BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 445: Can’t Afford to Travel? Nomadic Matt Says You’re (Probably) Wrong

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

Travel hacking allows you to see the world for less than you spend at home. That’s right. If you took your rent or mortgage payment in the US and traded it for traveling abroad, you could live off far less money and do far more than you do back in the States. But you’ll need to know how to work the system before you take off on your flight, or else you might come home happy and full but broke. Matthew Kepnes, better known online as Nomadic Matt, made travel his full-time job, documenting how much he spent, saved, and enjoyed along the way. Matt has spent more time outside the US than most Americans will in their lives—and he has some secrets to share. Matt goes over EXACTLY how to start travel hacking, from credit cards to cheap activities, hostels, hotels, and horror stories you should try to avoid. Matt also shares why so many Americans spend WAY too much money when they’re abroad and what you can do tomake your trip last FAR longer IF you follow a few essential tips. So, if you want to finally take the year off and wander around Europe, Southeast Asia, or Central America but don’t think you have the funds to do so, Matt is here to prove you wrong. In This Episode We Cover The most cost-effective way to travel and why you MUST “travel like you live” Why smart spenders MUST get a travel rewards credit card NOW Geographic arbitrage and the cheapest countries/areas to stay in for weeks (or months!) Hostel horror stories and why it ISN’T all partying and bunk beds Free activities you can do in ANY city and where to find them Matt’s top travel websites and apps to find hotel and flight deals for cheap  And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Join BiggerPockets for FREE Scott's Instagram Mindy on BiggerPockets Grab Scott’s Book, “Set for Life” Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Money Moment How to Earn Free Vacations With Travel Rewards Credit Cards Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-445   Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Matt Kepniss and talk about travel hacking and living a nomadic lifestyle. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me as always is my sedentary co-host, Scott Church. Ouch, Mindy with the hostile introduction today. Sedentary in that you have a baby and traveling with a baby is not as much fun as not traveling with a baby. She won't be a baby forever. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world or not wait until you retire early and travel the world anyways, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or start your own business. We'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams.

Scott, I am super excited to be here and I am super excited about our new segment, which is called The Money Moment. This is where we share a money hack, tip or trick to help you on your money journey. Today's money moment is get rid of your cable package. I know many companies try to use this as a bundle your internet to make it cheaper, but many streaming services actually cost less and have live TV built in. Crunch the numbers and see if you come out ahead by separating out your services. Do you have a money moment for us? Email money moment at biggerpockets.com.

All right, Scott, today's show we're talking about travel and travel hacking. And I have a personal question for you. Where is the most favorite place you've ever been? I'll give you three quick ones. One is Maui, as I mentioned in there. If you go between January and March, the whales breed from the Arctic that come down there to breed. And it's pretty amazing to see a whale jumping every couple of seconds, basically, off the coastline. It's a wonderful experience.

Ireland was absolutely fantastic. There's a lot of just really fun culture and stuff going on there. I really love the Irish sports as well, like the Gaelic football and hurling. It's kind of just kind of a unique experience and beautiful country. And then the last one I'll say is when I was graduated college, I did a Euro trip similar to Matt, a shortened version of what Matt kind of is really known for our guest today. And that was a unique lifetime experience. That sounds awesome. And yeah, I've been to Hawaii in January.

I got my anniversary is in January. So I've been to Hawaii several times in January. And yeah, you just sit there on the beach and all of a sudden you're like, oh, look a whale, a look a whale, a look a whale. They're just jumping all the time. It's a really cool experience. What's your favorite place? My favorite place that I've ever traveled was Greece. I went there in, I think, 2018. And it was incredibly inexpensive. For some reason, I thought a place that beautiful was. going to be super expensive. Like Hawaii can be super expensive, but is also so amazingly beautiful that you kind of get over the fact that it's so expensive. Greece was overwhelmingly beautiful. And then you're like, wait, how much is it? That's it? It's not more? And the whole time I was there, I was shocked at how beautiful it was and how inexpensive it was all at the same time. The architecture, it's like, this sounds so stupid to say, but it's like, it's so old that everything is so, you know, it's, Europe is just different than America. America is like 200 years old and Europe's like two million years old or whatever.

So everything's just different. And I love looking at all of that architecture and stuff. Kind of a real estate nerd, Scott. I don't know if you know that. You really enjoy those Spartan lifestyle travels. Tax season is one of the only times all. year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening.

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Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with FAL. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Liener Stronger for Fitness, the anxious generation for parenting perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business,

health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BPMoney. Matt Kepniss runs the award-winning travel site nomadic mat.com, which helps people travel the world on a budget. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, How to Travel the World on $50 a day, and the travel memoir, 10 Years a Nomad. His writings and advice have been featured in the New York Times, CNN, The Guardian, Budget Travel, BBC, Time, and countless other publications. Matt Kepness, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thanks for having me.

Let's start off with a little bit about your background and how you started Nomadic Math Well, you know, I was, I just come back from 18 months traveling the world. I was 26, 27 at the time, somewhere like that, 2008. And I was working a temp job in healthcare. I was basically, the assistant had gone on maternity leave and I was just there to fill space and redirect phone calls and not break anything. So it was very clear I was to do no work. And so I had a lot of free time on my hands and just really wanted to get back on the road.

So I created the website as a way to, so it would be an online resume, you know, like come hire me. Here's where I've been featured online. Here's my bylines. There's a blog component because I've been blogging before. So I want, you know, show people I could write. really just designed it's like personal blog slash online resume website you know everyone has a website right um really that was it no bigger vision than that and what were you hoping they would hire you for i want to do like freelance writing write guidebooks that whole jam uh so work for lonely

planet fromers, you know, all the big companies or maybe, you know, CNN travel, you know, freelance right somewhere. So, yeah, I started, you know, pitching myself and worked out a lot of online publications, you know, 50 bucks, 100 bucks back then. Just trying to build my chops, went to conferences, and then just kept blogging on the side. But, you know, I had the... the fortune to be there at the right time. You know, 2008, blogging was starting to take off.

There wasn't a lot of travel blogs. You know, you had, let me make money online blogs. You had finance blogs. You had, you know, blog her, lots of fashion, the mommy blogging craze. So there was like, you know, a lot of things going on at that time. And so I went to all these networking events, you know, And that kind of helped because, you know, I was there at the right time. And so by 2010, 2011, the blog had taken off enough where I could just work on it full time.

It feels like YouTube and TikTok today as the corollary, right? Like that blogging was like that environment is for a lot of these folks that are creating content in that space. Yeah, I would say it's a little different. Like back then, like now it's so accepted, you know, like kids are like, I want to be a TikTok star, right? You know, back then, if I was like, I wouldn't be a blogger. People were like, what the hell is a blogger? Back then when you got started, where did you find the opportunities for cost-effective travel and, you know, this nomadic lifestyle in the first place?

Were there more of them? Was it different than it is today? I mean, I was a backpacker. So I was just staying in hostels and doing all the backpacker things of cheap travel, you know, Um, inexpensive meals, dorm rooms, uh, local buses. I mean, just backpacking around. Um, so that's how I kept my costs down. You know, back then you'd make money either through Google ads, um,

or selling links. You know, you, you'd come in and be like, hey, if you put my link in the sidebar for 500 bucks, I'll give you 500 bucks. And you say, okay, you know, because Google was so unsophisticated back then that you could basically spam websites with links and still rank high. So that's what, you know, between those two and just selling like e-books on travel, it's making like $5 to $8,000 a month. I mean, I had a plethora of websites.

So that was enough to keep me traveling while also reinvesting in the website and hiring, you know, designers and stuff. So how do you get started in travel hacking? I think there's this idea that people want to do it, but they don't know where to start. I mean, you got to get a credit card. I mean, that's what the simple thing is. The credit card is the vehicle that sort of washes your spending. You want to look at that that way, right? Like, you spend money and you turn it into points on your credit card. You know, and you have to pay your bill off every month. Travel credit cards come with a much higher interest rate than your average credit card, right? So if you're not paying your bill off every month, the points you're gaining, you're just losing to interest. And so you definitely have to be able to pay your bill off completely.

But you need a credit card. Without a credit card, there's no way to travel high. What are some of the best apps and websites that you recommend travelers look to snag a good deal? Well, it depends. You know, deals are forever changing. For example, for flights. There's never one good website. There's never actually one good website for anything because a good deal on one website is a bad deal a month from now.

But some places I really love for flights, it's called Sky Scanner. Scott's chief flights, which is not called Going, has a great email where they send out last minute flight deals or just fair mistakes. So like, you know, there might be a cheap fare to Japan in August for 200 bucks, you know. So that's a great website for flights. Skyscanner is another good website for flights. For hotels, Google is actually really good because if you type into Google, hotels and whatever, they'll show you hotels, let's say, in New York City and whatever date

you want. And they pull in all the data from all booking websites. And so you can see which one's offering the cheapest rate that day and just book there. Rather than go to booking.com and then hotels.com and then Chavago, you just have it all in one place. That said, generally speaking, I find better deals at unbooking.com. and then when you're in Asia, Goda,

it just has better inventory, A-G-O-D-A. For activities, that is a very fractured booking environment, but get your guide is pretty good in terms of just seeing a lot of activities around the world. They're basically like an Expedia.

They're a reseller. So it's not as cheap as just booking direct, but it basically puts it all in one place for you. So, Matt, I'm trying to recreate this awesome lifestyle that you have blogged about and lived for the last, you know, many years. And it just seems like an exciting, awesome way to spend years or a decade of my life. Where do I start? What is like the first thing I should be doing?

What's a practical kind of set of how-toes to get going down this path to beginning my nomadic series of adventures? Yeah, I think the first thing I, always tell people to do is to really just get a handle on your spending and savings. Most people really don't know what's going in and what's going out. So when they sit down to say, okay, I want to take six months off, I want to take a year off. Or maybe they just want to take a month off, whatever. Then, you know, they say, oh, I can't travel.

I'm just, I can't save, you know, the bill is too much. And I always ask them, it's like, okay, well, where does the money go? right and most people don't they'll be like well you know I have the mortgage I have this bill that bill then it's like okay but what do you spend every day because there's really two like costs you have your fixed costs like your mortgage and you need a car insurance or health insurance whatever those costs are and then you have all the funds costs going to the movies stopping to get a drink with a friend, even buying a bottle of water, you know, on the street because you're thirsty. So I always help people attract their spending for a month because you'll always, you'll always

be surprised that, you know, I mean, buying a movie on Amazon, you don't really think about that as an expense, but if you're trying to stay for a long-term trip, every dollar is going to count. So for me, my advice is always start worth getting a handle on your finances, where everything's coming in and going out. So that you can see, okay, what could I really cut? What is absolute? I can cut it. And what is the discretionary, you know, money.

And then once you do that, you can kind of start seeing these phantom expenses, such as the things you're never thinking of, that movie you rented from Amazon, the bottle of water you bought on the way home because you were thirsty. All those little things, they do add. up, but they're subconscious spending that, they're unconscious spending that we're not really thinking of. So tip number one is always get a handle on your finances. Awesome. And what is the kind of, you know, if I have a handle on my finances, what should I be expecting? Like that's my history. That's my current situation. Maybe I work a job here in Denver, Colorado, I have a rent,

all that kind of stuff. When I am on this nomadic journey, what should I be expecting from an expense load? Yeah. So, Then you have my book, A hundred travel of the world on $50 a day, pre-COVID. So I'd maybe let's call it 70 post-inflation, right? But the idea here is just about traveling like you live, right? Day to day, you don't spend ideally a ton of money, right? You go to work, you spend stuff on food, you take the bus, the train. You go grocery shopping, right?

You're not out all the time just like eating out, like taking Uber's, right? You're not just like blowing through money the way people tend to think about vacation. When you go on vacation, it's all about just like I am just going out, right? Like I am fancy dinners and tours and nice hotels. But when you're traveling, you must kind of keep those costs lower. So you can't always stay in five-star hotels. You can't go for expensive meals all the time. You can't take tours and taxis and even.

stay in resorts. You kind of have to travel like you live, going to the grocery store, taking the bus, you know, staying at cheaper guest houses, looking at free activities, you know, free attractions, just kind of being a little bit more conscious of your spending. And so after you sort of figured out,

okay, like if I really cut my spending, you know, I could save maximum $3,000 a month, right? Okay, so from that number, you can then work from, I want to go away for a year. It couldn't cost me, you know, $25,000 to do this year-long trip. And so then you just kind of work back as to how much money you need, how many months it will take you to spend.

And what's great about living in this day and age is what I went to traveling back and started in 2006. I started planning in 2004. So I saved for a couple of years to do this. But back then there was no information online, how much did things cost? Everything was a rough estimate, right? I mean, I had to cut my trip short in Australia because when I planned my trip, it was one U.S.D got to $1.30, Australia.

By the time I got there, it was one-to-one. My purchase and power was down 30%. And so, like, it's totally screwed up my entire budget. Whereas nowadays, I mean, you can't do much about exchange rates and all. Who knows what the exchange is going to be in a year. But I had based that money I needed for Australia just on a rough estimate of what little I could find in a guidebook that was written two years ago, where today there's so much information online, you know, pretty accurately how much that trip is going to cost you.

So it's very easy to work from where you are now to where you need to be. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning,

together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockes. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place, so every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple.

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You just said you're not going to be spending when you're traveling like you're spending when you're on vacation. And I don't know if this is like, well, of course, no kidding, comment in the traveling and the travel hacking space. But that was really kind of eye-opening for me when you said that. I was like, oh, yeah, you're not on vacation for six months. You're just living in a different location for six months. I think that's really important to highlight. I love that comment. Yeah, you are, you have to make this a very limited amount of money last, right?

And so when you know you're just going away for two weeks, since you're only vacation for six months and you're going to have money coming in, you're more likely to spend it. But when there is no job, if you quit your job to travel, you are making different financial decisions because that money has to last, right? If you run out of money, you have to come home. And so what you're going to do overseas is going to be really different.

And how does geographic arbitrage affect your traveling decisions and your financial decisions? decisions. Like, let me see. I want to ask you like 17 questions all in one question. But if you're traveling and using your Australia example, you were in Australia and then the exchange rate changed, do you make long-term plans? Oh, I'm going to go here and here and here and here and here. Or do you make shorter-term plans and then just pivot based on what's going on in the world? When everyone plans a trip, they create long-term plans. They were like, I'm going to do this and that and this and that, this and that.

The longer you go away, the more you end up just throwing your plans away. I mean, my entire original route was very different than what it ended up to be. You know, I ended up living in Thailand for about seven months. That was not part of my plan. I originally planned to go to Australia and Fiji. I ended up skipping them and going home. I changed my route in Australia, changed my route in Europe. the longer you're away, the less you start thinking about a month or two months from now,

the more you just start thinking about a week or two from now. And so once you start shrinking that planning, you're a little bit more versatile if things cost shift or you overspend somewhere, you have to make it up. So let's say you went to Europe and you just kind of blew through your budget. So maybe you'll stay now longer in Southeast Asia before you go somewhere else, to sort of stay in the cheaper countries just to make that difference up. Sounds like planning is everything, but plans are useless when you're traveling, when you're living this nomadic life.

You plan for two years, but then you throw out the window and you're pretty opportunistic about it as things come up and reactive to the way things change. So how does, you know, is that right? Is that how someone becomes more efficient economically while they're traveling here? Is it about planning to go to these cheaper places or are there strategies? Is there a fundamental set of principles that you're applying on this journey to make the absolute most out of the experience as economically as possible? Right.

Yeah. I tell people to basically just keep a daily log of their expenses. The people that go home early don't keep track of their money. And they don't know themselves too. You know, if you are going Australia and it's been your dream to do all these activities, go bungee jumping, dive the Great Barrier Reef and do wine tours, et cetera, et cetera. And you get there, you just spend all this money and you're like, oh, I ran out of money. I didn't really budget for as many activities. Well, that's where people go wrong because they should have over budgeted, not under budgeted.

You know, you go online and it says, oh, you'll spend an average or whatever. So you write down that average in your budget. Never realizing, well, you're not going to be the average. You want more of that because it's your bucket list thing. And secondly, people just don't write down what their spending. So again, going back to that thing before you go, knowing your expenses is how you can really manage this part of goal that you have. right and so if you're just going out and you're just spending money uh buy your hostels you buy your drinks whatever you might be doing it on the cheap but are you doing within a budget and so i love it

when i'm in hostels and i see people you know with receipts you know keeping track of their expenses because those are the people who are going to make it to the end it's the people who are just like blowing through their money left and right partying doing activities that are always the ones I go home first. Yeah, that seems true in most scenarios. What are some of the best countries to stay in that will help you stay in your budget? You know, Southeast Asia is a great affordable region of the world, Eastern Europe, Central America, Taiwan, South Korea is really affordable. South Africa is actually like really affordable too, as long as you're not going to during a ton of safaris.

So there's a lot of regions around the world that are very much affordable, cheap destinations you know, for the tourists on the U.S. dollar. And, you know, so you have this pick of your litter, so to speak, you know. And right now the U.S. dollar is pretty strong. So like even if you go to Japan, you know, it's way more affordable than it used to be because you're getting 140 yen to the dollar. So, like, it's very good a skim of trade. And so, you know, what are, what am I looking for, you know, when I'm traveling here?

Am I looking for hostels? Am I looking for Airbnbs? Am I looking for hotels? Is it a similar opportunistic kind of plan or are there different regions where you're looking for different types of accommodations? Because you know that's the affordable and great experience. So hostels are really the key to a lot of affordable travel. Airbnb rooms is also great because you got to stay with somebody in their guest room,

so it's more affordable than just getting your own place completely. And it really depends on where you're on the world. You can do home stays, you can do couch surfing, which is staying with locals. There's a lot of similar services. There's one for bikers called warm showers. There's a thing called camp space. So if you're a bunch of camping gear, you can set it up in people's yards. In Europe, you can stay in monasteries.

In Australia, New Zealand, there's a lot of farm stays. And so it's very unique to different parts of the world. So there's one great thing about the information overload age we live in right now as there is you can find that information pretty easily online. I don't know what you look like in real life, Matt, but I know what Scott looks like in real life. He's a pretty big guy. And he played rugby for a lot of years. If somebody wanted to take him on, they'd get a good fight.

I'm not that big. And I have always felt like staying in a hostel would be a little bit scary because you're just in a big room with a bunch of other people, gender unspecific, right? There's not like women's rooms and men's rooms. It's just like one big room and whoever's sleeping there is sleeping there. So how do you keep yourself safe in a situation like this? Hossils are relatively safe. I am only 5'7. I never played rugby.

You know, hostels are just young travelers looking to have fun. Yeah, that's not to say nothing bad ever happens. Alcohol gets involved, you know, egos get involved. You know, I mean, I've met creepy people in hostels. Me, creepy people in real life. But generally, hostels are very safe because there's always people awake coming and going. Most of the issues I have I've heard about or seen really revolved around, you know, somebody like stealing something, you know, grabbing something. Somebody leaves a computer out, somebody grabs a phone on their way out.

And so that's why hostels have lockers and, you know, it's bring you in a lock kind of thing. because you do have, you know, you're in a huge room and, okay, you have 30 strangers who used to say one doesn't like stealing stuff. But that said, like physical violence is a real rarity in the hostile scene. There's also the guy that will exchange your $100 of American currency for worthless Belarusian currency when you're visiting the Czech Republic. One of those people. So maybe there is a different.

here in terms of how you feel about it as a man or particularly, you know, me being a larger than average man, for example, in staying in these locations that we should acknowledge to some degree in terms of some comfort, even though to your point there's a lot of safety. But I also want to piggyback on this and ask, pointily, is this a young person's game here? Like, are in these hostiles? You talked about young people having a good time. Is this something that I'm going to have a lot? Am I going to have to adopt a different strategy from my 30s or 40s and wanting to do this either alone or with a partner than somebody who's in their early 20s in a practical sense? You see people of all ages in hostels.

I mean, granted, when you're 42, you don't really want to sleep in a dorm. So you don't see as many older people sleeping in dorms. But that hostel experience is good for all ages. I mean, I haven't seen seven-year-olds in hostels. When you ask why, they're just like, because it's fun. You know, you get to meet other travelers, you know, or you stay in a hotel, interact with nobody, right? And, you know, and then there are our hostels that are clearly party hostels.

And then there's family hostels and ones that paid at school trips and, you know, older travelers and more boutique hostels. So it really runs the gamut these days. You know, people think of. hostels, especially in the States. Younger people less so because there's more exposure to newer hostels. But, you know, older millennials, plus we think of hostels like we see on the movies, you know, these like danky, you know, 100 gross beds in the dorm and everyone's loud.

It's just gross and nothing's clean. And that really doesn't exist that much anymore. because hostels have really improved themselves in the last 10 years as the younger clientele has become more demanding and has just better expectations of amenities. But you can really find hostels that for all ages and all travel types, you know, if he just don't want to stay at a party hostel, most hostels label themselves as party hostels these days. Okay, so let's switch gears here and talk about activities to do when you're traveling. You mentioned that you should always be on the lookout for inexpensive or free activities.

What are some of the things you've done while you're traveling that you can't get in America? I think you get everything in America. But I will say that, you know, free walking tours, every major city in the world has a free walking tour. and that's a great way to get your bearings on where you are in the history of the place and kind of be like, okay, this is where this thing is, that thing is. And actually talk to somebody that lives there and be like, okay, what do you do for fun? Where should I go for fun? Where do you eat?

You know, what's a non-torcy place to go is something a little bit more unique. So I love free walking tours. I love going into the local tourism board. asking them basically what's cool to do that's inexpensive because the people that work there, they live their whole life, right? So, or at least a long time. And so they're going to know, oh, you got, if you really want to, you know, cheap produce, like this store is where to go.

If you, you know, want free activities, go to this park. There's always like some festival or weekend activity going on. And this museum is free on Thursdays. You can do free commune X, Y, Z. And so tourism boards, I think, are really underutilized source of information because you have, if travel is replicating your day-to-day life in terms of costs, these are people who live in this place and are doing that, right? they know like oh if you want like pre-made meals go to this grocery store after 8 for 2% off

this same thing like you know the budget hacks of the place you live because you live there they have the same kind of tips when I was so again I never traveled like you Matt I did you know six eight weeks in Europe with two of my buddies after college and did a lot of the things you're talking about here but what we did was we we flew a lot of places. We didn't take the buses and trains. We stayed in hostels, of course, and, you know, partied and sightseed, site sale every single day for a while. And by the end of it, I was ready to go home. I kind of out of money, but mostly I was burned out of traveling. I was exhausted. You know, it was just way too much from a sustainability point

of view. How do you recommend folks that are looking for this traveling lifestyle? Like, how did you sustain it for a long period of time, not just financially, but mentally and avoid burnout? You know, I just gave a talk on burnout recently. Everyone burns out. You think of this life as like nonstop adventure, right? You're going to do all these great things. But you never see the missing the bus, the waiting for the delay train, the stuck in the airport, the guy that screws you over for money, having to find an ATM, you know, packing up, unpacking, meeting new friends. Like, every day you're reinventing your life, you know, like, you go through life with mental

shortcuts. Otherwise, it's impossible to like go through life, right? It's like, why do you always buy the same things? Because you don't want to think about it. bit, right? It's Steve Jobs famously wore the same outfit every day. So we didn't have to make that one decision because every decision you make is just mentally tax it. Kind of like why when you're driving, right, you can just kind of half your brain is driving and the other half isn't because you've created all these mental shortcuts. So you know like if you're driving on the same road every day, you don't really need to think about it, right? You just your body goes on auto pilot. There's no autopilot on the road because everywhere you go is new. So you have to

figure out every day, okay, how do I get from point eight point eight? How do I navigate this metric system? How do I know if this person is trying to screw me over on a Belarusian currency? How do I make friends? How do I know this restaurant isn't going to give me food poisoning? And so eventually your mind just kind of was like, I don't want to do this. It's always just tell people, stop, take a break, stay in one place for a little bit, get to know it, and recharge your batteries, just sit around and watch Netflix for a week, who cares, right? Like, you know, you have all the time in the world, right? You have a limited amount of money and a lot of time.

So, you know, so just wait a way to that. Travel is a battery that needs to be recharged, that's what I always tell people, right? It's not this unlimited wellspring of energy. You eventually will get burnt out and tired, and you'll just be like, I don't want to see another temple. I don't want to go to another church. I don't want to see another art museum. Like, I just want to, like, stay in one place and, like, do laundry, you know, and just, like,

you know, so, like, just stay in one place for a couple of weeks. You know, and everyone I know who to travel is really long term. The longer they're on the road, the more time they spend in one destination before they move off. Because they just don't want to pack and unpack their bag every other day. It's just tiring. And so, yeah, just stop. I always hope you just stop. Say, if you like where you are, just stay there for a week, maybe two weeks, you know.

You can always move on. You can always go back somewhere else. like, you know, if you can keep, if you try to push through, you're just going to hate everywhere. And you're just going to increase your burnout. And then you're just going to go home, which is what I did when I first went away. And you're going to be like, why the hell did I come home? I should have just stayed in one place, recharge my battery and kept going. Because then you're home and you're like, this kind of not where I want to be.

Well, Matt, thank you so much for sharing all these wonderful tips. It's just awesome to get a viewpoint into your life with the thousands of nights that you've stayed in these hostels, the probably countless incredible memories that you've created here. And really, really awesome lifestyle for folks to explore here. And it doesn't sound like it's going to break the bank. This is something that if you want to work for it and prioritize is within the reach of most people, probably in their 20s, most likely, but for everyone, really, to go and explore

and maybe choose to do for a couple months or a couple of years, potentially. Yeah, as long as you can save for it, you know, it took me three years to save for my trip, you know, there's no time of it. It takes you five years, you know, there you go, get something to look forward to. A lot of people are like, oh, I can't afford to travel. Okay, well, you can't afford to travel now, but a little bit of money every day will eventually add up to enough. Awesome, Matt. Well, thank you so much for your time today, and we'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, that was Matt Kepness. That was a fun look at nomadic travel and also a really interesting look at some travel hacking. Scott, what did you think? I think it's just awesome to meet folks like Matt that have just a completely different way of going about life and a completely different set of life experiences. I mean, good for him. He created an incredible lifestyle, made countless memories and different types of things, really kind of mastered this, I think, aspiration. that a lot of folks have for traveling and seeing the world and made a profession out of it. And it's helped a lot of people, I think, recreate it. It's not an out-of-reach goal. There is a

trade-off, right? You're not going to be able to do certain types of careers if you're pursuing this. You're not going to be able to make certain types of investments as easily. But, you know, again, we've read that book, Die with Zero. The memories you make from a trip like this for a year or two, there's something potentially to retire on right there. I got a couple of really interesting tips from him. First was the credit cards coming, the travel cards having higher interest rates. And if you don't pay off your balance every month, it's really not worth it to do the credit card, travel hacking points thing. I do pay off my credit cards every month, but I didn't realize that they came with higher interest rates. I think that's a really important takeaway. And also the comment about vacation versus traveling, you're not. on vacation, you're just living in a different place. So you're not doing all of these extravagant things. And I think that that can help reframe how much this is going to cost you to do. And there are less expensive places to be Greece. I could go live in Greece for way less than I'm

living right now. My friend Linda lives in Portugal and she lives there for far less than she could if she lived in America. There's lots of places that you can live for less. I mean, you might even be able to be fine now if you lived in a lower cost of living area. And then if you live in Portugal, you just zip on over to Spain for the weekend or you zip on over to France for the weekend and have a slightly more expensive weekend while still completely living in a totally inexpensive place and having the time of your life. Everybody should be Linda. Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny that Like, I, you know, we just talked about these awesome world travels. And I would love to see more of the world and I will.

I plan to with it. But, you know, often when I go on these travels, like, or think about these trips, you know, even my awesome Ireland trip, right? A couple years ago, right before COVID, you know, I come back and I'm like, oh, like, the mountains here in Colorado, pretty good. They're right there. The weather is pretty good here. I got, like, my car, like, everything's super convenient.

There's good, like, I know where I can get good food. I know where I can, you know, have my very, happy day. There's like the gym. And so sometimes it's, it's kind of a good reminder of like, you know, do I, like, I want to travel and see the world, of course, and all that. But like I also, it's also kind of important and maybe a refresher to remind you of how good, how good being back home is. There's no right answer to this game of life and game of financial freedom, only different, only different paths and avenues to explore. And I think everyone should go and try this, this nomadic lifestyle at some point if they can in

their lives. And maybe, maybe you love it. Maybe it'll make you appreciate what you have back home. You know, living in Colorado, it really is hard to be like, oh, maybe I want to go see different things. We've got so much right here. You are right. You know, I drive my kids to school every morning and my route takes me west, which is where the mountains are. So every morning, I see that big, beautiful expanse of the front range. I'm like, you know. Me too, with daycare.

Yeah. This doesn't suck. Yeah. This view is really nice. What a conclusion to draw from today's episode. So there you have it, guys. Oh, wow, we did have one more tip parting thought here. We talked with Matt and the aftermath of the recording.

And one thing we didn't talk about was insurance. And he says he always gets travel insurance. And three sites that he recommended if people check out for travel insurance are safety wing, insure my trip, and MedJet. Yes, because you never know what's going to happen. having travel insurance is a really great way to make yourself whole should something unsavory. And that covers, you know, things like robbery, theft, medical expenses and some other things as well. So something to look into as part of your planning process, wherever you decide to travel to.

All right, Scott, on that parting note, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this travel episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying, Hit the road, happy Toad. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash BiggerPockets Money. BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaelin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub.

Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.