BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 72: Increasing Your Income Through Commissions With Dawn Brenengen

Episode Date: May 13, 2019

Dawn Brenengen’s money story begins a bit differently than most. Dawn’s parents shared their finances with her. She knew what things cost, she knew her parents worked hard to pay off their mortgage, and she saw her mother writing checks to pay bills every month. She went to college and graduated with relatively little debt—around $21,000 in student loans and credit cards combined. After graduation, she stayed at her low-paying college job until her father suggested she get a real estate license. Dawn completed the work for the license and got a job making almost the same money, working for a builder and selling their new homes. But she was the assistant to the agents who were making the BIG BUCKS, and she knew that’s what she really wanted to be doing. At the time, real estate agents were eligible to take the test to open up their own brokerage simultaneously with the licensing test, so she did that. While working as an assistant, she laid the groundwork to strike out on her own, eventually ramping up her income to multiple six-figures—with virtually limitless potential. Here Dawn share her story of how hard work and determination paid off tenfold—and all in just four short years! In This Episode We Cover: Dawn's background with money How she grew up in a financially literate household The debts she accumulated during and after graduating college How she paid off her debts Is it possible to invest your student loan? What happened after she got her real estate license How she got serious about making money and building her financial position Having a goal to get a job where she was making a bulk of the commission Started her own brokerage business on 2010 People she recommend to hire out on starting a business How much time and money needed on starting a business The benefits of having a business partner Applying all the money she makes in terms of her wealth building philosophy Dawn's investment approach Private lending on her surplus cash What a private lending is Her annual spending and her income And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums Mr money Mustache Frugality as a Muscle - Mr. Money Mustache BiggerPockets Money Podcast 26: Graduating College on Track for Financial Independence with Cody Berman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 72. One of probably the most positive things that happened to me was not making a lot of money in those early years because I learned and I could see what was going on around me. And I learned from other people's mistakes instead of having to go out and make my own. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right. place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Ms. Minnie Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I'm having a great day. How are you doing? I am doing fantastic. I'm excited to interview

Dawn, and she's a longtime Bigger Pockets contributor, has a fantastic career as a real estate agent. We're going to hear all about her transition from kind of dead end career, but not really, because they help prepare her to become a successful real estate agent and just kind of how she managed to build an incredible financial position on the income and wealth building fronts over the last couple years. Yeah. And you know what I like about Don's story is, you know, I'm a frugal person on the path to, well, I've reached the end of financial independence, but I'm a frugal person who does it. She is showing us that you don't necessarily have to be frugal. You don't have to, you know, eat rice and beans and peanut butter sandwiches and spend $10,000 a year to continue to be

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Dawn Brennigan, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. How are you today? I'm doing great, Mindy. How are you? I am doing fantastic. I'm really excited to hear about your story because not only are you going to tell us how you grew up with money, but you're also going to share with us how you increase your income, which is, you know, and I'm not.

On the path to financial independence, you can either reduce your spending or increase your income or do a powerhouse combination of both. And I really like how you increase your income because it's repeatable. It isn't like you're a nuclear physicist and you went to school for 7,000 years to become this. You have a really great story and I'm super excited to jump into it. So before I tell your whole story, why don't you start off with where your journey with money begins? Yeah, I grew up in a really money, financially literate household. So my parents were really good at, you know, making sure I just kind of knew the day in and day out, things to know about money, right?

So my mom would sit at the kitchen table and pay our bills. So I knew our mortgage was $600 a month. I knew when our mortgage was paid off. You know, they would take a car loan out to buy a car, but then immediately would start knocking down that debt. You know, I don't think we ever had a car loan for more than six or seven months. You know, I knew how much electricity costs. I knew what our food budget was. I shopped with my mom. She was a stay-home mom for a long time and, you know, started working when I was a little bit on the older side. And my dad, he was in the Army. And then he was an entrepreneur after he retired from the Army. So, you know, they just kept me very involved with stuff. You know, I helped my dad make deposits from his store. And, you know, I worked in a store

when I was 14 and 15 years old and for free because he wouldn't pay me to do that. I was a slave to my kids. Yeah, that's right. So I was also an only child and quite spoiled in other ways, but he didn't let me trade time for money. And so I think I had a big head start when I went to college. I was able to, you know, make sure my rent was paid on. time. My credit card bills were paid on time, but I still did those dumb things that 20-year-olds do go into debt or buy cars you don't need or go out to eat every day for lunch. And I made all of those financial mistakes along the way. I think I just had enough financial education to know that they were mistakes and to put myself back on the right track. And I worked a W-2 wage job

when I graduated from college and made about $27,000 a year when I graduated back in 2001, so now we're 18 years ago and $27,000 a year was not very much back then either. And I had roommates, you know, I had people to share expenses with and stuff. And so I was always able to pay my bills, but, you know, just never really had a whole lot to put away for savings. And, you know, like I said, I spent my 20s having a lot of fun. I went out drinking all the time with my friends and we would go out to eat and we would go on vacations and, you know, it was definitely spending a lot more than I earned, but kind of quickly figured out like, hey, I've got to figure this out. And I'm I think when I graduated from college, I thought that I would make a lot of money and therefore would be able to pay back all this stuff pretty easily.

It didn't happen that way. What were you doing? What did you go to school for? I was a psychology major and I worked in a therapeutic foster care agency when I graduated. So I managed their medical records. And then I also worked one-on-one with some of the high-risk kids in their community. What were the debts that you accumulated in this time period? What were you paying off? A lot of credit card debt.

I probably had, by the time I graduated from college, probably had about 10,000 in credit card debt. I had a car loan. And then after I graduated from college, I had a little bit of a student loan too. Fortunately, I was able to work my way through most of college. And my student loans were only about, I think, $11,000 when I graduated. But the reason I took out the student loan was not to pay for school. It was to pay for spring break. So, so again, you know, bad decisions along the way. Well, bad decisions, I'm going to give you a little bit of a pass because it sounds like, you graduated college with $21,000 in debt, give or take. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's nothing compared to some of the people that we've talked to. Although when you're making $27,000 a year,

that's still huge. So how did you pay off your loans? And when did you pay off like all of this debt? I kept everything like student loans. I just kept on the regular payment schedule because the interest rates were so cheap. Actually, I say I took out that loan for a spring break. I actually I used part of it for a spring break and I actually invested the other part because I knew one, I wouldn't have to pay my student loans back until after I graduated. So I had a few years of being able to earn interest on the money and then I could pay it off when I graduated. So what did you invested? At the time, my parents had a mutual fund that they had started a IRA for me when I was a kid. And so I put some more money into that. You know, and the idea was it would grow a little bit

and then by the time I had to pay it back, I would have some money to pay it back. Unfortunately, I also just kept spending money along the way. So again, you know, there's like a tug-a-war of being smart with your money and not smart with your money. I, you know, I had big ideas. Just not everything would always work out the way I planned on. That's really interesting, though. Do you think that other people could apply that where, hey, I can take out a student loan and then just invest it instead of using it for education?

Sure, if you were disciplined enough to not spend the money, absolutely. Oh, I have to think on that. There were deferred loans, right? I didn't have to make any payments or pay any interest until after I graduated. So theoretically, if you could pull out loans that first year of college and let it grow for four years, obviously you're accounting on being in a bull market or whatever it is you're going to invest it in needs to have a return at the end. Yeah, hey, invested in real estate. No, okay.

I want to call a time out here and say, if you choose to invest in real estate or invest your student loan money, just know that past performance is not indicative of future gains and you could lose it all. and, you know, so, and we're at the, what, 10 years into a bear market, bull market. So, you know. And that's kind of how it worked out for me. Go with caution. I went to school from 1997 and graduated in 2001. That was not a great market to graduate into, you know, the dot-com bus had happened shortly

after that. So, you know, stock market kind of took a dive. Or, well, it just was very, very flat in my years of early investing. So I just felt like I, like my 20s were almost a lost decade of not making very much money, not having great returns in anything, you know, still kind of floating along, spending more money than I should, you know, but just kind of slowly increasing my income there. It wasn't until my 30s that I took off. How long did you work at the foster care place?

I worked there during college for a while, but once I graduated and started working full time, it was only a year. Okay. And then where did you go after that? And how much were you making? So I realized that I was not going to make any money at the foster care agency. And so I started looking into other things I could do. And my dad suggested that I go get my real estate license. And so I did that. And once I had my license in hand, I just started applying for every job that was real estate related

and ended up getting an assistant position in a new homes subdivision. I didn't even know new homes were a thing. I didn't know builders were out there building communities. I knew nothing about nothing. So I started working there and actually took a little bit of a pay cut to work there. but I had the opportunity to make a little bit in bonuses as well. So, you know, when you're not making very much money and you've learned to kind of live off of nothing, you can kind of take a pay cut and not really affect you all that much.

So was this a real estate, like what kind of position was, as you said it was an assistant position, were you selling the new homes? Were you the agent there? So there were two agents that worked as partners at the model. And we worked for a real estate company because it was a builder team. So it was a custom builder team. and they hired the real estate company to go hang out at the model and sell homes for all 13 builders that were building in the neighborhood. So those two, they made awesome money. So this was 2003,

and I was probably there for three years or so with that particular neighborhood. And the home prices ranged from, at the time, probably $250 over a million because there was like a little lake and had some beautiful lake houses. And we get the breakdown of commission for every house that we sell, and I'm doing the math to see what these other ladies are making. They're just, paying me an hourly wage with a small bonus. They're making $200,000 a year. And I was like, huh, I was like, okay, I'm going to keep doing this and try to work up and get my own neighborhood and, you know, try to do their job in this thing. So would you, would you say that that, that realization was the point where you kind of like got serious about making money and building your financial

position? Or where did that kind of moment happen for you if that was not that, that moment? That was definitely my goal. I wanted to have their job. So, you know, the problem. with new home communities, though, is that eventually they run out a lot and you have to move on to another community. And some communities are better than others. Some are super popular. You sell tons of homes. And some are just small entry level in today's market, they would do really well, but small entry level homes that don't sell as well, especially when you hit the recession. So 2008 brought the beginning of the recession around here. And, you know, nothing was selling. So I had moved from that assistant position to another assistant position in a very active neighborhood where they were selling a ton of homes.

And my income increased there to probably, depending on the year, somewhere between 45 to 60, but my goal was still to get the job where, you know, I was making the bulk of the commissions and not just the assistant level of the commission. So I did eventually get my own neighborhoods, but they weren't like those kinds of neighborhoods where you made a ton of money. So, you know, I kind of capped out doing new home sales around 60,000. But it was a comfortable job, right? Like you don't have to chase clients.

You have a neighborhood full of listings. You have a set schedule. It was an easy schedule, 11 to 5. every day, but you did have to work weekends. I know 11 to 5. It was awesome, especially in your 20s and hanging out at night until 2 a.m. You don't have to roll into work till 11. It just fit my lifestyle for a while. You know, so I did that. And then it comes the recession, right? So now we're sitting around not selling anything. And I was bored. You know, I was just used to being in active neighborhoods where, you know, selling homes left and right and, you know, just stayed busy all day

long. You know, when the recession hit, we just had very little to do and you're stuck in your office. go do other things. So, you know, you're just sitting in a sales office and nobody's coming by. So I wanted to open up a property management company and I approached my broker to see if they would allow me to do that separately from the company I was already working with. And they wouldn't. So I didn't quit right away, but I started to kind of get my ducks together. I spent a lot of that time sitting on site not having customers coming in and spending that time planning my exit. So I was getting my LLC paperwork together and I was figuring out how I was going to market. just coming up with a lot of different plans.

And so when I finally pulled the trigger, I was ready to hit the ground running. So in my state and in several other states, there's different levels of real estate agent certifications or qualifications. And in Colorado, there's the real estate agent and then there's the employing broker. Does your state do that as well? Did you have to take additional coursework? It's called different things. And it's changed since the time I got my license.

So when I first got my license, the test was the same. The state test was the same for your salesperson or your broker license. And I went ahead and took both classes so that when I got my license, I was already a broker. So the day I got my license, I could have just run out and started my own company if I wanted to. Really? Yeah. So somewhere along the way they decided that was a bad idea. It is. No offense. But it probably is. So now everybody is a broker, but they call them provisional brokers and then full brokers. So if you get your license, you're a provisional broker. You have three years to take another 90 hours of course work over those three years. You can do it all the first year if you want to. And then there's also an employment requirement that you have to, I think work two years full time. Don't hold me to that under somebody else before you can go hang your own shingle. And then there's just a broker in charge class is what we call it. Once you take that broker in charge class, then you can qualify to be an employing broker. Okay. So you did it a little differently because they used to do it differently. Yeah, the rules have changed, and frankly, I like the rules better.

In Colorado, when I got my license, I could have waited two years, sold zero houses, done zero work, and then taken the coursework and passed the test to become a employing broker, which I've never felt qualified to do, so I haven't done. And just recently, they changed that. Now you actually have to have done a set number of deals and been in the business for a while and all of that, which I think is better, because you're helping somebody buy the most expensive purchase they're ever going to make. You should probably know a little bit. Yeah, you should know what you're doing. Yeah. And if you're like leading people who are doing this, you should be an expert. Yes. But you've had your license since what, 2002, three? Yeah. So I got it right at the end of

2002 and started working in 2003. Okay. I didn't start my own company until 2010. And that's when I became a broker in charge. Okay. So you opened up your own business and then all of a sudden you're a millionaire. All of a sudden, I actually, you know, took the time to go through all of my tax records. I'm the kind of person who keeps everything, right? So I'm going from, you know, my tax records back when I graduated from college to what they were. Well, I didn't do my 2018 taxes yet, but 2017, just to kind of see, like, how it ramped up. And, yeah, 2010 was a lean year. You know, I had just gotten started and I was spending, you know, more time trying to get the business going than I was actually out there doing stuff. And I was really scared when I started it because I didn't know. if anyone would ever hire me. I felt unqualified. I think I just had a big case of imposter syndrome going on. But I started to get clients. I remember the very first time my cell phone rang that I had bought separately as a business line. So, you know, I hear this like ringing sound in my house and I was like, what is that? You know, it's not my regular phone. I was like, what is that sound? And I realized, oh my gosh, it's my work number. Hello, Trowwood Realty. How can I help you?

And I was so excited to get that first phone call. And it's funny because I remember that phone call and, you know, she's actually still a client of mine now. I don't know that she knows that she was my first, but when I started my business, I checked in that first year, I only made $16,000. But by my fourth year, I was making six figures. I had made about $125,000. So four years after that, I was able to ramp it up into a six figure salary. And I know 2017, I had hit about $200,000. And last year, I haven't done my taxes yet, but I did, you know, know, figure out all my income and stuff. And I did take on a business partner last year, beginning of last year, which I think has helped increase the business because now we have two

people out there and we can kind of focus on things instead of me trying to do everything by myself. And I was able to increase my income last year up to about 300,000. And 2019 should be about the same, if not maybe a little bit better, hopefully. And, you know, I did all that in my 30s. So 20s, I spent being broke and having a good time. 39 years old now. And so when I started that business in 2010, I was 30 years old. And part of why I felt I was able to take the leap at that time is I'd also gotten married. My husband has a stable W2 job with health insurance and stuff. So I felt a little bit more grounded and able to take a little bit of risk because he was there to catch me if I fell. But fortunately, that didn't happen. And, you know, he's had some

income increases along the way. Obviously, mine has ramped up a lot in the last five years. And now we're kind of sitting on a net worth of about, it's about 1.2. And so if we wanted to retire today, theoretically, we probably could do it. I personally know how I like to also spend money. So I'm not ready to retire until I'm like a fat fire. I want to go fat fire before I do. So I want to have to like think about, you know, the money that I'm spending. Do you enjoy being a real estate agent? I really like it. It definitely has some trials and tribulations sometimes. But I love that no, no two days are the same. You know, we're out there all over town. I'm meeting people all the time. You know, I'm having conversations with people all the time. And I like that, you know, I just get to meet new people.

And I've started working with a lot of investors. So, you know, it's kind of cool to like watch them grow their net worth and to grow their portfolios and stuff. So it's very cool to be able to help people kind of achieve those same goals. Sorry, going back to that kind of beginning stage of building your business, right? Like imagine, imagine that some of our listeners are out there and they're thinking, hey, you know, I don't mind my job, but it's not got that great of prospects. I want to kind of go out and do something like this, become an agent and build a brokerage business. Like if you went back and looked at those couple of years, what did you need to have prepared? It sounds like low expenses. It sounds like the stable job from your husband was helpful in that with the health care. But what kind of like business outlined do you have to have?

What would be reasonable expectations for a new agent starting out? Yeah, I went and, you know, tried to learn as much as I, could before I started my own business. And I didn't have any money really to go out and pay people to figure these things out for me. So, you know, I had to figure out the legal stuff. You know, I had to create my own LLC and I had to build my own website. I literally learned how to build a website. And I am not a, I went, I went back and looked at my website a few years after that. You know, I kind of built it and then just forgot about it. And went back, I looked at it five years later. I was like, oh, it looks like a child built this website. And, you know, so, and I didn't have a

CPA in the beginning. So I made some financial mistakes, you know, trying to figure out the best way to do my taxes and record things and stuff. So, you know, I kind of just really bootstrap stuff in the beginning to keep my expenses low. Some of that stuff I probably should have paid to get the professional help from the beginning. So that's definitely, I think, a mistake that I made was not finding the money to pay a CPA and make sure if things done correctly from the beginning. Because to pay somebody to come back and fix everything that you messed up is way more expensive of than having them just do it from the beginning. Fortunately, the LLC paperwork and all that stuff was fine.

I was able to do that on my own. But if you have any questions about that type of thing, you don't want to mess it up. So I hire the right people that you need. Besides the CPA, who else would you recommend people hire out from the start? Because I think the CPA and hiring somebody to do your taxes, oh, I've got turbotax. It's so easy.

Well, yeah, if you work a W-2 job and you have no extra anything and it's just a straight, boring tax return, sure, you should probably do a turbo tax. Or if you don't feel comfortable, you don't go to H&R Block or whatever. But once you start adding these weird things, these special little things, you have your own business,

you know, there's a lot of things that you can write off, but you can only write it off if you know what you're doing, if you know that these are write-offable expenses. So who else would you recommend to hire out? The CPA was definitely the big one. Once I got in good with a good CPA and a bookkeeper, actually now I have both, and there are two different people. I changed business from an LLC to a subchapter S corporation and, you know, kind of figured out some tax strategies to make things a little bit better along the way.

You know, that's not stuff I would have ever figured out on my own. We hired a lawyer to create the partnership agreement. So we spent probably, I think, $3,000 for them to come up with a good operating agreement so that my business partner and I knew exactly how we were going to run this business from this point on. And what happens if somebody wants to leave the business? What happens if one of us dies? What happens? You know, we really want to make sure we covered every base that we had.

So it was good to hire a lawyer to come in and do that. You know, it's like you can do stuff off a legal Zoom, but that seems like a bad idea unless you already know what you're doing. If you're starting this business tomorrow from scratch, I pretend you don't know anything about this, but how much would you say would be needed from a money and time commitment just to get the T's crossed and I's dot? from a legal accounting, all that kind of stuff perspective.

Well, one nice thing about real estate is that it is such a low overhead business if you want it to be. So you don't have to go out and rent office space and create like a big brokerage. You can work from home half the time you're out in the community anyway, so you don't really meet clients very often in an office. So it just doesn't take very much money. But the requirements are going to be different in different states because filing paperwork is going to be different fees.

Being a broker costs a little bit differently here. versus if you were just working under somebody's brokerage. You need to get proper insurance, errors and emissions insurance. Since I also do property management, I have liability insurance. So, you know, I would say probably a good $5,000 budget to just get some of those things off the ground would be reasonable. But you don't really need too much. I mean, you know, you don't have to get a brand new website done. You don't have to get the fanciest business cards.

You know, some of that stuff is just the fluff and, you know, not necessary. But good to have along the way for marketing. And then the challenge here, you know, these are definitely hurdles you have to overcome to get started. But the challenge, I think, is going to be in the production of revenue, generating clients, generating business and all that kind of stuff. So what did that journey look like for you in those first couple of years? How did you talk about the first call? How did you get more and scale? Well, and how did you get that first call? Right. So that is typically where I see people fail when they get their real estate license and not just, you know, open your own brokerage,

but people go through the classes, they get their real estate license, and I'm not sure exactly what they imagine it to be, but you go out there and you work for a broker, and you're kind of thrown into the mix, right? And I think that they think that brokers are going to give you leads, or there's some salary, or there's some handholding that comes along the way. And 99% of the time, and it's just not like that. You have to go out there and hunt your own food.

So you have to build a big network. I am in every mom's group. I am in every neighborhood gathering. I am at every Bigger Pockets meetup. I'm everywhere. So if we're on Facebook, I've got past clients and, you know, everyone's used me before, but a lot of them are friends of mine. You know, if they're in a mom's group and somebody's looking for an agent,

they're in there tagging me and saying called on. So, you know, your name comes up over and over and over again. People start to recognize it. So same thing with Bigger Pockets. Bigger Pockets has been wonderful lead source for me to get in with investors. and now I'm getting calls regularly because I'm in the forums and I'm posting all the time and people will write me and say, hey, I saw something you wrote four years ago and I really liked it and wanted to ask you some questions about Raleigh. And you never know where that business is going

from, but just kind of going out there and making sure you're in the places that people are looking. So if you want to work with investors, you should be on bigger pockets. If you want to work with retail buyers, maybe you should be on Facebook. You should definitely be in your own neighborhood and your community, getting to know other local businesses, getting good to be. with a lender. My lender gives me leads. They have a good website. And so if he gets leads for his website, he sends them to me because he knows I'm sending him all of my business. So you've got to make sure, like, you've got some good relationships built with other people. And that stuff does take time to ramp up. So I think what people think is that they're just going to go out there and start working.

You know, your first year, you might only have three or four clients. You might have no clients. You know, you've got to figure out a way to whether that as you get your name out there. So if you're new to an area, it's hard. You know, you don't have a big spirit of influence of people to trust you. You know, if you've been a stay-at-home mom for the last 15 years, it's hard to get your license and then have people see you differently than how they've always seen you. So you've got to go out there and put a very like professional face on. And if that's not who you've been for the last 15 years, it's hard to watch your friends or your family choose a different agent because they don't see you in that role. So you've got to have a thick skin to make sure that if somebody doesn't use you, that

you're okay, you've got the next person. Yeah, you know, all of that is super, super important. And I cannot agree enough with what you're saying because it isn't that hard to become an agent. The coursework, the tests, especially if you're good at taking tests, like, I don't think that the coursework really taught me anything about real estate in general, how to sell, how to work with clients, any of that. It taught me how to measure a house when there's a rock over there and a tree over there and like a lot in block system and every agent listening is like, yep, yep, yep. And everybody else is like, I don't understand that. Don't worry.

Once you go through the coursework, you'll know it too. But yeah, it doesn't teach you anything about that. And I think people see this giant commission that the real estate agents are getting when they buy or sell a house. And they're like, oh, I could do that. Well, it's a lot more than that. And it's not just, you know, you become an agent. And all of a sudden, everybody's like, wow, I didn't know an agent before.

Yeah, everybody you know is an agent. Yes, I got, for sure. In my social circle, there's probably 10 different real estate agents that my friends could choose to use, you know. So I've got to make sure that I'm always out there looking like the most successful, the busiest, the, you know, the one who's out there making stuff happen all the time. You know, because, yeah, people absolutely choose somebody else. Sometimes you're just in the right place at the right time or in the wrong place at the wrong time. And somebody buys a house with somebody else. And you're like, oh, I didn't know you were looking.

Or like, hey, I called you and, you know, you didn't answer your phone. So I just called the listing agent, you know, and therefore, then they bought a house. and you're like, wait, what just happened? It happens. So you've got to be able to not see those things as, you know, super detrimental and just be able to move on and go on to your next client. So trying to build up that client base is absolutely the hardest part about real estate. But if you've got a good social circle, if you can go out there and be a professional, it'll happen. And to give you kind of a, to give you the listeners, a scope of what, just what this looks like cumulatively over the years, right? I mean, Don has posted to bigger

pockets 2.1,000 times over the course of how many years you've been on bigger pockets? A few years, let's see. I mean, I'd probably say three, four years. I don't, time has a tendency to fly. Actually, it looks like it looks like a 2014. So 2,000 times over the course of five years. And that's just the posting on bigger pockets as not all the events that you should say, she just mentioned that she's attended and the always on, it sounds like, in receiving these calls and recognizing, hey, I've got to respond immediately or I'm going to lose business because a person's going to go move on to the next agent, right? That's just one component of your business is that those posts on bigger pockets

and adding value relentlessly to the discussions in your area. You know, that's, I mean, it's just like that's the scope of activity. It looks like that's needed to develop into this $300,000 a year real estate agent. And that, by the way, give more context, that means you're selling about $10 million or more in real estate annually, right? Now, this all sounds like a lot of work. Oh, wow, you have to post 2,000 times on bigger pockets. You don't have to, but I know that when I need somebody in Raleigh,

I see some, because I'm in the forums all the time, that is my job outside of the podcast, is to be in the forums and, you know, help people out and answer questions. And I see somebody, you know, saying, hey, I'm thinking about investing in this area or Raleigh. Does anybody know about them? I know to tag Don Brenigan, hey, you should reach out to Don Brennigan. She knows the Raleigh market. Or, you know, when I see people send me emails all the time.

Hey, do you know anybody? I'm looking for an agent here. Check out, Don. She can help you out. She knows the area. You know, she's been there forever. And I know this because I see you in there. Now, all that said, how much time do you spend working in your real estate business now?

Let's say on an average week or month. Well, now that I have a business partner, I actually work a lot less than I was the previous year. I mean, it was a grind. You know, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to say that ramping up your income like that is a breeze. You know, you do have to work hard. When I first started my business and I wasn't making much at all, I mean, from the time I woke up to the time I fell asleep, I was on my computer. I was marketing.

I was, you know, trying to just come up with new ideas of how I was going to run my business or how it's going to earn clients. So I think I just kind of worked all the time at the beginning. Now I've been able to dial it back a little bit. Trice, my business partner, she handles a lot more of the property management stuff now, so she can kind of take on the day-to-day operations of that. And before she came on, I was managing about 100 properties on my own, and I was selling about, you know, at that time, probably 40, 45 homes a year. I brought Trice on.

Last year, I was able to sell 57 homes. And then she sold a handful of homes, too. And she's doing the property management. So, you know, we're able, I think the two of us combined just had an exponential force on what we were able to do together. I don't know how you do that. I've got two deals going right now, and I am the mortgage guy called me up this morning,

and I'm like, wait, what property is this? Well, you also have another full-time job at Bicker Pockets. You've got kids, like, you know, there's always all these balls in the air. And I like that. Like, I'm a busy person because I like to be a busy person. And if I sit around for too long, I think I start to grow roots and I don't get up. I like to just keep it moving. But I like that every day I can go pick up my kids from school. So 3 o'clock, I tell all my clients, I have an appointment. I'm sorry, I can't make it.

We'll have to do that showing a different time, but I go and I pick up my kids. And then my husband doesn't come home from work until maybe 5.30, 6 o'clock or so. So if I need to show home in the evening, he can cover the kids at that point. But usually from like three to that time, it's me and the kids. We're hanging out. We're on the front porch, you know, playing outside. And I just love that time. So, you know, that's not always something I could do. before I had my business partner. And before I had to always be on my computer. Okay, kids, you play outside,

but I'm going to answer all these emails here. Type, type, type. So having her, we also now have an assistant that we, who's licensed and he's full time with us. So having his help means that if an investment property hit the market that I think looks good, I can send him to go see it, take a video of it. You know, I've taught him how to walk through and what to look for. And then I'll, you know, pull comps and stuff and send that to my clients.

So, you know, we're just being up like leverage other people's time at this point. But again, that's something you build up to. Right. You know, I had a conversation with Cody Berman from episode something on our show. I saw him this weekend. And he was telling me about his company. And now that he has got it up and running, it is running much smoother. But in the beginning, you know, he was putting in all this time. And now he's putting in 10 hours a week and still making full-time money, which is just amazing. And Cody was in episode 20, of the money show. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the four-hour workweek concept. I love the idea of leveraging out as much as you possibly can. So you can get your time back because that's the one thing we don't have,

you know, we can't make more of. Yeah, but it sounds like the price of this outcome, right? Is those years and years of 80-hour plus slogs that you're going through optimizing in every front, just working, figuring it out, experimenting all that kind of stuff. Is that right? You know, you say years and years, but it was really only about three or four years of really having put in the energy to get it going. And then I had a couple years of it was going. And now I'm just trying to keep all the balls in the air. That's when I started looking into getting an assistant. And now, now that I'm able to leverage other people's time, can I kind of coast a little bit more, which is nice. I mean, I'm 39 years old. I think I've got a pretty good work-life balance at this

point. You know, my kids are only in first grade. So they've got 11 more years of school left. I doubt that I'm going to go anywhere between now and then. So I have all this time that I can work the way I work now and be happy. And then by the time they graduate from college, my husband will also be eligible for his pension at that point. So worlds are always serious as the kids graduate. How are you applying all of this money that you're making in terms of your wealth building philosophy? You're buying real estate, but how are you, what's your kind of investment approach to back into that outcome you just described 11 years down the road? Yeah, we've got a few things going. So I do invest in rental properties. I've got five right now. They probably cash flow.

They don't cash flow a lot. It's the Raleigh market. It's not a high cash flow market. But when these homes are paid off, they'll be bringing in, you know, in today's dollars, about $8,000 worth of rent. So obviously some of that would go to expenses,

but I'd say 60% of that I could live off of once everything's paid off. And they're, you know, they're in various stages of being paid down. We also, I invest everything I can into any tax deferred account. So before the S corporation, I was able to invest in an SEP, IRA, so I did that. I've got the Roths now because of the income limitations where you're having to do the backdoor Roths. My husband has a 403B at work. He's got a pension. So basically any kind of

tax advantage account that we can put money into, we do. We've got the real estate. And then I've also gotten into doing a little bit of private lending. So there's a couple of flippers in our area that I'd lend money to. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make

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I like to be prepared. That's why I remember, 988, Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know, just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in Canada. When you're thinking about, when you're kind of describing this investment philosophy, let's back into like those early years. So you start your business, you have some debt, right?

What is your kind of approach look like in those first couple of, years of your business formation in terms of how you're applying any surplus money. So I was able to actually pay off most of the debt before I ever started my own business. Combining mine and my husband's income, I think kind of gave me enough breathing room that I was able to pay off what little debt I had back then. So the student loans, we just kept on track because the low interest rate, but we knocked out the car. One, I would say good thing about not making a lot of money as an assistant in the heyday of real estate before 2008 was that I made just enough money to pay off my debt. I did not make enough money to run out and go get a

brand new house and a Mercedes or anything, because I watched a lot of people do that. You know, you're making $200,000 a year and you inflate your lifestyle to accommodate that. Well, you know, 2008, nine comes and now you're making $40,000 a year. Like, that's a big cut. So I was just making enough to aggressively pay off debt. I bought my first house back in 2003 and I did that with like no money down at all because banks would still do that at that. that point and, you know, just started just stocking money away in little increments once the debt was paid off. So I live fairly frugally, you know, frugal for my standards versus, you know, when I was in my 20s, my husband was pretty good about listening to me when I said, hey, we can't spend

money. This is why, you know, I had the spreadsheets going. I had the payoffs here and, you know, the spending trackers here. You know, I just kind of kept track of everything that was coming in and out, which was good because you could see the debt number is getting smaller and you could see the bank account's getting bigger. And that is super motivating. Yeah, I love it. I think this is all fantastic. Fantastic stuff. It sounds like you kind of approach this zero net worth position around the time you're starting your business or a little bit beforehand. Is that accurate or am I? I think I was at definitely a zero net worth when, well, probably not a zero net worth. That's not true because I had a couple of houses when I started my business. So yeah, I had, I bought my first property in

2003 and I lived in that one and then I turned it into a rental property in 2006. And then I helped my parents buy two properties in 2004 that I eventually bought from them. So I had a handful at that point and that's actually why I decided to get into property management is because the sales market was so flat and nothing was selling. So I figured, why don't I just made into properties for other people? It's gone well for myself. And so that's why I went in that direction. So I ended up helping a bunch of accidental landlords at that point. And that's how I grew the business in the beginning on the property management side. Okay. Let's take a moment on that first house then. Was that an important component of your wealth building overall approach or was that relatively minor in the scheme of things

relative to your other investment approaches and income generation? I would say it helps on two fronts, right? You build equity in this house and then you're also not paying rent to somebody else, right? So my first house, like literally, I paid nothing to get into the property. 2003 was a great year for being able to just, you know, do whatever when it came to getting a mortgage. I had a first and second loan on it in 80-20, and I paid $1,000 for my refrigerator because it was new construction and it didn't come with a fridge. And that was all it took for me to get into that house. But what I did was I got a couple of roommates. So it was a three-bedroom townhome and I rented out two of the rooms. And I virtually lived for free in the other one. So I wasn't paying rent somewhere else. I had

roommates covering my mortgage. I was building the equity. And, you know, prices did go up after the recession. So, you know, I think I paid $130 for it. And now it's worth maybe about $180. But that one's probably done the worst out of everything that I've owned. But because I put no money in it, somebody else is paying my mortgage for me. I'll take the $3 180 when it's done. No or very low risk, huge leverage. And three, you know, where have we heard this story before on while-goating journeys of entrepreneurs and people who are financially very early in life. This sounds like she's talking about house hacking, but Brandon didn't invent that term until 2015. So I don't know what this is.

Yep. And then I moved out of that house and kept it as a rental property. And because I had bought it as an owner-occupant, I had those wonderful financing terms. I moved out of that one and bought another house, not too far away, but a single-family house. And brought my roommates with me. And so they helped me pay down the second mortgage. I refinanced that one right before I moved out to shorten the loan term for that, just so that it would be paid off by the time my kids graduated from high school. So I was trying to stagger some properties to be paid off at certain times.

So I should have two paid off by the time they graduate from high school. And then I can start paying down the others should I want to. But they're all 4% or less. So I'm really in no hurry. Fantastic. And are your rents covering all the mortgage payments? Yeah. Plus some. Okay. Yeah, they do cash flow. You know, of course, I'm doing my own property management. But, you know, I'd say between the five of them, I'm probably cash flowing. I mean, it doesn't work out to be a ton, maybe $12,000 a year or so. So. But still, over five properties, that that includes the mortgage pay down. And I'm assuming that you know how to calculate for expenses and CAFX and all of those other things that some people may forget to account for.

But what I will say is that, you know, yeah, they're only cash flowing that much. But I mean, the appreciation in those has been awesome. I don't think it's Denver level appreciation, but it is definitely awesome for our area. And my plan is to just keep these properties until I die. And then my kids can sell them and they'll enjoy a wonderful stepped up basis and not have to pay any taxes. And they can sell it and go live on an island somewhere. So your overall plan here, it sounds like at least one proponent of this to pay off the mortgages on these properties over the next 10 years, 11 years, I think you said. Is that the bulk of your approach?

Is that how you're applying all of the excess surplus in your life? No, I do not prepay any of those mortgages. And I kind of regret getting a 15-year loan and a 20-year loan on two of them that I did, just because it creates a little bit more of a debt-to-income ratio problem if you're trying to get additional mortgages. It hasn't been an issue, so it's fine. But, you know, if I really wanted to ramp up on that, it could create an issue. But, you know, if your interest rate is 4%, I mean, there's literally just no reason to pay that off. And, you know, on a rental property that is going against your income. So of course, that's money you don't pay taxes on. You know, you get to account for depreciation. So tax-wise, it's a wonderful benefit for me to have these rental properties.

You know, and if my kids can inherit them and not pay any taxes on them with that wonderful loophole, that's just awesome. So what are you doing with the surplus cash then? Are you buying more rentals? So I started doing some private lending. I have not found a great deal for a rental property that I've wanted to buy, partly because I have so many investors that I'm working with that I have to find stuff for them. So, you know, it's kind of the shoemaker has no shoes sometimes. So I'm spending so much time helping other people find stuff. I don't have a whole lot of time to find my own. But I had a couple of flippers in my market approach me and did small amounts. There was one who I've got like 50 out to and another one I've got 40 out too. And so I kind of just tested the waters with that

a bit. But, you know, it's 12% interest. So it's like better than what most things would return and fairly low risk as compared to stock market. Okay, so I want to unpack this a little bit right now. Private lending is when you are acting as the bank. So how did you meet these flippers? You said it's relatively low risk. Do you have a first position lean on the property? There's like a thousand question that throw at you.

Because when I have done a little bit of private lending as well, and I lent more to the person than the deal, I know the person isn't going to default. And if they do, then I have an amazing property. I just don't want to own that amazing property. I'd rather have the money back. You're lending out at 12% interest. And the going rate is like four and a half or five-ish at the time of this recording.

So how did you find these people? And how is it low risk to you? One, it's in my market. So I know these areas, right? So I know these houses. I know the people. I actually did meet both of them. Probably through bigger pockets.

One of them was a client of mine who bought a property. and he flipped it and he was new at the time. But he did well on it. He had taken on a partner for that. He did well on it. And then he just, he decided to just quit his job. He had a nice W-2 job and just said, forget it. I'm going all in on real estate. And he started flipping full-time. So I lent some money to him to kind of keep a couple projects going. I have a second position lien on two properties for that money. It's not based on an individual project right now. He just borrows it for six months at a time. I've got a second position lien on two of his long-term rentals that he's holding, and the first position loan is well under what he could sell the property for. So if we had to foreclose on that,

there should be enough to pay off both first and second positions on those properties. And then the other one that I lent forward to you actually just got the check back today. He closed on it on Friday, and I got a check today. And it was funny because it came like FedEx. And I opened the envelope. It's from an attorney. And I was like, oh, gosh, what did I get today? When I opened it, it was a check. I was like, oh, they got. Sometimes it's very important-looking envelopes can be scary. A lot of times I've noticed talking to investors that they'll do this kind of lending inside of an IRA. Are you doing that? Or is this with after-tax dollars? This is with after-tax dollars. I am interested in learning more about that, though. Yeah, I've got probably just now enough in any one individual account to be worthwhile to lend out to somebody else. But because I do like to diversify, you know, all of those tax advantage accounts are mostly in VTSAX.

Very simple. I don't know enough about the start market really to do anything different. Nope. It makes perfect sense. The advantage to doing it with a IRA is that you don't have to pay income tax on interest. It's always at a high tax rate. But awesome. So anything else besides the private lending or is that kind of your major approach with your surpluses right now? So I am looking for a good flip property in our area to do myself. So I've run quite a few renovations for clients who needed to renovate their rental properties or, you know, I've helped somebody buy something that needs a lot of work and to get it rent ready. So I've got plenty of experience in rehabbing homes, but I have not found a good project for myself yet. I've been making a lot of offers, but nothing has come to fruition yet. So I've actually got a pretty good cash position right now, just waiting for a good

deal to get into you. Awesome. The flips are my favorite. I really love walking into a house being like, this is so gross. I can't wait to make this pretty. I like that same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think you're coming at it from a position of extreme advantage because you've run these properties for, or you've run these projects for other people. So you know, oh, this is the carpeting guy who never shows up on time. I'm not going to use him. This is the, you know, the electrician who shows up early and is always on time and on budget. And, you know, that's, that's a huge advantage for you. Oh yeah. I have great subcontractors that I can use, you know,

just from the years of having the property management business. I've vetted quite a few people. So, yeah, I've got some great subs to work with. It really is just a matter of finding a deal that makes sense. It is a very competitive market here. So a lot of these are going for over where I can see anyone making any money. Yeah, I don't understand how some of these houses are being purchased right now, but that's a different story.

Okay. Is there anything else you want to talk about? in increasing your income because this, I mean, I don't know how to say this without making it sound like I'm belittling what you did, but there's not a huge knowledge investment into becoming a real estate agent to actually getting your license. There's a huge knowledge investment into becoming a successful agent, but to actually get your license is really just not that hard. It's not that much work. You're not going to school for four years to get a real estate license in Colorado, which is one of the strictest, it's 168 hours. That's like four weeks

of rather leisurely time. And I did a big research project on this. In some states, it's like 40 hours. Oh. So there's not a huge time commitment. You said maybe $5,000 for the first year. There's not a huge money commitment. And you turned $5,000 into $300,000 last year. I'd do that. Yeah. Yeah. I take that all day. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's not a huge, you know, there's a very low barrier to entry. And I was thinking the other day, and I was picturing all the people who live on my block. And my block of homes probably goes for about $400 to $450,000 if you were to sell a house here. And so, you know, good incomes, but not great for a lot of people here. And most of the people bought them in the, I'd say, low to bid $300. And everybody on my block is in some sort of sales. position. I mean, there's a handful of accountants and teachers and stuff like that. But for the most part, at least one member of the household is in some form of sales. And I've realized, like, you know, I really think to be able to increase your income, there has to not be a ceiling on it. So if you're a teacher, there's a ceiling on how much you're going to make and somebody else is going to dictate

how much that is. But if you're an entrepreneur or if you're in sales where you get commissions and bonuses or whatever the case may be, you know, there's no ceiling on that. And I think that those are the types of jobs that people should go out there and try to get if you really want to ramp it up. To be able to increase your income, there has to not be a ceiling. That's like brilliant. And sales, there really is no ceiling. I think you should be to be a great real estate agent, I think you should be knowledgeable about how a house works, how a mortgage works, how the area in general. But you know, you don't have to know a lot to be a really successful real estate agent. And I don't, please don't think that I'm talking smack about real estate agents.

I'm an agent too. You know, I see some really great agents out there who just have a really good knowledge of their local market. They don't know how a house works. And, you know, that's okay too. But there's just sales is wonderful. Obviously, I'm partial to real estate. But like real estate is just, it's not that hard. And there's so much income that could be made.

But, you know, like you pointed out, you did the work up front. Yeah. You busted your butt. You did all of this in the beginning. and then, you know, once you get the ball rolling, it's like a snowball down a hill. Once you get it rolling, you can't even stop it? People just call you all the time. Hey, Don, can you help me buy a house? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Once the ball gets rolling, it's, it's, you know, I won't say easy,

but it is relatively easy to get the clients, you know, at that point, it's just managing your time and making sure everything is serviced properly. So, and that's a hard part for somebody to get started is just to get to that point. But once you get to that point, it's awesome. You know, it's very easy, I think, to kind of keep all that momentum going. after you do a bunch of deals, you're going to have the process down, you're going to know what the pitfalls are and, you know, how to guide your clients and stuff. So I think for people who are just starting out, it's maybe a good idea to be somebody's assistant or to work on a team where you have a little bit more support because if you're just kind of thrown out there and said,

all right, you know, go make it happen with no support. I think a lot of people can't do that. And some people can, but a lot of people cannot. So, you know, sales in general, and yes, I'm partial also to real estate. But, you know, I know pretty wealthy insurance sales people or software sales or pharmaceutical sales. And they just have, like I said, no ceiling on their income. So as hard as they're willing to work. Ooh, right there. As hard as they're willing to work, it doesn't just come to you.

You didn't just hang out your shingle. It'd be like, okay, come on. Where's my business? And I'll also point out that I see a correlation here between your life choices and how you're spending just as a household can impact your ability to go after that because there's no ceiling. There's also no floor in a lot of these gigs

that can have this unlimited potential or high income. And so the fact that you guys had a household budget, you know, you talked about spreadsheets who touched on that very lately, but you were able to keep your household running, even on $16,000 just from your income, down from what sounded like 60 a few years prior on that. That's a set of life choices that most of middle class America don't make, right, in terms of running their household on one income,

so that you could go into this new role, And now that has led to a path in less than a decade where your household income is likely to be close to, if not above, the top 1% for all of America. Yeah. Right? And that's the difference, I think, that comes in there that allowed you to propel towards that,

or at least that was one important factor, I think. Yeah, you're right. It wasn't just financial independence through the income side of it, which is, you know, obviously probably where I was able to do the best job. But in those early years, you should have seen me Sunday mornings. I was running around getting newspapers so I could grab all the coupons out.

And then I'm, you know, on the coupon blogs figuring out, like, what are the sales for the week? And, you know, I had my grocery budget down to $250 a month. And I just, I was very regimented about a lot of things. And saving money was, like I said, as frivolous as I was in certain areas in my 20s when I wanted to dial it in and take care of stuff, like I really did. Yeah, I mean, if you hadn't house hacked, right? Instead, if you had, if you had both been making 60K or you and your husband, right? And you were spending $100,000. 11,000, right, with the house and the two new cars and all that kind of stuff, this wouldn't have been inconceivable. And you'd be listening to the show right now thinking this person is full of it.

That's not even a potential outcome for me and my family because we've got bills to pay with these things, right? And that's the difference. I think that, you know, this whole world of opportunity was available to you in part, in one small part because of your discipline on the other side of the equation. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the big trick is, right, don't spend more than you make. It really is just a math problem. And aim for a lot less. What is your annual spending? Do you know, ish?

Yeah, it's probably around $100,000 a year between... Okay, but you're making $300. Yeah, I would say... I mean, some of that I think is also going into, like, you know, Roth IRAs and things like that. So it's maybe a little bit less than that. You know, our mortgage is reasonable of $1,700 a month, which to me, when I was 20, I thought that was insane.

I was like, you know, I thought if you could commit $1,700 a month, man, you better be like a doctor or something. And now, like, I'm here. It's very comfortable and I'm able to save money and it is very relative to what you make, of course. Well, but you're also making like doctor level salaries. Today, but the thing about real estate is that all of that could poof in an instant go away if we hit another recession. So I have to be very careful about what I spend and make sure we save that money. And again, you know, when that last recession hit, my coworkers were making in the 200, 250 range per year. They were doing awesome, but they were spending that money just as fast as they could bake it. And so when that recession hit, I mean, you know, their income maybe dropped to $40, maybe $60,000 a year, which is reasonable for most people to live off of.

But when you're used to making $200 and now you've got that $2,000 a month house payment and you've got that $600 a month car payment, like, you know, you're not making enough. to cover your, to live that same lifestyle that you used to be accustomed to. Just making sure you don't get accustomed to the two finer things in life, I think is the key. Because yeah, 300, you know, I could afford to do a lot of things, but I don't because I want to make sure that if my income drops to 100 next year, that it's fine. Or if it drops the 50, or if I don't make anything, if I lose my license for some crazy reason, you know, worst case scenarios of what could possibly happen to you, I want to make sure being broke is not going to be the ultimate income. Yeah, and you know, I'm glad you make that point. I said you're making doctor level salaries.

You're like, well, it could go away. Yes, it could. And I hope it doesn't. But right now you're making 300 and spending 100. So you are saving 66% of your income. Plus your husband's income. Plus your husband. Well, we're not even talking about him. He's not on the show. This is the Dawn show. 66% of your income, you're saving. You're not spending and, you know, IRAs and all that other stuff, at least 66%. So if that 66% went away, your life doesn't change. If 70% went away, your life isn't going to be a huge difference than what it is right now. And I think that that kind of, well, I'm making 300, so I should be able to have fun with it. Well, yeah, that's great, but that's not guaranteed. And that's in anybody's.

My salary isn't guaranteed because bigger pockets isn't going to go to business tomorrow. But what if it did? Like what if all of a sudden we decided, you know what we don't want to be here more. Sorry, Mindy, thanks. Then my income isn't guaranteed. Having a cushion is so important because even with a regular W-2 job, your income isn't guaranteed. Yeah, I actually think one of probably the most positive things that happened to me was not making a lot of money in those early years because I learned and I could see what was going on around me and I learned from other people's mistakes instead of having to go out and make my own because I was kind of right there at that cusp, you know, like I had gotten my debts

paid down, my car was paid off, you know, the suit loans get paid off, everything gets paid off. Now you're starting to feel wealthier. You're starting to feel like, oh, I can go out to eat today, no big deal. You know? And I think once that happens is when that lifestyle inflation starts to happen. Yeah, well, then I had a very positive 20s too with that. No income. You learn from those hardships.

Yeah, you do. Okay, so should we go on to the famous four now? Let's do it. Okay. These are the same four questions and one command that we ask of all of our guests. Don, are you ready? Yes. What is your favorite finance book? I would say secrets of a millionaire mind. I liked it because it was very, it was about changing like your view on things. Basically, if you view yourself as a poor person, you will be a poor person. If you

view yourself as a millionaire, you will act like when, you know, and it was really about changing like your mindset on how you truly see yourself. You know, if you find that you are just, you know, somebody who's never going to get ahead because the world is out to get you, then that is what is going to happen. So I think it was a good, like, Mineship book. Awesome. I'll have to check that out. I don't think I've read that one. Good one. All right. So what was your biggest money mistake? I would say buying cars that I did not need to buy. I have probably had five cars since I was 16, which at this point is not terrible because I'm 39 now. So that's what, 23 years of driving five cars. Doesn't sound awful. well, the first four of them were in like the first 10 years. So, well, I guess I've had six cars.

So, you know, I got rid of perfectly good working cars because I just didn't like them anymore or, you know, I got into real estate. I had a Ford Explorer when I got into real estate. And because it was a two-door car, I decided I should get rid of it and get a four-door car to make it more comfortable for my clients, except for I didn't drive clients around. So it just really didn't make any sense to do that. I was selling new homes. So it made no sense at all. So I definitely could have made do with what I had for sure. Getting on additional debt and making big car payments, not a good idea. How much do you think that might have set you back? You know, my mom actually helped me out a few times along the way. So if it weren't for her, I'd probably be a lot more setback. But I probably spent at least $20,000 on one car that I just absolutely didn't need.

Yeah, so easily 20,000 compounded over the last 20 years. Does that work out too, Scott? A couple of bucks. Yes, Scott, do that math right in your head. So what kind of car do you drive now related question because you're a real estate agent? I am a real estate agent. So I drive the super fancy as Honda Odyssey minivan. I generally don't have clients in my car. You know, we're meeting people at places and stuff. If somebody really wants to get my car, they can. But I warn people, it's sticky. I've got kids.

You know, they're seven. They're kind of gross. And that's what I drive. And so I don't look like a very successful like I see everyone else. there and their Audi's and their Mercedes and their B&Ws and they're clean and they're fancy. And it's lovely. Yes, they do look successful, but I prefer my paid-off minivan. It's like driving around in my living room. It's wonderful. They look successful, but are they successful? They just maybe have a really big car payment. Okay. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? And I'm going to ask this as a two-part question, starting out on their financial journey and starting out as a real estate agent. As far as starting out on your financial journey, I would say to really work on your savings as a muscle. I think Mr. Money Mustache talks

about that, like where he says, you know, your savings reflex is a muscle that needs to be worked out. And I think if I had done a better job of just putting small amounts of money away, you know, like I said, when I finally did do that, seeing the bank account balances grow and the debt get smaller was really, really motivating, you know, which made me do better as time went on. So where I was spending a lot more money in the beginning, as I saw the benefits of actually not going out to eat every day or spending money on cars that I didn't need to buy and putting that money into something that would actually grow a little bit, made me want to do it more. So it is kind of like working out. Like when you start to see the benefits, it becomes less of a chore and a hassle

and more of something you really want to do. And then as far as starting out on real estate, I really think you should start out working with somebody else so that you have a really good support system. So whether it's an assistant or under a team or even just under a good broker who provides a lot of support and training, you know, I think a lot of times people want to rush out and, you know, work for 100% commission companies or something like that that, you know, don't take a big piece of the pie. But when they do that, if that comes along with a lack of training, you know, it's a huge mistake. Because like you said, when you go and get your license, all they do is really teach you how to stay out of real estate. state jail, they don't really tell you how to run a business. So you might know the legalities and the ins and outs of that, but they don't tell you how to get a client or how to take a contract

from contract to close and who do you need to hire? You know, where are the inspectors? Who are the good inspectors? You know, all that kind of stuff is just things you learn over time. And it's better instead of trying to figure out that stuff on your own to, you know, work with somebody else who's already a pro. I would second that and third that and vote for you a hundred times if there was voting available on a podcast because I was that person. I was, oh, I'm not going to go and get my real estate license because they're going to take 50% of my commission. But then 50% of a deal is better than 0% of a deal. And when you first get into that contract, you're like, oh, God, what do I do now? And I've got, you know, maybe you've got an experienced agent who's asking you for things and you're like,

I don't even know what those words mean. You don't have to sign on for a team and be there for the rest of your life. It's not indentured servitude. You're there to learn and you're not learning anything in real estate school. You're learning how to pass the licensing test. And that's kind of really all that you're learning. And I wish they'd revamp it, you know, because this is such a huge part of somebody's financial picture helping somebody buy a house that I helped somebody buy a house. I got a $9,000 commission. I should know what I'm doing if you're going to pay me $9,000. Yep. Okay, Scott. This is the most difficult question of the famous floor here.

What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Oh, this is the whole reason I wanted to do the podcast. Nice, yes. All right, what do you call a cow with no legs? Ooh, I don't know what. Brown beef. Nice. What do you call a cat with two legs?

I don't know what. Clean beef. Nice. I got this from the six-year-old that lives next door to me. That are great. She made me laugh for like an hour. Oh my goodness. I haven't heard the lean beef.

I heard the ground beef, but I forgot the answer. Okay. I've got one this week too, actually. So this kid swallow some coins and gets taken to the hospital, right? And the parents are worried sick, but they have to go home for the night and the kid stays over it. So they call in the morning and the doctor says, and they say, how's my kid doing? And the doctor says, no change yet.

I like that one. That was a good buddy joke, right? Scott, you need to have some kids so you can share with these jokes. Yesterday, Daphne said, Dad, your dad jokes are terrible. Like, yeah, that's kind of the definition of a dad joke. So my kids and the neighbor's kid, they ask Alexa all the time for jokes. And so we've come up with a handful of good ones. Yeah, we just got one of those things.

maybe it's Alexa. And the girls are just sitting there all the time talking to her. Stop. Okay, Dawn, where can people find out more about you? All right. So my website is trillwoodrealtie.com. I'm always on bigger pockets. I'm a moderator there now, so that's part of my job also is to be in the forums

and chat with people. And really the only social media I use regularly is Facebook. I have the Instagram and Twitter and all that stuff, but Facebook is where I will actually spend some time. And my profile is Gio. but the O is a zero. So G, zero heels, as in Chapel Hill, tar heels. Nice.

Awesome. Okay, Don, thank you so much for your time today. This was really awesome. I love this story because not just I'm a real estate age, but I love the story because it's an easy way. Easy is not the right word, Scott. It is a repeatable way. It is a repeatable way that does not cost a lot in time or money to get started

that you can increase your income with no ceiling. Yeah, it's a great alternative if you're feeling stuck. Like your career has a ceiling or something like that, you know, to begin exploring maybe moving one spouse into this type of career with this kind of, and this type of commission thing. And what a great place to learn how to become an agent when we're already talking about real estate all day long anyways.

Right. Well, and, you know, we didn't even get into this. You don't have to quit your job to become a real estate agent. You can take your coursework over the nights and weekends. You can, I mean, when are you working as a real estate agent? Nights and weekends, because you're helping people who have jobs buy houses. And when do those people have time to go look at houses? Not in during the weekday.

It's nights and weekends. And it's just, you know, you can start off. You can figure it out. You have one closing, maybe two closings. And you have made all of your money back. Yep. So you just really have to have that first one. And it's, I mean, you can represent yourself in your own first property deal and then figure out,

hey, I like this, I hate this, you know, whatever. But you're, you kind of make back everything. And then your ongoing costs are not that expensive. Yeah. Outside of, you've got like licensing fees and MLS dues and stuff like that. So the cost, the ongoing costs are not terrible. It's, you know, maybe very basic, at least in our area, between licensing and paying your board dues and stuff, maybe $2,000 a year.

You've got to take continuing education credits. You've got to renew your license. You've got to pay your... MLS dues. I was trying to think. I'm like, I know I have expenses, but what are they? Yeah. So very little upfront cost, very little ongoing cost.

If it's interesting, try it out. At least look and see how much time it's going to take you to get licensed. But this is absolutely repeatable. So, okay, John, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. Thank you, guys. It was great talking to you, too. It was awesome talking to you, too.

And I'll see you around the forums. Yes, you will. Okay, bye-bye. All right, bye. All right, that was Don Brennigan. Mindy, what did you think? You know, Scott, I love her story. I love that she didn't decide to just stay in this comfortable job

that wasn't really making a lot of money. She decided to go out and get a real estate job. She didn't stay in that comfortable position where she was making, what, like $30,000 a year? She saw that other people could make a lot more money, and she took the leap. She made all the choices that she had to make to get to the point where she is now at multiple six figures. Is that how you say $300,000 a year?

Multiple six figures while still spending very low six figures. I mean, she doesn't have to limit herself to, you know, $10,000 a year or $25,000 a year and still on the path to financial independence. And I think I definitely want to point out also the frugality component and the basic money management that I think was, a helpful contributor enabling her to pursue this career. Yeah, the foundation that her parents gave her by not hiding how much things cost really put her leaps and bounce ahead of where everybody else was. And, you know, she still made poor money choices, but she made smaller poor money choices than probably a lot of her friends did.

Yeah, absolutely. And that just all builds up and leads you to this financial position of peace and security. Well, should we get out of here? We should. From episode 72 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, this is Mr. Scott Trench and me, Mindy Jensen, signing off.