BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 231: 'On the Road' to FIRE: The Massive Financial Benefits of Van Living

Episode Date: September 13, 2021

Not everyone has the vagabond spirit of those who choose to optionally live out of their cars, trucks, or vans. While this isn’t up Scott and Mindy’s alley, it’s been perfectly fine for today’s guests Tien and Brandon. After deciding to end their lease before a road trip, Tien and Brandon found living in their specialty-built van wasn’t just habitable, but preferable for their lifestyle. This was especially true after paying pricey southern California rent. All this happened after making some impressive financial moves; paying off $50k of loans in eight months, flipping their first house, and buying a small portfolio of duplexes. Tien and Brandon have made a spree of financially intelligent moves, pushing themselves into a high net worth category, all while living in one of the most beautiful places on earth. As of March 2021, Tien and Brandon dismantled their truly remote lifestyle to settle into their first short-term rental house hack. They’ve been pulling in $8,000 a month (yes, a month) from their San Diego Airbnb property, which is not only covering their entire mortgage but paying them some profits to boot! In This Episode We Cover Paying off a large amount of student debt in a short period of time  Finding side hustles that can support your saving and investing goals Making a plan to retire early and investing in income streams that will make it a reality Flipping a house without construction or real estate experience  Investing out of state where you already have family/friends/relationships  The hardest part of living in a van full-time (and its MAJOR benefits) House hacking with a short-term rental  And So Much More! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, show number 231, where we interview Tien and Brandon Rooney and talk about van life and rental properties. So they put all their money into real estate and they just kind of learned along the way. And so they ended up working for five extra years, but still retiring at 45. And they told us that story and we were like, we can do that. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me, as always, is my always Quick with the Joke co-host.

Scott Trench. Thanks, Mindy. We'll showcase that later with some good cheese jokes at the end. That was terrible. Oh, come on. All right. That was horrible. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less for just for somebody else,

to make really bad jokes, and to introduce you to every money story, because we truly do believe that financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel a world, and a van, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business. We'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the ways. You can watch yourself towards those dreams. Scott, I really, really am excited about this episode today. Tien and

Brandon are a young couple from Southern California who have traveled the world, traveled the U.S. in their van, and now have a property in a series of rental properties, including one that they used as Airbnb from their home base of Southern California. Yeah, I think what I observed about this couple, by the way, shout out to my mom, Mrs. Trench, that's Mrs. Trench to all of you, for introducing us to Tiet and Brandon today. So thank you, Mom. We appreciate more of references there. But anyways, what I think I observed about this couple is that they're flexible.

right and because they're flexible and creative and willing to experiment they've never put themselves in a position where i think the demands of their job or their lifestyle require them to lock down for a long period of time and they've exploited that advantage i think multiple times over the years uh with this you know whether that's spending six weeks in indiana to to do a flip or whether it's house hacking whether it's living in a van whether it's living in a van whether it's living with family in the basement, you know, or whatever it is. They're willing to do it. And that, I think, has created optionality for them, not only wealth, but optionality,

to try a bunch of different things, become wealthy in interesting and creative ways. And I think experience probably a lifestyle that I would be envious of in some ways. And not so envious of in other ways. I guess you'll see it. I think you'll see that it's interesting and unique. I think there's a lot of power behind the flexible and creative way that they've designed their lives and the opportunities that's afforded them. Yeah, what's that phrase, live like nobody else now so that you can live like nobody else

later? They kind of embody that. That's so just their creativity, their flexibility, their just willingness to do whatever it takes, whatever they're comfortable with to, to further themselves down the path to financial independence. And I just think that there's a lot of lessons to be learned here for everybody listening. I think that's right. And I also highlight one other point. When they were in debt, there was no comfort. There was none of like there was some comfort because they were living in Southern California. But they were willing to humble themselves and live with family and do

what it it took to pay off that debt before doing all this other creative stuff that they, that, you know, I think really drove their wealth from zero to hundreds of thousands of dollars. and close to financial freedom at this point. So I think that that's right. I think there's a tremendous amount of discipline and hustle living like no one else in order to get into that strong financial position where all the other opportunities we discussed in the show trickled down from. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full

financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going. and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier.

It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple.

Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow, every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get reports. placed by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with

Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know exist it. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier. Expenses, Income. income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's fowundd.com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking

services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get

Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments, you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BPMoney. Tien and Brandon Rooney, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you guys today. Thank you for having us.

So let's jump right into it. Where does your journey with money begin? So our journey with money, basically after we got out of college, I was lucky enough to not have any financial student debt. But Brandon had financial debt. And we just kind of started our W2 jobs, working, you know, regular 40-hour week type jobs. And then we kind of got the bug to travel a little bit. So through roundabout ways, we ended up moving abroad, traveling. and for nine months. And then when we came back, we realized, oh, we have all this debt we still

need to pay off and we don't have jobs. And we really need to get our finances in order. So we went really hard on the debt payoff. So we went, we rented a room instead of getting our own place. We started looking for jobs. And then basically, we just went really hard into budgeting and being super frugal. And then every month, we would take, Like to the very penny, how much money we had left over in our budget. And then we started by building up our three-month emergency fund. And then after that, we just took off the end of every month. Every penny that we had left over, we just put on the student loans.

And then we were able to get those paid off really quickly. So we did all his student loans, about $50,000. It was a student-in-car loan in about eight months. It sounds like your journey, it really begins. after you get back from the nine months of travel. That's when your financial journey kind of really hits the turbocharger, I guess, here. What were both of your jobs? What was your income?

What was the total debt? What was the snapshot of the picture at that moment in time? So at that time, we came back from, we were in Southeast Asia, teaching English, making basically enough to travel. And so when we came back, we didn't have jobs. We actually started working part-time for a startup, which was awesome because it actually got us moving forward in our entrepreneurial spirit. But it paid very little out front. I want to say I was working like 20 hours out of that job.

TN started like a month later. And she was at that time, they bumped us both up to about 40 hours a week. and we were making, prior to any bonuses, we were making about 50 each, 50,000 each. Okay, and where are you living during this period? So that was kind of where we really made our moves. I was living with my sister. So when we came back, she loves hosting people,

and luckily she was down to host us. And so basically we made an agreement. We would pay for, all their HOAs, they live in St. Clemente and so they had pretty high HOA. So we paid for their HOAs, which was $400 a month. And then we just kind of cooked for them every once in a while, watched her daughter and kind of did repay in that method as well. So we cut down our costs massively because in Seattle we were renting a place, which was

a good deal at the time for like $1,600. But going from 1600 down to 400. You paid off $50,000 in eight months making $100,000 a year and living in a very high cost of living area. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Oh, no, not quite. Well, we were in a very high area, but we moved from Seattle after traveling to San Clemente and lived with my sister.

And we just paid her HOA fees and took care of her daughter and stuff like that. Right. But everything else you say is right. Yeah. Everything else he said Mindy was right. Yeah, we were still able to pay him off in eight months. That's awesome. Was this right after college?

You guys were just graduated, and that's kind of the age range you guys are in at this point? So we had worked for two years and then traveled for nine months. So we were about 25 at the time. Okay, awesome. And what was the total debt? Was it 50K? Did you get back to zero during this period? Yeah.

So I had when I graduated about 30,000 in debt from Iowa State. And then I bought a car once I got out to Seattle for my first job because I had like a 1986 Bronco 2 that didn't make it from Iowa to Seattle. And so I ended up buying a new car, which obviously those come with the high price tag. And so I think at that time it was about my loan was. 20,000. So it came out to basically 50,000 almost on the dot in total debt. And it was all mine. Don't let 10. She was always good. Well, I think it's awesome. I mean, you had an opportunity here. San Clemente is like, I think one of the most beautiful places to live in the entire world.

It's right between L.A. and San Diego, right? I went there for a wedding a few years back and fell in one day. I'll spend a year in San Clemente. Go stay with Brandon's sister. She loves hosting people. She does. That's right. Yeah. No. But that's awesome. So you're living there. You're working these startup jobs.

You're acquiring some skills. You're using all of your advantages to, I think, great effect here. And you pay off all your debt in eight, nine months. What happens after that? So at that point, his sister really got us into Dave Ramsey, which it has pros and cons. But we were, like, really excited about paying off the debt. But then after that, Dave Ramsey doesn't have anything. left. So we were just kind of lost financially. We weren't really sure what to do. Um,

so we decided to try kind of a few side hustles. So I decided to get my tax license. So I started doing personal income taxes. And then, uh, Brandon actually was pursuing firefighting at the time, which is really competitive here in Southern California. So it can take years to get on. Um, so he was taking an academy at the time. And then I was working the second job as a tax preparer, which didn't necessarily pay as much as I was expecting, but we learned so much knowledge and information that we've been able to use in our business, that it's really just been invaluable in that respect. And then we tried a few other things. Like I tried to do, I open an Etsy shop and do some more like passive income for photography sales. And that also wasn't as lucrative as we

thought. So we kind of just tried a few different things. to make some passive income and then eventually landed in real estate. What year did you pay off the debt? When is that? We paid it off in, we came back, 2015, February 2015. That was the end of your debt paid out. We started basically in the summer of 2014 and then paid off in February of 2015. Okay, awesome.

And so in 2015, you're debt-free and you're trying to, Now you're like figuring stuff out. We have the firefighting. We have the tax preparer. It sounds like you're trying a number of different things. How long does that go on for? And how does your financial position evolve as you're trying and experimenting these things? So probably after.

So at that time, we were still actually working for this startup, which was a very small company. I mean, as far as the office goes, there was about five us. And then we had a call center and stuff. And so we got pretty heavy into that. And so we were making more money through. that I think we were up to like 70,000 each. And then as the time went on, we basically were able to get into the real estate in 2017. And I'll let TN take that because that was kind of driven by her family.

Well, going into, okay, great. So 2017 sounds like another inflection point here. What is your financial, is two years go by? Are you investing? Do you build up a cash cushion? How does that, what does that look like during that period? So at that time, we were just putting money in our Roth IRAs every year. And then we were essentially just stockpiling cash.

Like we were looking, I reached out to a couple different financial gurus. And we had talked to a bunch of other people that we knew who were kind of in the finance world. And everyone was just like, oh, we don't know what's happening with the housing market or with the economy. So, you know, like maybe cash is just the right way to do it right now. We did put a little bit of money in the stock market and we're actively trading. which we had continued to do for a few years and has been like somewhat lucrative, but it's a lot more stress. So we've leaned over the years more towards ETSs.

But in the meantime, that was basically we were just stockpiling as much cash as we could. And how much cash are you entering 2017 in your real estate investing strategy with? So in, let me pull up, I have all our numbers here. Oh, do you have a spreadsheet? Yeah. Oh, we have so many spreadsheets. So many spreadsheets. I just, while you're pulling that up, Brandon, I want to point out that this was, what,

2015, 2016? And you were saying, oh, we're uncertain where the market's going to go. And here we are. And I'm not like poking fun at you. I'm pointing out that we're uncertain where the market's going to go has been the mantra since, what, 2014, Scott, when the market started picking up in a lot of places. Ooh, it's starting to get hot. 2015, 2016, 2017, 2017, 2018.

Oh, should I wait for a crash? 2019, 2020. Here, 2020 has a worldwide pandemic in the real estate market didn't crash. Yeah. That's pretty crazy. Well, I think it's been uncertain since 1850. But it's been. What did mortgage just start?

While you're pulling that up also, when is the hook of financial independence sinking in? Is that from Dave Ramsey, like immediately back in 2014, 2015, or are you kind of like discovering that in this period as well? So actually that came from, that actually came from traveling. So when we were living in Seattle before that, we were working a ton. So I was working like 65, 70 hours a week. And then Brandon was working at a job that had a little bit more flexibility, but he was still working really hard for what he was getting paid. And so we were just like, maybe the.

corporate world is not as fun as we expected it to be. So that's when we just both left our jobs, decided to travel. And then we traveled for nine months and got hooked. And we were like, we love this. Like we love this freedom. We're not working that many hours. We're able to travel and climb and like do all the things that we love. And so we were like, we need to figure out a way to be able to do this more often. Love it. And so that became the goal instantaneously is to figure out how to sustain that indefinitely. Yeah. And that travel. I like to play a lot. So as long as As long as we can get more time playing, that's a great, great thing for me. And I think it was also 2016 that we also met another couple, and they had, through just

frugality and investments, decided that they were going to retire at 40. And then they're older than us. So then when their retirement date came around, it was like right around 2005, 2006. So right at the right time of the housing market, they had never invested in real estate, but they obviously had a ton of cash because they were trying to retire early. So they put all their money into real estate, and they just kind of learned along the way. And so they ended up working for five extra years,

but still retiring at 45. And they told us that story, and we were like, we can do that. And we can start earlier than 40. And so then we can reach financial independence earlier than 40. All right. So let's go through your actions that you took in 2017 in your position that you, Yeah, so we're in at that point.

So in 2000, basically at the end of 2016, we, we had about $90,000 in cash. So basically in just like a year and a half or a little over a year and a half, we had built up 90,000 in cash. And so in 2017, we were back in Indiana where TN's family lives. We were visiting and we're, they've done flips for like one or two a year. Um, just basically went to the sheriff's cell, found a house, would flip it really quickly, and they're successful with it. Uh, however, the sheriff's cell was kind of at that point, kind of not really a source of deals anymore. Uh, even though we still went to one, we tried to bid on a couple, nothing panned out, but then we went on a drive with their real estate agent. And that same day, we ended up putting an offer on a house, fix and flip, uh, in Indianapolis.

And then because the purchase price was the purchase price was going to be $90,000. We basically, that was all our cash. We approached TN's grandparents and asked them to be partners because they'd been doing the flips for years and we wanted to learn from them. So we ended up doing a 50-50 deal with them on cash and labor. And so we bought the house basically same day that we showed up in Indiana. And then I think we closed. a month later.

And then at that point, we went into the full fix and flip. And we were working full time as well. So you relocated to Indiana for this for real estate investing at this point. We relocated during the flip and then came back. Yeah, we still had our apartment here. But we just went and stayed there. And we did work all day for six weeks to get it ready to go. Yeah.

And you're still living with your family. in San Clemente during this period? At that point, we, so our jobs were in San Diego, so we'd moved down to San Diego and we were renting an apartment at that point. Okay, great. All right, so you're relocated to Indiana. What does that look like? Do you live in the flip?

Do you live with family? Do you rent a place? What's that look like while you're doing this project? Yeah, so we just actually lived with my family. Felt like we lived in the flip. Yeah, we would just wake up really early and we'd work for our W-2 jobs for about four hours. And then we'd go and work on the flip for about eight hours and then come back and work for our W2 jobs again for another four hours at night. And then like it was still the startup.

So it was relatively flexible and we were still able to get all our work done into everything we needed to do for that. So how long did this 16 hour day situation continue for? Six weeks. Six weeks. And how much four weeks for 16 hours? Then at the end it was like a little bit more like just tic tacky. Okay, great. So we're there for a month and a half.

Walk us through the numbers. How does that, how does that propel your situation forward? Yeah. So as far as that first flip that we did, we were in initially for the purchase of 90,000. And then it needed everything. Before we even got out there, we actually, we had them pave the driveway. We had them tear out some stuff. They have connections with different people to come clean out stuff.

So before we got out there, they started. And then once we got out there, we, We repain the whole thing, did all new flooring, put in a deck, new window, a bathroom kitchen, the whole thing. And we were 30,000 in upgrades. So basically 120 into the deal. And then at that point, I think our realtor was like, I think you guys could get 150 for it.

I'm like, well, that was a lot of work for 15,000 a person. So we ended up being like, well, we did a little comp work. we found that we could probably get like 190 180 and so we ended up commencing our realtor to go up to 180 and and then at the end of it we ended up finding a couple people that were interested and we got a buyer to offer at the asking and and then at that point we were we still had all the appraisal and stuff like that and the one thing we didn't do on the flip was the roof and then they wanted the roof done. So actually, that was included in the $30,000 upgrade.

So at the end of the day, we came out with $50,000 before you take out all the fees and everything. And that was split two ways. Okay. And so what happens next now? You've completed this flip. You have, you've made some money. You've proven the concept at the very least.

What do you do next? So after that flip, even though it was loose. We pretty much decided that we didn't want to do that again because of the super long hours. And then also, like, we paid to be in Southern California. And so it was kind of silly to be paying rent for six weeks, not living here. So we decided that rentals is how we wanted to go. So we basically just got on the rental train. And then, like we were saying, Mendi, we didn't know what was going to happen with the housing market.

So we just kind of like sat back and waited for a little bit, got a little bit. little bit more into stocks. And then we actually took a break. So Brandon, correct me if I'm wrong, but was that a three-year break before we bought our next deal? Two years. Yeah. So we just kind of saved up a lot and didn't act as quickly as we should have. And I, and I was getting hired by the fire department. So kind of took me out of commission for a good basically year. Okay. So in 2017, how do we kind of like peg your net worth? Is it like, like probably in the 100 to 150 range in that ballpark? In 2015, let me.

2017. Sorry, 2017. Yeah, so in 2017, our net worth, we're sitting around 220. Okay, and that's some stocks, the $90,000 in cash, the flip, you know, all the puts and and takes there kind of coming out of that, you're at 220. Yep. And then what happens when you, after your break? So two years go by, I assume you're still saving and investing to,

some degree passively. Where are you after that, after that break? Three hundred, about three hundred thousand. Yeah. Okay. And now, now you're saying life, life circumstances are right again for real estate investing. What do you do? What are the, what are the investments you make there? Yeah. So our realtor brought us another, um, off market deal. So it was a, basically there was one person who was in a lot of tax issues. And so he was trying to sell off all his properties. So he had 30-something units to sell off, I think, that he was looking for. And this is in Indiana? This is in Indiana, yes. And so we went in with a couple different people. So we had a few family members that were looking to do some flips. And our realtor actually

brought in some other people that we never even knew or met. And so as a group, we collectively agreed to buy, I think, like 24 of the units for, we individually priced them, but when we made the offer, the offer was as a bulk deal. So we were purchasing four of those. It ended up because of the IRS situation. It took about six months to close, and they were only closing one deal at a time, or one unit at a time. So we, I mean, we didn't have, I don't want to say we didn't have anything else going on, but we didn't have any other deals in the pipeline. So we were fine to wait, and everyone else backed out. So they ended up honoring our deal still, which has been great, but we acquired four units, so two duplexes out of that deal. Okay. And what did that look like,

and how did that kind of accelerate your financial position there? Yeah. So that one, we basically leaded conventional financing, 25% down on $190,000. So that was per duplex. So total in, we were at the $380,000. And then we had, so a couple of them were rented. One was vacant. And then one had a tenant that was about to move out. So we basically were setting aside money so that when people moved out,

we could update them all. So we started the updating process on the one that was vacant and then was getting those rented. And those will rent for at the time when we first got it, we were looking at about $9.50,000 for rent. And then now it's closer to the $1,200. And those basically, yeah. How long does it take between offer, close, and stabilizing the units with the new higher

rents? It was about five months from offer to close because of the whole tax lien. And then as far as the flip it, we had two basically pretty solid tenants for a year that we didn't have to do anything for stabilizing. And then the one unit we basically did in about a month, TN went back out and flipped that. And then as the other unit became vacant, that one was less work and only took about two weeks. And we had renters in it within probably two weeks for both of those being finished. That's awesome.

So six weeks probably to stabilize. Okay, great. And so where are we now? And what comes after this? So after this, this, 2019. 2019. So, yep, this is 2019. In the meantime, we have been building out a van.

And so we needed a second car because when we lived in San Diego, we worked together. We worked about a block away from our house. So we ended up going down to one car because we didn't need the second one. And then when he got on the fire department, we obviously needed a second car. He's gone for 24 hours sometimes. And we had thought about getting a van and just in the past. And so we were like, let's just get that as our second car. So we got a van, basically like the Amazon delivery vans.

And then we spent about a year building now ourselves. so into basically a camper. So by the end of our lease at this point, we had moved up to Orange County again for a year. We were renting an apartment and then just to be a little bit closer to his work. And then we decided that we should try to live in it. So we were going on a road trip anyway. So we're like, our lease is ending. We're going on a two-month road trip.

Let's go ahead and just not rent. And then we'll just live in it as long as we can. And so we ended up living in that for a year and a half. And then in the meantime, while we're living in it, we also bought another rental. Okay. I want to talk about this van for a while because I have seen these vans and they look super cool. But where do you shower? Where do you do all of your bathroom business?

So yeah. Because they don't have a bathroom. So we do actually have a composting toilet in our van, which, which sounds pretty gross, but surprisingly, is not. So basically, it's a toilet that will compost the solid waste, and then the liquid waste separates. You separate it, and so you dispose of them total. But, uh, so you lived, but, but you, when did you move into the van?

So we moved into the van in 2000. August 31st, 2019. 2019, yeah. So basically at the same time as fine. And are you still maintaining your jobs during that period living in the van? We are, yes. So we actually still have the second car. And so we would park his car because he would need to take it to work. So we would just park it around the area. And then we would pretty much just be in the van unless he was working. And then I worked from home already. And so I would just work from home in the, in the van. Why make the move? What was the rationale behind it? So we are, we like to camp and rock climb. And so I think the van trend has been growing in the last few years. And so we're like, oh, it would be really fun to just have a van. So if we want to go on trips and we want to go, we don't have to like pack up anything. It's just always ready to go. So we wanted to build on

anyways. And then once we built it, like it has a bed and a fridge and a pantry and a closet. And it holds like our surfboards and all our climbing gear like it holds everything we need we put solar on it so we have that um so it was pretty self-sustaining anyways and so we figured if we were um gonna do a two-month road trip and not have an apartment anyways we could just kind of extend it as long as we could yeah so the goal and mindy to answer your earlier question um we have gym memberships and so uh we worked out quite a bit because whenever we need to shower we felt guilty just like going in there to shower, so we'd go in and work out. Yeah.

What was like, was there a bent on the financial independence thing? Was that, was that a part of the rationale? Or was it really kind of just more, that's the lifestyle that you were looking for? It was, it was a, I would say it's like twofold a little bit. We basically, we were building it. And then the timing just worked out perfect out. It was like, well, let's not up. Like, there's no reason to pay rent.

So like from a financial perspective, we're like, be gone for two months we might as well not pay rent that makes no sense um so then we're like well i guess we might as well not pay rent for like six months and just try it out and then so we basically like we just set a date you're like oh we'll go and see how it goes and then it ended up being that we just like all right we'll just stay in it until we buy a house we're not paying rent anymore so that was kind of how that came about and we knew if we stayed in it for six months it would pay for the renovations in the van so it's kind of like if we can last six months then the the renovations will have essentially been free.

And then we were able to, just with all of our calculations, we saved about $30,000 in, like, rent utilities, internet, all that stuff over the year and a half. So that also set us forward quite a bit. Do you have pictures of the van that we could share on the show notes? I do. Yes. I can send you some pictures. I think that would be great.

Yeah, we'd love to see the inside out, the whole deal with this thing. Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead, Mindy. I can hear people saying, I could never live in a van. I would also say that. So what was the hardest part about living in the van? Because clearly the easiest part of living in a van is not paying rent. That sounds super awesome.

But like where are you parking it? Does it come with electric cookups or, you know, do you need a solar thing? I have a friend who has a sprinter van with like the whole top is covered with like solar, solar, I don't know, maths or something. Yeah. So we have. Okay. So we did have solar as well.

We never had to hook up or anything. We're pretty much self-sustaining. So we had all our own water. We have a kitchen sink. Like, we have everything in it. So as far as where we park, so we're really lucky to be in, like, a great weather area. So we don't have a heater or an AC in it. So we just, like, would open the windows.

We had a fan that would circulate some air. But we all day in California, you can buy a beach pass. And so I would park at the beach every day and it opens from 6 to 10. So I would essentially live at the beach from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day. I'd work from there. We both surf and we would just basically hang out there. And then at night, you can just park like in the neighborhoods, essentially. Or there's like areas close to the beach that you can just park. And we would just come in late and have already like gotten ready for bed, brush our teeth, everything. Parked there for the night and then leave again at like 6 a.m. the next morning.

Yeah, we always try to be, like, respectful of the neighborhoods we're in, so we wouldn't ever, like, park in front of somebody's house. It would always be, like, across the street from a parking lot or something in neighborhoods. And then, but yeah, I mean, as far as just kind of the difficulty of it, there is, say, if it did rain in California, which is rare, you're stuck in this, like, 200 square foot space with another person trying to do stuff. When the doors are open, it's great. And then you're basically, every time you're in, like going to bed, you have to be super quiet. We're just like always worried about somebody like calling the cops on us, which that never happened. I think there was only one time the cops knocked on our door. And we were luckily already awake and already ready to leave.

And we were not in California even. So that you were respectful of the neighborhoods you were in. You didn't park in front of somebody's house. There, let's see. How do I say this? Van life can be looked down upon by municipalities. Oh, yeah. But, I mean, if you're out in somebody's parking lot.

Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not putting all your garbage around, like, there's some RVs in my town where they park and literally everything comes out and it's just all over the ground. That doesn't look nice. Yeah. We basically tried to make it look like we were up. Not there.

Like, I don't know. Like a commercial. banner that no one was in it. Like we try to be as quiet as possible and we never really went in. We would basically just park somewhere to go to sleep and then wake up and drive away. TN's plumbing on the side. Yeah, exactly. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going and more important.

where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place.

So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed.

When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts.

You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets.

Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place.

Build your complete business identity with Northwest Today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. With over 1,500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business.

They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data. And all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free.

So let's talk about all your stuff. What did you do with all your stuff while you moved out of your apartment and into a van? Yeah, so we kept everything in a storage unit. And then we kept it pretty organized and we had a couple of dressers in there. So that way, like when it, not that the weather changes all that much in Southern California, but, you know, like when it got cooler, we could switch out some of our summer clothes for winter and stuff like that. But we just kept a close by storage unit. And so if we ever needed anything, we could grab it pretty easily.

And this got you, you said this got you $30,000 ahead of the game by living in a van for how long did you live in there? A year and a half. Okay. You must have liked it to stay there for longer than the first six months. Is that right? Yeah, we actually ended up really liking it. And for us, it was like a great way to travel. So we took a couple of like one to two month road trips.

And then Brennan would just fly back and work for basically like a week straight and then fly back to me. So we got to see a lot of stuff. We spent a ton of time at the beach. And we played a bunch. Like we also obviously worked hard and still kept our investing. But we were able to play a lot. And we realize now, like, we just bought a house, which I'm sure we'll get into. But it's like, I feel like in the last two months, we've seen like two sunsets where in the van, like you see every beach sunset and you see all these cool places.

So it's a cool lifestyle, but a year and a half is a good amount. So what's your financial position after you kind of end the van stint here for 18 months? And what year are we in with the end of the living in the van? So 2021, we actually just ended it in February, well, I guess March of this year. Yeah, and where are you guys at the financial journey? So at that point, we actually had already, we had acquired a third duplex in Indiana as well. And so we were sitting about our net worth in February was about 480. So we had made a pretty good jump from our investments as well as money saving from over that.

year and a half. And we're basically ready to buy a house because TN. was working out of a tiny van. So what's that, what's that transition look like? What, where do you buy? What happens in the last couple of months here?

Yeah. So we started looking, we were more looking in Orange County just because he works up in L.A. And pricing, I'm not that San Diego is cheap by any means, but Orange County is, pretty hefty price tags. So we started looking, we were trying to decide, do we want a townhome?

Do we want our own house? Our dream was to have like a house with a mother-in-law so that we could house hack. And we ended up finding something. Well, we weren't even looking in San Diego. We loved San Diego. We lived here for about four years. And so we have a community here and we eventually wanted to live here. But we just came down and we're having dinner with friends and something popped up on

Redfin, like, oh, this house just came for sale in your area. and it was like less than 10 minutes away. So I scheduled a time with our realtor, went and looked at it, and it was a house with a mother-in-law. And so we decided to make an offer on it. And obviously went through all the normal negotiations and stuff. But they rented back for two weeks, and then we moved into it in March,

and then basically started renovations on that. And, yeah, we can get into that, I guess, if we're ready. Yeah, that's awesome. Let's do it. Yeah. So the back house is connected to a garage. So it's a garage. And basically they walled off half the garage.

And they used it as a man cave. So it had a bathroom in it and a lazy boy and a TV. And that was it. That was back there. But it's a pretty big space. And so we figured we could do more with it. So when we first moved in here, the day we moved in, we started ripping out the floors in the main house because they had old carpet in the bedrooms.

So that first week we moved in, we basically moved our stuff into the garage and then we're like still sleeping in the van in the driveway. And then we renovated the floors in the bedrooms and then started furnishing it and we decided that we're going to do a short-term rental Airbnb in it. So worked on furnishing it a bunch and then kind of. started moving into the backhouse but not doing any renovations. And then once the front house was ready to go, then we started renovating the back house. We painted, redid the floors, and then had some contractor come out and help us, like, switch out, because it already had water and electric back there. They just didn't have a kitchen. So we built a full kitchen in there

and just got that all ready and livable. So we live in the back and Airbnb, be the And how does that look? How does that working out financially for you guys? Yeah. So with the front house, we basically, the reason we went with short-term rentals was just the travel bug right now is insane. Everything is crazy high prices. And so we decided we try to at least capitalize during the summer on San Diego visitation.

Because during the summer, it's really busy, but it actually slows down a lot the rest of the year. So that was kind of our. our thought for the summer. And so, yeah, during the summer, it was really good. We basically, we would get about 80 to 90% occupancy in the front house. And we were making about $8,000 a month. And then we've already seen like a slowdown August, like was really busy the first couple weeks.

It's like already slowing down. So we're basically looking to pivot to more of a 30-day furnished finder traveling nurses. But now that the summer's coming in, but we want to capitalize just on that opportunity of the summer. And next year, they're changing the laws with Airbnb and San Diego. So we go, we might as well take it while we can. And then if we can apply and get the permit for next year, we'll probably try to do it again next summer. And is it legally two units or is it one house? So they basically, they made it into an ADU, but it's not like addressed. two units. Yeah, I want to point out something here that is, I think, really smart about what

you guys are doing, is many jurisdictions, probably where you live, have rules around Airbnb that say it can only rent out your primary residence and that at a certain percentage of the time. And that's annoying to a lot of folks in your situation. But it's also an enormous competitive advantage because nobody else can do that either, right? So the only way you can actually get an Airbnb listing in that is if you're kind of doing something like what you're. you're doing where it's one address and you're in that situation. And so that's an incredibly powerful tool to get started with a lot of these. I met another couple recently that's doing that in Denver and they're very annoyed that they can't scale the thing. I'm like, the whole reason that

you're able to get these incredible rents, $8,000 a month and that kind of stuff on, I would assume it would rent for less than $3,000 or around that as a traditional rental or something in that ballpark is because of these laws. And so I think that's, I think that's, I'm a lot of, That's really cool and smart of you guys. I want to throw out there another suggestion since you all, do you still have the van? Yes. Okay. So you still have the van and now you have a legal front house.

You have a legal back house. Maybe you rent out the backhouse during the summer as well and just sleep in the van. We have also talked about that. I mean, what percentage of your mortgage is being paid over the summer with the rentals in the front house? 100% 100% well but not for the whole year is that what you're asking or is it well no uh for the months that it's rented it's 100% is it 100 plus percent because then I mean if you could get your entire mortgage yeah if you can get your entire mortgage paid by living in the van for the summer yeah that seems like a really sweet yeah we've talked yeah we've talked about too like uh because we're hoping

to go somewhere for a month later this year like oh we'll just rent out the back while we're gone for a but yeah i guess yeah we'll we'll see when that comes up if we go for it or not we have to move all our personal stuff and stuff like that so we will into the garage exactly or into a rental into a storage unit yeah we actually also talked about just renting the van out since it's just sitting there we'll do that too yeah well what what yeah well i think that's a great question what what is next for you guys now you've got it sounds it seems like you guys are really open to creative, awesome, you know, experiments with this kind of stuff, you're clearly able to get a really good lifestyle as a result of that in the interim and build a lot of wealth.

What is your kind of end goal? So our end goal is buy and hold. And so we want to be able, I guess for our long-term goal is to be able to generate $250,000 a year and then just through our investments. And then we could essentially just live off that. But our next moves are. I actually, through bigger pockets, met a couple of women. And so we started a mastermind. And we've gotten really close over the last year and just over a year. And one of them, we're actually going to be partnering with and doing our first bur.

So we're going to hopefully be doing our first burr, get that completed before the end of the year. We're selling the one property that we bought during the pandemic. We're actually going to be selling that one and using those funds to do the first burr. And then hopefully that's just a partnership that we can continue to leverage. So it's back in the Midwest as well. So she's in Louisville. So we're going to be essentially funding the deal and doing all of the remote admin type work. And then she has crews because she's an investor as well.

So she has crews that are going to be doing the renovation. And she's got lenders and all that stuff. So we're basically bringing our talents together. And then we're going to do a deal. and then hopefully we can find a couple more single-family burs over the next couple of years. And then we'd also like to get into at least one larger multifamily like apartment building or something like that. Awesome. And what do you guys doing for work right now? So I work for Los Angeles County Fire Department and just been doing that. I've a little over three years.

And so that comes with a lot of side benefits, but the biggest, I would say, benefit is flexibility and schedule. just being able to trade days and make my own schedule kind of. Yeah, and I work for the same startup that we worked, that we started working for. It's gone through different ownerships now. So we're definitely not in startup mode anymore. But I work for the same company. So I still, I'm 100% remote and do everything online. I just want to chime in here with regards to the partnership.

I don't know you. I don't know who is doing the partnership with you. this is just general advice, not casting aspersions on anyone's character, but get everything in writing. And this is for anybody listening as well. If you are considering a real estate partnership, think of the worst case scenario. Because of course, oh, what's the best case scenario? We make a lot of money. How are we going to handle that? But exactly how are you going to handle that? Are you going to get 40% or 50%? Or is it like a six-way partnership and each person gets whatever 100 divided by six is.

Is it, you know, is the person getting more money because they coordinated the deal? Who is going to put more money in if, you know, you open up the walls and there's a huge problem? What happens if you decide that you want to keep the property and somebody else wants to sell it? Do you have first right of refusal to, you know, purchase it from them? Just all these weird things because circumstances change in the, over the course of a flip and I just I'm in the bigger pockets forums every single day and I see people talking about how their flip turned into a huge disaster or their partner I'm sorry their partnership turned into a huge disaster and it almost always stems from oh we were friends before and we you know

I trust him and they didn't get everything in writing so it's just I think it's really important to just kind of brainstorm like right now you're all still friends and that's great and the goal is to not only make money in the real estate adventure, but also to be friends at the end of it. So setting expectations up front is so, so, so important. So thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Yeah. And I agree. Awesome. What else should we be asking about our covering for your story before we move on to The Famous Four? Honestly, yeah, we talked about all I think our financial stuff pretty much in pretty good detail. So, yeah, unless you have any other questions. Well, I don't think I have too many more questions.

I just, I love the fact that you were able to do this all in Southern California while not making huge salaries, you know, with a lot of that. And I think that that's really cool. I mean, you used a couple of advantages and got really creative. But I think it sounds like you were able to amass a lot of wealth and freedom and do so while really enjoying, I think, one of the most beautiful places on the planet, maybe more so than most. Yeah, it's been a wild ride for sure. I got my first gray hair on the first week of our Airbnb, so that's... If this is a good glimpse into the short-term rental world. Okay, well, we're not done yet.

It is now time for the famous four. Tien, and this is both of you can answer each question. So Tien, what is your favorite finance book? Okay, so to be honest, I already attend of finance-specific books, but I read an insane amount of real estate books. So I guess real estate books is probably what's taking it over. But I will say like finance-related cash flow quadrant. I did like that one.

It was just a good perspective as to the mindset that we really need to be in and switching from because right now we're employees. So we need to switch out of that box and really get into the other quadrants. But yeah. So I guess finance, that would be my first, my favorite. Awesome. I've read a number of those books and that one's always a good one. What was your biggest money mistake?

No, no, no, no, no. What is Brandon's favorite finance book, Scott? I'm sorry, Brandon. No worries. My bad. Go ahead, Brandon. I don't read so well, so it's okay. Probably profit first by Mike Pahlowitz.

Basically, I think for me, I like to try to keep a more logical and higher view on projects and stuff. And I feel like with profit first, it's a good, like, hey, why are you doing this? And make sure you're actually setting the money side to do what you really want to do versus just if you invest all your money, then you're basically doing nothing. All right. What was your biggest money mistake? Well, mine is probably marrying Brandon.

Taking on all that debt. My greatest one, my greatest one was married. Tagging on to that. Did you guys talk about money before you got married? Yeah, we did actually talk about money. Yeah, we've always been pretty open about it. She knew what she was getting into. Don't let her fool you.

Okay. No, so I think for me, our biggest money mistake is just not starting sooner. So it's kind of too full because I feel like the travel really got us, the financial independence bug and like really um made us want to be financially independent but it was also a year where we could have we lived in seattle at the time we could have bought a house in Seattle. We could have bought a house when we lived there and rented it out when we traveled. Um, so just not starting sooner.

Brandon. Oh, I mean, I think she nailed it as far as I think if not leveraging the ability for like all those first time home buyer opportunities early on. Like, we basically went straight to conventional, thinking that was really the only option. So maybe the education and just the ability to just get after it earlier was our biggest mistake, I would say. And Brandon always says he wishes we had bought our personal home earlier because we owned six rental units before our home now. I think that's really powerful reflection there because, yeah, I think that the greatest amount of leverage and the best term you can get are on those first first home purchases.

And like everyone's fleeing California to buy in Indiana. But at the same time, like if you guys had bought and you guys are obviously very successful, so they'll take this away with me. But like maybe if you guys had bought in Orange County or San Diego with that, there could be a lot more wealth going on right now in addition to what the great stuff that you've done with that. So I think it's really powerful advice to sit back and be like, yeah, wherever I'm at using my home, at least at first as like the first couple of years of the journey can be a huge accelerator on the journey to financial independence. I think that's a really good reflection there.

What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Yeah. So I think for me, I have a love affair with budgeting. And so I think you just, you have to be tracking all of your income and your expenses. Like every dollar that comes in should be tracked and every dollar that goes out should be tracked. And then I really loved, Like we would get so excited for the end of the month because we'd see how much we had saved in the budget. It's like, oh, it was $491.75. And we would literally go in to the student loan portal and put in like $491 and whatever I said, 27 cents. And like just being able to see that pay down for me, and I don't, I almost be for granted.

But for me, that was like so exciting. And that was where we really like, once we paid off loans, we were like, now what? Now what do we do? So I think it's just like you really need to be tracking everything that comes in and everything that goes out. Yeah, and they've made a lot of tools now to make it super simple for anybody. Like originally back in 2013, I created an Excel sheet and was doing it all manually, which was, I think, very valuable in the sense that we were actually tracking it and feeling that pain of every expense. But then, but just even if that's too much work using like mint, we use mint now, it's just so much easier for people to get an actual idea of what they're spending their money on and where they can save money.

All right. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? So the joke I always tell, like trying to make someone laugh and cheer somebody up is what kind of cheese isn't yours? I don't know. Natcho cheese. All right. Right. I love it. I have a cheesy pizza joke, but I won't tell it right now. Brandon, how about you?

So this is for our friends. Their little boy, he's pretty awesome. Me and my buddy, we went through the fire tower together, and so he's a little weird trying to open a pressure cooker once, and his little boy says, how many firefighters does it take to open a pressure cooker? There's no really answered, but he's taking a stab at us. It took like an hour to get the pressure good girl. Hey. Oh my gosh. So more than two is the answer.

Okay. Where could people find out more about you? Yeah. So honestly, I think email is the best way. So our company's name is 512 real estate, which is a climbing grade or like a type of climbing route. And so it's spelled out 512 real estate at gmail.com. And then I also, on Instagram, I am true freedom. So T-R-O-O-O-F freedom.

And I just put a lot of like our renovation type stuff, a lot of DIY before and afters of like lately we've just been, I've been showcasing all the stuff that we've been doing in the backhouse. So I just put a lot of real estate and renovation type stuff on there. Awesome. We will include those. We will include links to all of that in our show notes, which can be found. at BiggerPockets.com slash Money Show 2-3-1. Tien and Brandon

And can we get pictures of the van there to post on the show notes as well? Yeah. Yeah, I'll some of those are right now. I'm very interested to see all of those. Yeah, and those about the show notes like Mindy said at MoneyShopoges.com slash Money Show 231. Awesome. Okay.

I can't wait to see those pictures. Tienna and Brandon, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. Awesome. Thank you so much for having us. Okay, we'll talk to you soon. All right, have a good day. Thank you.

All right, that was Tien and Brandon. Scott, I know you like their story. What did you think? I love that. I think I'm kind of jealous. I think how many sunsets over the Pacific Ocean, you know, have they seen as a result of that, right? Like, are you willing to, are you willing to do that? I don't know.

I don't know if I'd be willing to do that. I don't know. but I am envious of the glorious days they must have had for years and years and years, or for at least 18 months, in that journey and the fact that it's got them so far ahead on their financial journey with that. So I think it's really cool. And I think it's a perspective worth sharing. Yeah. I am not willing to do that, but I'm excited for the fact that they were able to. And I know that you're not willing to do it, Scott, because you haven't. Nope. So jump in advance, Scott. I just don't.

want to live in a van. I don't like road trips. I did house hack for seven years. And I think I would have been willing to house hack, you know, in a creative situation there. I think the van, yeah, I think if you're listening to this and you're in your early 20s or coming out of college, this is a potentially great way to spend a year in your early 20s doing something like this if you want to save up that extra money with that. But yeah, I think it's awesome. Yeah, I do too. Okay, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. episode 231 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Indy Jensen saying,

enjoy the shower flower.