BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 241: The Keys to Free College, Graduating Early, & Retiring with $10 Million

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

Amber Porter has one of the most optimized retirement plans we’ve ever seen. Seriously, she could give Mindy and Scott a run for their money! Amber grew up in a neighborhood that was anything but rich. Surprisingly, the wealthier people in her neighborhood were more interested in purchasing nice cars instead of investing, which they told her was essentially gambling. Amber quickly saw past this idea and realized that smart, consistent investing could lead her to many millions of dollars. She worked throughout high school and was able to graduate in only three years. Then, she applied for every scholarship possible and did the same in college, graduating in three years and completely debt-free. Suddenly, the idea of law school came into her head. She studied, passed the entrance exam, and got into a top school. The same school even gave her a twenty-five thousand dollar scholarship every year she attended. After graduating, she started investing heavily, working as much as she could to fund retirement accounts. She started working for the Army on the side, which allowed her to get an even better retirement plan, an army retirement check, and the ability to buy homes with a zero percent down VA loan. If all goes to plan, Amber will be retiring with close to ten million dollars at age fifty!  In This Episode We Cover How to graduate from college debt-free by taking advantage of scholarships  Graduating early so you can save a year's worth of tuition  Working a government job with the benefit of a pension upon retirement  Military benefits for homeownership, retirement investing, and more Getting rid of the “investing is gambling” fear many people have Reaching Fat FIRE upon retirement so you can live exactly how you dreamed And So Much More! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 241, where we interview Amber Porter from Minority Millennial Money Podcast and talk about paying for college, simple investment strategies that grow real wealth, and just in general, absolutely crushing life. I think that a lot of it is ignorance, unfortunately. A lot of it is that people lack knowledge and they don't know anybody who's doing it. And they're, you know, focused on like get rich, quick schemes, I think. When you don't have a lot of money, you want money. to multiply really fast. But it really is about the long game.

And, you know, it's really important that you are investing for the future and you see the money grow over time. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And joining me today as guest host is David Perrae from the military millionaire group and podcast. From time to time, Scott is unavailable to record. Rather than miss a week, I'm calling on all my smart friends to fill in for him.

David last joined us on episode 179, where we titled his episode, The Guy Who Did Everything Wrong, but Still Figured It Out. So today, I'm bringing sexy Beth, the man, the myth, the mustache, David Perret. Thank you so much for immortalizing that you have called me smart online, and thanks for having me. You're very smart, David. You're not even a crayon eater. Oh, I am. Yeah, absolutely. That's a military gym. If you don't like it, email David because he's the one who told it.

David and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe that financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world or go on to big big time investments in assets like real estate, graduate college debt-free, or start your own business. we will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way for that you can launch yourself towards your dreams. Hope that you are getting comfortable because you are going to be blown away by Amber's story today. She has so much ambition and such a strong work ethic.

She makes your marine self look like a lazy bum. Oh, I know. It was insane. She's the student my mom wishes she had. She's the student every day. Everybody wishes they had. Yeah, she's a student my mom wishes I would be. This is a phenomenal episode.

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I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leaner Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive video book. massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app.

If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Amber Porter, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to you today. Thanks. I'm excited to be here.

Let's jump right into it because I know we have a lot. of ground to cover. Where does your journey with money begin? Yeah, sure. So I would say it probably began my last year of high school when I was planning for college. I've told the story a bunch of times on a lot of different platforms, but I actually applied to over 100 scholarships in order to get money to go to college. I was from kind of a smaller town in Chicago and didn't have a lot of growing up. And so I knew that I had to fund my own education if I wanted to not be poor anymore. So I just, I had actually graduated high school in three years. So my third year, which was my junior years when I was going to be graduating. And I literally went to the counselor's office every

single morning. And I just sat there for an hour or two before school started every single day. and I just felt out scholarship applications after scholarship applications. I don't think people realize like how much money there is out there for people. Like not even just based on race. You know, there's socioeconomic status. If you're right handed. If you like to read books. Like there's so many scholarships out there for everyone.

So I just literally applied to so many of them. I think I got like 10 or 15 scholarships, which ended up paying for the majority of my undergraduate college. And I worked full time during college. And so I actually graduated college debt free. And I think that's where I started to really understand, you know, what I wanted to do. I knew that I wanted to pursue journalism, which is a difficult career at the time as far as money. And so I didn't want to have any debt. And so that's what I did. Wow. Okay. So you casually, did you catch this, David? and she casually threw out there that she graduated high school in three years. How do you graduate high school in three years?

I mean, that's, so you're graduated when you were like 16 or 17? 16, I walked across the stage at graduation. Did you just take massive loads of summer school? How do you get out so quickly? Well, in eighth grade, I was in like an accelerated gifted program where I think two or three classes, they've actually bused us to a high school to take classes. And so I actually got high school crows. for those classes. In addition, I skipped lunch. You could wave lunch at my high school. And you could also

take a zero period in the morning and get there early. And then you could also do correspondence school. So you could do like school by mail. And so that's what I did on the weekends. I did school by mail. I did morning school. I did lunch school. And so after three years, I was done with all of my credits. and I graduated and I went to college. Wow. Sorry you don't have any ambition. So my wife is actually a high school. This is a crazy story. I love that. I'm sorry, David.

I jumped right in front of you, but holy cow. I didn't point at myself. No, you didn't. I'll point at you. Yeah. So my wife is a high school counselor. And so every year there's like maybe two or three people who graduate at semester, maybe 10 out of a class of like three or 400. And it is extremely rare that somebody graduates at the

end of junior year. I think I know of like one or two over the last like four or five years that she's been doing it. So I mean, that's that speaks to your work ethic on the school side. But I think it also translates into the work ethic for the scholarships, which is great because like there's so much money in scholarships, but people don't put in the effort to apply. It kind of, it my, my wife was senior counselor last year, and they drives her nuts because she's like, these kids have so many opportunities if they, if they just like, just write the essay or just like fill out the scholarship piece. So the fact that you were not only able and willing to finish high school in three years, but then also applied for like a hundred scholarships. It's just, man, you set yourself up

for success. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. And did you hear her say that she got 10 or 15 that basically paid for her entire undergrad degree? That's, wow. Yeah, your work ethic is amazing. And I hope if you're ever looking for a job, you put that in there. Hey, I graduated high school in three years because I did all this extra stuff. I mean, what employer would not want to have Amber as their employee because I bet you knock it out of the park as an employee too? You can't have the work ethic at 12, at 13, at 14, have the work ethic to take on all of this extra when I'm sure. none of your friends were doing it. I've never even heard of this. I know none of my friends were doing

any of this. I certainly didn't do it. This is amazing to have this work ethic then. You don't go from 12 crushing it to like, you know, okay, I graduated. I'm 16. I'm just going to do nothing for the rest of my life. Do you just see any bonbons all day? You just, you know, by the pool lounging. You know, funny enough, I think people think that, you know, it took a lot more ever than it actually did. So I talk about this in one of my books. Like I was actually able to automate a lot of it because a lot of the scholarship asked for, you know, your generic personal statement. And so you write one essay, you can apply to probably at least 50 scholarships with that

same essay. Same thing that goes for like the recommendation letters that they want for those scholarships. You know, I had three or four people in my life who were, you know, teachers or other adults that were mentors. I had them write letters and I had them write to whom it may concern or. or to scholarship committee. I just made copies. And, you know, and back then, everything was by mail.

So I literally just had a stack of, you know, letters or recommendation, a stack of personal statements. And I was stuff in envelopes, you know? You know, maybe you had to fill out an application that asked for your, you know, your contact information for each one. But other than that, like, I had it down to a science, basically. It works smart, not hard. So it wasn't really a.

as, you know, difficult maybe as people may think. Okay. I am going to say, no, it was an enormous effort. You should be applauded. I am trying to celebrate you because this is fabulous. This story for all the moms, the high school kids that are listening right now, go back, rewind a couple of minutes, and listen to her again on regular speed. Because I know people listen to podcasts at 2X.

Go back and listen to her on regular. speed. She had an essay that she would use, and I'm sure tweak to each separate person, but use this same essay. Spend time writing a killer essay and then tweak it a little bit. You only have to write that one killer essay, like you said, for 50 or 60 different scholarships and get these really, really, really great letters of recommendation and use them over and over again. But don't downplay the fact that you crushed life at 16 and 12 and 15. And that's amazing. But yes, when you're applying for scholarships, first of all, apply for every single one of them. My cousin, I have an enormous range of age in my family. And I have a cousin who just graduated.

No, she just went into college. And she's, her mom said, we sat down. And any scholar, that we had a remote chance of getting. Like, her dad's not a firefighter, so she didn't apply for the Firefighter's Children's Scholarship or whatever. But anything she was remotely able to apply for, she applied for because she wasn't writing a brand new essay every single time. She wasn't getting going out and then trying to find more people to give her a letter of recommendation.

She just had her staff. And she's like, ooh, they want, this is for women. And so I'm going to get all these ladies who gave me a recommendation. And I'm going to tweak my essay. And every time, like, you got 10 scholarships to pay for college. How much were these scholarships that you're getting? It sounds like five-figure scholarships, right? So it depended, really.

At the time, tuition was $16,000 and room and board was about $10,000. So we're looking at about, you know, I don't do math well, but about $26,000 a year at that time. A year. Times four. So that's $100. Right. So a lot of the scholarships I got were low-hanging fruit, like Walmart, BP gas station. Those were only like two or three thousand dollars each. I got some scholarships from the Delta Sigma Theta sorority and the Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. Those were like about $5,000 each. And then I also got a scholarship from the Boys and Girls Club, which I was a part of. And that was $5,000 each year. And then I was an RA when I was in college. So that covered my room and board for the second two years I was there. I also graduated college in three years. And so, yeah, everything was, you know, when you when you added it all up, it covered, you know, most of my tuition. And then there were certain like portions where I had to pay. But I just, it was like a couple thousand dollars, maybe a year or something I had to pay. And I worked full time. So I just paid them the money. So I ended up graduating with no debt.

Man, you are the student. My parents wish they had. I wanted to go back and just touch on one other thing, though. Mindy went back and touched on the stack of applications and rewriting the essay. But I think there was another piece there that's just equally as important was the fact that you had people willing to write letters of recommendation. And I think there's like, that speaks volumes, right? Because all the work ethic in the world, if you're not a person that people want to recommend is, It's like people make mistakes in high school.

I made mistakes in high school. But being a person that is clearly successful enough that people are willing to put their name on the line to recommend you for scholarships, too, is huge. And college in three years, too? Of course. I don't know what to, I don't know what questions to ask there other than where did that go wrong. Yeah. I mean, so I think that's a good, you know, point. like basically why did I do that? And so I actually did some research my first year and I realized

that a course overload, meaning like, maxing out the amount of credits that you can take per year, taking more of them, was cheaper than it would be to do a fourth year. Because some of my scholarships were renewable each year and some of them were not. So I knew that if I could get all my credits done in three years, I'd actually be saving like $20,000. of my education. So, and especially since I was an RA and I wasn't paying room and board, you know, you have to get hired every year. You don't know if you're going to get hired as an RA the next year. And so I wanted to maximize, you know, how much money I was getting. And I wanted to maximize the time. And, you know, I say this, I've said this before, you know, college is a

business. And so you have to treat it as such. And so when I realized that doing three years of college was way cheaper than doing four years of college, I did it. You know, summers, I went to community college, and then I reverse transferred those credits back to my main college. And then I, I overloaded each semester. I think I took like 25 credits each semester or something crazy. And then winter breaks, I took winter session classes. And I just maxed it all out until I was done.

And again, it saved me like thousands of dollars. Wow. Yeah. We need to celebrate Amber and her work ethic. I also. I feel so lazy right now. I owe you. I don't want to say I owe you an apology, but last week when Mindy and I were prepping this to record,

you know, before I messed up us recording last week, I assumed because you were military that the topic we were going to have was how the military is a great way to pay for college. My assumption was that, oh, well, of course, that's a great way to get. No, no, no, no. You didn't join the military and get them to pay for college. You crushed it in high school with scholarships and in college and joined the military as an afterthought. And I mean, that's, well, I think that's incredible because I tell people all the time, like, no, the military is a great way to pay for school. But it's not the only way.

And you were like proof is in the pudding. I mean, that's phenomenal. So I guess I would ask, what do you think is like the one piece of advice in the scholarship realm that? that you think people should hear, right? Like, if you're a parent and you're telling your kid, like, how in the world, I don't know how you get a, like, my son to understand scholarships. What do you think is like the most important thing to know about that from a, maybe from a parent standpoint or from a student's standpoint?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of things. I think one is, you know, the student has to understand what their life might be like with loans after, after they graduate college. You know, I took a really big risk. I went to art school for undergrad. I said I was a journalism major. I actually wanted to do TV news. And so I went to art school.

And so I knew that by going to art school, I probably was limiting myself on how much money I could realistically make with an art school degree. And so knowing that up front, knowing that I had grown up in poverty, cash straps, you know, we, you know, I grew up on welfare, you know, going to food pantries. Like, I didn't want that to be. be my life. And what I realized around me was that a lot of people had a lot of debt. And so I wanted to prevent that at all costs. And so like I think that explaining that to someone who is a student, assuming that they're mature enough to understand that, it really is a

great motivating factor. And then on the scholarship front, you know, you mentioned like I got letters of recommendation. Like I was in clubs in high school. You know, I was on the snowball operations, which was a group for students who didn't drink alcohol or engage in drug activity. And, you know, I would go to retreats and I would meet people and I was there around mentors and I was a camp counselor for several years. And so that's where I built the relationships where those people were able to write me a letter of recommendation and also added to my resume. And so again, like a lot of this is strategic.

A lot of this is figuring out a way. to, you know, increase your chances of success. You, I want to circle back for a second. You said, well, some of my scholarships were only two or three thousand dollars. And I, I didn't fill out scholarships. When I was little, my mom and dad bought me a savings bond with every paycheck that my dad had. So I had a literal stack that I had to sign when I was in second grade, which was a terrible experience.

But I had a literal stack of savings bonds. And that was back, I'm real old, that was back when they just kept growing. Now they'll stop and they'll cap at a certain amount. But they could continue to grow forever. So I had this huge stack of savings bonds. My parents locked it in at, this is going to sound insane in 2021, but they looked. locked it into a CD for five or 10 years, maybe 10 years because I was in second grade at 14 percent interest.

So that grew because that was the, David, let me introduce you to this time called the late 70s, early 80s when interest rates were through the roof. They did, the bank did not offer to renew that when they finally came due. Of course. The CD was, he was like, hey, I could do it at one. No. So I didn't apply for scholarships, but all that I have gathered from people that I've spoken to is that it doesn't, and I'm not trying to diminish anything, but it doesn't take that long to apply for one scholarship. So let's say you take an hour or two hours to apply for a scholarship. I'm trying to change the way that people think about applying for scholarships. Oh, this is only $2,000. Well, if it takes you an hour and you get it, you just made $2,000 in one hour, which is not my current rate of payment. That's amazing. You made $2,000. And if you don't get it, it only cost you an hour. Like, you're a kid, unless you're Amber, who's probably got 57 classes that

she's got to go to. What else do you have to do? And I'm not trying to belittle anybody. I'm trying to reframe the mindset. Like, you could make a lot of money. You could win or earn a lot of money putting in a fairly low amount of time and the amount of money that you're making is just enormous. I read an article several years ago about a woman similar to you. Her mother sat her down freshman year and said,

hey, if you want to go to college, you're going to have to find a way to pay for it. I don't have any money. And she's like, okay, I guess that's my job now is to find money for college. So she applied to everything she could find and she was able, I mean, I'm listening to your story. I'm like, ooh,

was her name Amber? Because she got all of her school paid for too. That's a great. But that's not what your story ends. I was just going to say that's a great perspective shift because it makes you think that theoretically as a junior senior senior in high school, the most valuable job you could possibly have is applying for scholarships. Yes.

And I also worked part-time. I also worked a job in high school too. She probably founded some Fortune 500 company as a sophomore. Yeah. I wish. way worse about my high school years. I wish. It was Fortune thousand.

Okay. So yeah, but wait, there's more. Amber didn't finish with just a four-year degree from college. What else happened to Amber? Three years. She didn't finish a four-year degree in three years. She did more. Of course she did more.

I did. So I took a year off where I worked. And then, you know, back, this was back in two, The market was really tough for journalists. It was very difficult to get a TV news job. I had a host of issues with interviewing. And it just, at the end of the day, I realized that, like, I couldn't do it. You know, most of the jobs I was applying for for TV news anchors were like all over the country.

I had to fly in and out for interviews. I just didn't have the funds, frankly. Like, my family was still, you know, poor. And so I realized, like, I had to do something else. Like, the jobs that, you know, the news anchor jobs were. paying like at the time $15,000 a year. And I knew that like long term, that was never going to work. And so I was thinking, what can I do that I would really be good at, that I would enjoy, but that also I could like, you know, solidify like my financial security, frankly. And so I randomly woke up one morning

and decided to go to law school. And a few months later, I just got some books from the library studied for the law school admission test. A few months later, I took the law school admission test and applied to law school. I got into one of the top 25 law schools in the country at the time. And a few months later, I went off to the University of Illinois to start law school. Did you finish law school in three years? Law school is three years. So, yeah, okay. Oh, so you did it in like a minute and a half? She did it in two years. It took the whole three years. Wow. So three years high school. Well, yeah. I mean, I, you know, I had the good thing is like, you know, in college, I had a 3.7 GPA, you know, so I had done well in college, even though I didn't even

know I was going to grad school. So frankly, I could have just coasted through those classes, but, you know, I had got a 3.7 GPA. You know, I did okay on the law school admission test. And since I had worked during that year that I took off for kind of like an investigative agency at the time, you know, I had a really good like law school application. And so that's how I was able to it in. So you graduated high school in three years. You graduated college in three years. You graduated law school in three years. Just really a theme. I knew it was it was three years. But still, like, that's amazing. What was your financial position graduating law school? Right. So I actually obviously applied to scholarships going to law school. Unfortunately, like the scholarships

going to law school are a lot more difficult. There's not as many scholarships going to law school as is going to undergrad. However, I did get a pretty significant scholarship of my law school. I got $25,000 a year from the law school directly. So that made tuition $10,000 a year. And then, of course, I still have to pay for all of my books, my living expenses, all that stuff, which was actually quite expensive. But then I had applied for some other scholarships, and I got those. And so I ended up graduating law school with about $60,000 of debt. which is actually significantly lower than than typical lawyers. Like typically at the point where you're graduating law school,

most of the people I knew had over $100,000 of debt, like just from law school, not counting debt from college. So I was really happy about that. And then there's a lot of, there's a lot of loan forgiveness programs out there because I do public service. My loans will be forgiven in three years. So out of law school, I had about $60,000 to $2,000 of debt.

And I had maybe like $500 in savings. Can we extrapolate? We hit the three year, three year, three year. How old were you when you finished law school? When I finished law school. I know there was a gap, but. I was, I think I was 23 or 24 when I graduated law school. Because I graduated college at 19.

Like when I walked across the stage, I was 19 when I had my bachelor's. I took a year off and I started law school. at 21. So, yeah. Yeah. So with a year off, you're graduating law school, maybe one year, maybe a year and a half after most people get their undergrad and with less debt than most people come out of undergrad with. That's impressive. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I was 24 when I, when I finished law school. So where did you go to work? You mentioned the public service forgiveness program. That's not just for any attorney. That's, yeah. That's for, public service attorneys. What is your, what is your job? Any, any attorney that works in government or

non-for-profit, but I started working at the attorney general's office in Illinois. That was my first job out of law school. And so I worked there for a few years. But yeah, that was my first job. So I've worked in public service government my, my entire career. So did you do any sort of weighing of the benefits of them paying off your loans versus going into a bigger law firm and making the crazy money with also the crazy hours that come with it? So, you know, I really was more interested just naturally in government service. Law school is very competitive. It's also very elitist.

I graduate law school with a 3.1 GPA, which I think a lot of people would say is like very low for like the school I went to because it was a top 25 school in the country. And so a lot of people who got those like big law jobs were getting like 3.5. GPAs and above. And so like it really was, it would have been quite difficult for me to apply for those firms and actually get them. Certainly now I could do that. But back then, it would have been really difficult for me to frankly just even get a job in that field. And so I realized that like, I had to get the best job I could on the government side in order for it to make sense. Because there's a lot of people who went into private practice that went to smaller law firms,

but the smaller law firms, that's not really where the money is. And so I knew that like strategically, I would have had to go work in government in order to get those loans paid off. Okay. Hey, these get degrees. So do Cs and so do D's. They do. Yeah. I did not graduate law school with a 3.1.

You're already so far ahead of me in every single way and I'm older than you. So your whole story is very impressive. I really love that you thought strategically about this. And yeah, you graduated with some debt. But like you said, that's less than a lot of people have just from law school. And that was basically your whole entire load because you graduated high school, no debt. You graduated. And then you just have this.

And then it's paid off in. Did you say in three years yours will be paid off or it's a three year payoff program? It's a 10 year payoff program. I've been practicing for seven years now. So I have three more years left. Okay. And then are all 100% of your? your 62,000 wiped out?

Or is there some sort of, do you have to make payments while you're doing this? I do, yes. You do have to make minimum payments the whole time. But luckily, due to the coronavirus, there have been no payments for a while, a couple of years. So, and then your first year, you pay zero because your income taxes from the year prior are very low slash non-existing because you were in school. So it's very work. It's very lucrative to try to get the payoff if you can.

Okay. So what's next for Amber besides conquering the world? Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, me and Brenda, Brenda was on the podcast before, you know, we have our own podcasts on money. So I've actually built my network up quite a bit, you know, since I graduated law school. And so I really wanted to do, you know, get some, first of all, I really wanted to get the information out there. one, how to graduate college while incurring a little bit of debt, but also, like, what are the money tips that I can give to people who maybe grew up in poverty, who they do

start making money, you know, as a lawyer or as whatever career that they have chosen? And, like, what do you do with it at that point? You know, a few years in my career, I had, like, significant amounts of money. And I was like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I have no idea. Like, I've always been sort of struggling. I've always been, you know, trying to make ends meet. And so like, what do I do that I have like this load of cash? And so I, you know, obviously I did a bunch of research and all that. And now I'm at the point where I have, you know, a more significant network. And so, you know, me and Brenda started the podcast and I have several books out, you know, telling people how to do it. Well, how do you do it? What was it you invested in? Let's look into what you're telling people. Yeah. So, I mean, there's a couple of things. Like, first of all, you know, I I think everybody knows about, you know, lowering your tax implications, 401Ks, IRAs, all of that

stuff. But beyond that, like, just investing in the market. And I think that, you know, where I grew up, you know, investing, first of all, it's unheard of. But second of all, it's people look at it as gambling or they look at it as like a very scary, like you're going to put your money in and you're not going to be able to get it out. And so I invested significant amounts of money. And, you know, in my free time, I'm also in the Army, which I, just actually joined the Army only three and a half years ago. But like my entire military salary, I put in my Army 401k. Like, I don't even spend it. And then, you know, from my main job, I invest $750 every two weeks. I've been doing that for years. And then, you know, whenever I have

extra money or whatever, like, I'll put it into the market. And, you know, so all of my retirement account, so at this point, like, I'm set to graduate, or graduate, I'm set to retire at 50. And so, yeah, that's basically the advice. It's like, don't spend your money, invest it. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening.

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Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. So you said something that I thought was very interesting. You said, I think everyone knows to lower your tax implications with 401k and IRA. And no, they don't, which is why we need you telling them how to do this in the book. You also said that people, where you come from, people think that, in. investing is gambling or that it's scary. How do you, this is a huge one because it's not, like I think anybody who doesn't know about investing automatically assumes that it's a gamble and you could lose your money.

And yes, you could lose your money. Past performance is not indicative of a future game. Let's get all those legal phrases out there. But also, you can have, it gives you a huge opportunity to grow your wealth. So how do you overcome that it's a gamble? or it's scary argument. Like, what is your answer when somebody says, I don't know how to do this or I'm not going to do this because of this?

Yeah, I mean, I think you can just look at like history. I mean, just everybody who has any money has invested into the market. So obviously, it can't be that much of a gamble. And I think that like a lot of people want to pick out like specific. I'm one of those people that I have everything automated. So I have a brokerage account and it's auto invested into whatever the portfolio. it is that I chose, which is an aggressive portfolio at this point, it automatically purchases ETFs for me based on my level of, you know, choice about aggressiveness. And, you know,

you can literally Google, like, what is the average stock market return? It's 10%. So on average, you're going to get 10% back of your money. I mean, think about it. If you put money into a savings account, right? Like most savings accounts are like 0.001% that you're getting back. So if you feel you want to put money in a savings account, why wouldn't you just invest in the market? When you know, like literally Google says the average stock market return is 10%. It's a no-brainer. You know what I mean? I think that a lot of it is ignorance, unfortunately.

A lot of it is that people lack knowledge and they don't know anybody who's doing it. And they're, you know, focused on like get rich quick schemes, I think. When you don't have a lot of money, you want money to multiply really fast. But it really is about the long game. And, you know, it's really important. that you are investing for the future and you see the money grow over time. Even like I've seen the money grow since I started practicing lawns, started investing. And you're saying all the right things.

I love it. One of the things that always kind of makes me chuckle inside is the same people in my experience, the same people who bring up the investing is gambling. They're not the people who have like seven figures in a savings account because they're scared to gamble and they just leave it there because it's safe. they're the people who have like no money in their bank account because they would rather go and buy an Xbox and a new phone and a new car and new shoes. And a guaranteed loss of money doesn't bother them, but a potential law. The psychology is just weird to me.

So I always like to kind of frame that when I'm talking to someone, I'm like, just to clarify, $200 on what could go to $400 is risky, but $200 on a pair of sneakers you're going to walk in the mud in. Totally cool. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good point. I mean, most people, like when I go back to my own neighborhood, all I see is like luxury vehicles and things of that nature. And there's obviously a lot of psychological reasons why people do that stuff when they're in poverty. And, you know, so like I'm very sympathetic to those reasons. But, I mean, I shop at Target. Like, I buy things from Costco in bulk.

Like, I am very frugal for the most part. I mean, of course, there's things that I like to do, like travel, which I spend money on or whatever. But other than that, I mean, like, I'm. I'm a pretty frugal person. And so, you know, I think it's, I think it's difficult for people to see the future impact of their money decisions because everything to a lot of people is about the now. Like, what can I indulge in right now? And I really have never felt that way just in my whole life.

Like, I will still eat canned ravioli. Like, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like I'm not really interested in like, you know, super luxurious things. now, of course, every now and then, absolutely, stay at a nice hotel or whatever. But for the most part, like, I would rather, I would much rather retire at 50. Like, I'm exhausted. I've been in the workforce, you know, since I've been doing this stuff, like you guys said, since I was 12 and I'm 31. And so, you know, the longevity of this is going to end soon.

So you said you're investing in ETS. You have it automated. Are you investing in any individual stocks or are you investing mainly in the funds and the index funds? So I actually, so I have a brokerage account with Merrill Lynch and it's managed. So there's a person that manages it for me, but I really don't believe in individual stocks at all. Like I just, I think it's way better to invest it in just, I think it's way better to just invest it in like the ETS and the index funds. I did have some mutual funds, which I actually just recently sold.

but it just makes more sense, I think, than individual stocks, because I think those are more risky because you don't know where Apple is going to be in 20 years. You don't know, you know, we all love Starbucks and Apple, and that's great. And, you know, I'm sure if you put money in it, maybe you'll get a return. But I would rather go with the guaranteed sort of way to make money on stocks, like investing in oil and communications. And I don't even think people realize that you could do that. like you like I have ETS that literally say like oil like communications like that's really

interesting and you just I absolutely love this you just educated yourself you did the research I mean clearly you love to study yes I'm a frequent Reddit user like I'm on like multiple Reddit forums like on my phone on my computer like I'm just like always surfing the interwebs and it's funny because I get all these texts from people who text me like how do I do this what do I do this. Like, how do I go to college? Like, how did you, how did you pay this? And I'm just like, literally all I did was Google. I mean, and actually, I tell this story all the time, but like when I was growing up, you know, before Google existed, before even dial up, internet existed, we used to get Encyclopedia Britannica CDROMs in the mail. And we had a computer

and I would literally sit there and read the encyclopedia of like what things were. And I just always researched, like, what does it mean to go to college? What does it? I mean to get an undergraduate degree. How was the undergraduate degree different than a graduate degree? Like, I was like eight. Like, I was like just reading the encyclopedia because I was like, it's something to do. And that's literally all you have to do now. It's even easier. You literally type things into a search engine and it spits out an answer in second. So I just don't understand why people don't utilize it. You're speaking my love language now. I had when I was a recruiter, and I've been notorious for this for a long time.

But I was notorious for people would ask a question and I would just say, Google knows because it's like, look, I might be able to give you the answer and that's great. But if I give you the answer and you learn that you can just come to me about every question you possibly have, then when I'm not here, you're going to not be able to function until I come back around. If you learn how to find the answers yourself online or wherever, like knowing where to find an answer, I think is ultimately more important than knowing the answer. Oh, yeah. I agree. And like, I'm sure since we've been recording this, I can go back to my phone and I have like multiple Facebook messages and text messages from people like, I don't know what to do. Can you review my resume? Can you apply for the job? Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do this? So I've actually had to like limit it and like set some boundaries lately of like, all right, like I can't do this. But I mean, that's why I wrote my book series.

Like I have five books that I've published. Three of them are about undergrad. One of them is about law school. And one of them is about becoming a millionaire. And literally, I like map out like what to do. And like in most of the chapters, I'm like Google scholarships. Like that is the answer. Like that is the answer. You know, obviously it says a lot more than that. But you know, some of it does come down to like doing your own research. Man. And the crazy thing about this, right? We talked about the crazy that you did everything in three years, crazy that you got all these scholarships. Like all of these things that compounded, but like the compound effect is huge. And it's so crucial here because.

if you were still paying undergrad and law school student loans and you were living under a two or 300,000 or $300,000 student loan bubble, like a lot of people end up doing, you would not be able to put $1,500 a month into an index fund. You'd be paying down debt. And so it would take longer to hockey stick into retirement. And so I think it's like people underestimate how important it is to find a way to pay for college because coming out of school debt free just means that you can every dollar saved at like 18 19 20 years old is worth you know two three four 10 dollars saved down the road and so it's like

man just getting that debt out of the way and being able to save at an early age is i would rather like be i don't want to say homeless but be like you know just be able to save like 10 000 at 18 then be able to put $40,000 in when I'm 40 or 50 years old. And I think that's like you just set yourself up so well to be able to say, hey, I don't have this massive debt. I'm also young. And now I've done my research. I'm taking the emotion out of it.

And I'm just dollar cost averaging into these funds for the long haul. Oh, that's cool. I agree. I mean, like my, like I said, my loan payments are like, you know, a couple hundred dollars a month. And so I'm able to do $750. every two weeks. I'm able to invest my entire military salary into my 401k, and I max out my IRA every year, $6,000. And, you know, I also contribute to the pension at my job, which is like 8.5%. And so, like, I have, like, by the time I retire, even at 50, like, I'm looking at like $10 million

at that point. You know, it's... Yeah. For someone who grew up poor, for. Yeah, for someone who, like, I don't have any, like, advantages, like, my uncle's not Barack Obama, although I joke about that on Twitter that it is. You know, like, I knew nobody. Like, no one was helping me or telling me any of this information. I didn't even know anybody with a bachelor's degree when I was growing up. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know any information. And, like, I think a lot of people sometimes they assume, like, oh, you're black, you know, like, you obviously, like, got scholarships, you know, whatever. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I would. that I could walk in and be like, hey, I'm black. Can I get this for free? Because that would have been a lot easier than like what I did. But I was going to say, I didn't know that's how that worked. I wish. Believe me. I'm really, truly wish. I'm left-handed. Hopefully I can. Mindy, are you okay if I nerd out on military speak for 60 seconds here? Yes, go nuts with all of your acronyms. Well, I'm just curious, Amber. You mentioned military 401K. Are you investing in the Thrift savings plan or do you take your military money? So you have like a civilian Roth IRA and

an ETFs and everything and then your TSP as well? Correct. Yes. Cool. I love that. I'm a huge fan of the Thrift Savings Plan and especially now with the blended retirement system. Yes. Oh no, go ahead. I said continue on. Oh. I was my next question, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I'm just curious if you've taken advantage of your VA loan yet. The home loan. So a funny story, I actually bought a house and when I was 25 years of. ago. And it actually was like horrible. Like it actually, I probably would have more money right now if I didn't buy that house. It was a terrible experience. Pretty much I bought it. It was really cheap. I was living in Springfield, Illinois at the time. It was like $117,000. My mortgage was like

$500 a month. But as soon as I bought it, literally everything broke. Like I needed a new furnace. I needed all. I needed the house reinstated. I needed all this stuff. And then I ended up getting a job in Chicago and moving, and then I rented it out. And I had issues with my tenants. They kept moving out. And it ended up being a nightmare. It ended up actually draining a lot of my money when I first became an attorney. So I haven't used the VA home loan yet, although I have it. Because I think homeownership, at least in my experience, was one of the ways that, like, actually distracted from me building wealth. Interesting. Well, that backfired on me. I love the VA loan. I'm sorry. But I think you're You're absolutely right that in, but I mean, I'm on, I'm on the same fence, though, where I think

a primary residence is not always the best investment that people think it is, right? So I think there's a way to do it and a way not to. And I've had the way not to have it happen as well. So, yeah, that's a, it can be a hard lesson to learn. Yeah, I really like renting, you know, the, like, I have no costs. You know what I mean? Like, if something breaks, I call maintenance, they come fix it. I don't have to do anything.

Yeah. I'm already too busy. I can't. I can't. Yeah, there's absolutely a time and a place for both. I'm wondering if we can't place a little bit or a lot of blame on your agent in Springfield because it doesn't sound like you had somebody looking out for your best interest. Did you have a home inspection when you bought the house?

I did. And everything came back okay. But I think that like, I don't know why the furnace blew within the first few years of me. owning the house. I have no idea if that was something that was missed in the home inspection. I've never really thought about it before. Actually, it was sort of an old house, but it was renovated. And so it looks really new and updated. And so as a 25-year-old with no knowledge of anything, I was just like, this house is awesome. It's $500. You know, I'm from Chicago. So moving in Springfield, Illinois, and I had a huge two-bed, two-bath house. I was in love with it. And so it

probably was a lot to do with just me, just not really knowing a lot of anything about houses or anything like that. And so that could have played a part. Yeah, the newly renovated houses can be a disaster sometimes because, you know, the person doing the flipping might not know what they're doing or they hire a contractor who cuts a corner. I flip houses, but I'm perfect. So it's always a great experience for my buyer. I don't flip houses anymore because I'm not perfect.

I can give me lessons. Amber could give you lessons too. You can learn so much from both of us, David. I'm a huge advocate of the VA loan and real estate for sure. But I will tell there's a time and a place for renting. There's a time and a place for buying. And there's definitely a larger learning curve for buying a house than there is for buying an index fund. And so it really all, it kind of comes down to the old like, I love making money.

everybody does, but how much time and how much effort is it going to take to make that dollar? And index funds is about as passive as you get. I agree. And it just grows. You don't have to do anything. And it's great. And my net worth is boomed. While you're sleeping, while you're waking, it's wonderful.

Amber, this has been a lot of fun. I love your story. I love that you just have this, like, insatiable drive to do more. And I'm wondering if you're. numbers are going to continue to grow in such a way that age 50 might be too far. You're 31 now. We have talked to a lot of people on this show. And even starting from a place of negative net worth have gotten to a place of retirement

within 10 years. And yes, we've had this huge back. It's a tailwind on the stock market right now. But I'm wondering if 36, 38, 40, you're going to start looking at your balance and being like, oh, it's that big now, huh? Maybe I can step back or maybe I can go part time or maybe I can, you know, only do the parts of my job that I love. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can certainly, I could certainly swing retirement at 40.

I'm interested in fat fire, though. And so I want to have like, I think my projected right now is 100,000 every year. or no, 150,000 or something like that every year starting at 50 until I die. And so the reason being is like I like to take cool trips and like, you know, I want to, you know, still have a house cleaner that comes and still have a lot of those other luxury things. And like maybe I might change my mind at 40, frankly. If I'm depending on how tired I am, I might be like, I don't even want to go to Europe anymore. So I'm fine with the U.S.

But yes, I certainly could retire a lot early. I just want sort of a larger sum of money on the back end. And so that's why 50 is the absolute latest that I would retire, but I could retire a lot earlier. Can you get a part-time job at a big law firm? I could. I could. Do that on the weekend?

I could. Yeah, crank out the money with your steady paycheck during the week. What are you shaking your head for, David? You could also probably write some books. Write more books. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like she's already got herself some side income. I'm just trying to do the math in my head. You know, I mean, if 750 every two weeks, like probably roughly 20 grand a year that you're putting in over time, compound.

Like, I don't know that I can extrapolate the exponential curve in my head. I'm not quite that good at math. But, yeah, 50, you'll be good by 50 for sure. But yeah, I mean, it sounds like you've already, I mean, you've already got books and a podcast. Sounds like you've already found the little bit of side income, side hustle stuff. I would imagine you're doing it, but how much of that is getting added to index funds? Are you reinvesting all of that? Or what are you doing with the money?

Yeah. So, I mean, so I do 20K just off the top of my own salary. Then 20K I get from the Army every year that goes into TSP. Plus all of the money I make from royalties immediately just goes into my brokerage account. Frankly, I don't even know how much that is because I don't even really check it. but it goes straight to my brokerage account. And then I'm also going to get a pension because I'm a government employee. And so that will also come into play in my 60s or whenever I get the pension.

And so those three avenues will be. And then I'll get an Army retirement check when I hit 20 years as well. So yes, I can probably retire tomorrow. No, I can't retire tomorrow. I was going to say you can retire tomorrow. Very well set up for the future. And I love it. And I love that you're reinvesting the royalties.

Yes, yes. I mean, I usually honestly have a lot of money left over at the end of the year. Because like I said, I don't really, I don't really buy any like expensive things. And really, you know, I have my budgeted things that I go to, you know, my spa time or whatever.

But that's not really that expensive. Considering how much I make, you know, I'm making six figures at my job and all the other money that comes in. So I hope you are layering all of this with credit card rewards. So you can start earning your hotel stays. As long as you're using the credit card and contributing to the rewards programs, those rewards don't go away.

So you can be saving up your high at rewards accounts. And then when you retire, you have 4,000 stays. So then you can go and then your travel is less expensive. Yeah. I have the AMAX platinum card, and so I'm a Marriott Bonvoy member and Hilton Honors member. And actually, I do a lot of Hotwire. Hotwire is awesome. You can get really cheap stuff on Hot Wire.

But yes, I am also somewhat of a travel hacker, not really, but somewhat. Yeah, that would be an interesting research opportunity for you when you have some downtime from saving the world and working seven jobs. but the travel hacking is like I have the Hyatt credit card. So every time I go to the grocery store, the gas station, I swipe on my credit card and I'm earning stays. I don't remember what the math is, but I earn a stay based on my regular. I was going to buy groceries anyway. Now I bought groceries and I got a free hotel night out of it or, you know, 3,000 points towards a free hotel night.

So that's another way you can just go your go to the spa and earn a hotel stay. Oh, at the same time. That's a great idea, yeah. Yeah, you're maxing out your money and then find a hotel or two that you like. It sounds like you've got those already. Find a couple of airlines that you like or one airline that you know is going to be great. And just start taking advantage of those opportunities now. And then you next year you don't even have to pay for your travel.

You can just fly free on points. And we're, David and I are at, we're in Austin, Texas at a conference called FinCon. And everybody here is like the most optimized to get all the money out, like squeeze everything out of their dollar. And it's exciting to be around people like this. But now my mind is like, ooh, you can do all of these things too. Of course, on your time frame. Yes. You can start earning these rewards more.

I love, though, that you're clearly very frugal, more so than me. My wife is the frugal one. She balances me out because I definitely like expensive toys or hobbies every now and then. But I would say, like you mentioned it subtly, like the, you know, except for the budgeted things like the spa. I have found that some of my best ROIs are things like massage or like rent a jet ski or some of these things that people don't splurge on when they're being really frugal because it's so easy to just. be so thrifty that you don't let yourself, like, have fun. And then you get, like, so burnt out that it blows up in your face and you just, like, do nothing from, like, weeks.

So I love that you are like, I budget for this because I would imagine that the time where you're able to just, like, be, like, almost meditative in, like, a spa and, like, relax and just decompress is probably almost as high in ROI as everything else you're doing. Oh, yeah. I love that. I mean, I can't, I mean, like, this past weekend I had the Army. I worked every day last week. I had the Army over the weekend and now I'm finishing up this week.

So I've worked 12 days in a row. Like I have a spa day on Sunday and it's like I have to. I have to go to the spa. I have to get that 80 minute massage. Like there's no way I can keep going doing all of this, managing everything that I manage without having time to myself. And I'm a natural introvert anyway. So, you know, I, you know, get energy from thinking, being on my own.

going to doing meditative activities. And so, yeah, absolutely. I have to have a spa. I have a person that comes to clean my apartment every month. And just like little self-care things that I try to do to make sure that I'm okay. Because if I'm not okay, then like all of this fails. All of it fails anyway. Well, and also, this is something that you can afford.

You're not paying bills late so you can go to the spa. I think it's really important to have. have things that you enjoy doing, things that help you relax and decompress. But also, these things have to fit well within your budget, which they clearly do. You're already doing $1,500 a month to your investments, in addition to a bunch of other stuff into investments. Of course, you want to keep yourself in tip-top conditions so you can continue this. I don't want to call it a slog, but it's kind of a slog.

You want to be able to continue that so you don't burn out. Because yeah, burnout's real and burnout really hits hard. And it almost seems like, you know, the 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 90 minutes that you could have taken to decompress are exponentially more that you need to recover from when you burn out. Definitely. Definitely. Okay. Well, Amber, this has been super, super fun, but we're not quite done yet. We still have to get to our famous four.

Are you ready? Yeah, I am. Okay. Amber, what is your favorite finance book? I'd have to say the one I wrote. Money moves the road to millionaire status. Definitely is my favorite finance book. Actually, I wrote it last year while on deployment.

And I was really excited to publish it. And it is basically how anybody can become a millionaire, just based on putting money into your retirement and max out your IRAs. And so, yeah, that's my favorite book. Love it. What was your biggest money mistake? I would say buying my house, definitely. I would definitely say that.

I spent more on the house. I spent more on the house. And I was not able to build wealth for like two years because I was dealing with all those expenses that came with the house. And when I started renting, you know, I was able to like jump with wealth. So that was my mistake. There's a time and a place to be a homeowner. That hurts me to hear. And it is, you know, this is the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

We talk about real estate a lot, but there's also a time. It's like it's okay to rent. Scott is the CEO of Bigger Pockets and he rents right now. You don't have to own a house. If you don't want to own a house, don't own a house. If you don't want to own rental property, don't own rental property. And somebody asked this the other day, it's okay to be a renter and own rental properties that somebody else lives in. You don't have to own your own home to,

there's personal finance is personal. And however you work it out, as long as it works for you, it's the only person that has to work for. I agree. Okay. Amber, what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? I would say that when you're just starting out, I think a lot of people, again, like want those get rich quick schemes. And so a lot of people will invest the money frivolously or give it to people on Twitter who claim to like double their money or start a business or something like that. And I think that like when you first start building wealth, you should do that, start building it. You should max out your tax advantaged accounts. You should put money into a brokerage. You should do all the traditional things before you start that

business or buy a house or give money to someone on Twitter. All right. So the next question is, is what your favorite joke to tell at parties? Okay. So I felt long and hard about this, actually. And Mindy probably knows like I'm a fanatic of Twitter. And so this is the joke. A man goes to the doctor and he says, Doc, help me.

I'm addicted to Twitter. And the doctor replies, sorry I don't follow. I love a good one. That was good. I don't love a good. good pud, but that was good. That was a good joke.

Okay, Amber, where can people find out more about you? Sure. So you can visit my link tree. So that's link, L-I-N-K-T-R-E, backslash, money moves author. I'm also on Twitter is at Money Moves Off A-E-T-H, and people can view me. And then Minority Millennial Money is our podcast, and I'm on with Brenda, who also was on Bigger Money Pockets a while ago a few months ago. And so you can find our Instagram at MMMM Money Pod.

Okay, Brenda was on episode 195 of the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. And we will include a link to all of Amber's links in our show notes, which can be found at biggerpockets.com slash Money Show 241. Okay, Amber, this was awesome. This was a delightful show. I am so glad we finally got around to recording it. We had some technical issues on several of our fronts, and we all got together, and this was wonderful.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm going to make my little one, my older one, listen to this show and do all of those scholarship tips. Those were fabulous. And I'm going to let you know how much money she gets for her scholarships when she's done. She's a freshman now, so she's got some time. But I got to start thinking about it.

Please do. This is awesome. And thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Okay, David, that was Amber Porter from Minority, Millennial Money Podcast. I am blown away by her amazingness. What did you think of her story? Well, you're right. I feel like a lazy bum. I mean, she did, well, I mean, way more schooling

than I ever did and in way less time. And then, I mean, she just set herself up so well for the future. I love it. Everything she did, she did right. And she took it upon herself to do these things. I mean, who has this kind of work ethic when they're 12? Not Mindy Jensen. No. Frankly, I don't have that kind of work ethic now.

You were homeschooled? Oh, here we go. This is going to be the highlight of the show now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know how to talk to people, believe it or not. Okay, I thought you were making a joke when you said you were homeschooled. I didn't realize you were homeschooled. That's hilarious.

I don't know why. I shouldn't say that's hilarious. That sounds all but one semester. All but one semester. Oh, it always blows people away. Wow. I had no idea. And I've known you for a while, David.

Yes, she was. Yes, I'm sure. My brother was homeschooled from third grade on. So, yes, Amber is, her work ethic is astonishing. And then she decided to go be an attorney because why not? and then she still crushes life with all of her. Did you see she just casually mentions, oh, I happened to graduate from high school in three years instead of four. I've never heard of anybody doing that in my whole life until today.

I was today years old when I learned that was a possibility. That's amazing. It was so casual. Yeah, she did high school, college, and law school in three years. And I know law school is already three years, but that's still like she did all three. That's amazing. Yeah. She was, what, 23, she said when she graduated law school and with less debt than people

have normally when they graduate undergrad. Awesome. Yeah, awesome. David, why don't you tell people where they can find out more about you? Ooh, the easiest way is to just Google military millionaire. Most of our community will pop up right there. We're on all the social platforms and have a website as well. And you are geared towards people, active duty military?

No, we help. Anybody enlisted? I don't know anything about the military. Okay, well, the 10-second elevator pitch is we help service members and veterans learn how to build wealth through real estate investing, entrepreneurship, personal finance, and using their VA loan. Oh, so you're kind of like bigger pockets money for the military. I will take that compliment, and I will not fight you on it. Awesome. Okay, David, should we get out of here? Absolutely. Thank you for stepping into Scott's shoes and doing a delightful job.

from episode 241 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is David Perrae from Military Millionaire. And I am Mindy Jensen, saying, in honor of David's pet raccoon, which he used to feed out of his beard. You can email him at Military to Millionaire at gmail.com for more information. Or see the picture in our show notes, which can be found at biggerpockets.com slash Money Show 241. We're saying, see you soon, Raccoon.