BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 368: Lynne Twist’s “Want Less, Obtain More” Philosophy All FI-Chasers Should Follow

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

Lynne Twist’s The Soul of Money sparked a conversation we needed to have. It didn’t make people think “how do I make more money,” instead it asked, “what world am I making with the money I have?” For decades, Lynne has beenfundraising for charities and causes around the globe. From ending world hunger to fighting for the climate, she’s made sure that her dollars are best put to use, helping the most people she can with the money she makes. Lynne’s rock-solid financial sense came from an unusual background. Her mother was raised well-off, but her family’s wealth came crashing down when they were forced to flee the home abroad they had made for themselves. Then, when Lynne’s father died, her mother became increasingly frugal, but for a good reason. Lynne’s mother wanted to use her money to give, not get, making every cent count in the budget. Later in life, Lynne and her husband lost a massive portion of their wealth, forcing her to ask the question—why pursue riches in the first place? On today’s show, we have a lively discussion on the toxic money culture that has enveloped American society, why financial independence is worth pursuing, and what those with much can do to help those with so little. Lynne’s take on wealth-building opens up a refreshing debate among early retirees and forces you to ask “why” instead of “how” when it comes to making money. Tune in, and be sure to check out Lynne’s new book, Living a Committed Life!    In This Episode We Cover The “soul” of money and the scarcity belief that is causing society’s financial anxiety  When is “enough” and how making less but giving more makes you richer The importance of self-sufficiency and why chasing financial freedom is always a worthwhile goal Learning to forgive yourself for money mistakes and why losing wealth isn’t always a bad thing Fighting world hunger and how Lynne is using her voice to tackle huge global issues Lynne’s brand new book, Living a Committed Life!  And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Mindy's Twitter Scott's Instagram Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Subscribe to The “On The Market” YouTube Channel Listen to The “On The Market” Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, BiggerPockets Check Out Mindy’s 2022 Live Spending Tracker and Budget The Soul of Money Pacha Mama Alliance The Hunger Project Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-368 Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our sponsor page! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Lynn Twist, author of The Soul of Money, Living a Committed Life, and Talk about finding freedom and fulfillment in a purpose larger than yourself. We're sort of like pray for the money-runging system that we're in. And money's innocent. Money's wonderful. I'm not against money. I love it. But the culture is just harsh, unforgiving, confusing, and misleading. And I'm all about transforming that or at least strengthening people's resolve so they're not caught in that all the time. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me, as always, is my enlightened co-host, Scott Trench. I don't know about enlightened, but I'm definitely beaming after this episode, Mindy. Lynn is fantastic. Lynn is an absolute delight. And you are going to love this episode.

Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate, or peer into the soul of money, we will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards those dreams. Scott, I am so excited to talk to Lynn Twist today. She is the author of The Soul of Money. I know so many people who credit this book as their absolute favorite book. about money, my friend. Stephanie, our producer, Kalyn Bennett, and Lynn does not disappoint. She is an absolutely wonderful person to talk to, and you are going to be delighted every minute that you listen to this show. Absolutely. Lynn has had a massive impact on the world in combating hunger with the Hunger Project and has raised hundreds of millions of dollars for various causes.

So just an incredible career and a really enlightened individual. And I think it comes to thinking about what the purpose of money is and the fact that it is a tool. It's like water and it flows. And it just amplifies who we are, what we want to do. She's also the author, in addition to the Soul of Money, of Living a Committed Life, which just released and is also a fantastic read. And Living a Committed Life can be found at soulofmoney.org. We will link to all of this in the show notes, as can all the other information about Lynn Twist and what she's up to and the ways to support her causes and help her out.

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Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leaner Stronger for Fitness, The Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being.

What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible. We want to welcome Lynn Twist to the Bigger Puckets of Money podcast. Lynn is the bestselling author of The Soul of Money. She is an activist, a coach, and a speaker.

She has also recently released a new book called Living a Committed Life. Lynn, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thank you, Mindy. I'm delighted to be here. Let's jump right into it. Lynn, can you tell us a bit about your money journey? Well, let's see. I was raised in an upper middle class family, but my mother had gone through enormous wealth and then complete devastation. So she, her father made a fortune in Korea as an engineer building for the emperor there. And then when the Japanese occupied Korea, they took away everything and ran out any foreigners and claimed that they had built the railroads and the bridges and the electricians.

system which my grandfather company had built and took away all his ownership and they had to flee. So my mom went from being in a very, very, very, very affluent family to like, and then her father died. And so she was very careful about money. My father was a musician and a very successful musician. He was a big band leader in the old big band days. So we were upper middle class, I'd say, but my mom was always terrified that it was all going to go away. So that was kind of the way I was raised. And then when my father died, her father died, then my father died, she became incredibly frugal, but also was a generous soul.

So she modeled some really beautiful money habits, but also money fears. And then I grew up that way, but really was always so great. to my mom for, you know, weathering the storm after my dad died. She was a widow for most of our childhood. And then when I went to Stanford and I met my beloved, my husband Bill Twist, who's, I'm still married to, 56 years later. Wow. And he became very success. He got an MBA. He was right away at top of his class. And then he got a very good job. And then started making a lot of money. And we got caught in that, really caught in that. We thought we needed to be somebody we weren't.

We wanted to make sure we had the right. I wanted to make sure I had the right outfits all the time, were they designery enough, or were they really designers, or were they fakes? And we thought we had to need to know all about art, and we needed to know about wine, and we needed to have a BMW at that time was the coolest car. And, you know, we couldn't just go to Yosemite with our kids. we had to go to France.

You know, we got kind of in that track of status and pretending like we had more than we had and kind of keeping up with the Joneses and being kind of yuppies. And then I took the est training, actually, which was a huge deal for me. It was like being hit over the hell with a two-by-four to realize I was living in what's called an inauthentic life.

and that I could live a much more honest and authentic life. And this really wasn't who I really am. And shortly after that, the Hunger Project was born, really, a project out of the Est world to end world hunger, founded by Buckminster Fuller and Werner Earhart. And I was kind of there at the right moment at the right time. And Bill and I, even though he was still making money, we started really dedicating ourselves, our money, our money, our, our livelihood, everything to ending world hunger, and discovered the joy and thrill of generosity and philanthropy was way more satisfying than accumulation. And then at one point, it was called Black Friday, I think it was, or Blue Monday, or

some terrible name like that. There was a big stock market dip, and the company that Bill was the president of, the stock took a big dive. It was a public company. And we lost something like, I don't know, it doesn't sound like as much as it was at the time, but it was a lot then $13 million in like a couple hours, the stock. You know, we didn't have the money, but it was in the stock. And I remember we looked at each other and we realized, you know, we're just the same as we were three hours ago. We have a wonderful family. We have a wonderful home. We love each other. We have a lot of friends. we're okay.

So it was all kind of kind of like a pipe dream anyway, a kind of a fantasy that, you know, having stock. It wasn't money, really. And it was kind of in that casino called the stock market. And we decided we were absolutely fine

and that this was probably the best thing that ever happened to us. And out of that, our capacity to make a difference with our lives and I I've become, or I was then and I am now, for the last, you know, 50 years I've been fundraising, fundraising, fundraising, fundraising, fundraising for the things I believe in. So I know that generosity and philanthropy and moving money towards the highest good is my Dharma.

It's just my Dharma. It's why I was born maybe in many ways. So I have a, you know, up and down and all around money story. But, and now we're, you know, we're probably in our senior year. years and we're you know we have to really be attentive but um i feel like money flows in it flows out it's not the purpose of life it's a wonderful part of life but it can also you can drown in it or you can um go into some sort of a drought and then think that it's all about you that you're something's wrong with you but money just flows and ebbs and it's like water it it it needs to

move. It needs, when it's moving, it purifies and creates growth and cleanses. And when it's hoarded and held and stuck, just like water, it can become toxic to you. And you can't see the forest for the trees anymore. So I've been working with people in money in some way, my whole life since I started fundraising in kindergarten. But since I wrote the soul of money, many people come to me with their money woes. And you would think it would be people who don't have any money, but a lot of the people who come to us are people who have billions and billions of dollars. And they're so anxious and upset and miserable and don't know what to do with their children

and are kind of drowning in money. So I've seen the whole picture working on hunger and poverty, working with Mother Teresa. I've seen abject, you know, horrendous poverty. I've worked with global billionaires and all of us normal folk in between. And I know money is a pariah. It's a gift. It's the source of anxiety. It's the source of joy.

But really, it's just this stuff that comes flowing around. What I'm picking up is that a cause, hunger, actually became much more important. And there's a perspective shift. that made that important. That's why you spent, you say, 50 years fundraising to combat world hunger. Why did you choose that problem to solve as opposed to malaria or something like that? What was it about that challenge that you gravitated towards? And could you highlight some of the work that you've done? Well, I've been working on ending world hunger since the Hunger Project began in 1977. and in many ways the answer to your question is I was in the right place at the right time when the hunger project was created and it swept me off my feet because as a child I'd always thought is it really possible that some kids don't have any food to eat that they don't have any water that they that they're thirsty and no one can feed them and their parents don't know what to do I mean is that really possible because I heard that that was going on but I couldn't even believe it and I remember thinking when I was little I'll do something about

that when I grow up, you know, kind of little kid. And then here I was when the hunger project was born, really when it was created, when the idea of ending world hunger. And it was both the issue itself, but also the idea of the hunger project to end world hunger, to go beyond alleviating suffering or making things just a little better, but to know that we live on a planet with enough food for everyone everywhere to have a healthy and productive life. And that it's an integrity issue that we would have a billion children starving every day. It's just like unconscionable. So the way the Hunger Project approaches it is through transformation of the way we hold who we are as a human family. And that really appealed to me. And secondly, it was part of this work

of transformation that Buckminster Fuller and Warner Earhart came together to look at what is the most severe breakdown in the human condition in 1977 that we can bring the principles of transformation to to see if we can resolve it and not just make it not so bad, but resolve it. And I was attracted to both the methodology and the topic and then the people who were doing it were just awesome. And I became one of them. And then, of course, feeding people and having people provided for is really an act of love and service and relationship.

And when you look at the front and the backside of the hand of hunger, the front side of the hand of hunger is malnutrition, starvation, malabortion, hunger, seasonal hunger, physical hunger. The backside of the hand of hunger is the hunger for meaning, the hunger to make a difference with our life, the hunger to matter. And that's a very severe hunger in our world. And these two hungers are one. They are the front and the backside of the same hand.

And so you can't end this hunger without addressing this hunger, and you can't end this hunger without addressing this. So the Hunger Project was just a perfect fit for me, and I became one of its leaders, and responsible for fundraising. So I've raised hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for ending world hunger. And now I don't work for the Hunger Project any longer. I do the Pachamama Alliance and the Soul of Money Work. Potamam Alliance is working in the Amazon rainforest with indigenous people.

So that's a whole other world. But at the same time, everything I learned at the Hunger Project has served me in working with indigenous people of the Amazon. And once again, of course, fundraising is a central part of my life. And I'll just say, since you're giving me the opportunity in the microphone here, I think fundraising is absolutely sacred work. I don't think it's the necessary evil associations with the nonprofit sector. I think it is central, central to living a committed life. It's the privilege and opportunity to facilitate the reallocation of the world's financial resources away from what we fear, which is where most of our money is going,

and reallocating that same money towards what we love, the health and well-being of our families, the health and well-being of our families, the health and well-being of our communities, the health and well-being of our children, the health and well-being of the environment, the health and well-being of all children, of all species for all time. And moving money away from what we fear towards what we love, and facilitating that is the blessed, holy, sacred work of fundraising. So I love asking for money. I love earning money. I love contributing money.

I love the world of money if we know that what it's really about is our own humanity. and money is an innocent and neutral carrier of our love or our greed. And we get to choose. Wow, that was an incredibly profound set of wisdom and worldview that you just share with us. I think it's fantastic. Could you tell us a little bit about your book and the soul of money? Is that kind of the essence that we're getting at in the book and in your philosophy? And is that what you're trying to share with the world?

Yes, I'd say the Soul of Money book is the result of, you know, really decades of fundraising and dealing with people of enormous wealth and people living in conditions of poverty and hunger. And then knowing about all of us in between and realizing that the dynamics and society's relationship with money is very, very dysfunctional and also rooted in an unconscious, unexamined belief in scary. and that unconscious, unexamined belief in scarcity kind of generates so much anxiety and worry and upset and misunderstanding. And I consider it an unconscious, unexamined mindset that's actually a lie that is reflected in consumer culture, the commodify everything culture, this kind of terrified fear, I'd fear that there's not enough to go around and someone's going to be left out, and you have to make sure it's not you and yours, whoever you think that is.

And so I wrote the book to sort of blow the whistle on the mindset of scarcity so that we would realize that this world can accommodate all of us, that there's enough for everyone everywhere to have a healthy and productive life. And so the book was, you know, a lot of people encouraged me to write a book. I'm not a kind of a natural writer. I like to communicate, but writing is kind of scary because it's all, you're sort of solitary. But I got a collaborative writer, and she helped me kind of get it out of myself. And the book has been very helpful to people.

And this kind of blowing the whistle on the mindset of scarcity is really an important part of what I think we need to do. Because even in this time of the pandemic, the time of a political, horrendous divide and democracy being, at risk and then massive climate crisis, you could say it's all rooted in this fear of scarcity, in this you or me paradigm, either you make it at my expense or I make it at your expense, because we really unconsciously think there's not enough for both of us. But when you find out there's enough for everyone everywhere to have a healthy and productive life, then you start to shift into a you and me paradigm. and I can both make it at no one's expense. And that's a very, very different way to live. And it's a much

more healthy way to live. It's a more radically truthful way of living. And it's a much more fulfilling way to live. And it will be how we get through all these crises is with a you and me, not a you or me, paradigm and mentality and way of living. So the book is a is a, is a attempt, hopefully a successful one, to get at this unconscious belief system so that we drop it, transform it, and realize we're all in this together and we can make it. So you talk about the concept of enough in the book, not enough, in terms of not enough, not enough sleep, not enough time, not enough money. How can someone define their, you know, determine their own definition of enough?

because it seems like so many people want more, more, more, more, more. They can't be happy with what they have. Well, thank you, Mindy. I kind of need to say that a couple things to make that answer makes sense. The answer I'm going to give you, and the answer is that enough is not an amount. So let me go back and say why I'm saying that. We live in this mindset, we're swimming in this, what I call the lie of scarcity, where we, as you say, we wake up in the morning,

was immediately thinking we don't have enough sleep and then looking at the clock, oh, I don't have enough time, and then we don't have enough this and I don't have enough that. And most meetings, most podcasts, most everything, is about what we don't have enough of. And so the kind of then natural kind of response to that is more, more of anything, more of everything, more, more, more square feet in my house,

more money, more black pants, more this, more of that. more traffic, more market share, more, volunteers, more, more, more. And it's so indiscriminate now. And the messaging that you're not enough until you acquire this. You're not enough until you become that. Makes us feel that we're living in a deficit world, and we have a deficit relationship even with ourselves. It's not just there's not enough. It's not enough.

It starts to be, I'm not enough. So we have obesity. We have people just overdoing, you know, eating more than, They can possibly assimilate in their bodies. We have a mental illness breakdown. We have suicide rates going up. It's all related, in my view, to this there's not enough belief system that has become an I'm not enough belief system, a deficit relationship with ourselves. So to get to your real question, how do we transform that, really?

How do we get from there to this experience of enoughness, which I consider the radical surprising truth of sufficiency? And sufficiency is not an amount of anything, and enough in the way I'm talking about it is not actually an amount of anything either. It's a way of being in the world where you're not scrambling for more, where you, I'll tell you what I call the principle of sufficiency, which is the real answer to your question. And this is worth writing down for people who are taking notes.

But first listen, if you let go of trying to get more of what you don't really need, which is what we're brainwashed to want more of, it frees up all that energy, oceans of energy that's tied up in the chase to turn and pay attention to what you already have. When you pay attention to what you already have, when you nourish what you already have, when you love what you already have, and when you share what you already have

and make a difference with it, it expands. So let me say that again. When you let go of trying to get more of what you don't really need, it frees up all that energy to turn and make a difference with what you have. When you make a difference with what you have, it expands. And another way of talking about it is what you appreciate appreciates. What you appreciate appreciates.

So the distinction of enough is really a way of being in the world, where you let go of the craving and the demanding and the franticness of accumulating more all the time and take what you have and make a difference with it, whether it's your money or your talent, or your treasure or your intelligence or your love or your or your service and when you do that what you have expands rather than you have less of it you have more of it and that's a way of being in the world it doesn't mean you don't need to earn money i believe you do uh it doesn't mean you shouldn't you know buy things yes we should we do but when you're in this state of sufficiency that you know you're being met by the universe with what you need and want over and over and over again,

and you're deeply grateful for that. Everything that you cherish expands in the nourishment of your cherishing and expands in the nourishment of your sharing it. You know, we all know when we have a experience of prosperity, it's not when we're holding back. It's when we're, it's when we're sharing. That's when we feel prosperous. So it's sort of the opposite of what we think. It's not sufficient, not halfway between excess and poverty. It's not halfway between more than you need and less than you need. It's a way of being in the world.

It's a state of being in radical sufficiency with yourself. And then from there, you can build into natural abundance. I don't think you can get to abundance, real abundance, through the doorway of lack and fear. When you go through that doorway, you get a little bit more right away, but then it takes you to lack and fear again, and you need more right away,

and then that takes you to lack and fear. So that's an endless cycle. But if you start from, I am enough, there is enough, we are enough, and begin to be in service from there, what you have and what you're working with begins to expand into natural abundance. I think that's just fantastic and that's the worldview that more people should look through.

When I think about the people who may be listening to this podcast, who, you know, I know their mindset because I've been there. These are folks that are looking to become financially independent early in life. They want a one, two, two and a half million dollar net worth perhaps as a baseline that produces enough passive income so they don't have to rely on a job. and I think that some people, there's never enough. But for a lot of people in the community, the financial independence community that I've met, that is enough. They still have a hard time quitting their job and those types of things. And there's an existential question, what do I do with my life now that I've achieved this goal? But I'm wondering if this concept of enough is truly easier to embody or embrace once you've reached some sort of baseline level of financial,

abundance, that minimum level of financial freedom. I know that people can do it in all spectrums, but do you agree with that? Do you think that that's something that's built into psyche or the American life these days? You have to get to that baseline point? Yeah, and I think it's very wise to do that. So is it the fire network you're talking about? Yes, the financial independence. Yeah, Vicki Robin is my dear friend, and she's told me about.

about that network. And she's such an icon for them and for me too. And her book, Your Money or Your Life is such a gift to people that are in that world. And me too. Yes, I do think it's really important to take care of yourself and to make sure your needs are met and the needs of your family. You know, I guess what I should say is that Gandhi said there's enough for our need, but not for our greed. and that's really kind of the best answer to your question. You know, we do need to take care of ourselves and our families.

We do need to earn money. We do need to get to a place where we feel free with money. And some of that comes from attitude and freedom of the way we perceive the world, which is kind of my work. And some of it comes from actually earning enough that you can be financially independent on paper, which is what the fire network is doing so beautiful. And I love that you're connected to those people and are among those people because I think that's that's showing us all that there's no limits to people being able to meet their needs but then not go overboard. You know, it's the inequality gap is so, it's such a disgusting, really, obscene part of our culture.

no one needs a billion dollars or 10 billion dollars or 100 billion dollars or a trillion dollars. That's inappropriate for anybody to have that kind of financial power. It's just not right. It's not good for them. It's not good for the world. It's not good for our economy. It's not good for anything. But to be able to take care of yourself and become financially independent so that you can make the contribution that's yours to make, both financially, but with your energy and your time and your love, that makes total sense to me. I love that. And, you know, studies show, and I'm sure you probably teach this, I don't know,

the studies show that after your needs are met and you feel good about your capacity to take care of yourself, your happiness quotient doesn't go up with more money. It kind of goes down. In fact, money becomes kind of a problem. You get so anxious about it. I work with some global billionaires who are so far. freaked out when the stock market goes up or when it goes down or when it goes sideways. I mean, they can't sleep.

They can't eat. They can't function. They're like tied to the, you know, the stats. And here they are. They have billions of dollars. They can't even begin to spend it. So I think the fire network is a huge service in really demonstrating, especially for young people that you don't need to accumulate a fortune, but it is appropriate, if you can,

to get to a place where you have some freedom, financial independence, and then can see what is your life really about? Because it's not about making money anymore. It's about making a difference. So I really respect that. And thank you for mentioning that whole network. It's a wonderful, it's kind of a miraculous new development, I think. I agree. I love the fire movement. I love the people involved in it. And I think that it's a great, it's a great concept to solidify your financial future, your financial situation, so that you can act with purpose, with consciousness, without worrying about, oh, is this going to put food on my table? You've already taken care of that. Yes. Let's talk about our current money culture in terms of, you know, America. Why do you think the current

culture has toxic traits? Well, it's really bad now. We're so addicted to more, more of anything and everything. We're so clueless about understanding that there are limits to this planet, that unlimited growth on a finite planet is, it makes no sense and cannot continue. And that we are unabashedly pursuing that as if it's a whole. for everything is the source in many ways of our inequality crisis, our political crisis, our economic crisis, even our health crisis, in my opinion. And so the culture we're living in right now is so devoid of making sense of a relationship with money that would be functional rather than dysfunctional, that it's very hard to swim in

these. They're shark-filled waters, really. And advertising and marketing is so intense. and it just has to get more intense when the goal is unlimited growth, you just have to compete more and more and louder and louder and more and more, you know, things written on your clothes and written on the sky and written all over every single you, every single podcast gets interrupted 10,000 times by commercials. You can't watch a film anymore without a commercial. It's just, it's just endless. So I feel that the money culture is really, really harsh and harsh. hard on us and doesn't, it's not money, but it's the money culture, doesn't allow us to

see the forest for the trees about what we truly value. And maybe it's in its death throes. I don't know. Sometimes I think maybe that would be good if the whole thing collapsed. Now I know that'll be painful and it is painful already. But I love the new money systems that are being invented. I love Kate Rawworth's donut economics, if you're familiar with that, where no one falls through the cracks, and there's limits to how much you take from the natural world. It just makes so much sense. And so I think we're in danger.

We're endangered by the culture we live, and it makes us think we need more of everything when we don't. And, you know, some people, of course, do, yes. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the people who are accumulating, and I'm one of them sometimes. You know, I find myself it's very compelling advertising and marketing. It's really, everybody's got our psychology really well.

And then, of course, the algorithms that once you buy something online, it presents to you, you know, two seconds later, ten things that, you know, that appeal to you because they start to figure out, what will make you purchase again. So we're sort of like pray for the money grunging system that we're in. And money's innocent. Money's wonderful. I'm not against money.

I love it. But the culture is just harsh, unforgiving, confusing, and misleading. And I'm all about transforming that or at least strengthening people's resolve so they're not caught in that all the time. You mentioned earlier on the, on the, on, um, interview here, and I think it's one of your most famous quotes that money carries intention. Um, can you walk through what you mean by that? And can you, do you think that the intention of money in the context of the culture, culture at large is more as you, as you, as you would call it? Is that as it's as simple as and perverse, maybe as that? Well, um, I, I wrote a book called the soul of money as you've

referenced. And, um, people ask me, does money have a soul? And I, I, I say, it's because I're a trick title. I say, no, money doesn't have a soul, but you do, I do, we do. And we can give soul to money. Money actually is a carrier. It's innocent. It can carry greed and crime and hate and racism and domination and colonialism. Or it can carry forgiveness, love, nourishment,

healing energy. It's how we use it. It's how we put our imprimatur on it. And so, you know, I work a lot with philanthropy and there have been times. There was one story I'll tell when, well, I tell a lot of stories in the book, but here's one I didn't tell. When someone raced into our office at the Hunger Project and left a safeway garbage, you know, brown paper grocery bag on the front desk and then ran out. And it was kind of a sort of scruffy, sort of a street-looking person, a guy who hadn't washed in a long, long time. And we looked in the grocery bag, and it was filled with cash. And it became clear to us that it was stolen or drug money or something, and he was unloading

it at the Hunger Project. And we called the police, and they came over, and they looked at the serial numbers and all the things that they do, and they said, we don't know where this came from, we can't trace it. You should keep it. we thought we should keep it it's probably you know dirty money you know illegal money it wasn't counterfeit nothing wrong

with it so they said you should keep it for your work so we put the money I remember doing this myself we poured out the grocery bag you can picture this and put it in the middle of the floor in this on this carpet where we all sat in a circle

at the Hunger Project staff and then we lit little votive candles around the money made a little like a little grotto, a little, you know, sacred altar-like thing. And then we forgave the money for wherever it came from, whatever it was carrying, whoever had stolen it, just let it be clean and clear. Let it. We laundered it. We laundered it. And then we spent it. You know, we put it in the bank. And I think you can do that. I think you can do that. I think you can do that. I think you can you know, literally launder money, like reaffirm that this is for the good.

This is to nourish the world, the environment, children, animals, even political leaders. You can do that with your taxes. You can say, this is my contribution to roads, to education, to this is not something I'm trying not to do and I'm trying to get around it. No, this is me contributing, actually. involuntarily in some ways, but to making this country, if you live in the United States or wherever you live, the country that we want it to be. And, you know, so it's really an energy that we give to money. And money is an energy as energy too, but we give it its energy. We give it

its imprimatur. So I think there's a power and philanthropy, for example, which I get involved in, sometimes can be harmful because it's a gesture. It's like relieving the suffering of the person who has too much money rather than the suffering of the person they're trying to give it to. Sometimes it's all about the philanthropist, you know, getting a good name or getting their name on the side of a building. But if the intention is clean and clear, this money is designed and I give my energy to it to serve, then it will.

I really believe that money given to make a difference does. I think that it carries that power. One of our producer, Kalin's favorite quotes of yours, is what appreciates, appreciate. Can you tell us what that means in this context? Well, if you think about just if everybody could think about someone in their life who is quite judgmental and somewhat critical of you, maybe the jury's out and they're not so sure they like you and they're trying to figure that out and they're kind of like checking you out and not so sure about you.

And when you think about, just think about that person. If you can picture somebody like that, maybe you don't have anybody like that, then you're lucky. But if you do, think about that person and when you think about them, usually there's a little retraction. You retract a little bit almost physically. You know, you shut down a little bit. Just when you think about them. certainly when you're around them, most people do. So then think about someone who loves you,

who appreciates you, who affirms you, who thinks you're wonderful, who just adores and cherishes you, who loves all the qualities you have. And think about that person, and your body opens up, you're straightened up, you brighten up, you're expanded.

And so that's just an example of what you appreciate, appreciates, that that which we appreciates becomes larger and grows in the nourishment of our appreciation. So if I say to you both, you know, I really, really, really, and this is true, appreciate that you've read The Soul of Money and that was useful to you, and that you've put it to work in your life, and that you have this incredible program where you work with people and money, maybe, and I think probably using some of the principles from that book, book. And not only do I appreciate that, but I want to just say to everyone who's listening how not only grateful I am, but how I appreciate that you didn't just read the book and keep it

for yourself. But you read the book and you're making those precepts, those concepts, those ideas available to other people. And I really, I want to want to thank you for that. And I appreciate that. Now, telling you that, hopefully, makes you expand your capacity to do that because you've been appreciated for it. Perhaps it makes the people who hear me say that want to learn more and get more involved in you so they can learn some of those principles. So what we appreciate grows in the nourishment of our appreciation, our children, our garden, nature, other people in particular, projects. If you love a project, if you love a movie, Just think about a restaurant or movie.

I love, I love this particular movie. You know, my friend, what is it called? My friend, The Octopus, let's say. I think it's, what's the name? My Octopus Teacher. My Octopus Teacher. I love, love, love, love that movie. And every time I say I love it, then people ask me,

what's the name of the one you like so much? And they go and watch it. And then they love it. So appreciation actually nourishes. It's like gardening. It's like watering and fertilizing the flowers that are most meaningful to you, and they grow in the nourishment of that appreciation. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full

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Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. With over 1,500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business.

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And how do you recommend our listeners have a healthy relationship with money? Well, I do something on my website, which is the three steps of money forgiveness. because I think what we don't do or the mistakes we make are we think that it's our fault that we screw up with money. And to some extent, you know, you need to take some responsibility. But the money culture drives us in directions that are inconsistent with our humanity. The consumer culture has us buy things we don't need, purchase things on a whim, has us reactive. uses fear, you know, all advertising is about what are your pain points, you know, sort of pushing you into your own traumas to get you to sign up for something.

So the mistake we make with money is using it to resolve our pain, making mistakes that are really about trying to go the easy route to have more money than we need and just get a windfall. And we make money mistakes sometimes that hurt other people very deeply. In partnerships, in business partnerships, we lose our way. We can't see the forest for the trees anymore. The kind of shiny object of more money has us lose a little bit of our humanity sometimes. And so most people have upsets, they did things they didn't mean to do.

they have, they did things that they wish they hadn't done. You know, we all wish we'd invested in an Apple computer a long time ago, for example. But, you know, other things that are really like we've made mistakes. And one of the mistake we make on top of the mistake is not forgiving ourselves, is carrying those mistakes forward as if they make us into a bad person. The culture we live in fosters and foments. anxiety and upset and wrongdoing around money. And if we can stay in touch with our humanity,

we'll realize that we got caught in that and that we're not flawed, but the system that we're in is flawed. And if we can forgive ourselves and stay in touch with and intact in our own integrity, we won't make that mistake again. But forgiving ourselves is really, really important. So I have a little video about that three-step. to money forgiveness, which is helpful for people. I love it.

I think that also, in addition to the great points make about forgiveness, money, you know, you've called it as like water. Another word you could use describe it as a tool. And a tool is neither good nor bad. You just need to learn how to use the tool. And I think that that's a big part of this as well as folks just don't know how to use money and they're not financially literate across the board. It's not something that we emphasize in our culture despite the glorification of money.

and more and more and more, there's not an understanding of basic financial literacy. And I think that's a big component of this. When you understand it, you can harness it and use it towards the purpose that you want to manifest in life. Yeah, I love that. That's what you teach, right? That's what you do, you guys. Financial literacy, that's what we're hoping to do.

I love that because, you know, financial literacy, it's just a crime that it's not in grade school. I mean, come on. It could be grade school, middle school, high school, college. If you don't take accounting or bookkeeping or, you know, you might take economics, but a lot of that's so theoretical. It's just to really learn how to balance the budget, to understand money, to understand, you know, a balance sheet. And what's the difference between that and cash flow and what's equity? I mean, it's just nobody tells you that stuff unless you go to business school.

And not everybody's going to do that. It's they can't afford it, most of all. The only way to learn about those things is BP money. Sorry. Exactly. Well, where can we learn more about your new book that you're coming out with? What's it about? And can you give us ways to go find it, buy it and read it?

Yes, I can. Yes, I can. I love that you're mentioning that. It's called Living a Committed Life, Finding Freedom and Fulfillment, in a Purpose Larger Than Yourself. And it's really about living a life where your commitment is larger than your own life starring you, that it's not all about you. it's not all about whether you're cool enough or you're not enough or you're not handsome enough or not cool enough or not thin enough or all the stuff that we doubt ourselves about that kind of consumes our life and makes us buy all kinds of weird stuff and put all of that noise it goes once you have a big commitment a commitment that's worthy of your humanity all that I'm not good enough it's not enough we don't have enough I'm not this enough

starts to move to the background. It doesn't go away because it's part of being human, unfortunately, but the noise goes down. It moves to the background, and your commitment moves to the foreground. And you don't really have time to entertain all those thoughts anymore because you're too busy fulfilling a commitment that's really meaningful to you, a big commitment. And so the book is about what kind of life that gives you

and how it gives you joy, freedom, and fulfillment, rather than trapping you in something. it frees you into something. And also a big commitment comes back into your life and shapes you into who you need to be to fulfill it. I'm sure the two of you when you started, I think three of you, when you started this whole podcast thing, had a vision for it, and now actually delivering this material all the time has come back and shaped you into who you need to be to deliver this podcast, if you know what I mean. The commitment to make the podcast brilliant, shapes you into brilliant podcasters.

And that's the way that it works. It's not the other way around. It's not. You have to be totally brilliant before you commit. No, you commit, you're an ordinary human being. Gandhi was an ordinary human being who was thrown off a train. And then he made this huge commitment, and it shaped him into one of the greatest ontological or spiritual teachers of our time.

Martin Luther King was, you know, his mother was struggling with too many kids. She was an organ player in the church. She got assassinated after he did. So he grew up in poverty. But then he made a big commitment, not just to people of color, but to all people. And that commitment shaped him into an orator, a genius, a brilliant speaker. So, you know, yes, we have given. when we're born, but all of us have them.

And what makes people extraordinary is when they give their award, like you have, to do this podcast and help people with their relationship with money, like I have. And so it makes you into the person who can deliver the commitment you've made. So the book is about that. It's about the distinction between change and transformation. It's about the difference between taking a position and taking a stand. It's a hundreds of, I don't know hundreds, but dozens and dozens of stories of people who are living a committed life and it's completely transformed the world and

them. And it's a book for everyone because I think this epic time in history that we all have a role to play, everybody has a role to play. If you're born now, you have a role to play in this epic, epic time in history. It's not a big role or small role. It's just your role. And I invite you through my book and through podcasts like this to find that Dharma and to give your heart and soul to it because that's the source of freedom, fulfillment, and true prosperity. Yeah. That's, I think, so powerful is this concept of why. What are you doing? What's your goal?

What's your mission with that? And what we're trying to do is we want to help a million people become millionaires. Just like that baseline level of financial freedom for as many people as possible. because that unlocks people, I think, in a way to go after something, to play that role. I wouldn't have phrased it like that previously, but I think that's the right way to articulate it, to play that whatever role they have to their maximum capacity. And that's what I think this is all, like that's what basic financial literacy and being comfortable with the tool of money and understanding what enough looks like, getting to enough and actually

being satisfied with that, that unlocks me a potential. And that's what that's what keeps me up in the morning. about this and you know go go find that for yourself what what is that what is that mission and then get to a place where you can pursue it with in the context of a free life yeah i love i love you guys that's so awesome i love what you're doing i love love love what you're doing i want my grandkids to get involved with you i want everybody to get involved yeah fantastic wonderful wow i just love that bravo lynn where can people find more about you Well, they can go to soulofmoney.org, s-o-u-o-f-m-o-n-e-y-y-org.

And there they'll find the Soul of Money books, the Living and Committed Life book. I think it's right now probably right on the cover. They'll find three steps to money forgiveness. It's a little three-minute course that you can take. And all kinds of stuff on there. If you just kind of click here and there, soulof-money.org. And then I do want to say that the Pachamama Alliance, the work we do in the Amazon Rainforest, which is really, really awesome and a chance for people to engage with indigenous wisdom and the kind of the courses we do that open people's hearts and minds to the natural world in new ways and social justice is another thing that I want to just mention because it's another portal to really living a committed life. and that's pacha mama.org, P-A-C-H-A-M-A-M-A, Pachamama, all one word,

Pachamama means mother-Earth.org. That's another thing. And then the Hunger Project, of course, that I spoke about, people probably want to know how to get there. But you just say thehungerproject.org. So it's all pretty simple. Sollofmoney.org, thehungerproject.org, pachamama.org are all things that I would love people to visit. Awesome. Well, we will link to all of those in the show notes.

Lynn, thank you so much for your time today. This was so much fun and it was such an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate it. And we talked to you soon. Yeah, thank you very much. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Mindy. Thank you, Scott.

And thank you for what you're doing. I really, really, really love it and want everyone to get involved with you. And so I'm so grateful to be part of your world and part of your podcast. And let's go forth and multiply. We admire the impact that you've had on the world in so many good ways. So thank you for sharing some of your wisdom with us. Thank you. My pleasure.

My honor. Okay, Scott, that was the fabulous lid twist. Wasn't she wonderful? Yeah. I mean, her perspective on money, life, was fantastic. One of the things I particularly appreciated was, you know, some, I think sometimes, when we talk about purpose and these things, people can take it to an extreme and think, you know, on the one hand, any accumulation of wealth is, you know, a missed opportunity to serve others, for example. And there's no, there's no good that comes from accumulating wealth. And that can, that can be a perverse way to think about it. On the other

extreme, you can get these, these folks that are really into, like, for example, effective altruism. And it's like, I need to become a billionaire or make many multiple billions of dollars so that I can, I can then have an impact on society with this. And I, I like the fact, I really like the fact that I think Lynn agreed largely with the way Mindy, you and I might view the world here where there's it's important to get to a baseline level of enough of modest level of modest to moderate level of financial freedom and then use that position to go towards your your life purpose your mission the impact you want to have to do some sort of good in the world and that I think you know is is validating to hear Lynn agree with that and say that like oh my

the 20 my 20s where I really hustled very hard. to become financially independent so that I can kind of direct life on my own terms here is validated and is good. And I can then go on and have that impact. But going after 10 or 100 or a million, 10 million or 100 million or a billion dollars, why? More, more, more, more, more. It's not necessary. I think we've got it in the fire movement. I think you're right, Scott. I think that people who come into the fire movement, who have maybe just heard about it are super excited about the retire early part. And they don't really focus so much on the financial independence part.

And I think the more time you spend in this space in this community and you start hearing other people talking about what they're doing and how they're serving, you start to transform your thinking. And okay, let me get money out of the way so I can concentrate on my dreams. but then my dreams can sometimes morph into what can I do to help the world. It isn't just about me anymore. It's because I've gotten money out of the way, now I can give of myself without worrying about how much it's going to bring in for me because I'm financially independent. So I think that this is a great starting place for people who are, it's a great starting place to start thinking about the greater world. It's hard to make a lot of difference in the world

when you don't have any money. And that's unfortunate. I mean, you can. I'm not, oh, boy, I am digging myself a big hole. But it's, it's a lot easier to make a difference with money. And it's a lot easier to make a difference with time. And if you are working full time to put food on the table and pay your bills, it's hard to give back outside of that time, especially if you have a family. especially if you've got all these other obligations. You know what I mean? Am I just like, do I just need to stop talking because I keep digging? No, I completely agree.

I would phrase it as power, right? You know, there's a tremendous amount of power that is unlocked when you feel financially independent and ready to actually do the things you want to do in approaching your life. And then I would imagine, I don't know, but I don't know, I don't have a lot of billionaire friends. I don't have any billion friends. But I imagine that that power, you know, that power continues to increase as your debt worth increases, but it's a diminishing marginal return. The ability to work against your purpose is unlocked when we hit financial freedom.

And it's much lesser before that point because you feel like you have to go to work and you have to do this job and you have to put food on the table and get to that, be self-sufficient up until the, that point. So that's the philosophy that has really guided me for a long time. And I, you know, I'm never, you never, never sure about these, these philosophies. But, but I feel like there's a good validation today from Lynn. I agree. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen, saying, find your purpose and do good in the world. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaelin Bennett. Editing by XX.

Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the bigger pockets team for making this show possible.