BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 346: Finance Friday: How Sabbaticals Make You Happier, Healthier, and Wealthier

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

Taking a sabbatical from work requires a few things: time, money, and the willpower to do some soul-searching. Most people think that they can’t take any more than two weeks of the year off work. They rack up excuses, blaming timing, too many projects, and everything in between. But what if taking a sabbatical, gap year, or any other type of long-ish break was the key to building wealth faster and being a happier, healthier you? Today’s guest Cindy, left a high-paid, stable job to take some much-needed time off. And after doing so, she’s urging you to do the same. Cindy, like most Americans, hasn’t taken time off since starting her working career. Besides the regular vacations and holidays, there never seemed like a good time for Cindy to take a break, recollect, and ask herself what she truly wanted. After taking a mini-sabbatical, she built up the courage to leave her job and hop off the grid for a bit. Surprisingly, Cindy’s net worth didn’t dwindle during her time off—it grew! This positive push from the markets and her newfound clarity allowed her to discover new passions, try self-employment, and later snag a much better job while continuing to work towards early retirement. If you’ve been debating taking some time off, this episode will give you all the tips you need to do so! In This Episode We Cover Building your list of “alternative careers” to widen your job possibilities Branching out far beyond your job title and doing more than what your degree is in How to sample a sabbatical to see whether or not you could handle the real thing Quitting your job during turbulent times and how to temporarily prepare for life without work Funding life with a job and what to do before you quit Planning out your passions so your sabbatical isn’t put to waste How employers look at applicants who just took a sabbatical (it’s not what you think!) And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Mindy's Twitter David on BiggerPockets David’s Site From Military to Millionaire Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Subscribe to The “On The Market” YouTube Channel Listen to The “On The Market” Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, BiggerPockets Check Out Mindy’s 2022 Live Spending Tracker and Budget Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money- Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our sponsor page! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Cindy and talk about sabbaticals. And yes, it will take more spending more money on these experiences, whether it's travel or deep sea fishing or whatnot. But I had never been so happy in life. Having these experiences actually has, it's almost like investing yourself and pays way more dividends than if you had just like saved that money and didn't go out and take that travel or explore that. interest. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and joining me today is my military millionaire co-host, David Perrae. What's up, everybody? David and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting.

Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business. We'll help you reach your financial goals. get money out of the way so that you can launch yourself towards your dreams. David, I am super excited to bring in Cindy today. She and I met at Camp Mustache earlier this year, and she had a really interesting presentation about sabbaticals. And I thought, you know what? I need to introduce her to my listeners.

And I need to share with them her story about taking a sabbatical because it changed her life. I have known several people who have taken sabbaticals that have also changed their lives. And what a great concept. Take a little mini break. Take a long break and reevaluate what's going on in your life and see which direction you want to take your life, even if you haven't reached financial independence yet. Yeah. I definitely think there's something to be said for that. In fact, I guess if you were to, I guess if I think about it, right, technically I took a mini

sabbatical with my trip out of the country last month I was gone for three and a half weeks, right? I don't know that I'd really consider that a sabbatical, especially since I work for myself, but it was a lot of fun and much needed, so. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your

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I met Cindy at Camp Mustache this year and was blown away by her presentation about sabbaticals. In 2019, while speaking with a friend who's an executive coach, she was given the assignment of a career audit to come up with 100 ideas, for alternative careers, which led to an aha moment. She'd been aware of the concept of sabbaticals for several years, but this exercise brought it back to the forefront of her mind. Cindy, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Thanks so much, Mindy. I'm excited to be here. Let's talk about this aha moment. What led you to even start talking to your friend about alternative careers? Well, I had been on the corporate rap race for a while since graduating from business school and just working my way up, working from company to company, moving around the country for these jobs. And after, I guess, about eight, nine years, ten years, I just was super kind of burnt out and

just ready for a break. And, you know, things been going on at work where I was just burnt out. And when I was talking with my friend who'd been a colleague at a prior company, she suggested that we do a bunch of career coaching exercises. She'd been a friend who decided to be an executive coach. So she insisted on leading me through these exercises. And one of them was the career audit, which turned out to be more of a career life audit, and which I did come up with 100 different ideas for alternative careers.

And they definitely span the gamut from more of the traditional marketing path we've been on, being a chief marketing officer, to opening an Airbnb as an eco resort, to working with dogs and conservation efforts. So really, the first 20 or so was super easy to come up with. And then as we got through more and more of the ideas, like it was really hard to get to 70 to 100. But the concept of this exercise is like design thinking, you come up with 100 ideas on post-its, then you organize them into different themes, and then you start formulating a plan as to how to explore these ideas. So what really showed me was that I'm much more than just my traditional career as a marketer. Like I have all these different ideas and interests and hobbies,

and why not try to explore some of those ideas? And like you said, Mindy, I did have the concept of sabbaticals for many, many years, just never had the courage to really execute on them. Like, he'd even written a plan in 2018. This is the day I'm going to hit. This is when I take the sabbatical. And then, you know, it's so hard to get over the inertia and the fear. And with this exercise, it made me realize, yes, I have a lot I could do on a sabbatical.

And really, I should start thinking more seriously about it. and maybe even, like, publicly committing to this idea of a sabbatical so that I'd actually carry it through. I think that's the power of the, like, coming up with 100, right? So I've had executive coach kind of walk through that before. And really with any list, right? It's very easy to say, like, let me come up with 10 ideas for, you know, ways to generate revenue in my business or 10 reasons I love my spouse or 10 reasons I want to lose weight or 10 reasons. like surface those are all super surface level it's not till you get past 20 30 40 that you really start digging into creative things or generating like no matter how ridiculous and that's why when

they talk about like planning your your vision or what you want your life to look like that you get into like 60 70 80 and you're like I can't come up with anything okay I want I don't know a bagati private jet and you just start writing crazy things down down that when you finally look at your list, you realize like, well, thing one through 10 were like, I'd like to own a house, you know? Well, that's not really a vision that's going to, like, that doesn't necessarily get you going, right? So it's, yeah, I like, I like the idea of 100, like the career exercise and things where you have to like sit down and write down like a list of 100. Like, that really challenges your creativity. Yeah, I think at the beginning, it's, you kind of just throw out ideas that

or what society expects of you or what has been the traditional path. So you had to get really creative to really think about what you truly care about. That's not more evident. I simultaneously love and hate the 100 list because, yeah, it's super easy for like 17. And then 97, you're like, oh, what is another thing that I could do? What is another thing that I could do? And you come up with that and you're like, oh, I already did that for number 35. or, you know, it gets really, really hard.

Did you get all the way to 100? I did. I was definitely struggling towards the end, but you know what? I don't like to give up. And so I'm going to keep going until I get there. Yeah, definitely some of them like, oh, that's a little stretch when I look at it now. But I think it's the exercise of getting to those themes that becomes really powerful. So at Camp Mustache, somebody came up to me a little bit later, like,

right after your presentation and asked me about what I do. And, you know, how could they do this too? And I'm like, well, how would you do it? Write down 100 ideas that you have. I took it and I threw it right back at it right away. I love this idea so much. I said just a moment ago that I love it and hate it. I really love it. But it is really, really hard. How long did it take you to come up with this 100 list? I think technically the exercise is supposed to take like an hour or two. It probably did take me a little bit longer. An hour? Oh my goodness. I would think like a week or a month. I can't think of like 10 right now. Yeah. Maybe it's like one of those things where you're like if you overthink it, then you're just like manufacturing answers that aren't really reflective of who you are. Oh, that's a good point. The last time I had one of those lists, it was like three or four days and I don't think I got to offer.

I think the concept is good. If you don't get to 100, if you get to 87 or 42, you're still thinking past the initial, you know, five easy ones. So what was your financial position in 2019 when you were speaking to your friend who said, give me 100 ideas for careers? Yeah. So at that point, so I graduated from business school with MBA, which, as you know, probably, MBEs are pretty expensive, especially at these type of schools. And luckily for me,

when I wasn't even introduced the concept of the fire community, I was already practicing a lot of those things in which I had always lived like a more frugal life, I guess. And I didn't even know I was doing this, but I kind of geo-arbitraged by taking a role in northwest Arkansas, where a cost of living was quite low and they still paid pretty well. So I was able to pay back my loans pretty quickly by 2013. I graduated in 2011. So I had like, I guess, five, six years of building up savings, which is when I, 2018 was when I started that first written down plan of a sabbatical.

At that point, I had a 70% savings rate. and by 2019, I don't know exactly how much I had, but I was definitely in a point where I felt financially comfortable. And 2018 was when I first learned about fire, and that helped accelerate kind of my investing in index funds, which was a good time to do that. So I think for me, taking a sabbatical wasn't so much about like, Do I have money to, like, take this break? It was more the fears of, like, what's going to happen afterwards?

Will I ever find another job that I really like? You know, what, you know, is this time going to be worthwhile? By the time I decided to that 2019, when I did this exercise, came up with the more serious plan, I said, you know what, I'm going to quit in spring 2020, which, as you all know, great timing with the pandemic. Also, the low of the stock market at the time. So that was a little bit disappointing. I just like, I was so geared up to do it.

I even did things like funded my FSA to do LASIC, like knowing that I would get, you know, full benefits of leaving my job earlier in the year. And then I had publicly committed to friends and family that I was going to do this. And when the pandemic hit, it was like, well, maybe I should rethink this a little bit. Or let me just delay it and see how things go. I think at that point, my stock market profile did take a substantial hit. And again, it was more of the fear like, well, if I take time off now, like, what's going to happen if it's like a sustained, you know, bear market? Am I going to find a job?

So instead of taking the sabbatical, I had a very frank conversation with. with my then job about feeling a little bit burnt out. Like I really would like to take some time. Can I take a sabbatical? And I think I only would have had the confidence to do so because I had been preparing to take time off and had the savings and all of that. And at that point, you're kind of enjoying the mental benefits

of being able to push for what you want without fear of, say, losing your job or any kind of implications. So at that point, I went to my employer. I wasn't able to get like a long three months sabbatical or anything, but I did get about a month off of work as vacation, which actually ended up being a fantastic way to prototype a sabbatical.

So in August of 2020, I took a month off. And let me tell you, like, that month off was like, I've never felt, so alive, like in that one month in all the prior years of working, you know, just long hours, working at various jobs. And what I did with that one month was very intentional. So the first half, I took a solo road trip all the way up to Oregon. And of course, it's during COVID, so I was doing it solo and meeting friends along the way. And just taking time to, like, camp and hike in nature and kind of mentally recharge.

Along the way, I, like, met a friend who was into real estate, and that's where I got inspired to, like, start looking at real estate in the second half of my month. And that was, I just dove deep those two weeks and started looking at multifamily units in the L.A. area. And, you know, before I knew it, the month was up. And I was like, well, I still have more I want to do. So I did go back to work and, you know, really reflected, like, is this, was that break enough?

Like, is there more I wanted to do? Like, how do I tell my employer? When do I do it? And I really wanted to make sure that I left my company in a good spot. So I waited until my product launches had gone through and eventually did leave in fall 2020, October. So at that point, in terms of my financial situation, from March at the low of the stock market to October 2020, my net worth had gone up like, I don't know, was it like 20, 30%. So I actually felt comfortable, even more comfortable, like just leaving my job without like necessarily like side gigs or anything to supplement that. income. Because I think, you know, seeing that, you just realize if you stay the course,

like, like, you don't have that financial fear as much anymore. So let's go back. You got 30 days of vacation. Was it paid or unpaid? It was paid. Oh, that's nice. So it was like a paid sabbatical for a month. Paid sabbatical. That's the best sabbatical. Yeah, it was unexpected. I was asking for a three-month unpaid sabbatical. So. And they gave you a month paid. Okay. That's awesome. And then you came back, you finished up your product lunch, and you left. How long were you unemployed, sabbaticaling in October of 2020? So I told myself, like, I would love to take a year off. And, you know, and as I started the sabbatical, I realized, yes, that actually might be a good time frame because the first two months,

you know, after just being on the grind for so many years, it took me a long time to, like, just decompress and there are definitely days of just Netflix, things like that. And I did deal with like, well, this feels really different. Am I making the most of my time feeling guilty about not like doing some stuff? I actually, I think during that time went to my first campfire or maybe it was my second campfire. But when the new year rolled around, and I think maybe maybe just the way the job market was, surprisingly, I started getting outreached on job opportunities. So during this time, I did, I kind of structured my sabbatical in kind of three buckets

based on kind of the thought I had done prior with the 100 jobs exercise and other things. So really, how do you recharge in the soul? So for me, that meant creative projects. That was a theme that came up in the 100 jobs. Second is kind of the physical bucket. So outdoor pursuits and part of that is I do enjoy the outdoors, but also it's still the pandemic. So more limited to like deep sea fishing and hiking and camping, things like that. And then the third bucket was work, which is the alternative career prototyping.

So I went back to that list and, you know, explored things like, like I said, I explored real estate during that month off. I did end up, you know, looking at various multifamily properties. It didn't actually end up. I didn't actually close on those prospects, but it was still a good learning exercise. I also looked at, you know, what would be like to be a content creator. I was, like I mentioned, I'm in marketing, so a lot of times I do, a lot of stuff like creating a website and all of that, but more from a strategic. level and working with agency. So I wanted to see what was like to actually create something

myself. So one of the hobbies I got really deep into was deep sea fishing. And so I created a fishing blogging website, Galfish to Fire. And it was a way for me, the prototype, like what would be like to be creative making a website, writing content, which is quite difficult. So the utmost respect to you all. And so along those lines, I was just going through. through all of this and February, March, came around in these jobs outreach and I'm like, I'm not exactly ready to go back to a traditional job yet, but this is a way for me to just explore different careers. And there were two job opportunities I ended up interviewing for in the next few months. In the middle of all that, I actually picked up a gig as a consultant

unexpectedly and also prototype what it would be like to work for myself. doing marketing consulting with a furniture company, which helped me prototype what interior design and exploring that side of things would be like. So anyways, long story short, I got these job interviews. I ended up getting two offers, to my surprise. And I think part of that is both fantastic jobs, both felt like dream jobs. But I don't think I could have interviewed well at those jobs had I not. been taking that sabbatical. I was just so mentally worn out. If I was interviewing for those jobs

while at my last job, it probably, I probably would not have been able to get both offers. So, then came this agonizing job decision. The rows are completely opposite and ended up taking one and pushed out the job date, a start date to July. And so all of all, my sabbatical lasted nine months, although I felt like it was shorter because these interviews included interview projects, and I was also doing consulting. So I could not have anticipated or predicted the way the sabbatical went, but I think it was like the best possible sabbatical I could have ever hoped for. Well, I think that's interesting.

You can't predict the way that the sabbatical is going to go. You can only roll with the punches that get thrown your way. But you said both of these felt like dream jobs. That's awesome. Oh, now I have this giant task of choosing this dream job or this dream job. Which one do I want? Like, it's not, you've set up your life in such a way that now you get to choose which amazing job you want instead of being stuck at this horrible job you hate, but you have

to continue doing it because you have to put food on the table because otherwise, how are you going to eat? So that leads me into my next question. How were you funding your life during these nine months? So, you know, because I had been working for quite a while, I did have enough savings built up. And I know I'm like very privileged to be in this situation, to be able to quit my job during COVID when so many others were struggling to find a job. So I know this is very, very lucky. But I definitely spent years building up the savings and then seeing how the stock market had changed and then boosted my net worth. Like I just realized, you know, at a certain point you get to the financial journey of like

saving and investing that the income that you have from your job no longer is as impactful as like the investments you make. So even though in the nine months, I have. hadn't actually made much income, save like the little bit I made from the consulting gig. My net worth went up like a tremendous amount, maybe another 23%. I don't recall the exact numbers. But so I think it really changed my mindset in terms of like, you know, do I be like very frugal, like, I no longer do the 70% savings rate. I now, like, more like, I don't know,

ranges 30 to 50 or something. And I started realizing I want to invest in these experiences. Like, the sabbatical is also a great way to prototype what early retirement could feel like. And I realized there's just so much, like, that I wanted to explore. And, but I don't need to wait until early retirement to do some of these things. I can make time to, like, explore these hobbies and yes, it will take more, spending more money on these experiences, whether it's travel or deep sea fishing or whatnot, but it, like, I had never been so happy in life. And I think it's, you know, the sabbatical, you know, the way you do a sabbatical would be different for everyone, right? Your needs are different, but it's definitely worthwhile to take some time for

yourself and to recharge and really think about like what what would be what it would make you happy so another executive coach had taken a workshop from marshal gillsmith he had said the best thing you could do is to ask yourself every day did i do my best to be happy every day and so um sometimes at least for me it was easy to get stuck for planning in the future when sometimes in the present um having these experiences actually has um um um It's almost like investing yourself and pays way more dividends than if you had just like saved that money and didn't go out and take that travel or explore that interest. So I don't know that. I answer your question.

I kind of round to different topics. Well, that kind of leads me into. So one of the things you said, and you just kind of glazed over it at the beginning of your topic about your sabbatical that I wanted to hone in on real quick that I think is important is you said it took you a long time. to unwind and settle into the long one, right? Like there were some times with just Netflixing or whatever, but it took you a long time to actually settle into the groove of being off work. And, you know, I recently got back from a three-and-a-half-week trip, and we went to Peru and Colombia, me and some friends,

and you and I were talking before the show where we've both done the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu, which is incredibly challenging. altitude and hike and very surreal and peaceful. And then, but it, you don't realize how burnt out you are until you take that much time disconnected from the world. And,

and, and, you know, phone off or airplane mode and, and actually legitimately not working. And it is amazing how good it is for the soul to take that kind of time off. And how many ideas you have and how creative. you can be and how much flow you can get into. And I mean, it's like your, your, your energy levels just completely change as a person.

So just one of the, I think you kind of kind of breezed over that, but I think that's huge. So I would just encourage people that if you have an opportunity to take vacation, there's this stigma, I think, in the U.S. a lot of times about taking vacation. There's a joke, you know, in the military, right? We get 30 days of vacation a year. and it's like a running joke that like nobody wants to take it. You have to like ask permission. And it's like, oh, I don't want to be the guy who takes vacation time because like nobody wants to be that guy.

And it's like, take your vacation time. Like take it, go, travel, enjoy, you know. And so I would just encourage if you have the opportunity to travel and get away from work and actually disconnect, do it. It is so good because experiences are absolutely just, I agree. I think they're like the best thing you could pull. possibly put money into. Let's talk about getting back to work after a sabbatical. Was it always your plan to return to work afterwards?

Yeah, I think I was pretty open-minded as to what kind of role I returned back to. But I wasn't in my fire journey. I wasn't at a place where I could just like early retire or anything. I was more in the midway point. So enough where I felt comfortable taking some time off and not enough to never go back to work. Did you have any pushback from family or friends? Yeah.

So I think, you know, earlier on when I first had that idea, 2015, 2016, when I talked to friends about, they kind of, or family, they, you know, kind of laugh about. And there was a point in time where I opted for, I asked for a severance package because my role was, I was in a different part of the country, and they wanted me. me to move to another part and I decided to just leave the company altogether, a severance package. And I think I was too scared at that time to just take a little bit of time to really reflect and think about and relax and think about what my next step should be. Instead, I rushed into the next job, which ended up taking me to another part of the country where I ended up being pretty

unhappy. And I think about that time, like, you know, had I just taking a little bit of time to reflect and, you know, not panic to get another job, I might have found a role that was a better fit for me professionally and personally. Now, I do think things all happen for a reason, but that experience, I got a lot of pushback. Like, why would you opt for a severance package? Just move with the company, who cares? Like, that is almost like, it's not quite a sabbatical, but similar kind of topic where you,

you know, you're voluntarily quitting your job, so to say, but with, you know, severance. So by the time I actually took a sabbatical in 2020, like I think at that point I built off enough financial cushion. I definitely had chats with my family. And they were actually surprisingly, to me, very supportive. Because I think you can't put a price on mental health. And so I,

there was so much fear built in in the years leading up to it that when it actually happened, I didn't feel stressed from that kind of financial perspective or of any, that sort. I did feel like I had friend and family support. And at that point, there had been a few friends that had seen taking sabbaticals of their own and just had glowing reviews of their time off. Did you plan any part of your sabbatical? Did you spend time thinking about, okay, this is what I'm going to accomplish? Or was it just like, let me decompress for a long time and see what happens? Definitely more of a planner.

So like I said, like in 2018, I've written out an entire word document of all the buckets I want to do, all the tasks I want or interests I wanted to explore. But when I did take this about October 2020, though, like, it wasn't like a plan. This month I'm going to do this. Like, I think I've since learned that, yeah, like you said, let's get to like roll the punches. So things, it's amazing when you have the mind space, like what themes, what opportunities come up. So, like, it's, you know, I think it was October, when I started October, November, December,

was a lot of just like decompressing, deep sea fishing, things like that. January, I decided that I always wanted to try ceramics. So I did ceramics intensely every day for a month and soon realized, you know, I can't keep doing this. Otherwise, I'm going to accomplish any of the other things I wanted to do in sabbatical. But at the time, February rolled around was when like those interviews started. And, you know, March was when I picked the consulting gig. So it didn't quite. go like how I had planned, but again, like, it was actually all for the best.

Well, I think it's interesting that you wrote out all the things that you wanted to do. And the reason that I asked this question is, like, kind of tying into, you said it could be like a mini retirement. I have found that people who want to retire and specifically who want to retire early get to the point of retirement and then what? What am I supposed to do now? They don't plan for what to do afterwards. They make all these plans to get to retirement, but then retirement comes and they're like, oh, well, now what? And I think, you know what? I shouldn't say specifically early retirees. I should say all retirees. There's, you know, what is it, death by retirement where, you know, you retire and then

you're dead six months later because you have nothing to do and like work. was your purpose. And I think with a sabbatical, you're not going to die in six months, but like with a sabbatical, you're not going to get as much out of it. If you don't plan loosely at least what you're going to do or how you're going to take advantage of this time off, even if your plan is just, I'm going to take my kid to the park every single day, or I'm going to go to the gym every single day. I'm going to do something six days a week, or I'm going to go to take a new class. I mean, ceramics every day for a month. Sounds kind of fun, actually. I don't know that I want to do ceramics every day for a year, but every day for a month could be really

cooler. I want to write a book. So sit down and write. You have to write every day if you're going to write. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. But having a plan is so much better than just, I'm going to take some time off. There's my plan. I would actually say, yeah, planning for subalcal beyond the financial aspect, I think. equally important or more important is mentally, right? So I would say I had planned with like the prototyping with that one month off. And it's all about like living a more rich life, right? So you can start exploring some of those interests while working. What Sabatical gives you is like you no longer have to be at a certain place in time like nine hours or more for a lot of corporate workers

working at a job that doesn't fulfill some of those those interests. and hobbies and all of that that you have. So you're getting more of that time to do more of having that rich life for yourself. And then another thing that just remind me is like in August, that month I took off, I was very prescriptive because I had such a limited time to like explore all these things. So it felt like hectic and really jam-packed, but it made me feel like so alive, like I said. And it was because I was very intentional and I knew I had like, a small window of time. Whereas when I left in October, it did feel like more nebulous and not as like,

am I being productive enough, right? Which I can, I think can be a little bit of a fallacy too, because sometimes you just need time to just sit with yourself. But that is a thing like, I think with a sabbatical where you don't have a specific end date or like, you know, retirement, we don't have a specific end date. There is a danger where, you know, you think you have more and more time. So I agree. I think there is definitely valid to having some structure as well, which I ended up getting a paper planner and that, yeah, there's different techniques you can do to try to introduce more process and structure into your life. What I have found with my husband Carl is that he is, he used to be a lot more like your August sabbatical where he wanted to do all.

the things in this one short time frame. So you just do them all the time. And this is how you go all the time, which is not fun. And then now I'm trying to convince him that you can be more nebulous. And it's totally okay to just sit with yourself and think. And it is 100% valid to read a book that doesn't teach you anything. You can read. So he picks up Stephen King's It. I'm like the one book that scared me to death. No, don't leave that in the bedroom. Face up with that creepy clown on the front. Yeah, no, thank you, sir. But it's 100% okay to read a book that you enjoy that doesn't teach you a thing. Valid 100%. I agree with that. I like a minimal plan, like a loose outline even, just, hey, today I need to do three things. And here's my list of a thousand. So I need to pick three of

those things as opposed to. I would say another thing with sabbaticals is that like each sabbatical could be very different. And for me, after taking that August one and like the long one, I was like, you know, this has been so valuable that I see myself taking more in the future. And each, it doesn't have to be a certain way. Like I ended up taking another mini sabbatical for two months this past summer because I ended up changing jobs to the other job that was the dream fond jobs. The sabbatical was something that was a gift that kept giving because I ended up getting two jobs from that sabbatical. And that

sabbatical this last two months in June and July was very different from either of the previous two and that I, you know, the pandemic had like a lot like opened up travel again. So this one I focused on the things that had traditionally thought I would take on as a sabbatical in the past, whereas I was able to travel to Kavo and Iceland and take trips with friends and family. And so I think, yeah, there is no rhyme and reason to what a sabbatical could look like even for a single person. And I'm just so thankful I had the opportunity to do that travel because I think, you know, through the sabbatical and living that richer life leading up to it, Like, you just realize that the end of the day, it just comes down to people.

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people either said like, oh, I've taken sabalicles before and like, you know, got really excited or there are people who like say, I wish I could take a cell about, what did you end up doing? And it just actually became more of a talking point to connect with others than necessarily something that you kind of have to like hide and, you know, try to explain away as a negative. And again, I think, you know, mileage may vary like there are probably certain careers that better lend to where sabbaticals are more common. I wasn't a computer engineer or anything, so I did have that fear as a marketer that it's not as common that I wouldn't be able to explain. But it turned out I was able to became more of a positive than negative.

So what's next? Do you have a plan in place to be able to try to take some more sabbaticals? Or are you at a point, do you think financially where you're going to be able to just walk away soon? So I'm in a place where I've been in a year-long escar process on a new construction home in L.A., which hopefully will close in the next two months. But that will definitely slow down my fire journey, but that's intentional. I realize I wanted to sit down roots and, you know, I love L.A. And that's a good, great fit for the kind of life I want to lead and the community I have here. So, but I still think I have always, this is an arbitrary number. I always had wanted to retire 45 and crunching the numbers.

I feel like it could still get there. But I, you know, this job I'm at is awesome. It is a tech job. And it's fully remote. and like a very different type of culture from other jobs I've worked at. And I just feel that, you know, hopefully things go well. I just continue to his job until early retirement. But, well, I'll figure it out.

And, you know, even if I end up wanting to change directions or go to a different job, like I don't really have fears about taking another sabbatical at some point in these next, you know, 10 years or 8 years or so, so, yeah. Absolutely. What side of LA are you building on? South Bay. So it's in Gardena. It's more of a gentrifying neighborhood, but I love, you know, all the great food that's

around it and it's some more central location. Yeah. Not too shabby. Not too shabby. So, Cindy, do you have any bits, any last pieces of advice for people who are considering a sabbatical. Yeah, I think, you know, a sabbatical can be whatever you make out of it and what you can't, you don't know until you jump, I guess, and to have faith that, like, you know, things happen for a reason. And, you know, you can only, I think a really great step is to be able

to talk to different people who have had done sabbaticals to get a sense of, like, what their experiences are like. And each sabbatical can be so different. So, again, there's no one way. to do things. For me, a lot of the value came from that mindset shift, you know, that kind of unlocking experiences now is actually worth more than like just swirling away money and investing it necessarily. I definitely found that I was much more stressed and anxious before taking sabbaticals. It was all about striving and achievement. And now I'm much more able to find that inner peace and that equanimity. right? Like, you know, sometimes it's worth it to go slow to go fast. So, and once you, the funny

thing with anything in life, right, is like once you do it once, it becomes much easier to do it again. So like strengthening that muscle of resilience and being resourceful and being just open-minded to new experiences. And I think being new experiences like sabbatical can just pay so many more dividends and that you wouldn't even expect. So I would definitely suggest everyone to explore the concept of a sabbatical and it could be one month, like my first one, or nine months, or even two months. Like it really, you know, can be any size and any kind of experience.

But it's just so rewarding to be able to take that time and that mind space to explore something new. That's awesome. Cindy, thank you so much today for coming on and sharing your story. I think this is going to be super helpful for people who are kind of on the fence about taking time off. It seems like it doesn't really affect you career-wise, which is, you know, I'm a little older than you.

And any gap in your resume a while back would have been like the kiss of death. Oh, can you explain this gap? It took me a month to find a job. Oh, well, we can't have. hire you either then. Like, it just seems like anything was such an awful experience to try and, and, I mean, I remember fudging some numbers in my resume. Don't tell my employer. You know, in past, I would fudge my numbers because you don't want to say that you had a month off. So you'd be like, oh, from nine of 2020 to, you know, nine of 2021 is when I worked here, even though it was really like August

and you didn't get a new job until October. So it looks like there's no overlap, but maybe there was a month. I don't know. Yeah. Is that wrong to admit on a podcast? To add to that, actually, shame.

Not only did I find like a better, better jobs or better fit culturally and just like interest wise, but also like I got a higher title and higher salary. And like, you know, sometimes. you can't do that unless you like, you know, take that break, that mental break. And this is like something I've heard from other friends who've taken sabbaticals as well. They actually ended up finding better roles where they're much happier at. Well, we didn't talk about any downsides.

Did you experience any downsides with your sabbatical? I just always thought it was great. I didn't even think about maybe there was a downside. I mean, downside is like, yes, I would have loved to keep embassies. in the stock market while it was down. But you know what? Like I don't think those experiences I had in sabbatical, like, there were much, much more worthwhile than like the extra, extra money I put in for investing.

And I think, yeah, like, I think the first two months of the sabbatical, I did feel like a little bit guilty. Like, am I making the most of it? Why doesn't it feel like the August month that I had off? But, and so, yeah, that's why it's so important to like start investing in that like full life before you even get to the sabbatical or that early retirement so to say I think that's where a lot of the pitfalls would be is more like that mental mindset I love it Cindy again thank you so much for your time today

where can people find more about you um you can find me on are you still on fish to fire I am on fish to fire yeah you guys yeah you guys find me on fish to fire.com. I love that. What's the biggest fish you caught? Um, bluefin tuna in Southern California. Yeah. It's great to be able to catch your own fish. No like commercial buycatch or anything. And it's just, um, the freshest sushi we could even, um, ever have. So it's fun. Okay, Cindy, thank you so much. And we'll talk to you soon. All right. Thank you. All right, David, that was Cindy with her amazing story of, of a mini sabbatical, a longer sabbatical, and then yet another sabbatical.

I love what she had to say near the end of the show. She said, once you do it, once, it's easier to do it again. She's taken a month, a nine month, and a two-month sabbatical. I love that. I love the idea of just taking a little bit of a mini break. Now I've got to go talk to Scott. Good luck with that. Have fun.

Oh. So a couple of takeaways that I have from. this episode is the hundred list. That is such a great idea. Sit down and write out whatever it is you're thinking of, your hundred list. If you're thinking of changing careers, write down a hundred different careers that you could do. If you're thinking about going on a sabbatical, write down a hundred things that you want to do, write out a bucket list. That movie, the bucket list movie, I thought that was really cute. I think that's a really great idea to have a list of all the things that you want to do. And you keep adding to it. As you cross things off, that's, and as you

cross things off, as you add more things to it. Oh, oh, I forgot about this. I forgot about this. It's an ever expanding list of things that you want to do. But I think having these ideas, having this written down is so valuable and so important. And seeing it. in black and white can show you this is possible. But that 100 list, holy canoli, if you're struggling with something, if you're at a crossroads, if you're trying to think, what should I do next? Sit down right out, 100, right out to your 100 list and see what you get. I think for me, one of the bigger takeaways was, and this is something that really is just a big takeaway because I had this epiphany last month personally.

is just how little we realize, like how you just don't realize how burnt out you are and how much you actually need that break and how long it's going to take you to settle into that break and how important it is, right? And so taking those breaks and legitimately taking the break and actually disconnecting from your phone, putting it on airplane mode, going on a hike out in the middle of nowhere, or travel to another country or whatever that looks like for you, but actually disconnecting and going off with friends and doing something to experience a new culture or a new place or just spending time in thought or something is so important to just your well-being. And when you come back, you'll be, you know, it seems so counterintuitive because you're like, oh, oh man, I'm taking, I'm so busy.

There's no way I can afford to take time off. And I'm going to be, I'm going to get behind. And I'm not going to be able to do X, Y, Z. And I can't afford to do X, da, da, da, da, da, da. The reality is, and I would argue that you may not be afford not to, because you're just going to continue to get burned out. And you just don't realize how burnt out you are. And so I went away and whatever.

And I come back. And it's like, I have been so productive in the two weeks. I've been back. I mean, I've produced an entire course. I've revamped a business plan. I've drafted an entire like journal planner from start to finish and redrafted it and sent it to a designer and a formatter. I mean, it's been kind of crazy. The amount of stuff that I've gotten done in the two weeks. And I think I've recorded nine podcasts. I mean, it's, it's been, It's been busy. And so I would just encourage you to take those breaks and give yourself time to recharge and experience life because you don't realize how much you need it.

Aw, that was fantastic. We're going to end it right there because that was perfect. We've come to the end of this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is David Paray. David, tell them where they can find you. Every social platform at either military millionaire or from military. military two millioner. And I am Mindy Jensen saying grab that brass ring.