BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 466: The Retirement Planning Roadmap: 401(k)s, Real Estate, Bonds & More

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Robert Brokamp from The Motley Fool and talk about planning for retirement. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Scott Trench. And with me as always is my electric co-host, Miss Mindy. How you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I did a thing. Yeah, I heard we have some charged news. Yes, yes. I am super excited to announce that I am finally the owner of a Tesla Model Y. and picked it up this morning. So finally I can stop harassing Carl about buying a Model Y. And now he can harass me about getting to drive it because I am taking over and I am commandeering his vehicle. So sorry, sweetheart. You're going to have to buy another one if you want to be able to drive

Starting point is 00:00:48 your electric vehicle. Fantastic, Mindy. We'll continue with the automatic driving and all keep us going here with Mindy and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else to introduce you to every money story and every possible plan to early retirement or traditional retirement because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you're starting. That's right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or Tesla, or start your own business, will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself toward your dreams. Now is the time for the segment of our show called The Money Moment where we share

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Starting point is 00:04:44 30-day trial at audible.com slash BPMoney. Robert Brokamp is a former financial planner who still has his certification, but while he's a financial planner, he's not your financial planner. And he's also a former English teacher, so expect some great grammar during today's episode. He is now at the Motley Fool, where he is the lead advisor for the Motley Fool's Rule Your Retirement Service and contributed to the Motley Fool Money podcast. Robert, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thanks, Mindy. It's so great to be here. Robert, let's jump right into your background.

Starting point is 00:05:21 Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at The Motley Fool? Yeah, so I graduated from college in the early 90s. As you mentioned, I was an English teacher, so I started doing that because I couldn't afford a car because I didn't have enough money. And that's what I decided, you know, I probably shouldn't learn more about money. So I started reading books, listening to radio shows, looking at a relatively new thing at the time called the Internet. And that's how I first found the Motley Fool because it was one of the earlier sort of mainstream financial websites. And my first reaction was, why weren't we taught this stuff in school? Why am I, as someone in my 20s just learning about saving for retirement? What an IRA is? How to invest? Okay. You just

Starting point is 00:06:00 mentioned a trigger for me. You said, why weren't we taught this in school? And as you were telling your story, I'm like, yeah, 23 years later, no, 33 years later, we're still just now getting this into high school curriculums. Class of 2024? 2025 is the first year in Colorado that you have to take a personal financial literacy class. And it's half a credit. Today we're going to talk about retirement planning and what folks need to do to achieve basically a traditional retirement or perhaps a slightly early retirement. It starts with saving 15%. Rule of thumb there. It starts, I imagine, as early as you can. can possibly start with that. What are some things? How do we guide more people to begin that journey?

Starting point is 00:06:53 Well, hopefully it's teaching them that the sooner to start the better. And you probably have seen illustrations that show, you know, someone who starts saving a 25 and stops at 35 is going to have more money for retirement in their 60s than someone who waits till they're 35 and then saves for those 30 years till they're 65. Just getting that early start is better. And if you've never seen this illustration, go check out J.P. Morgan's Guide to Retirement. It's this annual publication that they do that's free. It has all kinds of awesome charts about retirement. So that's one way to see this illustration. We want to start saving early. We know the compounding nature of the returns that you can get over decades and the power of that. I want to get in a little bit

Starting point is 00:07:33 more tactical for a second here and drill in around a good 401k plan versus a bad 401k plan and what we should be investing in, in your opinion, in order to get to that long-term retirement. So it does start with if you've got a match that's great. That makes for a good 401k plan. The average match is between 4 and 5% these days, so you would on a good match. Costs are a consideration. It costs money to run a 401k. And hopefully your employer is covering those costs and not making you shoulder them or embedding them in the mutual fund expense ratios. So it's important to know who's paying the costs of the 401K. And then what to invest in really It depends on your interest in learning about investing.

Starting point is 00:08:17 These days, almost all 401 plans have target date funds, which is a mutual fund of mutual funds that has a reasonable asset allocation based on your age. And it gets gradually more conservative as you approach retirement. I think that's a great one-stop shop for people. You could probably do better if you learn on your own. I'm a big fan of index funds. We have the Mali, we'll talk a lot about investing in individual stocks. I do that too. but the foundation of my retirement portfolio is index funds.

Starting point is 00:08:45 Awesome. And by the way, I'll just call it mine too, right? We talk about real estate all day long. Foundation of my retirement portfolio is a boring, old-fashioned index funds. Same deal with that. And yeah, I completely agree. That's something that a lot of people don't realize is that employer sponsored 401K plans because we had, I think, a similar dynamic years back before we transitioned to a new plan here at bigger pockets.

Starting point is 00:09:07 they can have absurd expense ratios, like 1% just for managing the plan, and then on top of that, there can be fees inside of the individual assets that are within the plan. Let's say I work at a company for five or 10 years and I've been in that plan. Maybe it's to my advantage to be in the plan because I'm getting a match and I'm getting the tax things there. Any advice for what to do once that employment ends with funds in the, in the, in, inside of these, what-called bad plans? Joe's speaking, it's best to move the plan. So roll it over to an IRA or roll it over to the 401k of your next employer.

Starting point is 00:09:45 I prefer an IRA because an IRA just has more choices, right? The typical 401K plan has 20 to 30 mutual funds. 20% of plans do have a side brokerage account like we do here at the Bollyfool, which basically means you can buy anything, but most don't. So I prefer rolling it over to an IRA, gives you a lot more choices, control of costs. And you do want to do, if you can, a trustee to trustee transfer, it's going from one institution to the other. You generally would avoid receiving a check from your old plan.

Starting point is 00:10:14 But if you do get it into the new account quickly, otherwise it can be considered a distribution and you'll be taxed and penalized. You mentioned that you have your big fan of index funds. You have some individual stocks. Looking at your personal portfolio, what would you say the percentage is of individual stocks versus index funds. So it's about 30% individual stocks, 70% index funds. And that used to be lower. It got bigger because I lucked out with the stocks I bought. I think we're all Tesla investors. Are you right about that? Two thirds of us are. Two thirds of us are. Okay. I knew somebody was. And that's, I mean, that's just luck, right? I've got some great winners. I have some losers.

Starting point is 00:11:01 And then there's the index funds, right? And we all like to say, I like index funds, but you do have to choose which index funds, which asset classes you're going to invest in. If you invested like a SAB 500 index fund, you're looking great. If you have bond index funds, international index funds, small cap index funds, which I have and I believe in, those have been sort of lagging. So my individual stock portfolio has been outperforming my index fund portfolio. I don't know if that will always be the case, but I think it's important to have a little bit of both. Okay. And let's say somebody's listening who is just getting started on their individual investment journey. How would you recommend they allocate their investments? You said that

Starting point is 00:11:45 your stocks used to be less than 30%, but you've had some luck. And I like that you use the L word and didn't say, oh, I'm just a really great stock picker. No, you're not. You got lucky just like we did. Exactly. So, I mean, you can start with an index fund, S.B.5 an index fund. I like a total stock market index fund because that is a little bit more of the midcaps and small caps. You can just start there and be fine. The good thing about investing these days is most discount brokerages don't charge commissions, and many of them allow you to buy fractional shares, which means you don't need to save up, you know, $1,000 to buy one share of a stock that's trading for $1,000. You can buy a fraction. So I think it's fine to invest small.

Starting point is 00:12:29 all of amounts of money, individual stocks as the spirit moves you, we like at the value fool for you. If you're going to go to the individual stock route to have at least 25 stocks, ideally more, no more than 10% of your portfolio in a single stock and no more than 30% in a single sector. So you can actually build up a pretty diversified portfolio of individual stocks with small amounts of monies these days because of fractional shares and no trading commissions. And then frankly, as you're starting out, you'll just decide, what you like. You may think, you know what, I bought these stocks and then I never pay attention to anymore. I have no interest in listening to their earnings reports. I have no interest in following

Starting point is 00:13:10 the CEO. And then it just sort of goes to the way side you stick with index funds. Or you may find that you just love investing individual stocks. There are people of the Molly Fool who pay attention to stocks the same way. People pay attention to their favorite sports team. And that's great too. So you try out that and you'll figure out which one you want to go. But like I said, even if you become a dedicated stock picker, I still think it makes sense to have a foundation of index funds. You know, I want to transition us now to thinking about what the ideal retirement portfolio looks like for an investor. And because we just talked about, hey, no more than 10% in any individual stock, all that kind of stuff, I have met a large number of investors on bigger pockets who have kind of wacky portfolios for good reasons, right? Hey, I bought Tesla stock 10 years ago.

Starting point is 00:13:58 and now it's 40% of my portfolio because it boomed. It was one of the best performing stocks of all time. What do you do in a situation like that? I might have started with my ideal allocation and then got warped way out of whack because something performed way beyond expectations, for example, over the last 20 years. How do I transition away from my Tesla stock in this example, tax efficiently in a way that that's going to actually improve my position and how I feel about my portfolio? Right. So first of all, you can do it with cash flow. So if you're still saving for retirement, you just make sure that your future contributions go into something else. And ideally something very different, a different type of stock or a different kind of sector, number one. And if you're retired, your best performer is where you start to look for what to sell to raise cash, right, to bring that allocation down a little bit. Another thing you can do if you have a stock that pays a dividend is to just make sure you don't reinvest the dividends, right? You take the dividends of cash and you invest

Starting point is 00:14:57 those somewhere else. And then another way, and Tesla is a great example, because it's been up and down, you do some tax loss harvesting, right? You reduce the allocation, right? At some point, Tesla is down, what, 50 percent? And so you do some tax loss harvesting, you get the tax benefit, plus you somewhat reduce your allocation. But those are some ideas. There are people, though, who, you know, believe so much in a single company that they're comfortable with that. And I'm not going to tell him they're wrong, right? Warren Buffett is one of the richest people in the world because he has his net worth tied up in one stock. Now, Berkshire Hathaway, of course, is very diversified. I own Berkshire Hathaway as well. But, you know, there are plenty of people who will say,

Starting point is 00:15:40 like, I'm fine with having 30 or 40 percent in this one stock because I know it so well and I believe it's a while. That's what you want to do and you're experienced at it and you've demonstrated ability to be right about such things. Fine. But for the average person, I think you should keep it to five to 10 percent. Warren Buffett runs that company. That's true. He does. That all of his money is tied up in. So I think that's you can't compare, like not you, Robert, but if that's somebody else's

Starting point is 00:16:06 argument, well, you can't use that as an argument because Warren gets to make these decisions. Also, he's smart. He is very smart. So two-part question here. Can you explain tax loss harvesting for those who are new to the term? And then for those who are advanced, you know, and understand what? tax loss harvesting means, can you explain, you know, can you address the argument, the potential counter argument, hey, well, if I was tax lost harvesting Tesla stock and it was peaked at 400 and it bought,

Starting point is 00:16:34 you know, in what is that, 2021, and it bottomed out at 123 in December of 2022. And now it's back up to 264. Didn't I lose a lot of much more money by selling at the bottom than I gained by tax loss harvesting? So tax loss harvesting only works in a taxable brokerage account, what we're work in an IRA or 401k. You basically, if the stock fall, or any investment, could be bond, could be options, could be mutual funds. If it falls below the price you paid for it, you can sell it at a loss. At first, that loss offsets any gains you have, and then up to $3,000 of individual income. If you have losses beyond that, you can carry it forward to future years. So it's a tax deduction. Now, to take that tax deduction, though, you have to make sure you do not violate the

Starting point is 00:17:24 wash sale rule. And that is when you sell that, we'll keep talking about Tesla. So if you sell Tesla, you cannot buy it back for 30 days. But then once the 31st day, actually think of it the 32nd day, because the 30-day clock starts the day after you sold it, then you can buy it back. And yes, if it took off in that 30-day period, you're like, ah, darn it. I wish. I wish you, I didn't do that. But the stock market in generally is kind of like a coin flip on a monthly basis. So it's just as likely that the stock will go up as come down. So you're probably going to be okay. And again, I put that also in the context of you wanted to reduce your exposure to the stock anyhow. So that was, it's just sort of like an added bonus to that. Okay. So, so, um, walk us, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:18 Look, I assume the allocation is very different for someone in the accumulation phase. At the retirement phase, are you seeing like an optimal portfolio or kind of one that you would sketch out for someone that is really transitioning and saying, no, I'm going to actually stop working and earning active income and I'm going to live off this investment portfolio? What does that look like to you? So I'll just start with the foundation of any portfolio, whether you're retired or not, and that is any money you need in the next three or five years should not be in the stock market. The stock market, if you look at it as a whole, is profitable about 80, a little bit more than 80% of time over three and five year period.

Starting point is 00:18:54 So it's just better to keep that out of the stock market, keep it in cash or something like that. So that's the start. Now, when you're talking about in retirement, for me, the best place that starts is to look at the research on safe withdrawal rates, right? We all love the 4% rule. And you two did a great interview with Bill Bangin back in 2020. And the research on safe withdrawal rates is pretty clear that retirees should have at least 30% in the stock market and no more than 70 or 75%. So the sweet spot really is that 60% stocks, 40% cash bonds that we've all heard about the balanced portfolio, that's a great starting point for a retirement portfolio. And then you adjust accordingly to various circumstances like your risk tolerance, whether you have a pension, your age, things like that.

Starting point is 00:19:45 Okay. And weird about what's your take on how, you know, a bigger pockets member who's maybe got 50% of the portfolio in real estate? How does one think about that as an alternative asset class as a huge part of your portfolio if that's how you've built it up? I'm not an expert in that. But here's what I would say. When I think of a portfolio, you think of risks and rewards, right? potential good things and potential bad things. So with the real estate portfolio, and I would say the same thing if you have businesses, any other sort of thing beyond the traditional stocks of bond portfolio, you have to think in terms of, okay, what bad could happen to that part of my portfolio? And I should set up my investment portfolio so it diversifies away from it. So like just easy example, right?

Starting point is 00:20:34 If you invest directly into a lot of commercial real estate, maybe you shouldn't buy real estate investment trusts. If you have a lot of rental real estate, for example, a big issue there, as you know, is you have to have some level of liquidity because you might have to make repairs or you have bad tenants, which is something that happened to my parents when they tried to invest in real estate when I was a kid. So you might have to be a little bit more liquid in your investment portfolio than maybe someone who didn't have that real estate. So again, think in terms of like what could go wrong and what should I do with the rest of my portfolio. So that will hold up if my real estate or my business suffers.

Starting point is 00:21:13 Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going and more importantly where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments,

Starting point is 00:21:41 net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in a needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year.

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Starting point is 00:24:22 And the market is up and down and up and down. and it's going to crash any minute. Just read the newspaper, read the online news, I guess. I might be the only person still getting newspaper. But read the news and it'll tell you that there's a crash coming. So how do you account for this outside of this? I love this. Anything three to five years shouldn't be in the stock market.

Starting point is 00:24:45 Oh, I love that quote. But how do you account for these inflationary periods that are going to come up and these down markets that are going to come up in these unexpected life events that are going to happen during your retirement planning. Yeah. So the crash is coming, by the lay. We just don't know when. But it'll happen. Like I can tell you, if you're going to invest in the stock market, you are going to see your portfolio who dropped 50% or more, at least once or twice, maybe more over the course of your life. That's going to happen. And in real estate too. That of real estate, too. Anything, really, anything. Even a bond market, right? Last year,

Starting point is 00:25:16 the bond market was down 13%. Worst year ever for bonds, which just goes to show that, sometimes the future does look different than the past. But anyway, so these things happen. Right. So you have the money out of the stock market. By the way, in retirement, we call that your income cushion. Like five years of any money you need from your portfolio. It's safe.

Starting point is 00:25:37 Cash, treasuries, CDs, things like that. In your stock portfolio, you have different offsetting types of stocks. So last year, the NASDAQ was down 33%. Value stocks, you know, boring blue check. dividend pairs only down 5%. In my individual stock portfolio, my two biggest holdings are Tesla and Berkshire Hathaway. And they kind of take turns offsetting each other because they're different type of stocks. So you own enough stocks so that something ideally will be up or at least not down quite so much in case you need your money. The other thing to think about, though, in terms of

Starting point is 00:26:14 retirement planning is there are different stages. I think of three stages. You're young, you're working, you're transitioning to retirement, maybe that last decade and then in retirement. When you are working, your biggest asset is your human capital. That determines how much you can earn, how much you can spend in your year, how you can cover your bills, and how much you can save. A market downturn then is actually good because all future contributions to your 401k go and buy stocks at lower prices. So when you're younger, focus on your human capital. Life is basically all about transitioning your human capital to investment capital. So the point where you retire, you're now living completely off your investment capital.

Starting point is 00:26:55 And that's where you have to play things a little differently because if the market goes down, it's not like, well, I'll just buy more stocks because you don't have the money. That's why you have to have some money to live off, a safe money to live off while you wait for your stocks to recover. You mentioned bonds being down 13%. And one thing that I think really, well, I've talked to a lot of financially independent folks. And what I've yet to find are the folks that are true. ruling off of a 4% rule portfolio, selling off chunks of their equity in early retirement,

Starting point is 00:27:26 perhaps is different for traditional retirement age there. And the real ace in the whole is income. Are there any tools that you can use and go after that will produce that reliable income things, kind of set it and forget it to help you with that transition phase, to accelerate the transition phase? Now you're talking about for people who are early retirees or more normal age retirees. Let's do both. Are there different options available to each? I would say that I'm not quite the expert for early retirees in terms of what you're talking about other than things that you're better experts at in terms of like real estate and things like that that ideally provides a passive income and things like that. For folks who are in retirement, you do have something that

Starting point is 00:28:13 provides that regular source of income, and that is Social Security. And I'm a big believer. in people delaying Social Security for as long as possible. So every year you delay, it increases around 8%. Social Security is safe. I know the program has challenges, but I think they'll be solved. It adjusts for inflation. So, Mindy, you were talking about protecting against inflation. It protects against inflation.

Starting point is 00:28:38 And Social Security is partially tax-free. And if you're under a certain level of income, it's completely tax-free. So maximizing that is a great retirement. strategy. And if you want even more guaranteed income beyond Social Security, I actually like plain vanilla annuities. And I know annuities are a bad word for good reason. Many of them are expensive and lousy and pushed by horrible people. But the traditional single premium immediate annuity, you hand over a lump sum to an insurance company and get a check in the mail every month for the rest of your life. It is a great source of income for many folks.

Starting point is 00:29:19 particularly people who are really worried about outliving their money. Maybe they have a family history of longevity. And you would take a portion that you would otherwise devote to bonds in your retirement portfolio and put a little bit in this type of annuity. So you know you have that income coming in every month. Okay. I've got a lot of questions. First, you said delay Social Security for as long as you can. Let's say that I can delay Social Security indefinitely. At what age does it no longer make sense to delay Social Security? So you get Social Security benefit based on your work record, and that you delay to age 70. Once you've reached 870, you might as well take Social Security.

Starting point is 00:30:03 Even if you're still working, go ahead and take it because there's no benefit of delay. Now, you might also, if you're married, you will get Social Security either based on your work record or half of your spouse's benefit, whichever is higher. And that does not, there's no reason to delay that. beyond your full retirement age, which is 66 to 67, depending on the year you were born. But study after study, like I'm not making this up, many studies have looked at this. It's really the optimal strategy for people is to delay to at least full retirement age, if not age 70. Really, the only exception is if you have reason to believe you have a below average life expectancy.

Starting point is 00:30:41 But I am a big fan of people using tools to solve this. There are some tools that you can pay for. but there's a free one. Open social security.com. It's operated by Mike Piper, who is a CFA and an author. And that's a great way to look at it. That way it looks at your actual numbers, especially if you're married. There might be some different strategies to use.

Starting point is 00:31:01 And it gives you sort of a mathematical answer to the best claiming strategy for you. But I just have a more question on Social Security, right? So I'm 33. How skeptical should I be of the income from Social Security being in its full? current state by the time that I reach for traditional retirement age. You should be 25% skeptical because in 2033, the trust funds will work run out. And at that point, Social Security will only have enough money to cover about 77% of the benefits.

Starting point is 00:31:34 It is important to know that Social Security is a pay-as-you-go program, right? The three of us are working. We pay Social Security taxes. The vast majority that goes to pay for the checks of current retirees. And when we're retired, the people who are working then will pay us. So it's mostly funded, but not fully funded. So I definitely think that for people who are younger in their 50s and younger, should assume that they will only get 75% of what they're promised.

Starting point is 00:32:02 That's bad news, but it's better than nothing. I love that answer. And that's how I've long thought about it. Like a lot of people are, oh, Social Security is bankrupt. Well, it is not sustainable in its present form, but it doesn't mean it's going to go to zero. right in terms of you're not going to get the base. You're going to get 77% of the benefits that you're hopefully, you know, that the past generations have gotten, not zero.

Starting point is 00:32:25 Yes. No, it's survey after survey shows that, you know, all kinds of like millennials in particular or Gen Y thinking, Gen Z thinking that they're not going to get anything. But you will get something, but it's safe to assume you won't get as much as you're currently promised. Awesome. Now, let's go to annuities.

Starting point is 00:32:41 We had a great discussion about annuities a while back. And I think Mindy and I have moved on from them being a dirty word to being something, hey, you know, there's a lot of freedom and power in a very predictable, very safe stream of income. Walk us through why you like this SPIA, the single premium immediate annuity. And a couple of other questions. Is it indexed to inflation? Who's actually guaranteeing it? How sure should I be that they'll be able to guarantee it for the rest of my life? Those types of high-level questions. Yeah, those are great questions. And so we've talked about the 4% rule, right? And, but if you were to go to an annuity provider, an insurance company, if you're a 65-year-old female, for example, and handed over

Starting point is 00:33:25 $100,000, you would actually get a withdrawal rate that's basically 7.3%. Because, and here's the downside, right? When you buy one of these annuities, if you die a year later, you don't get any money back. So it's the people who die soon who subsidize the income from the people who have above average life expectancies. So that's one of the risks. The other risk is most of these do not adjust for inflation. There used to be inflation adjust annuities and not anymore. However, there is a good bit of debate about how much inflation protection retirees actually need. They're already getting it from their stock portfolio over the long term.

Starting point is 00:34:09 They're getting it from Social Security. they may not need any more beyond that. And it is an insurance company. So you should pick a highly rated insurance company, ideally A or higher. If you're going to put a lot of money in one of these, you might want to split it up to put it a few insurance companies.

Starting point is 00:34:25 And every state has a guarantee fund. You can think of it sort of like FDIC insurance for insurance companies. And it's not quite like that, but conceptually the same. It varies by state anywhere from $100,000 to $500,000, but most states do have some backing in case an insurance company goes under. So look, that's an unbelievable return, right?

Starting point is 00:34:47 7.3% on your money. It's not indexed to inflation, but still, that's great. Guaranteed for the rest of your life, I think a lot of people would take that deal. I imagine this is not available to me as a 33-year-old reasonably healthy, healthy guy. This is available after you reach a certain age limit or have certain, you know, you have to qualify through some means for this, right? Well, I would just say that the market is geared towards people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. Is there an insurance company that would give you, Scott, an annuity?

Starting point is 00:35:17 Possibly. I mean, why not reach out and find out? I mean, a great place to see quotes for immediate annuities is amidatea annuities.com. You put in your age and your state. And it gives quotes from different insurance companies. So, I don't know, go ahead. Put your birthday in there, Scott. And we'll see if they give you a quote or not.

Starting point is 00:35:36 I will certainly do that. I do not think I'm going to get 7.3% though. Well, you're not. And this is the key point that I was going to say. Annuity payments are based on two criteria. One is life expectancy. So the longer you delay, the better the payout. So most people should wait at least until their 70s, really, to start thinking about this.

Starting point is 00:35:54 Maybe 60s, but mostly 70s. Immediate annuities.com unfortunately says that your age today must be 40 or higher. So I'll have to wait seven more years. I'll get back to you on my rate. Yeah. Close. You're close. That's right.

Starting point is 00:36:07 And then the other thing is interest rates, right? I talked about how you would take this money to buy an immediate annuity out of the bond side of your portfolio because when the insurance company takes that money, they're just going to invest it in a portfolio of bonds. When interest rates are higher, they have higher payouts. Interest rates now are the highest they've been in more than 15 years. So annuity payouts today are much better than they were five or seven years ago. And I'll just add one other thing. Like, these aren't for everybody.

Starting point is 00:36:35 I'll give an example of how I think I'll probably end up buying an annuity. I might buy it when I'm in my 70s anyhow, but I'm the guy who manages the money in our household. My wife is wonderful and smart, but she's a mental health therapist and a counseling professor. Like money's not her thing. And many people are like this, right? If there's one money manager in the household, you first of all have to have a plan what happens to that money manager. And if that were to happen today, we have a financial advisor already picked out who my wife will contact. But let's say we're in our 70s.

Starting point is 00:37:04 and I pass away then. My wife would be a great candidate for an annuity because, first of all, she doesn't want to manage money. She just wants a check coming in. Plus, longevity runs in her family. Many of people in her family have lived to their 90s or even over 100. So she's a great candidate because she doesn't want a hands-on approach to investing and she has above-average life expectancy. That's how we'll probably use it in our household. Look, I think that you're trading the potential for greater returns. If you know what you're doing as an investor, you're going to get better returns. Most likely on average, by a good amount, then you will get with an annuity. But there's also something just freeing about, you know, about saying, no, I'm going to buy this income and I don't have to worry about it anymore. I can focus on other things, and I know I'm not going to run out for the foreseeable future. And so that's, I think, a legitimate value. And as long as you understand that, know that you are giving arbitrage.

Starting point is 00:38:01 likely to an insurance company who will make better returns on the money than what they're going to pay out. That's fine. That can be just a wonderful way to live your life and enjoy retirement. I totally agree. Okay. Is there a net worth minimum that makes annuities no longer make sense? We are, you know, more focused on the early retiree than the traditional retiree and the 4% rule. and, you know, I would assume that after, well, I know that after a certain amount of, after a certain amount of net worth, life insurance no longer makes sense. You simply self-insure. And does the same apply to an annuity? Yes, I think so.

Starting point is 00:38:42 I would look at more in terms of withdrawal rates, right? If you only need 2% of your portfolio a year in retirement to be happy, there's a very, very, very slim chance you're going to run out of. money, right? You can just take the interest and dividends from your investments and that will cover your living expenses. I'll use an extreme example as we brought up Warren Buffett, right? In his, one of his annual letters, he wrote that when he passes away, he's directed the administrator of his estate to invest his wife's portfolio, 90% in an S&P 500 index fund and 10% in treasury bills. His wife is now almost 80, I think, right? That's an aggressive portfolio for someone who's almost 80, but she's also going to have tens of millions of dollars. So it's perfectly fine for her to have an aggressive portfolio and she

Starting point is 00:39:30 would certainly not need an annuity. So, you know, one of the things that we don't do a lot here on Bigger Pockets Money is talk to folks going through the traditional retirement process. So I just would love to ask you a couple of questions as we wrap up here about folks in that situation because we're so focused on early retirement and what folks can do now. I wonder, you know, not knowing what I don't know here, if a lot of these traditional retirees either dramatically overshoot their retirement spending or are way under, coming in way under. Are you seeing a lot of folks kind of finesse it right through in that catch-up phase in the last 10 years? Am I wrong on that? How does that break out? Like, do we have these buckets here where you're really going

Starting point is 00:40:14 way too far and you're building up way more cash and too conservative and other folks who are totally are caught until the unprepared? So there's such wide variation. I mean, you will find examples of just about everything you said. What I will say is that the average person is probably not saving enough for retirement and that they could use that last 10 years, especially once the kids are out house and college is paid off, to sort of play catch up. Unfortunately, most of them don't, but they could. That said, the typical consumer of financial media, whether it's podcasts or reading articles is probably on track if not doing better. And so people listening to this podcast, especially if they've been doing this for a while,

Starting point is 00:40:59 they might be in the category of people who probably either A, could retire sooner, B, could enjoy themselves a little bit more along the way, or when they retire, C, spend more than they do. Because there's plenty of evidence that have found that there are people of middle to upper wealth in terms of retirement wealth, just underspending. And part of it, it could be because they're used to being savers. It's tough to make that transition from a saver to a spender. It could be they're worried about outliving their money, long-term care, medical expenses, things like that. But the vast majority of those folks, and I think that probably applies to a lot of people

Starting point is 00:41:38 listen to this podcast, probably could just relax a little bit in terms of their saving and spending. Yeah, it makes sense. That has been a big theme in the last couple of months is folks who have way overshot even early financial independence and can't seem to spend all of their money. I'm not sure if anyone else, anyone here can relate to that. So I think that's just, you know, that's just the other side of the coin here. We talked all about how do you optimize these tools to make it in that journey and get to those levels and the, you know, the catch-all or if, or the one of the big lever of Social Security in the journey, but a lot of BP money listeners, people listening to this podcast, maybe at risk at the other problem of accumulating

Starting point is 00:42:20 way too much or way more than they needed to achieve that goal, which is a good problem, but something that you should also factor in your decision making and plan around to a certain degree. Yeah, I would say if there's one thing that's changed with me since I really started getting into this 30 years ago now when I was a kid was, you know, then I was like, oh, I've got to save as much as I can. I need to invest as much as I can because I did have the investing bug. and it was delay, delay, delay, defer, defer, defer.

Starting point is 00:42:47 But now that I am 54, I've seen many people, friends, relatives, celebrities who had certain plans for their retirement, and they never happened, either because, A, they died prematurely, or something happened to their health or something happened to their spouse, right? And you had a guest recently on, right? Mark Trotman, Mark's Money Mind, I think, is what he ranked, right? He's 57, he's retired, and he talked about how his wife died two years ago. were cancer. Now, they lived a good life. They took lots of nice trips. And that's the smart thing to do if you're on track. And a lot of people aren't, and they're just going to have to suck it up and save more. But many people, I'm sure, listening to this podcast, probably

Starting point is 00:43:26 should relax and enjoy some of their money. Really think about what they want or do in retirement. And can they move it up before retirement? Because life and health are uncertain. And you don't know if you're going to make it to your 60s and 70s or what kind of shape you're going to be in when you get there. Robert, thank you so much for your time today. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you. And we will talk to you again very soon. And Robert, before we go, can you just tell everyone where they can find out more about you? To learn more about the Motley Fool and me, go to Fool.com. And then I am on the Motley Full Money podcast, which you will find on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever a great podcasts are given away for free. All right, Scott, that was Robert Brokamp. I want to already have him back on again because he was. just fantastic. What did you think? I don't even have to ask you what you thought, because I know you had a great time on the show because he was so wonderful. But really, what did you think? I thought he was fantastic. I think he's a wealth of knowledge and a true expert in a lot of these areas, specifically around stocks. And because he's so knowledgeable about stocks coming from

Starting point is 00:44:30 the Motley Fool and the various strategies there, I thought it was really interesting that that contributed to, well, first, I thought it was interesting that he's a big index fund guy and most of his wealth is an index funds, which I thought was awesome. I really agree with that, even though we're talking to someone from the Motley Fool. But second, I thought that that contributed to an even more advanced understanding than, you know, perhaps most of the folks in the personal finance space around retirement accounts, planning around these income strategies that you can use with Social Security, TIP, Treasury Inflation, Protected Securities, Inouities, and more. So really enjoyed it. What a wealth of knowledge. and what fantastic tools he was able to reference right there for folks to go and use all free.

Starting point is 00:45:15 What I loved most, Scott, was his comment about how even though he's incredibly knowledgeable, he still has 70% of his portfolio in index funds and 30%, and it's only 30% because he got lucky, not skilled, lucky with some of the individual stocks that he chose. only 30% is in individual stocks. So I think that is very important for people who, frankly, most people are less knowledgeable than he is because he is just so intelligent. For people who may be less knowledgeable about the stock market in general, to take note, he's in this every single day and he's still mostly in index funds.

Starting point is 00:46:10 All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this fantabulous episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Indy Jensen saying, shake your tail, feather, Heather. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash Bigger Pockets Money.

Starting point is 00:46:34 Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.

BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 466: The Retirement Planning Roadmap: 401(k)s, Real Estate, Bonds & More

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