BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 273: Breaking Down Barriers: From Homelessness to Renowned Surgeon w/Dr. David L. Rhoiney

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

The poverty cycle is a hard one to break out of. For some people, it is near impossible to climb yourself out of the hole that society, family, or unfortunate circumstances have placed you in. But sometimes, through sheer willpower alone, those who break through can crush this cycle and bring their families up with them. Someone who’s done this (and much more), is Dr. David L. Rhoiney from surgiFI.  Dr. David is a renowned “robot surgeon”, operating on patients using the finest precision that modern technology has to offer. He holds two degrees, has two homes, and invests heavily. You’re probably assuming he was raised in a family that taught him the worth of hard work, education, and investing early. You wouldn’t be more wrong. Dr. David’s childhood consisted of a combination of living in cars, homeless shelters, sleeping on friend’s couches, and surviving completely on the edge. After being accepted into the US Naval Academy, he knew that he had to do everything he could to never return to that life. He has been told “no” thousands of times, that he wasn’t good enough, didn’t look the part, or simply that he wasn’t worth it. He proved every doubter wrong and has had the last laugh as he and his family now are on the path to a phenomenal financial future.  In This Episode We Cover Growing up and poverty and using it as fuel to strive for something greater  Why you should always choose the “hard path” and pursue something others would fear Medical student loans and going debt-free through intelligent financial decisions  House hacking and using rental properties to propel your net worth higher  Affordable housing and what real estate investors can do to help those in need Giving yourself no other choice but to succeed, even when all bets are against you  And So Much More! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 273, where we interview Surgify, Dr. David Roney, and talk about starting out with no privilege. Because one, I don't look like everyone else, I don't talk like everybody else, I don't walk like everyone else, and I have a different background. And I'm pretty competitive, right? So I got used to people telling me that you weren't going to do well, that you weren't going to make it. And so I learned how to fight back and I always ask the question, why not?

Why can't I do it? Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And joining me today as guest host is Doug Cunnington, host of the Mile High Five podcast. Doug, tell us a bit about your show. Carl, your husband and I talk about personal finance and other topics related to life after corporate jobs. And that goes into lifestyle topics, side hustles, some five topics. And we honestly go on a lot of tangent. So there's side conversations all over the place. And we're actually doing a lot more sort of long-form interviews with awesome people like yourself, Mindy. And some of them go on for over an hour. We've also talked to J.L. Collins, Alan and Katie Donigan. And we've

even recorded a live panel with Mr. Money Mustache, Alan, and Carl. Yeah, you're showing us a super fun list. And also sharing financial insights. I really like it. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for taking time out of your busy day of recording with Carl to record with me. Doug and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business, will help you reach your financial

goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams. Doug, today's guest is a Naval Academy graduate, a two-sport NCAA Division I athlete. He's an applied mathematician, a cryptologist, a cybersecurity specialist, and a robotic general surgeon all before the age of 35. Yeah, me too. With this kind of pedigree, you would assume that he had everything handed to him and you would not be more wrong. David Roney grew up financially insecure and for a period of time lived in a car with his mother and brother. He's now using his voice and his success to democratize financial literacy and information because he also truly believes financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or

where you're starting. Yeah, I'm super excited to hear David's story and just get the full rundown. Yeah, I really like his story. I really like the way that he is so easily tells it. He's had a lot of things thrown at him and his attitude of, I don't have any other. option but to succeed is not one that everybody shares. And I don't think that he pats himself on the back enough about that. I think he is amazing. And I cannot wait to bring him in to tell his story. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your

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I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals,

podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. David Roney from Surgify. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

I am so excited to talk to you today. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited. I'm a big fan of Bigger Pockets. Oh, thank you. David Roney is a robot surgeon. So you do surgery on robots? Oh, no.

It's more like I use a robotic platform. You know, it's a great opening and sort of icebreaker because that's immediately what people say like, oh, you're a robot surgeon. Do you like operate on robots? I use the intuitive Da Vinci platform to do surgery in a minimally invasive way with smaller incisions, better precision, better vision, right, in order to give patients a better outcome. I should be a freaking rep for intuitive talking like that, right? You should be. Pay me. Affiliate money.

Reach out and I'll connect you, intuitive. There you go. Okay, so let's start off with your money journey. Where do you consider your journey with money to begin? So I'm different than a lot of people. My money journey starts off from trauma, right? So, like, I grew up, and the first money memory, you can say, is really of my mom bouncing checks in order for us to eat. Right.

So I grew up super, super humble beginnings, including having to live in a car for a significant period of time with my brother and my mom and her abusive boyfriend. And we ate Burger King Whoppers for every meal when they were two for a dollar. We then went to a homeless shelter and I've always had a scarcity sort of mentality of a money where I've had to learn how to conserve and save and to survive, right? And so my money journey is still ongoing. I'm still healing from that trauma, but it's a traumatic one to start with. So when did things start to turn around? And obviously you have a very sort of impressive background if we look through your resume and that sort of thing.

So yeah, can you walk us through sort of the journey from the humble beginnings, as you mentioned, to maybe not where you are today, but maybe through, you know, through college or so to give us an idea how that journey went. Well, you know, it's like I say, this was not necessarily intentional on my part. it was a series of steps on just trying to survive. When you grow up in poverty, especially looking the way I look in the neighborhoods that I grew up in, you don't, you get counted out a lot, right? So like people didn't encourage me to go college.

I didn't even know I was smart to like really almost about 19 years ago. And I sort of just continued to just try and get to the next step, get to the next rung and a ladder. So when we left a homeless shelter, my mom who was, God rest her soul, bipolar, as well as a bad diabetic, she would go in and out of the hospital. So like we spent a lot of times, me and my brothers were random strangers living on their couch or living in random houses in order to just get by. Eventually, I started to grow a little bit and I came into my own as a basketball player and I started getting recruited and I managed to make it to the United States Naval Academy on an academic or athletic, whatever type of scholarship you want to call it, but I was a

recruited athlete to come play basketball there. That was a life-changing moment for me because the only reason why I went there is because they guaranteed me how much money I can make in four years when I was done, right? And so when they're talking, when you're telling a kid that is struggling just to buy closed, pay tuition for the private school I had to go to in order to even graduate high school on time, right, telling them that, hey, you know, I can give you this guarantee money. Anything looks good, right? My mom never made more than $24,000 in a single year in her entire life. And here I am. They're telling me, oh, yeah, you can make $42, $45,000 right out of college. I thought I was going to be rich. So that gave me a launch pad.

I had to sort of take care of my family. And that was the whole thing was I made my grandmother promise that I was going to take care of my mom and my brother. And so I just kept fighting towards that, fighting towards that inching a little bit further. Once I got to the academy, I started that blinders, right, because ignorance is bliss, right? I don't know anything outside of what's in front of me. So the blinders start to come off a little bit because, one, I don't look like everyone else. I don't talk like everybody else. I don't walk like everyone else.

and I have a different background, and I'm pretty competitive, right? So I got used to people telling me that you weren't going to do well, that you weren't going to make it. And so I learned how to fight back and I always ask the question, why not? Why can't I do it? Right. So I got to the academy and I started looking around because I validated some very hard courses. And then I got to take a class biology as a freshman, as a plebe. And I'm looking around.

There's like juniors and seniors in there. and the professor asked, well, what's everybody going to do with their life, right? And I'm sitting there looking around like, I don't know what I'm going to do in my life. I just want to eat, have some clothes on my back, be able to take care of my mom, yeah, I got it. And people are talking about I'm going to medical school. I'm going to dental school. I'm going here. And I'm looking around like, man, am I in the right place?

So afterwards, I went to an advisor was like, hey, you know, people are saying that's a class for doctors and dentists. I was like, can I be a doctor? And my professor was like, you absolutely can. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be a doctor, right? Again, people didn't believe that I could do it because people from my neighborhood don't become doctors, right? And so I just kept inching forward, incher forward, incher forward. But the whole time I had zero financial literacy, zero, right?

I was the poor black kid that was playing on a team with people where their parents can go to games, their parents can fly to these NCAA Division I games. And I'm trying to keep up with them. So I'm like racking up credit cards left and right. And eventually I had a coach that came up. So sorry about that. I had a coach that came up and who I looked at as like a father figure, a guy rest his soul as well.

He turned out to be an advisor for Primera. And he was like, hey, you know what? you're messing up your money. I used to listen to him. Anything he said, like, went. He's like, you're messing up your money. He put me on an allotment. So I was only living off of $50 a month at one point as a college student.

If you can imagine trying to take a girl on a date with $50 a month, and he locked up all my credit cards, too. I had, like, so many credit cards, low limits. Just very, very bad for you. Like, anytime you walked to the airport, I was signing up for a new credit card. And I rack up the debt. And so he set me up when I, allotment for a Roth IRA and then I started getting the statements like oh man I'm actually what's this

thing called compound interest and all this stuff and I'm a I was major math at the time I switched for chemistry so I'm like doing the formulas and stuff like that like oh yeah it's pretty cool like I'm making money so that I started putting more money in there and then when I graduated I had a pretty significant sum for somebody who basically started with nothing I had saved quite a bit and the financial crisis starts, right? This is around 2007, 2007, 2008. Financial crisis hits. And man, my money started tank. And I'm like, what is going on here? Like, this isn't supposed to happen. Like, it's supposed to go up, right? It's not supposed to go down. And so I called Primeraica was like, hey, you know, I just want to know why I can't put more money in because this thing said

it's closed. Like, what does that mean? And they're like, well, you should probably talk to your financial advisor. I was like, well, you know, my coach doesn't work for you guys anymore. And I was like, he was taking care of all of this. I didn't ask any questions. He just, he had my best interest in my. And then the customer service person or whoever was was just like, well, you need to get a financial advisor. I was like, well, can you guys assign me one? They told me I didn't warrant getting a financial advisor and it pissed me off again, right? And I was like, well, you know what? Fine. Tell me what do they read? And they told me to start with a prospectus. I started with the prospectus. And I'm reading through this thing. And it's all jargon field. And I realized I

I don't know enough. And so I'm having to look up all these words. So then that started this journey of me consuming all the knowledge that I could to read the same stuff as financial planners and financial advisors, investment advisors, so I can learn so I never have to worry about someone telling me that I'm not good enough anymore. So that started that fire in me to really make more, to do better. And then I never worried about whether or not I was going to make a lot of money because I figured if I always took care of people and I was living for service and taking care of others,

that God would always take care of me. And so that's the route that I took each time. Okay, lots to unpack there. First of all, that breaks my heart that nobody ever encouraged you. And you said, I didn't even know I was smart until nine or ten years ago. You're, what are you? Hold on. I got to get my notes. You are a mathematician, Cryptologist, Cybersecurity specialist robot surgeon. I'm sad that those things

don't tell you that you're smart. But again, when you are younger and nobody is encouraging you and you're not hearing people say, yes, you're smart. Of course you're smart. Look at how smart you are all the time. It can be really hard to believe

when other people start later on in life. Well, I mean, you've got to imagine a lot of the spaces that I go into, I might be the only African-American in that space. When I was a cryptologist, there were two young African-Americans, and they kept us separated, right? And so, like, I'm always in a space where I'm like, man, am I supposed to be here?

Right? Am I good enough to be here? The reality is when you first get in that space, that's what you're going to think. But then afterwards, you look back and it was like, you know, the reason why I was there was because I was very, very good. But that takes time to learn those things, right? And I grew up in a situation where I associated people with wealth to be better than me because I had. nothing, right? Like I had, I was a freshman in high school that showed up with a tweet suitcase that I got from the third store to wear as a backpack. So I'm carrying this 50 cent old school

70 style porn-esque type suitcase, right, that you would think that I'm some old businessman, right, that's carrying a suitcase to use as my backpack because I couldn't afford a backpack, right? So those things are a little bit embarrassing. I was a little bit embarrassed in that scenario and I was always trying to sort of fit in when I didn't really fit in, right, because I wasn't like everyone else. And I didn't feel that whether or not that I was smart. I never got the chance to really think about that. All I was thinking about was I got to work harder than everyone else in order to make sure that I stay in this spot that's giving me money, that's giving me an opportunity. And then what I realized over time is I just kept

chasing hard problems, right? I chased the thing that everyone else didn't want to do because again, I get pushed to the back of the room, right? I don't look like everyone else. I'm not getting the same opportunities to everyone else. So then I had to make my niche being the thing that everyone else didn't want to do. Right. So being in cryptology, I end up doing a lot of stuff that was, people was like, oh, that's too hard, right? Or that problem's unsolvable. And I'll just be like, okay, I'll take a crack at it. And I just work and work and work. And now it seems like a lot when you look at my resume, even I was like, man, I can't believe I did all this stuff. But in reality, I didn't have a choice, right?

I kept getting opportunities taken away from me. And the only way for me to even get down and have some semblance of job satisfaction or whatever was to try hard things and it kept taking me a different path. Originally, I was a chemistry major, right? And I got forced to move out of chemistry because my basketball coach said it was taking away in a distraction from the team. So he made me switch majors or I had to quit basketball. I had identified myself as a basketball player, not as an academic, whatever.

And I was just like, okay, I'm switching to something easy and math came easy to me and that's all I thought about. I didn't think about how technically an applied mathematics degree for the United States Naval Academy is a very hard degree to get and people pay attention to those things. That didn't matter to me. I literally, after graduation, I threw my degree in the trash. that's the truth. I honestly threw it in their trash. I was like, I don't know what this is for. It didn't.

I couldn't understand the semblance and the meaning of it. I understand it now, but that's the honest to God truth. If you come in my office, you don't see any of my degrees on the wall. It was hard for me to acknowledge those things. I want to celebrate your success because getting a math degree is above my head. Getting a math degree is hard. Getting a math degree says to the corporate world, the hiring world, the business world, that this guy is really, really, really smart. And that math degree is going to

open up a lot of doors. If you decided not to be a robot surgeon, if you decided to do something else entirely, having a math degree is going to say this brain works in a different way than somebody who gets a different degree. Their brain would work. And it doesn't make it this different degree worse than you. It's just different. Your mathematical mind is like you're an analyst. Anybody would hire you as an analyst than a heartbeat because you are like what's a cryptographer first of all. I don't even know what cryptology is. So cryptology, if the easiest way to think about it is like the World War II code breakers, right? Oh, okay.

Yeah, so signals, intelligence, things like that. So my thing in that realm was cybersecurity. And that was one of those things that I got put into and I got a chance to do it. they didn't believe I was going to do it. My boss put his job on the line for me to even get that opportunity. Wow. And what was the path from your math degree to the cryptology? Well, I originally started in a Navy nuclear community. So I passed the nuke interview, which is like this random thing. And again, I only did that because they were offering a bonus and the bonus money could have helped my family. Right. So again, you see that like,

the carrot in a stick. I kept chasing this carrot of I need more money for my family. So let me go do whatever's offering money. And I just did whatever it took, studied as hard as I could or whatever. And I just magically got through these doors and I kept getting to the next step. Right. So I started there. And the only reason why I didn't make it to a submarine or anything like that was because my medical waiver never got submitted. And so I ended up with basically no job after completing a couple, like one of courses and I got the option to either get out or go do this thing called cryptology, which they told me it was just cool math stuff. And I was like, okay, I know math. Let's go do some cool stuff. Was it cool math stuff? No, not at all. Not until the tail end of what I was doing

before I went to medical school. It was no cool math stuff. It was a lot of cool stuff, just not cool math stuff. Okay. So for those of us who haven't been in the Navy, does going to the Naval Academy automatically mean you're in the Navy? Yes and no, right? It depends because the Navy, part of the Navy is the Marine Corps. So you either go into Navy or Marines primarily. You can petition to go into the Air Force or Army, but majority of the graduates go either way.

Okay. So are you currently in the Navy or the Marines? I am. And let me caveat this. Nothing I say here is representative of the United States Navy. I am speaking on behalf of Dr. David Roney. I'm not represented. Yes, thank you.

Okay, I'm glad that we had that opportunity to give that disclaimer to you. Okay, so when you graduate, the Naval Academy is like college. That was where you went after high school. So you graduated from the Naval Academy and you shared the story of signing up for a credit card every time you were in the airport. What sort of debt did you graduate college with? Oh, so I graduated. So at the Naval Academy, they make you take what's called a career starter loan. It's a zero percent interest, at the time of zero percent interest, 30 or 35,000.

Then I took another loan, which was another career starting loan, was like $5,000. And it signed you up for a life insurance policy that you paid off, whatever. So I had probably close to $70,000. I bought a new car right before I graduated. Because the place I was supposed to move, I had an F-150 that I was driving. It was way too big to be going around South Carolina and F-150 at the time. And gas was outrageous. So I bought a Volvo bad decision for me because that was the worst car I ever owned.

So I had about 70,000 when I graduated. And a full-ride scholarship, so you didn't have any student loans. That was just all credit cards and car loans. No student loan. Okay. And after graduation. What year is this that we're talking? 2007.

2007. Okay. So after graduation, do you immediately go to medical school? No. So I did the Navy nuclear power community stuff for about six months and then switched into probably about four or six months at some time frame in there and then switched to the cryptology community. And then about three years later went to medical school.

Okay. So what was your financial position going into medical school? This is going to be like 2010? Okay. Well, it was pretty good at that point because once I made the decision to go to medical school, I just went into overly save mode. And so I just saved everything I could because I got this singular focus. Like that was the only thing that matter.

I wasn't buying anything. Everything was devoted towards saving so I could pay for things associated with the medical school process because the medical school application process is actually prohibitive if you don't have money. It can be very, very expensive. I'm talking about five to ten grand expensive. And that's not having the amount of money that you might need in order to apply broadly because I wasn't a great candidate because I didn't study at the Naval Academy. I never failed in class, never really tried too hard at the Naval Academy.

So my grades I know were lower. My MCAT score was lower. so I knew that I needed to apply it broadly. In order to apply broadly, it was going to be a lot of money. So I saved like crazy. And I probably should have paid off more debt. But if I got into medical school, I had like a $35,000. I can't, it might have been close to $30,000, like sign on bonus for going to medical school for taking the Navy scholarship.

So it was something crazy. So 2010, you get into medical school. You've spent all this money applying to medical school. you get in, you get your $30,000, $35,000 in like a stipend? Well, so it was, so I got a sign. I can't remember with that. I just remember it was between me selling back all of my vacation time and whatever bonus they gave me, which was pretty significant.

It was like 30, $35,000 roughly. And then the military paid for me to go to medical school. Oh, so you didn't graduate. I went to medical school and, yeah, I went. went to medical school on an HPSP scholarship. It was a health profession scholarship program where the military pays for you to go to school. It doesn't cover all of your costs, but it covers probably a good significant portion of it. And then are you required to continue on with the Navy when you graduate? Yeah, it's about a year for year for year commitment. So if they pay for four years in medical school,

you owe them four years back. But obviously, I had been in for a while, so it wasn't that big of a deal for me. Okay. I didn't know anything else. And can you talk about the decision-making process to go to medical school? It sounds like things were going okay with the job in general. So yeah, why switch careers essentially? So I made the decision to go to a medical school because I wanted to have to feel like I had a tangible, like, result of helping people, right? Like being in the field that I was in in cryptology, everything's, it's secret squirrel world, right? So people don't even know that you exist. and they don't even know that you're going to help them.

And I really wanted to feel like I can see the results of what I was doing. And I wanted a hands-on thing. And I wanted the ability to impact more lives. So I felt like going to becoming a doctor would be the best bet. I honestly had no clue what surgeons made. I literally had no idea. All I knew it was it was something hard that people said I couldn't do. So I was going to do it.

Well, and that makes me look at sort of your career trajectory and where you are now and where you came from those, you know, tough years growing up. And you're sort of moving to, you know, maybe not bigger challenges, but pretty large challenges and long term. So how did you keep motivated? How did you push through? It sounds like you weren't always welcomed in the different environments that you were showing up in.

So how did you keep motivated, especially with the really long-term goals? Well, I mean, at the end of the day, what other choice that I? I have, right? Like, if I didn't succeed, what happens to my mom, right? Now, my mom's passed, but if I didn't succeed, there's people who were looking up to me, right, to be an example. Like, for instance, my brother is older to me, said that I was the motivation for him to keep going, right? Because he kept seeing me do hard things. So when he told me that, I was like, man, I can't give up. And then the other thing is my mom used to always say is, are you going to give people the satisfaction of knowing they got to you? Right. So, like,

you're telling me I can't do this. Am I supposed to give you that satisfaction? I'm too stubborn for that. And so at the end of the day, I didn't have a choice. What else was I supposed to do? At the end of, I don't have a fallback plan, right? I don't because I don't have that support network. So my only choice is to keep going and to be successful because if I'm not,

then it's all over. Like there's no reason for me to be on this earth, right? because I'm falling right back down. I started literally with negative. When I went to the Naval Academy, we became homeless again. My mom got sick again. She stopped paying the bills when I was away because I was the person responsible for paying the bills.

I lost everything on my clothes. I had no home to go back to. I had no pictures from childhood, nothing. Right. And I literally sat at the Naval Academy and I'm just like, well, I don't even know what home is anymore. Right. So like every step of the way,

way, I've been the one but like, okay, you know what, I have to put another foot forward. I have to put another step forward because I didn't have a choice. My back's always been against that wall. Wow, that's, that's heavy stuff. And I wonder and feel free to skip this question, but like did your teammates or some of your close network at the Naval Academy know some of the struggles that you were going through at the time? Well, I mean, you have to understand that people, I mean, you're 18, 19, 20,

year old kids, right? So like, you aren't going to be as mature to understand. So I got teased a lot, right? I got teased a lot. People made fun of me a lot, right? Because they couldn't understand. They couldn't relate to what I had been through. They couldn't relate to the trauma. And let's say, I get defensive earlier. And I feel like I'm a caged animal and I have to like respond because I've always had to be defensive in order to save myself. Right. So they're not going to respond to that. So like, I didn't, from that aspect, I have very few. teammates who are very supportive of that. So I hear you, I know what you're saying.

I'm totally understanding what you're saying, but you're saying what other choice did I have but to continue forward. There's a lot of people that give up. There's a lot of people who could continue to go forward and they're like, never mind. Life's just going to kick me in the teeth. So I'm just going to let it. And I'm saying that to kind of celebrate you and celebrate your will and and your determination and your motivation,

and you continue to move forward because that isn't the story for everybody. And I'm wondering if you have come to terms with that yet, like, hey, I really did great in life. Because you did. You really have done amazing. And I'm excited for your future. You've got a lot on your horizon.

You're going to just crush it because of this determination, this will, this I'm not going to quit. I'm not going to let them see that they got. to me, I'm going to win because I have to. Like, that's a, that's a really strong personality trait. And I want to celebrate that. I want to, I want to say, you know, that's great because you did absolutely have a choice. You could have said, it's not going to work out.

That's where I hit the genetic lottery, right? Because I don't look like my mom, but my mom was the, that was her. That was her personality. She had been through 10 times worse than what I went through as a kid, right? And I don't, I don't understate that or anything like that. I have nothing I can complain about what the stuff that my mom went through and she survived. And so we may have, I may have been born into a situation where we were in poverty, but like I hit the lottery when I gained her attitude like, well, you know what?

You're not going to stop me, right? All these challenges aren't going to stop me. And the other thing is calling it quits is the easy thing to do, right? it's super easy to do that. The hard thing, right, is actually to keep going forward. And then what I started to realize over time, there's value in doing the hard thing. There is value in doing the hard thing. Quitting is absolutely the easy thing to do.

And that's just you're reiterating what I said. I'm celebrating you because you have pushed through. And yes, your mother had different circumstances than you and they weren't as good as yours. But your circumstances weren't as good as somebody else's. And it's very easy to say, well, I guess life's just going to kick me in the teeth and I'm going to be done with it. Yeah, I refuse to be that. Right.

So like in my house, my kids know the words I can't doesn't don't get said in this house, right? That's actually a bad word in this house. Considering I use swear words a lot, like that's actually a worse word to like phrase to say. And they know that I'll immediately peek up and like, nope, you're not saying that. Figure it out. Right. Because at the end of the day, when it comes down, to things, whether that skill of not giving up and doing the hard thing, that translates, right?

And what I used to always say is I'm going to try and make myself so valuable, right, no matter what I'm doing, what field I am, so valuable that you're forced to keep me around and forced to pay me. That's an awesome mentality to have because then your bosses are like, wow, I can't get rid of David because I would have to hire 17 people to do the work that he does. The other thing is I make an effort that every place I leave, I leave better. And so if I haven't left that place better, then I didn't do my job and I need to stay longer. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

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Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent.com slash money-free. At Desjardin, our business is helping yours. We're here to support your business through every stage of growth, from your first pitch to your first acquisition. Whether it's improving cash flow or exploring investment banking solutions, with Desjardin business, it's all under one roof. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk, business. Okay, let's get back to medical school. you're a surgeon. That's longer than just going through medical school, right? You have to go through

medical school and then surgery school? Yeah, you go through what's called residency. So, residences are anywhere from three to seven years. Like, neurosurgery is the longest residency you can go through. Originally, I was going to be a neurosurgeon. I had, that was my goal, right? Because my brother said, if it's not hard, I'm not doing it. And neurosurgery was the hardest thing you can do brain surgery. I'm glad I'm not a neurosurgeon today, right? But the reason why I'm not a surgeon today is because of discrimination and I got told they didn't want someone like me. Oh, wow. And so despite all of my qualifications, I graduated near the top of my class. I had great board scores. Hit all the checks in the box. But the one box I didn't check was I

looked the way I looked and they didn't like that. And so I got pushed down a different path. And so I could have said, no what, I'm screw this. Like this is my dream and then been mad about it. But instead, I just made my own path and said, I don't know what, just put me in an operating room. I don't care what happens. I don't care what title you give me. I just want to operate. That's the major thing for me. And so I just took what God gave me and I just kept going.

That's got to be really discouraging to be told no, we don't want to. That is when. It's not the first time. It's not the first time. He told me that at the Naval Academy when I showed up after two weeks. There was like, hey, you know, you don't belong here. and we're going to do whatever it takes to get you out of here. And I told them flat out, I will, I don't have anywhere to go.

And this is the best place for me. So I'm staying. You can do whatever you want to try, but it's not going to work. I love that attitude. So after residence, after medical school, which was paid for by the military, what was your financial position? Graduating from college, you had around $70,000 in debt. you were in super safe mode to pay for medical school.

What did your debt load look like when you graduated medical school? So when I graduated medical school, so I took out in order to make sure my mom didn't take the burn, right? Because now when I was working on active duty, I had a certain level of lifestyle. And I was paying my mom. I think I subsidized her, I think, $1,000 a month. And my brother was giving her roughly $1,000 a month. to help her out because she couldn't work. And so, like, I had to keep that up. So I took out

some loans, right, because there were low percentage at the time, 6.8% to me below 7 wasn't bad. I was like, I'll make enough in the future as a doctor in general to be able to pay these back. So it wasn't a big deal. So I took out loans to make sure that her lifestyle didn't take a hit. I decided to go to medical school, right? Because that was my decision. And I had already, like, took this thing on to help make sure that her lifestyle was okay. And so graduated, I think I had at about 70,000, right? Because the thing they don't tell you about medical school is during your fourth year, when you have to go interview and you have to stay in these hotels and the rental

cards and stuff, that's all on you, right? Most people have to take out loans they're seeing here. and that can be 30 to 40 grand of an expense, depending on how many interviews you do and how many rotations away from your house that you do, right? And that's a hidden cost of medicine. The other thing is our board exams, which in medical school, you're going to take three board exams, right? Those can cost altogether about five, six grand.

So now you're taking out loans for that stuff, right? and then you have to account for the fact that after you graduate medical school, you're not making any money yet because you haven't started working in residency. So you need money to be able to transition from being a medical student to a resident and you have to move wherever your residency is and you have to move your whole house. So then that costs money. So by the end I had about $70,000 when I started residency. Now is that the 70 on top of the 70 that you already had or had you paid off the other

70. I had paid off the other 70 because I was like, well, I had these bonuses. I was like, well, I'll just pay everything off. I paid off my car. At the beginning of medical school, I had zero debt when I walked in. So I started from a pretty good place, right? So I started in heavy debt. I was like, I lived a pretty frugal lifestyle unknowingly to me. And then I paid off all that debt and got in debt again, which was good debt this time, right? Because this was me investing in myself, right? So now I have a degree that's worth X amount of whatever. And so I was like, you know, I can, I'm getting pretty good at this business stuff. I'm starting to learn a little bit more. I was like, well, fine, I'll just negotiate it into my contract, right? Whether I'm going to get a student loan repayment or not,

because when I got in a medical school, the first thing I did was start asking every doctor I saw about the business side of medicine. What would they do differently? How to think about contracts? how do you get paid, how does the health insurance work? How do you negotiate all these things? So I started learning that stuff from day one. That's huge. I mean, look at how far ahead you are at the end of your med school, beginning of your residency. You're headed shoulders above all the people that you just graduated from school with who didn't

talk about any of that stuff. Maybe they take the first job that is thrown their way because they don't, know anything about this. They don't know that you can negotiate all of these things in there. So what did you negotiate into your residency? Can you talk about that? So in the residency, there's no negotiating that you can do, right? Because it's a standardized contract. But for me, like, I knew that after my four years in the military, after I paid them back, now I've got all my power back, right? Because now I'm like, well, I can go to the highest bidder if I want. I can go to the lowest bidder if I want. And so now I'm starting to approach that

next tier in 2023. I'll be able to say, hey, you know what? Actually, do I want to sign a new contract with the military or do I want to go somewhere else or do I want to go in the middle of nowhere, stuff like that? And I'm getting back to that. But like that was years of preparation and understanding what the landscape looks like. And when you were, so it sounds like you were slowly getting a handle on your finances paying down the debt and then starting in a much better position. When did you start thinking about either financial independence or more about personal finance where you're thinking, hey, I not only understand, but I'm going to take this farther and I'm going to like own this situation. Well, the thing that would make you do that

is have a kid, right? Because man, I remember me and my wife got married in 2016 and we got pregnant shortly thereafter. We weren't planning to have a kid that first year. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, I sat in the car crying, right? Because I was a resident. And I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do this, right? Like, we're just trying to make it. I'm working a lot.

I'm frustrated. And I'm like, how are we supposed to add another mouth? And that's when I was like, okay, total shift. I'm either going to hit this wall and fail or I got to figure something out. And so then I was like, you know what, I have a lot of skills that I've obtained. I'm going to figure out how to start making extra money. And then I got on a bigger pockets form. I was like, okay, what's this real estate investing thing?

Because I started hearing about it on HDTV, right? And so like, I'm looking. I'm like, well, how do I do this? Like someone from bigger pockets. And then I started like reading all this stuff that's there. And I'm consuming book after book after book after book. and I'm like, you know what, I have to, the thing I need to get to is financial independence, so I never have to worry about what this situation will ever occur in.

So you read all these real estate books. You now own how many doors? I don't own enough. I say, so I have, I have one, I have two doors and both of them have been house hacked. And one of them I'm currently living in, which I think is probably going to be are forever homes because I really like this house. But what I did is buy correctly, right? So I bought in an area each time the house that I negotiated, right? So I used a VA loan the first time around and the sellers paid are 90% of our closing costs. And so we only had to pay, I think, five grand, right? But that house we bought in 2017 has about 150,000. in equity right now, right? And so we started with about 9,000 and then we threw appreciation in the

market. And then I knew that they would be expanding out to that area eventually. So time has started to sort of allow that house to appreciate. And then the other thing is I have a tenant in there and we cash flow a pretty significant amount above the actual mortgage because my VA mortgage is low and that that size of a house actually commands a higher rent. So there's a pretty good margin right there. And it's a newer house, right? So like my capital expenditures and I'm not having to worry about putting a roof on right now. The appliances are fairly new, things like that. So like my numbers worked out very well. The house that we currently bought, which I bought sight unseen, my wife saw the house twice. and then I was out of the country when we bought the house.

Well, we bought the house and it immediately appreciated because of sales in the neighborhood. Now it's $70,000 worth $70,000 more than what we paid and that we bought the house in May. Yes, the 2021 ridiculous housing market that we find ourselves in. What part of the world are we in? You had mentioned South Carolina. So I'm in Virginia currently. Okay. Right outside Norfolk.

Okay. So there's a huge military presence there. And you're still in the military. When do you get out? I am. So we just had Grumpus Maximus on the podcast on episode 253, and he talked about your pension. And if you have been in the military for four years of college and four years of med school, and you graduated med school in 2014, now you've got, what, 12?

years in, 16 years in? That's pretty good math, actually. So they do a funny calculation where that they give me all of those years for my pay, but they half those years for my service and move my retirement to 2035. So, but the kicker is, is if I make it to that point, I get like 28 or 30 years at retirement, something crazy. And so it actually increases the amount of pension that I would be eligible for. I haven't decided what I'm going to do.

I have a couple more months to, I have to decide by February 28th, if I'm staying a little bit longer or if I'm going, getting out and doing something else. Ooh, okay. So this is, I said it was episode 253. It's actually episode 259 of the money podcast where we talk about pensions. Not every pension is going to be worth it. But one thing to consider, and you're a doctor. So this is, again, like all these different things on your C-Slaw to consider, one thing to consider with a military pension is you have access to TRICARE and your dependents have access to TRICARE.

And that is enormously huge, except you're a surgeon. So you probably have access to doctors. And my mom's a nurse. We never went to the doctor when I was a kid because all you're going to do is see the nurse and they're going to be like, it's nothing. It's just a cold. You're a kid. Get over it. Like we went when there was an issue, but it was like it's no big deal.

appendix out and I came home from work and I'm like, mom, my side hair. And she's like, let's go to the hospital. I'm like, oh my God, you never say that. Like, this is, this must be really serious. So you have access to medical care. I mean, you're a doctor. So maybe that's not such a big concern for you. I'm not sure. There's no bad decision here. Right. So that's the best, well, that's the best and the worst because it's so easy to make the decision when there's like, this is great and this one's garbage. I'll make the great decision. Yeah. So there's no bad decision here. So I'm just going with the flow. I'm not trying to, it was stressing me out for a little bit because I was like, I'm a person that like tries to figure out what's the next objective.

And there's really no, I'm at a fork in a row, right? There's no bad decision. I just have to make a decision and go either way. But I mean, there are some drawbacks, right? Because if I get out and I hate it, do I go back in? Or if I stay in and things change and I'm like, start to hate it. And I'm like, well, it's going to take me another five years to get out, right? And so those are just things that I have to think about. But I don't have a bad decision. Yeah. It's whatever keeps my family happiest.

That's interesting. So if you get out and you decide that you don't want to be out, you want to go back in. How old are you right now? I don't think we ever talked about how actually- I'll be 37 on Sunday. My birthday's tomorrow. Okay. Happy birthday.

So if you're 37, can you go back in? Do the age limits not apply to you because you've already been before or do they not apply to you because you're a doctor? It's a little bit of both, right? Because I have a rare skill as a surgeon. You kind of can't be choosy on who you're taking. So as long as I'm in shape and I can pass mustard and someone will always take me. Okay. Okay.

Oh, that's interesting. You really don't have any bad options at all. And then if you do get out and you decide you want to go back in. does your next period of time get added to the other one or you don't start over, do you? No, my previous period is added to the new period. Okay. So what would you do if you left? I don't know because there's days that I really, so I have three loves, finance, technology, and health care. And I try my best to be at the intersection of those, right?

And so I contemplate a lot of times on whether or not I'm staying in medicine full time, whether or not I want to be a surgeon full time because I'm actually better served doing a bunch of things as opposed to focusing on one thing because I might end up getting bored. When I was going to say this may be related. So you seem like the kind of man, David, that likes challenges. You've talked about like kind of going after challenges and doing the harder thing. and what challenges are you going after like right now? It sounds like you're making a decision where you have like two pretty good decisions in your path. So yeah,

what are you looking for right now to push you hard? Well, so I have this idea to build a early warning system for patients, right, for their medical records where basically it keeps track of like, hey, you know, you're approaching age of 45.

and your family history suggests that you have a high, you're a high risk for colon cancer. You should schedule a colonoscopy. Or you're like, hey, you know, I need to go see a doctor. I can look the doctor up and send them all of my medical, pertinent medical history by the press of a button directly to their office. So it uploads to their EMR. Those are like the ideas that I have that I really want to develop because I think it would, I made this promise when my mother died that I would help as many as possible because she, died unexpectedly from the medical system not being what it should be in which is taking care of patients and being preventative. So that's one thing. The other thing is I really, I'm tired of

the diversity numbers being bad in a lot of fields, right? Like people look at me today and still shut the door on and I think it's kind of ridiculous, right? Because after the fact, after they read my resume and they read my bio, they go, oh, well, he's actually pretty talented. But when they look at me up front, they judge me and say, you know what, actually, he's not talented. And I think it's kind of ridiculous, right? I might not be the most talented person in the world. There's probably somebody way more talented than me who's not getting the opportunity. I think that sucks, right? So I'm trying to change that. So what I say is all the time, I try to kick down as many doors as I can and leave them open. So that's one thing. And then another thing is the

financial literacy aspect, right? I hate the fact that quality financial advice is not affordable in this country. I hate the fact that when I'm a surgeon, you want my business, right? Because I'm a Henry or whatever you want to call me. But when I'm making $45,000, you don't want my business because I don't qualify as someone you're interested in. But the reality is, I was full of potential, right? If you would have taught me the things that I knew, right? We could develop the bond. We could develop, and I would have never left you because you always would have taken care of me. That's 10 years

worth of business and 10 years worth of income growth that they could have had, right? Back then, that maybe if I had a financial advisor, they didn't be like, hey, you realize you don't really need to go to medical school, right? Because if I had just stayed in the path that was on, I'd be retiring from the military in a couple years from now, right? And, you know, and, you know, And I'd be 42 years old starting another career and I'm already got a government pension. And that's all that passive income that I was always wanting. I was already on the path of financial independence and I had no idea. Right.

And so those are just things. It could have changed the trajectory of where I'm going. So I try and make financial advice. I try and democratize, like truly democratize it. right? So like make sure that people who are like me can get access to jargon-free information that they need to succeed. And I use stories from my life in order to teach people those lessons. I love that. And who could better use the financial advice, the 18-year-old kid who actually has a Roth IRA or the 47-year-old guy with $300,000? You have so much more potential. Look at what you are

income and not even your income. Look at what your net worth could be if you actually have a Roth IRA when you're 18 years old. It just keeps growing and growing and growing. I mean, it grows faster if you contribute to it every year. But even if you don't, it will continue to grow. You have so many more opportunities because you're 18, you have your financial life in front of you. That's what we're doing here with the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. We're just, we're trying to tell every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everybody, no matter when or where you're starting, which I say at the beginning of every single show. You know, it's interesting.

That Roth IRA was a, like, remember I told you, I didn't start that. I didn't know what it was, right? So like my coach was a gods and was an angel, right, and started that and put me in a hard situation to make sure it's getting funded every month. That paid for my mother's funeral, right? So think about that. If he never did that, my mom died. I have no money to pay for her funeral.

So those, and then me getting a Roth IRA and learning what that was led me to teaching my brother what a Roth IRA was. And he got the same thing and started investing. So like it had a ripple effect, right? And I think those things are extremely important. And those are things that I try and champion, right, and make sure that I'm fighting for those and equitable access. It's funny, you ask me about how many doors I have.

I go back and forth with whether or not I want to really buy apartment buildings or buy commercial real estate. And I'm constantly reading, constantly reading, constantly reading. And I'm trying to just figure out where I fit in in the threshold because there's a huge spectrum of these things, right? I learned two years ago or a year and a half ago about mortgage notes. I didn't even know that was a thing. And so I found it on Bigger Pocket's podcast.

I was like, oh, wow, what is this? And then I started worrying about all these different things. A random 18-year-old is not going to know any of it, right? And people don't know their options for even getting a home loan, right? And even then the VA loan or FHA loan or was it the NACA loan? Like there's all these little things, right? Or the first time home buyers assistance programs in their city. People don't know to look for them.

Or the fact that guess what, that Section 8 voucher that you just got approved for that actually can buy your home for you if you decide to go that route. You don't have to rent a home. I didn't know that. It was actually intended for that was the intended purpose for that program. I didn't know that. Yes. That was the original intended purpose for that program.

Does it still work? Like if you have a Section 8 voucher, can you use that to pay your mortgage? Yes. Okay, now I have to do some research on that because that's not something that I have not. It's not well advertised. It's not where advertised. But that was the original intention of that program.

I love that. And I am in real estate. I work at finger pockets. I talk about real estate all day, every day. And I'm just learning about this now. I need to be a little bit more curious, David. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I am trying to, I'm thinking bigger, right? And I'm willing to sort of save and invest and wait because I'm trying to learn how to develop

affordable homes that I can actually make a positive impact on the community around. me. So I've pulled back from the thought that, you know, I just want to develop this mini real estate empire. I'm just going to buy a bunch of single family homes and rent them out. I don't want to do that because I'm like, you know, the people who are going to afford those homes, right, because now we're talking about, and I learned this from Brandon Turner to ABC, D class neighborhood stuff, right? And so I'm looking, I'm like, you know, I really don't necessarily know if that's a good thing for me to be in, right? Because I don't, it's not helping people where I like where I came from. So like I look at cities like Detroit and I look at Port Smith, Virginia,

I look at Compton, California. Now, California real estate price is out of control. But I'm like, you know, if I can just go buy a large block of land and develop affordable homes on it, one, I can create some good for them and create a level of profit for me, right, and do both at the same time. Yes. Okay. So there is this company that, is building these affordable houses. And I'm talking like $20,000, but they still look like they're in Architectural Digest magazine. They're really beautiful. But I don't think they have a lot of insulation in them. So they would have to be built in a warmer climate. But how cold does it get in Virginia in the wintertime? I think like it can get some frost, the occasional like snow,

right? So not real snow, but snow. But it can probably get, I think probably a, 32 high 20s. It doesn't get, it gets cold enough, but not a lot. Okay, so that's like, your pipes aren't going to freeze at 32 if there's a little bit of insulation, but they'll freeze at zero if there's a little bit of insulation. So, okay. Yeah, I will find that link. I will include it in our show notes, but I'll also send it to you because it's a really

interesting project. And I'd love to hear what you think about it. Yeah, please send it to me. Like I said, I am trying to learn, which is the reason why I'm, trying to like bug this developer who luckily answers my phone calls. So I can learn how to build these things from the ground up in order to really figure out what numbers work. But I mean, everything's just super expensive right now. Boy, you're not kidding.

Come out to Colorado. Everybody wants to be here. Well, I mean, there's stuff that I thought would be maybe a couple, like two years ago, plots of land that were like $5,000 or probably like $60,000, $70,000 now. It's kind of ridiculous. It's really annoying, actually. Yeah. And then I hear that. I'm like, ooh, $60,000 land. Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's the part of the thing about being where I am is you, like, it's a great, it's a great opportunity to have a population that's going to be consistent. but it has this challenges, right? So, like, flood insurance is a thing here if you aren't paying attention.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We don't have flood insurance. We're in a desert. Plus, we're at, like, 5,000 feet. Yeah, so you don't have to worry about that. Hurricanes are a thing, right?

And so, like, everything that comes with being on a coast and being technically four feet under sea levels, I mean, it's like, it's really weird. Like, there's places that you're like, this. be underwater, right? Every time the water, like, it rises. So kind of switching gears just a little bit here. Do you have any tips to approach people that might need help with financial knowledge without coming on so strong that they're turned off?

I guess, you know, we do a very bad job of teaching financial literacy, right? And we teach with a jargon-filled approach where, hey, what you need to do is you need to utilize this zero degree or a zero-based budget or this envelope method and the I have people don't think like that they think in scenarios right like hey i don't know how i'm supposed to pay this bill next month hey i don't know how i'm supposed to add like me an extra amount to feed with what i'm making right and so i think there's an opportunity like let people tell you what their problem is and if they go and say hey you know what I really want to get a new car. I'm not sure I can afford it. Then sit down with them and say, well, you know, where's your budget?

Well, and they're going to be like, well, what do you mean by budget? Well, like, oh, here's a budget. Let's make one right now so you can know where all your money's going and then help them find the answers because it's going to be a longer lasting connection. Right. If you give people answers, that's easy to go in one year out the other. They're going to keep that answer as long as they need it. But it's not going to be a long-term memory thing. But if they can form the connections and come to like two plus two equals four realization,

it will stay with them forever. Yeah, that is so powerful. And it's really hard for me to not just be like, here's all the information you need and overwhelm people. I actually did used to do that a lot. And guess how many people retained that information? I think zero. Yeah, I mean, it's something that we all do, right? Because we are finance geeks and we like talking about this stuff.

And then we forget that other people. people aren't the same way. So they don't necessarily want to hear about all these things. They just want to hear about how to get from where they are to on the other side of their problem or their issue. So they don't need the full financial journey. They just need a snapshot. And along the way, you can give them little nuggets, right, that really they can develop themselves. Because the whole goal is not for you to teach them everything, but to get them to want to teach themselves and continue to ask questions and learn. This has been a lot of fun.

This has been super, super helpful. And I feel like I was telling Doug, I love your story and I hate your story. I love what you've been able to accomplish. I think that you need to spend more time patting yourself on the back because you really have done a lot. And what was my choice? You could have just quit. There's a lot of people out there with less trying circumstances than you have gone

through that have just quit. And they're like, well, I guess it's not going to work out. So you need to spend more time backing, patting yourself on the back and congratulating yourself because you really have done a phenomenal job. But I also hate your story because you've had so many things thrown at you simply because you're African American. And that sucks. And yeah, it does suck. I'm not African American. So I don't experience those same prejudices. And I don't have those feelings. So I don't, like, it's, It's rather shocking that that's still happening in 2021. I mean, I lived through 2020.

It's not that shocking. But it's like, it's still shocking. You are a surgeon. You are a mathematician, cryptologist, cybersecurity specialist NCAA athlete, which doesn't really pertain to mental space. But like, and you can't get in the door as easily as I can. I am not a mathematician. I didn't even know what cryptology was.

and that's just not right. It baffles me actually because the worst part for me is when I see someone else get an opportunity that I also went for and they have less credentials, right? So I have tons of emails that people say, oh, yeah, you look, your resume is super impressive. You're obviously very brilliant, but unfortunately, we're going to go in a different direction because we want to give this other person the opportunity. Or, hey, or like at the Naval Academy, hey, you know what? I know you deserve that B, but you're never going to grad school anyway. So let me give this other person to B because they're eventually going to go to grad school.

You can just use the C. That actually happened to me. And those are things that happen. You don't have a certain number of Bs to hand out. That's what happened to me. You don't just have a certain number of bees to hand out and then you have to give Cs. What a bunch of crap? That happened to me. And I'm just like, you know, you got to be kidding me. And I mean, I still, like I said, I get opportunities taken away from me. I get the lack of opportunity. I have to fight for every thing that I want to do. I mean, in the last year, I took, really took a long, hard look at the things that I wanted to do. And I was like, you know, like this venture capital thing sounds fun, right? Like sounds challenging. And I get to. And so I was like, well, how do you even get into the industry? So I asked a lot of people.

And I would get doors shut on me there. I still get doors shut on me there. I was like, well, I guess they don't want me. So like, guess what I'll just make my own way? And so that's what I just keep doing. I just keep making my own way. And I'm going to continue doing so because I haven't hit the goal that I want to hit. Then I'll really feel like I did something, right? And that goal is 20 million in net worth, not necessarily for the benefit of my immediate family, but for generations. I'm concerned about my life. legacy, right? My mom died at the age of 49. I'll be 37 on Sunday. And so I think about that. Like, what if I only have 12 more years left, right? What do I want my kids to be able to carry forward? Like, I can't, if I, if I don't start them off better than where I was, then I fail. If my legacy doesn't snowball and that my grandkids can pick up and run with, then I fail. Because I had every opportunity while I was alive to do these things, right? We all have the same 24 hours, right? And I can sit here and complain about what I wasn't given or I can go out and get it. And so I just choose to go out and get it. I love your attitude. I don't know that I would have

the same attitude. I might give up. I don't think that. But that's, I refuse to think that. I mean, imagine what you could do if all the doors were open. You know, that's actually a scary thing. Imagine what we have missed out on. That's actually a scary thing, right? Because like my thing is my brain never stops working. So like I walk into a scenario. I'm like looking and I'm listening to see how I can provide value. And then I start hearing and I connect the dots and I start hearing people talk about problems.

I'm like, you know, that problem shouldn't exist. And I run through a scenario in my head like, that problem shouldn't exist. I wonder if I can find a solution. Then I start like working on solutions and stuff like that. That's how I operate and that's how I do everything that I do is I try and find the things that people are saying or a problem and I try and fix them and provide value. Look, imagine what you could do if all the doors were open and imagine what others could do who did decide to stop.

What have we lost because the doors have been closed and nobody helped them? They didn't have the same David Drive. and nobody helped them kick down those doors. They didn't have the motivation. It's interesting, right? Because I think about this all the time. When I was in medical school, I did a preceptorship with basically a sort of like you follow around that doctor to learn what they do and how they do in that specialty. And he's a OBGYN, black man.

And the reason he became an OBGYN because at a time, African Americans weren't. allowed to become surgeons. Like you just couldn't get into a residency, but they would let you into OBGYN residency, right? And so that was the only way they were going to become a surgeon. If they wanted to become a surgeon, they had to go that route. And I think about that, right? And I think about the difficulty I had. And it doesn't make me feel as bad because I know that could have been the same scenario that I was in. And so it makes me change my mindset. Someone always, has it worse. I remember after going through all the crazy stuff that we were going through as a kid, I remember I had a friend whose family escaped South Africa during apartheid, right? And so he

would tell me all these stories and I'm like, man, you know, I didn't really eat the past couple days, but like you went through a lot. Like, I'm not doing that bad, right? Because I was born in the U.S. And so I try never to complain about that because someone always has it worse than you. That's true, but there's always somebody that's better too. And it just sucks. And I'm sorry that that has been your experience. And I am absolutely delighted that you have this David drive. I'm going to call it that now.

You're David drive that won't let you quit. Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to learn. And sort of a side note here kind of reminds me of David Goggins a little bit. I've listened to and read his book. And do you get that every now and then, David? No, nobody brings that up. But first off, the guy was a Navy SEAL. his story is amazing, right?

And I think he's a nutcase when he's sitting there running those long marathons and talking at the same time. That's just crazy. Like, I'm not that type of person, right? So, like, I will happily watch you run a marathon and drink some juice or something like that to the side and wave at you. But I'm not doing all that crazy stuff. But I think certain scenarios create like a fork in the road for you, right? Like each time you get a decision point and you get to say, I'm either going to quit or I'm going to keep going.

And then you get to the next hard thing. I'm either going to quit or I'm going to keep going. And then you get to the next hard thing. And then eventually the hard things don't seem that hard because you've already moved mountains to get to where you were. Right. So people always ask me, what's the hardest thing you did? I said getting to the age of 17, right? Getting just surviving was the hardest thing I ever did. right. I was a kid and our house got shot up during a drive-by on Christmas night on Christmas

Eve going into Christmas morning. And I can still remember the bullets how they feel to fly across your head, right? And I stood up and my cousin pulled me down to get on the floor and the bullets are flying. I can feel the heat of the bullet going across my head. And so people ask me, what's the hardest thing you've done? Just surviving to that point. So what I do now, it's it's cake right it's it's not hard right it's not like someone's trying to kill me right is it bad like does debt suck oh it sucks every single time but the reality is is it going to is it going to kill you right if they don't get their money today is it going to kill you right the reality that people don't see is that whenever you're in debt you

people just want some money, right? So just ask them, how much can I pay you that you stop bothering me for a little bit? And that will take some of the stress off of you, right? And I think we need to sort of understand that everything can be in negotiation. You can figure things out. And just whatever. Like think about just a real estate in general, right? If you have a tenant that is not, the only time you're really going to get upset is if they're paying zero. right you can understand if they hit a rough patch and you're like hey you know this month i can only pay you this well they're paying you something right it may not be all of it but if they can at least cover majority of your expenses you're okay it's not like you're going to be super upset and then they're upfront with you about it right so then now you're like you know what actually i kind of like this tenant

they don't really give me a hard time and they're very honest i'm going to work with this tenant the ones that you have a problem with and you're going to have a problem with are the people who won't say anything and they're ashamed of that debt and they're like, well, I just can't pay you because you, guess what, you already have money you own in this house. Like that, that's not bad. That's not good mentality either, right? So like, but that's part of financial literacy and understanding like, you know, there's good debt, there's bad debt. And debt happens to us all, right? I'm not debt free. I'll tell you that 100%, not debt free. I still have student loans. But I also know in one year I can sign a contract that's either that pays me 120 grand right on the spot or I can go negotiate a contract with someone else to pay off my student loans right away.

So I don't really care to be honest because I don't worry about what the public service loan forgiveness is happening because I don't bank on someone else to come save me. I'd never had that. I'll save myself. Oh, I like that. I think that is a good place to end the bulk of our show. But David, we're not done yet. We still have our famous four. Are you ready? Yep.

Okay. What is your favorite finance book? Intelligent Investor. Ooh, Benjamin Graham? Benjamin Graham. Benjamin Graham. Nice. That book I come back to, it sits by me.

It's like my Bible. It's always near somewhere near me. that is that book I read all the time. What was your biggest money mistake? Man, I made a lot of my biggest money mistake. There's a one A and one B. So the biggest one I made was the credit cards, right? Because when I got at a Naval Academy, I had all that credit card debt.

I had no idea what credit was, like your credit score, and I had a 520 credit score and couldn't get an apartment. Like, that was really terrible, right? So that's one. Two was not understanding what a car meant to me and buying the wrong cars, right? So I bought a certified pre-owned Volvo coming out of Naval Academy because I was told that I couldn't afford a BMW and I need to be sensible. And then that car, I spent, got a car loan. It was $18,000.

I put another $12,000 into that car because of issues that had with it, right? And that was a money pit for me. So then I was like, well, and then I got rid of the car a couple of years later. I was like, looking back, I'm like, I don't really keep cars. Why am I doing this? I'm just going to lease them because guess what? They're new every single time. They should have low maintenance issues.

And I shouldn't have to be sinking money into it. It's a fixed cost for me now. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Invest in your present and then invest in your future. Keep both of those things in mind. Investing in your present is doing things that bring you immediate value back. Right. So like don't go skimp on that meal that gives actually gives you enjoyment if you love food, right? Actually go pay for that. Save in other places, right? And that's how you sort of keep that balance. And making sure that you live in a place that you're comfortable with,

that you buy the things that you want that breathe you joy and then save in other places. And then investing in your future is things like, don't be afraid. Yeah, student loans suck, but don't be afraid of them, right? Because if it turns out that student loan is your only way to leverage yourself and leverage your talent and time to get to a place that's going to have an enormous surrounding return, right? If your parents can't afford to pay for you to go to college, but guess what, you're smart enough to go to college and go get that master's degree in computer science, engineering, whatever, go get that MBA. Guess what?

And your salary coming out is in the six figures. That thing is going to return and pay dividends later in the future because now you have an extreme earning potential that you weren't counting on. What's your favorite joke to tell up parties? Man, I'm more of a like a situational joker. You know what I mean? Like I need like to set up from other people. I literally memorize zero jokes.

And I just, I've got to. I personally, I'll listen to other people talk and then I'm like, I'll crack a joke off of that. But I'm not the, I'm not Kevin Hartman and anything like that. I can't do that. I've got to. Why do most surgeons, or I'm sorry, how do most surgeons get so wealthy? I don't know that one.

They take a cut after every successful surgery. That is a true dad joke. That is a true. dad joke. Absolutely. I got to tell that one to my kids. I can't remember from that aspect. And yeah, I got to tell that one to my kids. I'm looking for more surgeon dad jokes. Why did the string make a visit to the surgeon? He felt a knot in his stomach. See, those are quality dad jokes, right? Because dad jokes aren't supposed to be good. They're supposed to be terrible. So they're quality dad jokes.

Yeah. Those are terrible. Okay. So I initially connected with you on Twitter where you are Surgify, S-U-R-G-I-F-I, right? Where else? Someone sits on that handle since 2012. And so I'm Phi-S-R-G-E-R-G-E-E-E-C-E-E-C-E-E-C-E-E-C-E-E-C-E. So we will link to that in the show-Nos, but where can people find out more about you? unfortunately like if they just want to if they google my name they're going to see stuff pop up if they go to the surgify website s urg i fi dot com website and go to about they can find out a little bit more about my story i also have a video on there telling them why i started surgifying in the first place then they can see that video either on uh twitter or they can

see the video on the website i don't hang out on i have an instagram account and really hang out on there. I like interacting with people, and Twitter is like the way that I can interact with as many people and have as many conversations as possible. I like Twitter, too, because I can use it on my computer instead of my phone, which I have terrible eyes.

Yeah, I'm not a camera, Instagram, selfie person. It's not my thing. Yeah. Well, David, I really appreciate you taking the time out of cutting up robots to come chat with us. This was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed meeting you, and I really enjoyed our conversation today.

So thank you so much for your time. Hey, thank you. And we'll talk to you soon. Okay, that was Dr. David Roney from Surgify.com. I love his story. I hate parts of his story. And I am so admiring of his never give up, never quit, always move forward attitude. I think that is probably the number one reason for his success.

The amount of drive that. he has just sort of internally to keep pushing harder. Well, it's not only impressive, it kind of makes me feel like I'm a little too lazy. And it's, it's so inspiring to see what he's been able to accomplish given, you know, setback after setback. And it's absolutely amazing. Yeah, I really, really, really am excited for what the future holds for him. I'm super excited for that affordable housing idea that he has. And I can't wait to see him bring that to success. just like everything else he's done has been successful. I have no doubt that he will also succeed in that as well.

This episode did run a little bit long. So, Doug, I think that we should get out of here. Let's get out of here. From episode 273 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, he is Doug Cunnington, and I am Indy Jensen saying got a bolt, cult.