. Yeah. So it's an opportunity cost of not. selling high. Exactly. Yeah. And just, you know, the amount of energy and time I spent thinking I'm going to become a millionaire from this and, you know, which probably fueled other bad financial decisions, which weren't major, but just, you know, an overall lack of care because I thought I was going to be a millionaire. And so that was an overall mistake, I think.

Well, I still think you'll be a millionaire. Yeah, I agree. I think you'll definitely be a millionaire. I think your fundamental mistake is not that specifically, but the lack of an investment philosophy generally that you could adhere to over the long run through ups and downs, regardless of whether that includes crypto or not. I think that it was kind of like, oh, it's really high and now it's really low, you know, whatever. And I don't think it doesn't speak to me that there was a 30 year or 50 year outlook on the planning around the money management in this case. Is that right? Right. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it was just sort of going along with what I thought was going to make me rich and very short order.

Okay, what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? The best piece of advice would be don't try to outsmart the market. You know, I know a lot of people, they look at market or like, you know, market movements in hindsight, like with Tesla right now, for example, they'll look and say, oh, if I bought here, I would have, you know, made $100,000. And it's very easy to look at charts, you know, just the way charts are. You can look at them and think that way, but it just doesn't work. like that. You know, you need to, I would say, be more practical in terms of, and recognize that

hindsight is 2020. That's my big advice to anyone getting started. Yeah, I'm sorry, I keep shabbing in on this. But like, I feel, I feel this, like when I started investing, I tried to time the market and beat the market and pick these other, those little stocks and figure out the way the value lies. And the temptation is irresistible. It's just, it is for, especially for someone who's just getting started with your first $10,000, $50,000, where that seems like, oh, I could just multiply this by tenfold and I'm done. And so the thing is, index fund investing, we know, is mathematically a superior alternative for most. But if you can't resist a better middle ground than attempting to do something like timing the market or beating the market or crypto trading is likely

going to be approached by a guy named Peter Lynch, who wrote one up on Wall. street, which allows you to begin doing something closer to what Indy's husband does in selecting stocks that you think are likely to increase in value over the long run. The reason for that is that it's still, you're probably not going to beat the market, but at least you're going to be closer on average to that index fund performance with an approach like that than you will by attempting to do this trading mechanism stuff that you're doing with crypto. So I just think it's phenomenal advice and would just say there is a middle ground if you feel like it's too boring and you'd be too antsy if you don't get some chance to at least attempt to flex your mental muscles

and invest in something. I have to read that book because I haven't paid too much attention to the no ground. I just sort of went all the way to the other side and said indexes are the only thing you need to think about. So I have to pay some attention to that. Yeah, I drop almost all my money into index funds at this point. So just say, but I think that the one up on Wall Street or or that approach of thinking about a couple of stocks to invest in long term for value. If you can't resist, is maybe a middle ground for some. Well, and let me give you a glimpse into Carl's Day. He wakes up and he reads 57 business journals all about tech.

He's not reading about the automotive industry except Tesla because it's sort of tech related and he's obsessed. But he's not reading about the automotive industry. He's not meeting about the boating industry. He's not reading about pork bellies and all this stuff doesn't matter to him. He only reads tech, but he reads everything about tech. And he didn't start today. He started 20 years ago. And he's been reading about, oh, Apple has this new thing coming out where you can listen to music

portably in a different way. That's kind of cool. Wait, they're making a phone. Why would a computer company make a phone? That's so stupid. Oh, and then you read more about it. And it's all these little bits of information that pile up. So if you want to invest in a sector or a couple of sectors, know what it is.

Do a lot of research, do a lot of reading. And so I said I'd give you a little glimpse of his day. He wakes up. He reads 57 different articles. And then he goes on to the bigger internet and reads like the more mainstream news articles about those same things. And he listens to podcasts. He listens to the Tesla podcast.

He listens to the Motley Fool podcast. He listens to all these different viewpoints, and he's constantly educating himself. So it sounds like he's done really, really well with Tesla. But he bought it eight years ago, almost nine years ago, when it was nothing. When it was just this random little company, I don't even know what their stock price was, a dollar. He didn't invest. And that's another thing. He didn't put the whole farm on this one stock.

He's like, hi, I wonder what's going to happen with this? I'll try it out. And, you know, Facebook came out and he's, oh, I'll try that out because everybody I know is on Facebook. There are things you can think of that can help inform your decision, but you don't just jump on a hot stock tip. That's right. And I don't do that, by the way, with my investing.

What I do all day, every day, is think about bigger pockets. I think about bigger pockets. How do we grow bigger pockets? How do we get the right people in bigger pockets? How do we come up with an extra pocket? strategy to or the next money show or the next, uh, the next podcast. Like, I'm just always thinking about that stuff. And so most of my energy and attention goes into that. And it just know yourself. Like if you're going to, if you're going to go into stocks, be like Carl or if you're

going to approach it to something, something different, like, you know, approach it like Mindy or I where we pour ourselves into the, the investments or businesses or agent work or whatever it is that that is the wealth, but the true lever of wealth. Yeah, there's no one right approach, but there's a whole lot of wrong approaches. So make intelligent choices, not just hot stock tips. Okay, Scott, ask about the joke. All right. What's your favorite joke to tell at parties? This is a tough one for me. I knew it was going to be tough. I'm like a situationally funny guy. I don't have like a particular, a particular go-to joke. It's like if something funny happens, I'll be able to make the whole room laugh by my like snarky comment about it.

I'm not sure if that's a good answer. I've got one today if you don't have any. Yeah, by all means. So when I was doing some work on some electrical work at my house the other week, this last week, and my wife was shocked to find out that I am not a very good electrician. All right. Where can people find out more about you, Brandon? I was like, wait.

Got's an electrical work? I have a better, more in line. with the show joke. Oh, come on. I like that one. With our Canadian guest, what has antlers and sucks blood? A mosquito. Nice.

Canadian approved. She's a whole herd of moose jokes. Oh, God. Okay, now we'll do the last one. Brandon, where can people find out more about you? So I'm on Twitter at Rinkidoo Finance and also Rinkie Doo. finance.com. I am going to say, thanks so much for getting that song stuck in my head, because I haven't

heard that song since I was babysitting in high school, and it used to stick in my head all the time when I was babysitting him, and now it's going right back again. I can't remember a lot of things, but I can remember some horrible kids song from the late 90s, early 80s. Oh my God, I'm so old. Okay. Brayden, thank you so much for your time today. This was a lot of fun, and we will talk to you soon.

Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast. Scott, that was Brandon from Rinky Do Finance. What did you think of the show? I thought it was great. I thought that he had a unique perspective on finance. Sometimes we hear stories about like the guy, you know, like Tony Gated, right, who lost 400, you know, went from 400 pounds to 215,000 in credit card debt to half a million dollars in net worth with a real struggle that went that went through an inflection point and having to deal with all these challenges and you have this Hercules and story. Guess what? not all of us start at that point and have that hero's journey with some of those things. And Brandon is, I think, an example of what is, I think, is very normal and going on here, but not discussed a lot in our society.

And guess what? Like, he has a great money story. He's making conscious decisions. He's a hustler. He's maximizing the hand that he's been dealt. And he's maximizing his opportunity and freedom and life downstream, but making a conscious decision to live with his parents. I think we should normalize that discussion and say this is a tool or a process that's open to a lot of people that I think is a very valuable and positive way to build wealth and something to be admired.

Absolutely. I think it's great that he's living with his parents. I mean, Toronto real estate is horribly expensive. I mean, I'm not kidding. You could maybe get a shack for a million dollars, but you're also competing with a lot of other people for the privilege of buying an uninhabitable dump for a million. whole dollars. That's a lot of money in my opinion. Tony Gaden, excellent story. What? The unenhabitable dump in Toronto for a million dollars. You're going to get us in trouble. Well, okay. Yes, please send all the pictures

of your amazing property that you were able to buy in the last four months in Toronto to Scott at BiggerPockets.com. All right, fair enough. I'm only going to give us Scott's email from now on. The episode that you referenced, Tony Gaden is episode 21. It's a great episode if you haven't listened to it. You should go back and listen to it.

We should get out of here, Scott. Let's do it. From episode 171 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, he is Scott Trench. I am Indy Jensen giving one last shout before we're out.