BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 475: How to Get Rich Without Investing in Real Estate

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Starting point is 00:02:43 Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where Scott and I discuss five ways to get rich without investing in real estate. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my rich from many streams of income, co-host Scott Trench. Thanks, Mindy.

Starting point is 00:03:09 It's great to be here and I look forward to getting into a state of cash flow with you. I love it. There was a good one, Scott. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right, whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate, or make big time investments in assets outside of real estate,

Starting point is 00:03:40 we'll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams. It's time for the segment of our show called The Money Moment where we share a money hack, tip or trick to help you on your financial journey. And this one actually happens to be real estate related. Are you a DIY renovator? Rather than buying every tool you need, consider renting them. Renting a tool, especially for a single day's use, can be way cheaper than purchasing one, especially if it's a super specific tool that you really only need for one job.

Starting point is 00:04:12 You can rent tools at places like that. Home Depot and United Rentals. I've done this. I've rented a jackhammer, a sewer scoper, which was so gross, and even an industrial floor sander. All tools I don't want to own, but I needed for a specific job. Do you have a money tip for us? Email money moment at biggerpockets.com. Today we're going to talk about other ways to get rich. By other ways, I mean ways outside of real estate investing, which is obviously a clear passion of Mindy's and mine. We know we talk about real estate as a tool for wealth creation a lot, but there are plenty of other ways to build wealth that may be appealing to folks in different life situations or at different stages in their financial journey.

Starting point is 00:04:54 We're going to talk about five of them today, and I'm excited to get started. So do you want to kick it off, Mindy? Scott, we have talked about the four pillars of building wealth on this show many times. And I think you have a really great overview of that. Can you share what those four pillars are for our listeners? The four ways that most people can get wealthy are. spend less, earn more, invest, or create. There are some bonus applications like, you know, find the cash flow positive spouse, win the lottery, gambling, but we don't talk about those because, you know, for obvious reasons here. But look, it's those four levers, if you will, those four pillars. And you have to focus on some combination of them if you want to get wealthy.

Starting point is 00:05:37 And my opinion is that those levers have different variable significance at different points in your journey. Like when you're starting out as a median income earner, that's when spend less is really your high profile tool. As your career advances that earn more becomes more and more influential. And once you get past 500,000 to a million dollars in net worth, the investing piece begins to take on a bigger and bigger role. And depending on your risk appetite and how when you're ready to venture out, that create aspect can be a portion of folks' journeys. But I think for many, they'll find the most create to be most powerful once they're close to or kind of surpassing that financial freedom threshold. Yep, absolutely. Could not agree more. When you're trying to

Starting point is 00:06:20 decide how do I handle this? What do you have more of, time or money? When you're younger, you have more time than money. So treat your money as the precious resource that it is. When you're older, you typically have more money than time. You have more obligations on your time. You probably have children. You have a career. You have things around the house to do. You've got all these things that are pulling at your time.

Starting point is 00:06:49 It's easier to generate more income for a variety of reasons than it is to necessarily save more money. Yeah. And look, you know, I love that framework with, by the way, the, the, the, the, varying value of time, I think is how I'm going to, I'm going to frame that for now. I'm probably coming up with something better later, but that's, that's an awesome framework here. And I think, look, everybody likes, you know, we like to talk about spending less here, right, and the discipline behind that. But, you know, that's a, that's a discipline and a grind. And the same is true for earning more, right? That's a continuous application of effort

Starting point is 00:07:24 and self-improvement over a long period of time and taking the opportunity to to opportunistic chances that come there. Investing is our favorite subject, and that's what we're going to talk about. And with that, let's talk about the various ways to invest outside of real estate. Mindy, you want to kick us off? All right, Scott, when people think investing, they typically think of two schools of thought, real estate or stock market. Let's talk about the stock market. The stock market has produced so much wealth over the course of its history. What do you think of when you think of investing in the stock market, Scott? Well, I'm a big index fund investor, And by that, I mean, I like to invest in the U.S. economy as a whole, right?

Starting point is 00:08:03 And U.S. productivity has been increasing, I believe, at an accelerating rate throughout its history, right? New technologies help workers become more and more productive, on average as the years past, the Internet, maybe AI. All these things are really, really strong things that will, that, I think, increased productivity, again, in our economy. And a bet on the economy has produced really good wealth over history, right? I think we see over 10% long-term annualized return in the stock market. And I think most investors who are kind of passive index fund investors or stock market investors expect that kind of 7 to 10% long-term annualized return. And I personally agree with that.

Starting point is 00:08:45 And I think it's a very reasonable long-term assumption. Obviously individual companies do better and worse. But I think that, you know, what are you betting on when you're betting on the stock? market in its entirety in the form of an index fund, you're betting on the aggregate continued productivity of that sector. And in my case, I invest in U.S. large cap index funds. I'm betting on the continued productivity of that sector. I completely agree.

Starting point is 00:09:09 I am also investing in the index funds. I'm more tech-heavy because we live in a technologically advancing society. Like every day there's more technological advancements. And we, my husband is a tech guy. He does the majority of the individual stock picking, but he also wants to invest in the tech heavy indexes as opposed to the more broad indexes. But we do also have VTSAX. So our returns are currently a little bit higher than the 7 to 10%. Our risk is also outsized as well. So that's something to keep in mind. The more volatile the stock is, the more volatile the index is, the more risk you have, but also there's a greater chance for reward.

Starting point is 00:10:06 I think that there's so much to like about just stock market investing, index fund investing, because it's so passive, right? You can put in small amounts of money. You can put in a dollar a month if you want. You can put in $100. You can put in $1,000. You can put in $100,000. You can put in $100,000. There's mechanisms for that. It's highly liquid. You can sell it any time, although I believe you shouldn't. I believe you should invest for a very long period of time. The companies produce dividends. The dividend yield is around 2% on a S&P 500 or stock market index fund, kind of varies depending on the pricing there. And you can reinvest and compound your returns by reinvesting those dividends. And so there's just tons to like here. It's a flexible, easy option. I have been consistently investing in.

Starting point is 00:10:53 index funds in the stock market for the past 10 years, and I expect to consistently invest and continue that trend over the next 50 years of my life. And I've put more cash into stock market index funds than I have into real estate, although I have a similar amount of holdings in both of those, because I've added a little bit of value to real estate, for example. I will say that I also have been investing consistently a little bit longer. I've been investing consistently in the stock market for about 30 years. And it keeps going up into the right. If you, not always, there's little dips. There's little bumps in the road. Everybody remembers March of 2020 and, you know, 2008. And there are always little dips. But if you zoom out and

Starting point is 00:11:42 look at the overall stock market return, it goes up into the right. And what this means is, is if you follow people like Warren Buffett, whose favorite holding period is forever, that's his quote, and you continue to buy stocks that you, of companies that you love, or index funds, and I really encourage you to buy index funds unless you have a lot of time to spend researching the individual stocks. if you continue to put money into there and continue to hold it, you don't sell it when it's down, you know, freak out about that, you will continue to see 7 to 10% returns systematically over the course of your lifetime. Two quick things before we move on to the next principal, next area to invest outside of real estate.

Starting point is 00:12:42 one of those is, look, if you want a more extended argument to this effect about why this is a good strategy, my favorite book on the subject is The Simple Path to Wealth by J.L. Collins, he's been a guest on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast a few times. We're friends, no financial affiliation or anything like that. But go check it out. Really like the Simple Path to Wealth, super phenomenal book on this. And the second point I'll make here is, you know, thinking about, like, I just explain the bet you're making when you bet on an index fund, like the S&P 500, like something that tracks. the S&P 500 here in the United States is on the long-term future growth of the American economy, more or less, right? You're basically getting all the companies above a certain size in the

Starting point is 00:13:22 United States, you know, in any format when you're investing one of these index funds. And what's the inverse of that bet, right? To bet against that would say that America's going to decline. There's going to be less GDP growth. There's going to be less productivity per worker over a long period of time. Things are going to get terrible with that. And if you believe that, then you probably have a very different approach to investing than everybody else, right? Because that's not going to be good for real estate. That's not going to be good for small businesses or private businesses. It's not going to be really good for almost any asset class.

Starting point is 00:13:52 And you have a very different mentality about how you build your future. So it can be powerful to think about that as an example. The next one here, and that's investing in your retirement accounts and becoming a 401k millionaire. And this can be done in tandem with stock market investing, right? You can do, you can invest in retirement accounts and obviously invest in things like index funds. like we just, what we just talked about here. This can be a really powerful long-term strategy. You can defer taxes.

Starting point is 00:14:18 If you're a high-income earner, you can defer those taxes, take employer benefits and matches and those types of things and really compound a lot of wealth in a very tax-efficient way here. And there's also really interesting strategies for those of you looking to retire early to move that money from a pre-tax retirement account vehicle like a 401K and into something like a post-taxed Roth IRA. if you want to get advanced. So an advanced strategy, you can spend a few hours reading about this and then executed over a decade or two and have a really powerful, totally passive approach. So for the people who are listening who may not be familiar with the rules around a 401K,

Starting point is 00:14:56 let's talk contribution limits, Scott. Absolutely. What are some of those? In 2023, you are allowed to contribute 22,500. You personally, as the employee, are allowed to contribute up to 22,000, $500. And this is usually through your payroll and it comes out of your paycheck before your income is taxed. So this is a tax deferred contribution. You don't pay any tax going in. It grows. And when you withdraw, you pay taxes. If you withdraw outside of the rules, you will also pay penalties. In 2024, the contribution limit is $23,000 for the 401K. But again, this is the contribution limit for you. the employee, your employer can also contribute to your 401k. And there are other options available if you're self-employed and don't have any employees. You could contribute significantly more

Starting point is 00:15:55 because your employer can match your salary up to, or match your contributions up to 25% of your salary. Yeah. I mean, this can be a super powerful tool. If you take that $23,000 that you can invest in 2024, for example, and you get an 8% return by investing in things like stock market index funds, what we just talked about, you get to a million dollar balance in that 401k in under 20 years. Another investment vehicle for contributing to retirement is the IRA, the individual retirement account. Contribution limits in 2023 are $6,500 and in 2024 are $7,000. And it works in a similar way to the 401k. Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:16:39 If your employer doesn't offer one of these plans, you can go and create your own. They're super easy. You can do them through really any of the major brokerages. And a lot of them are very cheap and easy for you to access. So I think the best place to start, especially for folks that are in that lower income range, and lower income in the context of discussion is less than 100K, go start a Roth IRA. If you're thinking about retirement accounts, I think that's a really powerful wealth building tool.

Starting point is 00:17:03 And it's my favorite of the vehicles available to me. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future

Starting point is 00:17:34 planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple.

Starting point is 00:17:58 Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code. pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term

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Starting point is 00:20:35 And those who remained with their employers, only 42% of them got inflation beating raises. Back in episode 97, financial mechanic, we interviewed financial mechanic and she shared this. I started to apply to a bunch of different jobs and realized that for the software engineering industry, I could make a lot more than $65,000 a year. So I started applying. I applied to, I think, eight or nine different places. And each time I negotiated more and more and more. So I got a lot of practice with negotiation.

Starting point is 00:21:07 And I ended up doubling my salary when I switch jobs. Yeah, look, I think that understanding your market value is a really critical skill to develop over the course of your career. and part and parcel to switching jobs is, again, is assessing that. How much do people with my skill set and the value that I bring earn in the market? What is a reasonable band for that? How do I get to the next band, the next level from a skill set perspective in the eyes of employers? And how do I develop that as rapidly as possible? And there are many ways to do that.

Starting point is 00:21:45 There should be many opportunities to do that at your current employer. and I think a great answer is your current employer recognizes that, right? Because you can do a great, you know, we use this example a while back, but if you're an accountant and you do a great job, right? But the salary for accountants is $65,000, you can bring a tremendous amount of value to the organization, but there's somebody else that can do that same job, pretty much about the same with the same skill level as you. There may be a thousand people like that. But if you can get to that next level, and get to develop the skill set of a controller, for example, now all of a sudden your, your, market value might jump by 30, 40, 50, 100 percent on a go forward basis. And so I think it's always about having that in the back of your mind and understanding as my skill set develops, is my employer recognizing that and would other employers recognize it? And when there's a mismatch, you got to switch jobs. You got to be thinking about that and testing the market and thinking

Starting point is 00:22:44 about those things. The return, we spend all this time focusing on how to keep a budget and save, you know, an extra $500 or $1,000 a month. You can go make $1,000 a month with a 20-hour, you know, less than 20-hour exercise here to potentially get your resume built up and go through interview processes. That's an incredible return and you've got to be able to take it. What it boils down to is how happy are you at your current job? What opportunities does your current job offer for salary increases and what opportunities are there available in the market for salary increases if you go elsewhere? And I really liked, you know, David Green's mentality on this when we talked to him a few episodes ago. You know, the way that you increase your salary over time, even via these job hops,

Starting point is 00:23:34 is by taking on those extra responsibilities and looking for opportunities to add more and more value, right? Either they will be rewarded by your existing employer. or they will be rewarded in the sense that your skill set will develop, and you'll know what you're talking about in these interviews at a compounding rate over time when you're applying for the next job, and you have the skill set to actually execute them should you get that next job. So I think that that hustle mentality, while you're at work, you're on, you're going after every opportunity. You're constantly seeking ways to add value, and you're a jump and ship when those extra efforts are not being rewarded and finding those opportunities. I think it's a really powerful mechanism for success. And one last thing I'll point out here on the switch jobs piece is I believe that there's a relationship between your savings rate and your strength of your personal financial position and the opportunity for you to earn more income. And one example of that is, you know, maybe there's a job out there that pays $80,000 and has a $5,000 annual bonus at your skill set level.

Starting point is 00:24:34 But maybe there's another job out there that would pay 60 but offers 100% bonus. and it's a 50-50 shot for you to get that bonus, right? Well, that's a $90,000 a year average income, which is higher than the 85 that we just talked about. You get my drift here, maybe 60% chance you get the bonus. Well, look, a lot of people can't take that if they don't have savings or they spend everything that they earn. And I think the strength of your financial position evolving and the development

Starting point is 00:25:05 of your skill set will kind of have you see those opportunities with maybe a little bit lower base, but higher upside as opportunities and not risks. And so I think there's a really strong correlation between the ability of folks to earn those big extra dollars and get a chance of that variable compensation, which can really multiply your earnings if you have a strong financial foundation and are willing to be more flexible on the base salary. I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity for those folks. Yep. And one last thing I want to cover. I want to make sure that we hammer this point home. You have to be a great employee. in order to get a great raise. You have to be a great employee in order to get a great job.

Starting point is 00:25:46 Because if you can interview really well, but then you get there and you aren't all that awesome, you're not going to stick around. So it doesn't matter. You leave this job for a huge raise, and then they fire you because you're not working out because you're not doing anything. So the bottom line from all of this is you have to be a really great employee, go the extra mile, do the extra step. All right. Well, next up we have for number four here, investing in boring businesses. And this is one that has really been of interest to me over the last couple of years. What do you think about this, Mindy? You know, I would love to describe boring businesses. Yeah, a boring business. Like, if you were to go on buybizsell.com, for example, and scroll around there, you might see an HVAC company

Starting point is 00:26:37 for sale, a small website, a dry cleaners, some various franchising opportunities. You might see a plumbing business for sale or a small trucking business that ships various goods there. You might see a sanitation business or an asphalt paving business. And these businesses are awesome in a lot of ways or offer a lot of opportunity because there's 10,000 baby boomers who are retiring every single. single day and we'll continue to, and actually will accelerate for the next couple of years, many of those baby boomers own businesses, like what I just described, many of their kids

Starting point is 00:27:18 are not interested in taking over these businesses, and many of these businesses are cash cows, generating 300 to 750,000 or even a little bit more in profit on an annualized basis. That profit is called seller discretionary earnings or SDE, because often that profit is taken in the form of a combination of salary and then distribution. from the profits of the business or whatever with that. So that's a really good opportunity, and those businesses then sell for two or three times cash flow, right? If you're buying a business that generates, you know, $200,000 in income for $600,000 or

Starting point is 00:27:52 three times SDE, I mean, you can get a duplex for $600,000 in a lot of places. And that business, that duplex ain't going to produce a 33% cash on cash ROI for the owner. And so there's a really good, you know, fun opportunity there obviously comes with a lot more work, a lot more risk, lots of skill sets to develop. This will probably be a full-time job for at least six months to a year, maybe several years. But there's a huge opportunity if you can systemize these businesses. A lot of these businesses come with, they don't even come with a website, right? Because they've been owned by the same guy for 35 years as a referral network, right? And it doesn't really need the website or marketing.

Starting point is 00:28:31 So tons of opportunity in the space and lots of not enough. competition from buyers at this point, despite the rise and of interest we've seen from some members of the Bigger Pockets audience and some of the folks that are really kind of thought leaders in the space like Cody Sanchez. That's a really great point. There's not a lot of competition with buyers for these businesses. And I think the reason is it is a lot more work up front than a rental property is going to be because you get a tenant in, you get a house stabilized, or you get a property stabilized, then you're done. And you move forward.

Starting point is 00:29:12 In a rental property, there's still a lot of competition among buyers, even currently in this high interest rate environment that we find ourselves in. But yeah, these other businesses, these boring businesses, these are the businesses with no moat. And when you listen to Warren Buffett talk, he likes to buy businesses that have a big moat because he doesn't want a lot of the competition that comes with these smaller businesses. But these smaller businesses, if you have a great reputation and you can continue that great reputation, it is truly a cash cow.

Starting point is 00:29:51 But it is also a lot of upfront work. You have to continue with the building of the reputation. You might have to learn this whole industry or find somebody who knows the industry who can run it for you. Who is trustworthy? Hiring is going to be something that's going to be a concern for you. But the upside is so huge. We talked to Tim Delaney on episode 325, where he shared the story of buying a liquor store. They didn't even have a point of sales system. They had stickers on the top of the liquor bottles. And they closed one night, did inventory, and then the next day he owned it. And then he started working in this in this liquor store.

Starting point is 00:30:36 That was his job. Cody Sanchez was on episode 416 talking about how she buys these boring businesses and what she's looking for. And if you want to be able to generate a lot of income in a fairly short amount of time, the boring businesses can be a really great way to do it. Yeah. I think it's a fascinating. asset class. And look, there's another big, big issue here where, you know, the folks who get really excited about this are probably like in their 20s, you know, I'd imagine are very early in their career and don't have $200,000 with which to buy a business. And then there are the folks that are,

Starting point is 00:31:20 you know, there are probably other folks who are listening who are like, I make close to $150,000, $250,000 a year in household income. No way am I buying a dry cleaner, you know, or a liquor store or, you know, one of these HVAC companies. So you've got to really, you know, like that, you know, and that's just, I think that's just, that's a feature of this market and why it's such a good opportunity for certain folks who are able to, to, to, be some sort of bridge between those two types of people or, or there's some sort of hybrid there. If you can come up with that cash and you're willing to run this thing, you've a really good

Starting point is 00:31:55 opportunity. And by the way, you might need less cash than you think because you can use small business association loans and you can often get seller financing on. on some of these deals. This is the seller's baby, after all. Many of them own have owned it for decades and we're willing to hang around for a year or two and make sure that things are going well. Yeah, they want to smoothly transition their ownership to you. They want you to know how they were doing everything so that you continue the reputation that they worked so hard to build up. So there's a lot of opportunities for seller financing.

Starting point is 00:32:31 and seller mentorship and things like that, Scott, that's a great point. But again, if you have $250,000 in income, maybe this isn't the right way for you to get rich. Maybe your best bet is to increase your income through job hopping or going back to the very beginning and just investing in the stock market. Absolutely. I also want to throw franchise opportunities. into this bucket. I think that there's a big similarity between the two types of investments here. You're buying an existing business. The franchise opportunity, of course, is more similar to the,

Starting point is 00:33:13 uh, uh, or the franchise opportunity comes with a playbook that your, um, the franchise, the person selling you the franchise will likely produce, right? Like, here's where you get materials. Here's how you set up the, the menu, uh, if it's like a retail store or a restaurant or something like that or a Chick-fil-A. Like there's a playbook that's handed that you're trained on and then execute. The upside, you know, can be more limited, but the downside risk can be much, much more protected. And you'll probably have lots of peers who have very similar companies. So that might be a great way to get your foot, your foot in the door.

Starting point is 00:33:44 There are success stories and horror stories in franchising, but they can be a great opportunity for the right person in the right stage of life. On average, typical franchisees make about $80,000 per year, not considering tax and expenses and there are plenty opportunities to make that mostly passive or semi-passive opportunity over time. And yeah, if you're getting into franchises, do your research. Don't just jump in with both feet. And actually, that's for everything that we've discussed so far.

Starting point is 00:34:13 Do your research and make sure that the franchise expectations are what you are willing to do, what you are able to do. Scott, in a related note, starting a side hustle or starting your own. small business can generate huge wealth if you pick the right one. And starting a side hustle is a great way to test your theory without going all in and discovering that there's no product or no buyer for your product. So we had an interview a couple of weeks ago with Jackie Mitchell, who is testing out different ways to make $100 a day on her TikTok. series. And what a delightful interview that was. She's such a charming person, but she is trying

Starting point is 00:35:05 pretty much any way to make $100 in a day. And she's giving a recap of, oh, it took this long to make the $100. And yes, I would do it again. No, I wouldn't do it again. But there are a variety of ways to make income on the side. Small business owners salaries vary from $27,000 to $97,000 to $95,000. 4,000, depending on the industry and location. When you're starting a small business, a side hustle, or even joining a franchise, things to think about, things to keep in mind are looking at the location, the community needs, and the business viability. There's this.

Starting point is 00:35:43 I keep coming back to this. It's a misquote, but 90% of small businesses fail in the first two years. That's not completely accurate, but it's not completely inaccurate. it. Many, most small businesses fail because either there's no buyer for your product or there was no plan in place to actually succeed. So, you know, you really want to take your time and, and make a business plan, do the research to make sure there's a buyer for your product or service. And, you know, using social media to help grow your business can be a really fascinating and practically free way to grow.

Starting point is 00:36:24 Going back to the beginning of our conversation here, we talk about, you know, spend less, earn more, invest or create. And we've kind of diverged from investing here to we're earning more or we're creating. And I think that's something that people have to have in mind when they go into starting their own business or starting a side hustle. Are they earning active income just in the guise of owning their own business as a self-employed worker, basically? or are they working on a business, working in your business or on your business, right?

Starting point is 00:36:59 That is actually building an asset that will become more valuable and could be sold one day, for example, to somebody else and continue on producing income and value for employees, customers and shareholders in some kind of format. And so I'm all for any combination of the above, right? Absolutely love Jackie Mitchell's approach to just trying 100 different side hustles and 100 days, right? Try to earn $100 and 100 days in various different mechanisms. That's a great way to kind of challenge yourself to test a bunch of things and see how much income you can earn. But I think that you should always have in the back of your mind when you're doing these side hustles,

Starting point is 00:37:36 is there an opportunity for me to kind of transition this at some point in the future to a business asset where I'm working on a business and a system that can go on producing value in perpetuity? Or am I just earning more dollars with this? Because oftentimes, I think people fall into the trap of their side hustle not being as lucrative per hour as their day job in many cases. And that's just be in the back of your mind as you're thinking about this. Yes. Although, is your side hustle not as lucrative because you don't have enough time to devote to it? Or are you a CEO driving for Uber Eats?

Starting point is 00:38:11 Like those are two very different and pointed right at Scott scenarios where if you are making CEO level money, driving Uber Eats is not probably the best side hustle for you. But if you have created a side hustle that could grow into a dollar per hour that is really lucrative, if you could only get rid of your day job, that could be something that's worth pursuing or continuing on, even though the current dollar per hour might not be the best. Does that make sense, Scott? Absolutely. A great framework, I think if you're considering this, is to think about, hey, most business, I think it's nine out of ten businesses fail in the first, what, year or two. So that mentality to me has always said, start 10 businesses, right?

Starting point is 00:39:01 If nine out of ten businesses fail, you try 10. And if you come up with a 90-day plan to test a thesis really robustly and really work on it, you'll have four bets in a year that you've tested. You'll probably fail in all four of them. You get four bets next year. You'll probably fail on all four of them. And maybe you're ninth or tenth in the second. in the second first half of year three work out. And after five years, if you have two bets that

Starting point is 00:39:26 have paid off out of 20, that could be several thousand dollars a month in passive cash flow on top of whatever you've saved and accumulated in your stock market investing here. And so I think that's a really powerful framework. Five years is not that long to build two successful businesses. And you probably will hit a winner before you get to business number 10 because I bet you most nine out of ten of those failed businesses are people trying one idea ever, not iterating and learning from what they learned the last time on their third, fourth, or fifth idea. So I think there's a powerful opportunity here. As long as you're going into it, that mindset of my got low probability in the first one,

Starting point is 00:40:03 it's the process that will get me to where I want to get, where I want to go over the next couple of years. That's a great point, Scott. I like the way you think. Scott, I think we had five really great ways to get rich without investing in real estate. I enjoyed this episode. Thank you for your time today. Yeah, thank you. This is a good discussion, fun stuff. Let us know what you think. We're always hanging around the Bigger Pockets Money Facebook group at Facebook.com slash groups slash BP money. I love to hear your thoughts on additional ways to invest

Starting point is 00:40:33 outside of real estate, especially some of those more creative ways. There are hundreds of things we didn't talk about in the alternative space and speculation, Bitcoin, NFTs, horse racing. We actually heard about horse breeding from somebody. You know, there's a million different things. We'd love to hear about the creative ways that you have to invest outside of real estate and how that's turned out for you. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it.

Starting point is 00:40:57 That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Indy Jensen saying, thumbs up, silly pup. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash bigger pockets money. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaelin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.

BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 475: How to Get Rich Without Investing in Real Estate

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