BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 478: Need Funds for Your Business? How to Get FREE Money Through Business Grants

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

Are you sitting on an amazing business idea? Knowing how to get money to start a business is a critical first step to getting your concept off the ground. While there are all kinds of funding options, you may be able to get FREE moneywith a grant. That’s exactly what today’s guests did! Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money podcast! Today, we’re chatting with Cheryl Edmundson and Erin Jacobsen from Inclusive GameWerks—a fledgling business that has developed an inclusive pinball controller for people with disabilities. After building the first prototype for a close friend, they realized the device’s incredible potential. So, they went right to work—fine-tuning the design, structuring their business, and, of course, looking for ways to fund their new venture. Before long, they had landed a ten-thousand-dollar grant to get their operation up and running! If you’ve got an entrepreneurial spirit and a great business idea, this is an episode you won’t want to miss! Tune in as Cheryl and Erin show you how to launch a business alongside your nine-to-five job, find your lane in an established market, and get FREE money for your business! In This Episode We Cover How to get FREE money to start your new business How to find, apply, and get approved for a business grant Using grant money appropriately within a for-profit business The best ways to structure your new business Building a business without leaving your nine-to-five Driving your business forward through the power of networking And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group Network with Other Investors on The Path to FIRE Through the BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Join BiggerPockets for FREE Mindy on BiggerPockets Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Money Moment Building a Massively Profitable Business Around Your Passions Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-478   Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast where we interview Aaron and Cheryl from Inclusive GameWorks and talk about starting a wholehearted business using grant money. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Scott Trench. And with me, as always, but for the first time, is our senior producer of the Bigger Pockets Body podcast, Kaelin Bennett. Hi, everyone. Mindy was not feeling well today.

And Kailen is an expert on this particular business and always brings expertise. And we're so excited. Kalin and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less. less just for somebody else to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. That's right, Scott, whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big big time investments and assets like real estate, start your own business, get a grant, will help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch

yourself towards your dreams. Kalen, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast as a host today. Oh my gosh. It's crazy, Scott. I'm so excited to be here with you. It's definitely different coming on to host a show versus being, I guess, what is the Wizard of Oz? like the man behind the curtain, you know, I feel like we're pulling it off today. But we have such a good story. This is a story I've personally been following as a producer for a number of months where a group of our local Colorado business owners came together and they created an inclusive pinball controller so anyone can play pinball, which is just amazing. And during the show, we're going to go through

all the business aspects of it and how, you know, maybe you can start your own business using grant money. So I think it's good for any entrepreneur, any small business owner to listen to. Awesome. And remind us again how you know Aaron and Cheryl? Yeah. I know them. I just honestly, I met them just out and about in Colorado. So I met them through the brewery community.

A member of the group, Zach owns a brewery called Chain Reaction, which I've gone to many times. I met him through there. Cheryl and her husband, Dean, used to own an amazing brewery called Dead Hippie. And so I just met them out and about. they started telling me about their truly game-changing business. And eventually I just had to be like, you guys, this is too cool not to talk about. We got to have you on the show.

Awesome. So it sounds like you spent many happy hours with them. All right. Yep. Yep. Should we bring in Cheryl and Aaron? Yeah, let's do it. Today we're talking to Cheryl and Aaron about their business, inclusive gameworks,

which produces and designs inclusive pinball controllers. Cheryl and Aaron, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today. Excited to be here. Hi, Kaelin. Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be here. Awesome. Well, to start the show, Erin, could you tell us a little bit about what inclusive GameWorks is and what the business mission is? Sure, absolutely. So it's a group of six of us, a group of friends who came together with a very broad mission of just increasing inclusion for people with disabilities. Our specific start point was the controller that Kalin mentioned, that is an inclusive connection for people with disabilities to play pinball. But our goal is to go much further.

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And I'd love to hear about how did the story unfold? How did you decide to make inclusive game works? And what was the impetus to go ahead and design this controller? A bunch of us in this six-person group were pretty into pinball. Sounds nerdy, but it's really fun. So we have pinball games in our basements. We all get together. We play pinball.

One of our co-founders has muscular dystrophy, and he's in a motorized chair and can't play pinball in the traditional stand-up method. And he was always given us a hard time about pinball. Oh, what's so great about pinball? And we're like, oh, come on, it's really fun. Well, we got to the bottom of it. It's not fun. It wasn't fun for him.

He wasn't included. So we play pinball, and it would take us away, you know, the group away. and he was on the sidelines. So we decided to do something about it. Specifically, my husband woke up with an idea and said, I think we're going to figure this out. And with the brainchild of all six of us, and it took all six of us, we got to where the controller is now. That's amazing.

I've seen the controller and it's a truly revolutionary product. So Cheryl, to start the show, can you kind of give us an idea? Paint a picture for us. What does this controller look like and how does it make pinball more inclusive? Well, it started off sort of as a Frankenstein-looking project. It was basically Aaron's husband Joe bending plexiglass by hand and installing these huge buttons on it and setting it on our buddy Zach's lap

and deciding the width and depth and height and circumference of the buttons. I mean, everything was taken into consideration. And then ultimately, it became much more of a sort of a portable handheld, kind of a hexagon-shaped console controller. Much more sexy, much more edgy because we knew our buddy Zach was not going to be okay unless it was sexy and edgy and fit into the pinball community. And just so our audience knows it 100% is. It comes in multiple colors. It is a really big hexagon shape, but there's neon, there's sparkles. I even think I saw a rainbow one at one point.

And they have like custom N caps where if you have like a Jurassic Park pinball, you can have an N cap with like a Jurassic Park T-Rex on it. It's a really cool product. And how it looks is the controller is handheld by someone and there's a cable that goes straight into the machine. So you can be sitting, you can be standing. If someone has limited mobility, they can use one hand. So I think just to give our audience sort of the picture of what this looks like, it is a really slick design. So how much time and money and how did you go about creatively building this controller to get the first prototype or working version? The very first one, almost no money at all.

Time for sure. It was a labor of love. It was an investment of a lot of time with our group. There were multiple nights in the basement, trying different renditions, phoning friends, asking for advice, really just using our network to create the first one. I think it cost us less than, I'd say, $10 to make our first prototype. The first prototype had exposed electrical wire. You know, it wasn't great. Awesome.

And so you got it working, I assume. And what was Zach's reaction to this first prototype or the first working version? Gosh, hopefully I can get through this without tears. So it was a beautiful moment. So he came over when the electrician was here. We didn't want to hook it up until we were pretty confident it would work. And the electrician said, no, we're ready. Go for it.

And Zach played his first game of pinball with us. And it was pretty emotional for all of us in the group. It was, it's not often, Zach showed this with us, that it's not often that things come back to him in terms of abilities or new things that he can do. There's not a lot of new that happens in his world. So his wife and kids came back. We played pinball most of the night. It was really special.

And so when did you, you know, when did you decide, hey, we've got this invention that is doing a wonderful thing for your community and Zach as an individual? When did you decide to make it a business into a business opportunity? It was actually Zach's idea. You know, all of us got together to do this. And we said, hey, man, we made it for you. We just so that we could all play together and have fun. And he said, I think it can be more. And his wife, Alicia, pulled me aside and said, I think this can

really help people. This could be a really big deal. She said, so we've got to do something with it. And everybody looked at my husband and myself and said, you guys are going to run with this, right? I was like, oh, no, we're all going. Let's, let's go. Aaron and Cheryl, I think what I'll help our audience a little bit is, can you tell us about the key players, who the six of you are? how I kind of put it this way, how these six superpowers of pinball business acumen genius came together to to make this machine. So let's start, Aaron, you and your husband, Joe, like, can you explain a little bit about what you did for the business? I know that you guys are kind of like the sales front of it, and then go through the other four players that came together. Sure, Jill and myself both have

backgrounds in sales, corporate executive level sales, but we're also, I think all of us in the group, our entrepreneurs at heart. You know, we see a problem and we want to fix it. I think our minds are always open. So Joe and I have, we started small businesses before. So we knew kind of the foundation of it, you know, starting the business. Joe and I really just started, started the networking, started the sales process. You know, what does the product need to look like? How do we get it to market? Some social media stuff. But it's, it's tough when we talk about each individual player, because our roles overlap, I think, in any small business, the roles are hard to define in small business because you all have to all have to be involved. But so it's myself and

Joe, Dean and Cheryl. Dean is our technical guru for sure. He is the one who helps us with most of the electrical components. Cheryl keeps us functioning, keeps us organized, making sure that we are, you know, keeping everything documented and following the processes and procedures we need to, which is helpful in a group like ours. And then you have Zach and Alicia. Alicia is, is the heart. She is the one who is so, it's so easy to listen to her and to understand where she's coming from and how people with disabilities can, you know, what we can do to be more inclusive. So I would say she's really our heart. And then, of course, Zach, he always laughs because he's kind of our poster boy, if you will, but he's, he does so much. He does a lot of our social media. He is constantly

helping us collaborate on the design work. He is very heavily involved in the customization pieces that we work on. So hopefully that gives enough about each of us. Yeah. No, I think that that is a really special combination because you have sales, you have design, you have a true product tester. And you have people that like truly care about it. Your business has only been going for less than a year. Is that correct? The prototype was last summer, but our business really started the beginning of this year. Yeah. which is that's incredible acceleration. So I like want to really take a moment and let our audience kind of take that in for a minute. If you bring the right people together, you can really do anything if you

have the right pieces together. So I'd like to shift a little bit. How did you go from just this group of friends, maybe going to a brewery talking about this prototype to shifting it into a true business? Did you decide to have an LLC? Is this a nonprofit? When did this sort of come together? I think it was really, Erin was the instrumental one in researching options for the grant funding. And sort of at the same time, we knew that it was going to be a business idea. So now it's about the choreography of keeping the grant funding and all of the design and research and documentation separate from the business side of it. two separate things working at the same time. But what the grant funding allowed us to do was really build controllers,

get them in people's hands. Because like Aaron mentioned, we're carving out new territory. Like this is uncharted territory. And we really need the data from the people that we're impacting. We need the feedback from them to determine, okay, where do we go as the business? So for right now, we're really focused on the grant and the goals of the grant, which is including as many people as possible within Colorado to enjoy the game of pinball. I love that. Well, I would just love to learn more about this grant.

A grant is essentially a gift. There's no loan. You don't have to pay it back. How did you get it? How much is this grant? What are there stipulations or things you have to do in order to continue receiving it? Absolutely. So, I mean, I did a Google search on grants availability.

in Colorado for advancing efforts for people with disabilities. And there are grants, there are federal grants, there are state grants. This one in particular, it fit our bucket. You really do need to read the requirements for grants because this grant in particular had two components. One was really designed for making buildings more accessible or businesses who wanted to improve the ramps going into their business. So physical, you know, accessibility improvements.

The other one, which is the one we applied for, was really the goal is to improve the lives of people living with disabilities in Colorado. So that one fit our bill. Obviously, you wouldn't think that a grant would necessarily fund playing pinball. But the goal of that grant really is to improve the lives of Coloradoans. So we read the requirements, which were pretty minimal. We did have to have a board. You needed to have a formal infrastructure to apply, which we did. We created that very quickly.

And then it was just really answering their questions, being mindful of why they're asking what they're asking and then really being clear with your intent. So I think we as a group did a nice job of being very clear with exactly what our goal was. And we were told we made it to the finals. There was a final review committee. We had to provide some additional information. and then within a few weeks, we had a check from the state literally in the mail for $10,000. So it was pretty exciting. This is where things get a little interesting.

So anybody considering a grant, you've got to be careful with how you spend your money. So the way that we look at it is really we have two buckets of our business. We have the grant bucket and then we have, let's call it general business. And the grant money specifically needs to be used to help people's lives, to get Coloradoans out using our product playing pinball. So we've tried to be very mindful of that spend. So that has gone to research and development, our prototypes, getting feedback from the community, putting our devices, our controllers into different breweries, different places where people can come and play. So we've used our money primarily for that initially. And then now, you know, we're coming to the end

of the year and also the end of our grant money spend. And it's really about inventory. We want have enough inventory to get these controllers into as many hands as we can. That's really wonderful, Aaron. I think that that's an excellent strategy. I think a lot of our listeners who maybe want to start a small business are really wondering, if you get a grant, can you be a for-profit business long term? You certainly can. We get that question a lot for a nonprofit. And I would always recommend, like with any business, always talk to your accountant. And whoever your business advisor is, get some advice before you make those decisions. It's fairly easy to transition from a corporation or an LLC to transition to a nonprofit in the

future. It is much more difficult to go the other way around. So we started off as a corporation and we are absolutely eligible for these grants. We look at the profitability side. That's more of our retail side. That's more that like general business bucket I mentioned. The grant money were really focused on just getting out into the community. So most of the money for the grant, well, all of the money that we've spent from the grant, is really for that purpose.

The retail side is where we absolutely have the opportunity to be profitable. Those are our retail sales, you know, being involved in expos, things like that. Also our national. The grant was specific to Colorado. Obviously, this scope is global. which we didn't see that coming. But it is, you know, we're international now. So the business, the general business side is really where we're advancing that. So I would encourage, it really depends on what your organization is trying to accomplish. We were, we were people

first and profits is secondary, if you will, man, would be great. But our focus might be a little bit different. So I think it's important to define where those priorities are when you enter into like grant applications and things. That makes so much sense. You know, before we jump into how you spent a little bit more of the grant money, and that's in events and networking, we know that you went to several pinball expos. I'd like to take a step back and really talk about the design phase, because you went from this plexiglass wires everywhere sort of prototype to this really, what we talked about earlier, sleek controller. So Cheryl, I'd like to direct this next question to you. At what point did you find it necessary to bring on a designer or extra vendors to actually create this product?

Yeah, we knew pretty quickly. We knew that the big plexiglass laptop tray was not going to be a good solution long term. So that's when we leveraged our friend Tom, who is with 5,280 makers. and he 3D printed the initial design for us. And honestly, he nailed it pretty quickly right off the bat. He listened to what our concept was. I mean, we were literally showing him hand motions, like it should do this, and it should be able to be placed on a lap,

or it should be able to be positioned in such a way that, depending on someone's hand mobility limitations, that they could use it in multi-different positions. So he listened to all that, and the first design came out, and I think we all screamed with delight. So it was amazing. I think, Aaron, did you have some tears? Oh, there have been tears on every level during this whole process.

Lots of tears. Can you tell us a little bit about how much a controller costs and what you plan to sell it for, the unit economics, if you will? Sure. The unit itself, I'm going to have to give you an average. a lot that goes into it. It's on average around $375.75 less if we're using, you know, if it's within the grant scope, you know, then we're really just trying to cover costs, things like that. It can go a little bit more if there's customization. But on average, 375, and that is both the

external component and the internal harness that connects the electrical components inside the machine. Okay, awesome. And how much does it cost you to make one of these? Right now, it's probably a third of that. Yeah, and that doesn't include, I'm sure, like, you had to pay for design work. You had to pay for multiple additions and types, a test prototypes of your controller. So I'm sure, like, a fair portion of the grant money went to all those different types of tasks. Is that correct? Correct.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, that, that seems, those are very reasonable. Like, that's a very normal spread between, you know, a retail price and cost to produce for a product in that price range, I believe. That was our goal. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your

money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning, together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockes. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking.

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slash money free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent.com slash money free. And so how do you market the product and plan to sell it? How many do you think you can sell long term? That changes almost weekly for us, which is really great. It's very cool. So initially, we thought we'd be successful if we sold

I don't know, maybe 50 controllers over time. We've currently sold 22 in a matter of weeks. So our projections are having to shift. It truly, it's hard to explain our niche inside of this industry. The pinball industry is well established. I mean, people, there's a lot of people that play pinball. You wouldn't necessarily think it, but it is a very popular industry. And this is a completely new concept to anyone who's familiar with pinball. So you're asking to change gameplay. You're asking to consider, you know, a different way of playing. And it's just we're carving a new path. So it's really about the adoption of people in the pinball community as well as encouraging people with disabilities to come and try it. You know, it's a totally new concept. So there's a lot of education. I think that,

I mean, the sky is the limit. It's so cheesy, but I don't know that we have a real scope of it yet, Scott. 15% of Americans are registered as having some kind of a disability. So I think the market is, it's big. And you go internationally in similar statistics, not quite as high as the U.S., but similar statistics. I think if we can reach people, I think this will continue to grow. And I think we'll have different developments in different products.

A lot of, we're learning a lot as we go through this. Yeah, there's lots of ways to think about a market. And, you know, one way is, oh, you know, there's X percent of people play pinball and X percent of people with disabilities will therefore play pinball if we get access to this. But I think in your case, you kind of are making this accessible and this really exciting thing there. And so you could argue that there's a chance to make a really big market here by making this a pastime that a much higher percentage of people with disabilities, for example,

want to play or want to pursue, then maybe even the general public in there. And so there's kind of like this concept of what's the, what is, how do you think about the market one way? And then how do I think about making a market, which is potentially what you could do? You know, that continues to evolve our conversations as a business and as a group because, you know, we really are paving the way and it's exciting and it's, it's fun. It's just, you know, it's interesting to be the first. I think so too. And I, I, I've actually played with the controller. And I think the thing that's really special about it is it is truly accessible to anyone. Like if I'm tired and I've had a long day and I don't want to stand at a pinball machine, me as an able-body person can play this controller

and can do really well and get a high score. And I think that that's the really special thing about it is like, yes, it's inclusive, but anyone can use it. Kids can use it that are maybe having a hard time learning how to play pinball. So I think that that's really special. So I want to shift a little bit. And I'd love to talk about some marketing you guys have done. So I think a lot of other people start to experience how accessible this pinball controller was through many events you've done. Can you tell us a little bit about the expos you've gone to and how that has become a big tenant of your marketing process? I mean, really, it's a lot about getting out there, exposing different populations to the product, shaking hands, letting them see it in

action. And so I think we've done three expos so far, Aaron. So there's been Atlanta, Chicago, and then here locally. And we've had so many industry partners that have been kind to us and allowed us to share booth space, you know, no charge, you know, things like that. So you start to develop those relationships in the industry, too, that previously would not have been there. It's been an amazing journey. And I hear that someone really interested. and exciting in the industry played the controller. Can you tell us a little bit about that development? So Stern Pinball is one of the largest manufacturers of pinball machines worldwide. The majority of games that we play are made by Stern. So we're at the Pinball Expo in Chicago and, you know,

start to hear this like, everybody's rustling around us, like, oh gosh, we're like, what's happening? We don't know. And the founder of Stern Pinball, Gary Stern, was wandering around and introducing himself and saying hi to friends in the industry and things. And he stopped by and checked out our controller and just had amazingly positive feedback for us. Like, of course we should be doing this. What way to go? You guys are amazing. We're all fan-girling.

Oh, my gosh, it's Gary Stern. But it was really cool to see someone who was such a pioneer in pinball and continues to drive pinball, have an interest in, you know, our little controller as we were seeing it then. Just really good feedback again, like Cheryl said, from everyone in the community. We had designers, we had developers all coming and talking to us and checking out the product and congratulating our design work and, you know, the engineering behind it. So it was a lot of validation, but also a lot of really good exposure to the folks that basically are validating our path forward, which is great. Yeah, I think that that's truly incredible. And the other big thing that came out of your Chicago Pinball Expo is

Zach and Joe, who just to remind our audience as Aaron's husband, actually got to speak to a room full of people about the controller, which is pretty amazing. I'd like to tee up a clip here with Zach, who as a reminder to our audience is a gentleman with disability, who this controller was designed for. And this is him speaking at the Chicago Pinball Expo about his experience, designing this controller, learning this controller, and what it's given back to him. So we're going to go ahead and play that for you. What this controller is kind of done is give something back to me. It's given things back to people that we've left that have one hand or of better than

acts that have back or for hard time seeing or standing. It's giving back. I get to sit with my kids now. I can't throw the ball, or maybe I can't go for that long cut, but we've got able to bond, and I've been able to house that current moment doing things with flexes.

And day nights with my wife as well, just getting to play a couple of games, and it might seem like a silly game, but that's a part of my life that was giving that. And I think in many areas, that could be a life-saving thing. And I think, like also,

even touched on, the social involvement of encouraging people with disabilities to get out into the community and grow up that hurt key in the difference. And checking out, ADA is just a lot. It gets me under the building, right? Inclusivity is the desire.

were tapping, but what is more than just giving me into that table with the food to eat? What helps me and other people with disabilities or whatever they're going through? What types of them feel when they sit? And I think that is the biggest key to what we're doing is that everyone should have that choice to play. So hearing Zach speak, that was really passionate and powerful. What impact did it have at the conference? Was the room filled with tears?

Were people in awe of the product? What happened? It was inspiring. What I've learned through this whole process is if we talk about it, the conversations that come up are amazing. You know, just asking the question, do you have someone in your lives who has a disability that might benefit from a controller and coming out and to play pinball with us? It's amazing the mind share, but also the conversations that come from it.

So, you know, a gentleman in the room was from a university in England, and he was talking about, well, how could we include additional like robotics and things like that? And just it's very cool to see that everybody wants to come together to help boost this idea. It's not maybe your traditional business model where you really want to keep things close because you don't want someone to run with your idea. It really has just been very, just a lot of camaraderie and a lot of collaboration. And I feel like the room was that when we were at the Expo as well. What is, what's next for you guys here? And also I want to chime in with, do you have, have you patented this technology? Is this something that, how are you thinking about the future?

Are there more inventions coming down the road? How are you going to solidify the business today? And what's up in the docket for 2024? We are patent pending. That was one of our initiatives that we did early on this year. Also one of the lessons learned from the grant, the grant money could not be spent on any legal fees. So make sure you do the research and find out what grant money can be spent on or what the restrictions are. So that was on us as a group to pay for the patent pending.

We reached out to a few different attorneys. We got some advice called friends, you know, used all our phone of friends that we have. and just got some advice that we probably don't need to hire an attorney for $25,000 to go full patent at this point. We registered on legal Zoom. You know, we really are grassroots this, and it's going well. And we went through the legal Zoom process, very easy. And they send you a packet. You do the research, you know, fill out all your answers, send it back to them, and they have someone review it and see if there's any other products that compete with yours.

and we received our patent pending within a few months of submitting our initial application for patent. That's amazing. Well, congrats. I do have one more question for both of you. You have this amazing patent pending. You've done all these incredible events. You've gone from nothing to something in less in a year, which is pretty incredible for a small business. I really want to know what impact has us had on the community in Colorado. Are folks with disabilities hitting high scores now? Are you seeing more community in bars. What does this look like for you now? It's pretty amazing. Shortly after our prep call, Kalen, I got a text from Zach that he had hit a personal best high score, grand champion score on the game he was playing. I mean, that sounds nerdy and silly

maybe to the average person, but this is an accomplishment that would have previously been impossible six months ago for him. And now he's included in that community in this way. And we've had countless stories from all around the world, people that are impacted by the controller, who can now be included at the local brewery or in their own home and socialized with friends and family in a way they couldn't previously do. So just a number of stories like that, but also the awareness, raising that awareness. And the accessibility is one issue, but the inclusivity has been amazing too.

Our industry partners from all over have been incredible. In fact, one of them actually changed their interface to align with the way that ours hooks up to the machine. I mean, it's just unbelievable how open. people's hearts have been. You asked earlier about plans for 2024 in the future. What does it look like? I think our goals for the future are just to continue with what we're doing. The growth that we've seen, the expansion of interest in our products just continues to grow. Where I really see us being strong is in customization. We've developed our initial controller with one design in mind. And we designed it to

try to fit as, you know, fit as many disabilities as we could to make, you know, the controller something that rolls so people can hold it different ways. But there's so much more. We are constantly getting requests. So this is, this is my disability. This is how I would engage with the controller. Can we do that? And so far, our answer has been, let's find out. And with customization, I know that a lot of times in business, customization can get a little scary. I mean, how many skews are we going to have? how much production are we going to have. But there's also a lot of advancements that can come when you offer that customization. Our scope will be wider.

And we'll charge accordingly, the design time that it takes, the additional manufacturing of components are more expensive. That same profitability model will scale on any type of project that we work on in the future. So I think continuing down with the customization road will be really critical for us. And then I think as people keep talking about it, I mean, it just amazes me the emails that we keep getting of, hi, we saw you on, you know, at this tournament or we saw this, you know, at this expo or we saw you on Facebook. People were coming up to Zach and Joe, who are primarily the faces on Facebook at the Expo in Chicago saying, I just really wanted to meet you. I've been watching you on Facebook.

We're like, really? This is so cool. So I think we'll continue with that scope as well as, again, you know, keeping open to other ideas that come up. We're a pretty entrepreneurial-spirited group, so I think we'll keep coming up with stuff. And this is going to be your first holiday season while the product's live, right? Yes. I think that'll be exciting. This is potentially a wonderful gift to get somebody for the holidays.

So I'd be interested to see if that is a tailwind that you're already exceeding. It might even accelerate the next couple of months. We hope so. Holiday is all about family and coming together. And what better way if you're into pinball and now the whole family can play with you. So I think it aligns with the goals of the holidays for sure. Oh, I love it. My heart is so full with this idea.

Congratulations on this amazing business. And I know Scott and I are anxious to see the future and how big it's going to get. So for our audience, where can people find you? Is there an Instagram? Is there a website if they want to purchase a controller or just go and support you? You bet. It's inclusive GameWorks. And we are on Facebook, Instagram.

We have a website. Well, everyone, go check out Inclusive GameWorks. Aaron and Cheryl, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We were thrilled to talk to you. Thank you for having us. Thanks so much. All right, that was Cheryl and Aaron with Inclusive GameWorks. Caitlin, what did you think?

Oh, my gosh. Well, I already kind of had the inside scoop on this story, so I knew it was going to be really great. But just rehearing all of it again, learning about how six incredible business owners came together, design something that's going to change the industry. in a matter of a year is just, it's so inspiring. I think it really kind of lights a fire under any person with an idea. Like, there's no excuse. Just anyone can do this.

Yeah, I think, I think, you know, hopefully your mind is turning over the things you like to do and thinking about ways to help make them more accessible or more popular or more enjoyable to other folks. And that can come with a good cause. Maybe, you know, like, crazy ideas are jumping into my head, right? Like, is there an invention that could make bowling more accessible to folks with disabilities, right? Like, or whatever it is that you like, I'm not a big bowler, but, you know, I was thinking like, oh, there's probably a way to do the similar cases.

And what that does is that allows you to enjoy your favorite pastime, make accessible with more people, probably get grant money if you're making it accessible to folks and then have a crack at a potential business that could just be fun. So I think, I hope people's wheels got turning because this is, this is really inspiring. It is. And I think the thing that I think sometimes young business owners maybe get into the mindset of like what's going to make me the most money fast. But I think what is really powerful longevity wise in a business is moving in a business that you're really passionate about. And you can definitely hear that from Aaron and Cheryl. They just care so much about that. And so they built a world around it. And I think that that's a really inspiring, aspirational principled

for anyone on bigger pocket of money to really sit and think about. Absolutely. All right, Scott, before we get out of here, you're really good at dad jokes. So I brought you a dad joke because I couldn't help myself today. Okay. All right. What do pinball and seals have in common? They're both, they both bounce, double bounce.

They both have flippers. Awesome. That's a double bonus joke for our pinball. episode here today. Yeah, you always bring the best dad jokes. So like I had to really, I had to think about this one ahead of the show to compete on this outro. My pinball jokes today were terrible. So you get the high score. Really appreciate it. Oh. And yeah, thank you for joining us today. All right. Well, I am Kaylin Hope Bennett. He is Scott Trench saying, go play pinball. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're

looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash bigger pockets money. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kalyn Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.