BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 50: Rebuilding Your Financial Life After Bankruptcy with Patrice Washington

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

Patrice Washington was flying high in 2006, the multi-million dollar real estate company she had started with her husband was practically printing money. But 2007/2008 came, and things went south fast. A high-risk pregnancy finally pushed her over the... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 50, where we interview the Patrice Washington. That debt kept me up. I was constantly trying to figure out what can I do. What can I do? What can I do? What can I do? The mortgage companies that I had given so much business to, not just my own, but hundreds of files, those were the same companies that wouldn't help me renegotiate my mortgages or, you know, modify my loans or anything. And I felt like a failure for sure, but like what am I going to do? and the moment we finally, even after he told us that, it probably took us four or five months to really pull the trigger. And the moment that we started the process, I'm not going to lie, that was probably the best leap I had gotten. Not just because I had a small child. It was literally the first time I felt some sort of peace.

Like, okay, I can move on with my life and accept that this is just a season and this should not define the rest of my life. And I just can't allow it to. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen.

How you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I'm having a fantastic day. It is beautiful outside. sun is shining, there's no snow, and it's a good day to be alive. How are you doing? I am doing fantastic. I was excited to interview Patrice today. I was so excited. So I had an email from Andre who said, you should get Patrice Washington on the show. She's so inspirational. Her story's so great. I'm like, you know what? I bet we could have Patrice on our show. I'm kind of a fan of Patrice Washington because she's, I mean, her story is amazing. Her story is kind of unbelievable at how high she got and how low she dropped during that horrible financial

crisis that we had 11 and a half years ago now. Yeah, I thought her story was, I mean, her story is famous and fantastic for a reason. It's because of the extreme highs and extreme lows that she's kind of seen throughout her life, the hard times and then the big breaks and then the seizing of the opportunities that she's gone after. And then, you know, all of that's, of course, driven by her unbelievable charisma that she brings to the table. Yeah. And, and, And just having that positive energy, you know what, this is not going to define me. This really awful little segment of my life is not going to define the rest of my life. And, you know, it kind of has in that it inspired her to do her best work.

But she's not someone who filed for bankruptcy. She's someone who filed for bankruptcy and bounced back and is now even better than she was before. And I think that that's, you know, her message of her husband worked at a job that most everybody would find non-appealing suboptimal at a rate that was terrible, but it provided health insurance for the family, and that's what they needed most. So you do what you have to do to survive, and then you continue moving forward. And I really like that message that she brought today is just you don't let a bad thing keep you down. Push through it. No, I love it as well. Should we bring her in? Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture,

including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code

pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in a needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know, would make this more fun, calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late

nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com.

That's F-O-U-N-D dot com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the anxious generation for parenting perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental

well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, Podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Patrice Washington, welcome to the Bigger Pockets of Money podcast. How are you doing today? I'm fantastic. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for coming on. I'm super excited to talk to you. And I want to give a shout out to Andre Nourles from Toledo, Ohio, who suggested that I reached out to you. And I'm like, you know what? I should reach out to her. She's the Patrice Washington. I'm super excited to talk to her.

So can you walk us through where your journey with money begins? Well, it was 1981. No, I'm just kidding. I would say my big kind of defining moment, if you will, actually came in my 20s. And it was the thing that helped me look back on my childhood. So I want to fast forward to 19 years old, getting involved with real estate, was introduced to real estate by a family member, falling in love with it, and then by 21 becoming a real estate and mortgage broker.

So during my senior year in college, I started my mortgage brokerage. And I thought I would do that forever, was making great money. This is in the early 2000s when that was the thing to do and thought I would do it forever. I was living the good life, the high. life until 2007 when we began to feel the effects of what will become the Great Recession. When I was on bed rest in the hospital, I had taken a fall down the stairs, 20 weeks pregnant, and went into full-term labor. Oh my God. And they said, I'm sorry, this baby's coming any minute now. And I just felt like, like, oh my gosh, everything is over. And all I knew to do was pray. But prayed and ended up being admitted

to the hospital and actually stayed there for 10 weeks on hospital bed rest. My daughter's a fighter. She held on strong. But while I was on bed rest, we were starting to see the effects. So at the time, I had 16 people, real estate agents and loan officers that worked in my business, as well as processors and all these other people. And they were calling me left and right saying, what are we going to do? This deal just fell out. Our client just lost their deposit. Like, this is happening. Every fire that could happen was kind of happening at that point. And I found myself, stressing out in the hospital watching the news. And every day the banks were shutting down.

And there was one day in particular, around five weeks after being there. My doctor came in. She could tell I would, you know, wear the belt around my waist. They were monitoring the baby and all that stuff. And she said, listen, if you don't stop stressing out, you're going to leave here two years in a row with no baby. Because the year before I had a son at 24 weeks and he died after five hours in my arms. And that was it.

I made a decision in that moment. I knew that my life was going to be different when I got out of there, but I just made a choice to surrender. I asked them to take the TV off the wall because I could not focus on, you know, the mortgage industry and the real estate bubble bursting and all that. I was just trying to bring my baby into the world healthy. And so after that, another five weeks had gone by. And at 30 weeks, I had my daughter. And she stayed in the NICU for three and a half weeks. She was perfectly healthy, no complications with her.

but I left with a healthy baby and then a healthy medical debt of about almost $400,000. And all during this time, my business was not really bringing in any money. My husband and I owned 13 pieces of property at the time. And I had tenants not paying rent. They were losing jobs. It was a nightmare. Like everything that could happen, happen. And it still kind of hits me sometimes just sharing.

Wow. That's kind of a lot to deal with all in like the span of 10. 10 weeks. I mean, one of those things is tough to deal with. But wow. Let's unpack some of that. So you have a healthy baby. Yay, hooray.

That's fantastic. Let's talk about the $400,000 in medical debt. Was any of that covered with? Yeah. We don't have to. This is your show. We can just talk about all the highs. Yeah.

I mean, but the beauty of the story is being able to get through the lows, right? So we can't talk from mountaintop to. and not share what happens in the valley. So actually, I was really blessed coming out of that whole experience. So, of course, I didn't know in the moment that I was leaving with a healthy baby and a healthy medical debt. When I went into the hospital, you know, I had insurance coverage and I figured that I was fine.

It was several weeks after getting home with my daughter when you get the bills, like after the fact and the dust is settled, when I realized that I had that medical debt and that my insurance had dropped me during the season of me being in the hospital because apparently I had exhausted some coverage amount because I was a high-risk pregnancy. I had my babies literally. My daughter was born almost a year to the day of my son. And so because I was high-risk with him and then turned around and got pregnant again and ended up in this unfortunate, you know, I wasn't necessarily high-risk with her, but I took the fall down the stairs and that created a whole other catastrophe, if you will. And so I got dropped by my insurance in the process. And I didn't know because

no one was bringing me mail in the hospital. Can they do that? They did it. Wow. They wouldn't cover anything that had to do with maternity. Oh, my God. I just don't even know where to go with that. Like, I didn't know they could cancel your coverage halfway through.

I mean, I guess if nobody's giving you the mail. So how did you get through that? Well, actually, I ended up applying for a financial hardship with the hospital directly. You know, I instantly went into, you know, reactive mode, was calling the hospital figuring out what I could do and called, started talking to folks. And a woman who I spoke to on the phone said, well, you know, we have this, some funds set aside that we only allocate to very special cases and all these things. And I literally just told my story. It was probably like two or three pages. This is who I am. This is what I was up against. Here were the circumstances.

I'm self-employed. Real estate, you know, the real estate market is taking. I don't have any other means of income and all these things. And I ended up being forgiven. They had like a forgiveness program. And I didn't find out for probably like five or six months. I was just kind of still trying to deal with the rest of life and everything that else was going on. But I got a letter one day that some of the debt had been forgiven. And it was all about 250. Okay. That's a lot. She still, she still have 150K left at this point of debt. They have to pay off. Is that right? I did. I did. I did everything I could, though. Yeah. Well, what was your position? I mean, that's much better than 400, right?

But what's your position a few months later? The dust is starting to settle. You've got that forgiven. What's your financial income, you know, how I'm doing? What's your pay off that debt from that point on? No, the dust really hadn't started to settle. It was actually really just getting started because this for me was happening. My daughter was born August 2007. So as you guys know, by the time we got to like mid 2008, it was really, like imploding, like everything was really going on. So by then, you know, I would say one of the things that I didn't know how to do at that time was ask for help. I was used to being the smart kid that could figure it out and make it happen. And so I kept trying to shift what dollars I did

have to save certain projects or maybe if I just get this done, you know, with the savings that I did have is like, if I get this done, then we can sell this property and get some cash out and use it to do. And I just kept robbing Peter to pay Paul. I'm sure you've heard that expression and just trying to finagle things and figure it out. And everything that I tried literally failed in that season. Like it seemed like nothing would work. I tried to rehab a property that I had purchased after Hurricane Katrina down in New Orleans. And they were still looking for habitable properties at that time to put so that they could bring people back from Houston and Atlanta and all this stuff.

And I dumped money into a project where the contractors stole the money was sending me pictures of completed room. that were not in my building. So my husband got there to go finally, you know, check it out, inspect the work. Let's try to get it on the market, open the doors, and the pictures we have received for the last month were not from our actual property. And so it was literally a snowball,

some would say a cluster of things that happened. So it took about a year, but after a year I had exhausted everything and shut the business down and went on a payment plan with the hospital. for the remaining debt and eventually ended up having the file bankruptcy four years later because I just never could get out of it between the mortgages and the hospital debt. It was just a losing battle and I had a mentor. Finally, I opened up and asked for help, which is something I just was

not used to doing besides what I did with the hospital. I didn't really feel like I had people to ask, you know, who had done more than I had done at that point. But ended up meeting a mentor, someone I would consider a mentor and finally told them the whole story and they're like, look, you can't nickel and dine your way out of $2 million worth of debt. You have all these properties that are mortgaged and you have this medical debt and you owe them $150,000 and you're trying to pay $350 a month. How long are you going to let this go on before you just start your life over? And I finally accepted it and had to file bankruptcy.

What year did you file bankruptcy in? 2012. Yeah. You know, I think my perspective of bankruptcy is it's something you want to try to avoid if you have 10, 20, even 30,000, $50,000 in debt. But then when you have $2 million in debt, like the way you're talking, you're piling up hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. And it just is not possible. That's, I mean, that's indentured servitude for the rest of your life. Yeah, it didn't matter what progress I made. Right. Like, it did not matter what I was doing, what progress I made. It was constantly like that dark shadow just like that hump on your back that you just. can get rid of. And when he finally said this to my husband and I, we were like, but, but, you know, I have a faith-based background, and I had just learned that that's not what you do,

you know, through some, whatever, just practices. I just never thought that I would have to do that. And because I was the one who was better off financially than most people that I knew, you know, growing up or in my immediate circle, there was a guilt and a shame

associated with it. But I tell you what, for those four years, I was not sleeping at night. That debt kept me up. I was constantly trying to figure out what can I do. What can I do? What can I do? The mortgage companies that I had given so much business to, not just my own, but hundreds

of files, those were the same companies that wouldn't help me renegotiate my mortgages or, you know, modify my loans or anything. And I felt like a failure for sure, but like what am I going to do? And the moment we finally, even after he told us that, it probably took us four, or five months to really pull the trigger. And the moment that we started the process, I'm not going to lie, that was probably the best leap I had gotten. Not just because I had a small child. It was literally the first time I felt some sort of peace. Like, okay, I can move on with my life and accept that this is just a season and this should not define the rest of my life. And I just can't allow it to.

I love that comment. So I have kind of a big problem with people who use bankruptcy, like Scott said, if you've got 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, you're like, well, I'm just going to file for bankruptcy. I'm sorry, that's not what it's for. But when your entire industry has crashed and you had nothing to do with it and you couldn't stop it and you couldn't foresee it and, you know, all of this, you're fighting a losing battle. And at that point, this is what bankruptcy is for. this overwhelming, monumental, and you still struggled for four years to try to pay it all off. But how did you get over the whole, okay, I'm just going to do this?

How did you come to terms with that? I mean, did you and your husband have a lot of, I'm assuming you had a lot of conversations about this. What was your husband doing at the time? My husband had actually, at the time that everything happened, like the when we first lost everything. Yes, yes. So at the time that all of this happened, my husband,

was actually my business partner. So we were best friends in college. And then I guess he started liking me or something. And I allowed him. You know, and it's actually my business partner. So that was the other thing. Everything that we had was together in the same industry. It's not like I had something else to depend on. Everything that we did, we did together. And my husband actually went from, we went from the seven figure business to literally scraping up change like a year later. Like I remember vividly shaking purses out just trying to get $2 and change for milk. for my daughter. It was literally that bad.

And my husband, who also college educated and had run a business before we even did our business together, went from tailored suits and traveling all over the place to taking a job at Taco Bell where he regularly had people who would throw food at him through the drive-thru window. That was the only job he could get after applying probably two dozen places and going all over the small area that we have moved to. He took a job at Taco Bell. I won't say his salary, but it was significantly lower.

Wait, then I'm paying seven figures? They weren't because you believe it for such hard work. He had health insurance. And at the time, with a small baby who was born prematurely, that was what we needed was health insurance. And he kept that job for 18 months. And during that, a period of that, we went from foreclosing on our home in Southern California to living in this 600 square foot apartment in Metairie, Louisiana, which is where we went thinking we were going to finish the properties, as I said,

and then kind of got stuck in a town where we knew no one, no friends, no family, nothing, just the three of us. The two of us and our baby, he takes the job at Taco Bell. And I eventually left and went to Atlanta and lived on my brother's couch for three months. By then, it's late 2008, early 2009. Okay. Well, let's get out of this valley and talk about the next mountain that you climbed. I mean, obviously coming out of bankruptcy and working at Taco Bell. I worked at Dairy Queen, which was not my favorite job ever. So I can't imagine, and I was like 15 or something.

Right. That is the hardest job you will ever have. It seems like the more money you make, the less like physically tasking, the less difficult your job is to deal with. I don't know. least that's my, that's my case. And yeah, being at Taco Bell would be, I'm sure, very difficult. So you went to your brother's house. You lived with him for three months. I did. But before going to Atlanta, what got me to Atlanta was being in this apartment in Metery, Louisiana. And one day, just getting to the point where I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I mean, and I think a lot of people can relate to this, especially for me, I felt like I was not one of those sleazy mortgage brokers that was putting people in bad loans. I was actually doing my due diligence.

and doing things the right way. So I thought. And I just felt this moment. My husband had taken my daughter out. And I was in the bathroom, looking in the mirror, just having one of those moments where I finally was like, God, I can't take anymore. Like, why me?

What did I do? I've been a good person. I operate in integrity. I treat people fairly. Like, how does this happen? I went to school. I got the good grades. I was on Dean's list, the USC.

Like, I'm supposed to be smart. Like, how is this happening to me? Right. And finally, it started as just kind of talking in the mirror, you know, and having this conversation out loud to a full-blown, like, bawling, snodding, crying. I don't know if you guys have ever had a moment where you just had to snot and cry. Scott, I know you're 11, so maybe you haven't had that.

Not yet. Next year. Maybe you haven't had that yet, and I hope you never have to, but really one of those, like, I can't take anymore. I was broken and broken, right? I just couldn't take anymore. And before I knew it, my knees were on the floor in the bathroom, and my head was on the linoleum and I was just literally just God what am I going to do? And I ended up finding a scripture in the Bible that in that moment was for me a defining moment.

I felt like it saved my life. And it was Proverbs 1716. It said, what good is money in the hands of a fool if they had no desire to seek wisdom. And that whole what good is money. Like what that's what I was feeling like, what good it was all the money that I made if this was the end result. I'm like, I'm only 28. I'm 27, 28 years old.

like this cannot define the rest of my life. This is nuts. But I felt this urge that was like, you got to tell people. You have to teach people this. You have to teach people that is not just about money. Like, you have to seek wisdom. It's okay to ask for help. You don't have to wait until your back is up against the wall to get wise counsel.

Like I felt this flood of emotion. Like you're not the only one and you know that. So what are you going to do to contribute to helping people? And so I took that passion that I had for financial education. when I was doing all my mortgage broker work, I was doing a lot of speaking at churches and nonprofits and all this stuff all around LA. And I took that and said,

you know what? I did lose my money in this season, but my mind isn't bad. And as long as I know what I know, there's got to be something that I could do to help other people. And in that moment, like I made it my life. I was like, this is what you're going to do. I don't know who's going to listen.

I don't know why they would listen, but that's not my job. My job is not to force people to listen. to be transparent and share what my journey is. And the next morning, I got up off that floor of bawling and snodding and crying and started a free blog spot where I would just make a little lessons, teach a little lessons about money or business. And that free blog spot, which is still up to this day, it's an ugly little blog spot.

I knew nothing about being on the internet or any of that stuff. I come from the background of running a brick and mortar business. So I had no concept of it, really. But I started that free blog spot. and it turns into eventually writing for other websites, and then it turned into writing for magazines, and then radio, and then books and TV and all the other stuff.

But that was the moment being on that floor saying, this can't be it. What is that blog spot link? I want to link to that in the show notes. It's seek wisdom, find wealth. Dot blogspot.com. And I leave it up in particular because I just want people to remember that you have to start somewhere and don't,

And like, just don't forget. Like, I don't want to forget. I think it's easy to get caught up because people regard me now as America's Money Maven and all this stuff. But I know what I was thinking in the moment that I started that. And the moment it came to me on that bathroom floor. And I, like, I can't forget that. It's why I have the compassion for people that I do. You know, that's a good point because it's really easy to sit here in 2018 when we're recording this.

And it's a really great economy and think, you know, oh, well, it wasn't that bad. Yeah, it was that bad. 2007, 2008. I had a brand new baby too. So my focus was a little bit someplace else. But it was a really, really, really awful time. And to be working in this industry where literally you're suffering from the skeezy people that were also in your industry, even though you kept yourself in high regard, is very, very difficult to swallow. And that's just so easy to forget.

I'm sorry, Scott, I cut you off. Oh, no, I think that's a great point. I was just going to kind of go and see if we could talk about kind of the nuts and bolts of what you kind of did to rebuild your position following the bankruptcy. And like, you know, what does your kind of spending look like? How did you kind of go about generating more income? Where did you kind of begin reinvesting? What were the, you have, after you have a bankruptcy, there's challenges where you can't get credit anymore for a little bit. I kind of wanted to kind of walk through maybe that, that journey a little bit.

Yeah. So one of the first things that I really got clear about is the fact that I was, I was sharing with people more and folks were trying to tell me about couponing and using all your rewards and using all these different things. And I tried it for a bit, Scott. And honestly, I was like, you know what? With the same effort of six hours on a Sunday cutting out coupons, I really could be working on how am I going to really use what I feel like I need to do in the marketplace. So instead of doing that, I started to volunteer at financial education nonprofits all over Atlanta, literally Googling, finding them and emailing them and saying,

hey, I would love to volunteer. Here's my background. Here's stuff I've taught. Several people ignored me. A couple people said, yes, that's all you ever need. And I really started to make a name for myself just because I was engaging and I used stories more than like hardcore. Point 1.2.3, you know, as their curriculum outlined,

I really tried to leverage the stories that I knew of personally or from other people along with their curriculum and then just became known. for doing that. And so those types of things started to give me opportunities to make money. And then I would take that money. We based everything that we used for expenses only off of my husband's income. And then any of those things that came up, I would use it towards saving and paying off debt. Those are two things I always looked at doing simultaneously. So when we did have to get another car, I learned about second chance banking and second chance financing and all these things that I had never had an awareness of.

But again, it was continuing to like, you know, I got denied by the first credit union where I tried to get a car. When we got to Atlanta, we had one car. And I remember taking my husband to Taco Bell 25 miles away from our house. And then taking my daughter, like another 10 miles to a family friend, the only people we really knew there

to watch my daughter, because I couldn't afford daycare at that time, only to drive back to the same area to do the volunteering or the odd jobs. that I had taken. And so we had one car. We did that for several months and then went to apply for a car and got denied, of course. And still, going back and saying, hey, I got the letter that I was denied, like, is there any chance? Is there any hope? And someone at the bank saying, well, you know, we have what we call second chance financing. You're going to have a ridiculously high rate.

And you're going to, but at the time it was like, but we need the additional car to get more money to do what it is we want to do. And so I learned of a lot of kind of unconventional opportunities, I guess, to kind of stay in mainstream. And I paid exorbitant amounts for several years. It's really just in the last, I would say, three years that I'm back to having normal rates for different products. I still don't use credit cards to this day. I still only have one credit card. But most of the debt that was included in my bankruptcy were mortgages. they weren't cards and all that, but it's still. You mentioned something earlier where you were paying off debt, your husband's

working on the job, and then you are volunteering and taking odd jobs and you're paying off debt. What debt did you kind of come out with after the bankruptcy? After the bank, no. So when my husband was at Taco Bell, that was before 2012. That was like 20 and 2011. And that was where all those jobs, I was in like a million different payment plan. And so it was like $350 to the hospital and it was $200 to here and, you know, trying to pay off a second mortgage on this random property in Texas.

And there were just a series of little things and I would just rotate. And I kept a perfect Excel sheet, you know, where I would just allocate things. And honestly, there were some things where I was paying like $50 and $75 and $100. And whatever I could do, I just kept shelling towards it. And then in 2012 is when I learned of filing bankruptcy and that's what we ended up doing. Yeah. So after the bankruptcy, what did you guys do for work? So by the time of the bankruptcy, I actually was starting to do this. So I was already sharing my story. So when I got off in 2009, like early 2009, is when I started the blog. So simultaneously, as I was paying off debt and stuff, I was sharing that journey.

I was sharing like, here's what's going on. It wasn't a pretty journey, but, you know, again, I was doing it more so locally and through my blog, and people were interested. And that's the first time I realized that people would actually have some type of interest in other people's financial woes because it gave them a sense of, like, hope as well that they weren't alone. And that's when I really started to use my story. So by actually, by 2012, I had written my first book. I used a collection of the blog post to write my first book.

That came out June of 2012. it was a book more so catered towards college students. And I think that was the first time that it dawned on me that again, in the midst of my own pain, that I could still use it purposefully. I could still use what I had experienced because there were especially younger people who I never wanted them to even touch anything I had been through. You know, and you're just like, it was that feeling of I don't want other people to even know what this feels like.

So if I can offer something that's preventative, let me at least do that. But by then I had about two and a half years of creating content and trying to help other people. So this blog, the book, all that kind of stuff, was this, was this part of a business that you owned? It became a business. Yeah. I guess what I'm wondering is you went through a bankruptcy with this, but they didn't come after like the rights to your book or anything like that as part of that. No. And it wasn't intentionally, but the book was published after I filed for bankruptcy. I see. Okay. Yeah, and that wasn't even intentional. It was just kind of how things lined up. But yeah.

That makes sense. So it sounds like right at the time of this bankruptcy, you were able to start a new job, a new business that was able to begin sustaining yourself and your family. Was your husband working at the same time as well while you were kind of getting recovering from the bankruptcy? Like immediately following that, you were starting, you were running the business and then what was he doing? Yeah, actually so in 2012, as I was writing the book, I mentioned that I started. to volunteer at a financial education nonprofit. So I became such to start volunteer that they actually created a position for me. I see.

Also in 2012, I signed on to be the financial management consultant at a nonprofit, and I was helping people get through their own financial challenges and counseling and coaching one-on-one, probably almost 200 people before I left, but I was there for about 18 months. So I was doing that. And at the same time,

And my husband actually was transitioning out of Taco Bell because I had been offered a job by Steve Harvey, who was my boss at 18 years old. I was his intern. And so he found out that I was in Atlanta and just the position that we were in and actually offered me a job. But this is where the Chase purpose, not money, comes in. By then, I really felt like I am supposed to help other people get through these types of challenges. And when Steve came around and I, offered the job while it was a job that I needed and my family needed and I should have jumped on it. It didn't feel right because it didn't have anything obviously to do with financial education. And I was driving there actually to accept that job when the president of that nonprofit called and said, hey, we're thinking about starting this position and we think that it would be great. Here's what it entails. Do you want to do it? And I was like, oh my gosh, yes, like this is perfect. This is totally for me. And then he said, but it doesn't start for six months.

Whomp, like that was the worst thing I could have heard in that moment. I've been volunteering for like a year with you guys. What do you mean? It doesn't start for six months. But I was still on my way to chat with Steve and his manager at the time. And I was going, oh, my gosh, my family needs this money, but this is not what I really want to do. And in the midst of talking to them, I blurted out, I can't do it.

And when I heard it come out, knowing what I, I've been through for the last couple of years. I was like, you're a crazy person. How can you say that you can't do it? And Steve in true Steve fashion was like, aren't you broke? Like, didn't you say that you're like trying to rebuild what's wrong with you? And I just couldn't do it.

And I said, but you know who would be great is my husband because the business my husband started before he joined me in real estate was in entertainment. And I said, you know what, Gerald would be great. What about him? And they talked for a second. They looked at each other. They were like, okay, he can start on Monday.

It was a Wednesday. And I was like, do you mean you want to interview him or talk to him on Monday? No, he can start. We'll make something happen for him. They really just took pity on us, honestly. But luckily, we are both technically smart. So it worked out. And we burned Gerald's Taco Bell uniform in the fireplace of our apartment that night.

I'm like, I don't think this is how you're supposed to quit a job. I think you're supposed to give a notice. But he never went back. We burned all his uniforms, and except for one that he has framed to this day. And he started that next week. He started by doing very odd jobs, low-level kind of production assistant, and then had the opportunity to look over a contract one time that Steve didn't understand some stuff. And he just wanted an extra set of eyes.

And it took several years, but he worked his way up to being the president of that company. he just left the company this year, but he did that for seven years. Wow. And I didn't take another job until the other one came available. And that was during the time that I wrote my book. That was when I just started writing the book. Oh, that's good. So you had some, I don't want to say time off, but you had some time to really write.

I want to go back to Taco Bell just for a minute because I have encountered people my whole life who will say, oh, I could never do that. I'm not going to work there. I'm better than that. And I love that part of your story that your husband was like, look, I need to provide health insurance for my child. So I am going to swallow my pride and I am going to go work at a job that is suboptimal at best. I love eating a Taco Bell, but I could not work there.

And I mean, of course, I could work there. If I needed to provide health insurance for my baby and that's the only option, you bet your butt I would go there and I would work. And I would be miserable every day, but I would, yes, sir and yes, ma'am, every customer that came in because I would not want to lose the only job I could find in the middle of a financial crisis. So I just want to point out that this is, you know, you do what you have to do to survive. And sometimes that means working at Taco Bell.

And that, that, I love your story even more now because you found this guy who was like, I'm going to do it. And it's going to suck for a while. And I'm just going to do it anyway because that's what you do. Yeah. It was a very humbling time. I remember he would bring home the leftover. bags of like lettuce, tomato cheese.

You would be surprised what you could make with tortilla lettuce. You can make a million different dishes. And we literally lived with that for several months. There were several months. And at the time as well, my brother had run into a bunch of unfortunate circumstances. And we even took my niece in at that time as well, who was already a teenager and who was used to living life the way they lived life and then came to live with us. And it was an entire different thing.

So yeah, I applaud my husband. to this day for being humble enough because I don't know many people that would have done it and definitely done it for so long. And I was there in the Taco Bell the first time I witnessed someone actually saying you got my order wrong and opening the whole thing and chucking him in the face.

I was there. And I remember hearing up. And, you know, I remember the whole process. So when people say things even to this day to us where they're like, well, you don't know understand. You don't understand what it's like. I'm like, thank God I don't look like what I've been through, but trust me when I tell you that I do understand. And that is why I share my story so that people know that there is something on the other side when you don't give up.

And when you keep going and when you keep building relationships and when you keep showing up and when you keep looking for trying to find the lesson or the blessing or whatever this experience is. And we just chose to see this as a time that was not happening to. And we just chose to see this as a time that was not happening to us, it clearly was happening for us. And we just made that distinction in our minds. We made a distinction that, okay, clearly there's something that I'm supposed to get from this. So let me not look over that or look past it. And my husband has that Taco Bell shirt and his name tag framed. And it says, and he has this little placard or whatever on it that says, this time in my life is called humility. And so for all the things that he's been able to do,

for all the things that people who he's impressed, he's been an executive producer on shows and he's done all these things now, he always comes back to that. But humility, like, I wouldn't have been here without that season. I wouldn't have had the transitions that I've had without it. And so I know that's a time that can usually rip couples apart

because financial stress like that can do that. And instead, we found a way to make ourselves closer. We hung in there together. We created little mantras. that we made up, we would see cars going by, like we had a BMW at one time, or, you know, we had a Range Rover back in the day, and we would look at them and smile at each other and say, been there, done that on the way back. And we just had these little phrases. And when one of us was weak, the other person would, you know, do little stories or we would make jokes, but we

refuse to let both of us be down at the same time. Like, we both can't feel that way. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going and more importantly where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning to

in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple.

Use the code Pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code Pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly.

Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you,

23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets.

Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest registered agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow

businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides, who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes,

and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data, and all services are handled in-house, because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free, and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered. agent.com slash money free.

So what was going on, I guess, you know, post-bankruptcy, you're working on this business. There's a nice break from Steve Harvey for a job opportunity there. A lot of hard work, perseverance. What does your personal wealth situation look like? How are you accumulating assets? Are you saving? Are you investing? What does that kind of look like?

And how does that accelerate over the period following your bankruptcy? Yeah. One of the first things that we were really clear on is that we needed to invest in life insurance again, get a life insurance policy was like one of the first things. Unfortunately, when everything hit the fan, that was one of the first things to go. And in particular as parents, we were really concerned about that, you know, that we have a baby now. And what if something happens? How, you know, is she going to be taken care of? So that was one of the first things. We found a financial advisor. And to this day, she's our financial advisor. But she was an angel because I remember the first time sitting down with her and I immediately went into,

we used to have this and I used to have a million dollar policy and he used to have a two million dollar policy and then this happened and that happened and she said whoa whoa whoa I'm not here to judge you I'm not here to make you feel bad about what you've already experienced I can only imagine what you already feel I just want to help you figure out what goals are next for you and we'll just build from there and we started with I think a $50,000 term life insurance policy and now we've built over the years, but every three to six months, she would check in with us, see where we were financially, and then we would talk about what increasing that looked like. And so life insurance, getting back just in the, even the mindset that we deserve life insurance, because when you go through

things like that, you feel like, a lot of people feel like, well, I don't have enough money and I don't have anything to lead to anyone. So I'm just going to direct that bit of money somewhere else to a bill I need to pay off. But for us, that was really important. And really just started saving, not really getting heavily into investing. We were saving, and as I do now, saving what kind of sub accounts or themes in mind. So I've always been about kind of naming the money. So we have what people would call an emergency fund. One of our first goals was getting back to having an emergency fund.

I referred to it as opportunity fund. I just don't like the word emergency. It doesn't inspire me. It never has. I've never been inspired by, you know, what if you have a flat tire? But I was inspired by maybe one day you can, write a book, you know, get this book done. Or maybe, you know, one day you guys can actually take a vacation again.

Or maybe you can save up to this. And our big thing was paying off that car that had the ridiculous interest rate. I want to say it was maybe 12 or 13% from that second chance financing that we got. Our big thing was like paying that off as well as just accumulating some savings. And I always tell people, I know that we live in the real world. accidents don't make appointments. Things came up that required the money that I thought was going to be for the book or for this or for that. But I felt like it was better to have that kind of positive spin on the saving. It was easier for me to get my husband on board with kind of moving money over there and being very intentional about it. And then when life happened, we still had the money. No matter what I called the account, I took care of life if it came up. That was what it was. But we were really focused on paying that car off and saving initially. and just getting life insurance. That was probably like my first year out of bankruptcy. That was all I really cared about. What happened after that? What was your kind of journey with money

after you kind of paid that car off and got a little into a better position 18 months later? It was really just continuing to work with my financial advisor and hit different goals. I was very focused on investing in building the business. By then, I knew I was on to something with building my brand. And so we continuously hit goals for building a website, a real website, not my blog spot.com or investing in a coach to help me with that self-publishing process or just doing different things that we felt like would advance the business while still simultaneously saving. And then as time went on, we just continued to formalize the business by really making it a business and not a hobby. I was still working at that time. So I was working full time and doing all

of this stuff in the wee hours of the morning in the middle of the night. And the goal became because I was not the best employee. I was excellent at my job, but I was not a great employee. I had never really been an employee. I had always been self-employed, so kind of clocking in and clocking out was like hard. It was really hard to grasp sometimes.

And so the next goal for us was, as Joe was starting to get promotions, we still lived kind of at the same rate of just a little above, what his Taco Bell salary was. And we just continued to use the money that I brought in to invest in the savings, as well as getting my business kind of up and going so I could create whatever that exit strategy looked like.

And then Gerald's income, we tried to save as much as we could after our basic monthly expenses. And then in working with our advisor, we just kept going up on our life insurance. We had some friends who had different challenges with their aging parents. So we realized we'd better.

are looking at long-term care insurance for our parents. And so we just continue to look at those buckets. Now our daughter is getting older. We got to make sure that we have this 529 plan for her. And so we just started to continuously every three to six months. Like I said, look at where we were and how do we direct any new income or increased income towards going straight towards those things that matter to us, not necessarily upping our lifestyle immediately. So it sounds basically like you were living pretty lean for a while and just continue doing that. Even as opportunities and your circumstances got better and better and better, you invested pretty much everything in your business, that was the major opportunity. And that's taken off and paid off very well for you and your family over time.

And that's really how you kind of drove wealth throughout this process over the six years following your bankruptcy, six seven years following your bankruptcy. Yeah. I mean, I always say I like to stay committed to the vision, not attached to how I kind of get there. But as I started to learn more and I was exposed to more and I saw more examples of what was possible, then it made me dream bigger. And then the bigger I started to dream about what I could do, then I knew that I needed to this time around invest in the education to get there. So to be honest, those first few years, I probably spent more on coaching and mentorship than people would think. You would think like, you don't have the money to do that. But I didn't see it as optional.

I knew that the first time around, a part of what happened is that I didn't have people in place that I felt like I could go to to get the support I needed. And for me, I just didn't, I couldn't imagine starting something new that I really loved and then allowing myself to get back to that place of having no outside support, no coaching, no guidance. And so that was a big thing for us. I couldn't start off in any huge programs, but if there was a $500 seminar, I went to it. If there was an opportunity to join some group and just have a mastermind or something for $1,000, then, yeah, I was putting $200 aside from a check for several weeks so that I could invest in that. And I do believe that that is a part of what's paid off. Like, I feel like I bet on myself. I could have just tried to save it, but I don't think I'd be here.

So you said that you spent more on coaching and mentorship, and I'm assuming that's more towards the business. But what was some of the best support that you received? And what are some things you would recommend to people who are listening that are looking for some sort of financial help? Like what would be a really great first step? So for the financial help, one of the things that I realized early, and this came through, again, the mentor that I told you I spoke to was, is not thinking that I needed to have a million dollars to figure out who would be on my financial team, like that I could have a team based on where I was, which was what prompted the conversation with the financial advisor, who then introduced us to an estate planner, a great CPA.

And so I started to not, for me, it was not about seeing myself, again, being in that space forever. I felt like we need to start out how we want to end up. And let's arm ourselves with a great team of people. And people kept introducing us to different folks that we could have on this team, that we could interview and get to know and see if our personalities, because I didn't want to be in a place again where something happens. I wait until my back is up against the wall to find whoever these people could be.

And I think it took us probably two years to get to a good rhythm of like finding people that we could trust, that we felt like we're not judgmental and that they had a shared interest in us really seeing us succeed and reach our goals. And so if someone's going through something, I would say, don't think you have to have a million dollars. don't think you have to have a six-figure income to start having those conversations. Some things we could not immediately pull the trigger on, but we met people that we felt like we had a great vibe with, a connection with.

And we were like, okay, when we hit this milestone or when this happens, that's who I want to use. That's who support I want. And then there were some people who were like, I would never talk to them again in my life. But it was great to know that at that time, right? That wasn't a fit for us. Right. I like how you say that it took you about two years to find people that you could trust and that

you make it sound like it isn't just some instant snap of the fingers. All of a sudden, I found this great person. We interviewed Kyle Mast, who's a certified financial planner on episode 41 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, and he had some great tips for finding a financial advisor or a financial planner. How did you find yours? I was introduced to her at an event, honestly. I had been, she was not the first person I met. One of the first people that I met was referred to me by someone who was really further along, older kind of family friend, well established, had all their stuff together for like 50 years. And they were trying to introduce us to someone who was not used to working with folks who were in our position.

They weren't interested, you know, in working with someone like us. But they took, they took the call, they took the meeting. And it was, I felt very judged. And I felt like there was a condescending tone behind everything. It was like a almost like, wow, so you just let that happen. That's what it felt like. And when we talked about having all these bills to pay and letting our insurance lapse, they were very judgy about it.

And to me, I felt like this is someone who's never been in a place where you have to decide am I going to pay rent or life insurance. And so there you go. And I knew that wasn't a fit. I didn't feel great about it. And then shortly thereafter, just a friend mentioned this woman and I had an opportunity to sit down with her in person. And like I said, she just made me feel so okay with where I was that as long as you have

the wherewithal and the awareness that you need to start again, that you can start over and you can start small, then that's what matters for you in this season. It's not about comparing yourself to your old self and it's not about comparing yourself to anyone else around you. What works for you? And because she allowed me to feel that way and make you, it's not about me comfortable starting over with a $50,000 policy. Who cares I had a million dollar policy before it's laps. It's gone. That's gone. Right? Like I have to start with where I am. And I was so grateful for that and she continues to work with us. Yeah. You know, I like that comment too, that that you talk to somebody and they weren't the right fit. And then you talk to somebody else and then you finally

found this person that was a great fit. And I want to encourage anybody who's looking for a financial advisor or a financial planner to, you know, talk to somebody. And if you get kind of, of an off vibe, find somebody else. You don't need to sit there with somebody who's going to be judgy and saying, oh, well, you just let this happen, nice, because they're not going to give you advice that you can use. They're going to always have in the back of the head, oh, wow, she got into $2 million of debt and went bankrupt, whatever. They're not going to have your best interest in mind. They're not going to work their best work for you because they've already written you off. And forget them. You don't want them either. Find somebody that really gels

with you because this is your financial future that you're planning and you want somebody who understands what you're trying to do and wants to help you get there. Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to discuss about your financial journey before we get transition over to our famous four questions? I would just say that one of the questions that people have asked me the most over the years now is just how did you do it? Like how did you do it?

how did you get off your brother's couch? And now you're on the couch sitting next to Dr. Oz having this conversation or Harvey. And the truth is that I probably have not focused as much on money as people would like to believe. That's the truth. I haven't felt like rebuilding my wealth has been all about the right financial advisor. Those things have been a great piece. But for me, the reality is there are other areas in my life that I have had to work on. so that now in this space, I could actually sustain the money amassed or the wealth that we're building

at this point. And so, you know, on my podcast, redefining wealth, that's what it's about. To me, wealth is not just about money and material possessions. That is like one indicator, but wealth is about well-being. And so I talk about a lot of other things because I realize, for example, that my wealth has really been generated in creating relationships that matter. When I tell that story about Steve Harvey, that was in my late 20s, but I met this guy at 18 years old, right? Like, it was supposed to be a six-week internship that turned into me working for him for two years. And that, fast forward a decade later, is a part of what has helped us, you know, get these opportunities. I didn't ask Steve to put me on the radio.

He volunteered. He asked me, do you want to release your book? Do you want to have an interview? And that interview turned into a weekly segment for four years. and it wasn't because I asked for it. And so I don't like for people to not think about the other areas of their life that actually impact their money and wealth because the truth is that you can chase those things forever.

You can have all the smarts in regards to what are the best policies and what are the best products and what are the best things. But if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're not taking care of the relationships that you're fortunate enough to have, if you're not really taking care of the environment around you, there are other ways that you can lose money besides a recession. There are other ways that you can lose money besides a job loss. And the fact of the matter is, when I was working down in Atlanta with those few hundred people, more of the conversation became the other things that impact money.

So people would say, well, Patrice, I don't know how to budget. And then we would get into it. And I'm like, you don't have a budgeting problem. You have a people problem. You're trying to buy love and affection. And so you're wasting money. could go towards savings or paying off debt because you want to be big man at the bar or, you know, you want to impress family members or friends and all this stuff. And so if anything,

I would just say that truly I feel like I'm here because, one, I do believe that this was my calling. It was my life's work. It was a super raggedy way to get there. But it is what it is. This is why I have the compassion that I have and that just don't negate the other areas of your life. that do lead to you producing wealth. Like don't be so caught up in working long hours and all this stuff that you don't invest in the other areas of your life. In particular, your physical fitness, your mental fitness, your relationships, your spirituality.

Like all those things matter. I think they play a part. Yeah. You said something, you said creating relationships that matter. And one of my favorite things to recommend to people is to give freely without any expectation of return because those are the people. And it's not like, oh, I'm going to give freely without any expectation of return, but really I expect a favor. Now you owe me. It's like, no, you just, but when you do that, then people want to give freely back to you. And that is something

I think that's starting to come around a little bit more, but I also think it's really overlooked by a lot of people. And that just helps. You created a relationship with Steve Harvey. You were an intern. If you were a really crappy intern, would they have kept you after week six? No, they would have been like, oh, all you do is nothing all day. You're going to be doing that for six weeks and that's it. Or maybe even two weeks when they discover that, you know, but you provide value to somebody simply because it's an opportunity. It's a job. You're doing what you want to do. And then things just open up. Yeah, I agree. I always say there's always someone watching you who has the power to bless you, but who are they watching you be? Oh, my goodness. At the time.

the blessing or the opportunity is not going to come from something you did for that person, but they may see it expressed in other ways out there. And you're not even conscious of that. And I think that that's like the theme of my life, you know, like even in my own pain, even in my own process of figuring it out, I was just committed to helping other people with what I did know. And I'm really grateful that I didn't try to wait to become some Mac Daddy expert at everything because it doesn't require that. Like if you know one thing more than someone else, then I feel like at this stage in my life, I have a responsibility. And even I felt then, like, I have a responsibility to share that one tibit I know.

And those things just snowball. And they can snowball into something amazing. And I'm really grateful for the career that I have now. I didn't set out to be this. I just set out to try to help people with my story. And that was it. And here we are. And here we are with America's Money Maven. I love it. I think that that's the approach to life that's success. That leads to success in every single area. It just sounds like, how do I go above and beyond? Right? You do not get past that six weeks of internship by saying that's not my job or I'm not going to do that. It's how can I help you? How can I do go above and beyond in every area I possibly can and do that consistently over a very long period of time? And it leads to where you're at, which I think is,

that's what I'm hearing at least. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I love that. That's what I try to communicate, especially to like college students when I have the opportunity to speak to young people, college students, high school students. It's like telling people that's not what I'm here to do is the fastest way to like do nothing after you leave here. Like go above and beyond every time. Even with my 11 year old daughter, when she turns in homework, I check her homework at night. I'm like, your name is on this. Is this, did you do this in excellence? So you're just trying to get done so you can go outside and play. Like, your name is on, like, represent yourself,

be an advocate for yourself, be proud of anything that you put your name on. Like, go all the way. Don't half-ass things. Like, you're better than that. You're better than that. And plus, there's people watching. So why not show up in the best possible light?

That is perfect. That is perfect. I can't add to that at all. So we are going to now transition to our famous four questions. These are the same four questions that we ask everybody. I'm sorry, these are the same five questions we ask everybody. Four questions and a demand.

First one is what is your favorite finance book? T. Harv Acker's Secrets of the Millionaire Mine. That would be one of my favorites. It was one of the ones I discovered like in college coming out of college. Oh, I don't know if I've read that one. I don't. I have not. Have you read that one?

No, I've not. I've heard of it, but I haven't actually read it yet. What I should do is make a whole list of all these books that people recommend and then go read them. Some of them I've read, but most of them I have not. I'm just so used to always having read the book and liking books that people recommend. I'll also go check that one out. All right. We've probably covered this a little bit.

But what of the, I guess, several things that kind of led to the bankruptcy, what do you think was the biggest mistake that kind of went in there that was maybe avoidable? The biggest mistake was over leveraging myself with the real estate, thinking that because I could qualify for a mortgage that I could afford the property. And that was the catalyst. Had we stopped at like three properties? I probably would not be America's Money Maven. But getting to 13, I had no business.

I had no business at that time doing that. And that was the biggest mistake. And if I had any regrets, it would be that. It would be over leveraging myself with real estate at that time. I think it's a great lesson. And I think that with that's what we're trying to. prevent here with this podcast, right? The purpose of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast is to say, hey, we know that you, the listeners, want to invest in real estate in some capacity. That's a part of

bigger pockets, right? Get the financial foundation in place before investing in real estate. Real estate can be a powerful tool or it can be a terrible enemy, you know, terrible, terrible menacea if you kind of overextend and invest outside of a position of financial strength. Yeah. Going in. And I just got back to real estate investing, just in the, the last few years and just totally different strategies now, like completely different than what I would have done before. So that was just going to be what I was going to ask.

Do you, did you ever get back into real estate investing? So how many properties do you have now? I have three properties, but they're 50 units. 50 units total. 50 units total, 50 doors on the three properties. Okay. Oh, wow. Oh, that's a story we should dive into on the real.

estate podcast, maybe. Okay, what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? And I think we kind of covered this too, but these are the famous four questions. So we have to ask them all. For people who are just starting out, I would say giving yourself permission to move forward. Because sometimes we get trapped in that little loop of the story of our failure or whatever may have happened. And we start to define ourselves by that and giving yourself permission to, you know, it except this is a season in my life. it happened, but I have the right and the wherewithal and the smarts and the ability to move forward and just start over. And I think, unfortunately, when I look at a lot of people who I knew during that time in real estate,

not everyone has bounced back the way my husband and I have. And even when I chat with people, I move back to L.A. And I run into people. And even when I chat with people, you could tell that they're stuck in the same story. And I think our biggest blessing has been the ability to give ourselves the permission to get out of that story and move forward with our lives. Yeah, that's a huge one. Giving yourself permission to accept that I'm not perfect,

accept that you need to accept it. This was my season, and now I'm done with that season. Now it's a new season. That's great. All right. Last the most difficult question, what is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Oh my gosh.

I'm not a great joke teller. That's okay. One of my daughter's jokes. I would try to still, is usually... That's perfect. with people by telling them something that my daughter told me. But she's full of jokes, but I'm really not. I usually steal whatever she just told me.

Well, one of her jokes would be perfect. Yeah, one of her jokes would be perfect. Scott loves these jokes. I think they're horrible. So one of our listeners sent in a list of jokes for us. One of them was what do you call a can opener that doesn't work? A can't. No, I don't know.

A can't opener. That was right. You were right. The line of something my daughter would say. So maybe that's why I was like leaning towards it. Yes. But I usually tell a funny story about things that she says to me about. I can't cook. Oh, this may be funny to someone.

I don't know. I like this story. But cooking is not my thing. I'm not very domestic. I can keep a clean home, but I don't do well in the kitchen. So I decided that I was going to do better in that area. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to get one of those little meal prep box things delivered to the door. It's dumb.

Like, it's dummy proof. It's toolproof. Like, you can't mess this up. Everything comes measured out and proportioned correctly and all this. All you have to do is follow. Just read. Like, you can read so you should be able to do this. So I did it one night and I guess my daughter's stomach it.

And then I tried to do it again the next night. And I don't know what the heck I did. I read it, but it's like my mind shuts off. And so we sit down at dinner. my husband was traveling and she leans over and she's like, mom, daddy and I love you just how you are, but you have to stop doing this. I'm like, what do you mean? I followed the direction.

She's like, this is just, you write books. Just go write a book. But it was, she was like eight. She was so sincere, but she knew when we sat down, she's like, I'm not going to take this crap another night with her. Like, I'm not going to eat it just to make her feel. good. This is it. And so those are the things that my daughter, I always tell her, I laid on bed rest for 10 weeks for you and look at how you treat me. Like whatever. Eight year olds are brutal.

They are brutally honest. Okay. Now here is the demand. Where could people find out more about you? Tell us where people can find out about you. Tell us where people can find out more about you. You can find out everything about me at Patrice Washington.com. And you can check out the podcast, redefining wealth there at Patrice Washington.com or in your favorite podcast player. And social media, I'm really active on Instagram and Twitter at seek wisdom PCW. Seek Wisdom PCW. That's my little daily reminder. Okay.

Awesome. We will link to all of that in the show notes. The show notes can be found at biggerpockets.com. slash money show 50. Okay, Patrice, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I learned a lot about you. And I guess I didn't realize that you had gone all the way into that really deep bankruptcy valley.

But, I mean, look at you now. I know. I'm grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to share. I feel like sometimes it's not the prettiest story. You know what I mean? I don't want a pretty story.

I want a real story. I think it's inspirational and something that people can relate to and learn from and in a lot of ways repeat a lot of what you've done and go after it. Yeah, I'm glad. I agree with that. I agree that, you know, there's going to be people who maybe aren't, did you say it was $2 million in debts? People don't have $2 million. Or maybe they do. Maybe they don't.

Maybe they think, oh, it's $50,000. But to them, that is their whole world. and it is this insurmountable giant pile that they just can't get over. And well, Patrice Washington pulled herself out of even more. So if she can do it, I can do it. And, you know, she had so much more to overcome and she was able to do it. I should be able to do it too. So I think this is helpful for people in so many different categories across all different

spectrums. I hope so. But I thank you guys so much just for the opportunity to share. Thank you for coming on. All right, that was Patrice Washington. Mindy, what did you think? Oh, my goodness. I love Patrice.

So I feel bad saying I love her story. Yay, she went bankrupt. But, like, really, I love the inspiration that she gives. And I really, really love the I can do it. I am not going to let this keep me down forever. Positive attitude that she had that really got her through, you know, a pretty dark time. And like I said, in the episode, it's a little difficult now in 2000. to sit back and remember just how awful it was.

You know, your mind stops remembering all those really terrible times, but she's not unique in any way. There were so many people that were riding this real estate high and they were buying properties that they really couldn't afford, but, hey, the bank gave me money for it, so I might as well. Or, you know, I'm qualified for it. Or I'll be able to rent it out and everything will work because it had been working for so long.

And then to crash, I mean, that was a really spectacular. crash. So just to get over that and hop right back up on the horse again is fantastic. I just love her enthusiasm. Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. And I thought her attitude was really what has kind of carried her through her and her husband's attitude are really what carried the family through through all those difficult times, all those challenges, and have led to the incredible success that she sees today and the career that she's had. Yes, yes. This episode ran a little long, so I think we should get out of here, Scott. Are you ready to go? Let's do it. Okay. from episode 50 of the Bigger Puckets Money podcast.

This is Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, and we are gone.