BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 439: Watch Out for These Financial Infidelity “Red Flags” in Your Marriage

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

What should you do if you suspect financial infidelity from a partner? Money is a taboo subject in many marriages, and it doesn’t help that some spouses take a hands-off approach to personal finance. As you might imagine, this can quickly lead to one partner taking advantage of the other. Today’s guest is helping people save their nest eggs by uncovering and proving financial infidelity. Welcome back to another episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast! Today, we’re joined by Tracy Coenen, a veteran forensic accountant who investigates fraud, hidden money, and other money “shenanigans” in marriages. Most often, Tracy helps spouses navigate finances during a divorce when emotions are already running high and both parties feel overwhelmed. Whether you need help unearthing hidden money or getting on the same page with your spouse, this episode is loaded with all kinds of helpful tips, tricks, and resources that will help you get a better handle on your finances. Join Tracy, Mindy, and guest host, Amanda Wolfe, as they discuss the biggest financial “red flags” in a marriage, things to include in a prenuptial agreement, and why the weekly money check-in is so important! In This Episode We Cover What to do if you suspect financial infidelity in your marriage The “fraud snowball” and how to stop it in its tracks How to uncover hidden money, secret accounts, and secret spending Why you NEED to form the habit of discussing finances with your spouse The importance of prenuptial agreements (and what you should include!) Tips and resources to help you keep a closer eye on your finances And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Join BiggerPockets for FREE Scott's Instagram Amanda's Instagram Amanda's Website Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Listen to The Real Estate InvestHER Show Join The Real Estate InvestHER Community on Facebook Money Moment Why You’re (Probably) Wrong About Prenups Money Dates, Prenups, & Combining Finances Visit Tracy’s Website for More Helpful Resources Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-439   Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Tracy Conan and talk about forensic accounting and financial infidelity. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And joining me today is Amanda, Wolfe, the She Wolf of Wall Street. Amanda, what's up? Hey, hey, how are you? I'm so happy to see you today. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really, really excited about this episode. This episode is so much fun. I know the whole forensic accounting and financial infidelity sounds like maybe that's not exciting. This is a super fun show. wait for it. Amanda and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable

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Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. Tracy Conan is a forensic accountant who has over two decades of experience in accounting and investigations. Her goal is to help 1,000 women every year have better financial outcomes in their divorces. Tracy, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today. Hey, not as excited as I am to talk to you and Amanda. We're going to have an out-excited the other person contest. I met you at FinCon last year and I have wanted to have you on this show. I think forensic accounting is exciting. I think what you do is exciting isn't the right word because I'm sorry that there's a need for you to have a job. I wish that everybody was just super honest all the time and everybody was fair and square forever. But unfortunately, they're not.

So, because not everybody knows what I'm talking about, Tracy, can you start us off and give us a little bit of history about what a forensic accountant is and what your career has looked like? As a forensic accountant, I find money. So I do fraud investigations. And some of that is on the corporate side where I am going into companies that have executives who are stealing money, hiding money, manipulating financial records, and I'm trying to figure out what happened to the money, who was involved? Yeah, I know, exciting stuff. And some of what I do is on the personal side. So that involves the divorce work and other personal

matters where someone is engaging in some money shenanigans. And I got started as a forensic accountant more than 25 years ago. As an undergraduate, I was a criminology major. And my plan was to become a prison warden. And my sophomore year of the criminology program, I took a class called Financial Crime Investigation. It was an elective that was only offered once in a while. I thought it sounded pretty cool. I took it. I was hooked and I was kind of off to the races to make sure that I could get a CPA license and all that kind of stuff. I'm like sitting here mouth open. Like, that is so interesting. And what an interesting way to have gotten to this point to and like to go from prison warden goals to this. It's like it tracks and it's so interesting. So forensic accounting, I feel like it

sounds very hacker meets mission impossible. Can you tell us a little bit about what your job entails, like what your day to day looks like? My day to day is super busy. I spend a lot of time literally going through a lot of data. Bank statements, credit card statements, getting those transactions off the statements into a database. and then analyzing them, you know, fronting the numbers, sorting, totalling, subtoteling, like doing all sorts of things, looking for patterns, looking for things that don't look right. Some of it is intuition-based where my gut just says something over here isn't quite right. And some of it's very, very fact-based where I see something that just sort of opens it all up.

And I, you know, but I go down a lot of rabbit holes. And so it's a lot of data work, which doesn't sound exciting to people who maybe aren't numbers, people, but for me, it's putting that puzzle together and it's really fun. I think it's fascinating that people think that they won't get caught and everything leaves the paper trail. Well, that's just exactly it. So, Mindy, we met last year, as you said, at FinCon, where I was talking about the divorce money guide, which is the program that I put together to help people look at their own numbers in their divorces because 95% of people don't have situations that require a forensic accountant. They don't need to spend thousands of dollars on

someone like me. And of course, the question that I always get is, well, how is someone really going to find this on their own? It's complicated. Now, in 95% of divorces, it's not complicated. They don't cover their tracks very well. One of the primary reasons that the spouse who's doing funny things with the money doesn't cover their tracks well is because they know that their spouse isn't looking. We often have one spouse who just is hands off with the finances. And I don't want people to be ashamed if that's them because we divide and conquer, right? You take care of this in the household. I can't take care of that. And so if they know their spouse's hands off about the money, they don't make any effort to cover up what they're doing. Which makes it easy to find. All you need is someone to tell you where to look on the statements, right?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's just like that basic education, right, of just no, not like having the passwords to log into your accounts and then knowing where to find really basic information. So I think it's really just like the ABCs of, financial literacy, if you will, is just that really basic foundation. The divorce process is very emotional, and it has a lot of moving parts, and it seems very overwhelming to people. So what I like to do is take them through first, just sort of getting them acclimated to what the financial part of their divorce is going to entail. You're going to be asked to give up a lot of documents. You might have to sit down and do something called a deposition where the attorney for your spouse is asking you questions and they might be trying to embarrass you with some of those questions. They might not be

on the up and up with what they're trying to do. They might not just be trying to find information. They might be trying to be shady about it. I want people to understand all those things that are going to happen. And then getting your bank statements, some people don't even literally know how to get bank statements. And so we talked through, how do you get access to that? We talk through fun things like, if your spouse is holding a tax returns hostage, there's a way for you to get them on your own in about 10 minutes or less. You don't even need to. You don't even need to. spouse, right? Mindy sits up and takes notice. Wait a second. Wait a second. Awesome. I mean, that's not awesome that you have to do it, but that's awesome that there's a way to do it because if you are

the hands-off money partner in the relationship and then all of a sudden you are separating, this can be hugely overwhelming. And then on top of it, the hands-on money partner is like, ha ha you can't get this. I'm going to keep this away from you. Now here's a way around that. I don't need you anymore. I can go get it on my own. I love that. It's very empowering, isn't it? It is. Okay. So another part of your job is to look for money that a partner hides, which is sometimes referred to as financial infidelity. Can you explain financial infidelity for our audience? Yeah, financial infidelity is going to encompass any lies about the money between partners. So it could be hiding money, could be having secret accounts, secret bank

accounts, secret credit cards. It could be engaging in secret spending, things that you know your partner wouldn't approve of, spending beyond the limits that you and your partner have discussed. One common thing that I like to talk about is most couples have an agreement between them. If we're going to spend more than X dollars, we talk about it first. And if you are routinely spending about that limit, I consider that financial infidelity. Now, the question I often get is, oh, so if someone goes shopping and buys a parachute and hides them in the back of a closet, is that financial infidelity? Well, that's probably pretty minor, but I would say it depends in your situation. You know your spouse, you know the agreements that we have. If you and your spouse

have agreed, we're not going to do any secret spending ever of any nature. Yeah, you might be engaging financial and fidelity. If you're in a relationship where the money rules are a little looser, and you know your spouse is not going to care about a stupid pair of shoes, you just don't want to have the discussion. That's why you shoved them in the back of the closet. That's a little bit different. I did. I had a follow-up question. You mentioned secret bank accounts. Now, I am part of a women's financial group on Facebook, where I see advice frequently that says, always have your own bank account. Or my grandmother said, always have a secret bank account that he's he doesn't know about. And I can understand both sides of that argument because we have seen

women who have been taken advantage in relationships where they are the stay-at-home spouse, they are the non-money spouse, and then all of a sudden they're waylaid by this, hey, we're getting a divorce and you have nothing. On the other hand, that seems like you don't trust your partner. Is that financial infidelity to have a secret bank account just in case? Yeah, it is. I don't advocate secret accounts, but I do absolutely 100% advocate an account in your name only. And the reason why you always want to have an account that only has your name on it is so that no one else can shut it down. No one else can clean it out. If you only have a joint bank account, I have seen too many divorces where things go south. We know the divorce filing is coming or the divorce has just been

filed. And the spouse cleans out that bank account and you are left penniless. You have nothing to go get a new apartment, to go even put food on the table. So it's important to have that account in your name only, that only you control, but it should not be secret. Unless you have a special situation, like a situation where there is abuse, that's not my area of specialty. I don't like to talk too much about it because I don't want to give wrong advice, but I think in abusive situations, there might be a good reason to have some secret money, but that's not the norm of what I talk about. Okay, okay. Then I think that's a good caveat. We will steer clear of the abusive situation. So in this separate but not secret bank account in terms of monthly spending, what would you

recommend someone have in their separate but not secret bank account? It's a really, really get to depend on how your family's finances are set up. Because for some people, that separate account is only for maybe some fund money on a regular basis. Maybe they're accumulating some money in there, but they really only use it for fun money. So just, you know, then there's not a huge need there. But if you're splitting the bills, I pay this bill out of my separate account, you pay that bill out of your separate account, then you've got to take that into account for how much is going to be going into and out of that account on a monthly basis. I am a fan of trying to accumulate some money in that separate account. I think that spouses should,

you know, I like the idea of sitting down at least once a month, if not more often, and opening up the books together and just going over what's going on with your money. So if you each had a separate account, at that time, you would be sharing information with each other about what's going on with that account. So nobody gets married planning to get divorced, right? Or planning on bad things happen, but they happen. So how prevalent is financial infidelity in not just marriages, but in partnerships in general? Oh, gosh, I think the statistics are something like 30% or 40% of people admit to engaging in financial infidelity. So it is pretty prevalent. But you have to think that some of these instances are on the lower end of the spectrum, right? They're probably

more minor in terms of dollar amount and frequency, while some are much more frequent or larger. But I still think that's a little bit of an eye-opening stat that there's pretty good chance that you're in a relationship where there's some money stuff going on that you don't know about. Right. And I think that's a good point where, like, it could be small, for example, the Amazon package or the pair of shoes, but it also could be larger where you're pulling from your 401k and your spouse doesn't see it. And that's like a whole other thing, right? So what about like the big ones? Would you say like how prevalent would you say some of those big, I don't want to say life changing because you can always make more money one day, right? But how prevalent are those big, you know, those big ones? I don't have a sense of that in terms of a

stat for that. So many of these things are so hard. Like people will say to me on social media when you get the trolls out there like prove it, prove how often something happens or or things like this. And it's like, okay, this stuff is happening in the dark of night. We don't have good stats on how often it happens because so much of it is hidden, right? And people aren't, even if there's a survey, like some of these surveys of how often are you engaging in financial fidelity, we're counting on people self-reporting and admitting that they're engaging in it. Well, that's pretty tough to get some reliable statistics on that. But what I would say, instead of focusing on how often it happens, I'd like to focus on how do we

protect ourselves just in case. What are some common sense things that we can do that would protect ourselves in the event that that does happen? Yeah. And I think that is absolutely the way to go, right? Like let's set ourselves up for success from the beginning. But I have just another nosy question. I feel like I can't be the only one thinking this, which is do you see this among both genders or is there a percentage of one gender doing this more? I feel like there's a stereotype, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. What's the stereotype that you think exists? Well, I feel like, well, I guess it depends on if it's, this is just my opinion, right? But I feel like just from like TikTok videos, you know, from a financial infidelity perspective, there's all the

the small version. I'm using air quotes right now. But of, oh, I got to hide these Amazon packages for my husband. Oh, I got to make sure he comes during the day and go throw him in the back. Like, ha, ha, but also kind of not because we don't know your financial situation. But I feel like some of the bigger ones I always hear about men hiding the money, right? It's my money. She's trying to take it. And I just feel like those stereotypes exist. So I'm curious what your thoughts are. Are they true or are they just stereotypes. Anecdotally, having done this work for decades, what you see is what I see. It is what happens.

So more often it's the small shopping secrets that are happening with the women. And not to say that they can't do the bigger financial infidelity, but I would say, you know, the instance of it is exactly the way you described it. And when we get to the larger hiding of the money, it is more often than men who are being more aggressive about it, they are more likely to engage in romantic infidelity, which is expensive. And so there's money going out the door for that as well. And so unfortunately, the stereotypes, I think, do play out far more often than I'd like. You know, there's stereotypes for a reason. There's some basis in there, although I hate to say that. That when Amanda was explaining that,

I'm like, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too. Are you seeing a. Any common reasons for financial infidelity? I don't necessarily calm across reasons so much, but what I do see happening if we're looking for some common threads is I see the financial infidelity starting small. And it is starting with the smaller purchases, the smaller hiding of things that are going on. And I like to call it the fraud snowball. It grows little by little because it becomes easier to justify to yourself what you've been doing and the longer you lie to yourself, the longer you tell yourself it doesn't matter, the easier it

becomes, the larger the transactions become. And so that's something that I do see. Wow. Yeah, that is, I was just going to say that. Wow, I can see somebody doing it once and being like, oh, I didn't get caught. Oh, sure. You do it again. It's just like lying. You don't start off with like a wallop of a lie. You start off with a little bitty lie and then you tell another one and another one. I mean, that's what it is really. Your financial infidelity is lying to your partner about money, either money that you did spend or money that you did not spend. Well, this is one of the reasons why it's so important to have that regular check-in about the money, go over the books together, because if there were some of these small instances, you could catch them early, hold your partner accountable and just say, hey, what's going on here?

I noticed you did some shopping that kind of went outside our budget, where there are some things you needed? Was it just a momentary thing where you really? You really. You really. You really. really wanted something and you just went ahead and did it, having those honest conversations can really change the long-term outcome, right? So if you're not seeing common reasons, are you seeing common things that people are spending on secretly? I mean, the most common things that I see are the affairs and the secret bank account where they are salting money away because they think that a divorce could be coming and they're preparing for it. there's a little something that I refer to as divorce financial planning. And that's one of those

things is either that bank account or even sometimes, I mean, it's as simple as a shoebox with money in it that's hidden somewhere, literally. How do you find that? Like, that's not a paper street. Sneaks in their house at night. You find it by accident. I just, a couple weeks ago, I had someone contact me with direct message on Instagram. She said, I want to thank you so much. I've been following your account for a few months, and my daughter's getting divorced, and I had turned her onto your account as well. We didn't buy anything from you. We just watched your account, and she was taking the tips that you were using, and she found two things. She found a shoebox of money hidden in their house, and she found a bank account that she never knew about.

The shoebox had 10 grand in it. The bank account she didn't know about had 50 grand in it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And these are ordinary people, ordinary people. That's a lot of money for an ordinary person. Yeah. Where did that come from? How did he get it out with that? Oh my gosh. Okay. If she's not the money person. Right. And it's so easy. You like, you know, I teach people how to look for missing paychecks in their bank statements. I say, you know, take 12 months worth of bank statements, take a green highlighter and highlight every paycheck that's being deposited and count those up and make sure that the correct number is there. Most people get paid 20. or 26 times a year. If you count them up and you see only 20 checks, there's a problem. And you're saying, well, wait a second. Most people have direct deposit, don't they? Sure, they do. But it's easy to divert a

check. It's easy to go into your system at work or go into HR and say, hey, I have a new bank account and divert a couple of checks and then turn it back onto the regular account. Or it's easy to start having your employer divert part of your paycheck. You know, when you're filling out the direct deposit, you can say send $1,000 to this account and the rest of it to that account, right? That's super easy to do. And so that's why I want people counting up the number of paychecks, looking at how much is being deposited every time. Does that amount make sense? Those are like pro tips. And I'm sorry, I'm like still sitting here in shock over the $60,000 of hidden money from an ordinary couple because I'm like, how long had he been doing that? It's a great question. That is a long time.

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But I think financial infidelity, and I was just having this conversation, with someone, so I'm so interested to hear your answer. But I think financial infidelity can still very much happen in situations where you have your own bank accounts, too. So I was wondering if you could speak to that, like for those who don't have joint accounts. Oh, sure. I am perfectly on board with people having separate accounts in their marriages. For some people, it's just what works for them. And the key, though, is if you're going to do that, again, to have that visibility into what the other person is doing. So it's that check-in where we're going to sit down. and go over the books together. And I always think that it needs to be routine, that you're doing it.

I like the concept of having a 10 or 15 minute check-in once a week. Because the more often you do it, the less scary it seems, right? The less overwhelming. Once a month at very minimum. If that's the, if that's the most you can bring yourself to do as a couple, fine, then do it once a month. But it's opening up the books and seeing each, the activity that's going on in each other's account. And the best example I have to illustrate why this is so important is let's say we have our separate accounts, we each cover the bills we're supposed to cover, and so everything looks fine. But we've been in agreement that we're saving for a house, for a down payment out of the house. And we know how much each of us is going to contribute to that.

And what if I'm saving my part and my partner isn't? I wouldn't know that unless I have visibility into his account. And so if it's a matter of sitting down together in front of the computer and logging into online banking, you know, he pulls up his bank account and his 401k and his credit cards and we just zip through them and then I do the same. Cool. If you want to print out statements, cool. I don't care how you accomplish it as long as you have that level of accountability with each other. Yeah. And I think that's such a good point because you got married to be partners, right? So even if you're keeping everything separate, that's more comfortable for you, you have likely larger shared goals that you're both going to need to be contributing to. So I still think,

to your point, like having that exposure is really important. And I actually love the idea of doing it more often, like you said, weekly for just a few minutes. So it's not some big daunting chore, especially because like if there are little things happening here and there, you can sit with your partner and talk through it versus it like escalating or you forgetting about it. And then it snowballing, which was the perfect term. So I love that idea. Or we have, you know, unexpected car repair where are we take where are you taking the money from to pay for that or you know there's there's a house repair that's expensive hey we don't have cash right now are you okay with us putting it on this credit card or something like that to have those weekly check-ins those conversations are easier they're

more timely you can stand top of things better so let me ask you then so let's say you know I guess either you're meeting or you're not meeting but are there any early signs or red flags of financial infidelity that the listeners can look for? There are so many, right? I have a laundry list of them. Let's hear them. All right. Buckle up. Well, you know, I talk about the most common things. And the most common thing that you're going to see is a change in behavior. And there's two kinds of things I talk about in that regard. One is change in financial behavior, like change in how they're spending money, a change in the information that they're allowing you to have. So, one of the things that sometimes happens if someone's engaging in financial fidelity is they cut you off from information.

Maybe you suddenly aren't able to log into the online banking. Or there used to be bank statements that actually came snail mail to your house and now they don't anymore. Or they're just not being open about the finances. So those kind of changes in behavior. But then the other changes in behavior where they are hiding their phone from you. They are not keeping the same routine that they used to. Maybe not coming home directly after work. Maybe they've got time that's on accountant for. They're being secretive about their whereabouts. Those kinds of things tend to signify affairs. And financial infidelity is highly correlated with affairs, again, because affairs are expensive. That money has to come from somewhere, somewhere that your spouse doesn't know about. So the biggest, the most prevalent red flag is definitely some sort of change in behavior. Do you recommend people approaching their spouse if they notice this change in

behavior, if they suspect something going on? No. What I recommend. So if you were to see one red flag and that's all you saw, I would probably say, don't get too worried, wait and see if you see anything else. If you see a bunch of red flags that are really, really concerning, the first thing I actually advise people to do is start gathering information before you say anything. If you do have access to the bank accounts still and the credit card accounts, start downloading statements, putting those in a safe place where they can't. You can't disappear. Information is your friend. And so before you say anything, and I notice some people this sounds shady, they think, oh gosh, I'm being a little sneaky. No, if your name's on that account, there's nothing sneaky about it. You have every right to get those statements. You are protecting yourself. You're being cautious. Get the information, set it aside before you have the conversation. Because I've seen too many cases where the conversation happens, they realize you're onto them. And suddenly documents are disappearing. Access goes away.

etc. So, okay, so I've discovered that there is some shenanigans going on. I have downloaded these documents and now I have made the decision that I want to hire a forensic accountant. What are my next steps? So you're only going to hire their forensic account if you have a more complicated situation, right? A lot of people talk about, you know, money might be missing. They might need a forensic accountant. I will say in probably 95% of divorces, you don't need a forensic accountant. You would need one if you have a more complicated situation. Very high earnings, a lot of assets, maybe a number of real estate investments, a business that you or your spouse own, you know, some generational wealth, some trust, things like that. Those are the more complicated

situations where you're going to think about hiring the forensic accountant. What I tell people to do, if that's the path that they're on, I like to sit down and talk with them and their attorney. All three of us talking about what are our concerns, what information do we have, what do we want to accomplish? If someone is just in the suspicious stage, they don't really have any hard evidence that anything has been going on, they really may not need a forensic accountant. If, you know, if they have some suspicions, the first thing I'm going to ask is tell me more about those suspicions. What have you seen of a concrete nature that leads you to believe some money is missing? If the answer is, well, my husband is just a jerk and we're getting divorced. So of course he's hiding

money. Well, he probably not going to be a good steward of your own money, spending it on a forensic account for that. But if you can say to me, you know, I used to have access to these accounts and now I don't. And that really concerns me. And last year, he had re-signed some documents and wouldn't let me read them over before I signed them. He just really pressed me to sign them. And the last couple of years, the tax returns got filed without me ever seeing them. And when I was asking to see them, I was told, don't worry about it, don't worry about it. And these things altogether really have me concerned. I would say, you're probably right and you need a forensic accountant. So obviously there are some steps that will take before we hire a forensic

accountant, right? So doing our research, making sure we're not, I don't want to say overreacting, but making sure that we're like doing our due diligence. What types of fees are associated with a forensic accountant? Like how much should we be preparing for in this divorce financial planning, as you put it? Yeah. I always say plan on $10 to $15,000 to start with a forensic accountant. You might find one who will start a little cheaper than that, but ultimately by the time you're done with your project, it'll be at least in the $10,000 to $15,000 range. The divorces that I work on are typically $25,000 to $50,000. If it gets really complicated, of course, it can be more than that, but it's not a cheap endeavor. And okay, so then how do you pay for that? Because then the minute that I

hire you, if I don't have another account, they're going to see money coming out of our accounts, right? So how do, like, how do people get around that? They don't. If you're hiring me, you're already in the divorce process, and it really doesn't matter if they know, you're probably not hiring me before you're in that divorce process. So most people don't have that as an issue. Okay. It's not like a private investigator up front type deal. So then I have another question then as it relates to divorces is how does a pre-nup play into this? Can you add a financial infidelity clause? Because I feel like I've heard of crazy things in pre-nups with celebrities like you have to lose so much weight after you have a baby or you can't be over like outside of like this weight range like

really crazy stuff in the celebrity ones. And I'm curious just in general how preempts play into this. And if if you've seen financial infidelity clauses. Prenups are your friend and prenups are for everyone. I am such a fan no matter how much or how little money you think you have doing a preempt because it gives you the ability to control what would happen if you divorce. So we don't like to think about the possibility of divorce we're getting married, but it's a reality that it happens for a good number of people. You can put just about anything you want in your pre-knuff. I have seen clauses not so much related to financial infidelity as related to romantic infidelity. So I see clauses about affairs that say, you know, if you're the one caught having an affair, you get nothing or

things like that. I have seen clauses that say something like if one spouse is found to have hidden money. When that account is uncovered, it goes 100% to the other spouse or 75% to the other spouse to try to put an incentive there for money to not be hidden. Unfortunately, what happens a lot in divorce court is, yes, my husband is hiding money in an account and I uncover that account. The divorce court judge says, oh, we have an account here. Okay, it has to get split. 50-50, here you go. It's like, well, wait a second. Why didn't he get penalized for hiding that money and trying to get away with that. And sometimes they get penalized, but more often than not, I see it really not being any penalty at all. Oh, that's not fair.

No, not at all, is it? Mm-mm. So it's like, it's like there's totally an incentive to hide money because you might not get caught at all. And even if you do get caught, in most cases, the worst that's going to happen is you're still just going to have to divide it with your spouse. Which you would have had to do before if you didn't hide it at all. Yeah. So to be clear, we're not suggesting that you hide money from your spouse. That's true. We are not suggesting that. That really is a stinky policy.

Hey, divorce court judges, change your policies. Do you have any like crazy or particularly interesting stories that you can share of like things that you've found? I mean, I just, we just heard about the shoebox with a bunch of cash. But do you have any like other interesting ones to share? I'm sure you've seen it all. Yeah. One fun one is the Instagram.

investigation where my client, the wife, was concerned about what her husband was spending on his girlfriend. Now, to be clear, he got the girlfriend after they separated. So it was not a cheating situation. However, he and his wife had a lot of money. They had something like $40 million that they were trying to split up. Oh, my. And yeah, they had a bunch.

But he was spending gobs and gobs and gobs of money on his girlfriend. And the wife is like, hey, we're still married on paper. He is spending our money. I am entitled to some of this. You know, what are we going to do about this? Well, we have to prove what he's spending on her. And we had credit card statements. And I said, you know, it really looks like his girlfriend is going shopping on his credit

card account. And so, of course, he was asked, does she have a card on your account? And he said, no. We asked the credit card company, is there an account, is there a card in her name? Is she an authorized user? And they said, no, she's not. And that didn't make sense to us. And then one day we found her Instagram account. And on her Instagram account, she liked to post pictures of herself on her little shopping trips. So what she would do

is go to really high-end stores. Here I am at Hermes and here's what I bought. Look at my little package and, you know, selfie, tag the Hermes store. And then she'd go to a fancy little lunch and, you know, selfie at the restaurant and tag the restaurant. She enjoyed doing that. And I said, well, why don't I just compare her Instagram posts to the credit card bills? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I just sat there and one by one went through all of them, added it all up and $400,000 later. No. Wow. Grab your popcorn and your cocktail and sit down. That is, oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. Well, that is like, I don't even know what to do with that information. I also can't imagine splitting up $40 million. Step number one, don't flaunt it on the where it never goes away. Right. Well, what's so funny is that husband didn't have any social media accounts. And so he thought he was really insulated from anything like that. And so he wasn't monitoring what his girlfriend was doing on social media, not paying attention to that, right? Because he's not out there in social media himself. And yeah, that was fantastic. It was, you know, you don't find that kind of stuff every day. But when you do, it makes a really fun story to tell. Yeah. Well, wow, that is,

That is very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. That was incredible. I can't have even thought that up. So, okay, so on that note, are there any just general tips, watchouts, anything that we haven't asked you because you don't know what you don't know? And I'm sure that you probably have like a plethora of things, but any other just general tips for people out there? Well, it depends. What kind of tips you're looking for? We could go down the path of more red flags of fraud. We could go down the path of some of the common places that people like to hide money, some of the common ways we uncover it. I mean, this is choose your own adventure, Amanda. Yes. Okay. Let's go down the pathway of where the where people are hiding it. Where they're hiding it. So we talked, did we talk about a

secret credit card already? I don't think we did. No, I don't think we did. Okay. So the secret credit card is so common, especially when a romantic affair is involved. Again, like I said, they have to pay for this affair somehow. They can't pay for it necessarily with the joint bank account, right? Because if your spouse does, well, sometimes they do because they know their spouse isn't looking. But I don't see that as often. What I see is they have another credit card that you never knew about. So how are we going to figure out that this credit card exists? Well, we're going to look at the bank statements. We're going to look for a payment to a credit card company that we didn't know about before, that we didn't know either of us had in our wallet. Because typically in the average family,

there is one or two credit cards that we each have. You know, there's a city bank. account. We each have a card for it. And then there might be a Chase credit card and we each have a card on that account. And that's usually the extent of it. So if you see a payment to Wells Fargo, maybe there's a Wells Fargo credit card. That's one way to uncover it. The other way, the more common way, is you guys have a Citibank credit card account and there's one account that you know about, but you look at the bank statements and you see that Citibank is being paid twice every month. Hmm. Hmm. Some people discount that and think, well, maybe he broke up the payment and, you know, instead of making one big payment throughout the month, he made two smaller payments. No, more likely, there's a second city bank account that credit card that you didn't know about. Sneaky. Sneaky. But not that hard to uncover. If I tell you what to look for, it's not that hard to find it. Yeah, I would not think of this. As you're saying this, I'm like, well, of course. But it makes sense. 25 minutes ago, I was like, No idea. No idea. Now I'm going to go look through my bank statement.

Not that I suspect anything. I'm just curious. What's all in there? Because you're going to get a DM from Mindy later. I don't look at them. My answer is going to be Mindy. You have to go buy the Divorce Money Guide if you want to know more. Well, and that leads me to my next question. Do you have any resources that our audience can access if they suspect or if they more than suspect that they are experiencing this? Of course I do. So of course, I'm out there on social media. So I, you know, I'm on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. And so I've got little, little reels there, little videos where I give tips. And of course, that's just, you know, a starting point for people. But it's at least to get you thinking. I have a podcast of my own called Find Me the Money. So that's the other free resource out there for people. And that podcast is sort of a companion to my book that came out in May called

find me the money. And that book is to give people a starting point for how to find money that their spouse may have hidden, you know, so we talk about a lot of the things that we talked about today, you know, the secret credit card and things like that and how you might uncover some of the ways that money is hidden. And then there's the divorce money guide. And that's my online product where I walk people through the steps of, you know, really showing them the how of, What is the divorce process related to money? How do you get your account statements? How do you get those tax returns from the IRS, just like I talked about before? And then what do you look for in them once you have them? So if you're not an accountant, if you've never dealt with tax returns before, what would I look

for on there? What would I be able to find? Awesome. Thank you. This is going to be so helpful for anybody who's going through this just to give them a start where to look. What is that Instagram handle, that Twitter handle, that Facebook handle that you just mentioned. Instagram and TikTok, it's Divorce Money Guide. And we will link to this in our show notes so that people don't have to write that down furiously as they're driving. If they are, please be safe. Hands on the wheel.

Tracy, this was so awesome. I had such a good time talking to you. Where can people find your, what's your website? My website is fraudcoach.com because I am your fraud coach throughout your divorce. And I have set up a page there for your listeners, especially for them. It's fraudcoach.com slash pockets. And what they're going to find there is the book, the divorce money guide, they're going to find a red flag assessment. So we talked a lot about red flags of fraud. And people don't really know, should I be worried or not? Is this serious or not? You know,

am I minimizing what I'm seeing or am I boring in our proportion? It's a three or four minute twist that they take and at the end of it, I'll tell them how likely they are that they have financial fraud. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So little resources for them. I know that divorce is a really emotional time. It is really hard. There's so many moving pieces. It's expensive. I've been through it with hundreds of clients. And, you know, I'm just hoping to help make the process easier, help people take, you know, take control over their money, get more comfortable with it, and get the kind of settlement that they deserve because you've got one shot in your divorce to find that money, get your share of it. And I want to be there to help. Tracy, that was awesome. Thank you. That's

fraudcoach.com slash pockets. I appreciate you doing that for us and for our listeners. You're welcome. Well, Tracy, we have had a wonderful time talking to you. Thank you so much for your time today. And we will talk to you again soon. All right. That was possibly my favorite show ever, Amanda, wow, the tips at the end about just looking for a second city bank card, look for your checks. How many checks are getting deposited into your bank account? Like I said in the show, if you, like this is so easy once you give me these suggestions, but I wouldn't think to look if my bank account is being hit with my paycheck, because of

course it's being hit with the paycheck, but maybe not. No, I agree. And I think like those little tips to show you don't have to be, you know, like a tech expert or a rocket scientist to go and find these things. They are like very easy, tangible things that you can do with just a little basic education. And the big takeaway for me was just getting educated because just knowing this stuff from the beginning before you are hopefully never in it is really helpful because having that base layer, that foundational layer before emotion. are involved, I think can be really, really helpful. So I think this topic is relevant to literally any person out there who's in a relationship. Absolutely. I mean, imagine you think that your spouse is hiding something. And then you let it fester in your mind and fester in your mind. And then you

discover Tracy's ideas and you start and you're like, oh, there's nothing there. You could really break that trust. Yeah. And once you break trust, it's really hard to get it back. On the other hand, you could be, oh, he would never do that to me and pushing it aside and pushing it aside. And then you find out way down the road. I mean, if you think something's going on, chances are something's going on. Here are some solid starting points. And if you find a red flag, okay, maybe it's explainable. If you find 50 red flags, that's a lot harder to explain.

So I absolutely love this episode and I'm so thankful to Tracy for coming on the show. Amanda, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. She is Amanda Wolf, the She-Wolf of Wall Street. I am Mindy Jensen saying, take care, Black Bear. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel

at YouTube.com slash Bigger Pockets Money. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintra. Lastly, a big thank you to the bigger pockets team for making this show possible.