BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 64: Scholarships and Other Ways to Pay for College with Zach Gautier

Episode Date: March 18, 2019

Zach Gautier oversees academic and college counseling at a Denver-area high school. He reached out to us, and proposed a show to share creative ways to fund college tuition—and blew us away with the depth of his knowledge! This episode is for anyone who has children who have not yet graduated from college. And if you know someone else who can benefit from this information, please share it with them, too! This show includes tips that apply to kids of every age, from elementary school to middle school to high school students. We cover multiple ways to reduce higher education costs, such as transfer credits, AP courses, and CLEP tests, along with early college programs and dual credit options.   We also discuss work-based scholarships and military options, as well as preparation for high school that starts in grade school. Zach shares his advice on taking the ACTs or SATs and also ways to decide which one to take (and whether to retake if you get a low score). This episode can help shave tens of thousands of dollars off your child’s college expenses! In This Episode We Cover: How Zach paid for college The CLEP test Systematic approach to transform college options The best financial choices that somebody can make Interventions that are very effective for your child to learn and figure out their love for school On helicopter parenting Things parents need to do when their children are pre-high school and high school age to save for college 529 plans as the biggest avenue that needs to be considered Brandon Turner's approach for his child college education 3 ways to fund college Dual credit program How much does SAT and ACT prep cost How to apply scholarships Two college batches when it comes their application review process His perspective on brand name college Things that people should be looking for in a school Ways to save money on college application process Other avenues to approach prior to entering college to get excess funding What is a loan and a grant And SO much more! Links from the Show Paychecks & Balances Khan Academy BiggerPockets Money Podcast 56: Change Your Personal Finances (& Your Millennial Money Mindset) with Paychecks & Balances Fastweb Cappex Scholarships.com BigFuture - The College Board Scholly BiggerPockets Money Podcast 22: How to Pay Off 6-Figure Student Loans While Pursuing Financial Independence with Travis Hornsby BiggerPockets Forums Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 64 with Zach Gattier from Triple Fit College Counseling. Really helping your child figure out school and really figure out a love for school early on. It sounds like a basic thing and it doesn't necessarily sound like financial advice, but the rewards that it reaps four or six years later as a student's looking to college, it really is profound. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcasts. How's it going to everybody?

I'm Scott Trench, and I'm here with my co-host, Ms. Minnie Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? I am doing fantastic, Scott. I am so excited for today's show. I know I say this every week, But this one, I really, really am excited for this guest. Outside of Richard Marcus from Paychecks and Balances, this is the show I was the most looking forward to recording. And the one that I am most excited to share with our listeners. Today's guest, like you said, is Zach Gattier from Triple Fit College Counseling. He reached out to me a couple of months ago and he wanted to share some tips for financing college. And when he reached out to me, he gave me just a list of tips that I'd never heard before.

And granted, I haven't been in college since you were a baby. Scott, but my oldest is 12, and it hasn't come up before, but she is 12. So it's going to come up and it's going to come up in a big way. And I don't have a 529 plan. I know I'm a terrible financial independence seeker because I don't have all these things optimized. So this show was hugely helpful for me. And it's going to be hugely helpful for anybody who has kids who have not yet graduated from college. It's going to be most helpful for people in a similar situation to where I am, where their kids haven't started high school or are just starting high school. But there's tips in here for people with kids in high school and college as well.

This is the episode to bookmark and listen to with your kids before they start high school. It's the episode to listen to with your kids when they're in high school. And it's the episode to share with your kids, even if they're already in college. Yeah, I love it. I mean, one of the things to note before you listen to the episode is that this is all about the college plan. process and figuring out how to set yourself up for success to, one, get into a good college, two, get a potential merit scholarship, and then three, fund college as efficiently as possible from there and on a bunch of tips and tricks about that. So if that's not applicable to you,

this may be one that you can pass over and come back next week or listen to and share with somebody who it is going to be relevant to, but we want to give you fair warning that this is a very specific audience. And if you're in your 20s and not going to have kids, this may not be applicable to you. So share with somebody. Don't just say don't listen, Scott. Share with somebody that this could work with. Well, of course, it's a great episode. It's going to provide a lot of value, right? I don't have kids. It's a lot of very valuable to me because when I do have kids, then I will apply this learning. Yeah, this was fabulous. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make

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Banking services are provided by lead bank member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several

Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful is its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Dr. Zach Gautier from Triple Fit College Consulting. Welcome to the Bigger Puckets Money podcast. How's it going today?

Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Like I said in the intro, I am super excited to bring this guest on today because Zach reached out to me to, it's been 100 years since you reached out, but you sent me this note about how to pay for college for people who aren't actually in college yet and even not in high school yet in some cases. And this was just so interesting. I've got a 12 year old, so I do have to start thinking about paying for college. Why don't we start off with how you paid for college, Zach? Absolutely. For some reason, the way that my mind's wired, I've just always, I hate wasting time. And so as I started looking at my own undergraduate and what I wanted to do, started finding a couple of unique ways to expedite that process. And so went through, like many kids do today, ended up taking some AP courses. But more importantly, I ended up doing a semester on a college campus before I went to actual college as part of my high school. And so ended up going into undergrad carrying like 25. credits into college. And then I found out about this kind of magical thing called a clep test where you can just take a test and they give you college credit. And I'm like, I like that more than studying for classes. And so ended up klepping out of like another 36 hours of my undergrad. And so because of that, ended up graduating a year early and could have really graduated in two and a half years, but stretched it into three. And just started to realize that by having

levels of efficiency and how you approach undergraduate, you can save an incredible amount of money. And so that really, I think, kind of birthed that in me of that desire. And then over the last 15 years, I've been worked in high schools, worked with families and have just been able to walk alongside families as they've been doing, you know, going through their own journey and trying to share some of this information with them so that hopefully they can dive into the things that they really want to learn about very quickly. And hopefully that that's a benefit for them, both in time and in money. That's awesome.

And we're very lucky to have you because you've devoted so much of your career and time and energy and thought and passion into helping people make college more affordable and prepare themselves for that, right? Would you mind starting off? What are some of the first things you'd be thinking about if your child is, you know, maybe Britt just coming into high school or about to enter in there, you know, to start this planning process? Yeah, absolutely.

So part of the reason that I reached out to Mindy in the first place is just because I think a lot of times, families, hear these kind of unicorn-type stories where this student dedicates a year of their life, they find a million dollars through all these scholarships, and that transforms their life. And while that is an option and that is an approach that people can take and realize benefit from it, the reality is I think that there's a more systematic approach that can start to really transform college options. And one of those biggest factors that can happen is to make effective choices in students elementary and middle school years so that then when they

get into high school, they're really putting themselves in the best position possible. So a couple of thoughts that I have is if a student is before high school age, the reality is that the money that's given and the scholarships that are given to students, the vast majority of that money is really dictated on two things, a student's reading and English ability and then their math skills. And so if we think about that and kind of reverse engineer where we want a student to be at 18 and when they're receiving financial aid, all of that starts in really early elementary. And so it sounds so simple, but one of the best financial choices that somebody can make is choosing to take time to read with their student. And when they're with them and being able to birth in them

this desire for lifelong learning and being able to really engage in school, because the student that is successful in those early years. Statistically, it shows they're going to be in a really strong place and in a place of a lot of options once they get to their high school years. So establishing that incredibly solid academic foundation in those early periods and being a parent that's invested in that and really helping to guide that early skill. And if there is a challenge, you know, different kids learn differently and there's different struggles.

As a parent, really trying to not kind of just hope that that fixes itself, but being able to intervene and help a student if they're struggling in school early on. Yeah, I have two kids. One is 12 and one is nine. And it wasn't really until the nine-year-old started going through elementary school that it really clicked. Oh, all of these math skills like stack on top of each other. So if you're struggling in first grade, second grade is not going to be easier. Third grade's not going to be easier. And, you know, when you start in first grade, it's easy. You know, here's addition.

And going through, just doing even like flashcards with your kids is so important. And I remember my daughter was in, my oldest daughter was, I think, in second or third grade. And the dean actually sent a note to everybody and said, please continue to work on your basic math facts with your kids. Just because they graduated from the addition doesn't mean that they can forget it now. You know, so keep going through the flashcards and doing those with them. And then now I see she's in third grade and I'm seeing the little third grader doing all. all of these things again. And reading is another huge thing.

If you can't even understand the problem, you're never going to be able to answer it. I like that you're starting pre-junior high even because you can't be an F-minus student all the way through fifth grade, and then all of a sudden, your A-plus is in sixth grade. And these little things really add up. And I'm seeing this in my own kids now,

and it's really, really helpful. Yeah, it's incredibly true. I mean, I've spent most of my time as a high school educator, and so obviously I'd like to think that my work with high schoolers is really, really important. But the reality is so much of their educational foundation and their educational trajectory is established by the end of eighth grade. And so not neglecting that component and really helping your child figure out school and really figure out a love for school early on. It sounds like a basic thing. And it doesn't necessarily sound like financial advice, but the rewards that it reaps four or six years later

as a student's looking to college, it really is profound. What are some interventions that you've seen from maybe your experience that have been very effective, kids who maybe have a struggling, and then here's how the parents stepped in and actually corrected that problem? Yeah. So, I mean, probably the biggest one that I see is the attitude and approach that the parent takes towards school. Because there's one category of a challenge,

that a student has of if they have a diagnosed learning disability or a difference and just they're going to approach learning in a very different context. But I feel like the majority of situations that I see, students can learn and they can access the information, but it becomes more about the attitude that they have. And so as a parent, trying to be an encourager in that of, yeah, school may not always be fun, but here's why it's good. And so I think as a parent, and I have three young boys, and so I even have to check myself sometimes of not approaching it in this sense of bad-mouthing school or being kind of cantankerous of, oh, yeah, that's totally lame. You're never going to use that. That's the kind of advice that

doesn't instill inspiration into a student. So I think the attitudinal piece is a big factor. If it is a more severe kind of clearly identified learning disability, I think really reaching out and having active engagement with the educators at the school of trying to get clarity from them because they're the ones best equipped to speak into what the particular situation is for that student. How do you do that without being a helicopter parent? That's actually a really, really astute question. And it's a fine balance. I mean, I think some of it is if as a parent, if you're approaching a teacher or a learning specialist at the school, really approaching with a sense of humility of, hey, here's what I'm seeing at home. I don't know if teachers are seeing that, but I have some

concern and would just want to dialogue through it. So I think addressing it from a stance of partnership and not necessarily kind of a finger wagging type moment of this is how you should be doing your job. And when it's your own kid and you care about it so much, it's easy to fall into that place. But I think just trying to approach it in a professional manner and approach it in a way of, hey, I think there's an issue here. Let's work together. Because the educators and the parents, they're both seeking the same thing. They want to see the students succeed. And so just continuing to remember that as you approach teachers and learning specialists in the school. As a parent, I will say that sometimes I definitely, not even sometimes,

I definitely fall into that helicopter parenting when it comes to homework. But like you said, you care about them so much, you want them to succeed. And it makes me very sad when I see kids who are obviously struggling and they're obviously not getting the help at home. And if you want your kids to go to college, you need to encourage them in grade school. and in middle school. And I think the one, you know, I guess the one disclaimer that I would give is the reservation that I have even of starting to talk about the funding of college this early on is I don't

want it to become the kind of thing where it ratchets up stress for kids or it creates anxiety and panic in the parents. That's really not where we need to be. But instead, just sort of place of hopefully loving the process and really learning how to love education and schooling. So that's my one caveat. I mean, that's the challenge if you start talking about this place. And if those students in first or second grade, that does feel like overkill. And so I don't mean it for that. But just to have a sense of understanding that, like you were saying, Mindy, where are students at early on unless there's external correction,

they're probably going to continue on that same course. So if the student hasn't learned those effective habits early on, then when they get to the high school and transcripts matter and EPA matters, it's hard to turn that ship at that point. That is very true. I didn't turn my ship around. You know, I still did okay, but I could have done a lot better if I would have had my ship turned around. I'm not really sure why I didn't. This isn't about me. So what are some things that parents can be doing pre-high school age to be saving for college? Because not everybody is guaranteed a scholarship and, you know, maybe you do all these things right and it doesn't work out. Yeah, I think From a financial perspective, the biggest avenue that is looked at is 529 plans. And I'm not necessarily

an expert on those. And each state has different regulations that guide the 529s. I think that that issue of having a tax-sheltered avenue to be able to save money, put it aside, I think it can have a lot of merit. I think it really depends on individual situations. And so the secondary kind of approach, and honestly the one that I'm moving into. I had 529 plans for my sons moving more to an approach really from Brandon Turner and what he advocates. But I think it makes a lot of sense to think about an income producing asset and to try to identify are there ways that you can, whether it is real estate or some other avenue,

where you can use that same money, still have that same level of intentionality, but ultimately put it into an asset that will help pay for college when the time comes, rather than having that money just go to the institution itself. So that's the challenge, I think, for a 529, is at the end of the day, those funds can only be used for approved educational expenses. And so if you give all of that money to the institution, you don't have that resource.

The only resource you have on the back end is the degree itself, which is really worthwhile and I think has value. But if you can maintain an asset while getting the degree as well, I think that's the better attack. So what you're referring to is Brandon bought a fourplex. And when did he close on that, Scott, when his daughter was like six days old or something? It might have been like around the day that she was born. Yeah.

Yeah. He bought a fourplex and got a 15-year loan on it. So by the time she is ready to go to college or almost, you know, through high school, the property will be paid off. And then he can either sell it to fund her whole college degree or he can continue to have the asset for her to just generate money. And that's, that's a real. Yeah, or sorry to chime in here. Or he can refinance the property, pull all the cash out, not have a taxable event, put it on a 30-year mortgage on his college, his daughter's education,

and the next generation's college education. I'm a big fan of this approach. I love this. I just love all these. Like it never would have occurred to me to buy a fourplex for my kids. I'm getting ready to buy a triplex. So, yeah, I could fund college for my kids based on my tripbacks. That's a good idea. Basically, if you're listening, you know, you're following, there's kind of two options that were kind of coming up here, it sounds like, right? One is use the 529 plan, which is, again, tax-sheltered, tax-deferred way to save for college

and invest through that. But again, you're not left with anything besides a plan that can pay for higher education there. Use real estate as a means to do that, or use some other after-tax means to save for college that will help you kind of save up those assets and put aside money there. Is that right? Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's part of the challenge is the best thing that you can do is be in a strong financial position and having really been intentional in whichever choice you make. But part of what we're going to talk about is I think if somebody

really follows through with a lot of the principles that you talk about on this show and you've identified and find yourself in a place of financial independence or retiring early, congrats, that's awesome. But that also creates a separate set of challenges. Because of how colleges evaluate financial aid, evaluate assets, and determine the kind of scholarships and aid that a student's going to get when they get to college. Can you kind of go into some more detail there? How would being a early retiree affect some things like FAFSA? Yeah, so kind of skip into that. I mean, the reality is schools look at your, I mean, so FAFSA itself, the free application for student aid is a federal tool that's used that is really dictated just based off.

of your tax returns. And it's a pretty blunt instrument that kicks out this term, your estimated family contribution or your EFC. And that's a base on everything that's shown on your taxes, here's what we think you can contribute to school. The challenge with that is the schools that are giving the highest amount of need-based aid, so aid that's based off of a family's income and financial situation, they're going to use a secondary tool called the CSS profile that is going to be much more precise. And I think ultimately for most of your listeners, if they're in a financially independent state, they're going to get hurt pretty significantly by going through the CSS profile because all of their assets, all of the places that their income comes from,

most schools are going to identify that and say, looks like you have been really diligent and you have a lot of cash reserves. You can pay for college. We're not going to give you money to recruit your kid to come here. So they're not going to get a lot of need-based aid. So then the second category of aid that I think most of the listeners really should focus on is the merit-based aid. And the majority of that merit-based aid is based upon the academic strength of a student. So that's why starting so effectively early on is going to ultimately put them in a position where, regardless of the family's financial circumstances, they're still going to be able to access scholarships and grants that are going to be used as a tool to recruit them to come to the college.

So you're saying that if I'm looking to achieve financial freedom and I build up a solid 401k plan, I've got a couple of rental properties and some tax brokerage account funds that I might have a very low income, which would show up as, which in theory, you'd think would kind of help me apply for, you know, qualify for FAFSA on a low income basis. But because my assets are large, the secondary tool, what was it called the C. CSS profile. The CSS profile is going to expose my net worth and make sure that I'm excluded from need-based aid. And so I need to plan through other avenues in order to get there. Am I reading that correctly?

I think so. I mean, obviously, this is very general advice, and each person's situation is going to be different. But for the most part, the CSS profile is really designed to be able to slice through kind of different tax shelters, different things, and get a true sense of, do you or do you not have the resources to be able to pay for college? And so the schools that you see,

sometimes you'll see, and typically it's the highly selective institutions where they'll say, we're going to cover 100% of demonstrated need. That's kind of a big term that you'll see sometimes as you're reading articles on this. And that's an incredible commitment from these schools, but they're really trying to then determine, is this a family that is, you know, that everything is tax protected and kind of their assets are distributed in a way that the FASA is not going to see it. And if that's the case, they don't necessarily want to give significant aid to that. student because they feel like the family has the resources to be able to pay for college. Okay. So it sounds like if you're a family that is moving toward financial freedom and kind of

getting there, you know, by the time your kids are going to go to college, that we're going to focus on the merit-based thing. Suppose some of our listeners are not going to get there and are going to potentially qualify for that need. I don't think we're going to get into that discussion too much today, but is there a resource or place they can go to look to find more information offline? You know, I mean, I think the biggest place is really with the financial aid office at a particular school that they're thinking about. Because the reality is there's not a one singular approach that colleges and universities use to determine the aid that they're going to give. So because of how divergent those policies can be, if you know, hey, my target institution is Vanderbilt,

then you want to go and look and say, reach out to the financial aid office and get a sense. because for some families, even upper middle class families, they may be able to go to a school that does give, cover 100% of need, cheaper than they could go to their local state university. I mean, I had a family that the student started at CU Boulder, and he was essentially paying full price as an in-state resident at CU Boulder. And even though both parents worked,

they had a good upper middle class income, he went to school cheaper at Vanderbilt because of the way that they covered needs. So every situation is different, but I would say if you have a target tool that you're looking at, address the financial aid office there first. So a couple of things I want to point out. Thank you, Zach, for saying this is kind of an overview of the different ways to fund college. Obviously, you know, if you know everything there is to know about funding college, you're probably not even listening to this anymore.

But this is really for people who don't have a lot of information about funding for college. These are different things for you to look into. like the 529 plan, I think it's a cool plan. I've never set one up, but then I see here that a grandparent can set up a 529 plan, and that money isn't counted against my income or my assets or my kids' income or assets. So that's another thing to look into. I didn't even know grandparents could have a 529 plan. Is my retirement account, my 401k, my IRAs, all of those things,

is those assets counted toward my assets for the CSS sheet, or is it just like my real estate holdings and my after tax investment account? So generally, those retirement assets are not a consideration of it. If they are, functionally, if there's going to be a penalty to access it, generally the schools aren't going to look at that particular piece, but the components of the assets that are after tax and that you do have access to, they're going to make a judgment as to what percentage of that could you leverage to be able to fund college. So there is a distinction there.

Again, I think it getting that specific answer from that particular college because some schools are going to interpret those things a little bit differently. Okay, that's good to know. So let's say somebody was the co-host of a popular podcast and they didn't max out their 401K, they would be doing themselves a disservice by not maxing out their 401K if, say, they wanted to have eight kids

and put them all through college. Completely hypothetical, 100% go doors. So, okay, so we covered a little bit about, like, the preparation for pre-high school. To be clear, all of my grades from 8th grade and before mean nothing to my GPA, my high school, my college applications, that sort of thing. That's just preparing you to be a good student in high school. Is that correct? Almost completely. There's a hand for some schools, if a student is taking, let's say if they're

taking algebra one in eighth grade, and that's considered a high school course in the school district, that particular course may show up during the eighth grade year onto the high school transcript and may factor into the GPA. But I would say the vast majority of schools that year, it's exactly true. What happened before August of ninth grade year is irrelevant to the academic record and colleges are only going to begin looking from fall of freshman year on through their senior year. But that said, what you said earlier is the critical piece here. Nobody gets straight Cs all the way through eighth grade and then becomes a straight A student all through high school.

I mean, it happens, but it's really got to set that trend in. place in that sixth, seventh, sixth, eighth, eighth grade, it sounds like going into high school to keep that going. Is that right? Correct. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So let's switch over then to high school students. They've done great throughout grade school and middle school because they've got great parents who are really involved and helped keeping them on track and doing their math facts. Daphne, we're going to do math facts when I get home today. Every once in and around she'll listen to the show. She hates doing her math facts. My boys as well.

what are some things we want to start off with in high school, maybe even just in freshman year of high school? Yeah. So I think it's important, even though, again, it's not expressly tied to the financial, the funding of college, understanding how colleges are making a determination to grant admission, it figures into this conversation. And so understanding that the most important thing that a school is going to look at is going to be a student's high school transcript. And part of that is the grades associated with it, but it's also the rigor. of the courses that are selected. So just meaning that a 4.0 GPA is not the same as another 4.0 GPA, if one student is taking all elective courses

and the other student is taking multiple honors or AP classes, those two transcripts are not going to be viewed the same by most schools. Some schools are just going to have a purely numeric review where they say, you've graduated from high school, here's your GPA, and then we'll determine admission based off that. But if a school's diving into the details of a student's academic, record, the rigor associated with it and the relative rigor compared to the other students in their school, that matters a lot. So when you're going into ninth grade, starting to think about

what are the courses that we want to pursue? And then what's the right balance? I think as I've worked with families, ninth grade years are really, really challenging year because you have to be able to evaluate, you know, you don't want to be the overzealous parent that's like, man, my kid can do it all. and they go and totally load up. And then we get to middle of fall semester. And it's like there's way more tears than we want. And the students pulling straight seats. Now you're like, okay, overcorrected.

You know, we need to tone it back a little bit. And so finding that sweet spot of an appropriate level of rigor for the student and then also giving them the opportunity to maintain a really solid GPA. Because that ninth grade year is really important. Most for many students, if they're applying, early. So they apply early in their fall semester of their senior year. There may only be six semesters worth of grades that are being evaluated to dictate that GPA. So you don't want to neglect that ninth grade year. And I tell families, I err on the side of being conservative when it

comes to ninth grade year. Because I think ninth grade year, your job won is you want a solid GPA foundation and then sophomore and junior year, then as appropriate for the student. beginning to ratchet up the level of rigor. And if the school has a weighted and unweighted GPA, then that will have a positive benefit to giving them a higher weighted GPA once they get to the point of having their high school transcript reviewed. Yeah, you know, I have an anecdote about this from my high school. You know, I went to a public high school,

but it was pretty competitive in terms of that, like, who was going to be at the graduating at the top of the class. I was not in the running for this. But amongst the people who were, you know, one kid managed to put gym in his senior year, right? And because all these classes classes are weighted, so an elective might have been a 4.0 GPA, he got an A in that class. But an honors class might have been a 4.5 possible weight. And then a gifted and talented or an advanced placement course would have been a 5.0, right? So this kid took all 5.0 classes for freshman year,

sophomore year, or junior year, and got straight A's. 33 other kids also all got straight. days, but they took Jim as a freshman and he took it as a senior. So he was valedictorian because when they declared that before they had a senior year, he had the higher weight of the GPA. So it's like, you know, that was a huge controversy. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here, but that's the kind of stuff that parents probably don't know going in if they're high school, right? They're just like unaware of these ways to kind of game these things. And like all those other kids could have done the same thing and potentially graduate at the top of the class as covaledictorians, but because they didn't know that rule or kind of plan ahead

and kind of have that going in even probably into eighth grade. You know, in that summer before high school, their kids were unfairly at a disadvantage. Yeah. And I think especially, you know, that dynamic of valedictorian and if you're number one in your class or if you're not, I think, yeah, exactly at that high end, that can become hyper-competitive

and you're making a lot of choices. And some of that, my encouragement would be the other 33 kids were still, they put themselves in an incredibly strong position relative to going to college. So I think still being in a good place, even though they didn't have to be the one, maybe it was purposeful, they didn't want to be the one having to give the speech at graduation. So that's what they were thinking about, summer before eighth grade. Yeah, exactly.

I'll have to be a gladiatorian, but I don't really want to give that speech four to a half five. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, taking that off the table. I like to say good for him for thinking ahead and doing that. if that was really like an actual plan that he had, it's kind of smart. He deserves to be valedictorian if he's going to think like that. Well, sorry for taking us all off track here, but that was a good story. How to throw that out there? Okay, so let's suppose you're not going for valedictorian. You know, you're thinking, how does my child who's a good to upper, you know,

above average student, how do we kind of help them put them in a really good position? You said, take a really good set of foundation courses and prepare for that rigor going into sophomore and junior year? Yeah, absolutely. And then I think the other component, we'll get to more of this in a minute as far as how we think about the college process and being able to buy cheap credits, as it were. But part of you can do, most schools, you can do that in high school based on if there's a dual credit or dual enrollment course, if there's an AP course, typically those classes are going to come with an additional weight for a lot of high schools. But those classes also pay dividends later because if they can be used for the general ed. once you get to college, I think that ends up being a really smart thing. So the course side of it and being really intentional on building the transcript is kind of step one. The second step when it comes to prepping is that the vast majority of colleges are still going to look to the ACT or the SAT. And so having a really intentional approach on how you manage that and how you prepare for that. I think that's one of the things that if a family is not well informed, I think that ends up being a place

where they don't do enough to really or put enough stock in the influence that that has. And so my general guideline is a student, on both the ACT and SAT, it is going to test through algebra two math information. So that really indicates when a student should be taking the ACT or SAT. If they are not getting to algebra two until junior year, then they need to wait and not take it, not until maybe the end of their junior year or going into the very early of their senior year. But if a student is taking algebra two as a sophomore, then they can look to take the ACT or SAT really early in junior year. And again, some of that depends on where they're at their English proficiency, but that's generally true for most students. And then I think based on when

you're going to decide to take the test, my recommendation is most students don't have a need to take the ACT or SAT more than three times, but they should plan on taking it multiple times because we see positive results for those students that do. And so then having a calendar of saying, here's where we anticipate taking the ACT or SAT, and then kind of going, looking six months or so before that and starting to layer in some test prep so that a student goes in really to give themselves the best chance possible on those tests. Okay, I've got a couple of questions. The ACT and SAT, when you take it multiple times, I didn't take the SAT,

I did take the ACT, and there's like three or four, it's been a while since I did this. Three or four. Four submissions. Yeah, four sections. I got really awesome grades in three. And then in one of them,

I did not. I got a six in the math part. If I took the test again, would I keep my three high scores and then have the opportunity to improve my math score? Would they take, is it an all-or-nothing thing

or do they take the highest of all the ones that you did? Yeah. So what you're talking about is a term called super-scoring. Sounds as cool as it really can be. And where if you've taken it multiple times, do they take the subsection scores and you just get your best?

So ACT has been pretty clear that they don't desire for the ACT to be super-scored. However, some colleges still do. So like Baylor is an example of a college where they've seen. said, hey, if you take it multiple times, we're going to use your best subscores, and that's what we're going to dictate your scholarships off of. The goal is they want to recruit the kids.

So if the kid, if they can use the math to say, hey, this is your best possible situation, and now that qualifies you for a $4,000 higher scholarship, and that makes the difference of you coming to our school, that's a win-win. And so some schools will super-score. The SAT is more commonly superscored, and that just has two subsections now. So it's a win-win. So it's a out of 1,600 points. And there's a math section and an English writing reading section, each of which is like 50% of the composites for. OK.

And then a couple of minutes ago, you mentioned dual credit courses. Where are you finding the information that this is a dual credit course? Does that come from the high school or from the college? So in most situations, you need to talk to your high school counselor and understand what the program is at your local high school. Most high schools are going to have partnerships.

either with an area school or some school that's maybe tied to their association, if it's a faith-based school or something like that. And they'll have a program where typically they will have maybe endorsed certain, so like the receiving or the college will say, we guarantee this high school class is really functioning like a college level class. And there will be some college, maybe an area of community college, that's actually giving a transcript for the courses taken at the high school. So it can be a fantastic thing.

thing for kids because, and the other benefit is, unlike the AP score, AP has a one test at the end of the year. And even if the kid is fantastic all year long, if they tank that test on one day in May, they may not get college credit. Whereas with dual credit, it's an evaluation of the grade that a student earned in the class. So for different students, AP may be better for one, dual credit might be better for the other. And many schools will have both programs. And so you just want to make an informed choice about which might be the right situation for your student to pursue. And this would give an advantage, I would presume, to trying to find a way to send your child to a large public high school versus a smaller one, right? Because they're going to be more

likely to have some of these programs and deals with the other community colleges. Is that, is that accurate? Is that accurate? So I think that probably was accurate. I feel like I've seen the trend that unless it's, honestly, it's probably more rural schools that have, less of that. But if it's in a metropolis, most schools are still going to have these partnerships. But again, if a family is in the process of evaluating what school do I want my student to go to, and if they're having a keen eye towards how are we going to plan this high school phase to then make the, to give us the most options or most flexibility come college, that may be a factor that informs choosing one school over another. Okay. Okay. Do you recommend paying for test prep courses

like these SAT and ACT, I didn't prepare at all, clearly, for my test. But on the one hand, it seems like a great idea, how much is it cost? How much is the, and it's been so long, I don't even know how much it cost my parents paid for it. Like, what does the SAT cost and the ACT to actually sit and take the test? And then what does some of these test prep courses cost? Yeah. So the tests themselves, I mean, they end up, it depends on. ACT and SCT is a little bit different, and they each have an optional writing section that is a little bit more expensive because it's more expensive to score.

So you're roughly playing on $50 to $70 for each time that you take the ACT or SAT. But as far as the test prep goes, it really depends. Some of that as a parent is making a really wise decision and knowing your son or daughter based on who they are as a student and how they can study. If a student is self-disciplined and really bought into this process of they want to do the very best that they possibly can, I really don't think that you need to pay for test prep. There's enough resources out there. One of the biggest ones is a couple of years ago, SAT piloted a partnership with Khan Academy, which Khan Academy has a ton of online resources and essentially think about it as a database of on-demand tutorials. So everything from Algebra 1 to Calibur But they also rolled out a specific SAT test prep that's free. And so if a student is really self-motivated and can be disciplined enough to work through that, that's an incredible resource. But also your local library.

I mean, almost every library is going to have test prep booklets. You know, I said booklets, they're full books that are maybe 600 pages long. And the reality is SAT and ACT, it's a discrete set of information that's being test. So if a student works through that, even though that feels like a daunting process of working through a 600-page prep book, if they're disappointed enough, you can just check it out, go through it, and you're ready to go. Most kids, in my experience, they need a little bit more structure. And so part of what the parents are paying for is having a coach that's really guiding them and maybe alleviating the parent, writing the kid and creating stress at home and the tutor,

or if it's in a class, they're the ones that can help motivate the kids and kind of of inspire them of, yes, you need to be studying and prepping for this. I got a crazy question here, but is the SAT something that you see is best done in a kind of binge right before the test for two, three, four weeks, maybe a month or two? Or is that something you have to really prepare and keep going after for years of a study for these kids? Yeah. So, I mean, again, it kind of depends on where the kids at.

But if a student is a strong student consistently showing positive results in high school and on other standardized testing that they're taking, then it's probably, it's more you need to focus on what is the test itself and test taking strategies for that particular test. It's not so much the content. If a student is way behind on the content, then that's going to expand the amount of time that they need to dedicate to it. Because, and this is a place where, yeah, that student may be able to kind of turn their share. ship relative to their test score much quicker, easier than they could turn that their academic ship relative to their GPA. Because you can't go back and change what happened in freshman and sophomore year, but you can influence and make significant gains if a student's motivated and attempts to reteach themselves. Ultimately, that then becomes more intrinsically motivated.

And if they're invested in it, I mean, I see incredible gains with kids, but that may stretch it out over six or nine months dependent upon how far behind they are. How do you find kids who are not motivated? What are effective ways to motivate them to take, you know, if nothing else, the grade, you know, hey, grades, you know, whatever, but that this test, so much of their future kind of rides in some ways on the results that you kind of get out of this. Is there ways to get them just on board for this test and then back into the high school flow? Yeah. So honestly, I mean, this is maybe one of the places that I see the most stress and tension that gets created in the parent-child relationship is over this issue. Because I think mom and dad, who are potentially paying for this,

they see the consequence of the decisions that the student's making, and they would love to see the student make a different set of choices. They'd love to see them be more motivated. I think it's one of those things that I think you really have to tread lightly at that point, especially when I see families, the kids now 16, 17 years of age, most kids are not going to respond super favorably to the parent that kind of swoops in. And they're like, you, have got to go do this. They're going to kind of revolt from that and say, screw you, I'm not really in the mood for this right now. And so I think the biggest way that I see it is that the kid has to have a vision for their future and understanding why college is a

component of that process. Because if a student doesn't have that intrinsically, then all of this kind of signing a kid up for test prep and just, you know, maybe putting them in the best schools, if they don't have that vision for their future, they're going to ultimately, I think, flounder a little bit. And so part of what I recommend is in the ninth and tenth grade year, having, you know, I worked with one family, and they called it a vision trip very specifically, where ninth grade year they wanted to get their kids on really good college campuses

and to just kind of start dreaming and thinking about, okay, what could college look like? What do you want, you know, what are your strengths? What do we want to be when you grow up? up and really casting it in that big vision. And then once the student gets excited about that, then when you're like, hey, here's one, you know, for better or for worse, this is a portion of the process. So let's think intentionally about that. And now the kid understands how test prep fits into that. It doesn't just feel like this ancillary thing that gets layered on top of their teenage life.

But instead, it's something that has a purpose. And they say, okay, I'm ready for this. And I'm really willing to put in the work because now I have a picture of what I hope to be when I grew up or what I hope to have this next phase of my life look like. That's really awesome advice. I didn't go to my first college visit until, I don't know, 12th grade. And it was just me. My parents didn't go with me. And I liked it.

I thought it was really cool. It was on the shore of Lake Michigan right outside of Chicago. Kind of difficult to not fall in love with that school. Hopefully you weren't taking that tour in January. that's probably a little different perception at that point of the year. I got another question here, you know, and then I would love to dive into, okay, now that we've got all this covered, how do we actually apply for the scholarships themselves and solve a financial component?

But before we get to that, you know, extracurriculars, right? That was huge when I was in high school. Is that that got to still be a central part of the planning here outside of grades, your transcript and your SAT, right? Yeah. So, again, you know, it depends on the school. really colleges fall into two batches when it comes to their application review process. You're going to have schools. Oftentimes it's maybe second tier public state schools or it's going to be really,

really large schools that they're only going to look at GPA and test score. That's essentially going to be all that they're going to factor in whether or not they admit a student or not. And so if that's the case, they may not care at all about extracurriculars. I don't think that's licensed. to then say, don't be involved in anything and only do test prep for three years. I don't think that's good advice just to make good human beings. I think extracurriculars carry a lot of value

in just the character development and work ethic dealing with adversity, which just pays a lot of dividends in who we want these students to become. So the second set of schools are their admissions process is going to be what they call a holistic review where they're evaluating,

they're taking into account the GPA and test score, but they're really going to look at the counselor letter of recommendation, they're going to look at the teacher letters of recommendation, and the overall resume of where has the student invested their time. And so that is going to be a factor for those schools. That's typically going to be those schools that, especially if they are granting a high level of need-based aid, almost all of those schools are going to be more of that holistic approach. So I think it does still matter. The other thing that I would say is there's, it's not a huge pot of money, but there is money at different schools for

leadership-based merit. And so oftentimes the way that kids are demonstrating leadership skills at the high school level is through extracurriculars of some sort, whether it's sports or Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or some kind of community service activities. And so that especially would play most significantly in those leadership scholarships or if there is kind of a full-ride scholarship that's a competition-based scholarship that the school offers, those are really, really important differentiators of kids at that level. Awesome. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening.

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You know, I mentioned earlier in the show here that I, you know, I went to a very hyper-competitive public high school. And then I wasn't in the top running for a valeditory, but I did fairly well. And I did all these things studied by butt off for the SAT. It was highly self-motivated. I played football, wrestling lacrosse, all that kind of stuff. And I wasn't unusual in my high school.

This was like a lot of the kids there. And then I went, I went to a brand name, expensive college, right? And I think that was influenced by my high school experience. But I think you've mentioned that you might have a different perspective on the pursuit of a brand name college, but influence people and how they're thinking about that approach. Yeah. So I think your situation is one that a lot of parents aspire to for their kids.

They see, you know, I don't necessarily want to list all of them off, but, I mean, you've got these schools that just have a level of prestige associated with their name. And I think it's easy for as a parent to kind of project, your hopes onto your kid, that that's where your kid is going to end up. And for some students, that's absolutely a right fit for them. And they have an incredible experience and it's really beneficial for them. But I think what I see so much of the time is, so a couple of things. In the last 10 years, the landscape of college admission has radically changed. So schools that may have even

been brand name schools, if we look back statistically 10, 15 years ago, they may have had a 30 or 40% acceptance rate, meaning if you applied, you had a three and ten, four and ten chance of getting in. And now that same school may be all the way down to single digits. And they have so many qualified kids applying that it's, I mean, incredibly difficult to get into these schools. And they are looking for very specific things. So a kid can be perfect in their academic record and still get denied to some of these brand name schools. And so if in the process, we've put such a level of emphasis on that school, then it can really be debilitating to a kid's identity, then they don't get in. And so I think it's important to frame this process around, I don't think it's a bad thing

to say, hey, I want to shoot for that. I want to make myself eligible for admission at some of those top schools. But I also want to think about there's this huge gap below kind of these ultra-reach schools and your state university. There's a lot of other private schools. There's about 4,500 colleges and universities nationally. And so identifying and getting well-informed on that landscape so that you're building a college list that's really well-rounded. Maybe you have two or three that you've targeted that may be highly selective, but then you also have maybe another five, six, seven that fill that out and are going to be places where you're going to get maybe a lot more money because maybe you get in, but if it's going to be a $65,000 price tag for

that school, that might not be great. There's a guy named Frank Brinney. He's done a lot of work on this, that he wrote a book called Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be. And I think that's an important resource in this conversation to say there is a place for those highly selective schools. And you don't want to discount it. They have, I mean, they've transformed America in a lot of ways from the research they've produced and the influence they've had on students' lives. But there's also, you know, that's really maybe 100 schools. So there's 4,400 other institutions that are doing similar work. And I think it's important as a parent not to discount those just because maybe they don't look as good on the placard that goes on the back of your car when you're driving. And so that I don't think is the rationale for why we want to pick a particular school, but we want to identify what is the right fit for each student. What are some things that people should be looking for in a school? Yeah. I mean, it is, and again, that's part of the reason that I encourage engaging in the college process starting in that ninth and 10th grade year. Because if you're leaving it up to the kid and they're

16, 17 years old, and you're like, where do you want to go to college? They're going to say California or Arizona or someplace where it's warm. They're going to say someplace that's got a really cool football team or basketball team. They're making decisions not necessarily based on factors that as an adult. We're like, yes, clearly that's the way that you need to make this critical life choice. And so if you start engaging in that process during 9th and 10th grade year, then the student can start to recognize, well, hey, what's the value of a smaller liberal arts community? What's the value of a research institution? What's the value of, hey, I want to be an engineer and I know that. So I'm going to go to a school that actually has engineering. So you've got to be able to be well informed about the

landscape of colleges to then be able to make a well-informed decision. Because if not, then you're just going to go based on your common knowledge. And oftentimes that's sports and in geographic location, which I don't think are great factors. No, that's, while going to the University of Honolulu would be really great today. We're recording this during that horrible polar vortex at the end of January that half of the country is in negative digits. Yeah, that would be a really great place to be today. But yeah, you're right.

That's not the best choice for how to choose a college just based on location, unless you're majoring and surfing in which place you're probably not going to go into college. Or if you're majoring in marine biology, like middle of the country might not make sense. Maybe that coastal city is a good choice for that. But again, if you don't know that, you might just be kind of guessing. Okay. So let's talk about the college application process. I didn't realize that it cost money to apply to a college until sometime last year I heard on the radio that today's free, apply to to all Colorado Colleges Day. I was like, wait, what?

You have to pay to apply? So really, I am starting at less than zero because I'm sure Scott already knew and he doesn't have a kid yet. You have to pay to apply. So let's talk about the application process and do you have any ways to save money other than free Colorado College's Day?

Yeah, so, I mean, that is one. The other piece is especially, you know, not highly selective schools, but a number of other schools, they will actually, part of their recruitment process of a student is they may send emails or they may send a mailer that says, here's a waiver, and it doesn't cost you any money. And maybe we're going to even waive the essay because they have ways on the back end to see like a kid's PSAT or other testing. So that may have pre-identified a student to say you would be a really good academic fit at our

school. So you may get something in the mail that says apply for free. So that often, times will happen. There's also a process where a student can get a fee waiver. So this likely isn't going to be for a family who has reached financial independence. But if a family struggles financially and looking at the different challenges that they have for their student, the school's guidance counselor can help determine, you know, so like if they're eligible for free or reduced lunch, they're likely eligible for tuition waivers. And so they say we don't want that expense to be an impediment to a student applying. So again, it kind of depends on the student's financial situation. But, you know, so when you sign up or kind of demonstrate interest at a college and say, yeah, I am interested in your school,

then depending upon the school, they may send you a waiver that says, apply for free. We want you to come and learn more about our school. All right. So, you know, you've done everything you can in high school to get good grades, maybe do some extracurriculars, but really focus on the grades and that's test scores. And you've gone to a school. that maybe is not awarding you any merit scholarships at that point. Are there any other avenues to approach prior to entering college to attempt to get excess funding? You know, you don't qualify for aid and you have a merit scholarship. Are there any last minute things to be thinking of while going through that transition?

Absolutely. So if a, so let's say the scenario is I do want to go to the name brand school. I'm not going to qualify for need-based aid and the school philosophically doesn't give merit-based state. There's a lot of schools that fit that profile. They only want to use their resources for low-income or medium-income families and make college affordable for them. Then that is the profile of the student that probably should go look at external scholarship. So there are a lot of free resources that a student can go into and search online to be able to identify. And typically, they're going to be smaller. I mean, they may be as small as $100 up to a

a couple of thousand dollars. So you end up having to stack all of these, think about it as like extreme couponing, but for college, where, I mean, you're going to identify all of these different sources of aid, and then you're really going to attempt to put all of that together. It's, this is a, you know, some of those, those resources and we'll put them in the show notes. Yeah, so when a student is attempting to move down this process, a couple are fast web.com, Apex.com, scholarships.com, college board, who's the same company that has, or that puts out the SAT and AP, they have a thing called bigfuture.collegeboard.org where, so there's all of these different free resources. In general, I would say, I don't think scholarships and looking for external

scholarships that you'll see if you're doing searches online, you'll see that there's a lot of places that want to charge you to help you find that money. I personally haven't seen. that work really well with kids. And I think there's a, the issue is they want to open up access to higher education. So I don't think it's something that you really need to be paying money for. With one exception, there is a app that is called My Scali, S-C-H-O-L-L-Y, and it has like a $3 a month charge, but it's almost like Match.com, but for scholarships, where you go in and you put in all of your biographical information, and then they kick out and say, okay, based on potential major based on maybe your ethnicity, your geographic background, all of these other factors,

here's a list of scholarships that you may be eligible for. And they make it really easy to apply online. So that's one. But the expense of it is so cheap that that to me isn't a big deal. But like these other services that are charging hundreds or thousands of dollars to help find it, I think that might not be the best return on an investment for families. So I'm thinking through this, you know, I'm pursuing financial independence, my kid's about to go to college. They got into a pretty good school. It's going to be very expensive and we're not going to qualify for aid. My next step is son or daughter. Here's a list of hundreds of places that offer small scholarships anywhere from one to $5,000.

You're going to be writing about 100 essays over the next month and you're going to be fine for every single one that you beat the qualification for and you're going to do a really good job because this is going to make a major difference in the financial profile of what this is going to look like for college and get to work. Is that what you're saying, basically the path there? So I think it can be. I think that's one path. I think the second, or maybe an alternate path to it, that in some ways I think may be more attainable or replicable for families,

is that you look at, you know, I like to talk with families about buying cheap credits. So I think when you look at the school's transfer credit policy and trying to understand there are some schools that if an undergraduate degree is 120 credits, they will allow you to transfer into their school up to 90 credits. Now that's kind of rare, but many schools will allow you to transfer 60 credits. Some schools will restrict it to 30 credits. Some of the really high-end exclusive schools may not allow any transfer credits.

But if it is a school that has a lenient transfer policy, then I think you start to evaluate, how can I really establish the ways to be able to buy the cheapest credits possible? And so that's where you go back to. to the AP, the dual credit. One that I'm a total fan of is Klepp tests. So with a Klepp test, you go $87, you take a test. And dependent upon the test and the school's policy for Klep,

you may be able to get six credit hours for one test. So a couple hours of time, $87. I mean, that is about the cheapest possible credit that you can buy. You know, I mean, to think about buying college credit at $14 per credit, as opposed to hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for different state universities or private colleges, that's the kind of place where if you can start bundling and you're reducing your overall cost and potentially reducing your overall time in school, that makes a huge difference on the bottom line and essentially is a way to buy college for a discount.

Is the Klep test a test that you take at the end of a course? Or do you just say, I want to take the Klept test? And they're like, here you go. Do you have to study? Is there a way to study? Clearly, I didn't take any of these. Yeah. So it's kind of all of the above. So if a student is in a, let's say, a high school that's preparing them really well, and maybe they're not in a dual credit or AP course, but the rigor of that class is really high, they may have a significant amount of the knowledge that would show up on that KLEP test. And then you can identify, there's guides online that say, here's everything that is covered on this test, the domains of the content area that you need to study.

And that's the kind of thing where for a lot of kids, even if it means they're studying five or six hours a week for a couple of weeks to get other information on the topic area that they didn't get in the class, they can go and access it themselves and go in and test. Some of this is also, if a kid is really good at test-taking, KLEP is a great option. If the kid's not good at test-taking and by this point their educational career, we know if they're much more, you know, maybe they're a better writer or presenter.

They're not a great test taker. If they're not a great test taker, don't force it with KLEP. That's probably, there's other avenues that you can go down. But if they are a great test taker, man, this is a way of like potentially eliminating years of college just based on investing in these, you know, these short tests that you take to demonstrate that I already have this knowledge. And I don't need to spend an entire semester or years worth of time in class. Yeah, and another thing, you know, I didn't take, I didn't have KLEP.

I wasn't aware of it and didn't do any of that, but I did take a lot of AP credits in high school. And what that allowed me to do transferring them into college was dual major and double minor, you know, and a couple of things that I was interested in. And that was, you know, that made that a lot easier on that. You know, one of my big regrets is I didn't knock out Spanish in high school. And then I went three years now studying Spanish, had to take it senior year of college. It was brutal. But that could have, if you can get that done ahead of time. You can take the relevant courses that are relevant to the career you're focusing on as well

and stack up more and more and more in a four-year degree if you still want to go to college for those four years, I think. Exactly. And I think a school like Vanderbilt often, you know, that profile of school usually won't take a KLEP test. So you have to look at the individual school. But I had a student that went to Georgia Tech and they carried in with them a ton of AP courses, a ton of dual credit courses, I think in the neighborhood of like 50 hours when they

got to college. And it was the exact same thing. They were able to study abroad. They were able to do a prolonged paid internship. I mean, you just give yourself more flexibility. So for some students, they're going to want to use that flexibility to get out of school as cheap and as quickly as possible. For other students, it gives them the flexibility to not be constrained by their graduation outline that they have to do for the school, but they're able to have a greater level of flexibility. This is awesome. And Scott, I want to correct you. You said that you would tell your child, okay, go write 100 essays. My cousin Julia is in her first or second year of college and she sat down with her mom and had, her mom would say, okay, the requirements for this are 400 word essay on X.

You already wrote a 500 word essay on that. So go and like edit out that and Wilson with that. So you don't always have to write 500 or 100 essays. But yeah, I mean, one really great essay can be like, you could just use that over and over again. And one. One of my favorite stories for paying for college was this girl's, her mom came to her in ninth grade and said, if you want to go to college, you're going to have to pay for it all on your own because I have no money. And the girl, in my ninth grade, self, would not have done this, but she said, okay, this is now my job for the next four years. My job is to get as much money for college as possible. She had something like a million dollars in scholarships, which itself is just amazing.

But she said, every time I write an essay, and it takes me three hours to write this essay, but I just got myself, you know, $3,000, I just made myself a thousand dollars an hour. And painting your mindset and having your kids like really understand how awesome this is, it goes back to that tip of going to the college and seeing what your life could be like and just, you know, encouraging them all throughout the whole course and, you know, starting early. is fantastic. And I'll call myself out here. I was a jerk.

My parents encouraged me to do that, and I did not do nearly enough of it, and I'm sorry. So throw that out there. You'll look back in your life and feel very bad about that if you don't do that if you're in high school and not doing that. We're in college even. Yes, yes.

To all you kids that are listening now because your parents are making you, this is going to change your whole life. And go back and listen to Travis Hornby in episode 22, where he's talking about people who have soul-crushing amounts. of college student loan debt that they can't ever pay off. And a few hours out of your life is going to change your life dramatically. And you're not even going to remember those few hours being terrible. Yeah.

One quick note, I mean, kind of as another avenue of that, that really resource for scholarship is there are a lot of places where we would just consider maybe kind of starter jobs that are also going to have educational benefits that come along with it. So even during high school or into college, being intentional of where do I want to go and work? And what are the criteria that maybe I could use some of this part-time employment or if I take a gap year or don't immediately go into school, use my workplace as an avenue to be able to access more money? So companies like UPS, Home Depot, Verizon, Starbucks, Lowe's, they have these places where pretty accessible places to go and work, they're going to have pretty safe. significant educational benefits. In my opinion, one of the ones I've recommended to a lot of kids

is with UPS, you can be a part-time package handler, and I think of working as low as like 12 or 15 hours a week. So not super significant hours or kind of impact to your time, and it ends up coming with $5,250 annually in scholarship dollars, up to $25,000 for your lifetime. So if it is that student that their parents says, hey, we can't provide for college or we're not going to be able to and we want you invested. This is the kind of thing that I think has a really significant potential for a lot of students to say, this is a way where I can make a really strong return. I can be invested in my education through the work that I'm doing. I even think things like choosing to be a resident assistant if you're living in a traditional four-year college that has dormitories.

I mean, there's different outlets like that where you can significantly, defray the costs of education. And it's a way really of being invested in that process. And I think that's helpful for a kid. I think that gives them a level of ownership about their educational process that bears a lot of dividends. That UPS job is way outside the box thinking. He's here all day, people. All the time. Okay. What about community colleges? I went to a community college just because my grades were terrible and I needed to bring them up in order to get into my fashion design college.

Yeah. Community colleges are like, well, I'm going to date myself horribly. They're like $50 a credit. They're incredibly cheap. You know, that's very much dependent upon the state. And different states have different philosophies as far as how well they fund community colleges and public colleges. So all across the country, it's going to be wide, you're going to see a wide, wide range

as far as what the expense is. But that's the place, you know, if a student's not a, great test taker necessarily, community college can be a fantastic outlet to start building that credit, demonstrating that they're performing well, and then being able to transfer into another school. Or dependent upon what your goals are, some of the community colleges and local technical colleges, that may be all you need. And you really need an associate's degree. And maybe it's, I want to start down the track of being an electrician, being a welder. I mean, some of these jobs where you can be 24, 25 years old and maybe making 80 some thousand a year,

depending upon market and job. And you're not having to spend four years sitting in classes, learning about whatever your particular subject matter is that you hate the most. You don't have to do that. And you can dive right into maybe a vocational career. The community and technical colleges are, I mean, they perform an incredible service to be able to open up jobs for students. Okay.

So we talked about scholarships. we talked about need-based scholarships and merit-based scholarships. Let's say that your kid is a terrible student and you have, you're rich and your kid is terrible. Or let's say that you don't qualify for need or merit-based and you're just getting loans and grants. First of all, let's define what a loan and a grant is. A grant is somebody just gives you money. It's like a scholarship, right? You don't have to pay that back.

Right. Grants, you're not having to repay. Loans, you do have to repay. pay. So understanding that difference. So typically, when a student goes through the college application process, with most schools, they'll get admitted or denied. They'll get that information first. And then maybe within a few weeks, maybe within two or months or so, then they'll end up getting the financial aid package from the school. That letter, especially, you know, as a parent, that's a much more important letter than just the accept or denied. The kid's excited about the accepted and denied.

the parent really cares about the financial aid package. Being able to understand, okay, what is the federal grants? So things like Pell Grant or the GI Bill, as a parent, you're going to know that based off of the FAFSA or if you had prior military experience. But the merit-based aid from the school, that will show up on there. So if it's a, you know, some may call it the Provost Scholarship or whatever the school's colors are, you know,

it's like here's the crimson and gold scholarship. They'll have different names, and it's got a value amount with it. Typically, those scholarships that are going to come from the school, the student has to keep a certain GPA. Maybe it's a 25, a 30, a 35. It's going to depend on the school. But that money is typically good for four years. You need to look at that and know, is this renewable,

or is this a one-time scholarship? Sometimes those one-time scholarships, most schools don't do this in my experience, but some schools will kind of front-load the aid package and give a really nice package for freshman year. And then sophomore year, certain money goes away. And as a family, you're left totally frustrated. So really splice that award letter and understand what's grants, what's money I'm not going to have to pay back and really just cuts the cost of education. But then what are the loans?

Some schools, and really I would almost say most schools, are going to bundle loans into that aid package. So it's a little bit deceiving in that you can't just look at that bottom line number and say, okay, this is how much it's going to cost for my kid. Because for most families, they are going to make a critical decision of do we want to take that loan or not take that loan? And so you've really got to examine where's the money coming from? Is it renewable? So is this good for four years? And how are loans factored into it?

Also, how our work study, how is that factored? Because sometimes they'll list a federal federal. work study program. And that can be, you know, in my opinion, it's oftentimes going to be better for the student maybe to go work for a place like UPS or some other company that's going to give an educational benefit than it is to do the work study where it's just going to be probably a minimum wage job at the school. Okay. And I want to clarify subsidized and unsubsidized loans because I didn't know this was the thing either. My sister-in-law had a mix of both. I just want to glance over this quickly. What is the difference in that? And where does it say that this is a

subsidized or unsubstitized loan? It should list it. It should be line itemed in the A package that says, here's the maximum subsidized loan that you qualify for. Here's the maximum unsubsidized loan that you qualify for. So subsidized, that's a federal loan product. So when we hear and think about like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, those are, or not that, I'm sorry, with like Department of Education loans, they are going to subsidize a portion of that interest rate. So it's going to be at a lower interest rate that the student is going to repay in the long run as opposed to an unsubsidized loan, meaning it's going to be calibrated to the prime, and it's going to be at a higher amount. So subsidized, I think right now is maybe those loans are maybe at about 6%. An unsubsidized loan might

be a little bit higher at like a 7 or 8% interest rate. And doesn't that start? accruing instantly versus waiting until the end you've graduated? So, yeah, so different loan products have different guidelines around that. Some won't start accruing interests until you're done with school. Some you will be accruing interest. So even if you borrowed $10,000, even though you're not making repayments on it, the interest for that time period that you're in school and not making payments is building on that. So you get done with school and maybe your principal balance now is actually

$10,500, that may be some of what you see depends on whether the loan's in deferment or not, those sorts of things. Okay. Well, actually, one thing that I do want to ask about is all of this presumes from the first place that the goal is to get a college education and that's in there. You know, we haven't bothered to take any time of that talking about that. I obviously believe in the college education path that I took and all that kind of stuff. Have you noticed there's any shifting in that thinking lately, or is that kind of, do you think that's going to continue to be in place that clearly the goal of middle school, high school, all of that is to prepare for average and above average students to get them into a college in an affordable way so they can go

into the workforce? Is that a foundational assumption, correct? I think that is a foundational assumption that most people have, but I think the emphasis that has been placed on college specifically and being college ready, and that historically, that has been an incredibly, effective tool of moving people out of poverty, out of low income, and providing a level of opportunity that they may not have had. I think the challenge for a lot of folks is that the increasing cost to be able to access that opportunity starts to change the calculation for some people, because if it's going to saddle me with debt for decades, then the marginal benefit of that may not be there. I'm also taking four years out or longer, and I'm not going and being in

the workforce. And I think the other piece, and this is the challenge, is that I think, dependent upon the student, a vocation, so I mean, the traditional skilled trades are incredibly valuable, right? I mean, my wife and I built a house recently, and I was talking with our electrician, and we had an electrician that was 24 years old, and he was making $83,000 a year. That's ridiculously good money, you know, and he's not stuck behind a desk. He's, I mean, they were joking, being an electrician, they were saying, is better than being these other trades because they're like, we're inside. We don't have to work in bad weather, nearly as much as these other guys. Now, you potentially, if you don't do your job right, you get electrocuted. So there's some

risk that's associated with it. But there's really value in that, or being a carpenter, being a plumber. I mean, there's all of these other trades, auto mechanic that have a lot of value. And especially if somebody's entrepreneurial, if they have a good sense of business, it may be that an associate's degree from that local community college is going to set the student up incredibly well. So I think your point is really astute that we don't want to just drive that process and say we need to it's college or bust. But my goal with families is I want them to get to senior year and they have all options open. If a student makes an informed choice at 17 or 18 and says, I want to go this path and I think this is what I'm really geared towards, that's awesome. That's a great choice. What I don't

want to have happen is you get to the end of high school, things haven't been put in place, and now you don't have an option. You feel like that's the only thing you can go do. That, I think, is a place that breeds resentment and that ultimately they don't want to be in the long run. But if it's a willful choice, I think that's a great option. I think this has been a fantastic discussion. It might take away, you know, all the way back to the beginning is like, this starts as, you know, in the early days or even before you even have a child, right? It is really where it begins. Like, if I can pull a Brandon Turner, and buy that fourplex and finance it in a 15-year note,

you know, I've taken care of all of this before they're even bored, right? And it's going to be a huge luxury when it comes to the decision-making down the line. Fast-forwarding, it's taking an active role in your child's education, teaching them math and reading, right, and getting all that kind of stuff, and then going into all the tips and tactics that we get into in high school. But it really seems like this war, whatever the journey, really needs to be begun in elementary school, and into middle school and really kind of get the force there.

It's much harder afterwards to kind of get the wheels turning, but not impossible, of course. Is that a kind of good way to think about it? Yeah, very succinct summary. Awesome. Zach, this has been amazing, and I'm personally very excited that you sent me this note because I'm going to use all of this stuff. I'm going to go home and make my daughter listen to this, and she's going to love it. Hi, Claire.

And I know we've discussed a ton of things today, and we're going to put links to all of these fabulous programs and websites that you mentioned on the show. We're going to put them all in the show notes, what can be found at biggerpockets.com slash money show 64. Okay, I think it's time now for our famous four, the same four questions and demand that we ask all of our guests. Zach, are you ready? Oh, I'm so prepared.

That's good. Oh, that means that you probably have a joke. What is your favorite finance book? Yeah, so I gave this a lot of thought, and ultimately I went back to a book that I haven't read in probably 20 years, so I really can't speak to whether or not it's good anymore or relevant or not, but I just know it was impactful for me, and that was the automatic millionaire by David Bach. It was really the first finance book that I read when I was really young, and I feel like its most simple lesson is make it all. all automatic, your retirement deductions, put all of that away, which I feel like is great,

because then I can be an idiot with my finances and I've already protected myself by paying myself first. So I've been thankful for that advice that I received early on. It is still a valid book. Okay, good. You're the expert on that, not me. What was your biggest money mistake? And I'm going to throw in a second one here. What is the biggest money mistake that you see families, maybe of the type that we were just talking about making. Yeah. So as I was thinking about this, I would have to say that I think my biggest money mistake, ultimately, I ended up buying a car on payments when I was in high school. And I think that set up just kind of an approach for how I use debt that was that, you know, even in some

ways still working to unravel. And so I think just it's set in process some habits for myself that probably shouldn't have had or didn't, you know, wasn't as efficient as I could have been with my money. The second kind of part to me on that as far as how to be able to what I see with families is, I would say it probably goes to this issue of name brand colleges. I think it's the families that identify schools that are probably priced too high and that maybe it's tying too much identity or too much pride in a particular school and then making a choice that ultimately they're taking a level of debt that's not maybe not the best choice for them in the long run. Awesome. Yeah, that's great advice. Who was it? Scott, I've been trying to think who it was,

I think it was Travis Hornsby, who said that he had gotten this amazing scholarship from somebody from a college, but then it turned out to be even cheaper to go to this other college. They gave him less or even none because the original college was so expensive. it might have been Travis. I can't remember that one. Oh, maybe I just made it up then. Zach, what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? Yeah.

So when I was a high school student, I don't feel like I listened to my mom nearly enough, but I would give my mom this credit of I feel like I've come back to this advice and counsel that she's given me and I give to families that I work with all the time. It's that every decision that you make opens or closes doors. every decision that you make opens or closes doors. So the wise person makes decisions that opens doors. I think as you go through this educational process, this is really true, right? The choices that you're making in elementary, in middle school, high school, college, beyond,

all of those provide more or less opportunities for you as you get older. And so just really being intentional on what, how are you making those choices and living a wide, life in that regard. That is a brilliant quote. My mom. Mrs. Gattier, that's awesome. Yes. All right.

What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Okay, so I have three little boys. They're not little anymore. 13, 11, and 8. And they were so excited about this particular question, and they have been giving me nothing but jokes. So my favorite dad pun is, So I'll give you a dad pun and an actual joke.

I had a step ladder. I never met my real ladder. So I always like that. It may be laugh. My kid's favorite joke that I tell, though, is a man's hiking through the forest. He ends up going into this cave. Inside the cave, he finds a magic lantern.

And so he rubs the lantern, out pops the genie. And he's like, my day is made. This is so exciting. So the genie tells him, here's the rules of this lantern. You get one wish, but there's an exception. Whatever you wish for, your mother-in-law is going to get double. The guy's thinking, he's like, man, this is, what am I going to do? What am I going to do?

So finally, he thinks he's got it, and he turns to the genie, and he's like, I want to be scared, half to death. Oh my gosh. It's both a mother-in-law joke and a math joke. Perfect. That's what you can work on with your children when you're preparing them for the SAT. There you go. You're obviously on top of this.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, hello, little Gattiers. Yes, thank you for an awesome joke. What was the runner-up, though? What was the next joke? Yeah, you've got three kids really told one joke.

Yeah, yeah. So I found this one funnier that they found it. They were kind of like, dad, that's not that funny. What did the janitor say when he jumped out of the closet? Supplies! That's awesome. I side with your boys. Okay. Okay, Zach. That was fabulous. That was fabulous. Tell us. This guy, by the way, I, I, I find that. I, I find that was very, I, I, I find that, okay. Okay, Zach. That was fabulous. That was fabulous. Tell us. So this guy, by the way, I just thought of it, thought of this. This guy is asking to take off so he can visit his mother-in-law, right? And the boss says, certainly not. You cannot do that. You know what the guy says?

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Thank you for understanding. No, on the mother. Perfect. That's all. To be clear, I have a great mother-in-law. I love my husband.

So I feel like that needs to go on the record. All right. Yeah. You had a great relationship. with your mother-in-law until she hears this. These jokes are so relatable to all of the high school and middle school students that are going to be listening to episode. Yeah, all the high school kids are going to relate directly to mother and father-in-law.

They're all looking at their parents. Mom, I can't believe you made me listen to this. Yeah. Okay, Zach, tell us where people can find out more about you. Yeah, so I would say the best place is probably at my website. So triple fitccc.com. triplefitcc.com or triplefitcc at gmail.com, just to shoot me an email. Because really, when I think about the college process, it's an issue of there's three factors that I think are incredibly important.

It has to be the right financial fit, social fit, and academic fit. If those three things aren't aligned for a student, they may get into the best school or get into any number of different schools that are great for some kids, but not great for them and their family. That is, you know what, that's really, really, really important. It's like you've done this before. Yeah, a few times. Awesome. Okay, we will put links to that in the show notes as well.

Again, you can find the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash money show 64. Zach, this was huge. This was so helpful. I know that we're just starting middle school in my family, but I am definitely going to be checking these show notes and back in the listening to the show again in a couple of years when it's time to. start thinking about college. God, I feel old. Scott, like, just graduated from college and I've got a kid who's getting ready to go into college. I know. Honestly, it is my joy to be able to share

this resource that I have, but it's so appreciate you all. It's been a fun journey for myself of getting to listen to every episode. And so I feel like a total fanboy, but I appreciate the opportunity to get to share this little section of it that I really know. Well, we're glad you love the show. And thank you so much for adding so much about to today's show. We appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we will talk to you again soon. Then, Zach, thanks so much. Thank you. All right, that was Zach Gattir. Wow, I thought that was pretty impressive. He's obviously studied this subject for an entire career and knows everything you can want to know about this. Yeah, yeah, it's like he's done this before. One of my biggest takeaways

from this, actually several of my biggest takeaways from this is, you know, look at transfer credit options. And I would even go a step further and say, if you have a couple of colleges that you're considering, look at the transfer credit options and see, you know, if one only allows, like Zach said, some allow like 30 or even zero and others allow up to 90. If you're like kind of on the fence and you've got a college that offers 90 credit courses to transfer in, maybe that could be the deciding factor, especially if you're having trouble, like really deciding. also intentionally choosing where to work can give you scholarships, intentionally choosing as a high school kid.

Frankly, it didn't matter to me that I was working at, you know, dairy queen or McDonald's. I could have worked at Home Depot. And that would have given me a better start off on my house flipping anyway. But just the amount of options available, if you just put a little thought into it, is really one of the biggest takeaways from this whole. Yeah, I mean, the other thing is just the tangible dollars and cents that result from studying hard, getting good grades and acing these ridiculously important tests, the ACT and the SAT.

I mean, like, that is real dollars and real stakes for high school. Those are you listening that are in high school or about to enter it. If you don't apply yourself there, that's going to be a limit your options. It's going to close doors and all that kind of stuff, right? I mean, we spent a lot of time on that because it sounds like that's the fundamental here. Everything else is a tactic, right? Everything else is a tip and a trick and a way to mitigate some of these costs and kind of come around through there, right?

That is the fundamentals that you've got to apply over the course of that time to figure this out and have the best shot to get started on a really good playing field in adult life, chief financial freedom. Right. And it starts in grade school. Yeah. If your kids are in grade school and you're thinking, oh, this doesn't really apply to me. Yes, it does.

Work on their reading. Work on their math. if you can't help them with their math in grade school, in junior high, in high school, I'm so glad my husband can help with the algebra because that's not my thing. But if neither of you can help, then get extra help outside of your family because this is the thing that's really going to determine how much money your college is going to give you. And, you know, nobody is clamoring for those D-minus students. Yeah, I mean, you've got to take 100% accountability.

for your student's grades, and your student has to take 100% accountability for his or her grades. So at the end of this show, we said goodbye to Zach, and then we continue to talk to him for a few minutes, and he offered to answer questions in one of our forum threads. Just kind of a Q&A. He's going to pop on for the rest of this week and answer any questions that you have or try to answer any questions. I can't promise that he's going to be able to answer your questions. But so if you go to biggerpockets.com slash college queue, that's biggerpockets.com slash college queue, that will take you to a forum where Zach will answer your college questions. Yep, that's a new thing we're trying out.

I think it'll be very exciting. So excited to see what people come up with. Yeah, I'm really excited. So, yeah, and then. We'll start off with what the third joke was that he was going to call me. Probably another bad one. No offense. They were great. You're insulting his kids, not him. The kids' jokes were great. I actually did like the step-ladder joke. That was kind of funny. Okay, Scott, this went super long,

so we should get out of here. Are you ready? Let's do it. From episode 64 of the Bigger Pockets of Money podcast, he's Scott Trench. I'm Mindy Jensen, and we are gone, baby gone.