BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 497: Persuasion Secrets and Predatory Practices Businesses Use on YOU

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

By the time you finish this episode, you’ll be ten thousand dollars richer. Just read this testimonial from a recent BiggerPockets Money listener, “I’m so rich now, I have no idea what to spend all my money on. And all it took was listening to this episode.” But act fast because, in five minutes, this episode WON’T be available anymore. None of the above is true. But you probably caught on to a few of the psychological tricks many marketers use to push you into purchasing, even when you’re not ready to. And with so much mentoring, online course-selling, guru-ing, and get-rich-quick promising, it’s hard NOT to fall into these traps. How do you know who actually wants to help you and who’s just waiting to grab onto your wallet? Tarzan Kay has spent years using persuasion-first business tactics to prompt potential customers into purchasing, building a seven-figure income stream in the process. It wasn’t until she realized that these tactics did more harm than help that she decided to burn down the business she had built. Now, she’s sharing all the persuasion secrets marketers are using on YOU and teaching you how to build a business the better way. In This Episode We Cover The “principles of persuasion” businesses use to trick you into buying Common predatory practices online gurus and mentors commonly use HUGE red flags to watch out for before you buy ANY online course How to ensure your business NEVER tricks potential customers into buying  Vetting your own clients and customers BEFORE they have the chance to pay you And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group Network with Other Investors on The Path to FIRE Through the BiggerPockets Forums Finance Review Guest Onboarding Join BiggerPockets for FREE Mindy on BiggerPockets Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Apply to Be a Guest on The Money Show Podcast Talent Search! Money Moment Warning: Why You Shouldn’t Buy What the Gurus Are Selling Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-497   Interested in learning more about today's sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm Kailen Bennett. And as a reminder, I am the senior producer at Bigger Pockets. Today, I am with my dear friend and CFP extraordinaire, Kyle Mast. Hey, Kailen. It's good to be here. It's fun to have the producer in the show. And we're just filling in from Mindy and Scott today. They're probably off having fun doing something really cool and we're stuck behind a computer screen. Yeah, I know probably living their best fire life of drinking Starbucks and eating avocado toast. So, you know. Definitely, with everything bagel seasoning on it for sure. Exactly.

Kyle and I are here to make financial independence less scary. Last, just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting. So today we're talking to this amazing woman named Tarzan Kay. She was a wildly successful copywriter who actually built a seven-figure business through writing emails and using sometimes predatory marketing tactics to have a wider audience. Yeah. So from this conversation, she does a really good job of helping us understand how we can

maybe detect some language that is being used to manipulate or pressure you into buying the products that are coming online these days and that you maybe can't afford or just don't need. So this is helpful for just about anyone who feels like they can't always vet something really well and feel pressured to buy something, this would be a really good listen for you if you're looking for an online course or some sort of coaching program. She does a really good job of giving kind of a behind the scenes look at that. Absolutely. So the things you're going to hear today, you're going to hear about Tarzan's story, about how she built this business, how she changed her business practices to be more ethically conscious, I should say positively conscious of the

consumer on the other end and the red flags you need to look out for so you don't get swindled out of some money that you don't need to spend on a service you don't need. The purpose of this show today is we're here to equip you with the knowledge of what to look for for red flags within this industry if you're looking to purchase an education course or if you're interested in one or if you want to become an educator or a marketer and how to do this positively without I guess selling out. Without further ado, let's bring in Tarzan K. Azanne Kay, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. We're so excited to have you today. Thanks. Thanks for having me. You know, we know that just a few years ago, you had this really massively successful email marketing and

copywriting business that made you, you know, well over seven figures. And I think a lot of our audience may be kind of confused on how copyrighting works and what are the nuances of marketing, why it's important. So can you just explain what copyrighting is and what your business specifically focused on? Okay, so the main thing that I do right now is email. And I teach people how to write better email copy. So all of the emails that you get from a company, that's email copy and that's my specialty. But copy is really any words that you use to talk about your business. So it could be your website. It could be, um, there is a bit of a distinction between content and copy. Like content is more blogs. That's like social media. Copy is really specific to, um, you know, it's really specific to the problem that you.

you solve. And the language that we use in our copy is really important. It's language that we come back to again and again. And like there's certain words, you know, like, just an obvious piece of copies, like some things like, just do it. We, that's like one of the probably greatest pieces of copy of all time, like the words that you associate with a brand. That's like really obvious copy, the stuff on billboards, but it's also everywhere. And we're writing it every day. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's such a valuable skill for business owners. I think I'm the queen of like my promotions tab or if I get too many emails, I'm like the queen of like unsubscribe. Let me clear out this tab. So as a business owner and as

someone that is looking at marketing, this is a tool that our audience really needs to think about and look at. Right. Yes. Another thing is I am very focused on consent based email marketing, which is not the way that everybody does email marketing. And I have like very clear consent practices. in my email, just as an example of that, like when I'm in a promotional period for my program email stars, like I'm sending quite a lot of emails. The first thing I will do before I send any email is say, do you want this, like, do you want me to turn this off for you? Click this link and I won't send it to you. By default, I'll send it to most people on my email list, but they always have the option to turn it off every time I send them a promotion. At the very top, it's like highlighted

and bright yellow. Like, hey, do you want to, like, turn this off and make it go away? You can just, like, click this link and this promo will stop immediately. And even when people join my email list, like, there is an online business with course-based businesses and even a lot of service providers, you know, we have this culture of offering a freebie in order to get on the email, to get subscribers. So it could be like a masterclass, a free PDF, whatever it is. I have a tick box for every single one of my forms. It's not perfect. I might have missed one on one page somewhere,

but anytime you download something from me, you have the option to just get the thing and see you later. And I actually want people consenting and saying, yes, I want your emails. Like that's really important to me. I don't think just giving a freebie is really enough to say that, like to qualify as consent. I just want to make sure that consent is built in all the time, something that I'm always thinking

about because we have all been in that situation in our inboxes where we're like, what the hell? I didn't, like, I didn't want this. Like, who is this person again? Like, I think I signed up for something, but like not this. So I really, my mission, like, I'm out there saying like, hey, you can do email in a way that feels good to you and feels, good to your subscribers too. Like, you don't have to shut down that part of yourself that's like, e-mail. Like, I don't want to be that person. Like, okay, that's valid. Like, why do you feel that way? And what could you do to make sure that your subscribers aren't getting that feeling when they get your emails? All right. Let's take a quick break. We've heard about the positive practices Tarzan is currently using

in her business. After we get back, we'll dig a little bit deeper into some of the more predatory practices that are used in this type of marketing. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life

easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pock. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place, so every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off

at monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing, get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know exist it. It saves

time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, found makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D- Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen

to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leaner Stronger for Fitness, The Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible. Welcome back to the show. Today we're talking to Tarzan K about how to consciously market your

online course and business. Some of the things that you just said, I think there's a journey behind them of how you got to where you're treating your audience in the nice way that you are. Let's step back a little bit and then we'll come back to why you do that. It kind of give people a little bit of a context. You built a substantial business before making some adjustments. Can you give us just a little bit of some detail of what the, what the business looked like that you built? You know, you mentioned like courses, but, you know, and it sounds like you built it really fast. You know, give us just a quick overview of how that business was built, what it looked like. Well, one thing that I know about capitalism,

having thought a lot about it in the last eight years, is like exploitation and oppression happens when you're trying to do things really, really fast. And when I look back, and on the growth of my business, like, it was so fast. And there was just like no time to think about anything other than like getting to the next goal and getting the next promotion out. So I started my business eight years ago. And I was like fully 100% bought in to like online courses for everyone. Everyone's an expert. You should start an online course. This is like the path to riches to wealth to like a lifestyle business. And, and I, I started buying courses really early on, and I started writing copy for people who were launching

courses. And I immediately saw that like copywriting as a skill for people who sell courses is essential. Like if you can't do that, you will never sell courses. You either have to learn how to do it or you have to hire someone who does. And I saw that it was a rare skill and I was like, okay, I could, I could actually like do this myself. why am I writing for other people's courses? I could make way more money selling my own. Never mind that like I actually didn't really have a lot of industry experience. Like I would say I created my first course like probably a year and a half in. And I knew things that other people didn't know. Was I like in a place where I could like call myself an expert? I don't know. But I was like, everybody's an expert. That's what everybody's saying. Like you're an expert.

As long as you're 10 steps ahead of someone else, build your thing. And I learned a system of marketing that I didn't really question. Like, I learned about persuasion. And nobody told me, okay, so let's back up. So Robert Childini wrote this famous book, and he wrote about these, it's called influence. He wrote about the principles of persuasion, which are reciprocity. That's like an example of my ex-husband used to use. He worked in sales.

And he used to famously say he would be working on like a, like a $7,000 sale. And in the middle of it, he would say to his customer, like, would you like a bottle of water? And immediately reciprocity is engaged. So it's like you give something and people want to give back. A lot of coaches use reciprocity on sales calls. Like they will give, give, give a lot on the sales call. And then immediately the person feels like they have to buy something. That's reciprocity. And then we have obvious things like scarcity, like three spots left, authority, like, which for me was just like look how beautiful I am on social media. Like don't I look trustworthy?

Commitment and consistency. Consistency is like basically that's why like a tripwire would work. If you've ever downloaded a free thing or let's say you bought something and then there's like an upsell that's like a little something extra. In the online course business, it's often like I bought this person's $2,000 course. So now I should probably continue on and buy their $10,000 program because I already invested in them, so I better keep working with them. Like, we want to, it's like, it has to do a sunk cost fallacy. It's like, we want to make a decision that's consistent with the previous decision,

even if it's not working, because it affirms that maybe it will. So then there's liking and then there's social proof, which is like testimonials, et cetera, things like that. I learn about these six principles of persuasion. Great. I'm using all of them in my business. Like everywhere in my sales funnels. I have fast action bonuses. I'm talking about how much money I make because that's authority building. I have like all the layers of, um, all the layers of persuasion and people are buying my stuff. And it's like going so fast. I don't even know what to do with all the money that I'm making. I got to like about, I think it was four years into my business. And I started to notice that like something felt a little bit off. Um, and one thing I noticed was like, I couldn't

understand why some people were getting results in their business and others weren't. And I started to look at why some marketing feels predatory. And through all of my years of teaching, like, I had so many people came to me and they just like weren't willing to do it the way that I was doing it. They just like felt weird about it. And I would tell those people what other. people were telling those people, which was that they had a mindset problem. Like, oh, you're scared to sell. Like, you just have to like work on your mindset so you can like get out there and make your pitch. But like actually what I realized was like, no, those people were really tuned into something. Just very quickly, just to clarify for our audience, what were you exactly selling at this point in time?

Was this mainly your course that people were were purchasing and then not finding that same amount of success? Yeah. So I had, I've sold my program email. stars. It's one of the first programs I ever made and I still sell it today. And I've sold it in all different ways. Like the first time I sold it, it was like $6,000 program. I tried several different price points. In its heyday, it still sells for about $1,500. But in its heyday, it sold for $1,500 and I would have like several hundred students at once. And I do want to say like it's a great program. I'm totally proud of that program. It's more about the way that I was selling. and also the way that I was teaching people to sell in the program.

So, okay, let's see. Where are we in the story? Oh, learning about marketing. I took this program with Kelly Deals called, it was called feminist copywriting. Now it's called Copywriting for Culture Makers. And Kelly had this program inside the program that was about Robert Sheldini's principles of persuasion.

And by the way, I never read the book. I just learned all the lessons and taught all the lessons. I actually never read Childini's book. But I did after Kelly told me that actually, like, Robert Childini wasn't trying to write the handbook of sales for people on the internet. He was actually writing that book for consumers so they would know when they were being preyed upon. And I couldn't believe it.

I was like, wow, I just never considered that. How did this happen? that we as marketers have taken Childini's principles of persuasion, which were principles of how to not get conned, and turned them into how to persuade people to buy anything. And those principles, like, they freaking were. There were years where I was like, I could sell anyone anything. Like, I just know exactly what to say. I know exactly what to show them in order that they will buy. And I had that. that power and I was absolutely like not conscious of how that power could be abused because it is being abused all over the freaking internet. And one thing that has really changed, the coaching industry and a lot of online selling has sort of tapped into this issue that people don't want to be predatory, that they feel preyed upon. And now we're seeing a lot of new language. that's like coaches saying they're trauma informed or other coaches saying business coaches saying

that they teach ethical selling. Like there's now become like a whole new, all this new language that's like so confusing. You're going to have to beat me there. It's so confusing for people because really the sales, like it's not different. It's just a new package. And it's like, here's an example of this. So people will say in their marketing, you know, this is not a get rich quick scheme. This is not for people who don't want to work hard.

Like, this really is work and it takes time. And then immediately under that, there will be a testimonial from someone that says, this program transformed my life and nothing has ever worked like it and I made $45,000 in my last launch. Or, you know, it could be weight loss. And I needed no money. Yeah. Or it could be weight loss. It could be like whatever it is, like these transformational promises, like social proof is really powerful. And it's one way that people will counterbalance their quote unquote ethical messaging to like not make the promise, but actually sneak the promise in under there. So I feel like a bit of like a part of, pariah in the industry because like I'm just shouting all over the place about like all of this

predatory stuff that's happening on the internet. And I also want to say like I'm in it too. Like I also am constantly asking myself in my promotions. Like is this okay? Is it okay to share this person's story? Like if I look at this client testimonial that I'm using combined with like this fast action bonus that I'm offering like is this okay? We're going to take a quick. break, but stay with us. After this, we're going to be discussing questions that you should ask yourself as a consumer before you purchase an online course or things that you should ask yourself as a business person putting out an online course. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income,

spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop.

Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets.

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice. on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts.

The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest registered agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest Today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs

launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides

that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data. And all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent.com slash money-free. Marvel Television's Wonder Man, an eight-episode series, now streaming on Disney Plus. A superhero remake.

Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director. Action! Simon Williams, audition for Wonder Man. I'm going to need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers. I'll never work again if anyone found out. My lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder Man.

All eight episodes now streaming. Only on Disney Plus. Whether it's with your besties or date night, get to all the hottest concerts with Go Transit. connects to all the biggest entertainment venues and makes it affordable with special e-ticket fares. A weekend pass offers unlimited travel across the network on any weekend day or holiday for just $10. A weekday group pass offers the same weekday travel flexibility from $30 for two people up to $60 for $5. So no matter what day of the week, Go's got you covered. Find out more at gootransit.com

slash tickets. I think the things that you're bringing up are really important. And there are things that Kyle and I actually see on the real estate and finance industry all the time. I think that we see buy this $10,000 course. It's okay. You can use a credit card, but you don't have to put any other money down or into it and you're going to make $100,000 this year. And I think that that's a big thing our audience has had quite a reaction to negatively or positively because I think that mentorship is super valuable. I think education is super important. But I think the big issue we're honing in on is potential education or predatory practices at the cost of someone's financial well-being, or maybe in these other businesses we're talking about not getting enough value out of them

or not even taking to account that people may not even be ready for this content or they may not even need it due to, but we're putting this pressure on the time and the scarcity mindset, which I think kind of gets people into this primitive behavior. Like, I have to just buy this because everyone else is buying it and we got to move forward. And I think that that's really the bigger, you know, more ethical issue that we're all putting our finger on, which is like, how do I get education? How do I, how do I balance these things? How do I get education? Well, not feeling scammed through it.

You know, the real estate industry is one of the original guru industries. You know, before the internet happened, you would get a postcard in the mail of there is a meeting at the best Western down the road. And it's free this. And at the back of the room, if you race back there, you know, real estate. is we are there. Like, we are the original OG before email. And I would also say, I'm my background, I don't know if you know this, Tarzan. I'm a CFP. I had a financial planning firm. And our industry is super heavy sales on the front end training of a lot of people. And a lot of people will jump in that way and they are taught or they go through courses that

teach them how to sell product to people. But what we run into in any industry is that you end up selling product to people that it doesn't work for. And it may work short term, but you're not getting the good feedback, the good feelings for yourself also, but you're not really adding value in the long term. And it sounds like from your experience, you've gone through that. Like you have gone through the process of figuring out, okay, I was offering something that was working for some people, but I was so good at selling it to other people and it wasn't working for them. And then you made, you made like some major moves in your business. So if you could touch on like, what did you do to correct course of where you're going?

And along with that, try to help people that might be building a business, might be trying to market, might be trying to actually help people, but also put food on the table. How do you build something from the get-go to not have to rebuild it later? When my business was at its most profitable and I had, you know, the largest, like, team and infrastructure, the most students, all those things. Like, I actually didn't really like what I was doing. I felt like I was really boxed in to my business. And also, I was going through a divorce.

And I was like, oh, my God, this is just way too much for me right now. And so it was about 18 months ago. I'm going to say, I guess maybe 18 months ago. And so. now my business is more scaled and now, you know, my, also the business, like, you know, we have a, we need to make $50,000 a month to keep the wheels turning. Like, that's just it. So, um, we come off a promotion that like didn't do very well and it didn't do as well as we wanted or needed it to, which happens all the time. No big deal. Uh, but still, there's a lot of livelihoods at

stake. And I got on a call with my number one, Sandra Booker. She's now in the role of fractional COO. She's still with me. So I get on a call with Sandra and we decide that we will launch the next month a mastermind. And, you know, we'll take like 10 people. We'll make like 100 grand. We'll be okay for a while. And I got off of that call with Sandra and I was like, oh my God, I don't. I actually think I can do this. Like, I was in such a low moment in my life. Like, I had just finished negotiating a mediation agreement with my ex-husband who was a stay-at-home parent. Like, I had been carrying two, I almost want to cry thinking about it. It was so hard. Like, I was, had been carrying two households for almost a year. And this whole team, like, they're all looking to

me for direction. And I got off the phone and I was like, I can't lead. Like, a mastermind is a major. your undertaking. Like, you need to give people time. You need to be present. Like, you need to, like, you need to be their cheerleader when they think they're going to fail. Like, I'm, like, flailing over here. I need someone to support me. Not only content development. Like, I, I want to just stress that to our audience as, like, what I do for a living is I make content. And a month is the shortest time frame ever for that vast amount of content that Tarzan would need to turn out. I mean, I think a mastermind, a boot camp, that's a several months, if not a six month long process that you and your team should be putting in to develop something that's probably garners a $10,000 price tag.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the previous, you know, the previous promotion, we had worked on it for four months. So this would have been really fast, but mostly I just knew that I couldn't, in integrity, I could not sell a $10,000 thing to save my business. Like, no way. and I got on the call on the phone with my best friend and I had like not even said this out loud. I was like, what if what if I just let my whole team go? Like I just need a break right now. And as soon as I said it, how many people was that? It was I had three, only three full time employees, three full time employees plus me and Sandra.

So Sandra never went anywhere, nor did I. But three, those like three people's livelihoods. And I, as soon as I said it, I started crying. I got off the phone. I laid down on the floor and cried some more. And I also was like so clear. It was like, I cannot hold this for everyone. Like I can't be everything to everyone.

I just need a break. So the following Monday, I let my team go. And it was like probably the hardest day of my whole career, not nearly as hard as it was for them, probably. But it was really hard. And then I took a short sabbatical. And then the next year, I basically just started experimenting. I was like, okay, I don't have like all this overhead anymore.

So I don't need like a million students. And like I'm actually still figuring it out. But I, my business is really different now. It's just way paired back. And I'm actually not even sure if I am finished making my business smaller. Like, I might want it to be even smaller than it is. I'm really interested in people that have, like, that have businesses they love that they operate themselves or like maybe with one person. I don't know.

Like, I have learned that there are a million ways of making money on the internet that do not involve passively selling online courses with evergreen funnels. Like, I see a land of opportunity. I don't know what's out there for me. It'll be email related. So I have a selfish question here. And it's going to redirect a little bit, but hopefully other people will benefit from it. So I get an email from someone who's not as cool as you. And they are using these tactics.

What is, you know, like in the first 30 seconds as I'm reading the email, you know, I'm a driven person. I'm self in into self improvement. I want to, you know, build my business, build another business, sell a business. You know, a lot of our audience are real estate. state investors and kind of serial entrepreneurs sometimes. So they're always looking for self-improvement. When we're looking at something coming at us, what do we watch out for in order to not be manipulated? Give us all the red flags. Yes, the big ones. Probably the biggest one to look out for

is transformational promises. And even the word transformation, like, I freaking hate that word. I never use that word. So anything that feels transformational, that's like definitely a red flag. something to look into. I also think anytime you have to make a decision fast, that's like more than $1,000 or that's more, you know, we all have our zone. Like $1,000 might not be that much for me. It might be a lot for someone else. So you do kind of need to know your zone.

I always, always check in with Sandra before I buy anything. I mean, okay, I'm saying always always, like nine out of 10 times. and when I don't check in with her, it's always when I do something that's like really not smart. Like, why I didn't? I'm trying to sneak something by her. So I would say like have a conversation and talk about it with someone before you buy it. Because oftentimes even just like having someone ask you like, well, what do you think this is going to do for your business? Like where and when do you expect to get the return on investment?

Like when I'm thinking about buying something, I already know Sandra's going to ask me those questions. So I'll go to her and I'll say like, okay, right now I'm like really, I'm really into LinkedIn. I'm like, I want to learn LinkedIn. Hey, Sandra, I'm looking at this program on LinkedIn. It's 500 bucks. These are the things I'm going to learn. This is where I think I might, you know, there's a client that I'm after. I think this might give me a strategy and, you know, that could be a $20,000 project.

Like, you know, I'm like formulating the argument ahead of time because I've had the conversation a million times. But that is really important because it's so easy to, like, like marketing is like so seductive. Like I'm still good at it. And I would still recommend that like people also have these like, whether it's someone who's like a predatory person or not. That's just an important thing to do.

Like talk about it with someone, understand what you're actually hoping to get out of it. Maybe this feels a little woo and just FYI, I am not a woo person. But when you are about to make a purchase, like actually asking yourself like, how do I feel? feel in my body right now. Because what I have noticed, the way people buy, especially online courses,

is like, it is so, they are so agitated by the promotion that it's like, I am just going to click this button because I'm so freaking uncomfortable right now. I just like, I will, let me just make this go away by buying this thing. So actually like paying attention to like how do you feel in your body right now before you click this button is really, kind of an important one. I feel like a lot of the internet is so consumed with like fomo culture. Like, oh my God, if I don't do it right now, I'm never, ever going to get this chance again. But the principles of marketing is if something works, you're probably going to do it again. So I think that to me, that's a pretty big red flag. And another red flag is what I see a lot on

the internet is you're going to make X amount and X amount of time. So I'm going to make, I'll teach you to make six figures in six months. And but you have to get it in the next, you have to click it in the next 30 minutes or this fire sale of this course is going to be gone for forever. And I feel like people are very seduced by the idea of this time-bound astronomical results. But that's really not where true returns come from. Agreed. So that is a perfect example of a transformational promise. And that's a bit of an obvious one.

But sometimes, like, they really do sneak in. And even if you find yourself thinking, like, wow, this could be like the secret. it. Like, there are no secrets. Like, there just aren't. We all have to try. Yeah, right. Yes. Talking to previous students, like, can be helpful sometimes. If you're going to spend an amount of money that is uncomfortable, like, talk to some people who have been on the inside of the program. Like, you could even ask for, like, a program tour. Like, can I see what it looks like? Because there are just so many people with very slick marketing and behind the scenes is just like an absolute mess, especially in coaching. So, and, you know, even hitting reply on an email, like, what is the customer service like?

Are you actually getting replies? Someone over there paying attention. How much, like, who's in the program? If it's a cheap DIY program, like, okay, fine. But if, like, what does the support actually look like? Like, asking questions around that, who's in there? How many? How many. other people are in there? Because sometimes even if there is good support, like, if there's a thousand students, like, forget it. You're not going to get. Just basic questions. Like, am I going to get one on one time with this mentor? And if the answer is no, and it's a $10,000 course, I mean, I think I can safely say the ROI isn't there for me. Like, if $10,000 isn't chump change. So you should be getting, I guess, hey, to put it this way, but a concierge level of service

through your education at that price point. Another thing I think is like, It should be one thing that I'm, so this year I redid my website and it had been years and it's like my favorite thing that I did in 20, well, it's 2024. Last year I redid my website. My favorite thing that I did in 2023. And the thing that I am the most proud of is that it is so clear. It's clear what I do. It's clear what I don't do. It's clear who I'm for. Like if you're looking at something and you're not really sure if you're the ideal person and you're like, might be the thing. Like these, those sorts of programs like really thrive in like that murky place of like basically everybody needs this. And if it's not working for you, it's because like you just need to level up

to the next tier or you just weren't brave enough or whatever. Any language about being brave, I would even say about investing in yourself. Like those, I mean, not that it doesn't require an enormous amount of courage to be an entrepreneur, but like be brave by spending money on me, huge red flag. I think I see a lot on these courses like, just have an abundance mindset. We're really going to dig in on that. And it's like, no, I actually like want the practical skills. Like, please, please teach me those as well.

Like I'm all for abundance mindsets and getting in the right headspace. but I think a lot of those courses are based in that sort of thing and not in the practical action of doing. When I hear you talk through these things, these are really good practical tips, but I start to think, you know, this is timeless wisdom that we just have been taught by our grandparents. Don't buy the thing that says you're going to get rich quick. Don't assume that it's not going to take work. There are definitely things, and you even mentioned that that's new language that people might even use to manipulate you, but, you know, look deeper, look at the character of people,

look at results, like true results, look at how things actually work and have worked in the past. Don't assume that there's something new that has never been done before in the history of the world. But thank you so much for just sharing the depth that you have in experience and being so transparent of how you came to the conclusions and the mistakes that you made along the way. I mean, a lot of people don't share that often and I really appreciate that. All right, Tarzan Kay, thank you so much for coming on this. the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. It has been an absolute privilege talking with you today. If people want to learn more about you, you know, website or an Instagram handle that we can

direct people to. Yeah, I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn, Tarzan K. I'm the only Tarzan K, K-A-Y on those channels and I'll give you the links. Really, though, like, I'm the, if you want to hear from me, like, get on my email list. All of my best work is on my emails. I read all my email replies and I reply to most of them. So you can also talk to me. But I would say email. Well, thank you so much, Tarzan. We hope to hear from you again at some point.

And we're going to be watching all of your positive practices for email marketing. So thank you again for sharing. Thank you. All right, Kyle. That was Tarzan Kay. And wow, that was a lot of education. What did you think of that episode? Yeah.

I mean, she really has some experience in the email industry. not just in the email industry, but in marketing and selling. And I mean, even using the word manipulation, but just in, it can be done in a good and a bad way. But she just really hit on the different areas that you need to watch out for. But also, if you're building that type of business to kind of help you think through what you need to build it like. You know, what kind of business do you want to build? Who do you want to serve? I just always think about the real estate industry and then my own industry, the financial advising industry.

there's so many people out there that are just trying to sell things to people that don't need it. But there's also people out there that really want to do a good job and take care of people and provide things that people do need. So this is a really good show to go through. If someone is struggling with that right now in their own industry, you got to sell something to put food on the table, but who are you selling it to and how are you doing it? You need to think through those things and make sure that you're morally okay with what you're doing so you can live with yourself. I agree. I think the power persuasion.

is essential to sales, being a good marketer, having a good business. You need to convince people that they need your services. But I really think the crux of this conversation is about being conscious of the consumer on the other end and also being conscious as a consumer about what you actually need, especially in this day and age where fomo culture is real and you always think you're going to miss out on something. You know, you have to buy it because everybody's buying it. that's not necessarily what needs to be happening in your own life.

Yeah, definitely. She did a great job covering all of that. There's a lot you can take away. I wanted to go deeper into her business. You know, we just didn't have time to get into everything. You know, she did a really cool thing of scaling back and going smaller, which is not on the internet. You're always told to go bigger, farther, faster.

And that's not always what's, do more. Yeah, what's best for your situation. So that was really cool too. But yeah, just all around a good show. Yeah, I think a lot of people in the fire came in. probably resonated with that fact. They're always like, it's time to scale back, time to hang out. So, all right.

Well, Kyle, thank you so much for joining me today. Like, what a treat we got to do a show together. This was a good, good one. Yeah, thanks. Kailin and Kyle. Kailin and Kyle, the dream team that Mindy and Scott didn't know existed. All right, everybody. This wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

He is Kyle Mast. I am Kailin Bennett. And in the words of the great Mindy Jensen, take a break, Rattlesnake. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash Bigger Pockets Money. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaelin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show podcast. possible.