BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 436: How to Get Rich Slowly and Retire Earlier Than Most with a Modest Portfolio

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

“Get rich slowly” is a concept that most people in the FIRE community can get behind. “Time off,” on the other hand, seems to go against the idea of grinding to financial independence now and waiting until later in life to enjoy the spoils. Today’s guest is bucking this trend—using his financial freedom to support a “retired” lifestyle that includes traveling the world, discovering new hobbies, and learning new skills! Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money podcast! Today, we’re speaking with J.D. Roth, founder of the personal finance blog, Get Rich Slowly. Initially launched to document his quest out of debt, this popular blog helped J.D. fast-track his journey toward financial independence. He now considers himself “retired,” although the more risk-averse person might say it’s a little too soon. If you’ve ever considered taking some time away from work but fear you don’t have the nest egg to support it, this is the episode you need to hear! J.D. tackles a handful of issues that FI-focused individuals don’t always touch on—including the importance of mental health and using a “mini” retirement to decompress. He also talks about why he’s not worried about his modest portfolio and shares the three five-year plans you need to prepare for any curveball life might throw in your direction! In This Episode We Cover How to implement a “mini” retirement on your journey to FIRE Prioritizing your mental health in a fast-paced, work-first culture How to take time off from work without blowing your nest egg A day in the life of someone who is taking a year off from working Important tips for saving more money and retiring even earlier And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Join BiggerPockets for FREE Mindy on BiggerPockets Scott's Instagram Grab Scott’s Book, “Set for Life” Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Listen to The Real Estate InvestHER Show Join The Real Estate InvestHER Community on Facebook Register for an Upcoming InvestHER Event Money Moment Finance Friday: How Sabbaticals Make You Happier, Healthier, and Wealthier Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-436   Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview one of the OGs of the personal finance blogging community, J.D. Roth from get rich slowly.org and talk about life after retirement. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me as always is my Get Rich Slowly co-host, Scott Trench. Thank you, Mindy. Great to be here with my Got Rich swiftly by investing in literal rocket ships. Co-host, Mindy Jensen. Scott and I are here to make financial independence. less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time

investments in assets like real estate, start your own business, or just kind of understand what a day in the life of a financially independent person looks like. We'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself toward those dreams. Scott, we have a new segment of this show. It's called The Money Moment where we should share a money hack, tip, or trick to help you on your financial journey. And today's money moment is, do you have a habit of spending too much online? Try using the three-day rule. Once you add an item to your cart, wait three days before purchasing.

Not only does this rule help curb impulse spending, but sometimes brands will email you coupons if you leave items sitting in your cart. Do you have a money tip for us? Email money moment at biggerpockets.com. Now, you'll notice I didn't take that tip today. At the very end of the show, you will hear that JD shares an amazing book recommendation. And I went and bought it while we were talking. I was so impressed with his review of the book.

And I cannot wait to read that. However, otherwise, that's a great tip. Scott, I am super excited to bring J.D. Roth to the show. I can't believe it took us 432 episodes to get him on. What is wrong with us? I don't know. JD has just really kind of been a pioneer in the financial independence space in the personal finance space has really been, you know, doing this for like 20, 25 years, providing great advice, helping tons of people and then living his best life. And it's just really awesome to learn from him. I think you really admire what he's built. And, you know, just as a quick heads up, this is obviously one of the stories about someone who is financially independent and a glimpse into their life. And I think you really admire what he's built. And, you know, just just as a quick heads up, this is obviously one of the stories about someone who is financially independent and a glimpse into their life. And, which we think is really important to emphasize here at Bigger Pockets Money. This is the end goal

for a lot of folks is getting to this point and then reaping the rewards. And no, J.D. is not a mega millionaire here with millions or tens of millions of dollars in assets. He'll talk about his net worth. It's something that's very achievable for a middle or upper middle class American over a 10 to 15 year journey to fire. So this is a very realistic financial situation. and these are the opportunities and challenges and struggles that many folks who are successful on the journey to fire will share. Absolutely. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full

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accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets.

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I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact. impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the anxious generation for parenting perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real

progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. J.D. Roth is an OG personal finance blogger who founded get richlily.org to document his quest to get out of debt. Over time, he learned how to save and how to invest, and today he's managed to reach early retirement. Actually, a long time ago, he managed to reach early retirement. He wants to help you master your money and your life. No scams, no gimmicks, no get rich quick schemes, get rich slowly. Just smart money advice to help you reach your goals. J.D. Roth, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Thanks, Mindy. You're very excited. I love the enthusiasm. I'm always excited to talk to J.D. Roth. All right. So for people who don't know you, the one person listening who doesn't know you, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get involved in personal finance and how did you start blogging. Okay, well, so the start blogging thing is easier to answer. I've been blogging since before blog was even a word. So back in 1994, I think it was, I made my first website. In 95, 96, I started reading what were then called web journals. They weren't called blogs. And in 1997, I started trying to write my own web journal. It was trying to document my weight loss at the time. And by 98, I had started writing about movies and cats and computers and comic books and just having a lot of fun.

So I started blogging over 25 years ago. But again, we didn't call it blogging back then that word had not invented. At the time, I was deep in debt. My parents were bad with money. I didn't have anybody to learn good money habits from. So I grew up and I was bad with money. And I was just really struggling. Eventually, I had some people recommend some personal finance books to me, including Your Money or Your Life by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin and The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey, which, of course, those are two huge books in the personal finance community.

So I read those books, and the way I process things is I write. I've always been like that, so I write. So I wrote an article for my personal blog about, I call it How to Get Rich Slowly, because reading those two books in a bunch. I went to the library, checked out a bunch of personal finance books. I thought that the theme that I saw was there's no reliable way to get rich quickly. But if you do the right things, you can get rich slowly. So I wrote that article. It went the 2005 version of viral. And about a year later, I was looking to start a website to try to make some spare cash to help me get out of debt. And I thought, oh, I'll start a site called Get Rich Slowly. And that is how the blog was born. An overnight success in just 25 short years. Right. Exactly. So, 2023, fast forwarding just a little bit, is the year of JD, the year you give yourself

permission to do you. And now we're halfway through. How has your decompression journey been? It has been awesome and it has been interesting. So just to get a little bit of context, you know, I started get rich slowly in 2006. Then I sold it. I sold it actually in 2009, but I stuck around until 2012, writing it and running it and stuff. And then after 2012, I took a few years where I actually did try to be retired.

Then I started another website, and eventually I bought Gittresoli back. And I just found that, oh, my gosh, it's so much work. It's such a headache. And, you know, I've got other things going on in my life, too. I struggle with my mental health. my girlfriend and I have moved. 2020 was, I mean, 2020, 2020, 2020 was a really shitty year for me.

I had a lot of stuff going on in my life. My mom died, my best friend slash cousin died, three pets died. All this other stuff was going on. It was just like, oh. So I reached the end of last year and I'm like, man, I have got to do something for myself. And so I decided, 2003,

I'm going to make it the year of JD. And so what I've done is given myself permission to put myself first, which is a hard thing for me to do. I don't know about you, but for me, I put other people first or I try to, that that's my goal anyhow. And so to say, no, this year is for me and what I want to do. It was difficult at first. Now we're about six months into it.

And I'm like, okay, I kind of like this. What are some examples of things you said no to and things you said yes to regarding your, you know, putting yourself first? And how has that impacted kind of how your mental health and how you, how you, your relationship with yourself? So examples of things I've said no to. Well, first of all, let's take financial bloggy. You know, I've been writing about personal finance now since 2006. And I'm burned out on it. I was burned out on it many years ago, which is why I sold the site originally.

I'm burned out on it again. So I've decided that I'm going to walk away from writing about money. And I've turned the site over to my business partner, Tom. And I just want to get back to doing what I used to do, writing about the caps and the computers and comic books. Just writing about everyday life. It's fun for me and people seem to enjoy it. So that's an example of the stuff I'm trying to reject is work. I'm also trying to kill some of my bad habits.

I like computer games. I've been playing computer games my entire life. And so I've tried to set aside the computer game that I've been addicted to most for the past 10 years. And I've done a good job. I used to play about two hours a day. I think I've played two hours total since middle of April. So that's really good. But I've also been, it's not just that I'm saying no to things during the year at JD.

I'm also trying to say yes to things. So an example of that is I'm trying to learn about art. I've never done anything artistic in my life, I mean, outside of writing. I've never done anything with visual arts. So I've been trying to teach myself to draw. In fact, when we get done with this interview, what I'm going to do is pull out the iPad and sit down and do some more clumsy sketches. But I've also been doing solo travel. I'd love to travel with people, but my cousin, who is my primary travel partner, he died last year, so he can't come with me.

Kim, my girlfriend, I love traveling with her, but she has a job. How can you believe it? And so I decided I need to give myself permission to do some solo travel. And so that's what I've done. I spent most of the month of June on a cruise ship, believe it or not, going up the coast of Norway all the way up to the Arctic Circle and then back down to Iceland. And that was amazing. That was a chance for me to try to do nothing.

Just decompress, do nothing. Go to the ship's gym, sit in the ship's spa, read mystery books, just do nothing. It was hard. I love this. Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's a really rough 2022 to have the ability to kind of go go down on this journey and see its kind of power for what it's doing for you. It is just awesome here. Has this been a financial burden? Are you unretired now as a result of this? Or how do you,

how do you think about the impact this has had on that aspect? Well, that's a good question because, you know, travel, well, travel doesn't have to be expensive. And in this case, I've done my best to keep it as cheap as possible. I'm not a travel hacker like some people we know. but I listen to what the travel hackers do, and when I can incorporate their advice, I do incorporate it. So I guess, Scott, what I would say is I'm not the most frugal person in the first place, and I'm willing to take on a lot more risk than many other people are. So I talk to a lot of people in the financial independence community who are risk-averse, and they're the ones who tend to stick around in their jobs for five, ten years longer than they actually need to,

like, what if something happened? Maybe I need more money. And I'm just the opposite of that. I'm like, well, I'll figure something out. So I'm not, I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not spending a huge amount, but I am spending more than I would if I just stayed home, right? And I'm still financially independent. It's all good. It's, uh, but I'm, I consider myself right on that edge. If we go by the strict definitions, I'm like walking a fine line. And I think most people who pursue this, would not do that. Okay, well, let's talk money since you brought it up. Let's look at your portfolio in terms of percentages or fine number or whatever. You don't have to give exact dollar figures. But what does your net worth look like now in comparison to when you officially

retired after however many years of retirement and spending and all of that? Like, do you look at your portfolio and your net worth and think, ooh, I'm going to have to go get a job. No, I don't think that, but I think I could get a job if I needed to. And that's part of what keeps me sane, I guess. So this is a great question. It's something that I think about a lot. If you look at my net worth today compared to when I reached financial independence, it's exactly the same. Maybe not to the penny, but, you know, within a percentage or two, it's the same. And it's been the same now for 14 years. And I think for a lot of people, they would view that as a failure. They'd be like, oh my God, you should be accumulating money.

You should be accumulated. But I view this as a success because I'm living, I'm maintaining my nest egg. And I've got exactly the same net worth as I had 14 years ago. And I've been able to enjoy life with the rest of the money. Right. I've taken the growth that I, and using that money. And this isn't a deliberate thing. I don't want to, I don't want people to think that I'm sitting down with spreadsheets and making this happen. It's just worked out this way.

You know, Rameit, he talks about mindful spending or conscious spending, and I'm a huge proponent of that. So, I do spend on things like travel. I do spend on things like books. But I cut back on tons of other stuff because a lot of other things just do not matter to me. That is something that I have advocated. for for years. Spend on things that matter and cut back on things that don't matter. If you don't

care about the thing that don't spend money on it, that's just silly. And, you know, spending money on something to keep up with the judges when you don't even care about it is, is ridiculous. What are some of the things that you have cut back on? For a long time, answer would have been closed. And I guess I still don't spend a lot on clothes relative to other people's budgets. just I've changed how I used to shop a lot of thrift stores and now I'll buy like one or two quality, a very expensive piece of clothing per year and I'm happier that way. So coming back on clothes, for a long time, I've lived in a very small home. We lived in a 1,200 square foot home out in the middle of the country. So that was one way. I don't need a big fancy house.

And so I guess housing would be even this house that we have here that we're living in now, It's slightly more expensive than the house we used to live in, but we were able to pretty much just transfer the equity over. I had to put down a down payment, and that's the difference. So coming back on clothing, cutting back on housing, in a way, the travel, too. I mean, I do travel, and it's important to me, but the way I travel is often very different than the way many people travel. Because, for example, I don't mean fancy lodging. A fancy hotel is wasted on me. So I stay in the cheapest possible place.

I'm happy to stay in a shack as long as I can spend a lot of money on food. I just went to a Michelin Star restaurant in a Recovic, Iceland. And that was the most expensive meal I've ever had in my life. It is also one of my favorite memories of my life, too. How about the mental aspect here of, it sounds like you've basically gone through this journey of retirement. in an official capacity twice now. What is that like from an elemental perspective? How does one kind of adjust to that new reality after selling their business,

which is, you know, an abrupt or there's likely an abrupt change or even maybe there isn't, maybe there's a gradual process there? And then what's it like going through it a second time? So the first time it was a gradual transition because I sold the site, but I stayed on for three years to manage it and to run it. And so I could not tear myself away. And even after I did tear myself away, I felt this emotional attachment to the community and felt like I had deserted them.

And so I could never really tear myself away. And plus, my identity was tied up in my work, right? My identity was tied up in personal finance. And I know a lot of people go through that with their jobs. Their identity is tied up in their jobs. So the first time I retired, it was great because I was able to do things that I had always neglected. I got in shape. I learned Spanish. I started to travel. I started to learn to play the guitar. My girlfriend and I took 15 months to travel around the United States in an RV. It was fantastic.

And when I look back, that period from roughly 2012, 2012, 2013 to 2016, that is the best time of my life. So now in 2023, what I'm trying to do is, you know, again, I said my 2020, too was rough, but I'd also allowed my mental health and my physical health to decline. And I think largely is because I was back at Get Rich slowly doing this work and feeling this pressure when I didn't need to do it. And now that I've spent six months trying to be retired, and that's what I keep telling people is I'm trying to be retired and mostly succeeding. It's been wonderful because I'm again allowing myself to spend the time to get physically healthy again. I've been working on my mental health. And it's all just coming together. And I feel like

I'm more myself. And when I am more myself and when I'm happier, I'm not just better for me. I'm a better partner for Kim. I'm a better friend to my friends. I'm just better for the world in general when I do put myself first, which seems counterintuitive, I have to say. No, I'm struggling a little bit with exactly what you're saying now. I'm wondering if you have a any guilty feelings in taking a step back. Do you have any guilt in being, quote, unquote, selfish and putting yourself first? Because I absolutely do. So what makes you feel, I do, but I'm curious what makes you feel guilty. Well, this isn't about me. It's about you. But it makes me feel selfish. So why would I put myself first when I could put myself last

and put everybody else first? Yeah. No. I. 100% I've had those feelings, I've had to wrestle with those feelings, and in fact, that's a large part. So when I took this solo trip on the cruise ship and off the cruise ship, it wasn't just for fun. I mean, it was, but it was also meant for me to have a month where I could just reflect on life, reflect on what it is I want to do, and try to get squared away in my head. and I did a lot of reading. I read one book over and over again.

It's Tickna Hans, The Miracle of Mindfulness. I just read this four times on the boat. And I'd read it in the past. And this is a classic of mindfulness literature. And it says all the things you would expect it to say about being present in the moment. And I think being present in the moment in many ways, I've been thinking lately that a lot of Buddhist thought seems pretty selfish in a way because it's about just being here, being now, and being with yourself. And yet at the same time, I think that makes, like I said earlier, makes me

happier. And when I'm happier, it helps me be better for the world at large. So yeah, I hear what you're saying about feeling guilty and feeling selfish, but trying to like get squared away on or understanding that this actually makes me better for everybody else around me helps me get over that selfishness or that feeling of selfishness. Yeah, when I am not in the moment, I'm thinking about the 396 things that I have to do. And I'm not paying attention to what you're saying. I'm just kind of nodding and, uh-huh, yeah. Wait, what did you say?

Or I just agreed to do something that I wasn't even paying attention to. So being present is really important. But so why should I feel guilty about pushing away everything else and focus seeing in the now and paying attention to my surroundings. And, you know, when I can put away everything and focus, then it's a better relationship all around. And when I'm happy, everybody else is happy. Exactly. And you said something else just now. Like you said that, oh, if you're distracted and you say yes to things and you're like, oh, wait, wouldn't I just say yes to? This is another thing. I'm realizing that when I was happiest a decade ago,

I was deliberately saying no to almost everything that came my way. And so much of what I'm doing now is also learning to say no. No, I don't want to do a speaking gig. No, I don't want to write this for your website. It brings up the same feelings of guilt and selfishness, but at the same time, my time is mine. And I need to use it in the ways that are going to make my life better so that I can then be able to help make other people's lives better.

You know, going back to how money kind of plays a role in providing these options for you, how would you describe your portfolio relative to other folks in the fire community? Are you more conservative with your portfolio, more aggressive? You said it hasn't moved much in the last decade or so. Is this an enormous pile of money? Is it something that would be attainable for someone working, you know, a full-time job within a 10-15-year period? How do folks think about that? And how do you, I think a lot of people would have a lot of trouble with a portfolio that didn't move in, move much in 10 years.

Doesn't seem to bother you at all, though. And you've been, you know, able to really do burn a lot of experiments and I really work on your relationship with yourself with your situation. So I'm actually pretty public with my finances and what I have. The structure of the portfolio, I would say, is probably very typical of the fire community in that it's primarily in index funds and real estate. state. Well, my net worth is about 1.6, 1.6 million. And I've been public about that on the blog before. I've never shared it on a podcast so it feels odd to say it out loud. About a million of that is invested in some REITs, but primarily in stock market index funds. And then the rest of that is in a variety of other things like the house. There's a lot of home equity in the place where we live. But I also have invested. investments in other companies. So not all of it is liquid, but still, I feel like for a lot of people, this would seem like, oh my God, I read the stuff on Reddit. I go to the Financial Independence subreddit. I go to the Fat FIRE subreddit, and I read this. And there are people who are like, oh, my God, you can't retire with less than $3 million. Financial Samurai, I read his stuff, and he thinks you need to have $3, $4 million, whatever it is. And I'm like, well,

it really depends on your lifestyle, right? And I don't feel like I deprive myself in any way. I have a life that I love. I do things that I love. I enjoy. I can't do everything. There's no question. I have to make some choices where I'm like,

oh, no, I'm sorry. I can't go on this trip to Europe with you, which is fine. I can't have a Tesla. It's fine. I don't need a Tesla. And so I'm able to prioritize what's important to me. and my million dollars of the invested assets plus my real estate, it all works out.

And, you know, like I say, if I get desperate, well, maybe then I'll write another book or start another block or go get a job. But so far, not even close to desperate. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch.

Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just. just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets.

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Do you feel any pressure to do more or make more money or like there's this always be hustling? And there are some bloggers who blog about how much money they make blogging. And there are bloggers who are constantly posting net worth statements. And this is how much money I made last month. And look at all of my income streams and look at all of the money that I'm making. And do you have any pressure to do you feel any pressure to do that too because you are from the beginning? Sure, absolutely. How do you deal with that? I want to make it clear that I never set out. When I started blogging, I was doing it just as an outlet. So I never sat out to make money

from the blog. And in fact, I had to have a fellow blogger come to me and say, J.D., why don't you have that? Back in the day, I had the top search result for savings accounts. If you search for savings accounts, get rich slowly came up first. And I didn't have that monetized in any way. And I had a fellow blogger. It was actually Jim Wang from wallet hacks. He came in and he said, J.D., why don't you have your savings account page monetized? What do you mean? And so he had to explain it to me. And once I monetized that, well, things took God. So anyway, I hang out with people. I go to blogging conferences. I participate in mastermind groups. And I hear how much people make. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. So of course, I'm like, oh, I could do this too. Why don't I do

this too. And I think the answer is it doesn't feel true to who I am, right? So I started my blog to help myself and to try to help other people, not to make money off them. And I know that it's possible to help people and make money at the same time. I'm perfectly aware of that. And another thing is when I start monetizing what I'm doing, it feels like work. Instead of feeling like something fun to do, instead of feeling like a hobby, it feels like, oh my God, this is a job. So that's kind of a long answer about, like, yes, I do feel the pressure. But then I also feel the pressure because we live in a society that's deeply steeped in the Protestant work ethic and this idea that I'm still youngish, I'm 54, I'm healthy, I should be working, I should be productive, I should be doing

something demonstrably make society better right now. And so for me to take this time off, it's difficult. And one of the things I've been doing is like reading books about how to do nothing. In reading essays, there's a, someplace I got it, Bertrand Russell, the philosopher, even a hundred years ago, he wrote essay on, I think it's called a praise of idleness. And he was talking even then about how there's all this pressure in modern society back in 1923, or whatever it was, to just be go, go, go, go, and of course, that's only gotten infinitely worse by, well, not infinitely worse of magnitude worse in the past hundred years. There's just this pressure to do things and be things. And we no longer take the time to just decompressed and be just exist.

And I think that's unfortunate. So I'm going to jump in here with this. Today, I woke up at 545, hopped on a bike, did a workout, ate breakfast while, you know, hanging out with my baby and wife when they were up, when they got up and all that, drove to work, got in at work around 815 was in meetings from 830 until 1 o'clock now. We're doing this podcast, which is my favorite part of the day. Another couple of meetings after that, we're going to get dinner with a coworker who's flew into town. I'll be back at 630 or so to put baby to sleep and hang out for a little bit. And then I'll do a little bit more emails and go to bed. So that's life of the CEO. What's a day in the life of JD at this point for you? And I want to get really jealous here.

Well, first of all, Scott, I want to say that I've never been that busy, but I mean, if you're happy doing that, that's awesome. You can find balance and pleasure and enjoyment and fulfill it from that kind of lifestyle. Absolutely pursue it. Typical day for me, this is a great question. Okay, so I get up, I drink my coffee, and as I'm drinking my coffee, I'm reading what's going on in the world. I think most people do this or many people do this. after I'm done with my coffee, I take the dog for a walk. We're usually out for an hour, hour and a half, walk it all over Corballis.

I live in Corballis, Oregon. I come home, go to the gym. It's usually after the dog walk. I'll go to the gym three, four, five times a week. I come back, make myself something to eat. And then I've got the afternoon to myself. And so I get to decide, okay, what is it I'm going to do? Often I have house tasks.

I have a full list in front of me a house task that I need to do. But I've also, this year, I've made it a point to try to get back into reading, reading for pleasure. For so long, and I know many people have struggled with this recently, when I was younger, I read for pleasure all the time, but somehow over the years,

I've gotten so that I can only read short form stuff. And I think it's because of the Internet. It's kind of condition. me and I've gotten so that I don't read just science fiction novels like I used to. And so I'm trying to make myself read. Right now, the book that I'm really enjoying is this book from Rick Rubin called The Creative Act, A Way of Being. This is one of the best books I've ever read. It's just fantastic. So, okay, I read, I do stuff around the house. I might run errands. And then in the evening, once Kim is done with work and she comes home, I make her dinner. We, we, we'll

watch something random on television. And I've got a couple of things that I'm doing. Like, I have this thing, we have a second run movie theater in town. And so my thing is every Wednesday night when they play their second run movie, I go see it. So like last night I went and watched Batman from 1989. And I think the next movie is Raiders the Lost Arc. And then standby me is coming up. So I go do that every Wednesday night. It's just a way to get out of the house and do stuff. But what I really want to do is take art classes. So that's an awesome day. Like I, yeah, And J.D., I love what I just described to you. It's a full action-packed. I don't have a minute to breathe. It's this classic representation of the Protestant work. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it like that before you said it. And it's good, you know. But I also look forward to the day and, you know, at some point down the line when I can, you know, that life, that life the day that you just described sounds like a wonderful, wonderful Thursday, you know, a third weekday to just go, go out and hang out. or Wednesday at the at the movies. And so I think that that's, that's the goal for people is to get to that. And, and kind of enjoy those things and explore these different outlets. So one question I'd have as a follow up to this is, you know, yes, I'm, I'm working full time currently and I have this, this busy schedule here. Is there a book you'd recommend or a resource you'd recommend that can help say, hey, go go check this out and you can begin bringing elements of what you just described into your life today. You don't have to wait.

until you're, you know, jobless or whatever, fully retired, you can do parts of this mind. You can adopt parts of this mindset much earlier than that. It seems strange for me to recommend this Rick Ruben book. So Rick Ruben is a music producer. He's a very prominent music producer. And he wrote this book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. And I'm not finished with it. I'm only about halfway through.

But I really, in a way, it's the answer to the question that you're asking. because what he's urging people to do is to embrace life as a creative person. He says everyone is creative, no matter what they're doing. Whatever your job is, you are creating. And he urges people, in a way, is also very Buddhist, very Zen. He urges people to be more aware of their surroundings. And I think this is something that even somebody is busy as you, Scott, could probably find a way to set aside 20 minutes each day.

Okay, here's something that people have always told me I need to do, and that's meditate. I have never been able to meditate. I've tried so many times, and I have that monkey mind. It just jumps all over the place. And I think the issue that I've had is I'm trying to get all the thoughts out of my head. And what Rig Rubin wants you to do is sit and just notice everything. And so I think somebody like you, Scott, you probably have 20 minutes you get set aside to either do traditional meditation where you're trying to like just notice the thoughts as they come up and mean or do the Rick Rubin thing where you're like just paying attention to the world around you and trying to soak it all in and to appreciate it and be grateful for it. I think that's one thing that almost anyone could.

I will definitely check that out. Yeah, I need to incorporate more of that in my life because I'm just go, go, go, go, go, go, go all the time. And the piece that I think some of the things that you're doing in your day, those are things I can incorporate today without having to be retired at this point. And I think it would let's... And I will say this. So, and who knows, maybe you end up cutting this part out. But maybe you don't.

So I've struggled with my mental health. I've struggled with depression and anxiety and ADHD. And maybe you don't wrestle with any of that, Scott. And so for me, a lot of what I'm doing is. an attempt to address the mental health issues, to find ways to live so that I'm happier and not suffering from this. And so what he's describing and what I'm doing with the year of JD is a way to address all of this and to, I don't know, become more grounded. It'd be more true to who I am. No, absolutely. I think I certainly struggle with some of those elements. I wouldn't,

you know, and I think these are really important things to incorporate. So I definitely need to hear this message today. And I think that's really helpful. I'm going to go check out the book. Do you think our busy culture adds to these issues? And do you, would you recommend taking a year for yourself to wind those down? Would you recommend more than a year? Do you think that a year is enough? Well, I think a lifetime is probably the best way. That's hard. No, I would absolutely recommend it a year sounds too daunting for people. Start with a month. Make it the month. Make it the month. view. But I think making, it takes a while to get ramped up and to get comfortable with doing this. So I think saying, oh yeah, 2012, 2024 will be the year of me. That's a great way to do it.

But yeah, I mean, I think our culture, when you start paying attention, you will see that our culture is very much driven by productivity and action and activity. It, everything places value on this. and if you are inactive or you're still or you're calm or you're not doing anything that seems to be productive, it's viewed negatively. Not 100% of the time, but in most cases it's viewed negatively. And I think that's unfortunate because this decompression, when you create margin in your life, you're happier and you have room to breathe. And yeah, I have a lot I can say on this subject.

I'm trying to like, one of the things that I've done that's really helped myself is I'm trying to spend much less time online because of the work I've been doing over the past 15 years, most of my life has been spent online. And I've come to realize that that has probably contributed heavily to my mental health struggles. And so I'm deliberately staying off social media as much as possible, although I do post it Facebook, but I use it as a blog. So I've trying to get out of my computer games that were online. Reddit, I have a huge Reddit problem where I just, I go in, I know a lot of people get sucked into Instagram or to Facebook or to Twitter. I get sucked into Reddit. And so for the past

two months, I'm trying my damnedest to quit Reddit. I still struggle with it. Last night, I spent an hour on it. But for the most part, I'd really squash that habit. And it helps me be happier. You just said it takes a while to decompress. If I choose for 2024 to be the year of Mindy, what can I be doing now to prepare for the year of Mindy so that I can hit the ground running, which is not the point of decompressing, I know, but so that I can set myself up for success. So the short answer, Mandy, is to spend time in the rest of 2023 getting clear on what it is that's important to you so that you can then spend the time in 2024 focused on those things. So last year, probably around this time, because I remember listening to the audiobook during the summer, a good friend recommended a book called Designing Your Life, How to Build a book. a well-lived joyful life.

It's by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. I read it. I thought it was amazing. Read it again. And then a buddy and I, we worked through it. So the book has all sorts of exercises in it. And a buddy and I works through the book. We got all these no cards and paper.

And we'd meet once a month to go over the chapter we were working through. And one of the things that try, one of the amazing things about this is it has you eventually draw up three different five-year plans. So you drop a five-year plan based on, okay, what is your life like now? What might that look like five years from now? One is like, okay, if you couldn't do what you're doing now, what would your fault act be? What would that life look like five years from now? And then the third one is like, okay, just dream project.

If money was no object, if there was no object, if there was no. nothing holding you back. What would you do? And so that's your third five-year plan. And it's a pretty powerful exercise. And so I, long answer again, because that's how I work, I guess. If somebody were trying to come up with a year of me for 2024, I would say start now in 2023, working through designing your life or a similar book or similar exercises to figure out what's important to you and what kind of things you might want to focus on. Because when I did this, I came up with art. And so that's why I'm pursuing the art issue. That's an awesome answer. I love that, right? I mean, how, how do you know what you should do in 2024? You should think about

what you want to do in 2029 or 28, five years from now. Yeah. That in the perfect situation, I've never heard of a, I think I have that book and I read the first chapter and somehow I got distracted. It's sitting in my bookshelf. I'm going to pick that one up. But yeah, I got to go check that out. I never heard about doing with three different visions there, three different five-year plans that incorporate those things. So I'll have to go check that out and actually complete this one here. That's awesome. It's a great exercise. I recommended even if you are content with what you're doing, it's a great exercise to do. So I have one last question for you, J.D. It's two-parter here. In this context and the context of the discussion that we've had today and how you're living your

life and approaching 2023. Do you think that people tend to still oversave or wait, delay this point of early retirement far too long to get to that point? And second, we talked about taking a year of JD or potentially a 2024 year for Mindy here. Do people need to wait until they're FI to achieve that? Or would you recommend, you know, looking back, people do this much earlier and maybe do it on the journey to FI at some point.

Okay, so you're going to have to remind me the second part when we get there. The first part, do people tend to oversave? Well, I think obviously, average people do not oversave. But I would say that people who are interested in financial independence, the people who are actually focused on it and committed to it, yes, from my experience talking with them over the past 10, 15 years, they tend to oversave. And the thing is, they know they tend to oversafe. They just can't help it because it's a risk aversion. Again, I have a buddy here in Corvallis loving to death. He has far more money than I do. He's frugaler than I am. He cannot pull the

trigger. Cannot pull the trigger. And it's because he's scared. It's like, what if X happens? What if Y happens? I'm like, yeah, those are possibilities. You have this balance. You have to You have to think of today and you have to think of tomorrow, right? And that's where the struggle is. If we knew what day we were going to die, all of this would be so easy because we would just like, oh, I'm dying on January 1st, 2039. Well, then you just optimized for that date, right? But we don't know when we're going to die.

The thing is, today is knowable. We know what our life is today. We don't know what life is like tomorrow. So to me, in some ways, you can't neglect tomorrow, obviously, but you've got to make sure that you're enjoying today. I think too many people in the fire movement sacrifice happiness today for theoretical happiness tomorrow. I think you've got to find a balance there. And that balance is different for everybody.

So I hope that answered the question. No, I think it's a great answer. And I think the other part of that question was, Should I just go ahead? Let's hypothetically, I have $500,000 on the way to financial independence. I think I need 1.5, 1.6 to get there. Should I just keep grinding for another five, seven years? No, try to enjoy, try to pull back a little bit and enjoy myself.

Or should I just take that leap year now, that year off now, year of me. And, you know, I spend $50,000 of that and enjoy that year. tremendously at this point. What would be your advice to that person? My answer is it depends. I'm not a person who believes in like one answer for everyone. It's situations are different. But I would say that generally speaking, if you think you might want to try something now, you should try something now. Don't let fear hold you back. If you've got, say, your hypothetical, I think it was half a million saved and your goals. 1.5. If you would like to try to take a gap here, take a sabbatical, do it. In my experience,

talking with all sorts of people who've done this sort of thing, nobody has ever regretted doing that. I've never talked to anybody who's saying, damn, I took a year off and now my whole life is f***. I've never talked to anybody who said that. The opposite is usually true. And the thing is when you take these gap years or when you take time off to explore, when you take a sabbatical, often you discover new things about yourself or about the world and you're able to go in new directions that you would not have otherwise been able to do before. I think that's a really, really powerful answer, Rand? Yeah. I don't think we're ever going to find the person who regrets taking that gap year off or they're going to be few and far between. In the fire world,

I think this is true. I mean, again, you could look at lottery winners or, or, or, whoever, people who get windfalls and then they sped it all at once. But that's not what a person in the fire community is going to do. They're going to go live their life within their means for a year and see what it's like. And I think, I can't say everyone that it'll be right for everyone. But I think that from many people, if not most people, they'll find that, oh, okay, I can do this. And I should have done this earlier. Well, J.D., thank you so much for joining us today. A lot of really good insights here. It's just a privilege to know you, to have had the discussions with you over the years and watched your journey, seen how many people you've helped, and then gotten an insight today into what life is like in and the five community, the good, the bad, and the ways to kind of make the most of the position of power you've put yourself in from a financial standpoint. Thanks.

Okay, JD, I normally ask our guests, where can people find out more about you? But you're taking a step back from social media. So how can people get in touch with you? Well, what I would say is even though I'm trying to like do nothing, I do, I really enjoy writing. I'm going to be riding at my personal website. It's just jd.roth.com. I mean, if you want to read about my cats and my computers and my comic books and all that, come hang out there. It's just going to be a place to have fun.

It's interesting. I've neglected the site for like the past five, ten years because I've been focused on other things. It's always in disarray. And I'm undergoing the process as many knows of like trying to revitalize it. I've got to pull in things from all over the place and get it fixed up. But my aim is that going into 2024, this will be a robust place where it's fun for me to just write about whatever and just find a place to hang out like old school blogs were.

I want it to be like blogging was 20 years ago. Awesome. That's jd. roth.com. Go check that out. And then we'll also link to that. And the books mentioned on the podcast today at the show notes here for this episode. Yes.

And I actually just bought that book designing your life. Thank you to J.D. Roth for recommending that. And thanks for Amazon for making it so easy. J.D., this was super fun. I got so much out of our conversation. I really appreciate your time. I always love spending.

time with you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. I appreciate it. This was great. And we'll talk to you soon. Okay, Scott, that was probably my favorite episode that we have ever done. I love JD. I love talking to him. Again, I can't believe it took us so long to get him on the show. And I had a wonderful time talking to him. I love that over the last 14 years, his net worth has stayed the same while he continues to live his best life. And Anybody who thinks that's a failure is flat out wrong. I agree. I like define winning in a financial context.

J.D. is winning. Like that, that is a win. This is someone who has a over $1 million net worth. We're not like trying to pretend that's a small number or anything. But this is, this is someone who's been successful there. And then has really been able to use that to, you know, optimize the life that he wants to, that he wants to lead. So this is what we should, you know, all be striving for here, uh, in terms, in terms, in terms of wealth. And, you know, I don't think that, you know, J.D. is going to look back one day and say,

gee, I wish I'd earned a lot more money here. He's going to say, I'm happy with the way that I, I built wealth and how I tried to optimize my time and the efforts I put it into living my best life. And I think that's, that's what, that's the aspiration here for, for a lot of folks. Yep. I love his tip at the end, the book Designing Your Life. If you want to make 20, or heck, the rest of 2023, the year of you. Go get that book. Check it out. Do the three different five-year plans and see what you can do to make the rest of this year, next year, the year of you. I'm very excited to get that book. It comes in two days. Yeah. Look, I think, you know, that's great advice. We've talked in the past about this on the show here, but it all starts with what do you want?

And that is what designing your life, I think will potentially give you, is a clear definition pen to paper of what you want. And once you know what you want, you can then begin to build a plan to get there. And it's the root of all the finance Fridays, all the things that we discuss on BP money, it all starts with what do you want, right? If you have the biggest pile of money possible 30 years from now, there's a strategy for that. If you want the freedom and flexibility to do what you want five years from now, there's a plan for that. If you want to take 20, four off and go travel a world and backpack around Europe, there's a plan for that. Well, you know, you have to figure out what you want. And no, you can't have all three of those.

Maybe you can if you're particularly creative. But it'll be hard to have all three of those things, but it won't be hard to have any one of those or maybe even two of those that you choose. Yeah, what does policy? You can afford anything. You can't afford everything. So you can have anything. You can't have everything. Make a list of what it is you want. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying farewell, Turtle Shell. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash Bigger Pockets Money. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench. Produced by Kaylin Bennett. Editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the bigger pockets team for making this show possible.