BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 345: Divorced and $250K in Debt to Financially Free in 10 Years

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

We know financial freedom is possible for those in their 20s and 30s, just starting their careers, without children and serious financial obligations. But what about those getting started on their journey in their 40s and 50s? What about the stories of those who’ve had lifelong debt, went through a financially destructive divorce, or didn’t know early retirement was an option? Monica Scudieri, author of Grab Your Slice of Financial Independence, wasn’t financially free until recently. For the past decade, she’s been working hard to pay off a quarter of a million dollars in debt, get her investments in line, and rebuild a life that was financially set back thanks to divorce. While she sounds like a veteran money expert, Monica wasn’t always this frugal. She remembers spending 90% of her paycheck as soon as she got paid, and her ex-husband did very much the same. After her divorce, Monica was left with an astonishing amount of debt, very few assets, and close to no cash. She worked hard for the next decade digging herself out of debt, building up a cash-flowing rental property portfolio, and financially optimizing her life in every way she could. Now, she’s financially free, coaching others on how they can do the same! In This Episode We Cover Financial red flags to look out for when dating (and what to do if you spot them) Budgeting, tracking your expenses, and the smarter way to ensure you’re not overspending  Having the “money conversation” with your partner or spouse before it’s too late Downsizing and ignoring lifestyle creep even if your partner can’t Building a small rental property portfolio and the huge benefits of investing early Side hustles and doing whatever you can to get out of consumer debt Why the Honda Civic remains the FIRE movement’s vehicle of choice And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Mindy's Twitter Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Subscribe to The “On The Market” YouTube Channel Listen to The “On The Market” Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, BiggerPockets Check Out Mindy’s 2022 Live Spending Tracker and Budget Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-345 Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our sponsor page! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 345, live from FiniConn 2020, where we interview Monica Scudieri from Grab Your Slice.com and talk about going from six-figure debt as a single parent to financial independence in just 10 short years. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and joining me today is the military guide, Doug Nordman from military financial independence.com. Doug, thanks for joining me today. Hi, Mindy, this is always fun at FinCondon. This is always fun. It's always lovely to see you, Doug.

Thank you. Doug and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world or want to make big time investments and assets like real estate or start your own business, we'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams and freedom. And freedom. Oh, I love that little addition, Doug. Doug is joining me today because Scott is not at Sincon. He's off.

Galivanting, should we call him lazy? He's just... He's the unlaseiest person I know. I know, right? Scott is wonderful. I am the president of his fan club. I am just talking smack. Doug is stepping into Scott's shoes.

Because Doug knows Monica. And Monica. has recently written a book called Grab Your Slice of Financial Independence, where she tells her story of being in six-figure debt as a single parent all the way to financial independence in 10 short years. And I have to tell you, if a single parent in six-figure debt can become financially independent in 10 years, you can too. I don't care what your situation is. You can become financially independent too. So Monica Scudieri, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Tax season is one of the only times all

year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off

your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun?

Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow, every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed.

It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D-com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off.

Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audio book completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leaner Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parents, the Anxious Generation for parenting perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth.

Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. Let's jump right in because FinCon has a very tight time schedule for recording.

Where does your journey with money begin? So my journey actually began when I went through my divorce. And we went through the divorce. The kids were really young. I took on the debt of the marriage, the $257,000 of debt. and yes. And I went through, in the first five years, it was actually really hard because I had a temp job that ended. I was on unemployment actually for 22 months because I lost three temp jobs in the first five years. Not due to her own misconduct. No, no, it's just, you know, the economy. It was temp work.

And when you're a single parent, you're limited to, you can't drive very far to a job. You have to be nine to five because you have before and after school care. You can't do overtime. And so all of those limitations really kind of put me in a wedge of these are the certain jobs I can take. So if they wanted weekend work, night work, these are things that I could not accommodate when you have small children. So, but, you know, so the first five years were really hard. But I kept my why with my kids to reach that financial independence. I've never wanted to rely on a paycheck or child support or anything.

And so I just kept that in my forefront of my mind. And then there was an opportunity after those five years to sell the house and downsize. And then I was able to pay off the debt and put money down on my house. I was able to, I'm probably jumping ahead here, but I was able to use a HELOC off of my personal home to be able to put money down to buy my first rental property. and then from there I was able to buy two more, and then the next year I bought two more. And between that and putting money in 401K and some Roth and HSA and a bunch of other things, I realized at the of 10 years that I became financially independent and that I could quit my job.

And that in of itself was, it was a lot to take in. So I didn't quit my job right away because first of all, it was disbelief that I could do that. So I took some time to kind of figure out what I wanted to do and the direction. COVID came along and I thought, I'll just stay at work for a while longer. And then I just actually recently put my job in March and focused on the book and go from there. Yay. Okay. So let's rewind.

Yes. What year did this all start? So in North Carolina, you are required to be separated for 12 months. So it started in 2008. Yes, I know. That was an audible sigh that I hope my editors keep in because that is super annoying. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So, you know, we had to wait the 12 months and then file. And once we filed, then it went very quickly. So it was 2008, 2009 to go through that process. I can't think of a better time to have a divorce case. Absolutely. And it was kind of crazy because, you know, the house is valued at one thing. And then everything caged in.

And then it's not valued at that, but you're filing the divorce. at that. And so, you know, that's how the math worked out. But it's fine. It worked out in the end anyway. Well, yes, it worked out in the end. But let's go back to the beginning. What was your financial position before the divorce? So when we were, I guess, dating, we both worked. And so we never thought about, you know, like who thinks about saving money for retirement. You know, I mean, we had a 401K. We put very little in it. We were more going out to dinner, and we both had family in Europe, so we would travel to Europe.

We would, you know, just live life. And, you know, for me, it was, you know, I made my paycheck. And then so I would spend, like, 90% of it. And I paid all my bills. And then for, you know, their dad, it was more of a, I made my paycheck. And I can spend more because I have this credit card. And you just pay the minimum. because isn't that what everybody does?

And so there was, we never really had the money conversation. We never really talked about mindsets. And even after we got married, we still didn't have those conversations, even though there were clearly many opportunities where we should have. But we never, we never did that. And so that was just, you know, one more thing that we didn't, didn't agree on. It was the real problem with the budgeting word, too, right? You had to figure out what your bet the budget was going to be.

be, but you were you ready to talk about? For example, what was your debt? What was that made up? So when I managed the bills, I paid everything off at the end of the month. When he got married, I said, you know what? I think you need to step up and take over. He didn't really want to do that, but, you know, he did. And then about three months into it, you know, we got credit card in the mail, because that's what we used to get, right? And I opened it up. And it were thousands of dollars of debt on there, not paid and I'm like, why? What is going on? And he's like, oh, I pay the minimum. So, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I, I need to take this back because this is not working for me. I do not want to live. I mean, it's bad enough

we don't have a lot of savings, but I don't want to have debt. And so I took it back. And then I was really excited because it took me like three, four months to pay it all off. It was like, you know, maybe six thousand dollars, you know, in a short period of time. And I was, you know, and I don't know, that's a lot of money that wrecked up. So I ended up paying it all off. I was super excited and I went to him and I'm like, guess what? We have paid off all over a day. And he was kind of like, okay.

Like it really wasn't, it didn't really matter him one way or the other. So we really just had very different money mindsets. But see, that would have been the perfect opportunity to have that conversation of what are we going to do moving forward. Right. But I never said that. He never said that. We never had that conversation. So I just continued to manage the money.

Was some of the least mortgage debt or was it all consumer debt? So when we divorced, it was some mortgage debt, it was half mortgage. And then the rest of it was consumer. And we bought a, what do you call it, a townhouse? Because, you know, we live in North Carolina. So we're like, oh, everyone's going to want to come and visit and they can stay at the townhouse, which is ridiculous. A townhouse in addition to. your primary residence.

3,000 square foot house, but he had a guest room and plenty of space. It was completely ridiculous. And so, yeah, and right, which he got that. You know, I ended up paying for it. Okay, so what did he do with the money instead of paying off the credit card bills? Yes, that's a really wonderful question. That's a really good question. It's hard to know where, I mean, he just kind of,

I went out to lunch with friends and bought stuff. You know, it's one of those things where, oh, look, this is, this is really cool. I really, really want it. I need that. It'll make me happy. And then, you know, you buy it thinking it's going to make you happy. And then two weeks later, it's sitting there collecting dust because you're on to the next thing that's going to make you happy. And yeah, and that's, you know, that's where the money went.

So I think it's safe to say you did not have the money. conversation before you got married. Correct. Big mistake. Yeah. That's a big mistake. I think a lot of people make that mistake. We're not here to the review for past mistakes.

You can't go back and change them. If you've got a time machine, please call me, email me, media pick up pockets. com. I'm not going to get my phone number out, but email me, mityaubkipakins. Let me know because I have some stocks I'd like to invest in back in 1982. I'd like to reconsider some of my life decisions. Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Oh, my goodness, some life decisions I'd like to reconsider. But, you know, having the money conversation is so important. Absolutely. I didn't have the money conversation with my husband. But I also used context. Like, he used a coupon on our first date. Which is so him. Like, he's here, too, because he's in this space.

But did you and March have a conversation about money before you got married? Oh, we did. But the conversation was March showing me how I needed. to have a budget, how we needed to be able to work for it because I was that legendary college student that had money graduating from high school and managed to get rid of all of it by the end of my first year of college. I thought you walked on water when it came to money, Doug. I thought you walked on water, you got to hit rock bottom.

Tell more. Yes, exactly. When you're in the Bahamas, finishing your summer training as a midshipman in the Navy and they have an exit tax at the airport of $5 to get on a plane to go back home where you have to and you have to borrow that $5 from your best friend, that's when you know you hit rock off. But I had a wonderful time, and I know this because I can hardly remember any of it.

We need to have Marge on the show. Does she do podcast interviews? Oh, no. Okay, I now have a new goal. Yes. But this isn't the Doug show. This is the Monica show. Let's get back to Monica's story.

Did you combine finances during your marriage, Or did you keep them separate? We combined our finances. Yes. Do you think if you had kept them separate, that may have changed the outcome or was it? No, I don't think it would have. Okay. And do you think the financial situation, like, did the financial issues contribute to the divorce?

The financial issues contributed. It wasn't the main thing, but it contributed. Okay. So how did you tackle this debt? You had $257,000 of. random bet, including the mortgage on the unnecessary townhouse. Right. Well, that's all the townhouse, the mortgage, and just random other credit card and other

stuff that never mattered. So I never matters. Yeah. I mean, so when I when I had a job, I was trying to pay it down. And after about a few months of doing that and realizing that this is not going to work because it was like trying to pay down. It's like trying to shoot with a little water gun. And, you know, it's just, you're trying to paint a whole, a whole wall with like a little tiny paintbrushes. It was going to work. And so I took the debt, took the mortgage and I,

for right or wrong, but I rolled it all together to make one big mortgage and did away with the home equity line of credit and took all of the debt, just rolled it all together. My thought was, first of all, I needed to get the house in my name only. And so when I refinanced, it gave me the opportunity to take his name off the title. Oh, good move. And so it was worth it to me to do that. And it gave me a bigger mortgage payment. But I had no equity, no credit to be able to do anything.

But that does stretch the payments out over 30 years. Yes. Your home is at risk. You're using your home equity, but you now have a lower payment at a much longer time. Yes. And if you want to accelerate, you can pay off a minimum 30-year payment or you can accelerate and pay it off in short times. Yes.

And it did give me that flexibility. So it really was good when I was unemployed for five, six, seven, eight months. To make ends meet, I was, you know, I'd dog sit. I'd cook for people. I sold since we had 3,000 square foot house. I sold furniture out of the house. house. I had to borrow money from my mom, which is a very, very humbling experience when you're in your 40s. But yeah, I mean, you get very, very creative. And then so when after those first

five years, I finally had an opportunity to sell the house and downsize. I had somebody finally make an offer on the house. And that was a whole crazy situation because my realtor was telling me that you should have men's clothes in the closet. And I said, why do I need to have men? She goes, because if they see, they're going to, obviously, they're going to see children live here. They're going to see that there's only women's clothes in here. They're going to rake you over the clothes and try to take advantage

because they know you're in a vulnerable position. And I said, I'm like, who am I going to ask to say, can I borrow some of your clothes to put in my closet? I mean, so I did not take her advice. And sure enough, the one couple that came in to put an offer did break me over the coals and Nickled and dined me for every little thing. And I told my realtor, I'm like, I don't have the money to fix this laundry list of stuff. And she's like, you know what, let's fix this one thing that was like some dry rot on a window

frame. I said, okay, and she goes, the rest of stuff, it's honestly, it's just filler. They're just looking to squeeze you for everything. Yeah. And then they had, they asked for a four-week closing because, they had to sell a house that was out of state. And so they thought four weeks, they can get all their paperwork and everything.

And I'm like, fine. So I did that. But then the four weeks came. You've seen this before. I'm in it? Yes. So, well, then you'll love the finale. So at the end of the four weeks,

when we were supposed to go sign to sell the house, they had the nerve to call my realtor and say, we're missing one piece of paper. We need another week. You just move out of the house. house and we're going to move in and then we'll get you the money later. And I said, well, I said a couple of things I'm not going to say here. But thank you. We're family friendly. Yes, we can still let it out. But yes, we can still let it that out. But yeah, so I said absolutely not.

My realtor was like, absolutely not. So I left all my worldly possessions in a truck at the top of the driveway and slept in a sleeping bag. And it turned out my kids were going to see their dad because it was the first week of summer. So they were going to be. at their dad's house anyway. And then I just kind of stayed there with my two little cats and waited until paperwork cleared. And I mean, I couldn't move to my house because I couldn't get the keys because I didn't have the money to close on that house. So I was like, no, we're not doing that.

Yeah. Oh, but then in the middle of all that, this is another thing. This is in the book, actually, is that during those four weeks while we were waiting and I was trying to sell stuff, my car broke down. And so I went to my... Because of course. Of course, right, Murphy's Law. And so I went to my mechanic who's, you know, really this family run.

And he sat me down and he said, it's a money pit. You have to get rid of it and buy another car. And I'm like, I literally have no money to buy a car. And he goes, if you put money into this car, you're just throwing good money away. You really should get another car. So I got a used Honda Civic, which my daughter still drives today. Oh, yeah. Yes.

and what was crazy about it was so I was selling furniture out of the house and I had big pieces of furniture. So I had like saved up $5,000 from selling all this crap out of the house and the garage was like a gold mine. But anyway, so I sold $5,000 for that. It turned out the car that I had, even though it wasn't very good, they could sell it for parts because it was discontinued. So I got $5,000 for that. And then I was able to pull a couple thousand out of my emergency money. and I got to that car for cash. So it's still my favorite car,

even though it's, you know, it's a 2003 Honda Civic, you know, but it's still my favorite car. Those cars last a very long time. They do, they do. I currently drive a 2003 Honda Element. Oh, see? So you understand.

It goes forever. Yes. So this is your primary residence. What happened with the townhouse? Oh, he got that in the divorce. Okay, so he took that and the mortgage and all of the, the things associated with the townhouse.

Yes. Okay. Well, there was no mortgage because I had, that was part of the, um, the debt. Oh, you got the mortgage on the townhouse and he got the townhouse? Yes. And it's still a bargain. In the long run, it's a market. Absolutely.

Because I am, I am so much further ahead. Right. Yes. Absolutely. And I got the kids, which to me is worth everything. Yes. Oh. Yes.

Oh my God. I'm very blessed. I've got wonderful babies. But I mean, they're not babies anymore. you know. So you refine the house, you kind of roll everything into one great big 30-year mortgage. Yes. And you start your unemployment journey. Yes, I start this. Sorry, I'm not laughing. I sound like such a horrible person. No, no. It's what else could be thrown at you? Your car breaks down. You get the mortgage on a house that you don't get to live in and all the debt. But you get the kids. I got the kids.

And then you lose your job. And then after five years. Yeah. So how long did it take to pay off the debt? So, well, once I sold the house, I was able to pay off all of the debt through selling the house. Okay. And put down 50% on my new little house. Oh.

So I was able to open up a brand new home equity line of credit. Okay. And that home equity line of credit, I used to buy my first rental property. So what I did was I used it, you know, I'm jumping ahead a little, but I used that to buy my rental property for cash. And then I would turn around and go to the bank. And I had a pre-approved loan, which is very, very important.

I want to say, make sure all your paperwork is lined up. But I had a pre-approved loaned. And so once I bought the house for cash, I turned around, went to the bank, and then financed 80% of it paid off. 20% and then got my taxes ready and waited until the next year to buy two more. How much was this house? The five houses that I ended up ultimately buying were anywhere from 56,000 to 78,000 each. We don't see that in Hawaii.

I was going to say you buy those all day long in Hawaii, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, same. We buy those all day long. So this is invest where it makes sense to buy investment rental properties. Yes. Are these local to you? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, these are all local to me. Oh, my goodness. I'm so jealous that you have local to you properties. I mean, that's not the price they are now. No, no. No. That's 2015.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was 13, 14, and 15. It was three years. It was very, very different market for sure. So the first property, what did it need? You bought the house for cash for $0.50.

So the first one I bought for $79. $79,000. Yeah. And that needed nothing. And it needed nothing. And it needed nothing. I wanted to rent for like $12,000 a month, right? And I was renting like $850 a month. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. So that does make the 1% rule. That's the 1% rule. Yes, yes. Nice to see that happen to a rookie. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. right? I mean, you cannot make this stuff up. That's why I wrote the book. You can't make it up, but it's not as good as the true. Okay, so property two. You bought property number one. How long do you take to buy property number two? Was the next year. The next year. And that was, how much was that? That one was probably like 72. Okay. And what did it read for? They're all around 850. Okay. In the beginning, that's how they went. And how much. How much work did that would need? So then they started needing roof and HVAC, but not right away.

And so, you know, we just do some like minimal stuff to get it ready to rent out. So like painting the inside and maybe if it needed carpet, we would do stuff like that. And then as the roof started to leak, then we would put in like $5,000, $6,000 to replace the roof. And I had somebody manage the properties for me that, you know, helped walk me through the process of, you know, what it was. what it takes to. And then, you know, like, so in those three years, they all at some point needed a new roof and a new HVAC. The property that I bought for, like, it was like 56, 50, almost 52,000.

But that needed the most work. And it came with a renter that was renting it for $800. So I'm a softie. I left her there. Never really raised her rents because she's, you know, on her own. and there were health issues. I don't know. So it was definitely renting below market value.

But eventually, after three years, I had to evict her because she was a hoarding situation. It was, and there's a long story. But when she left, it needed windows inside, paint, new carpeting, new kitchen, new bathroom, new outside. There was a lot of glass, and I, you know, rent to families. And so I had to make sure that all of that was, you know, cleaned up. So that one, I mean, honestly, for the money I put into it, I almost feel like we could have torn it down and built a brand new house.

It was practically there. Yeah. I've bought that house. Yes. Yeah. How much did you put into that house? That house I put in about $45,000. Oh.

Yeah. So you still own it? Oh, yeah. And what is it worth now? Oh, now all of them are in like the $200,000, $220. Okay. Yeah. So 100 in, 95 in, and you're at 200 value, that's a fair deal.

I think so. You're replacing things like roofs in air conditioning and heating. That has a return on investment. We're not talking granite counters or co-opons. Yes. Yes. Well, it's got a bit of a return on investment. It's, but it's like you need a roof.

And you need the air conditioning. You need the air conditioning. Well, depending on where it's at. Yeah. You need air conditioning. You need HV. or H heating in most places. You don't need a heater.

Do you have a furnace in your house? No. Okay. This is my advantages of living in Hawaii is we do not have a furnace and we do not have air conditioning. So he doesn't have to pay $12,000 every 30 years. You don't want to know what my electric bill is. I know what's your electric bill is. Okay, so you've bought your first house, you've bought your second house.

And then over two years. Yeah. At year three. So, yes, the first year, I established the LLC to when I bought the properties, everything went under an LLC. So I only did the first house because that was all I was, you know, approved to buy with the bank. And so when I got my tax returns, I was lined up and ready to buy. So I bought two the second year. And yeah, yes, absolutely.

And, you know, it's funny because they're all like, they're all like close to each other. But they're all done the same three bedroom, one bathroom, little hardwood floors, little carpet in the bedroom. You know, I mean, like they're thousands square feet, more or less. And they're perfect for families. They're great for couples. I mean, it's just, and it's close to downtown area, you know. And then the third year, I actually bought the next two, number four, number five. I bought them within two weeks of each other, which was really crazy.

One of them was a Section 8. It was my first time experiencing a Section 8, which we ended up converting it. Wonderful people there. Wow. Yeah. And, yeah. And so it's, you know, I mean, it's definitely, we could do a whole show just on rental property adventures. You know, the good, the bad, you know, like some people that are like, oh, you know, landlords can be so hard.

But, you know, I think it's, it's, you know, everybody decides to run their business differently. I mean, you know, I think there's good landlords, bad landlords, there's good renters, which bad renter, you know, I mean, like, it's just, it's just, but I like knowing that I've got families in there and, you know, helping to provide people over their head and, you know. And they're taking care of the place. And they do, they do take care of the place, yeah. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye open. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investment, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year.

That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more

applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job's more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands

of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest Today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners.

They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data. And all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing.

Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent.com slash money-free. Marvel Television's Wonder Man. An eight-episode series. Now streaming on Disney Plus. A superhero remake. Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director. Action! Simon Williams, audition for Wonder Man.

I'm going to need you to sign this, assuming you don't have superpowers. I'll never work again if anyone found out. My lips are sailed. Marvel Television's Wonder Man. All eight episodes now streaming, only on Disney Plus. With all this experience, did you invest in anything else? It was strictly real estate.

Did you put money in your retirement? Accounts? Yeah. What other wealth building was there? So I, so it was 2008, you know, like everything, and like to everybody got 50% discount on their retirement funds. I didn't take the money out, even though a lot of my friends were like, no, no, take the money out.

We don't know what's going to happen. But I left it there because there wasn't a lot there to begin with. So half of not a lot is, you know, may as well leave it. But when I had temp jobs, I always signed up for the 401K. And I put, you know, it wasn't a lot. but I put a little money in there, even though there was no match, there wasn't anything to it, but so important is it was a lot of it was about building that muscle to discipline myself and invest that. Yeah.

And then the other thing was just learning how to budget. And I think, you know, when I tried budgeting in the past, my biggest takeaway, and I write about this in the book too, was not to go look at it backwards, reverse engineer. Don't just start putting numbers in and saying, okay, you have $400. to spend on groceries. Instead, and when I coach people, I tell them, let's look at what you're spending today. Don't change your spending habits. The next four weeks, just record what you spend. And it's such an eye-opening experience. And then from that, you can make your budget, what you're spending. And then think about, is this, you know, does, is it worth it spending $500 going out to eat every month? Is that 500, is it, do you remember where you ate? Did it bring you joy? And a lot

Sometimes people are like, I don't even remember, I remember spending that money. Like, did I really spend $500, $600? Where did it all go? Where did it all go? And so it's having those conversations. You know, look at your spending. That's the conversation I always have. Is my spending matching what's important to me? Is, am I putting the money where I say, you know, like the words that come out of my mouth, the kids are important, family's important, friends? Am I spending my money that way? Is that, you know? And so it's having those conversations and taking that time. But everybody got to decide for themselves where the money was being wasted. Yes. Where they wanted to do something that was more valuable to that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just really interesting conversations.

You know, I mean, some people, I had one guy. He had three gym memberships when we were talking. And, you know, and yeah, there's a lot of money for three gym members. So I was like, well, it's why? Why do you have? And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But really think about is that. Yeah.

Well, you know. It's hard to get a pickleball for it. I mean, there was some interesting reasons for it. But, you know, in the end, he decided to cancel to and take that money. And it's just, you know, it's just really just thinking about it, thinking about where your money's going. And does it make sense for your life? Well, it's the first time, too, that it's not that you're being judged. It's just the first time and a long time that you've had to reflect on that expense that you probably started on impulse a long time ago.

Never really to spend much attention to whether you use it or not. But now that you're looking at it's part of the big picture of the B word, the budget. Yeah. It becomes clear that you prefer to spend that with a business. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it is very interesting conversations because, you know, what's important for one person, not necessarily the same for another, you know.

Like, you know, Mindy, maybe you're not a three-jib membership person. You know. How could you tell? But, you know, I mean, you know, so it's like everybody's got their thing that's, you know, they want to keep. Yes. Everybody does have their thing they want to keep. And what does Paula Pantzay?

You can afford anything. You can't afford everything. Yes. I am a huge proponent of just tracking your spending when you first start out. Because, yeah, you're absolutely right. If you put, oh, I'm going to spend $150 on groceries. If you have no idea how much you're spending on groceries, $150 is going to cut it. But if you have, unless you're Justin from saving Sherpa.

Unless you're growing most of your food and using coupons on pizza, yes. Justin from saving. Sherpa has some like crazy. It's like $125 a month. But he shops the sales and he's like perfect. He's a very interesting grocery story. But everybody else on the planet doesn't spend

a hundred and $125 dollars a month. So you do have to see where your money's going and that alone is so eye-opening. It is. I told the story multiple times on the show but I started track. We were like, why are we spending so much money? We don't do anything.

We have small children. and like, why is all this money leaving our wallets? Let's track our spending. So I started, like, pen on paper, writing it out. And I was going to the grocery store literally every day for one thing, but coming home with five. Or one thing and coming home with 15. And one thing and coming home with 27.

And it's no big deal. If you go to one thing and you come home with five, once a week or once a month. But when you do it every day, it ends up. And I can see those other four things. Wow. And once I, I mean, it was two weeks. I was going to track it for a whole month, but it was two weeks. And I was like, I see the problem.

I see the hole in our spending. I'm going to the grocery store twice a month. Yeah. I already said you were perfect, Doug. Thank you. I try to stretch it out. I don't like shopping. And that's the thing.

I love grocery shopping. Me too. Because I love cooking. I love eating. Yes. I love eating. And when I'm at the grocery store. Oh.

I don't just go with the list at the time I didn't. I could just wander up and down. I'm going to have two small kids. You've got to eat up a day. Right, right. Going up and down the grocery aisles. Oh, look at this interesting thing. I'll try it.

Yes. With no regard for what I'm going to do with it or the 37 other ingredients I need to make pickled pigs feed or whatever it was. I was not making that. All the things you need to use this one, you know, bottle of giraffe snod. or, you know, whatever. And what are you going to do with this stuff? I had no plan, but I would just randomly put things in my heart. So once we started tracking, it was very easy to cut down our expenses because I didn't want

to be spending $11 billion in versions. It's that one thing. Track your expenses. I'm sorry, not track your expenses. Track your spending. Yes. In real time. Yes.

There are a lot of people, and I don't want to say that there. wrong. If Doug were to track his expenses at the end of the month retroactively, that's fine because he's got it dialed in. He's been doing this for a minute. Yes. But if you're just getting started, you don't track them at the end of the month. Correct. Backwards. You track them in real time because you can't remember. Do you remember what you spent to Target last week? What did you buy? You don't remember all the little things. But when you're there, you're like, oh, it was $17 in this category and $14 in this category. And when you track it so hard, it's so helpful and eye-opening and you can make changes in the same month. Yes. When you have to look at those numbers and realize

what you're spending it on in real time. Yes. And it only takes a minute a day, right? So it really does. It really does. If you're staying on top of it, and that's a really great segue, Doug, for me to have my confession. I have been... I am not setting her up. You are not setting up. However, I have been publicly tracking my spend. I have been publicly tracking my spending for all of 2022. You can follow along at biggerpockets.com slash nindy's budget until July. And we went all the way through June and did it great. And then in July, we kind of fell off the bandwagon and it was on as we go out of the bandwagon. So now we have two months of expenses to go back and enter manually. And I have to show you my spending tracker because it is really,

really detailed because I want to know. I don't just track groceries. I track groceries and restaurants. I'm sorry, I don't track food. I track groceries. I check restaurants. I take parties. I have a pool in my backyard.

I host a lot of parties. But if I lost my job and the stock market went to zero, I would have zero parties. That's an expense I could easily get rid of. So I track it. I'm trying to open it up. Holy, my computer is not. So quickly.

This FinCon routinely crashes all the bandwidth in a hotel. Oh, my goodness. It's like a bunch of people. We need our own satellite. They just don't believe us when we tell them. We do need our own satellite. Talk for president. 2,000 nerds together talking about money.

That's a lot of bandwidth. With the computer, with everybody with the computer. And yeah, they're just opening it up. And everybody's opening up everything all at once. For real? Like, okay, my guys edit this out. This is so awful. It's supposed to just come right up.

Come on. But this is populated by an app on my phone, a Google form that is on my phone. And I have it with me. Whatever I spend, I open it up. I type it the date, how much I spent, what I spent it on into the category, and where I spent it. And that is enough for me. I have pre-populated categories. And that's enough for me to know.

where I'm going. I really like the taste of alcohol. I go to tap rooms a lot. There's a lot of tap rooms in my city. But I also will, like, I have parties at my house. So I might go to the liquor store and buy some alcohol too. Those are in different categories because liquor at, like in bulk at the at the liquor store is a different, like it's not retail prices. I mean, it is, but it isn't. Do you see this? The red categories are where I go, um, where I went over. in my spending. But every month I learn, well, I don't learn. You learn you don't like to look at red. I don't like to look at red. Not that you can tell as I miss in every single month in my

grocery budget. But it's a learning experience. And I know, hey, I'd love to spend $400 a month on groceries, not going to happen. Yeah. So if it's not going to happen, I need to adjust my budget. Yes. And if that has to go up, something else has to come down. where can I cut? Oh, alcohol is real easy to cut. Tap rooms, super easy to cut. I can have people over at my house. It's like $7 a beer to go to the tap room.

It's like $14 a six-pack to go to the grocery store and buy it and bring it over to my house. That's cheaper. Let's everybody come over to my house and have a big party. But it's not just that. You've learned that beer is an essential party of life and you're only going to negotiate how much you spend for it, not whether you're going to have it at all. Exactly. And you're willing to work for that expense.

It has value and it brings that value to your life. You're willing to work to buy those groceries? No, but you know, I mean, my clothing budget is like $100. Yes. Because I do not care. I see, and that's how I am because I'm a big foodie too. I mean, unfortunately not all food loves me, but I love all food, you know. But I mean, that's where I spend my money.

And to your point about, you know, going to the grocery store and you're like, oh, I don't know what this is, but this looks really cool. I want to try what this is. And sadly, my daughter is the same way. She loves trying, trying food. And so what I learned, though, is that if I find myself getting a little, you know, out of hand with the food budget, we have this thing where I'm like, I'm not going to the grocery store for another week or two weeks. We have to shop inside whatever's in the pantry and the fridge. We have to get creative now. And that forces us to, like, really whittled it down, the freezer and just kind of.

So it gets a little. creative toward the end of those two weeks. But it's a good way to kind of remember, like, well, listen, we bought this. Before it expires, let's eat that. Let's not, you know. But that's valuable to you. You're willing to spend that life energy for that money to buy that thing that brings you so much pleasure. So you're going to find a way to afford that, whether you have to cut the spending a bunch of other categories or whether you're going to go out and work extra hours or find a way to get promotions and salary boosts. True. But I mean, I'm not a close person, you know, I don't, don't look at me. Yeah, I don't, I don't,

I don't, you know, I don't drink a lot. I don't, you know, I'm not big on my hair. I mean, like I'm just, you know, a lot of things that, but food to me is like, food's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like that's your time that people come together, you, you know, and it's, it's very social and it's the experience that goes with it. And to me, yes, and to me that is, that's everything. That's everything. Okay. So, that was a fun little detour. Let's get back on track. After you had five properties, what was it?

When did it click that you were financially? So it's what actually was after, you know, I was buying the properties after that I started to learn about the fire movement. It was, you know, toward the tail end of that journey. And it started to click. I started to read about it and I understood that, you know, you don't have to wait until you're in your 60s or 70s to retire. You could do it sooner. And so then it became kind of a game to see, well, you know, where am I with this? And what does that look like? And how do I, you know, have income stream to know that I can be financially independent? And so when I looked at the properties, so they were all fixer uppers. And so I decided that when the big things were done, like the last one I did was, that, you know, $45, some on $1,000 to get that one fixer up or done. That was the last one I did.

So I knew that when I had all of those done, I thought, okay, I can be ready to quit. And then I finished them, and I thought, I'm not ready. And so I kind of fell into that trap of, you know, it's like Doug would say and Jay Money, We both say, you know, like, don't, don't be the, you know, don't wait three, four, five, six years saying, oh, next year. Next year. Just, just one more year. Just one more year. And I was starting to do that, that just one more year.

But, I mean, you know, COVID came along. And I think that for me, it wasn't the money, but it was the realization that that that journey, that 10 years, that was just step one. and that I spent so much time trying to figure out how was I going to replace that paycheck that I never, you know, thought about what was I going to do after. And so that took a little bit of time, you know, my mom was got sick and she ended up passing, and that took a little bit of a toll. And so for me it was just a little bit of just trying to, you know, take a breath. and take a step back and figure out where do I go from here.

At this point, though, you had plenty of cash flow from the rent properties. Yeah. And it's probably going up with market rents and keeping up and you're not feeling like you're losing out with tenants or expenses. Correct. And you also had been investing in your 401k or retirement accounts. So you put together a plan for financial accounts, knowing that you might earn another dollar or two in your life after reaching financial accounts. Yes, absolutely. But I mean, I knew that I could, whether I earned a dollar or two or not, that, you know, my expenses are covered every month.

I still take a vacation or two and, you know, and everything was going to be fine. It all fits. Yeah, it all fits, you know. But that still didn't get me to winning. Just one more year is the most powerful influence in personal finance and it keeps you from making the leap. Yes. But on the other hand, now that you've made the leap, you're not laying awake at night wondering if you've overlooked some horrible mistake or some. incredible expense that you've got margin.

Yes. And I did. Yeah, bazillions, yes. And bazillions, yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because, you know, like, so when I quit, I think it was the first four weeks that I thought, what did I do? I need to go find a job because it was a bit surreal.

But now I'm like, best decision ever. Best decision ever. I love not having my nine to five. I mean, I loved my teams and what I did, but I love this more. I should point out at this point that once she was no longer going to work, she was trying to replicate that pace and the deadline pressure and everything else about her old life in her new life. And somebody had to step in and suggest that maybe she should slow down a little bit, space it out. It's okay to take a break.

Yes. How did you convince her? Because I'm married to her. So, no, I believe the words where you don't have to, do everything in the first three months of quitting your day job. And but it's, you know, you're so ingrained in the long hours and the working and the drive that it doesn't turn off because you quit your job on a Friday and Monday comes around and you're kind of like, and I still, I literally Monday went downstairs.

Same time I always do. Get up at six. I was on my, you know, laptop by 7 a.m. I had my coffee, you know, and I was like looking at. emails and thinking about, okay, so what am I going to do today? And, you know, I'll work on the book. That was a big thing. That's what writes the book. Yes. Daily habit. The daily habit. Yeah. And, you know, so you know, I've still in that. So that's like, that's a work in progress. That's definitely, because it's only been, you know, it's, I'd only been, what, six months.

So. Only. Yeah. It, it is a work in progress. It's only been five years for my husband. Yeah. And he's still, thanks it out every day. Yes. It's now it's, he says, it's his, he says, it's his time so he can't afford to waste it. I'm like, you know, it's okay to enjoy doing nothing. It's okay to not be productive. It's okay to sit there and read a book that you enjoy and that doesn't teach you something. It's totally okay. And then he's like, oh, okay, I'll read Stephen King's It in bed. I'm like, really the one book that I had to put down and never, ever, ever pick up again. That's the book you choose to read. I share your concerns. Yes.

Face down. Don't ever leave that book face up in the bedroom. Okay, sorry. In terms of your rental property income, how does that compare to what your W-2 is bringing in? So the rental property income, it covers not everything, but it covers just over half of my monthly expenses. Okay. And then I have... This is the net rental income after you've paid all the expenses of maintaining repair. property and now you've got the actual mortgage. Cash flow to work with.

So, okay, over half of your living expenses. Yeah, it's just over half. Okay. And then I have some, you know, my, I just, you know, in a savings account, I have cash there. And you're drawing down your assets, perhaps, maybe not at a rate that's going to bankrupt you in five years, but you're using a 40% safer draw, or something else that makes you comfortable to figure out.

I think right now it's a little less because the rental, is doing well. Right. And so I don't need to. You've got a newty income for rental property. So you can afford to have a much more sustainable withdrawal. Yes. Yeah. So do plans for more rental properties?

You know, I do and I don't. I don't know. Not really. I mean, there are a couple of things I was looking at, like syndication that looks really interesting. So I've been having some of those conversations. But nothing concrete. I think right now I'm really.

excited about, you know, just the book and sharing my story and helping other single parents out there know that it's hard when you've got little kids and you're on your own. But I really, you know, I wish I had a book. I wish I had, you know, people to lean on. And then that's, that's really my focus right now is serving and giving back. She's been to two financial conferences since she stopped sharing up her work. And despite the idea that she's surrounded by real estate investor. She's held firm. She has not bought anything good. Actually, my third one. This is the third one. Yes, because no money, no money was the first one. Okay. Yes. And then it was Camp Phi. And then I came to Finn Park. But it's my last one for the year. But I've already signed up

for another one in March. But I love it. I love it. It's wonderful. Okay, so what is next for you besides a whole year's full of Camp Fies and Fight for conferences. I recommend Camp Phi. It's wonderful. Yes, I is. I love it. Yeah, no, it is.

It's a lot of fun. So what's next? So I started blogging on the piece of the pie, but I put that on hold to write the book. It's now that the book is out, I'm going to spend the rest of the year. I hired somebody to help me rebrand because I learned that WordPress is not my forte. and I'm better at giving the content and not good at making it look pretty. So I'll be rebranding that. I'm looking to build a community with the blogs.

So it would be blog directions on how you can build your slice of, you know, how you can grab your slice and make your own pie pie. And then the third section I want it to be for a community where other financial coaches can come and showcase some of their case studies and people that they've worked with. And yeah, and so that when people come to the site, they can go, oh, I relate to this story. And, oh, look, Tina, who's the financial coach, that's her. She gets me.

And so I can call Tina. And I want to build that community on the site. And so that's something that the rebranding, that would be part of this year. The site will be ready. I think January is a fair timeline. And then I also am going to turn my book into an audio book, which will be ready probably February time. And then after that, I think people learn differently. And so I want to do a workbook and online classes so that, you know, if you can read the book and follow the directions there and hear my story,

or you can have your own workbook and make your own pie pie or have online classes. So, yeah, that's the near future. I don't think there's enough workbooks out there. I think there's books and then they don't really give you. Like some people, you're right, they learn differently and then go in and you actually write it out. You see it and you see the steps. Oh, that makes sense in a way that reading it maybe didn't. Yeah.

I really loved the workbook that we did for First to a Million where we teach kids about money by Dan Shakes. He did a workbook. I actually, I like the workbook almost more than the book itself. It's just so. helpful to kids who are already filling out stuff at school all the time. Yes. It's such an natural progression. Yeah.

Okay. Well, tell people, Monica, where they can find out more about you. So I have a site called Grab Your Slice.com, and you can hear more about, you know, about me, the author. You can see where you can buy the book, which is anywhere books are sold. And, yeah, and then just follow along because there's a link back to the blog of the piece of the pie, and you'll see the progression and the rebranding and where we go. it'll be an exciting.

2023 is going to be very exciting. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And I've got a few other projects that I've got once I get past this that are very exciting. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're retired. Yeah, no, I know. She has projects. They just don't have deadlines yet.

I have to meet your husband because I'm like, oh, it's like my brother. Okay, well, he's just down the road. So we'll go as soon as we wrap this up, I'll go introduce you to you. Okay, well, huge thanks to the National Endowment for Financial Education for sponsoring the podcasting booth at FinCon 22 in kind of stormy Orlando, Florida. I'm surprised we haven't been interrupted by thunder and lightning. Yeah. Well, there was some thunder earlier today.

But yeah, I'm glad the power stayed on the whole time we were recording. From episode 345 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, he is the military guide, Doug Nordman, from military financial independence.com. Doug, tell us what's going on over there. I'm updating the original version of the military guide, which is now 11 years old. The book is largely evergreen. There's a few things that the military has changed in personal finances over the last decade that I'll update. Once that's done, I'll start working on my third book.

And this will be about living your financial independence. And I've been beta testing some of the concepts on some of the people that I've come in contact with. I love it. I love it. Okay, Doug, thank you so much for stepping into Scott's shoes. today while he gallivance around. I'm not going to make a joke about tough shoes to fill, but I will say that I'm happy to show up whenever you need help.

Like the military always does. There you go. We like that stepping in and taking care of things. Okay. So he is Doug Nordman and I am Mindy Jensen saying chop, chop, chop, lollip.