BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 398: How to Change Your Financial Life with a Money “Reset”

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

For so long, early retirement has been THE goal of those chasing financial independence. Can you imagine waking up with unlimited time, not having to work, and reporting to no one but yourself? Now imagine that day in and day out. Before long, the luster of never working gets to you, and that's because if you've achieved financial independence, the regular type of "retirement" just won't work. But what if you could restart your career, do something you REALLY cared about, or build your dream business? Jill Schlesinger, author of The Great Money Reset: Change Your Work, Change Your Wealth, Change Your Life, has redefined what FIRE should mean. Instead of financial independence, retire early, she's opting for financial independence, new endeavor. Now, those skills you've been building for decades can be put to good use, working how much you want, for who you want, and doing what you want. But what if you're not at financial independence yet? What if you're stuck feeling miserable in a job, slogging your way to retirement? Jill suggests performing a "money reset." Through a five-step system, you'll see where you stand financially, what's important to you, and how to change your life entirely so you can stop doing what you must and start doing what you love. Whether you're retired, retired early, on the path to FI, or don't know where to start, Jill's money thoughts will rock your financial world. In This Episode We Cover Why you (probably) AREN'T pursuing your dreams, and whether money is REALLY the issue Resetting your career and why it's a smart move to make MULTIPLE times in life The FINE alternative to the FIRE movement, and why working after early retirement is a blessing, not a curse The 'Fabulous Five" that will give you an overall picture of your financial health and money wealth  How to perform a "money reset" no matter what stage you're at in life (or how much money you have) And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Mindy's Twitter Henry's BiggerPockets Profile Henry's Instagram Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! On The Market Subscribe to The “On The Market” YouTube Channel Listen to The “On The Market” Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, BiggerPockets Check Out Mindy’s 2022 Live Spending Tracker and Budget Money Moment Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-398 Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Let us know! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Jill Schlesinger and talk about her book, The Great Money Reset. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And joining me today is my guest co-host from our sister podcast on the market, Henry Washington. Hey, thank you for having me. I'm super excited. And I just love hanging out with you. Thank you for joining me, Henry, while Scott goes off gallivanting to Ski Town. Henry and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in

assets like real estate or start your own business, will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams. Henry, thank you for joining me today. this is going to be a super fun episode. We have Jill Schlesinger from the Jill on Money podcast in to talk about her new book, The Great Money Reset. And holy canoli, does she deliver? Oh, man, she's a rock star.

What I appreciate about Jill most is it's almost like this. You know, it's like you're, it's like I even think she calls herself this. It's like your aunt kind of giving you a reality check about how to put your finances on paper and make a plan, but not in a way that you feel judged for it, but just kind of talks to you about the things that we truly, like, you need to have a plan and a budget, right? Everybody gets that. But like the way she kind of commonsensically talks you through and then gives you a blueprint to follow so that you actually follow through and do those things, it just makes it sound easy. It makes it sound achievable. And I just love that approach. I do too. And I, there's something about

her delivery that just makes it sound doable, achievable, like you said. I'm super excited to bring her in. But before we bring in Jill, we have a new segment on the show called Money Moment, where we share a money hack, tip, or trick to help you on your financial journey. Today's Money Moment, are you bored and want to save money? Take advantage of your library. They offer several entertainment options, including classes, e-books and audiobooks. My library even rents DVDs. Some libraries even allow you to stream movies, borrow tools, sewing machines. I've even seen some that lend cake pans. How cool is that? Check out your local library. And if you haven't been to your library, you are really missing out on a super awesome resource for your community. All right. If you have a money tip for us,

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I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog

across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. And we're back. Jill Schlesinger is the host of the podcast. Jill on Money and the Emmy and Gracie Award-winning business analyst for CBS News.

Jill also appears on CBS radio and television stations nationwide covering the economy, markets, investing, pretty much anything with the dollar sign. Jill, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money's podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today. Have you had a very bad day and this is it? Like, this is about as good as it's going to get? I mean, no, I'm very happy to be with you. I really appreciate it.

This is going to be fun. You're Jill Schlesinger. of course I'm excited to talk to you. Okay, Jill, I know who you are, but can you walk us through your journey to becoming the podcaster, author, CFP, and news business analyst, extraordinary that you are? Well, this is a trick question because you said to me before we got on the air that you were going to ask me many trick questions. This is obviously one of them, which is to basically talk about myself, which I usually have to pay someone, you know, just like a shrink to listen to me. But now you guys all have to do it. I don't have to pay you to do it.

So I grew up in New York City area, like the burbs of New York, and my father was a trader on the floor of the American Stock Exchange, and his best friend was a trader on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. So I kind of grew up around the business. And essentially, my journey through life is basically athlete, trader on the floor of the commodities exchange, certified financial planner, investment advisor, you know, for, 14 years and then moving into media full time. And, you know, the journey was like lots of jigs and jags, but we're going to have to go out drinking for you to get the real story. But, you know, since we're just on a podcast, what I can tell you is that I have reset my life many, many times. And as people in my family used to like to say when we actually had real address books, don't put Jill's address in anything but pencil. My parents say that about me. That's I am sitting in my 29th home. So I, we're all peas in a pod here, Jill. My parents set all my Christmas gifts this year to a house I lived in two houses ago.

Nice. Nice. They really got to, you got to talk to them a little bit. You know, it's funny, though, like, I think that one of the things that is very clear after you go through a lot of moves and you sort of remember like, oh, I know how to do this, right? And so much I think in life is about this, like the change can be really daunting if you've never done something before, right? So if you talk to someone who's pregnant or, you know, they're like, I don't know what I'm doing. And in the back of your head, you're thinking, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. Humans know how to have babies, but they don't know that person who's pregnant has no idea. It's like, I'm going through this for the first time in my life. So I can understand how change can really be daunting. I've just done it a lot.

and so it feels less scary for me. And, you know, frankly, some of the reasons why I think I really do love what I do now is that there's nothing that scary. I feel like I've been through a lot, not just my own career, but, you know, as someone who's been part of markets, who's seen my dad make and lose fortunes throughout his working life and, you know, sort of hang up, you know, stand on his feet and, you know, really endure some kind of brutal periods. in terms of watching markets and the economy.

I tend to get wildly calm when people are going insane. And it is, that's like my little spitey gift, which is there's nothing that really unnerves me. So I think that's one of the reasons why it's good for me to be the kind of person who's on a podcast answering financial question. This really is nothing that, you know, anyone can say to me that I'm like, A, not heard, or B, that I would react to. emotionally, unless it's like a real thing. Like we had someone call who said, you know, I,

my partner has an end of life diagnosis or, you know, my kid has a terrible illness. Like, that's the kind of thing that makes me upset. Otherwise, markets in money, nothing. That couldn't bother me at all. Absolutely. You know, it seems like, you know, those life experiences and these like some forced resets and some, you know, chosen resets have kind of made you this, you know, quote unquote expert on how to do the reset. So talk to us a little bit about like you wrote this amazing book called The Great Money Reset. So how did your journey kind of take you on this path to to write this book? Well, you know, it's so funny because my idea behind writing a book the first timer, I wrote us another book called The Dumb Things Smart People Do With Their Money. And because when I was a financial planner,

I would always be like, wow, this person's so smart. I can't believe what an idiotic move they just made. Like, you know, that, like, we all do dumb things with our money. And I felt like writing that book was sort of, you know, like eating my vegetables. Like, I had to write that book first. This book is delicious. I love it so much. I found it that it essentially wrote itself. And it happened for a funny reason.

And that is that, you know, I hate to say this because it sounds like I'm such a snobby person, which I'm really not. But like, my book agent called me, which is a silly thing to say. So my book agent called me. And he's a friend of my, Brian. And he said, don't you have a second book in you? And it was like a middle of COVID, let's put it, like the middle of 2020. Maybe it's now the end of 2020, basically. And I said, no, I'm never writing another book again.

It's horrible process, agonizing. And he says, oh, do I maybe try to put something again? So I put a couple of things together and nothing that was clicking. And he called me like in the beginning of 21. He said, well, what about what's exciting to you? And I think what he thought I was going to say was like, well, I just did a piece for CBS Sunday morning and I said, well, you know what's exciting to me and interesting. I have been getting a slew of calls from listeners who are absolutely like asking these

existential questions of themselves. And I find it fascinating that that's where they are that like collectively we are all going through this thing called a once in a century pandemic. And it's causing us to rethink our lives. And I've had these really interesting conversations, people doing all sorts of things. And I feel like my role in that is like the coach, you know, or the cheerleader to say like, yeah, yeah, you can do it. Here's what you need to think about. And so what I essentially did is I wrote this book as the framework for anyone who is contemplating some sort of change. And it could be in

their work. It can be something about their financial life. It could be just a life choice. And it was so much fun to write it because I got to tell the stories of the people who were, on the Jill on Money show, and they helped me write the book, essentially. That's why I did this. And you know, like a real specific framework doesn't mean that I'm calculating a financial plan for people. It's just that I'm saying, here are the things you ask yourself. Here's a kind of a process and that if I have different things that I'm considering before I reset my life, I want to make sure I take care of these issues that will help me reset my life. And that's why I wrote it. Awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about like what were some of your community members saying?

What were you hearing from your audience about like the resets that were inspired that inspired this book? Well, I think that the most important thing that I was that I bring into this is that, you know, again, I've been doing this for a long time, many decades. And, you know, when I think about the financial crisis, I first got to CBS in the beginning of 2009. And when I first got to CBS, I remember thinking that I would get emails from people. I didn't have a show yet. And, you know, I was really trying to be like hard news girl. And but I found that the questions were sort of like, what should I do? Right?

Because it was a housing crisis and people were freaking out. And I get it. That is, you know, it was not a fun time. And the what should I do is sort of like a utilitarian question. But I do think that people, as we were all going through the pandemic, there was a different kind of question that people were asking. Instead of what should I do, it's kind of like who am I and who do I want to be. And what I was really inspired by were the stories of people who were going along their lives down a path that they had envisioned for themselves and had the courage to say, you know what, I'm not loving the path I'm on. And what can I do to try to make something different happen?

And one of my favorite stories in the book was a story of Pam and Tom, who were listeners there in the Pittsburgh area. So she is a nurse and it is COVID. You know, she's working in an operating room. She's taken on a ton of responsibility. She's working her butt off. She's telling me the story, which is essentially that she and her husband in their 50s had put kids through college, but they had amassed a bunch of debt in doing so. And the issue around

this was that they both had good jobs. He was a physical therapist. She was a nurse, but they, they felt really overwhelmed in some respects by the amount of debt that they had accumulated. So she's in the operating room. You know, it's probably like mid-21, getting to the end of 21. And the surgeon said, was talking about the housing market, which, by the way, sidebar, what a funny thing. you're the patient, your doctors, nurses, everyone there, they're talking about their housing values, okay? That's what's happening. So they're talking about house prices. The surgeon's like, oh my God, like, have you seen how much our houses are worth lately? Like, it's incredible. And she was sort of like, what do you mean? She, he says, go home, talk to a realtor, have your realtor come over,

and you're going to be shocked. And lo and behold, the realtor comes over and the house is worth a lot more than they had ever imagined. And, you know, her husband's kind of like, well, but we need a house place to live. And she, like, almost in a split second was, like, could recognize we have a lot more equity. We now have a lot of choices. And maybe this life that we were about to kind of continue on is not the life I want. And after going through a lot of the analysis, what they realized was if they could sell their house, they could pay off the mortgage, they could pay off the parent loans, they could pay off

the credit card debt, they could pay off the car loans, they could pay off the car loans, They could put money in the bank. And she said the thing that was fascinating to her was that she realized I didn't have to work as much. I didn't have to take all that over time. I could actually have a career that I really like working a normal work week without feeling overwhelmed and kind of like crying when it came to the end of a shift because I was so tired and emotionally exhausted.

She felt unburdened by paying down the debt. And they ended up getting a long-term Airbnb where she, essentially, was like living on a farm. It was like a little bit outside of the city, like maybe 20 minutes outside the city. And, you know, I kept in touch with them. And she's just like so happy. And she said, I never thought I'd be the kind of person who could be happy in a place where I was renting versus owning. I never thought I'd be the kind of person who just could do this. And I am, we, we as a couple are stronger for going through this. We are happier. And we think we can actually work longer. and not as hard so that we can really make the same retirement come to fruition, but without all the

burden walking into it. And I think that's an inspiring story. I love their story. And I mean, she's living on a farm with horses. She gets to be around horses, which is something that she loves. I really like that story in your book. Yeah, I love that one. What do you think is the number one reason why people feel stuck or are not pursuing their dream career? I think that heart of it is that, well, first of all, you know, I'm not one of these people who's like, oh, it's always my dream to do, do, do, do to do. I stumbled into careers in many ways. So I don't want to put the pressure on that you have to find your dream career. But, you know, it's like, if you think of what AI does, it's like there's lived experience, right? There's experience and you create a different

solution, right? But we have that as human beings. We are like one giant AI bot. We have lived experience, we know what we like, we know what we don't like. And when you're sitting there and dreaming about something, you know, my book is not to help you figure out what the dream is. My book is hopefully a way for you to take something that you say, I'd like to explore this. How can I get there? So if you say, okay, Henry's like, you know what? What I really want to do is I've been a podcaster, my whole life, everything is great, but you know what I really want to do? I really want to be a teacher. And it would mean that I'd make less money,

but I really feel like I love kids. I want to do this. I want to do. And like my goal in the book is that when you, instead of just thinking about that, is to walk people through a process where they can say, well, what would that mean? So I'm going to make up numbers, Henry,

so don't get, you know, I don't want to be a little forward with you. But let me just try. So let's say that Henry has like this awesome podcasting career. And he's making 150, grand a year. Let's just put that out there. And yes, baby. And, you know, he's got, you know, he's got not such great benefits, but, you know, 150 grand and he saved some money. But being a teacher and maybe you're going to be, maybe you play a musical instrument. So maybe it's like, I want to be the

teacher. I want to help lead the band. I want to do all these things. But I love kids. Unfortunately, doing that would essentially mean that instead of making 150 grand year, he'd make 70 grand a year, you know, and then go maybe eventually, right? So we'd start at 50. And so what I hope I can do in talking to someone like Henry is to say, all right, well, let's look at the money that you have. Let's look at what your dream is. And let's work backwards.

What would it mean for you to take this cut? What would it mean for your spending? How much of your money would you have to actually allocate towards making a transition? What would you lose? But what would you gain? And maybe in Henry's case, he's like, you know what? This podcasting thing, it sucks. And I'm tired.

He does not said that at all. I'm making this up. And, you know, I really want to do this and I want to at least try. I want to at least try. And if that were the case, I'd have to use some of the money that I've saved up to kind of float my expenses and transition. But I would actually have a pension. So if things worked out really well, I could be part of a pension system and I'd have

great benefits. And so what my goal is in terms of the book and talking to people like this is to say, let's open up your opportunities. You tell me what it is you want to do. And then let's run through an analysis to see if it's possible. Maybe it's not. You know, maybe Henry's like, oh, I like spending a hundred grand a year. So, you know, making 70 is not going to work for me. Or maybe it's, I'm spending a hundred grand a year. And you know what? I'm not even happy with this life. And maybe I'd be happier if I spent less, but could be in a job that's more fulfilling. So all these things are tradeoffs. And there are parts of the book that help people ask themselves questions or give them a process for going through how they can

approach a reset or make that dream a reality. Thank you so much. I totally agree because I have often thought I wanted to leave this all behind to pursue my career to lead a team of 13-year-old piccolo artists. And so now I have a blueprint for how I can map all that out. I thought you'd like that. Wow, that is not my dream job at all. But I wish you success.

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. So on our show, we like to talk a lot about fire, right? And so tell us about what your acronym of fine is and how's that different? Are you fire adherence? No, we are a big fan of financial independence. Well, we know we like to call it, I like to call a financial independence to real estate because that's my main venture. Okay. And what about you, Mindy? What's your, how do you think about it? I am a huge fan of all things, financial independence.

And I like to focus more on the FI part than the RE part. I think so many people hear, I can quit my job. That's awesome. And that's not what it's about. It's about becoming, getting money out of the way so you can live your best life, not so much just quitting your job and laying on the beach and eating bonbons all day, although that sounds really awesome right now. Yeah, exactly.

You know, listen, I think that when I thought of, I heard about the fire movement and I interviewed a bunch of people who wrote these books and I, you know, I did segments on TV about it and, you know, I'm kind of an old fuddy daddy. So I'm in my late 50s and I came up through a system of kind of work your ass off and, you know, I retire eventually. But like, you know, you don't not work. Like that's not something that's quite foreign to me. So I found the idea of retiring early very weird. So, and when I would talk to people on the air and someone would say like, you know, I would like, you know, I want to retire when I'm 50. I'm like, what are you going to do? You're going to live 40 more years. What are you going to do?

And we started talking about this on the air quite a bit and we decided that I did like a little contest with the listeners. Like if we don't want to retire early, what do we want? And it's, you know, basically financial independence, new or next endeavor. Like that's what fine means to me. And I think that this is probably where most of those people in the fire movement end up, frankly, because, you know, I had spoken to, I remember I interviewed this young couple and they were fire adherence and they're in the studio. This is when we still had studios and they came into the studio and I'm like, but where do you put your stuff? Like, well, you know, like some stuff is at my parents house and they point to like two backpacks on the floor. I'm like, that's our stuff. I'm like, okay, you don't have kids yet and

like you're 35 years old. This ain't going to work so great. But okay, fine. And, you know, of course, life changes. And I think it's kind of a cool thing to consider that you work really hard, you save money. Most of the people that I encounter in my life and on my show were people who were very interested in having enough wherewithal financial independence to maybe make a change, a new or a next endeavor. And it may not even be a huge shift. But it's almost like I also want to go through my career and at some point realize that I am in a very wonderful club. Do you know what that club is? It's called the one bad meeting club. And what does that mean? You're one bad meeting away from giving notice and being done. Like you know that in your heart that I could leave any time.

And that is a great source of comfort to many people. My big concern is that if you, even if you know that you're just one bad meeting away from calling it quits, what are you doing next? Because the idea that we could live till we're 95 and Henry, you'd probably like 100 because you look very young. You know, that's very, that's daunting. What are you going to do? How are you going to stay engaged? What is, what is it that you want? I mean, I just find it hard to believe that so many people out there who are like really focused on like, I just want to be done at 62 and then I'm going to hang.

out in, you know, fill in the blank, Florida, this place, that, but what do you do when you get there? And so I would like people to really think about what is it the next thing you want to do, what is the new thing you want to do, how do we get you there? And, you know, financial independence doesn't mean that you've got a gazillion dollars. It means that you can finance the life that you want. It's not, it's not like what I want for you. Don't you find it odd when people were like, I heard you need a million dollars to retire. I'm like, not me. I need a lot more because I spent more than that, you know.

But maybe you do. Maybe million dollars is all you need. And maybe that's fine. But I think people really underestimate the amount of money that you need to really feel independent. And it's such a scary concept that you don't even want to run through the analysis. And you really should because it will give you some framework for figuring out what you're going to do next.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with you. I actually really like this fine acronym because I live in Longmont, Colorado. It is sort of the mecca for early retirees. We have Mr. Money Mustache lives here, and a lot of people come to Longmont to live because it's an amazing city. And if anybody wants to move here, please let me know I could be a real estate agent. it is just a wonderful place that people come to in this space. And so therefore I know a lot of people who are retired early.

I don't know a single one of them who sits around and does nothing all day. They all do something. But because they got money figured out, their whole financial future is completely figured out. They don't have to work for money. It's interesting. I was talking to a woman recently, and we were talking about, like, she and her husband, we're going to be traveling in there. We tend to get, I don't know why.

I mean, who knows why an Upper West Side lesbian Jew gets this? But we have a lot of military people in our audience. And so I'm, like, shocked by that. But a lot of those people who have lived a life where either, you know, they are in the service or they've been in the State Department. And, you know, maybe some of them were in dangerous positions. And they're like, you know what, I can't do that for a long time. But I want to have a pathway to do something else. And they'll often really talk about how that idea of working in a job that they knew had a pension. They didn't have the pressure of like worrying about what the next or the new endeavor would be. They knew that they could kind of finance their way through it. I do think that what happens for a lot of folks is that you're so hyper focused on what you're doing today. And all of a sudden you pick your head up and, you know, you might be 61 years old and say like, well, wow, how did I get here? You know,

it's like that talking head song. Like, you know, how did I get there? And, and, and so I think it's, it's worth considering these questions while you have a chance to make a real difference in your life. Because most of us don't have pensions and we don't have the ability to kind of like glide into a second career and a new endeavor. And it's important that we, we kind of test ourselves a little bit along the way. I totally agree with you. And look, I love the next endeavor point, and I don't want to belabor too much. But I think it really encapsulates the true point of financial independence. I teach people how to build wealth.

I do it through real estate. But the goal is I want to teach people how to become financially free. And that's not the end of the sentence. And I think so many people think that is, it's I want you to be financially free so that you can, so that you can pursue your passion, so that you. can do what you feel like you're called to do so that you can take on that next endeavor. So I think it ties in fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing.

Like it is interesting how real estate, you know, I know it's sort of like the mythology of real estate. So I don't want to go crazy because like I'm, I own houses, but like I would be a very happy renter. So I don't want to go nuts with that because, you know, I don't know, the dream home. It always makes me a little crazy. But I think the idea of, you know, you're going to acquire. you're going to think about how you're building your life and you say, I want to use real

estate to help do that? What I always say to people is, do you know what that means? Like before you just like trot that out. And Henry, I got to imagine that you would like just kick anyone's ass who's just like, I'm just going to be a landlord without actually doing the work to figure out how to do that. And that's really the other part of this, which is we're having this conversation and it does require work. And so getting back to the question of like, you know, why doesn't, why doesn't a dream become a reality? I think that often it's because it takes work. It does take work. And no one's just like, hey, Mindy, here's a four family property that's going to give you passive income for the rest of your life. Good luck. Well, passive. Yeah, exactly. Good luck with that.

And so it's very, in so many of these conversations, I'm always laugh. I really, I laugh sometimes. I'm like, well, who's going to manage that property? Well, I guess I'd get a management company. Okay, well, how much does that cost? I don't know. You know, like, so, you know, what happens if this is, one of your units is empty for eight months?

What happens if we go into a recession? What if, what if? And it's funny, you know, we're talking today. We're recording this right on the heels of, you know, two bank failures, right? And someone said to me, you know, well, what explains this? I said, well, I can't tell you how many times people, so-called professionals or managers, don't ask the very important question, what if? What if?

What if it doesn't go as planned? What are my alternatives then? What if interest rates go up? What would that mean? What if we go into a recession or what if the, technology sector doesn't do very well, or what if my, the way that I thought this was going to play out doesn't play out that way. It's a funny thing, because I'm trained as a derivatives trader, okay? So like my, I'm a little bit of a math head. And so when I think about the way I was

trained, it was to look at the absolute worst case scenario first, understand what that would be, and then you look at your, you then analyze the position that you're holding and saying what would happen if things went south. If everything goes well, we don't have to worry about it, right? That's easy. But if the blind hits the fan, that's what we have to test against. And that's what I think people are uncomfortable doing. And I think it is, it's probably also why I have to like bang the drum and kill myself

to get people to do their estate planning because they just don't want to think about like death or illness. I'm like, well, would you think you're getting out alive? Because you're not getting out of this life alive. I promise. Spoiler. Spoiler alert. Come on, Jill. Don't give away the ending. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

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look at their finances, because this is something that I see too. Yeah, I mean, I think what's, I think we're really tough on ourselves, number one. I really do. I think that as much, when you talk about spending or consumption, it's like you're making a value judgment of yourself. It's like looking at yourself in the mirror. And no one, I mean, probably Henry looks like a very good looking guy and good in shape and all that.

But not many of us feel super comfortable, like bearing ourselves and looking. looking hard. And I think when you're looking at your spending, you're looking very hard in the mirror and you make value judgments and you feel ashamed. You're almost embarrassed. I was with a friend of mine who is a highfalutin lawyer. And I mean, she makes so much money. And she's like, I don't know, like, you think I could retire? I'm like doing the math in my head. I'm like, uh, yeah. I mean, I kind of know how much money you have. I said, well, how much do you spend? She goes, Oh, I don't know. And so I said, how could you actually even like, do you have an idea?

No. And I said, well, here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking you got this house. You have this house. You have this. You have three kids. You got three private schools. I said, you know, so, you know, here's what I think you spend.

Now you got to figure. And she was like, well, how did you do that so fast? I said, because I had no judgment about the way you spend your money. I could care less. But what you do is you stop and you're like, oh, that's bad. like how could I have spent that much money on a vacation or oh boy I can't believe that. And you know, funny thing is when I was a financial planner, I would always laugh about this part of the process. It's the one universal need that everybody has to kind of go through this process of like, well, what do I need?

What do I'm, what am I spending money on? Interestingly enough, the pandemic was a wild lesson in the difference between what you need and what you think you need because what you needed, even in the beginning of the pandemic, when people were freaking out, it's like, I need a roof over my head. I need to, you know, I don't even need to pay my utility bills on time because if like I lost my job in the middle of the pandemic, I was going to get a little forbearance. I was going to, but I need a roof over my head. I have to feed my family to keep my family safe. That's, that's kind of what your basic needs are, right? And then everything else is sort of gravy. And what I thought was interesting is, you know,

I'm sure you guys are familiar with all the statistics. You know, U.S. citizens saved an excess of $2.7 trillion in the pandemic. Why? Because we were stuck at home. We had nothing to spend money on. We got stimulus checks and everything was great. But we also, like, in that moment, wasn't there a lesson in what you really do need? And the difference between what you need and you want is something that is important.

I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't spend the money the way you want to spend it, but you should know what your number is. And it's much more important for you to understand what you really, you know, I need $80,000 a year to live because that's, you know, I can pay all my bills, everything's good. And when people say that to me, they'll be like, well, I could cut it back to this. You know, I spend 100 now, but I could cut it to 80. I said, don't cut it back. Let's just run your numbers assuming you want to do exactly what you want to do. You don't want to change a thing.

Then let's see. Then you can make different decisions because maybe you want to spend that money. Maybe you want to do that, but it is, we're kind of tough on ourselves. And I think that having the information about your consumption or your spending is kind of a critical part of your reset. Because if you don't have that, you're kind of taking a big risk. And we don't want people, I mean, it's okay to risk. I'm a risk taker with my career and my life. But I would hate to take a risk without understanding what that risk really was.

I wholeheartedly agree. What I love about how you explain that and how you talk about it in the book is it's drawing attention to how emotional. Like, I mean, and you do a great job of never saying the word, but the B word, right? Drawing attention to how emotional budgeting can be. And I'd never thought about it like that before. And when I was listening to you say it, I immediately thought, well, this is what took you so long to sit down and actually do it. was there was so much emotion tied to it that it was like almost draining before I ever even started. And so I just told myself that I would go into the exercise, not emotional. And I remember you referencing like, hey, you just write down your debts. I'm not saying you have to do anything about them right now. Just write them down, right? And there's so much power in doing that. So I love, I love that approach

and how you help us all address that how emotional that really is. And it's perfect to lead into like what your fabulous five is because like it's essentially a blueprint. So talk to us about the walk us through the fabulous five and what that means and how it relates. Well, um, because I'm in network news, I have to have a catchy title for that. So that's why I had that. Um, so you know, listen, every time I'd have a conversation with somebody. So it would be like, Mindy and Henry are on the phone. They're a couple. They're asking me these questions. And I would just run through these, like, what do you have? And I'd ask these questions. And I was like, oh, these are actually five real steps. And that's how I listened to a lot of the podcasts that I had, you know, use these

conversations to kind of remind myself the process that became very natural to me. So the first step in the Fabulous Five is to really calculate your resources, meaning not just the assets, not just I have this much in the bank, I have this much in retirement, I have this much in my house is worth this much, but also your income. Because often, when you are, when you're looking at your resources, the funny thing about that is that people will often overlook the value of the benefits they get. And then when you don't have them, you're like, oh my God, that was worth so much. I didn't realize it. And ask anybody, like, who's self-employed to, you know, like, oh, it was pretty sweet when the employer was, you know,

I might have had to pay something for my health insurance, but it's not as much as I have to bail on my own. And so when we talk about resources, I think it's assets and it's also your income and it's your benefits. And that's just, again, we're just making a list. This is not math. No math. Promise, we're making a list. So that's all we need to do. The second step is just, again, we looked at the left side of your balance sheet. Let's look at the right side. Your debt. I list them out. List out whatever it is. Don't judge it. Don't be like, oh, I can't believe if I still have credit card debt. So what? You do. You are where you are. Who cares?

I am not a finger-wagging personal finance person. I couldn't care less. Actually, the funniest thing I once asked somebody was like, how'd you get that much debt? Did you have fun? And he's like, you know, I did. And I was like, okay, good. At least he had fun.

So we want people to just understand what are the debts that are out there lingering. The third step is to really think about your housing situation. And I point this out not so much as a, as an asset kind of, as a house as an asset. But I think more that sometimes we learned a lesson amid COVID about like our homes are now our offices in some cases. So what does that housing situation look like? Or gosh, I really felt so far away from my aging parents. I don't feel comfortable with that. Like that's something I need to address. Or you know what I learned? Every one of my friends went off and bought a house. I am not that person. That's not something I really

want to do. So that's a very important piece. Then, of course, the fourth step is to consider your spending habits, which is our whole consumption conversation, which, you know, look, it's not fun, but you just have to look at it and have it down. It's a piece of paper. Finally, you know, when we think about making these big changes, there are other people who were inevitably involved and affected by it, right? So if Mindy and I are married and we said to our our kids. You know what? We're going to pay for half of your college education. That's what we're going to do, right? And then I say to Mindy, honey, I'm blowing up my life and I'm not going to make as much money and therefore we can't pay for the kids college. Well, you know what? I already told the

kids I was paying for half of college. So how do I feel about that obligation that I made? Like, what do I feel in that moment? Can I break that obligation? I mean, people break obligations all the time. but, you know, did you tell your siblings that you were going to help out in terms of, like, again, your aging parents where you're going to try to do something different? I think it's important when you're making a reset to check in with the people who would be impacted by that. And ask yourself that question. Hey, wait a second. Does that blow up a game plan that someone else is following? And I think it's really important for spouses.

when I've talked to people, usually they've come on and they're sort of on the same page. But sometimes every so often it would be, there was a little friction where I would talk to somebody and, you know, one would say, I'm on board. Let's go. Let's do it. And the other would be like, I'm worried. I need to be convinced. And you have to be on the same page.

If, you know, I presume you want to stay in your relationship, you have to be on the same page. and be able to navigate that. It's a scary conversation. And it's also really scary, obviously, if you have a lifestyle, if you created a life with your family. So now I'm married to Henry. Henry and I are married. We have three kids.

We live in a nice neighborhood. And now I want to try to do something different. And that difference may be something that Henry's like, I'm not on board with that. I didn't sign up for that. We have a life. I love our life. Like, is there a plan B here? And that's one other critical aspect of having a reset.

It's not an all or nothing calculation. There are many permutations to resetting your life. And you can confidently go through this process and feel like you're going to come to a different outcome. And then come back and be like, you know what? I like where I am. I don't want to actually, the change that I think I want maybe more. then I can bite off right now. Maybe I can do a half step and get myself towards that end.

So we have people that are listening to this show right now who are thinking about their finances. They're saying, I want to make a reset. How do you start to plan a reset or start to think about a reset? Well, I mean, the first thing you do is you buy my book. And what's that book called again? It's called The Great Money Reset. Thank you for asking. I think that you run through the numbers first. I really do think that the Fabulous Five is like a great place to start because it's concrete, you know. And when you think about that, you're going to spend a bunch of time thinking about your, you know, whatever it is you decide you want to do.

We have to have a goal in mind. But, you know, you go through those five steps. You look at your spending. You may come to that and be like, you know, I need to go ask my boss for a raise because I'm actually just. underpaid. Or you might say, you know what I really need is I need some more education and I need to think about that. Or you may find that you need to, like, you're thinking about I want to start a business. And maybe it's too dramatic to just jump out of your real life job and start a business. So I think that the steps that I lay out are a way to walk through a process that will hopefully

give you more information on the other side. And it may or may not result in a, major reset. It may be a mini reset. It might be a reset in just your own way of thinking about your life. And I think it is vitally important that as you go through the process, that you, again, you don't judge it, that you are open-minded, that you realize that there are parts of this process that maybe you're not even thinking about. You might, again, you might be like, hey, I'm going to take a step back in my income. And then I say to you, well, that's great, because now we can convert your traditional IRA into a Roth IRA, and we're going to convert it at a lower tax bracket. So really, you know, the IRS code is going to help you out. It's going to be your friend.

And so I think that as I wrote the book, I realized that there were a lot of different ways to do this, and we just want to give people choices. It's opportunities. You know, what is, again, we talked about this. Financial independence is truly about giving you opportunities and options. So here's, I mean, here's, so here's what I think I'm hearing. Like, getting started, it's all about getting it down, writing it down, right? So going through that fabulous five, and that might lead you to go and solve a problem that you either didn't know exist or solve a problem that you knew existed, just hadn't faced the facts yet, right? And then you can make your plan. And so talk to us a little bit about what, what do you think is, like, what's the thing you want to leave the audience?

with any advice you would want to give them to follow up on those action steps. You know, listen, one of the things that has always helped me is to have kind of a buddy to walk you through the process also. And like, I'm that person that when people come on the program, I think that often they are not coming to me as Jill Schlesinger, CBS News, Business Analyst, certified financial planner. It's kind of like my aunt Jill role. So, you know, that like I'm your friendly aunt who is going to kick your ass if you're not if you're not being real with yourself, but it's going to be kind and loving and is going to try to help you understand what the opportunity is. And I think that it is really good to have people like that in your life. For me, it was a friend of

mine, Maureen, who was when I was trying to figure out, you know, I was a financial planner and an investment advisor and I had owned a company for 14 years and I'd sold the company. But part of the job of running my company was I would appear on TV. I'd hosted a radio show and it was a great way to get business in the door. And when I sold the company, Maureen was just so helpful because she would ask me these questions. She's like, well, tell me about what you like about your job. And I was like, you know, I really, like the whole money management is kind of boring to me. I've been doing it for a long time. I know it sounds funny because it's like, people think that's the sexy part. It's the most boring part. And I was like, I really like this media stuff. It's really interesting. It's so impactful.

Right. That was the thing that I realized that like one-on-one with the client is amazing. But when you have a broad way to reach people, you are so able to really touch so many more folks and give them what I think is sort of like the easiest message in the world. Like you can do this. Right. And so she, so Morgan's like, you need a pink binder. I'm like, what's a pink binder? I'm like, what's a pink binder. She pulls out like a three ring binder. And, you know, this is a little old school. But like, we would put, we put tabs in it. And she's like, for the first part, she wrote money down. And she's like, you know your money stuff. You fill this in. And then she said, you know, now let's do a tab for television. Let's do a tab for radio. Let's do a tab for writing. Let's do a tab for consulting.

And then let's start writing down everything, every person you think you should be talking to about making this reset and who can give you feedback and what you need to do. And it was a way of organizing myself. It was a way to kind of put my hopes and dreams into action items. And I think that that's really the issue that we do get stuck. And we maybe, and it's not even like so much work. It's just that you have to get over the hurdle and take little bite-sized steps that you can, then you can do this and understand that it may lead you to a place you never could have imagined. I think that's the coolest part. Like, I don't know your story, Henry.

I don't know your story, Mindy. I think that if you met me, you know, 15 years ago before I was this person, I was running a little business and I was making a pile of money and that was great. But I was running this little business. And to imagine that, you know, there are two Emmy Awards and two Gracie Awards and there's a huge audience and a fun job and wonderful colleagues and the best executive producer in the world of my podcast and my radio show. I couldn't have imagined that. I didn't know where this would lead. And it is shocking to me that I think that and sort of sad that I feel like so many people

shut themselves off to the potential. And it doesn't have to be a huge leap. It has to be a considered choice. And it does mean some work. It does mean. It does mean. that you're going to have to run through some analysis, and you're going to have to kind of get real with yourself. So I'm not a therapist, and I think that the problem with the emotional part of money is, you know, money's concrete, right? So so much of our emotional life can get projected

onto this concrete thing called money. It's why couples fight about money. They're not fighting about money. They're fighting about a million other things, but we can express it over money, or that someone told me recently, like, oh, I just had this huge fight with my father about money because, you know, he won't tell me the details of his financial life and he's 90 years old and this is

ridiculous. And I said, well, he's just fearful. He doesn't want to talk about his death. And we have to find a way in. That's it. That's what's happening. So often this fight this thing or this worry and this anxiety and it's money because money is concrete and I can just push out my emotions and push it onto money. And we can untangle those emotions from the reality. And then you can have more control over it, which is kind of fabulous. Jill, I love everything that you have said. This is going to take work if you want to change your financial situation. And I love that you're not sugarcoating that. You will have to do the work, write down the numbers, figure out where you are, where you want to be, and make a plan to get there, but it's not insurmountable. You can do it. Like Justin Donald said,

a couple of episodes ago, live life by design, not default. And I think your book will help our listeners get themselves to the design that they want. Jill, where can people find more about you? Everything in my life. Not everything, but many things in my life or on my website, at Jill onmoney.com. And, you know, that's where I write. That's where I put my video segments. You know, when you want to see, you know, does like my mother likes to go to the website sometimes and she'll say like, I didn't like your hair in that segment.

You know, who did your hair in that site? So TV stuff, radio, two podcasts, lots of writing, resources. And, you know, anyone who wants to write a question for me and to come on the program, we have a little contact us button. So if anyone wants to do that, and of course you can buy the book there, if you so desire. And the book is called

The Great Money Reset, Change Your Work, Change Your Wealth, Change Your Life, by Jill Schlesinger. Jill, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you, and we will talk to you soon.

Thanks so much for having me. It was a blast. You guys are great. All right, Henry, that was Jill Schlesinger. That was so much fun. Holy cow, I could have talked to her for another hundred hours.

I love her. She's my new favorite, best, best aunt friend. I would be hurt, except she is so amazing. I will let her be your favorite. I love her advice. Write down your numbers in a non-judgmental way. Facts are facts. Just write them down.

Bam, this is how much I make. If you make $100,000, great. If you make $20,000, great. That is a fact. That is not an opinion. It is a fact. Write it down. Do you have $10,000 in debt?

That is a fact. Write it down. Write down your facts. Figure out what you want your dream life to look like and then review your numbers and your life goals and make a plan to get from your current financial situation to the dream life. What is your next endeavor and what do you need to do to get there? I love her suggestions. I love her advice and I love her. Jill, we love you. Henry and I both like equally. Besties. All right,

Henry, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pocket Money podcast. Oh my goodness. No, it does not. Henry Washington, what is going on with you and where can people find out more about you? Oh, awesome. I get a moment in the sunshine. Yes, you can find out more about me on Instagram is the best place. I'm at the Henry Washington on Instagram or you can check out my website at henrywashington.com. Now that wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Henry Washington and I am Indy Jensen saying, see you later, Aller. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel

at YouTube.com slash biggerpockets money. BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.