BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 61: The Repeatable Path to Financial Independence with Reshawn & Rob from Learn Hustle Grow

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

Reshawn and Rob got married nine years ago, joining their lives, families and bank accounts. Premarital counseling revealed two different views on money—and they knew if they wanted to stay married, they needed to get themselves on the same page.... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 61. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop.

Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pock. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love that, said no one ever.

Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow, every small business owner ends up doing it. Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a right-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting.

You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D-com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member FDIC.

Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Liener Stronger for Fitness, The Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being.

What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more. All accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible, where we interview Rishan and Rob from Learn Hustle Grow. But once you've earned a certain income, you have lifestyle creep and you build a lifestyle around that income, makes it very difficult to pull out and now start and it entrepreneurally and make

nothing. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast.

How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Ms. Mindy Janssen. How you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I'm doing fantastic. It's another beautiful day in Colorado, like always. I'm super excited for today's show. I feel like I say that all the time.

I'm super excited, but I am. Like, I'm always super excited. But I really, really, really love Rishon and Rob's story about figuring out financial independence. They're in their 40s. They have quit their corporate jobs, but they still have jobs. They just want to do these passion projects now.

And spoiler alert, they're getting ready to travel forever around the world, which just sounds like super awesome fun. Yeah, and what I think is so great about this episode is both of them come from low-income backgrounds. Both of them had children really early in their lives, right? In their adult lives. Both of them accumulate a lot of.

of debt. And then over the course of a 20-year career, they were able to bake some solid incomes, pay off that debt, and then really go after it. And what I believe is a really repeatable fashion for a lot of people. You know, if they can do it, a lot of people can do it, right? You know, what I think is so amazing about the story, as I'm listening to them tell their story, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but I'm thinking of myself, you know what, there's nothing special about this story. There's nothing like unrepeatable for most people about this story. And what it really does is cement the fact that, yes, this is doable. Yes, this is this whole like financial independence thing is doable. It is repeatable. And it's not that hard.

You follow these steps. Don't spend as much as you make. Save. It's, you know what? It's like that richest man in Babylon book. Yeah. I mean, it's 2019. This is the American dream. This is how to do it, right? Pay off your debts. Pay off your house. Build a modest, amount of cash flow, travel the world and do whatever the heck you want. They're going to travel the world while being location independent entrepreneurs. The worst case scenario, they're going to be fine and continue to have their portfolio grow and sustain itself. Best case scenario, they're going to have a tremendous amount of fun and make a ton of money doing it. Yeah. At the near the end of the show, Rob says, anybody can do this. It just takes discipline.

And that's why nobody does it because it just takes discipline. This is not a difficult thing. And, you know, but what people do is they ask me that I'm sure they ask you, oh, how did you do it? Well, here's what I did. Oh. And you can watch their eyes kind of glaze over. What they want to hear is, well, I walked up to this wall and I pushed a button and money just rained down on me and now I'm financially independent. And that's not how it is. You want to know how it is?

Listen to Rob and Rishan's story because that's how you do it. Rishon and Rob, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. How's it going today? Fantastic. Thanks for having us. I'm so excited to talk to you. I haven't seen you since FinCon. And I was so happy that I got to meet you at FinCon. FinCon was an awesome event. This was our first time and we loved it. Yeah, it's a great, great event. I make sure that I have babysitters for that event.

And then every other event is just bonus. You got to prioritize. Yes, yes. That is absolutely the best event. So why don't you walk us through where your story with money begin? Okay, I guess I'll do that. So nine years ago, we had joined our lives and our money. We started out when we got married using the Dave Ramsey model because we were just trying to figure things out. And we got married in our 30s and we just didn't want to fight, you know, a lot. And just getting into a new marriage. So we're paying off our debt. We started paying off our debt. And then we started investing in real estate. And we basically paid down mostly. all of our debt and we decided to start looking to our entrepreneurial dreams. We both were working day jobs, by the way. And then eventually I became a real estate agent while working my day job. And Rishon became a travel agent. And this year, we both just quit our day jobs.

Yay. So it sounds like you combined your finances right at the very beginning. I like that you said we joined our lives and our money. And I have a friend Derek Olson who wrote a book called One Bed, One Bank account and I totally subscribe to this, but not everybody does. Can you share a little bit about why you decided to share your finances together or combine them together? So initially, you know, 2.30 somethings, both independent and living our own lives financially, it was hard to figure out exactly how we were going to manage money. We had a convoluted plan before we got married, right? We were that couple that looked at credit reports before we got engaged. You might not I think it's romantic, but it was super important for us based on where we were in our lives

to know what the other person came to the table with. So we'd already looked at credit reports and knew that there were some things we needed to do there. So we just thought we'd have a percentages model. We'd had this very convoluted model where you do this percentage of your income and I'll do this percentage of my income. And we'll pay these bills and these bills. And it was a mess, honestly, Mindy and Scott. We would have been divorced had we stuck with that.

So immediately after we got married, we had a destination wedding in Mexico. Now, dance of joy. Yay. So we came home and the roof needed to be repaired or actually needed to be replaced. There was a storm. So we got hit by that. That was one of our big expenses. There were just a couple of things that just snowballed right away.

And we were looking at each other. Who's going to pay for this? Right. Exactly. How is this going to happen based on our plan that we had before. This was not going to work out. So Mr. Wonderful Hero, that's what I call my husband. He actually...

Well, don't you use like 30% of the roof, and he used as 70%. Exactly. Exactly. How do you do that? Yeah, he was like, you know, we need to look at combining our finances and understanding what that would take. Oh, man. So we learned about Dave Ramsey.

We got the total money makeover audio book. We were married April 26th, and our finances were joined by June 1st. But we would not have been able to do it without Dave, honestly. Dave is fabulous. I love Dave. What was your kind of like savings rate and what were you kind of doing with your money after you joined finances? What was your kind of approach there? So when we first got married, neither of us were saving. No.

Anything. Well, outside of retirement accounts. Let me rephrase that. We were both saving in our 401 case. I was almost death free with the exception of with my car note, which I paid off a few months into the marriage. And of course, the mortgage on. that initial home. And then Babe had his car loan and some student loans. So we were really more focused on paying off the debt than we were saving at that point. We were just very fortunate that

we had taken into consideration college. So we both came to the table with one kid each, we're a blended family, two boys, now 23 and 18, soon to be 19, but we said, are we going to have a baby. You got to kind of talk about that, right? We had to talk about it quickly because when we got married, I was 36 and already, you know, high risk. So we decided not to after visiting with some friends who had a small child. No shade on the kids, but at that point in our lives, we realized we just couldn't handle it the same way we would have been had we been younger. Yeah. So I know, guys, I was looking for a, a wife that was going to guarantee me a baby, by the way.

So that changed after I realized I didn't have a tolerance anymore for a break in 35. It's really key to discuss expectations in your marriage is what we want. I want to go back to that. It's really key to discuss expectations in your marriage. How much fun is it to go through a divorce? Zero percent fun. I am assuming I'm not divorced.

But it would really not be awesome. So, you know, you guys said, you said before, You discussed credit reports. That's awesome. We were in a 30s. We felt like we had to prepare, you know. And I was already married before. So, and it didn't work out.

We were divorced in a year. And then, you know, my 20s, right? And then after that, I was like, I got to do this. I didn't know if I was going to get married again. But I was like, if I do, we got to do this right. So we just, I just got all the information I could. And she was with it. And, oh.

Honestly, that was a big help, right? If I got to give you single girls a tip, marry a divorce guy. Okay. He came with some knowledge. You guys said you weren't saving, but you're paying off debt. But that is saving, right? You know, you're taking a percentage of your earned income and you're not spending it. You're applying that to build your net worth, in this case, paying off getting back to zero from, or at least getting some of your debts down to zero. What percentage your income would you say was going towards that in some capacity building your net worth or savings or paying down debt? So you mean like the 401K plus paying off the bills?

Yeah, exactly. 529. And the college show, yeah. So that's where I was going with the having a kid thing. When we decided not to have a child, we decided to take the cost of daycare and put it into a 529, which is about $1,000 a month. So we knew that number was specific.

So that $12,000 a year, plus we were maxing out our 401 case, which was at 18 each. Yep, 18, 15, right? Yeah. 185. So if we did the numbers there, so that's 50 grand. Which is that.

That's 50 grand. Yeah, we never really have. So 50 grand between the 401Ks and the 529, maybe that's been 20% of our income. Yeah. Oh, that's saving. That was just savings. That was not paying off the debt. And then maybe another thousand a month towards debt. And everything then the rest of them.

Until we saved that off. So another 12,000. Yeah, so maybe 25 to 30% of our income is going towards that. Yeah, we were high income earners. You're high, yeah, you're very, very high income earners. earners and that was allowing you to apply that. So what was the kind of, when you were accumulating this debt, maybe, maybe the story starts, maybe even before the marriage. How did you kind of accumulate some of this debt that you brought into the marriage in terms of that, you know,

since you were earning these high incomes? So honestly, so I was a professional salesperson and I didn't start off very high earning, but I did it for over 20 years. And my debt accumulated from undergraduate. I graduated from college with a few thousand. and dollars in debt, maybe about 11,000 or so. And then I graduated seven months pregnant. So I came out of college with our oldest. So immediately acquired debt from, you know, becoming a single mom. So all the bills that come along with that, you don't get to owe on daycare.

They want their money now. So once you pay that, then you probably accumulate some debt in other areas like credit cards and the like. I also built up some credit card debt just from being a college student who wasn't. wasn't wise enough to turn down the free credit cards, the offers with the candy bars and the T-shirts and things like that. I asked my son, do they still let them do that on campus? And he said they don't do it as much now,

but it was a big thing, you know, 20 years ago when I was in college. So that's where mine came from. And mine, so I was in the Marines. And all the Marines, we love nice cars and, you know, trying to show off for the ladies. And so I bought a new car. I was running up credit card debt, constantly dating and stuff. And then I had a son.

And I was living in California, too, by the way. That San Diego, that in itself was a killer. And then, like I said, I had the school loans. I had about, what, 28,000 in school loans after I got my IT degree. So just, yeah, all that, the car, the kid, the school loans. And I had never, you know, it's kind of, it's my fault because, you know, just as soon as I started making any kind of money, then I was out spending. I had never had any money. And I was just excited and getting credit cards.

He was making your ring, yeah. So what was that moment where you changed, where you decided to change that pattern of spending and begin paying off the debt? Was that because your income shot up suddenly? Or was that because you decided to go and approach your money differently? Or how did that kind of work? Well, so before I met Rishon, what happened was I got divorced. That's what changed. I got divorced.

Everything was in my name. The majority of it was in my name. And I was in the whole deep, guys. Really, really, really deep. And I said, man, how am I ever going to? And I was getting denied for everything at that. point. I said, something's got to change. So I was, you know, I was really hustling, try to pay off all the separate cards and separate debt or whatever. And I had like several charge offs and all.

I just, you know, when I actually looked back and paid attention to everything, got my credit reports that I had never done before, got all three, you know, from like annual credit report.com and all that. And then after that, I started, I got to make a change and get myself together. And then in the midst of it, then I met her. So, okay. So you, you, you'd already made the shift to begin paying all these debts down, I assume, rebuilding credit score. Dave Ramsey's mixed in there somehow. I imagine until I met her in here. Oh, okay.

And then is there an acceleration point once you guys meet and you get working towards it? Okay. Yes. And that spurred by Dave Ramsey to some degree or alignment on that kind of thinking? Or how is that kind of work? So we both came, like I said, we both came to the table, a spender and a saver. I'm pointing. So at that point, I'd already discovered just as a single mom,

you know, debt wasn't going to be acceptable as far as being able to manage our lifestyle just for me and my son. I relocated from Chicago to Dallas, which gave us a much lower cost of living. That was a big help as far as on my side of things as far as getting my stuff paid off sooner. He relocated from Virginia to Dallas, so neither one of us are Texas natives. And once we met and had to combine our own money, that's when Dave Ramsey kicked in and we had a bigger plan. We understood that there was a bigger picture beyond just managing day-to-day balances. Okay. Did you cut back on going out or anything like that? Or did you change any of your lifestyle besides that move?

Or does that move to Dallas kind of the big catalyst there? What are some ways you kind of cut back on spending in order to increase that savings rate, I guess? I was really amped up when I first started listening to the audiobook. And we were like really on board. And we still went out and stuff. We just kind of made sure we watched everything. did and we kind of, you know, said, oh, okay, we'll go out like twice a month or whatever, and we'll use the bulk of our money to pay down whatever bill we started. We had a whole list

of them. We started out with small cards and kind of went, you know, just to get a couple wins, like he says, a couple wins and pay off a card just like, I don't know, $500 and then eventually build up to the, you know, the bigger bills. And we just kind of did that way. And we kind of held back on just spending. Yeah. So we actually created a budget. Yeah, we did. We actually created a budget after going through day ramps, total money makeover. And we got together every month to talk about the budget. And we still do. And then we got together every quarter to talk about bonuses,

being as professional salespersons, I received quarterly bonuses, which is why it seemed as though we didn't spend at, you know, while we had a smaller percentage because the quarterly bonuses, you never knew what they were going to be. Yep. Right?

And so we were able to purchase our cars and cash and things like that. You know, once we realized that, that we didn't want to have long-term debt. But all that came from starting with the budget and creating a plan to pay off the debt we had over a period of time. Got it. So how long did it take you to pay off all that debt? So we paid off the student.

Were your student loans the last thing we paid off? Before we paid off the house. We just paid off the house this year. But the last debt we paid off for your student loans. Were we in this house at that time? When we had the student loans? Yeah, or was it before we were. I think else before.

So four years. Four years to pay off all the debt. And at that time, we're still saving in our retirement. We're still saving in the 529s. Yeah. Got it. You've mentioned 529 a couple of times. Can you talk a little bit about that?

So there are two vehicles for college savings. One of which, and the 529, there's no limit on how much you can invest in it. So we chose the 529 college savings because it's not only was it limitless as far as what we could put in, it could also be reassigned to any family member. So once the oldest one's done and he is, he just graduated, we can now assign the funds in that 529 to our youngest to use when he's ready to go to college. And we also get a tax write-off, depending, of course, on your income and whether or not you qualify for that, but you get a tax deduction for that as well. Awesome. Once you started paying off these debts, what was your kind of investment philosophy?

How were you applying the funds that you were saving then? So we were focused on paying off our first home because we were on Dave's plan. But Rob had the vision of being a real estate mogul. That was his vision. Listen to those picket pocket. Yeah, he was listening to your pocket as long before I had made who did it, like five years. And so he wanted to be real estate mogul.

And I thought, well, let's, you know, worry about this house. Well, we've gone out to start looking for a real estate investment. We were going to use our emergency fund. We'd actually accumulated six months in our emergency fund, six months' expenses. And now it was time to go shop for a rental property. That's not how Dave advises it. This is what we decided to do. We paid off our mortgage to the point where it was only 70,000 left on the primary residence that we had at the time.

We went shopping for a new place. and interest rates were down, but the prices that started to go up in our market. That's when the interest rates were like 3% guys. Yeah, so... So what year is this? What year? That was 2013.

We were looking into it like when the market crashed, when the market crashed and everybody was terrified, 2009, 2010, and we waited, and then as it started kind of rising back up, we're like, oh, we got to get in, you know, several houses. No, when he says we were looking at it in 2010, he means he was looking at that in 2000.

Let's be clear. I was not yet on board with this vision. I was like, there's more houses that are, foreclosed are on our block. And I said, uh-huh, the poor people. I was, you know, look, like, what's his thing?

What's the day? Buffett says, jump on it when there's blood in the streets, and that's when I saw blood in the streets, guys. Yeah. And what I saw was fear. So in 2013, we went out to look and prices

had gone up in the market. And I said, oh, wow, these prices have gone up so much. Maybe what we need to do is actually look for our next primary residence instead. Based on what I see with these interest rates, we could get a great rate on a bigger house and get the nicer home. Because when we got married,

he moved into the home that I already owned. Which initially he wasn't comfortable with the idea, but we paid to have, oh, that's one of the things we did. We upgraded the home. We had it freshly painted. We perched the closets. We did the kitchen and the baths. All that to try to make the existing house seem new.

Right? for couples who are making that decision as to whether or not they should buy a house when they get married. We just upgraded the one we had and we stayed there for four years. Went out and looked and found our new house, the house that we just paid off now. We found that house and we turned our first primary residence into our first rental. That's how we got into the real estate thing. That was the beginning of our real estate investing. Okay, let's dive into that.

So when you decided to keep that first home as a rental, what did that look like? Did you do anything to the special do that? did you analyze it as if you're purchasing a rental property, just kind of just stick a tenant in there? So honestly, it was a dream because we had just sent all those upgrades two years prior, but at least we got to live in there with some of the upgrades, right? A lot of times when people get their house ready to become a rental, they do all this fixing up and then they move out of it. So we got to appreciate it for a couple years. The market was really good for tenants in that space.

We've lived in, it was a Class A neighborhood. The elementary and middle school are walking distance. our son walked to both of those. And then he ran cross-country. So he kind of jogged to high school when he was late for the bus. So it was a great location, right? You got a great school,

great public school system and all that good stuff. So we just found a property manager and put it out there. We only owe 50% of the mortgage at that time. So it was cash flowing like crazy. It was like 150 when she bought it. Down to 70,000. We paid on it for 10 years, right?

Yeah. Five years with her. And then when I moved in five more years. Yeah. And then it was down to 70. and we refinanced it and at like, what, 3%, right? With a VA refinance package. So being that we're both veterans, at the time,

there was a refinance package with no closing costs. That's awesome. So this is awesome. This is a huge leverage point. It sounds like at this point you hadn't accumulated a lot of liquidity with which to invest, right? So you take your house, which you've been building liquidity on, you fix it up, you reappraised it at a higher valuation,

you cash out refi, and now you have a, a chunk of change that you can go out and invest. Actually, we didn't cash out, Scott. You didn't cash out. No. We refived that's a 70 grand. And we just took the higher cash full. I see.

We didn't know about cash out refived. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Either way, though, the point here is, though, you turned a significant chunk of your net worth into an income producing asset, right? Which is now capable of sustaining more financial freedom.

Right. A certain extent, a certain extent. And a lot of people are unwilling to do. that, right? But that's kind of a, I think a major step. If you're thinking about doing this, you know, and you're well into your career and you've got a house redeploying that equity, you know, and I usually think that a house doesn't really count toward financial freedom, unless you're willing to do what you guys did and kind of go into that. So what happens next? So we took, so like said, that house was cash flowing like crazy once we refied it at a 15

year with a 3% interest rate. It was only $70,000 and the house rented for a 16 a month. So we got great cash from. What we did was we kind of reinvested that in the real estate account so that we would have money that would build up for repairs and things like that if we needed it. And also, then we purchased our new primary residence. Which I didn't want to do, by the way, because that was double the price. You know, $300,000. I wanted to stick at the $150 and just get a small, he's small rentals, right? But it worked out. Yeah, exactly. He didn't watch it. New house. It was down with making me happy. It was what it really boiled down to. So we purchased our larger home on another 15-year mortgage. Is your current home? Yes. The home we were right now.

Lower interest rate, 2.85 percent. Yep. Something like that. And then we did 10 percent down. Did 10 percent down. And we just decided it was time to buy our next rental. So we moved into this house in 2013. And then the same year, do we buy another rental? do we wait to 2014? I think it was next year. We bought another rental, maybe the next year, because we, yes, because we kept our primary in 2014, we went shopping for another rental. Over that period of time, after we purchased this home and between purchasing our next rental, we replenished our quote-unquote emergency fund. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And every time the emergency fund reached six months, we were out to go shop for a new rental property. Yeah, you're using the term

real estate fund and emergency fund, very interchangeably. They are. For us, they were interchangeable. So 20% down was the requirement for a single-family home that we were purchasing at the time. And we were looking for houses that were at $150. Yeah, yeah. Right?

So we needed $30,000. Yeah. So we would save this money, go shopping for the next rental. We were amped after that first month. And we were able to do that successfully four times before the market changed. Yes, in our area. Yeah. The market changed.

The prices went on. up and I was like, babe, it's time to get your real estate license. We were paying too much money in realtor feeds and everything else based on our goals. Now, what you said was, you know what? It'd be great if one of us got our license. You know that name, Dr. Scott? One of us that isn't me. Exactly. Well, Scott, you sold. Oh, maybe Mindy knows. Scott's not there, right? Right, but Mindy's a realtor. And Scott was in sales, right? He's some time in sales before you came. So you know if you're a professional salesperson,

you got your hands full with everything you're doing in your corporate gig. There really isn't a lot of time to go out and sell something else on the side. Well, Rob, was your profession performance-based? No, no, no. I was an IT guy for the hospital. My schedule was pretty set. I've been doing it for a long time. Yeah, so I think that is an important point, right?

is if your work is performance-based and there's just total upside, then you can theoretically pour in lots of extra work and that's going to afford you. But if you're just like earning a straight salary and the next raise is going to be 10% next year versus 7% depending on performance, that is just simply not as an effective way lever to pull. And putting in all that extra effort, you know, oh, I think my parents would be mortified to hear me saying this. But that's not a little bit of extra salary, you know, boosts, It just isn't going to drive you towards your goal of financial freedom anytime soon. And that's why I got the, you know, I studied at home and got the books and got my license.

Yeah. So, yeah, one of us should get our license. That's what we did do to do, too, Scott. I was like, hey, if I kill it this year, we can bring home a big check. Yeah, yeah. I love how you're saying we. It is all we goes into the same account. So people, yeah.

Yeah. So he was at this time already listening to bigger pockets and was pushing me to listen to it. But I was struggling, even though we were already investing in real estate, I was struggling to listen to the podcast because my day, I worked for some really great companies. And which is why we were so fortunate to have the incomes that we had. But with those incomes, they're very demanding. So you're giving blood, sweat, and tears to these jobs in order to accomplish your goals. and I've been a salesperson for over 20 years, so I am driven to be successful, which means that I just had very little downtime or time to myself

in order to listen to the podcast. I went through a company transition. I left one company and moved to another in 2017, and that's when I found the time to listen to bigger pockets. I was in a hotel the night before I had client meetings, and I said, let me listen to this podcast. asked my husband keeps talking about.

And I started to text him, oh my God. Oh my God. This is amazing. We can do this stuff. This cash outreach thing. If you heard about this. I was like,

we could so amp up our real estate business if we started to, you know, look at some of these principles. And kind of from there, everything changed. Like I said, we'd already been investing for four years at that point.

And it still made a huge difference. So how many rentals do you have now? So as part of the strategy we've learned from Bigger Pockets and Brandon and Josh and you guys, we actually converted one of our single family homes to a, we did a 1031 exchange and converted to a small six-unit multi-family out of state. Awesome. Yeah, so we completed that. So we recognized that we needed to focus on the number of doors versus the number of units.

That was a change strategy. We have four in our primary residence. Yeah, we have four in our primary residence. We sold one and went to this 10.301 exchange and did a six unit out of state. Then we did a cash out refy on our first property, which at this point was paid off. Yeah. This is a single family home? Yes.

That you guys lived in previously. Yes. It has gone up in value significantly. It has appreciated it. cash out refi for the original 150 and paid off our current residents. Not every one would agree. We know. We know. We know. But they're like, you can use that money to buy more properties, but we just wanted the opportunity to go down the entrepreneur route without the stress of having our primary mortgage. So that's really interesting. So you guys

in your mind separate debt on your primary residence versus in your rental properties. Yes. And you chose you chose to pay off your primary residence and treat the other one like an investment, right? That's fascinating to me. Well, our rental properties have never been vacant outside of a month, maybe two on that first property. So we have been very fortunate. We have a fund to cover vacancies if we need it. We do have that money in an account, but they cash flow and they pay for a property manager. And we, the mortgages always pay. Right next to schools, no, but they're never empty. So since we haven't had any of those issues, we thought, well, we don't have to worry about those as much as we do our own residence. Right. It's like just the biggest liability,

you know? We were just like coming out of pocket with that big chunk of money every month. We were like, ah, man, you know. But you're still coming out with that same amount of money just as coming out of the rental board. It's coming out of the business now. Yes, it's coming out of a business account. Right. Okay, I see. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make

progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focus on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockets at Monarch.com for half off

your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking.

And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer.

Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to Indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring.

Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest registered agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S.

with over 1,500 corporate guides, who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic.

They never sell your data, and all services are handled in-house, because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free, and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered agent.com slash money free. In communities across Canada,

hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields, like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca.

Okay, so, well, there's this issue. argument on bigger pockets, the website, biggerpockets.com. Should I pay off my mortgage or should I not? I am in these should I not pay off my mortgage because I have such a low interest rate. But I can sleep at night with having this mortgage. I mean, my mortgage is $1,100 a month because I bought this cheap house that I then fixed up and made big. But I think it's really important to point out that you guys are approaching this in a systematic way. It doesn't sound like you're over leveraging yourself, even on the rental properties, your mortgage, or I'm sorry, your rent coming in more than pays all the expenses

and the mortgage of the property. And I think that's really important to point out because a lot of people will hear this kind of story and say, oh, I can just mortgage myself to the hilt. Well, what happens if that school burns down or whatever? And now nobody wants to live in your area and you're stuck with all these mortgages. It sounds like you can still foot those bills for a long time

before you would have to really scramble. And I think that that's really important to point out that, you know, you're doing this intentionally. And look, if you want to pay off your mortgage, if that helps you sleep at night, if that helps you pursue entrepreneurship, then go for it. Anybody who tells you different is wrong. You tell them I said so. So how much cash flow is your portfolio producing? Is it enough to live off of at this point? No, it's not enough to live off of. Our mortgage for this primary residence was $2,600 a month because we had a 15-year mortgage. on a $300,000 home. That's $2,600 less that we have to worry about.

Yeah, covering each month. Right. That's what I mean. And we call it cash flow. No, I think that's great. I think that's great. And that's coming out now, and you refinanced, I assume, with a 30-year mortgage

that had a lesser effect on your cash flow from your rental, or was that also 15? Okay. The move was designed to create to free up a lot of cash flow. Right. And you guys are now leveraging that cash flow to make a lifestyle change, right? You've left your jobs, right?

Right. So you walk us through that process. How did you feel comfortable with that? Was that a combination of cash flow, savings, and low expenses? Yes. So all of that. So after over 20 years of being in sales, you can certainly get burnt out.

If you've done it for any amount of time, I know people who only hung in there for five years or less before they made career changes if they started out in sales. So after over 20 years, I wanted a career change, but I did not want it to impact our family's lifestyle to the extent that we have to leave our home or sell our home. That's always possible. There are people in the fire movement that are, you know, selling everything.

We weren't at that point in our 40s. We're comfortable where we are and wanted to be able to stay where we are but still makes change. So paying off the house allowed us to do that. So as a travel agent, you actually don't make any money until after the person takes a trip. suggest a hint. So, you know, you want to become a travel agent. There's no upfront money. Makes it sound like it's hard to get in and then hard to leave.

Exactly. So, I mean, I enjoy doing it. I have an opportunity to help people, you know, playing the vacations of their dreams. I get a lot of travel perks and we like to travel. So that was a big driver. That was a big driver. Right.

That was a big driver for us. What we looked at was, you know, what are we working forward? now that the oldest one is out of college and the youngest one is still trying to figure out what he wants to do. So now why would I stay in this job that's very stressful, physically, you know, stress-wise, taxing? Why would I stay now? What is the motivation to stay? And that was it. Once we figured out that we could get our bills low, because the rest of our bills are about $500 a month. It's real next to nothing. Yeah, we haven't had car notes in eight

years. You spend 500. So wait, hold on, your total expenses to fund your lifestyle or what? No, that's for our household expenses. Oh, household. Okay. For our utility bills and car insurance and things of that nature, it's about 500 a month. And then if you look at our grocery bill and restaurant is the biggest expenses. That's the biggest things now. Right. But you can do that because you live almost for free. Right. And you get around almost for free. Yeah. So that's probably between groceries and eating out, we're still between $3 and $400 a month. Okay.

You know, there are plenty of people who do it for less. Plenty people do it for more. Yeah. It's $800 a month. Are you living expensive? Like $1,000. Yeah, $5,000. That's $12,000 a year.

Yes. This is brand new to us, though, guys. It's just this year, right? But we've been calculating like, what? I mean, why it changed from here to here. So it doesn't include any vacation or anything. Right. And that's what we're working on now. That's just to live. If we didn't go anywhere, that's what it would cause us to stay.

Well, but I think that's important. Travel is extra. If something happens, you know, catastrophic, you could work at what, Starbucks and health insurance and pay all your bills. I mean, maybe you don't get a lot of travel out of it, but you can still pay all your bills. I love that your expenses are less than $1,000 a month. No, and let me add something to that. because there's somebody from Texas who's going to listen to this and go, they have high property taxes. And we do.

We do. Our property taxes are about $8,000 a year. So add that $8,000 to $12,000, we're more like $20,000. It's about $2,000 a month in expenses, which does seem like a minimum threshold that, yeah, you can relate to. Like, you know, you probably need to do to live a baseline there. And it sounds like you guys are able to do that very happily. Yes.

Yeah. Now we're looking at the fun stuff. well thank you for clarifying that because yes if you had not somebody would have called you out on that so thank you for addressing that in advance i can't promise that nobody's going to call you out anyway so do you consider yourself financially dependent where are you on the i path in your mind oh yeah oh yeah so we have the for us it was just the ability to leave our corporate jobs to pursue the careers that we wanted right i've always wanted to do something more entrepreneurial but once you've earned a certain income. You have lifestyle creep and you build a lifestyle around that income. Makes it very difficult

to pull out and now start and it entrepreneurally and make nothing. So the real estate investments we've made and the properties that we've sold even have helped us tremendously. And so you asked this earlier what we have left and what we have now in real estate investments. We have two single families and a six unit apartment complex. So we're eight doors. We went from four doors to eight doors in one year. Oh, awesome. That was awesome, right? The goal is 15.

Yeah. The goal is 15. You know what? I like the modest goal because there on the real estate podcast I have co-hosted or guest hosted, I guess is the right way to say that a couple of times. And on the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Investing podcast, which is available wherever podcasts are, people there seem to have this, most people have this, like, giant goal. I want to own a thousand doors.

I don't want to own a thousand. I think 10 sounds great. 15, totally doable. You're not going to go crazy, unless you get terrible tenants. You're not going to go crazy with 15 doors, whereas 1,000 doors just seems so overwhelming. And I think a lot of people who hear that who maybe aren't just so crazy about real estate like all of us are. Yeah. Might be like, oh, forget it.

I can't do real estate if I don't have a thousand doors and I don't want a thousand doors. You can do real estate with one door. You can do real estate right now. You guys have eight doors. and it allows you to live the life that you want. Right. Yes. And in the meantime, I'm still a real estate agent.

So that's still pretty decent money. Yeah, that's not, are you an active agent? That's like you do that with other people. Yeah, so I was working in IT and I worked at a hospital, and I was selling houses to the nurses. So by mistake. Not by mistake. He talks about real estate to everyone.

I do. Anybody who will listen. He is telling the real estate story. Especially if they want to be an investor. I'm, I'm, I'm your investor real estate agent. They're like, wait me, have you invested? Well, as a matter of fact, I have. I have this amount of houses.

What? You must be rich. No, I'm not rich, but I can help you get there. You would never believe he had never sold anything before. Yeah, with that kind of lines, when I was reading over your bio, I thought he was the salesperson. That's funny. So to kind of recap your whole story here, it sounds like you start off in this position of debt.

And then the big fundamental thing is you have a budget and you start sticking that budget and applying everything in a systematic way that is growing net worth. You don't call it saving, but it is saving. You contribute to your 401k. You're maxing out your 529 plan. You're paying off debt. You get to zero. And then you redeploy your biggest asset, which is the home equity, right?

And turn that into an investment property. Now it's producing cash flow. You buy another house, but you continue with that savings rate. And then you use that to buy more and more real estate. And within a couple short years, you now have all of this flexibility and freedom with your jobs and can kind of go around the world, live whatever you want, do take the real estate agent job and start this entrepreneurial journey because of these kind of a few simple levers that you've tweaked in your financial position.

We couldn't believe it. We couldn't believe that it was possible. Yep. Yeah. Podcast. What's not repeatable? What part of that? Like, suppose I'm, suppose I'm listening to this and I'm earning a good income and I'm starting

your supposition. Why couldn't I do what you've done? You know what? I'm going to jump in here and I'm going to answer or make a comment at least and say, you know, as I was listening to their story, I'm like, this isn't rocket science. This isn't, you know, some crazy set of circumstances that will never happen again. This is so, you know, easy isn't the right word. I know there's people.

Doable. How about that? Worth it. People who have like crippling medical debt and, you know, made really bad decisions their whole life and whatever. But this isn't that hard. It just takes discipline, guys. Yeah. It just takes discipline.

That is an excellent quote. I was saying in teamwork. Yeah. If we hadn't both been on board, it would have made it a lot more difficult. Yes, because we know people. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to get both people on board. Well, I will also say I've picked up that you guys have had some disagreements about how you want to. kind of approach some of the major decisions.

Like, you know, paying off the home or whatever. And what you've done, I think that's really great is you said, hey, I'm going to back off my position and I'm going to go and do what you want. And do it, you know, the other side wants. And that, you know, hey, maybe there's different ways you could have got about it. But that's what worked for you guys. And that's gotten the result. And it's within a five-year period, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're married. If they're married people without disagreements, they don't even like each other. you got to have some fire in the relationship but there are no just agreements they're on the road to divorce and the truth is right you know the first the very first one you probably picked up on was I didn't want to buy the $300,000 house

and move into it but you know I was thinking in back of my mind I'm still going to get a rental out of this because if this doesn't if I don't agree to this then we're not going to move and if we don't move then I'm not going to get my first rental and she's not going to see how great this whole situation it was a win-win it's going to be all right Love it. Anything else we should ask about your journey or any other topics you want to cover before we move on to the famous floor? Well, what are we going to do next, right?

Yeah. Yes. There you go. What's next? Right now, we decided we're going to take a sabbatical and we're going to take a year off. So we quit our day jobs. Rishon, she's still going to do the travel agency thing because she can do it anywhere. Location independent. Yeah. I'm going to pause on the real estate because I won't be able to do it while I'm here. we are going to, we're going to Argentina and then we're going to

travel a few months, come back home for a couple weeks, we're going to just travel and then we're going to do it and hit all the different continents for the whole year of 2019. Well, do you know anybody that can help you plan those kinds of trips? I think there's one to five. Travel perks, travel perks.

That's awesome. That sounds fantastic. That's the ultimate travel hack. It's been 20 years. learning all the ins and outs. Yeah, becoming a travel age. We knew we were doing when she got into that. So we're like, wait a minute. So a few weeks ago on episode 55, we interviewed Christy and Bryce from Millennial Revolution.

And I actually had a chance to meet them in person a few months ago, or in October, I guess. And they said, I asked them, how do you deal with all these different languages? Because you can't speak everything. And she said, we use duolingo. Yes. I'm fabulous. I'm learning that right now.

Yeah, it is fabulous for learning, you know, the key phrases for travel and, you know, do you speak English in whatever language they have. So I wanted to give you that tip, but you already know, it's so never mind. They had some great tips as well for health insurance, which if you're going to be traveling in other countries,

you may find a lot of that to be very surprisingly, like a very pleasant surprise on how to handle that and the costs of all that kind of stuff. Okay, we're going to have to go back and listen to So 55. Yeah. You can find that at biggerpockets.com slash money show 5.5. Cool.

Apparently, health insurance is a huge deal if you're trying to earn a huge income and leave. But if you don't have a high income, there's a lot of really good options. And then if you want to travel the world, man, they were getting away with murder on that. Honestly, what we have discovered is the less money you make, the better deal you get on health insurance. We're going to do that right now. We're trying to figure out what we're going to do as far as that after leaving corporate right now. Yeah.

We've had to make, we have to pay more now, but we'll pay less later because our income will go down so much in 2019. Well, once you're traveling, if you, they have this plan that'll cover you. If you're in the United States less than six months, you can get a plan for the United States. If you're going to be, you know, all over the, and I think they were paying something like $20 a month for their insurance outside of the U.S. Wow. So, yeah, definitely go back and give that episode a listen. There's lots of travel tips in there. Definitely have to check it out.

Okay. It is now time for the famous four questions. These are the same four questions and one command that we ask of all of our guests. What is your favorite finance book? And you guys can each answer separately. Ooh. Okay. Yeah, so many.

Do you go first? No. Set for life by Scott Traynard. I love that book. A plug, yeah. We actually have, we gave that one to our 23-year-old. He's reading it right now. He's been that one right now.

Thank you. Yeah. It went to your 18-year-old too. Right? So we've actually told everybody about Dave Ramsey's total money makeover. We've given that one away actually in the audiobook. We think that's a great place to start if you're in the beginning. Love the millionaire, the millionaire next door and the millionaire real estate investor.

I thought we only get one. Oh. Sorry, yes. You read a lot of books. Those are all great books, yeah. When you're researching financial independence, we've gone through quite a few books. Yeah, every month we had Audubon.

Yeah, if I had to choose one, wow, it would probably be the millionaire real estate investor. Nice. That one lit a fire under me years ago. Love it. Yeah, that's an excellent one. That's by... You're in my top three, though.

All right, I'll take it. Seriously, man. I appreciate it. Thank you. Well, what was your biggest money, Jake. Ooh, I know Mines. Go for it.

Mine's was blowing my GI Bill money on living expenses. Instead of paying for college out of the military, they were sending me cash money a check, right? Which I think is a bad idea, personally. But as that money came in, I didn't use it on my actual school expenses. I just used it for living in San Diego because it was so expensive to live there. I should have... Fall and out. I should have lived more modest

and then paid off the debt and I've been done, I've been doing this way ahead of the game, at least five or ten years ahead of the game. And that's why... If I could go back and tell my young self, don't do it, man. Start saving immediately

and start investing immediately. And five or ten years. Yeah. Wow. You know what? That's something we haven't really covered yet on this show, Scott, is the opportunity cost concept. At least five, yeah.

Yeah. Was living large in San Diego worth five years? I got rants on your face, by the way. We turned off the video for us. It was good. It was good. But now that I'm older and I'm 43, I would give it up. I would.

Because I believe, I think in the end, my opinion, in the end, all the fun stuff come. The earlier you get done with this, and the earlier you're out of debt, and the earlier you invest, the more fun you can have earlier. Like, our kids think we're super young. They're like, you guys are way too young

to be traveling the world and doing this in your 40s, right? And I imagine if we could have been in our 30s, right? Our son's best friend tells us that we were going through a midlife crisis. They think everybody think we're crazy. Everybody's used to the status quo, right? Go to work, work, work, work,

to your 60-ththousand-in, you know. But no, no, no, no, no, no. So biggest money mistake trying to get us back on track. Sorry, guys. Biggest money mistake for me, I'm sure was the credit cards in college. Becoming a mom early helped me to avoid a lot of money mistakes, honestly. So, you know, people advise you not to become a young parent. Outside of getting married to my husband, becoming my son's mom,

single best decision I have ever, ever made. gosh I know I'm a mom you need to have kids so whatever foolish mistakes I would have made

were cut off quickly because now I'm somebody's mom so not only did I have to get my life together financially you've got to do everything different when you become somebody's mom if you want to do it right

so credit cards, worst mistake, mom thing, best thing ever done. Awesome. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Stop creating debt immediately. Don't spend anything. Pay off the stuff that you have and try to save so you can invest. That's just my opinion.

The earlier you invest, the better your life will be sooner. research, be open to learning something new. The sales environment is full of type A personalities, right? And that means oftentimes you're probably not the most open to learning new things, which is why it may have taken me a little time to listening to the podcast. So the biggest lesson I've learned is just be open to learning new things and receiving new information. because without all of the testimonials that were shared via podcasts like Bigger Pockets, Journey to Launch, Paula Pants, afford anything, without all of the people who are willing to share with us via those vehicles,

we would certainly not have had the courage to explore and to get to where we are today, much faster than what we originally planned. Love it. Yeah, we didn't really cover that a ton today, but it sounds like that was a very integral part of your journey as well. It was just the relentless consumption of information, or at least it began a part of your journey. And we hear that every single time from every single story. There's no change, right?

It's always the change and the rapid acceleration toward financial freedom or a significant financial result always comes from that relentless accumulation of knowledge. That's how we came up with Learn, Hustle Grow. Because essentially that's what we were doing, accumulating as much information and knowledge as we could from the vehicles that were available. Can't believe this stuff is free, man. I mean, it's like, it's an amazing gift from God.

Feel free to send us a check. That's Mindy. But no, it's all free. S-E-N. All right. Well, what's your favorite joke to tell at parties? Oh, man. Joke.

So we don't have jokes, but we are. observers. So if we have something funny to say it's an observation that we've made about the environment, and maybe some of the people in it, so probably not good to ask us about jokes.

I don't know. Okay, I have a joke. Rob, do you have a joke? I don't. Okay. How many apples grow on a tree? I don't know. How many? Hundreds. All of them.

Oh, man. Did you hear about the restaurant on the moon? No. Great food, no atmosphere. Oh, Mindy. Mindy with the jokes today. I love it. I was going to say, I've listened before.

I usually stats got all the jokes. You're doing great. Okay. Hey, keep going. Want to hear a joke about paper? Yes. Never mind. It's terrible.

That was good. I love it. I have a pointless pencil joke, but we'll tell that some other time. Okay. Oh, God. Pointless, that's a lot. Okay. Now it's time for the command.

Tell us where people can find out more about you. So we have a blog, learnhustlegrow.com. They can also follow us on Instagram at LearnHustleGrow. And we are in the process of starting a YouTube channel. So we haven't gotten it launched yet, but we're working on it. Even though we hate being on video. Learnhustlegrow.com and learn hustle grow on Instagram.

Rishan and Rob, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate your time. And I hope you have a lovely trip to Argentina and the other five continents. Rest of the world. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for having us on. Yeah. It's very great. All right. That was Rishon and Rob from. Learn, hustle, grow. Mindy, what do you think? Oh, I love their story. I love that their story is not exciting. It's not, you know, ooh, and then I won the lottery, and then I got a zebra,

and then I got, like, they don't have all that. What they have is this, I don't want to say boring, because it's definitely not boring. They have real estate rentals. And it's, I love real estate and it's exciting. But they have a very clear path to their financial independence. And it is pay off my debt. Save some money. Save some more money. Become financially independent. Oh, and invest. There's invest in there too. But, I mean, it's not hard. No, I agree.

And, you know, I'm a bit of a video gamer, right? So if anyone out there plays video games, they'll relate to this. But in some of these games, you need to like maximize your guy. You know, you get really powerful and do everything, every single thing perfectly. And then go out and kind of figure things out, right? and that term for theirs is called mid-maxing right and that's what a lot of people we hear about on the show here do they'll literally just go all out cut everything out and then invest in the most optimal way that they possibly can with a few very minor variations on it and go after it right and they didn't do that they didn't do that they made solid decisions one after the other they made trade-offs based on what the other partner wanted in terms of what they want in their life and they got not there, and they're in a golden situation and extremely happy. And it didn't really make that big a difference because they got the few big things right

with their housing choice, with saving their income and with focusing on producing some sustainable cash flow. You know, like, why do we make it so much harder than it has to be with some of these other episodes? I don't know. You know, I love, I love talking about every time. But, man, their path just, again, seems so repeatable for so many people. Yeah, it's not rocket science.

And you know what? I like what you said. I like that you brought up the fact that they had compromises. If you go into a marriage thinking, I'm going to get my way all the time, you are so wrong. It's just not how that works. And they talked about money, which is huge. They talked about money before they got married. They make mutually beneficial decisions.

And, you know, they talk about their money. Did you hear them say that they? have a money date every month still, even after they've got all their finances fixed. I mean, it's so repeatable. Well, yeah, should we get out of here, Mindy? We should. From episode 61 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, this is Scott Trench and Mindy Jensen, and we are out the door, Dinosaur.