BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 23: A Mini-Retirement Road Trip in Your 20s with Becky & Noah

Episode Date: June 4, 2018

Becky and Noah are in the first half of their gap gear, a pre-FI road trip around America. They didn’t grow up rich, but they carefully planned out their life to avoid student debt. Both earned the same Chick Evans Caddie Scholarship to Purdue... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast show number 23. Yeah, like one of the ways I like to describe it is that there's a bunch of banks out there offering this bet that you can take. They're going to bet you two free flights that you can't handle credit responsibly. And if you win the bet, then you get the flights or the hotels or whatever else. And I mean, there are a dozen different banks offering this in a dozen different ways. And if you can handle credit, if you can be responsible with it, then there's a lot of money. and travel opportunities to be had.

It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more.

This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I am doing fabulously, the sun is shining, the birds are chirping, and for the next five minutes or so, it's not going to rain. So life is pretty good over here.

How about you? I am doing great. I'm excited for today's episode. We have a great young couple, and yeah, you want to tell us a little bit about them? Yeah. So on today's episode, we have an example of a young couple who have just kind of made smart decisions, their whole life with an eye towards the future and what the future could hold. Becky and Noah shared their journey to financial independence. They chose employable college degrees, financing college through full-right scholarships.

They earned high salaries and maximized their savings rate. Pretty much everything you are supposed to do with FI, they did. And now they are 27 years old. They are three months into a gap year after quitting their jobs to travel around the country and just kind of enjoy themselves and see what it's like to be 27 with no cares in the world. And I just, I really enjoy talking to them. they are way farther ahead on their journey than I ever was at age 27. And it's nice to see people who are thinking ahead.

Yeah. What I think is what I think the power of this episode is, this is the why. This is why you just make basic, solid, correct choices throughout your life, you know, over the course of a decade or so and set yourself up for a lifestyle that is really unmatchable. These guys are living the dream. They're doing exactly what they want, when they want, where they want. all over the country, visiting friends and family, cool places, having fun, relaxing when they want to.

And that's why you do it. You set yourself for five so you can have that option, right? And they're hardworking folks. And I bet you they're going to go right back within a year or two and begin changing the world in a way that is unique to them and within their kind of constraints and abilities. And they're going to go after it and they have the complete freedom to do so on their terms when they're ready. This is why. This is why you do it. Yes, that is a, that's a, really good description of the show. Before we get into the show, before we bring Becky and Noah in, let's make a request for people to send in guest suggestions. We did this a couple of weeks ago, and we asked for families on their path to FI. I have received a lot of people responding and

emailing me their story, and it's going to be so awesome. We've got a few family episodes coming up in the next couple of weeks, and now we're looking for single parents or divorced parents to share their journey to financial independence too. It's not just for families. It's not just for single people. It is, or well, I guess single, no kids. What would you call yourself, Scott? Well, I'm a single guy with no kids.

You're a sink, a sink. And then there's a double income no kids, right? Dink. That's Becky and Noah. Becky and Noah. And then we're going to start interviewing a couple of families who have, I don't know what the term is for them. Yeah, I was trying to think, what is it?

Dual income with kids. Yes. Duke? I don't know. There's a single family with kids, right? And then there's single income, no, spouse, you know, divorcee or a widow or a single parent. What is that? Sins? Yeah. Maybe we should say something. We should say something different. But these are the, yeah, these are the, you know, we're working kind of like from easiest to hardest here, you know. And I think that that's, it'll be very interesting if you know anybody that's working towards financial independence. with some constraints that are beyond that kind of the normal outside the normal,

like not a single guy like me, not a married couple like Becky and Noah, not even a married couple like Mindy and Carl. But what are some disadvantages that go beyond that with single parent or divorcee or whatever that really kind of put constraints on moving towards fire? And how can we hear stories about how people are overcoming those challenges? So if you know anybody like that, we'd love to hear it. And please send them along to Scott at BiggerPockets.com or Mindy at BiggerPockets.com. Yeah, that will make a really great episode too. And I am sure that I am going to get a lot more fantastic

responses because I have, I probably have 40 people that have sent me their story and it's fantastic. So the response has been amazing. I'm very excited to get those shows on the air in the next couple of weeks. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one

personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at

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and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Becky and Noah, welcome to The Bigger Pockets Money Show. How's it going?

Good. Thank you for having us. Great. Same. Well, let's go ahead and start right from the beginning of your journey. How did you guys meet? And then how did you get to the... started on your kind of journey to financial independence? So it all kind of ties in together. So we met in college. And the reason we met is that we both got the same full ride scholarship to college. So that was at Purdue University. And the full ride is called the Chick Evans Scholarship that we got for being golf caddies. So we both caddied at our respective country clubs, me from Indiana and her from

Illinois. And caddied for at least six plus years. And then had good, grades in high school had some financial need for our families and we're able to get full tuition and housing scholarships to college, which is where we met. So it's very, very magical in that way. So you're basically saying that this golf caddy scholarship allowed you to kind of graduate from a really prestigious university, both of you, without any debt. Is that more or less the story there? No, that's correct. Yeah. That is awesome. And what was your work? when you graduated? So I have a nursing degree. So I worked in labor and delivery for the past five years. And then, yeah, so I graduated with a degree in computer engineering, which is about half half computer hardware, half computer software. I really love the software side a lot more. So I ended up getting a job in Seattle working at Amazon. So complete computer science job. But that was

amazing. And that's the reason we moved across the country from Purdue. So we're both from Midwest, produce in the Midwest, and then we both moved all the way across the country to Seattle, one for the great job opportunity, and that allowed us to earn and save a ton of money, which set us pretty aggressively forward on the path to financial independence. So how much were you guys earning and save it out of college and how much were able to accumulate over the last couple of years? What were, I guess, how are you able to live cheaply in Seattle as well? That's a pretty expensive place. I think that we both grew up pretty frugally. Like we just have never like naturally wanted to spend money.

So that was just a big bonus for us. Like out of college, I got the big tech job. Becky was able to find a nursing job in Seattle not long after we moved there. And combined, we were making about $150,000, like out of college, which is amazing. Like we're very fortunate for that to be possible. But yeah, as Becky said, we were fairly naturally frugal. I mean, we just kind of kept the college lifestyle going after we moved to Seattle. And at first, because we didn't know about FI at the time, we didn't really have a purpose for what we were saving money for, but we were saving money already.

So that put us way ahead. So when did you kind of discover the concept of FI? Like when did that? And was there a change that you made maybe when you discovered that? So when we first discovered FI was about a year after we moved to Seattle. I actually found the financial independence subreddit on Reddit. I believe they made the personal finance a default sometime in 2015. 14. And then whenever people talked about retirement or early retirement, people linked them over to

financial independence. And then that kind of, they had an amazing FAQ, which is like the basics of the five world, like what you need to think about, what people are talking about, what people recommend. And that, of course, led to places like Mr. Money Mustache and early retirement extreme and a dozen of other blogs and just an endless stream of information available to consume. And I just ate it up as fast as I could. Did you share that with Becky? And she was on. on board right away or did it take some convincing? Becky's shaking your head. No, yeah.

He, I mean, he kind of delved into it pretty intensely and started kind of explaining it to me a little bit. And I just, it didn't make sense to me at all. And I actually really enjoyed my job at that time. So I wasn't like, the idea of quitting just sounded really, really strange to me. And especially like early. I was like, oh, I'm going to be a nurse forever. and this was going to be my life.

So it took, I don't know, it took about a good year, I think, for you to kind of explain it to me. And it was more just him, what am I trying to say? Like living the lifestyle you wanted to live and me just kind of looking at that and realizing, oh, this is actually kind of cool. And I started kind of increasing my career a little bit and I became a charge nurse and I just increasing my responsibility at work and I became really stressed. out and really burnt out and realized I don't think I want to do this forever. So that's when I'm like, I like this idea of walking away a little bit earlier.

So let's, what, what time frame, sorry, Scott, what timeline are we looking at here? Because you guys aren't 50 years old. You have graduated rather recently. When did you graduate from college? I'm sorry. I graduated in 2012. Okay. And I was one year behind.

So we're both 27 right now. Yeah. Okay. So you haven't been working for a long time. I can hear people listening saying, you're not old enough to be burned out yet. But, you know, being a nurse is really stressful. Let me tell you how stressful it is, Becky. But, you know, you're in charge of a lot of things.

And that's, I can totally see getting burned out. I've been burned out of jobs really quickly after starting. So, yeah, I guess being able to see how much fun it is to not do this. And, oh, look, it's stress-free lifestyle. That could be a big. Turnaround point. So how long did you work? Five years? Six years? Yeah. So we got to Seattle. We lived there for about a year and just as we mentioned, we kind of naturally saved money. And then at the beginning of 2014, we actually bought a townhouse in Seattle because we thought we

spent a while there. And at least at the time, the mortgage payment for the equivalent rental was cheaper. So that was the only really math we did. And like, oh, that makes sense. We should get a house. And fortunately, it was like one of the best accidental investments we ever made just because you could have bought anything in Seattle a few years ago and done very well. So we had our money saved for that. We bought the house. And then we discovered five soon after that. And then we started setting up our finances like more efficiently to be like, oh, maybe we should be maxing out our 401Ks. Maybe we should pay more attention to IRAs. Like maybe we should, or I guess, give our savings a purpose. So we cut back a little bit on excessive things, just like buying new furniture all the

time and stuff like that, like stuff we didn't really need to be spending money on. And You asked like we have like multiple series of furnitures. Well, we bought a house and then we filled it up pretty quickly. But yeah, so we were naturally frugal. And then after discovering FI, after buying this house, like we actually had a purpose for our savings. And we just started making our whole financial world a lot more efficient and optimized for being able to retire early if we choose to. Well, so let's get into that. What specifically was the, what specific efficiencies did you realize?

You mentioned the 401k, but what, can you give this kind of maybe a rundown of what you were doing previously and what the change was once you began giving that purpose? Did your savings rate increase? Were you tracking it more? I don't know. Yeah, the biggest thing is we just started writing down everything that we were spending. You know, we, I mean, we both had a mint account. I wasn't really super, you know, religious about it, but he was. And every month, he would go through both of our expenses and kind of see where we were at and figure out exactly where all of our money was going. And we're like, oh, we spent a lot of money on this this month. Maybe we should do that next month. Or we were just more conscious of it.

And being naturally frugal, it helped. And yes, we were able to, like, move money around and put money into specific things. And he did a lot of research on investing. And, yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah. So, I mean, like, once we started putting money away, so when we first got to Seattle in 2013, we weren't tracking our expenses very much. It was just kind of making sure we were cash flowing every month.

We weren't spending more than we were making. we knew at least that much. And then at the time, we were putting in the minimum we could in our 401k to still get the match. So that was like the standard advice we'd heard from people, like, at least get the match because, like, it's free money. So we were doing that already. And then as soon as we discovered FI, we immediately bumped it up to the actual max, which is, what, 18, 18, 5, or it was 18 a couple of years ago. So we were both doing that. And then we were both maxing out IRAs.

And we both, or at least I had access to an HSA when we discovered FI. So I started maxing that out because it's the ultimate retirement account, as you may have read online. And yeah, and then beyond that, it was just in putting money in a brokerage account and then just straight index funds all the way. So very standard FI, everything is in either total U.S. market or total international market. So just all index funds as tax efficiently as we can do it. Wow. Have we heard from anybody recently about index funds, Scott? Yeah.

No, yes. What was the show number? we just had Jim Collins on the show and all the great things behind index funds. The grandfather of index funds. The grandfather of index funds. That was show number 20. So biggerpockets.com slash money show 20.

You can hear Jim's take on this. But yeah, it sounds like index funds were a good choice for you too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a simplicity of it. I mean, there may be much like better ways to invest or even like, okay, so it's not guaranteed ways to get more. are ways to get more, that you can put more time in. But just index funds, it's just so simple.

Like, we don't have to think about it. We just throw all our money in there and we're done. And we'll take the average. The average has done very well over the last 50 plus years and we'll take it going forward. So that's all we need. All right. So one thing I can hear, you know, well, this, what's so great about your story is you just didn't make any mistakes. You got a full ride to college by playing your cards correctly in high school. You graduated debt-free. you got solid jobs, not crazy income. You know, the two full-time college graduates getting a job at an average of 75K is not extraordinary income right out of, right out of school.

And then you just saved and spent reasonably. Sounds like you bought a reasonable house and didn't, your max not your 401k and you're putting all this stuff together. How much were you able to accumulate as a result of this over the, you know, over the period that you worked out of college? So at the moment we are not revealing our network. like that's not public information. But I will say that, so you know how much income we're making out of college.

And at that point, we're maybe saving 25 to 30%. And then over the next several years, we're able to ramp that up to like about 75%. So a very high percentage of our salaries. We're going into index funds every year. Wow, 75%. Yeah. I like that. Sorry, Scott.

No, no. That's awesome. What I want to know is, do you have any peers that get, graduated around the same time and got similar levels of income and were not able to produce this result. What did they do differently from you that maybe didn't allow them to get to get to where you are financially? I would say like our closest friend that also went to Purdue and also graduated and moved out to Seattle also got a similar tech job and is on a similar path to us. I don't know if we have any close friends who graduated and moved across the country or even just

found lucrative opportunities elsewhere. And I'm actually, I mean, I guess the honest answer is I don't know what most of my friend's financial picture is. Like, it's not something that comes up in normal conversation. So I don't know if they're saving or they're in crazy amounts of debt or what. But let's rephrase this then. Why are you guys so well off and so able to stockpile net worth and rapidly move toward and rapidly move towards financial independence?

But most people that graduate with these types of degrees and have similarly paying jobs are not. What's the difference do you think? You just describe something that's not hard. Yeah. I think it's just when people live a college lifestyle and they finally get that first paycheck and I'm like, oh my God, I can live and I have money and they want to spend it. And I think that's just and it's the American dream, right, to grow up with the white picket fence and the house and the nice car. And that's just what I think the world wants. But I mean, our outlook on it is just different. Yeah, I think Becky hits on the big point. It's just lifestyle inflation.

I think the majority of people that come out, whether they have a low-paying job or a high-paying job or anything in between, they just spend all of it or sometimes even more if they go into debt, if they don't understand the long-term consequences of that. But once we found this path, like, we did get a couple of raises over the last five years when we were working. Like, none of that changed our lifestyle at all. Like, we found a level of living that we were very comfortable with and that we could afford comfortably on our salaries. and we just never inflated it year over year, even if we were making more money. Yeah, that's... Love it. That's fantastic.

And, you know, that's kind of hard to do when you see all of your friends doing the same, you know, doing the opposite of what you're doing. So Scott said a moment ago, it sounds like you didn't make any mistakes. We had a guy on a couple of episodes ago, Tony Gaden on episode 21, where he was describing or he was telling his story. And it was just like, like, obstacle after obstacle after obstacle keeps being thrown in his way. and he's like, get out of here. I'm going to continue on my path and I'm not going to let anything stop me. And, you know, it sounds like you guys really had an eye towards the future even when you were in high school. You've got this scholarship that, like, when did you discover the scholarship? You don't just get good grades and hope for the best, right? Like you had, you'd known about this before. Right. So my brother, my older brother, caddied as well. And we found out about the country club that we caddied at from a mutual family friend. And, um, So that person got us into the club and we started cadding and my brother obviously found out about it before I did.

He's six years older than me. So he got good grades and he also got the scholarship and went to Northwestern in Illinois. And so, you know, that was basically my goal starting as a caddy was to get this scholarship. And, you know, my parents, you know, pushed me and they really wanted me to work and do really well. And so, you know, I definitely thank them for me getting that whole scholarship. And it just, you know, that's how I found out about it. Yeah, I mean, it's a huge shout out to my parents for me, for the just having the whole opportunity to start with because my dad actually worked at the country club where I ended up cadding.

And when I started, I had no concept of like tuition or college or what I wanted to be doing because I started at like 13 years old. But at the time, it was just an amazing job because, I mean, you would get outside. You carry a golf bag for like four or five hours, like walking the whole time. So you're getting a pretty good workout. You're outside. You're in the sun. And then you go home with like 20, 40 bucks of spending money.

Like that's just awesome as a kid. Like, and then it's like luckily I stuck with it. And they pushed me to like actually put the time in and take the steps needed to get the scholarship later on once I realized how important that was. But at the beginning, I'm just happy they set me up with the opportunity. And I mean, I just loved it. Like just being outside, being around golfers, because I golf my golf. myself and just being outside. It was just a great summer job regardless of the scholarship. And then that was an amazing boost at the end. Yeah, same for me.

All right. So let's let's fast forward to the presence. So you guys, you did it right. At every stage, there's no, there's no major, there's no major obstacle. You eliminated every major obstacle to financial success, starting from this position of getting the scholarship. Then you went to college. You got employable degrees. You know, you found good jobs out of there. You behaved reasonably and didn't spend too much out of college. You saved a good chunk of your income. And then you, what are you doing now? Can you tell us about, like, what are you doing right now the last three months that other

people that didn't make the same choices are unable to experience? What a leading question. So as- Like you're looking for a specific answer. Yeah. So as of January this year, we are both unemployed and currently traveling across the country. and what we're calling a gap year or a mini retirement to where, like, we never, we didn't make it full into financial independence in five years, but we were on track to get there in maybe another

five years. So we're maybe about halfway somewhere around there. But we decided to just take this opportunity to where we were both looking to switch careers anyway, to just leave, travel for a while, like use that like amazing financial foundation that we built on the path to five over the last five years and just tap into that a little bit to like just have this amazing life opportunity to travel across the country for an entire year. So that is what we've been doing for the last three months. So where have you gone specifically? So we started in Seattle, obviously. We drove down the coast and we have a dog. So we dropped off our dog with my sister in San Francisco. And she's graciously taking him for the year and loving it. And then we kept going down through California.

we cut over through Arizona, New Mexico, Texas. We had a wedding in Austin, middle of March. So we were there. And then we kind of came back through New Mexico, Arizona, up through Utah. We did all the parks, national parks, state parks. And then now we're in Colorado in Denver at the moment. And it's been a blast. Yeah.

So like we didn't start this trip with any like specific goals. Like we want to see all 50 states. We want to see all national parks. We want to see some crazy checklist to follow. Like we just wanted to be very relaxed. And so what we've been doing is just traveling like on average or not on an average day, but on days that we move from city to city, we'll maybe drive three or four hours to the next town that sounds cool. And we'll check out national parks in the meantime. We'll visit with family and friends like whenever we get the opportunity for in the right part of the country. And it's just been amazing just to see so many parts of the country that we've never seen before.

And yeah, it's just amazing. That's awesome. So what is it like being unemployed after being employed after being. employed for five years and, you know, going to college. And this is something that I think a lot of people struggle with. My husband struggled with this when he quit his job. He's like, oh, you know, he reached, we reached the number well before he quit. And it was, it was difficult for him to quit. And then once he did quit, he's like, oh, my goodness, I should have done that sooner. I'm like, yeah, really? Wow. Amazing that nobody ever told you that. So how is it being unemployed for you?

It was honestly really hard at first. So I actually left my job back in August. And I had just recently gotten a promotion and I was a supervisor of my unit and which was really, really, really, really struggling for me. It was very hard. And I got even more burnt out and more overwhelmed. And so when he finally told me to walk away because it was making my life very hard, it was really easy. after that, I'm like, oh my God, I feel so much better. And the six months leading up to our road trip, I sold all of our stuff. And that was my little mini job, was to get our life ready for this year. And it's been great.

I mean, we wake up when we want to. And we basically can just do whatever we want to do. And I don't know, it's, I don't, I don't hate it. That sounds awful. Becky's situation. Very hard to quit to actually pull the trigger. Yeah. Being in the position she was.

and having so many people rely on her. But amazing once you actually did. Like no regrets of any kind. And then for me, like at least in big tech, like it's rare for people to stick around a company more than a couple years, which is a more modern phenomenon or I don't know what. But at least like between all the big tech companies, like it's, it was very rare for anybody to stick around more than a couple years. And I was there for coming up on five.

So I was kind of due to switch anyway just because usually you make more switching companies than getting promoted within for whatever reason. So I was kind of ready for a transition anyway. And then Becky was burnt out. So I'm like, why don't we just both quit? It'll be fine. We've done most of the things right in our life up to this point. Like we have this opportunity.

Let's take it. Yeah. And it was a lot easier because, I mean, he's really good with the math and the numbers. And he like showed it to me in all of our spreadsheets. And he's like, look at what we have. Look at what we can do. Like, we'll be fine. And so that was, that said, make it a little easier as well.

Yeah. And it doesn't hurt. that we both have very employable jobs at the moment to where we're a very high demand professions. So we don't think we'll have any trouble getting back into the workforce if that's what we decided to do. Yeah. So Scott just said, oh, you guys got employable degrees. That's a really important thing that I'll think a lot of people don't think about. My degree is in fashion design. And that was really not the smartest choice for me, although I did just get a note from somebody who said, oh, my fashion design degree was the best thing I ever did. I'm really glad it worked out for

for her. And, you know, I hope she continues with it and continues to see success. It was a bad choice for me and I didn't see any success with it. And it's not that employable. It's not like I was just at a bad place. It was just not the right thing for me. And, you know, everything happens for a reason. I now have this job, which is amazing and I would never want to quit. But I've been in that position where every day is like, oh, God, I can't believe I have to go to work again. So I hear you. And I didn't, FI wasn't a thing back then because we didn't have the internet then. So I didn't discover this and I just kept plotting along in this horrible job thinking, ugh, only 40 more years. Tax season is one of the only times all year

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At Desjardin, our business is helping yours. We are here to support your business through every. stage of growth. From your first pitch to your first acquisition, whether it's improving cash flow or exploring investment banking solutions. With Desjardin business, it's all under one roof. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk. Business. So what's your favorite thing that you've seen so far? On the road. On the road on your trip. I don't know. So many parks. We've all. Like the Grand Canyon was amazing.

I had never been there. So that was just a huge fun week for us at just all the parks. I don't know. Arches was awesome. Zion. Yeah, I've been to like a dozen national parks at this point. And they're all amazing in their own ways. One of my favorites was definitely the Carlsbad Caverns.

I've never been in a cave anywhere near that size. And like to be in a cave to where like you go into a room and it's like bigger than a football stadium. And there's more rooms off of that like all underground. Like it's just very cool. Yeah, I was there as a kid. I don't remember much about it except. Don't the bats come out at night? We did see some bats, yeah.

Exodus of bats. They swarm out in the morning and swarm back in the afternoon. Or vice versa. I think I have that reversed. Yeah, I think they swarm out at night. There are definitely bats. Right. Yes.

So you guys are going to go, you're basically, okay, so you've built a stockpile. You're taking a gap year. You're going to go right back to work, whenever you feel like it in some point in the next year or so. And then you're going to finish out the journey to financial independence. it's maybe taking more gap years in between, basically at your quote-unquote leisurely pace that you as you wanted over the next couple of years, right? You're just like, oh, yeah, we'll achieve it if we ever want to buckle down and do it. But basically, we're super happy right now.

And we have just a ton of great options. I mean, what a fantastic situation. Let's switch this over to another topic of expertise that you've got, unless you have anything to add in that category and talk about your travel hacking because you guys are big travel hackers, right? Yeah. We just touch on one thing before we move on. Like you said, like it's all very open-ended at this point.

Like because we've built up this amount of money that's invested, like it will compound over time regardless of what we do as long as we're not draining at all. So like we have so much flexibility to where like if we want to go back to our full-time jobs and like grind through five in the next three to five years and just be set for life, like we can totally do that. Or we could work part-time or remote or just any sort of non-traditional, seasonal job or whatever else. Like we could both work part-time, cover.

our expenses and then just let our nest egg grow over the next 10, 20 years and reach financial independence the slow way, or still very fast, I guess, relative to the rest of the world. But, like, yeah, we don't have to really grind it out anymore now that we've set our, set ourselves up on this great foundation. Wow. That's a really amazing quote. I'm going to write that down. I love it.

That doesn't everyone do this? That's fantastic. Okay. Now, let's talk about how you are paying for your travel. You just write checks all the time. We just put it all in credit cards. There you go. That's the best way to do it.

So I actually was told this by a friend once. He said, oh, I just do what I want. I'll put it on the credit card. I'll figure out how to pay for it later. I'm like, oh, that's not me at all. So tell me how you handle this with just putting it on the credit card and you'll figure out how to pay for it later? Yeah, pretty much.

No, so about the same time we discovered financial independence about three, four years ago, we also discovered this idea of travel hacking or churning credit cards, basically signing up for credit cards just to get the sign-up bonus and then moving on to another credit card because there's dozens of credit cards out there to where they will give you a reward of $500 to $1,000 to $1,000 to $1,000, either cash or just in various travel currencies that are cash equivalent in some way for signing up for the credit card and then spending $1,000, $2,000, maybe $3,000 in the first three months of having. it. So it's not like you're giving them $3,000. You're just doing your regular spending, paying it off every month. And then at the end of reaching this spending minimum, you get this huge travel sign-up bonus. So we discovered this, yeah, back in 2014, we signed up for a couple cards because, I mean, when you first hear this, it's like way good to be true or like way too good to be true. Like all of my alarm bells are going off to be like, this can't be right. So, I mean, we just started slow. We got a credit card. We met the sign-up bonus. We got the magical airline miles. We actually booked a flight and then took the flight and then we'd done everything front to back. We earned the miles. We signed it for the credit card, earned the miles, spent the miles, and everything was, everything worked. It just worked. So we decided as soon as we realized it was legit, we just scaled it up rapidly. So in the past three, four years, we've signed up for 70 different credit cards, all with a sign up bonus. And then that is like heavily subsidized

our travel over the past several years, including our honeymoon. And then it's helping us a ton on this trip just paying for hotels because the majority of where we're staying during this road trip adventure is in hotels. And then in between that, we mix in some camping and staying with family and friends. So that's been a huge subsidy to our lodging expenses on this trip. How much is this year going to cost you, do you think? What's your estimate for, like, total expenses? Are you leaving your house vacant? Or did you, do you, so? that or how's that working? So we rented out the townhouse. We got a property manager just because we didn't want to have to deal with it on the road. So he has been great and taking care of it

for us. He found us tenants. And it's been they've been living there for about a month and a half, two months. Something like that. So we're getting some little bit of income. Yeah. So we don't really make much profit of it. But it does cover all of our expenses. And we don't have to worry about it. And as the Seattle market keeps appreciating, so don't jinx that. So we'll just let them pay our mortgage for the next year or so and then figure it out after that. But I mean, we've also been tracking our expenses still on the road so we know how much we've spent. And if we, you know, extrapolate that out over a year, it's going to be under 50 grand, which is way less than what we spent in Seattle. Yeah. So we're currently averaging about

$3,500 per month, give or take. And then like I think this much will actually get less as we kind like find our rhythm and get a little more efficient with things, stay with friends and all that. It looks like it'll cost us somewhere between 35 grand and 45 grand, something like that, which is amazing considering the lowest we ever spent in Seattle was like 65 grand for a year. So like living on the road is actually going to be cheaper than living in one place in Seattle. So that's so far so good. I mean, there's a lot of unknowns with our expenses as we keep going. But we've been on the road for three months.

They have a pretty good feel for it. And yeah, it's right around 40 grand or so is. what we're expecting the total year to costs. That's awesome. I want to touch back on these 70 credit cards that you opened up. That's 70, not 17, not 17, it's 70 credit cards that you've opened up. Between the two of us. Between the two of you. Okay, so 35 and 35. How does that affect your credit score? And do you need your credit score for anything? Since you've already bought a house, you're on this path to FI, you're not really looking to accumulate a lot of things. I'm assuming you don't have a car. loan or you do and you're not looking to get another one. Like, how does that, how does that affect your

credit score? I'm glad you ask because that is the number one question whenever I tell anybody that we sign up for a bunch of credit cards. But amazingly, I mean, the short version is that, no, it doesn't hurt your credit as long as you use the cards responsibly. So, I mean, like having the new or having more accounts is actually better for your credit. So that's a plus. The one thing it does hurt is your average age of accounts as you keep getting more. But I mean, we can just tell you from experience. Like, we started with credit scores in like the low 700s a few years ago when we know our credit score because we got a mortgage at that time. And then over the past four years, it's grown to like the very high 700s, even bumping 800 every once in a while, depending on who you ask. But as long as you're using the cards responsibly, paying them off on time every month, it's really not going to ding your credit at all.

And I can say that a lot of people don't believe that, but at least one anecdote I can provide is that a couple years into doing this. So after we'd both opened at least a dozen cards, probably closer to 20, we actually refinanced our house to both remove PMI and get a lower interest rate. And we had no problem doing that despite having 20 credit cards in the past couple of years, or 20 new accounts in the past couple of years and having a few new accounts in the past, like, month or two before we actually applied for the refinance. And the lender basically just said, why did you sign up for these cards? And we just said we signed up for travel rewards.

And that was the end of it. That was all they asked. So, and yeah, we got refinanced perfectly fine. No issues. We actually opened a HELOC just as kind of a backup, backup emergency fund before we started this trip. And the same thing, like we'd open a dozen or more cards in the last year and still had no problem opening this new line of credit.

What I suspect is happening is when you open a new credit card, it usually is like a one to two or point ding on your overall score. Yes, a very small ding for the hard inquiry. And then as you get all those new payments and the new account, your score goes up over the next three months. Yeah. And because you guys are are young and still working on establishing credit, your age of credit history, your on-time payments, percent of all that stuff is just continue creeping up. And so that is just a completely negligible impacting your credit score. So the trade-off obviously is, yes, there's like a one or a very small one-time impact

when you open up a card. But that can get completely overwhelmed by the, you know, utilization rate of your cards. The number, you know, your on-time payments, all that kind of stuff. And I've, I've been doing this for a little bit. I've seen my credit score continuing to climb even though I'm opening these cards. So yeah, that's a great way to describe it. Yeah, that's a good way to share a little story with everybody who's listening. A few months ago, maybe six months ago, I told Scott about this concept of travel hacking and they recommended that he listened to the Choose FI podcast, episode nine, I believe, is where they spell it all out. They spent a whole episode on this. And Scott said, no, I've got a cashback card that gives me 1%. I'm pretty good.

I'm like, well, okay. I'll just drop it. And then all of a sudden, Scott comes in one day. And he said, I just listened to Choose FI episode number nine. And it was amazing. And oh, my goodness, I have been doing this all wrong. And I can't wait to start this. And I'm sorry, Scott, did you just earn a big travel reward recently? I have the companion pass now and it's great. Very nice. The holy grail. I don't understand the economics behind this because, you know, I can see how like

someone opens the card and they spend too much or they are late on their payments or whatever that, okay, I guess the credit card company can make some money off of it. But I just don't see, like I spent close to like three grand on this credit card, got my, like maybe just a little over three grand, got 60,000 Southwest points, then did the same thing on another card for 50,000 and have 110,000 miles, get the companion pass. That's like what, thousands and thousands of dollars in travel. Oh, absolutely. Cost me $195 in terms of two one-time annual fees, which I probably won't renew. Like how does that, how does that math work economically for the other guy? Right. I thought the exact same thing as you. And when we first started doing this,

I'm like, this is illegal, right? Like, this has got to be, we're doing something wrong. Like, we're going to get arrested. This is crazy. And he's like, no, there are so many people that are not paying off their cards on time. And that's just where the credit card companies are getting their profit from. I mean, there's such a like a minor amount of people doing what we're doing that it doesn't affect. Yeah. Like one of the ways I like to describe it is that there's a bunch of banks out there offering this bet that you can take.

They're going to bet you two free flights that you can't handle credit responsibly. And if you win the bet, then you get the flights or the hotels or whatever else. And I mean, there are a dozen different banks offering this and a dozen different ways. And if you can handle credit, if you can be responsible with it, then there's a lot of money and travel opportunities to be had. Yeah. It's just crazy to me. Yeah, there's a lot of people that can't handle their side of the bet. No, like you, I just didn't believe it at first for a while because it didn't make any, it didn't make like basically, this is not a fundamental.

component of wealth building. This doesn't make any sense. This has got to be like a one-time little trip. I'm not interested. But no, it seems like it's pretty scalable for now, at least. Yeah. So can you give our, let me some of the listeners, some tips on where to start if they're interested in travel rewards? We've already recommended Choose FI episode nine of the podcast, but what are some of your tips? That's a great place to start just for kind of an introduction. My advice is always because, I mean, if this idea is new to you or you haven't tried it, I'm sure you don't believe it's true. Like, why would it be? It doesn't make any sense. But there are a lot of people that have done it.

And all I tell people is just start small. Just find one card with a sign up bonus that you'll be able to use. Sign up for it. Get the bonus. And then either use it or at least understand the process of how to use those points. And then you can decide whether or not it's for you. I mean, it's not for everybody. It does require some organization and staying on top of your cards and being able to cancel them

after a year to avoid annual fees and stuff like that. But yeah, just start small, get one card like any other adult does. Sign up for one credit card with a side. sign of bonus, get the sign of bonus. And then once you understand the process, if you want to scale it up, go for it. Like, there's a lot of room to scale it up. And then if you don't, that's fine. Like, you don't have to. It's not a requirement by any means. But there's a lot of opportunity out there if you, if you're organized and put the time in. Yeah, I want to add to this. Keep track of your dates. Like your one year date, a lot of times if you call up to cancel, the company will waive the

renewal fee if you called up too late. But you really want to try and keep track of the those dates and cancel beforehand. And keeping track of your cards is super important. Noah, you said that. And we actually missed out on one of these huge bonuses because we opened up two cards at the same time. We were in the middle of a home remodel. So getting the spend wasn't difficult. We just didn't keep track of it. And we put too much on one card and not enough on the other. So we got the match on or the bonuses on the one card. But we totally miss out on the bonuses on the other card for like $400 or something. So one thing we do is, is when we only open up one card at a time now.

So we'll open up the card. I'll put that in my wallet. And that is my go-to card for gas and groceries and, you know, kids expenses and anything that I have to charge goes on that one card. And then towards the end of, you know, once I figure out that I've used my spend, then I'll go back to it. Like I have a plain old credit card that I use all the time.

My Costco, Costco Visa or whatever, it has a lot of really great benefits. And one of the things that these these kids, cashback cards don't offer is, or I'm sorry, not cashback cards, the rewards cards. They don't offer the cashback option and the credit card that I use all the time is like 5% off on gas or something and 3% on all your Costco purchases. I can't remember what all the numbers are. Don't take that as gospel. Yeah. So that's a great everyday card. But then when I'm trying to spend $3,000, I've got two kids and a household. Like, that's really easy. Just put it in your wallet and go. So yeah, definitely keep track of your car.

And starting small is a really great, great piece of advice too, because I'm kind of a jump in with both feet kind of girl. So I will, oh, I can sign up for 27 credit cards. Well, I can't spend $27 times $3,000 in three months. I mean, I could, but. Yeah. Do you any tips for people who are, you know, maybe not sure that, like, they know they could pay it off? They just don't have that much to spend. There's a lot of ways to basically manufacture spend.

I mean, if you just Google credit card manufactured spend, you'll get a lot of ideas. Some of them are shadier than others. But one thing that we tell people that's very simple to do and very easy is that if you don't think you'll meet the spend on a card in the three months, just buy a gift card to a place that you go all the time. Grocery store is the most common. Like you can go buy a Kroger gift card or a Walmart gift card or Target gift card. And then you'll basically front load the spend on the credit card, get it done in time.

and then you just use the gift card after that until it's empty. And another thing you can do is prepay your utilities. So, I mean, you're going to keep paying utilities for a long time. So you can just send them a payment for $300. And then that'll just cover your next several months. But it all hits the credit card during that minimum spend period. So those are a couple small tips. Oh, I've never heard of prepaying your utilities.

Oh, that's awesome. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so glad I. Yeah. Yeah. Well, awesome. Do you have anything else to add maybe about your story or about the credit cards before we move on to the famous four? I think that's it.

All right. Awesome. Well, these four questions are the same questions that we ask every guest. There's actually five of them because Scott doesn't know how to count. Actually, I think Josh and Brandon don't know how to count on the original podcast. But these are our famous four questions. And the first one is, what is your favorite? I would say my favorite finance book is your money or your life because it's the one that really just put in perspective that your hours are valuable.

Like the time you have left on this earth or the time you have in general is very valuable. And it's important to look at how much time you're spending earning money versus what you're actually getting with that money. Like how much, how many hours you're putting towards each purchase you make was a very big concept that really stuck with me. So that's definitely, definitely the one I go with. Yeah, that's an awesome book. I earlier mentioned that you didn't make any mistakes, but did you make any mistakes? And if so, what was your biggest money mistake that you've made? So I wouldn't call it a mistake.

And as you said, like, there's no big ones. I mean, like, as we mentioned, when we first got to Seattle, we weren't maxing out of retirement accounts. Like, we weren't optimally investing in index funds. But those aren't really mistakes. Those are just small optimizations. The only thing that could be considered a mistake is that, like, so as I mentioned, I work at Amazon. And a lot of my compensation was in the form of Amazon stock.

And I did what the smart thing was, which was to sell it and buy index funds because it's important to diversify away from your employer. At least like that's the general advice out there is like you don't want your salary and like for us, our housing and all of our investments tied to the exact same company. So I sold them, bought index funds. And I mean, if you go look at historical performance of Amazon over the last three, four years, that was a terrible mistake. It was perfect hindsight. But I mean, I would totally do it again because I still think. it is the smart choice for most people who are rewarded in their own company's stock. I think that's very smart.

I think the way you just described it and the way you're thinking about it is very smart because you're saying, I have my philosophy in wealth building. And I stick to that philosophy. And it's sound and it's a well-research. And I know I'm doing the right thing. Got unlucky right on this one. Like there's nothing wrong with that, even though, yeah, obviously there was an opportunity cost there for at that particular company doing really well.

Yes, with perfect hindsight, of course I would keep them. But yeah, like you said, I stand by what we did and I still think it's the right financial move. Well, I will throw out one word, Enron. Yes. Exactly. There were a lot of Enron employees who got the Enron stock and kept it and their spouses worked at Enron and everything was wrapped up in Enron. And then all of a sudden, Enron is worth nothing. So all their retirement plans are gone.

And this wasn't just one person. significant chunk of Enron employees because the company culture there was just so pro-Enron. So it's great to sit here now when Amazon is up like 1,000 or 12,000 percent or whatever. But it could have just as easily gone the other way. Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely smart. Listeners, if you're interested in learning more about Enron, there's a really good documentary called Enron, the smartest guys in the room, which I think was on Netflix pretty recently,

but it may not be anymore. I think I watch it on Amazon Prime, so. There it is, yeah. That was a couple years ago, though. Throwing out the plugs. That's a fascinating. Yeah, when did that go down? Like 2000, early 2000s?

I remember listening to that on the news and just thinking, like, I'm so sad for all these people. Like, people who were a year away from retirement are now 50 years away from retirement. And unemployed. And unemployed. And like, same with their spouse. It was really devastating for a lot of people. Okay.

It's a good story to know. It's a good story to know. And yeah, not every company turns out as amazing as Amazon. Jeff's a pretty smart guy, though. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Yeah, I would say just track your expenses. Figure out exactly where your money is going and what you're spending your money on. You know, not many people realize, oh, I spent like five bucks a day on coffee.

or, you know, this much on alcohol or something like that. And then they kind of realize where it's all going and then they can figure out what to do from there. Yeah, just to add to that. I mean, like, it's amazing how many people just don't know where their money is going. And like you, the best way to do it, like, especially if you're just starting out, is just track without any judgment. Like, just write it all down. Don't think about whether it was good or bad or whatever else. Just track it.

And then after a month or maybe two or three months, like go back and look at it and see, does this spending match my values. Like, is this where I want my money to be going now and in the future and then adjust accordingly? Yeah, that's, that's great. Track without judgment. I love that. Okay, Scott. That's exactly, I could not like, that's exactly what I do with my spending, by the way, is I don't like keep a budget, but I just review it. And I'm like, you know what? Last month, I spent way too much money on beer. That's not my values, right? Yeah, and wing. Or well, I like, But like, like, that's not my values. You know, like, okay, I can change that.

And I think that's exactly right. It's not, I don't keep a budget. It's, I just react if I'm getting out of hand in any one category that is not reflective of my values. Yeah. We're in the same way. It's totally just reactive. We've never actually spent like, this is how much we're going to spend on restaurants every month. Like, we know about what it'll be based on past months.

But then we just try to keep keep it in our minds and just spend consciously, like, as we go without having a specific number in mind. Love it. All right. What's your favorite joke to tell at parties? Would you like to go first? You can go first. Oh, you two? We both have one.

Yeah, you're going to love them. Okay. So why did the old lady fall in a well? I don't know. Why? She didn't see that, well. You didn't love that, Scott? That's such a joke for you.

Well, I'm just coming up with my retort. You know, those two jokes drain me. So. Oh. I will say that I am continually impressed with how Scott just comes up with these really awful retorts. I really do that really well, don't I? Oh, God, I quit. There it is.

Okay. Why did the hipster burn his mouth? I don't know why. Because he ate his dinner before it was cool. I like that one. All right. We had two jokes today. Mindy, I was the exact same way.

I was laughing for like five minutes after I heard that. I'm like, I can't stop laughing. It's so funny. And I very rarely laugh at these jokes. See my response to Noah's joke. Yes. Sorry, Noah. Okay.

Becky and Noah, where can people find out more about you? So the easiest way is just on the blog. So I write a blog at Money Medigame. That's just kind of been tracking our financial journey and adding in various travel hacking credit card tips here and there and all sorts of fun stuff. So you can find me there, MoneyMedigame.com. And then I'm also on Twitter at MoneyMedigame, all one word. And then ever since we started this trip, so for the past few months, we've been posting awesome pictures of all the amazing national parks and everywhere else we've been to Instagram. And that's also just at Money Metagame.

So follow us wherever. I'm almost always online in one form or another. So feel free to reach out. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I know you're busy doing nothing for the next year. Yes. I really appreciate you earmarking some time for us.

And thank you for sharing your travel hacking. I learned a new travel hacking tip. I'm super excited. Now I'm going to go sign up for another credit card. No, thanks for having to. having us. This has been fun. Yeah, this has been great. Thanks. All right, that was Becky and Noah from Moneymetagame.com. Mindy, what did you think? Oh, my goodness. I love talking to Becky and Noah. Their story is fantastic. They're so smart. They're so forward thinking. And they're just such nice people.

And I wish I would have had the foresight back when I was 27 to, you know, save up a huge ton of money. I was not making the kind of salaries that they're making at age 27. I wasn't married. I didn't have any kids. And I had a very different life than they did. And I'm excited for them. And their gap year sounds like super fun, especially the whole part about not making any plans. I'm kind of jealous about that.

I'm still trying to convince Carl to stop planning every minute of our vacations. Yeah, I would love, I would like, I'm jealous. I would love to do something like that within the next couple of years. Maybe I will. And that's the, and that's the, I just again, like I said in the intro, that's the, that's the why, you know, is having the option and ability to do that. And good for them for giving themselves every advantage on this journey so that they could, and taking advantage of opportunities that they could put themselves in this position. Yeah, that is amazing. That is absolutely perfect.

Today, Scott, before we get out of here, since this episode is running a bit long today, I would like to throw in a couple of requests to our listeners. If you're listening and you're enjoying the show, please subscribe to the podcast on whatever podcast player you choose to listen to, you can subscribe on iTunes. We're on pretty much everything, SoundCloud Stitcher, podcast addict, like every place you can find a podcast you will find us. And we have very few Twitter followers for the Bigger Pockets Money podcast Twitter handle. So if you would please throw out a follow on Twitter. It's at BP Money Show on Twitter. We are at Bigger Pockets Money on Instagram. I am at Mindy at BP on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. And Scott, can you share your social media handles?

Mine is at S. Trench BP. However, I am not particularly active on Twitter. So follow me if you like. You're going to see you my last post from 20 December 2017. So there might be a new one coming and you'll get notified when you follow me. All right, Scott, shall we get out of here today? Let's get out of here. Okay, for episode 23 of the Bigger Pockets Money Show, this is Mindy Jensen, over and out.