BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 522: How to Get PAID to Live in an Affordable City & Fast-Track Financial Freedom

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today, we're talking about a question that we know has been on a lot of your minds. How would my financial situation change if I moved from a high cost of living area to a medium or low cost of living area? What would the tradeoffs be? Would they be worth it? Or would my social life and quality of life take too much of a hit? On today's episode, we bring in Alison Irby Vu to talk about her experience from moving from Washington, D.C. to Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Starting point is 00:00:27 Allison made her move using the Tulsa Remote Program, which offers money to incentivize people to move to the city and help revitalize it. And while there's many programs like that out there, this episode is not to encourage you to specifically think about one of them, but more we want you to consider whether or not your city is holding you back financially and whether making a move like Allison's can help alleviate your financial stress and further you down the path to financial independence. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen and I am flying solo today because Scott is out gallivanting around town. Just kidding, he's taking a well-deserved day off and will join me again soon.

Starting point is 00:01:12 As always, I am here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because I truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're. are starting. Without further ado, let's bring in Allison. Allison Irby Voo, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I have so excited to talk to you today. Thanks for having me. It's really great to be with you as well, Mindy. Allison, right around the beginning of the pandemic, we started to hear about people who were leaving big city life and moving to smaller towns. During that time, you hopped on board that bandwagon and you moved from Washington, D.C. to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Do you remember the

Starting point is 00:01:51 moment you started really considering making the move? I do. actually. I was going on a walk with my son. We found this trail near our house. And while it was there, it was just the two of us. And I thought, I could do this anywhere. We were just in the middle of nature, just kind of exploring. And yeah, it was just kind of, why do I want to spend a crazy amount on rent to stay in a place where I work remotely? So I'm working. at home and then other than that, I'm out in nature with my son every day. And I thought we could really be exploring places that we normally wouldn't. And the pandemic really opened up this way of thinking. It's something that I wanted to do, but being in that environment where it's like,

Starting point is 00:02:45 it's just the two of us. We could do anything and go anywhere is when it really started to click for me. I love the idea that you can go anywhere. It seems like, our jobs keep us really geographically cemented, but during the pandemic, everybody was working from home or most people were working from home. So being able to go someplace else is awesome. Let's backtrack a little bit. You grew up in D.C. Can you tell us about your relationship with money growing up? Sure. So I will be very clear. I, as a native Washingtonian, you have to state clearly if you grow up in the suburbs of D.C. or in the city. It's a real thing. So I, my parents both grew up in D.C. proper. And then I lived both in D.C. and in Maryland in the suburbs of D.C. But it's all still,

Starting point is 00:03:37 you know, kind of one ecosystem. And I grew up with my mom, who's a single mom, who worked for the federal government, her entire career, and provided a really solid, you know, stable life for me. I always felt like I had everything I needed, but it was very, it's a, it's an area where you think a lot about who you're going to be and what you're going to be and where you're going to be, and where you, where you sit, you know, kind of politically and academically. Like, I, I spent a lot of time thinking about kind of doing future planning. And that I think was sparked by my mom always insisting that I needed to go, you know, to the best universities and I needed to get a great government job, right?

Starting point is 00:04:30 That's like in D.C. You want to be a contractor or government worker. So that that's kind of the direction that I thought growing up. The government benefits are unparalleled. out. My husband used to work for the VA hospital and just the amount of basically everything you get, minus salary, of course. The salary is okay, but the benefits are huge. So I can see why your mom wanted you to have a government job. What did you settle on? What is your job? So I'd like to say I haven't settled. I try not to ever settle. That's a great answer. I do have the great pleasure of working in

Starting point is 00:05:13 financial planning, I get to work every day with really amazing, amazing human beings who are just navigating, getting financially liberated. And I love it. That sounds like I can work from anywhere job. So before you moved to Tulsa, you had documented your journey online of paying off a large sum of debt. I'd love to go off on a little bit of a tangent here and talk about that. How much debt did you have? How long did it take you to pay off? And how did you acquire that debt? What was that debt comprised of? Yeah. So I'll say I never thought I would work in personal finance at all. It was not something I was aspiring to. I got a lot of student loans because I have two master's degrees and the three bachelor's degrees. I definitely love to learn. And I definitely love to learn.

Starting point is 00:06:13 explore all of the opportunities that are out there. But that landed me in a lot of student loan debt. And it was really paralyzing for a really long time in ways that I didn't notice or fully understand. I, eight years ago, almost, had a baby. And that changed everything, and knowing that I was going to have my son, I wanted to get into the best financial place that I could, knowing that the student loans weren't going anywhere super fast. There were other things I could take care of. And so I got lots of jobs. I worked a full-time job that I really enjoyed.

Starting point is 00:07:08 I got a second job that was really wild. I got to listen to jail conversations and get paid to do it. It was really cool, though. I speak Spanish as well, so I got to listen to Spanish calls in Spanish and then transcribe the calls. And I sold a bunch of stuff. I read the Marie Kondo book around just like, the idea of getting rid of things that don't serve you. And so I paid off somewhere over $30,000 in debt. But yeah, it was just kind of working really hard knowing that the goal was to get at least

Starting point is 00:07:56 credit card debt free before he arrived. He was coming and I needed to be ready. So I even shifted away from living in D.C. and moved back to Maryland. which changed things as well. We're speaking with Allison Irby Vue, who left her life in D.C. and got money to move to Tulsa, Oklahoma. You just heard Allison tell us about her financial situation before her move.

Starting point is 00:08:21 Next up, you'll hear about how living in a smaller city changed her financial situation. But first, we're taking a quick ad break. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch.

Starting point is 00:08:41 It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth,

Starting point is 00:08:58 and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code, What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year.

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Starting point is 00:11:42 Please don't email me that you think I'm doing Tulsa hate. But it's a big difference. Why Tulsa? Well, this community. And honestly, I want to say it was New Year's Day. New Year's Eve, something like that, that I got an email from some travel blog, some, I don't even know which one it is, honestly, but I followed some bloggers and they posted about this opportunity to move to Tulsa for this experience of community and to make $10,000 doing it.

Starting point is 00:12:18 And I thought, huh, I really want community. And I've lived in the D.C. area. If I didn't live internationally, somewhere I lived in D.C. or the surrounding areas. And I know a lot of people, but I still felt like I wasn't in community with people. And that I felt that before the pandemic, but even more so during the pandemic. And so this opportunity to go to a new place where I didn't know people, but could be in an environment where people were seeking community, where other like-minded people and completely different people were seeking to build something. I just thought it would be really powerful to go and see what it was about, especially knowing it was only a year commitment.

Starting point is 00:13:11 Like, what did we have to lose in the midst of a pandemic where all we're doing is sitting at home, doing art, and wandering around in nature? I love that. So you got $10,000 to move from Washington, D.C. to Tulsa, Oklahoma and live there for a year. Yes. I have moved cross country for, not for free. It came out of my pocket. That's awesome. And like you said, it's a one-year commitment. Are you still there? I'm still here. It will be three years in two weeks. Something else that you said, you said, in D.C., I knew a lot of people, but I didn't feel community with them. And I think that's a really important distinction to make. Just because you know a lot of people doesn't mean that's your community. Community is the people that get what you're talking about, that understand where you're coming from, that you don't have to explain the concepts of the community, whatever the community is. And did you find community in Tulsa? I am still finding community. It's really, it's very cool. I would say just, just, Just the idea that these are people who were willing to do this crazy thing I was willing to do says a lot about us collectively in that there are people from all over the country,

Starting point is 00:14:34 people who moved here from other countries, even that are seeking the same. And so it's really helpful to be around such openness. I have met friends that I'll have forever, people that. that feel like family. And if it hasn't done anything else, it's helped me to create a more clear sense of what I want community to feel like. I love that. I love that so much because your community doesn't have to be somebody else's

Starting point is 00:15:14 community. You can create your own community. And I live in Longmont, Colorado, which is the kind of like mecca for five. And I have community. And it is so awesome to be in a place where there are so many people just like you or similar to you. And you don't have to explain anything.

Starting point is 00:15:35 You can get together and you don't have to worry about like small talk. You can you just, if you have this in common, you have other things in common too. And it kind of gets over the hump of awkwardness when you meet somebody new within the community. So I'm so happy that you found your community within Tulsa. And that's, that's really awesome. Can you paint us a picture of your financial situation around the time that you decided to move to Tulsa? Yeah, I was, I don't know, I was earning a little under six figures, which didn't feel like anything in D.C. My rent had just increased. and was going up again, all to not move and really do anything.

Starting point is 00:16:26 And I was really grateful that I had some time in the pandemic to pause child care, because child care in D.C. is like $2,000 a month on top of a rent that's at least $2,000 a month. So that's kind of where I was. Just kind of managing that and living pretty paycheck to paycheck. Getting, you know, having things paid off just meant especially like becoming a mom and then not working five jobs to try to make the extra money. Just being more grounded and being at home meant that I had one job. And so pretty month to month, you know, just kind of keeping up with trying to keep up. I'll say that, just trying to kind of keep up with everything going on around me and not feeling like there was much progress to be made.

Starting point is 00:17:30 And that I moved to the suburbs of Maryland, D.C. suburbs two weeks before my son was born and moved to this community. It was super nice community. and I moved within that community to try to save money. Like, I just kind of kept rotating through different housing options within the community. They'd have, like, a deal. And so I'd move to a new building that they built. But I never felt like, I felt like, oh, I can keep moving to slightly larger units within this apartment community. But I can't buy a house here.

Starting point is 00:18:09 Yeah, that is one of the tradeoffs with these big cities. typically coastal cities is that it is they've got the nightlight, they've got the, you know, population, they've got all of these amazing things. But it comes with a tradeoff. And that is very expensive housing, expensive food, expensive transportation, expensive everything. Getting back to the Tulsa Remote program specifically, what were the qualifications for being accepted into this program? That's a great question. You have to have a remote job. that can cover your expenses. So I'm not sure what the income requirement is,

Starting point is 00:18:52 but there is one for you to get into the program. You have to have an interview. You go through an interview process to share a bit about yourself and how you'll benefit the community and what your interest are. I'm not sure what all of the specifics are, but I knew that I had the income requirements met and met with folks and interviewed, and they took me.

Starting point is 00:19:20 Yay. And what is your housing situation? Did you get a place to rent? Is everybody in this program in kind of the same area? Or did you buy a house? Are you all spread out? So you're required. So this is one of the requirements is that you must live in within the Tulsa limits. So you can't move here and then say, oh, I actually want to buy a farm that's an hour away from Tulsa. So there is an expectation of participation in community. And so there are lots of ways to do it. There are folks who live in apartments downtown. There are people who live in single family homes out in more of a suburbia, kind of suburban feel. When I first moved here, I rented a house, and that's something that was really important

Starting point is 00:20:13 to me. I love the apartment community we were in, but with the pandemic, I knew that I needed to be able to get outside easily and quickly and have room to run for both of us. And so I was able to find a cute home to rent with a ginormous backyard. I thought, we'll see how the first year goes. And then I can make some decisions about buying a home. And six months in, I bought a home. That's awesome. So yeah. So now we live just about a 10 to 12 minute walk to downtown bordering a historic neighborhood here in a brand new single family home. Were there any stipends for moving or housing or anything like that?

Starting point is 00:21:00 So they provide a reimbursement for visiting. There is, when I join the program, the $10,000, they give you the $10,000 over the course of the year that you live here unless you purchase a home. So if you purchase a home and you can share the deed that you have in fact purchased it, they will give you the remaining amount of the $10,000. because then it shows that you are in fact sticking around. So that is an incentive. And they also, we use Slack to connect and they share lots of resources and things like that with the community. But other than that, there's no, I mean, it's a huge incentive to know that if you make

Starting point is 00:21:53 it here and it feels right that you could get that money a lot sooner. So that's really helpful than to do. waiting that entire year to, you know, just get a small chunk every month. Either way is actually great, because now I experienced both. I experienced the, the monthly allocation of the funds as well as the larger sum. And it was really helpful for me that once I bought the house, that all the extra stuff, you know, wanting to buy new furniture for, you know, the patio or wanting to get the kitchen just right, you know, I had extra money to, to navigate that. How much would you estimate, your entire move cost you from Washington, D.C. to Tulsa?

Starting point is 00:22:32 I want to say about 6,000, and that's, you know, paying for pods or those types of things to be to ship. What factors did you take into consideration before the move? January 1st of 2021. My son and I got in my car and we drove from the D.C. area to Tulsa because I wanted to feel what it was like to be here, not just read things. For me, it was important to see what the political climate felt like, the warmth of people or the lack thereof. Very importantly, I wanted to know that there was a Trader Joe's. And I know that sounds really silly, but it actually was something that was on my list. I wanted to know that there were museums and cultural things to to explore and that even if the diversity didn't look like the

Starting point is 00:23:35 diversity where I'm from, which I knew it couldn't, that it would have, that it would feel welcoming and an open enough place for us to share our diversity and to explore others and other cultures. I don't think that it's fair to compare Washington, D.C. diversity to. It is not. That is not fair and I wouldn't dare because I've traveled this country pretty extensively and there's nowhere that I've ever been that is the same level of diverse. Socio-economically diverse, culturally, ethnically, we've got it all in the D.C. area. So I had zero expectation of that, but there is a great deal of diversity here. and there's a huge native population here. There are just people from different backgrounds that live here.

Starting point is 00:24:31 And I wanted to make sure that we could at least experience that cowboy culture. I'd never spent any time indulging in. So just something different that we could continue learning about other people and learning about ourselves through the experience. So what's your favorite part about Tulsa? The life that I want to give my son, where he, has friends he can run around with in the neighborhood. And we don't have to,

Starting point is 00:24:59 everything doesn't have to be a scheduled play date. You know, he gets to have a little bit of the freedoms that I had being, you know, an 80s, 90s kid, kind of free range roaming around. It's really important for me. And I know that we're able to travel the state and the world

Starting point is 00:25:19 in a way that we couldn't do as freely. if we stayed where we were. You know, my son is super active in sports. Sports are expensive. These kids, why are these kids so expensive? But sports, sports are, you know, it costs a lot and to keep up with all of that. I think the pace here, it's so much slower that I can get everywhere and anywhere within 15 minutes is huge.

Starting point is 00:25:46 It just gives me time back to be present to my son in a way that living in the D.C. area, you just don't get my time is worth so much. And time together is so important to me. So having that is worth everything. Time back to be present with your son. That is, I cannot highlight that enough. I cannot underline that and circle it and point arrows to it because that is so, so important. What is the point of having a kid if you're not going to spend any time with them?

Starting point is 00:26:20 If you can't spend any time with them, because you're always a little bit of in the car, commuting to your job, and not able to be present with them. I mean, when I worked in Chicago, I lived in several cities around the Chicago area. And the commute is just awful. And I didn't have kids at the time, but you wake up at 5 o'clock in the morning to get to work by 8. You are back home at the, you know, crack of 7. And then you go to bed and do it all over again.

Starting point is 00:26:51 100%. And I, you know, I shared earlier that my mom provided so much for me and so much stability and financial safety and all of that. But she also worked in Washington, D.C. and we lived in the D.C. suburbs. And she had to leave before I was even out the door for school. She didn't come home until it was time for her to make dinner, you know. And I knew that I wanted something different. I get to drop my son off at school every morning. I pick a, them up from school every day. You know, we get to go on nature walks around our neighborhood after dinner. You know, there's time for play. There's just, you know, even to be able to participate as a homeroom parent and leave work after a call, jump off a call and run to his class, help out and then come back and, you know, jump back in and have that still take, you know, under an hour or two. That's the amount of time it would take just to get to work, you know.

Starting point is 00:27:51 there just is so much flexibility in that. And there's just also room to create what's next, right? And I think that's a big draw for a lot of folks in Tulsa Remote. There are a lot of creatives here. There are a lot of people who are just looking to launch into their next thing who aren't fixed on, you know, it being, there being one narrative. Like, this is my job. I've chosen this one thing. It's these are the various things I'm exploring and there's room here to think about it. and to actually build. And there's a lot of reception. There's a lot of really receptive people and businesses here.

Starting point is 00:28:32 If you have an idea and you want to start something, there are only 20 different incubators. You can engage in and be a part in and growing whatever that next thing is for you. We're going on a quick break. You've heard Alice and talk all about the positives that came from her move from D.C. to Tulsa. When we're back, Allison will discuss some of the drawbacks. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing.

Starting point is 00:29:02 And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pock.

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Starting point is 00:32:17 The best of the best stories now with even more from Hulu. Amazing. Have it all with 3-1 Disney Plus. Welcome back to the show. Well, now that we've established that Tulsa is literally heaven on earth, are there any drawbacks to Tulsa? Anything you miss about Washington, D.C.? Oh, 100%.

Starting point is 00:32:36 Again, like the diversity piece is really important to me, and that's a big struggle for me personally because I grew up with, you know, walking down the street in D.C., you hear five different languages, you know, in a 10-minute time frame. And I miss the diversity of food. Every time I go back, I have to go get Thai food. I have to get Ethiopian food or, like, dig into really specific things. Crabbs. I've talked about getting crabs flown in for Maryland because it's a real thing. When you're from the area, you need your crab fix. And I love my family and my friends. at home and I miss them. But I, it's there. You know, I go back and visit often. It's still the same old stuff, you know. And so I can pick back up. I miss it because I live there my whole life. And so much a part of it is, you know, will always be home. And there's an identity piece that connects me there, right? Like when people ask, oh, so you're from Oklahoma. I'm definitely not an Oklahomaan. I'm definitely still a native Washingtonian. I'm a Maryland girl. I am not my son.

Starting point is 00:33:47 However, is like full on Tulson. He embraces it. But there is that part of me that, you know, will always be a D.C. girl. And that's valid. I have lived everywhere. And being in Chicago is the place that I live the most of my life, but I don't necessarily consider myself from anywhere in particular because I've been every I've lived everywhere I'm from everywhere but the hustle and bustle is not at all something I miss about Chicago yeah they've got great food and Longmont Colorado does not have the diversity of food options that a larger city in Chicago would have but that doesn't mean that I can't find something to eat here I'm sure that's the same with Tulsa oh yeah we I mean we have found so many hidden gems, not just in Tulsa, but we've explored this region a ton.

Starting point is 00:34:43 There are, I mean, my son, I think, has now been to over 30 states. And I only have three left to go before I've hit all 50. And so much of it has happened because we've lived here. I didn't know if we'd live here for just a year. And so, you know, we've explored every corner of Oklahoma and really try to make it count. So, yeah. there are lots of little special unique things about Tulsa. I don't know that if this program had been anywhere else in Oklahoma that I would have considered it, but Tulsa specifically has an energy that drew me in and keeps us here. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm so glad that you went there and discovered that it is something that you would like to do. Do you think you're going to live there

Starting point is 00:35:32 forever? Oh, forever is a really long time, Mindy. For the foreseeable future. Don't think I can say that. I think remain invested in Tulsa for the foreseeable future. And I don't mean invested, financially invested. I mean emotionally invested and financially invested. I think just like deep community investment. I think we've established roots here that are not likely to be broken.

Starting point is 00:36:05 I'm not the kind of person. that likes to lock myself into things. I keep an open, open heart and open mind to, to whatever is out there. But for now, this, this is a place that is meeting our current needs. That's awesome. Yeah, I have moved a lot, like I said, but I finally found the place that I am never going to leave from. And finding a place that you can connect with is so, so important. So is this program still going on? Can people still apply and get the $10,000 housing or $10,000 stipend and all of that? Yes. The community continues to grow. So my understanding, it's the most successful program out there of its kind. And I can totally understand why. Even now that I'm three years in, you know, I'm an alum at this point, OG, Tulsa Remoter. I still benefit greatly from the community.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Like when I'm exploring new options for camps for my son or just want to know what new restaurants have popped up, like everyone is really, really welcoming and really helpful and sharing all their resources. It's such a great tool to have when you are, when you're new to a place, having a built-in community. I think past college, unless you work at some really big company that's like some really cool company, you're just destined to be kind of around the same people all the time. So Tulsa Remote has been a really great way to keep evolving friendships to keep learning about new things and keep digging in deeper to community and parts of community that you might not otherwise

Starting point is 00:37:53 explore. They create weekly opportunities for members to connect and to connect. And to connect with each other and learn more about the city itself. So yeah, I mean, I encourage people all the time to apply. I've gotten folks to move here. And yeah, even one of my best friends, when I said we were moving here, she bought a house in Tulsa because she said, well, if you're moving there, I know it's somewhere to be because you wouldn't just be moving to Oklahoma for no reason. So, you know, community, I want to grow community with the people that are already here, but also continue. you to bring in those who are looking for a similar feeling. Yeah, I love it. Allison, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for your time today. Is there any place that people can connect with you online? Yes. My website is

Starting point is 00:38:46 Allison Irbyvoo.com and my Insta handle is the same. Awesome. This was so much fun to listen to. Thank you so much for your time today. And that wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. She is Alison Irby Voo, and we will link to her website and Instagram in our show notes. And I am Mindy Jensen saying, got to go, Buffalo. Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Hajar Eldas, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. And lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.

Starting point is 00:39:26 No.

BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 522: How to Get PAID to Live in an Affordable City & Fast-Track Financial Freedom

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