BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 6: Fearlessly Paying off Massive Student Debt on $30,000 per Year with Sarah Wilson

Episode Date: February 5, 2018

Are you tired of hearing success stories from folks who are earning $60,000, $80,000, or even $100,000 or more paying off debt and moving toward financial freedom? Where’s the inspiration for the folks out there that do not earn above average incomes? Look no further than today’s guest for that inspiration. Sarah Wilson paid off $33,000 of student loan debt. Why is this a big deal? Because she did it while making less than $30,000 a year! Not even considered a “living wage” in most places, Sarah was able to save more than most people in general EVERY YEAR for several years while she ferociously annihilated her debt. If you want some serious motivation to get out of debt and start building your net worth regardless of salary then this is the show for you. Fair warning: This approach is not for the faint of heart. From the floor of FinCon 2017, we are excited to bring you, Sarah Wilson a.k.a. “YouTube’s Budget Girl.” Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums FinCon How the Debt Snowball Method Works Check the full show notes here: http://biggerpockets.com/moneyshow06 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. Hey, everybody. I'm Scott Trench here with my co-host, Ms. Mindy Jensen. How you doing, Mindy? I am doing really great, Scott. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. It is nice, you know, while FinCon was awesome, it is nice to be out of that really hectic conference there. It's kind of a whirlwind, isn't it? Yes, it is. We've recorded this show live at FinCon, which is a financial conference for Money Media. And I want to give a special thanks to the FinCon Podcast Network for sponsoring our live podcast recording at FinCon

2017. Yeah, it was awesome. And for those of you don't know, FinCon is this big conference of financial bloggers and guys, you know, financial media like us that kind of talk about money and, well, yeah, guys in general, you know, you guys. Guys and girls. Yeah, it's for those of us that write or talk about money on podcasts, on blogs, and in the media. And so it was really a kind have a great chance to meet a lot of our colleagues that write on this stuff as well. Yes, and to keep up with the colleagues that we've met in years past. How many FinConns have you been to, Scott? I've been to two now, and I've made some great friends at these two things. You know, it's a lot of common interests. It's a really, really fun show. That was my fifth FinCon. And I,

as soon as we got back, I booked us tickets for number six next year. Yep. Yep, I remember that. Thank you. Okay, so today we've got a really great show for you. We are interviewing Sarah Wilson, who is YouTube's budget girl. She is a vlogger or video blogger who makes videos on how to pay off debt, live a frugal and fun life, and be financially fearless. Sarah today shares her story of paying off $33,000 of student loan debt in three years. But wait, why does that make her so special? She did it on a salary of $26,000 a year. That is why I wanted to interview Sarah.

That's amazing. There's a lot of bloggers who are talking about how they paid off their student loans while making $200,000 a year. Oh, wow, how'd you do it? Like, that's still impressive that you paid off debt. But to be making, I mean, that's really close to the poverty level, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, this is the reason I was so excited to interview Sarah is because, again, you hear these stories about people paying off debt. But what's behind that is some kind of creative way of earning a lot of extra income or, you know, or a high salary, just a high paying job in general and, you know, living a reasonable lifestyle in order to pay off those things.

Sarah defines hustle. Not everybody can go out and start a business or, you know, earn an extra 50 grand to pay off their debt in a year. You know, Sarah did this on a low income and she is probably in a situation that many Americans are in. This is a position that's made seem hopeless to a lot of people that are attempting to pursue financial freedom, a position where that debt can seem almost insurmountable given your income. Not even pursuing financial freedom, just trying to get out of debt. Yes. And, you know, it can seem hopeless. Like you said, you could just be so overwhelmed by this that you can't even see the light at the end of the tunnel.

And Sarah shares a lot of really great tips for cutting back expenses. She didn't have the opportunity. There's two ways to pay off debt. You cut off your expenses, you cut back on your expenses, or you increase your income. She didn't have a way to really increase her income. So she cut back expenses. She did actually increase her income, but like by delivering pizzas. It's not like she went from $26,000 to $500,000.

Now she's doing these small things. I don't want to belittle what she was doing, but they are unskilled labor. anybody can deliver pizza. Anybody can... Well, that's what makes it so impressive, is these is just pure hustle. She hustled her way out of this large amount of debt. Yes.

And I just love her story. So let's let her tell her story. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to Bigger Pockets Money. How you doing? I'm doing great, Minnie. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming on.

Sarah, you have a great story here about how you have paid off a lot of debt on a not that high income. And I think that's a problem that a lot of people have to struggle with and might see as like an overwhelming challenge. So how did you get into that position in the first place? And what made you decide to pay that off? Absolutely. I took out student loans.

All of my debt was student loans. I went to college. I got a degree in communications and journalism. And I thought I would be making a lot more than journalists make because apparently I never Googled that. And so I got out of school. I was making $26,000 a year. This is a couple of years out of school even, and I realized I looked up I had $33,000 worth of debt and that I was screwed. Yeah. What I like about your story is that you weren't making a ton of money. It's great that Brandon Turner paid off $11 million in debt when he was making $46 million.

When you're making $1,000, $300,000 a year, it's so great that you're out of debt. But it's not, I mean, when you're making $26,000 a year, I've been there. And that's rent and food. And kind of that's the end of your money. And to have extra to pay off an enormous amount of student loan in relation to your annual salary is really impressive. So I want to know how you did that. Well, a lot of people don't like the basic answer I give, which is that you have to make some sacrifices. You didn't just continue living your life normally? I did not. And I didn't keep shopping all the time.

I didn't eat out. And honestly, you just graduated from college. You're not doing that much or you think you're not. doing that much of it anyway, but you're frittering away so much of your money. You're just kind of like letting it get away from you. And you really have to rein it in completely and become a master of your money to meet a goal like that where you're trying to pay off something that's so much bigger than your annual income. So where were you living right out of college? I was in Columbus, Mississippi, and I actually lost my job. The newspaper was doing layoffs I was working at.

And so suddenly I'm sitting here without a job. I'm on unemployment. And I realize I have all this debt, which I had been ignoring. I'd been deferring. And I was terrified. Scared doesn't even cover it. I was absolutely terrified because I was like, this wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have any debt if I just had to pay my normal bills.

But I was just in such a bad situation. So I decided that when I got a new job and I did, that I was going to do whatever it took to get out of debt so that if that ever happened again, I wouldn't have this giant burden on me. So what were your monthly expenses and what was your debt service that you had to pay to get current back on everything once you got that new job? What was the baseline you needed to maintain in terms of spending in order to survive? Gotcha. It was pretty close. I moved to Hammond, Louisiana. I got a job. I was making $26,000 a year before taxes. I was paying about $400 a month in rent, a couple hundred dollars a month in food. And my student loan bill was about $350 at the time.

and so when I actually started my debt journey, I was barely making all of my bills and that minimum student loan payment. So one of the things that I hear from so many people when they're trying to get out of debt is I have so much debt anyway. Why does it matter that I'm paying this off? Why does it, I'm never going to be able to pay this off. It's like so overwhelming. How do you get over that hump? Like what's a really good tip for people to keep in mind when they're going down this journey? Well, I would say that a lot of people probably don't realize that that minimum payment that they're making might not even be covering the interest that's accruing, which means you're making a payment every month and your loans aren't getting any smaller.

A lot of people are on, you know, an income-based plan and they're literally only paying a fraction of the interest. So you can't just pay the minimum payment if you want to get anywhere with this. You have to make some major cuts, maybe increase your income somehow. I delivered pizzas at one point. I did a lot of things. We can talk about that more if you like, but you have to increase the income. You have to cut your expenses.

You have to get mad because when I was faced with those numbers of seeing how I'm paying a lot of money, $350 is a lot of money on $26,000 a year. Right. That's like half your income almost. Yeah. I was taking home like $1,200 a month after tax. So then $350 is what? A third of your income.

That was a huge chunk. But I was actually looking at my life. loans on the website every month and they weren't going down. No, the number stays the same or even gets a little bit bigger every month. And that can be so disheartening or you can get furious and you can decide to do whatever it takes to make that number go down. And you can either do that by cutting your current expenses, adding additional income somehow or fleeing the country. I wouldn't recommend the third. I love that. That's the concept of getting furious about your finances. That is the first time I've heard that and I love it. I think it's fantastic. Can you tell us?

about the sacrifices you made on the spending front? And then what did you do? What were some of the things you tried out in this period where you were furiously attempting to? There were so many second jobs. They have to go hand in hand, the cutting your expenses and the adding additional income. So essentially what I ended up doing

was not doing any more of my hobbies that cost money. Instead, my hobbies became making money. So I did secret shopping for like fast food restaurants online. And that would be my meal, which would also cut grocery budget down a little bit. So what is secret shopping for people who aren't familiar with this concept? Oh, right. There are companies out there that will ask you or hire you to go into restaurant, stores, et cetera,

and essentially evaluate their services, make sure they're doing what the companies are hiring them to do, make sure the bathrooms are clean, make sure they're giving you, like, X amount of chicken tenders when you order this meal. And you can just look for those online. any service that asks you to pay them to go secret shopping is scam. Oh, that's a good tip. Yeah, secret shopping companies. Market Force is an excellent one. There are a dozen wonderful ones out there.

There are a lot of roundups online of legitimate secret shopping companies. Often they will have you pay for like the meal or a certain amount of stuff. It's usually under $10 and they will reimburse you for that and then pay you on top of it. And you just have to fill out all the information they ask you. You know, often they'll ask you like time how long it took you to get your order. You know, very simple things, and that kind of became my hobby. Honestly, I ate so much raisin canes during one of the years I was getting out of debt because they kept hiring me to go back there and do that.

I haven't eaten it since. So what about the expense side? You mean, was there much to cut there or was it really renting and eating? I didn't think that there was a lot to cut, but when you're that mad, you figure it out. Like, I started meal planning instead of going to the grocery store multiple times a week. start going once I'd shop these sales that were happening. I'd actually make a meal plan so I wouldn't be wasting any of my food and letting that money go to waste. I didn't really have a restaurant budget for three years. Instead, I invited friends over and I'd feed them baked potatoes. And I promise you,

that was way more fun than like going out to a bar. We'd watch a movie on a laptop or a TV, depending on whose house we were at. It was so much more fun than going out to a restaurant and spending so much money on that. You know, we play like cards against humanity. I had my friendships develop more deeply during that time when I was actively not spending and people didn't even ask me to go out. They were just like, we would love to do something this weekend. We know you're not going to spend money for it.

Let's go to somebody's house. You know what? That's really important is to have friends who understand and want to encourage you in your journey because if you're being tempted at every turn, eventually your willpower is going to break down, you're going to get sick of missing out on everything, you're going to just go and blow it. So people who are constantly tempting you and inviting you out, if you tell them, hey, stop asking me out and they still do, maybe they're not really your friend. Maybe they're not really looking out for your best interests. Oh, absolutely. There were certainly relationships

like never became deeper because they only wanted to go out for lunch every week and I have brownbacker. And that's fine. That just made me friends that had the same mindset that I did. that ended up us helping each other. They started maybe adopting more of a frugal mindset, too, asking me about how to help with their budgets, help with their student loan debt. So it turned into a really good thing. Some of my best memories from when I was living down in Hammond, Louisiana,

were just hanging out in my tiny apartment with my dog. And this was a 500-square-foot apartment. We'd crammed 12, 13 people in there. But you know what? A bag of potatoes is like $3. Everyone brings something. Someone brings a tub of butter. Someone brings some bacon bits.

I love it. I think it's fantastic. You're doing all this stuff. You're crushing it on both sides, the income and the expense side in order to attack this debt. When did you notice that you're making progress? How was your mental state as you were moving through these phases? At first, it's disheartening. Because when you sit down and you look at the money situation, because a lot of people don't entirely see their money situation. Like, you kind of ignore it. You know, I didn't realize that I'd had $33,000 worth of debt right at first. And you do the math to see how much it's going to, how long it's going to take you. original projections where it would take me about six years to get out of debt, which just seemed like no transit. I mean, that's longer than I was in college. And so you just have to make the commitment and then celebrate as you go along. So one of the things that I did, which was key to me being happy and kind of sticking to the program is every $5,000 that I paid off, I would set aside maybe $50,100 to do something really fun.

And that has helped a lot of my viewers to kind of like get through the sloth. Because sometimes it does get heavy. Sometimes you just want to go buy new shoes. You just want to go to the theme park. It can be hard. But if you make that situation like a milestone, it can fuel you to get to that milestone faster. Yeah, that's one of the biggest things

that people have such a hard time with is just, oh, I'm going to be deprived for so long. Scott gave a talk at work about his book set for life. And one of the first comments was, oh, wait, I have to give up everything when I'm in my 20s. This is my time to party. Well, no, you don't have to give up everything. Small tweaks if you're not in debt and larger tweaks if you are can really help you out.

And the bonuses, the rewards are really motivating. And that's, I'm really glad you said that, like, what's $50? What percentage of $5,000 is $50? Like 1%. Yeah, 1%. Yeah, 1%. That $50 compounded over time, yeah, is going to be a lot of money. But that reward, it boosts you and gets you back in.

It does. And you have no idea how much I enjoyed that, like, one manicure. I got a year. Yeah. It's like, oh, I feel so pampered. Totally understand that. And then when you get out of debt, you really fully enjoy when you get to treat yourself and you get to pamper yourself more often because you put the work in.

Yeah. You put the work in. You're not taking for granted any of the little things anymore, any of the little extravagance. It's like I still get so excited buying wine and good cheese and good chocolate because I did like the Walmart cheese for three years. Yeah, the little things really are much more special when you don't get them all the time. I feel like I appreciate life more now. That is such a good statement.

You appreciate life more because you had to work for it. So I know that you are a Dave Ramsey fan. Big day. And I think Dave Ramsey's awesome, but I have one difference with him in that his debt snowball approach. I want to know your opinion of the debt snowball versus. is the debt avalanche? The debt snowball is you line up all of your debts, smallest, the largest, and then you pay them off in that order. And the reason that Dave Ramsey recommends that is because it's a momentum thing. If you start with a $26,000 debt and you have to get through that before

you get to roll your snowball, as in take the payment that you were paying to that first debt and attribute it to the second until you start, until you've just knocked out all of them, that's going to take a really long time. Now, my situation, I had a $26,000 federal student loan and a $4,000 private student loan. The private student loan had less of an interest percentage. But for me, being able to knock out that $4,000 loan first was such a victory.

He recommends it because it's a mental thing. Once you can start eliminating those debts and then putting all that money, you were putting out the debt you just paid off to the next debt, It's really a momentum thing. It keeps you going. It keeps you going. Now, I understand the debt avalanche, you pay off your largest interest first.

So over the long time, you saved some money. Now, I think I did the math at one time, and it was about $300 that I lost out on paying off the small student loan first and then the big student loan. I'm okay with that. You know, I never did the math with it. I have done just looking at the basic numbers and, oh, okay, you're paying 18% here while you're paying off this smaller 10% loan. Why would you do that? Throw the money at the 18%. I like kind of a combination where you line them up highest to lowest interest rate and then you line them up lowest to highest debt and you throw money at both of them. So you're getting the win of the small little, you know, $4,000 debt while

still attacking the higher interest rate and then like go back and forth or pay them down at the same time. So you're paying less interest. But I've never done the math on that to see if that actually I was curious. Maybe I should do some research on that. People, people asked me, like, how much did you lose by doing the debt snowball versus the debt? I am a lunge? And so I did the math, and I was like, you know what, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with losing $300 to get that win about a year in, where I was just like, I'm done with this one debt. I never have to pay it again in my life. So do you think either way, you just have to commit to it? You just have to decide that you are going to get out of debt. And I think kind of arguing over, you know,

know, a few percentage numbers might slow your momentum a little. So do it either way. Just do it. I have a three-part question. So the first part is, how long it take you to pay off that first $4,000 debt? And then how long did it take you to pay off the rest of the debt after that? The $4,000 debt took about a year. And then the $26,000 debt took about two years in a couple months. So you were accelerating during this process. Oh, so much. Yeah, this entire time I was upping my income. I was getting more mad. I found new jobs during this. I moved to a different state twice for better jobs. So I was increasing my income both on the side gig and my regular professional job. I was still figuring out new ways every single day to be more frugal and save money.

And it started going so much faster. It was really fun to watch, especially towards the end. And was your credit score improving during this process as well? Yeah. Even though I wasn't using credit at all, I had an excellent credit score because the only debt that I had was student loans and I was paying it off so fast. Awesome. And then the last part of my question is, what advantages did you see in terms of opportunities to get more jobs, that kind of stuff as a result of your debt, if any? I think because I was so focused on something and I was just so driven, that sort of dribbled

for three and a half years was paying off my debt. And it's just working harder and working harder. every opportunity that came up that could get me there faster. I was like, let's do it. So I started, you know, looking for another job. I became the editor of a newspaper in me in Arkansas, which was not an ideal place to live. It was kind of about 5,000 people. And I lived there for a year and a half because the salary was bigger. It was a low cost of living. And also there was nothing to spend money on there. And all I had to do was do YouTube videos and make money that way. I just, the more driven you are, the more mad I got it dead, the more I worked towards that,

that the more my career advanced, the better I got kind of at my craft because I was working so hard towards this one specific thing. What's life like after the debt? What are your financial goals now? And how do you kind of approach money now that you've conquered your major goal here that took you so long? Well, when I had debt, it felt like I was barely keeping my head above water. I was kind of like bobbing under the surface, gasping for it.

And now I feel like I'm flying. And it's so kitsy, it's so kooky that that's what I feel like. I was putting at one point more than half of my income at debt that I get to keep all of it now still just gives me the craziest thrill every month that I log into my bank accounts. And I'm like, I get to keep all that. Every single month, I get to move money from my checkings to my savings instead of from my checkings to someone else. It's fantastic. I'm obviously saving money now.

Since I'm a Dave Ramsey fan, I'm on Baby Step 3, which is saving up a three to six month, fully funded emergency fund. So if a situation ever happens again, like I were to lose a job, which is what started me off on this, I would be financially set for three to six months while I found a new one. And then I will be in investing and traveling and living. So awesome. What area of the world are you living in? I am now in College Station, Texas. I've balked around quite a bit during my debt-free journey. I went from Mississippi to Louisiana to Arkansas, and now I'm in Texas.

Do you plan to stay in Texas? Yes, I love Texas. I would love to stay here. I knew this last move. I was so close to being debt-free. I was trying to figure out where I wanted to be longer term, where I kind of wanted to set up a real life. If another opportunity comes knocking, maybe,

but I specifically came to Texas because I wanted to live here. Are you still in journalism now? I'm now a communication specialist for Texas A&M, so I'm kind of an advocate journalist. I write articles about the college on behalf of the college. So I no longer work for a newspaper or a media outlet. that I work for a university and I promote the things that they do. And what are your career aspirations now down the line?

Are you happy doing that for a while? I do like it. I like it a lot. I enjoy reporting on the really cool things that, you know, the next generation of really amazing people is doing. It's one of my favorite things is to kind of tell their stories and to talk about these developments that are coming from today's youth because they're doing amazing things. Yeah, they are.

Rapid Fire, we're going to do our famous four questions. Scott. All right. What is your favorite finance book? Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. It's the Bible, essentially. It's not the Bible, but it's the finance Bible for me. That is a really great book. Dave does an excellent job of taking you from negative all the way to zero. Yeah, he gave me the guidelines for getting out of debt, and then I feel like to talk about kind of the day-to-day how to save, but I used his framework. And it sounded like he gave you some great motivation as well. So much, so much. Yeah, he's awesome. What was your biggest money mistake?

student loans. If I could go back, I would not take out more student loans than I needed to live off of. I went to college and I didn't have enough money to pay for it. And that's one thing. But I took out extra money to go shopping and to eat Taco Bell. And I was paying for it for years. God, like, I just feel like shaking every 18 year old. I see like, don't do it. What is the best piece of advice for people who are just starting out that you have? no one is going to fix your finances for you. No one's going to come in and just fix your money situation. You have to do it.

So you have to make a budget and you actually have to make a plan for your money because no one's going to manage it for you. Amen and hallelujah. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? What did the beaver say when he ran into the wall? What? Damn. Thank you.

Scott's going to tell that joke at the office next week like a thousand times. That was a damn good one. Oh my God. All right. Where can people find out more about you, Sarah? I can be found on YouTube.com slash Budget Girl,

where I do weekly videos on frugal living and becoming financially fearless. I have done that for three and a half years so you can walk with me as I paid off all $33,000 worth of debt.

I'm also on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Snapchat at Go Budget Girl. And we'll link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you.

Thank you. Sarah, this was awesome. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day today. We're recording at FinCon, which is a financial media conference out in Dallas. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us. I've really enjoyed your interview. Thank you so much for having me, guys. Thank you so much. This was awesome. Wow, that was awesome. What a story. I am going to go home and I am going to have a baked potato bar. That is such a great tip. So cheap. I mean, how much is a bag of potatoes? Two bucks? Some butter, some bacon, some cheese.

You put some broccoli on there. I mean, you can still have a healthy meal. It doesn't cost anything and everybody gets to make their own meal. I've got two kids and they're both so picky. One of them's a vegetarian. One of them who only eats bacon, Bacon-Tarian. And this is a great, they both love baked potatoes.

I love that tip. That's easily my most favorite tip from her out of this whole show. And now I kind of feel a little bad about some of my hobbies that might cost a little bit of money. You know, it's almost, you know, Sarah, Sarah has taken this to such an extraordinary level with her hustle and her, you know, how she spends her free time to kind of optimize for this, that, you know, it's just incredible. It's just, it's just so, so fantastic and inspiring.

Yes. I really like how she got her friends on board, too. And when you're 26 years old, none of your friends have money either. eat in have a everybody bring something to my house party drink in play board games play you know watch a movie in your house there's still a lot of really good movies here you go if you're looking for a movie to watch with your friends on a cheap night watch the princess bride what's your favorite movie scott i like the princess bride you know i've been watching recently my my girlfriend's last name is hornblower so so so people yeah so don't know making fun no making fun of her name but so i've been

watching the Horatio Hornblower series, which is about this English Navy officer. And they're awesome. I'm so excited about them. I've been enjoying them so much. But they're free. They're on YouTube. I didn't know her last name was Hornblower. Hey, what's what do you laugh at? I was caught off guard. I am not miss Hornblower. I am not laughing at your name. And Horatio hornblower was the first thing that came into my mind when you said that after I was like, wait, what's her last name? You've been dating her for like two years. I had no idea that was her last name.

Yep. So maybe that's fine. But yeah, so I've been watching those. I'm really into those right now. So I want to say that those are my favorite movies right now. Okay. Great. And those are inexpensive.

Having a Netflix account is what, nine bucks a month or something, 15 bucks a month? Maybe I'm dating myself because it's been a while since I think it's like $11 a month now. Is it? Okay. So that, you know what?

If you're paying down debt and you still want something to do, $11 isn't a huge amount. I mean, that's the cost of one movie. Yeah, I mean, and regardless of what your hobbies are, really the theme that I think Sarah brought to the table today was get furious, get committed, you know, get angry about that debt and attack it and do whatever you need to do to get out of that. And once you are free of that, I mean, how great a feeling is that?

How great is it to go back to zero and have that out and then be able to begin building real wealth for yourself throughout the rest of your life. I have to say I am debt-free. And when I married my husband, he still had student loan debt and we're older. This is back when you had to use a check to pay it off, writing that last check to pay off the last payment of the student loan, even if you're paying it online, I recommend writing a check. That is the happiest check you will ever write.

I'm so glad I'm done with you. and just a huge weight lifts off your shoulders. You can feel it lifting off. Is it worth the sacrifice? Is it worth the hustle? Absolutely. Get rid of that debt. Kill it.

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what Sarah does next and what she does now that she's in the positive and how she attacks her personal finances. So hopefully we'll have her back on the show in a year or two. Oh, that'd be a great idea. That's a great idea. I'd love to have her back and see what she's doing. all right before we go let we want to ask for a favor from you guys if you like the show please go out and give us a rating a review on iTunes or whatever other medium that you're

listening to this podcast on those reviews mean so much to our egos and we really appreciate them no but seriously they help show they help share the the show with other people they encourage new people to listen to the show so if you like what you hear and you want to share it and you want to help other people find the show that's the way to do it give us a review there on iTunes or the other mediums that you're listening to the show on. You can also share us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. What are the other ones? I don't know.

Are there any other ones? Is there Pinterest? Can you share on Pinterest? Oh, you can share us on Pinterest. Ah, pin us. Pin us. There you go, Scott. That's great.

Okay. Four bigger pockets money. This is Mindy Jensen. Over and out.