BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 74: Making Money From a Legitimate Side Hustle With Mark Wills

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

Side hustle is a big topic on BiggerPockets. But finding the right one—and one that isn’t a scam—can be difficult. Today’s episode focuses on not only a legitimate side hustle, but also one that involves real estate AND can be as much or as little as you want it to be. Best of all, the most popular time to use this side hustle is at night and on the weekends. Signing agents work when their clients don’t—meaning they’re busiest at night and on the weekends—perfect for an actual side hustle. Startup costs are extremely low. They hover around $1,000. Working four to six jobs will pay off your initial investment! Mark Wills shares what you need to get started and how to find jobs once you’re all ready to go. If you’re looking to generate extra income, this episode is right up your alley. In This Episode We Cover: What a notary signing agent is The only requirement to become a signing agent How he became one What signing services exist for Biggest skillset you need to be a notary signing agent Startup cost when doing appointments On doing 10 to 15 appointments a day Who are not ideal candidates for the position The importance of paying attention to details On getting a notary commission The importance of taking a course to become a notary signing agent Other ways to make money through notary commissions outside of loan signing Kind of salary for signing appointments Attorney states versus escrow states And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Money Podcast 03: Cutting Your Grocery Bill in Half with Erin Chase from $5 Dinners BiggerPockets Money Podcast 04: Eliminating Over $30,000 in Debt Through Extreme Organization with Former State Trooper Rosemarie Groner Newsletter Signup - I Will Teach You To Be Rich The Jerry Springer Show Bogleheads forum Bogleheads Investing Advice and Info Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast show number 74. Once you learn how to get the leads, which is as important as doing the closing itself, right? These signing services are best way of free lead gen just because you live by the location. But the point I'm trying to make is, you know, it's all about lead generation. So if you're asking me how many signings you can do, actually is based upon how many hours you can fit in the day. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place.

This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcasts. How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen. How you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great. Today's show is going to be a little bit of a departure from our normal interview-style format. But I think that you, the listeners, are going to like it anyways. Today we're going to interview Mark Wills from LoansigningSystem.com to learn about a concept of becoming a signing agent and a notary and how that can be one of the better potential side hustles that we've come across so far, you and I. Yeah, you know, every mortgage needs a signing agent. And a signing agent is somebody, it's a notary, you have to be a notary who is familiar with mortgage documents. This is a neutral third party who walks you through, walks the borrower through the documents, showing them where to sign an initial and date. and yada yada, because if you don't get every single thing right, you can hold up loan funding.

But what I really like about this concept is the low cost of entry into a fairly high demand field. You can literally be set up and ready to rock in under $1,000. And, you know, that's, I think that's so important because I don't want to present side hustles or, you know, ways to make additional income that are going to cost you a lot of money. When I first got my real estate license, it was something like $3,000. before I started making any money. That's a huge amount of money. But here you go for less than $1,000.

Mark will give you some of the information, some of the things that you need to set up a signing company. And it's like you need a printer and some pens. I've got a billion pens in my house. I mean, just the barrier to entry is so low. It just seems almost like a no-brainer. Yeah. And Mark is really an expert in understanding what it takes

to kind of get it break into the. field and how to get, you know, enter into it and then potentially scale it up. And he has a lot of experience dealing with folks that are trying to do this nationwide. So we're privileged to have him on the show today. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going. And more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress.

Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place.

So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love Matt, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow every small business owner ends up doing it.

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I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger, Leen or Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for Parenting Perspective, and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals,

podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. Mark Wills, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. How are you today? Oh my gosh. I'm like, ooh, we're excited to be here. Thank you so much. But yeah, super, super excited. I am super excited to have you. A little bit of backstory. Scott, I met Mark at the Traffic and Conversion Summit a couple of weeks or months ago in San Diego. I was talking to Nick Loper.

and Mark comes up and this like just massive ball of energy. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, what is it you do? And he told me about he has a company that teaches people how to be a signing agent. And I'm not going to tell you how to do this because I'm not the expert. That's why we brought Mark on the show. Mark, what is a signing agent? Great question. So a notary signing agent is when a notary public is hired at the end of the loan transaction process.

So every single home buyer or refinancer has to sign their loan documents. And when their loan documents are being signed, it has to be signed in front of a notary. But a notary who understands loan documents and mortgage documents is called a sign agent. So a notary signing agent signs mortgage paperwork for buyers and refinancers on every mortgage transaction. Okay. And so do you have to be a notary to be a signing agent? So the only requirement, literally the only requirement to be a signing agent is to be a notary public. And that's frankly almost the easiest part because 75% of states in this country require nothing more than an application to be a notary.

Like you literally, like you're applying for a credit card, you would send an application in and they do a background check. And if you pass a background check, then your state issues you a commission. And then there's about 25% of states that actually require a course, which is super easy. The state of California is the longest of those, as we can imagine. And you just have to pass a little 30 question quiz. But yeah. And so being the notary is the only requirement. being a signing agent, and it's super duper easy to be a notary. And once you get your notary

commission, you just got to learn how to walk a borrower through a set of loan documents. That's it. So is the signing agent actually explaining the documents? By law, we're not allowed to explain anything. That's the loan officer's job. That's a real estate agent's job. We're not selling the product. All we're doing is guiding the borrowers through the loan documents where they need a date, sign an initial, which essentially is a contract between the lender and the borrower, paying back the mortgage terms. And so a signing agent says, look, man, you need to sign here, initial here, date here, this form is blank. You need to fill out this form. So a signing agent just guides the borrower. There's zero selling because the selling's already been done by the lender,

which is actually against the law for us to explain anything. Our job is to guide a borrower through the documents as an impartial third witness to the transaction. Okay, so Mark, how did you become a signing agent? How did you get into this whole thing? I mean, did you lay in at night as you were six and be like, oh, I hope I get to be a signing agent when I grow up. No, great question. I kind of tripped into it, you know, there's not any crazy story outside of that. You know, I had a friend who said, Mark, there's a notary who know who know who are through loan documents can get paid up to $150 for an appointment. And from there, I just kind of dove into it. You know, I had friends who were in the mortgage industry and I'm like, wow,

is this true? You know, can a notary really make $150 per signing appointment? And once I found out, it was legitimate, you know, and now what I call it the best kept secret and really, estate is once I found out these notaries were going around town, signing loan documents, and that was true. I was like, I'm all in. So I'm a kind of guy who's once I'm into something, I'm all in, and I just kind of figured it out on my own and took a couple years to really get me to where I am. But yeah, I mean, there's nothing outside of just once I heard about it, I needed to know more about it. Okay, so how long does a signing take? You're saying I can make $150. Is that like a five-hour signing? Yeah, great question. So the actual appointment with

the bar, when you're sitting down at the bar, we're at the closing table. it takes roughly an hour to sign the loan documents. Because once again, we're not there to sell the product that's already been sold. We're just in there saying, ma'am, sir, you need to sign here, date their initial here. So it takes roughly about an hour, maybe an hour and a half as you get better. Obviously, that time goes down less. But what I will say, and one of the main reasons signing agents exist is for the benefit of the borrower, meaning that not all borrowers and go to the title company or the escrow company,

they need a notary to come to their house. So there is some travel time to get to the borrower's location, sign the dollar. and then travel back to the location to return the document. So when you're actually sitting with the borrower, it's legitimately an hour, hour and 15. But sometimes, you know, it'll be a 20 minute drive time to the borrower's location, 20 minutes back. So, you know, all in all, I mean,

it should be about a three-hour round-trip appointment. And you can make anywhere between $75 to $200 for that signing appointment. Wow. Crazy. Yeah, no, this. Can you do this when you have a full-time job? The answer is absolutely. And, you know, banks don't lend to people who don't have jobs. Fair enough. Like,

banks not saying, you get a loan, even though you don't have a job. And the point is that most people work, right? So when the point I'm trying to make is most people only have time to sign paperwork, the paperwork after they get off of work, which is evenings and weekends. So most signing appointments are evenings and weekends, meaning if you have a full-time job during the week, you're obviously available evenings and weekends, too, because that's when borrowers are off of work ready and available to sign loan documents. So even if you're- Is that what most of your signings are? Most of your signings are evenings Yeah, 100%. And what I was about to allude to is even if you're a full-time signing agent, most of your appointments are evening weekends for the exact same reason I just said. So even if you were to be a full-time signing agent, it's not like all of a sudden you're eight to five's crazy busy. You know, the reason that we exist and the reason that like,

one of the reasons we exist is to make it convenient for the homeowner. You know what? I can't take time off of work today. So someone's got to come by my house at 7.30 because I put my kids down at seven, and I can sign my paperwork 730 to 830 tonight. So that literally happens thousands of times a night every single night in this country where a notary is just thrown in some loan docks in their car, driving away and knocking out a loan signing. Okay, so the reason that I wanted to have you on this show is because this sounds like such an easy way to make a few extra dollars. And, you know, one of the things that we talk about on this show so many times is financial independence. And a lot of people discover the concept of financial independence from a position of debt.

And if you're making $200, even if you do this like one closing a night, that's $1,000 a week that you could throw at your debt. That's $4,000 a month that you could throw at your debt. Now, do you just say, I want to be an signing agent and then boom, you're a signing agent? Yes. I mean, well, literally, if you have a notary commission and you learn the skill set, you're a signing agent. I think what maybe you're alluding to a little bit, you know, is, you know, how do you get signing appointments? And there's different ways of getting signing appointments. You can either get it directly through mortgage officers, real estate agents. The most popular way of getting signings is through something called the signing service. So once again, I always call this

the best kept secret in real estate, because there's so many moving parts that people don't know about. And there's a huge industry, which are called signing services. And what signing services exists for, it's by placing signing agents at signing appointments that are predetermined. So, for instance, an escrow officer or title officer would call up a signing service, say, hey, I have a two o'clock appointment in downtown Denver. I need a signing agent there at two. Can you find one for me? So the onus of finding the notary is actually off the escrow title officer's plate. It's onto a company or a service called a signing service, and their job is to get the signing agent. So if you get low,

located through signing services, which is the most popular, which is kind of like an Uber format where the signing service will find a notary that's closest to the borrower's house. That should make some logical sense, right? It's not like they're finding a signing agent that happens to be like 80 miles from the bar war's location. They're searching signing agents that live as close to the location as possible. So if you're a signing agent who lives near the location, you get the first paying an offer for the business. And that's the most popular way of getting business in our industry, along with knowing a real estate agent who's a friend who has a closing or a mortgage officer or a transaction coordinator. So once you become a signing agent,

it's just now trying to figure out how do you get to business? And there's many different avenues of getting it. And so if someone's hearing this for the first time, there's, you know, a handful different avenues that you can get business like just like that. Can I decline those appointments? If I'm busy that night, I want to go to the ballgame or go on a date or whatever it is. Great question, man. And the answer is yes. And that's actually the best part about our industry. You know, people always ask, Mark, is there really business for everybody, right? There's that, I always get that question. And because of your question, Scott, the answer is yes. See, if you say, I'm not going to do a signing tonight, by default, they need to locate the next signing agent who would be available to ask.

So not everyone's always going to be available for that signing appointment. Does that make sense? So maybe you're not even at a ballgame. Maybe you're at another appointment. or maybe your appointment starts in an hour and the signing service or the escrow officer or the mortgage officer is like, hey, Scott can do a five. You're like, hey, man, I'm already headed my way to a 530. I can't do it. So because it's almost like an on-call business, if that makes sense. So the reason that truly is kind of business for everybody is for the sheer fact that you may not be available. And if you're not available next, you know what I mean? Yep.

So how much notice are you typically given that there's a job? coming up. You could be as short as 30 minutes as long as two days because once again, it's on the borrower schedule. So a loan officer will call escrow and be like, hey, my borrower is available tomorrow at 3 p.m. You need to get a notary out there at 3. Or it could be like, oh, my, okay, my borrower just called me up 25 minutes ago, told me they're getting, they get lunch at 1230 and they have child's play at night. So they only can sign at 1230 to 1.30 after office. So you need to get a notary. Like, that's literally how it goes down. And so that could be a scenario or it could be the scenario of like my borrow words available in two days. So it's either or, you know,

it could be like now, now, or it could be like we have a couple days. So it varies. Are there any special skills you need for this? The biggest requirement and the only problem is having your notary commission. So at the base of it, you know, you've got to get your notary. If you're one of the, in one of the 25 percent of states, and there's 13 states that require a course and a test. So if you're in those states, you've got to be able to pass your notary commission, my point, right? So that's the skill set. Number two, the only other skill set really I tell people the biggest skill set you need is the ability to pay attention to detail. The reason assigning agent gets paid as well as we do is because it is such an integral part

of the loan process. One missed signature can hold up a funding. I mean, you know that. You know you buy and sell real estate. So if a notary like forgets a signature on the mortgage or deed, like funding stops. So if the biggest skill set you need is just your ability to pay attention to detail. And then outside of that, I guess another big thing that you need, I don't know if it's a skill set is transportation. Because you're the biggest, you need. Because remember, once again, we work around the borrower's schedule. You know, so if borrower's like, look, I'm available at my office, like you've got to be able to drive there. So getting a commission is a skill set, being a pay attention to details a skill set. And then obviously,

transportation is another requirement that I would say one would need to have. How about like a super duper printer? Oh, great question, man. Yeah, no, seriously. Yeah, no, great question. Yes, you need a printer, a dual trade printer that prints legal and letter. Now, if you work directly with escrow title companies, you can pick up the docs from their location already pre-printed. If you work for signing services, like I mentioned earlier, where they find notaries via location, you have to get those docs emailed and printed. So yes, you need a dual tray laser printer.

Here's a little nugget of some people trying to figure out how to do this on cells, which I totally recommend. You can't be inkjet. So an inkjet printer is actually illegal for our business because ink jet, here's a little bit of printer knowledge. Inkjet printers, the ink stays on top of the paper, where a laser jet, it goes into the paper if that makes sense. So it does need to be a laser jet printer recommended to get a dual tray

because you need to print legal and letter size paper. How much is a good one cost if you're going to be doing this couple times a week? Yeah, so there's actually one that I recommend. It's a brother to all of my students. It's about $250. And their cartridges come, the first cartridge comes to that. I'll top of my head it prints about 8,000 pages. And then you can get like the Cadillac of printers, you know,

that go up to like a thousand box and you can get that cost down to like three cents a sheet. But yeah, I usually recommend starting with a mid-tier and a brother, HP, anyone in that ballpark is a pretty good one to recommend. Gotcha. So you have a very minimal cost here really to get started and then a cost per page that comes. So your costs associated with these signings is a couple miles driving and then some paper and ain't. I couldn't have said it better myself.

That's literally it. And then gas getting to and from the employment as well. But yeah, it would be cost to print. It would be transportation gas. costs and there's a few other ancillary items you would need, which is something called Errors and Emissions Insurance, which is only a couple hundred bucks a year. It's like $20 a month. When you get your notary commission, you need to file a bond. But yeah, man, like I said, it's the best kept secret in real estate because the minimal salt up costs is insane. It's

basically a notary commission, some insurance, which is a ton of money and a printer, and you're off to the races. It's just the skill set of knowing where a borrowing is a signed date or initial is the skill set, either someone can learn on their own or they can go through a course. It's one of the other. So it sounds like the startup costs, unless you go with the $1,000 Cadillac printer, you can get started all in for, what, $500 a thousand? Absolutely. 100% you can. You're making that back in like four or five jobs. Yeah. I mean, and we're independent contractors. We're many business owners. So that's all tax deductions, right? So yes, it just gets better and better and better. So you're 100% right. You know,

what I will kind of touch on, you know, so everyone gets a really good picture of a signing agent is your fees vary from 75 up to 200. So why they vary is a signing service. So the way the signing service stays in business, right there for profit, obviously. If they're the ones farming the business from the escrow company, they take a little bit of the signing fee. So depending what signing service you work for, if the signing fee is $150 that escrow is paying the signing service, the signing service will pay you the notary, $100, and they'll keep $50. Sometimes you'll find signing companies will take $75 and pay you $75. And then if you learn to bypass the signing service, you can keep the whole $150.

So I say a range so people understand realistically, because there's different avenues of getting business. And I want to understand that, you know, it could be as low. And this is a podcast, no consumer air quotes. I say as low as $75 because I would still argue $75 for an hour appointment is pretty amazing. But yes, it could be $75 if you work through a signing service or you can keep the whole fee $150 to $200 depending what the title company's paying.

Well, I don't make $75 an hour right now, so that's not bad. The best kind of secret in the real estate industry I keep telling everybody. Okay, so how long does it take? I'm going to get my signing license, my signing agent certificate. What is that? So once again, the notary commission. comes from your state. So that usually takes, depending on if you're in a state that requires a course, if you're on the 75% of states that don't, that can be like two weeks from the

application into when you get it, right? Okay. So once that gets done, because that comes from the state itself, then it's just the learning curve of learning where a borrower needs a signed date or initial. You know, full disclosure, you can learn that on your own. Like, you don't need a course or mentor. You can go get your parents' loan documents or your friends loan documents from their purchase or refinance. Study those, learn where they need a date, sign initial, and that's the skill set. So, you know, there is a learning curve of making sure you understand where the borrower needs the date, sign initial each paperwork, because as you know, Mindy, who's owned many homes, you know, the loan documents are anywhere between 100, 150 pages. One missed initial could throw

the deal, and if you mess up a deal, obviously you're not going to get a callback for business again. So it's pretty important that you learn this skill set of where they need to sign, where they need to date, where they need to initial, what forms I need to fill out. You know, there's insurance forms and et cetera that they need to fill out. And your job as assigning agents to make sure all those are done at the closing in order for the escrow entitled to fund the loan on time. So everybody's happy in the transaction. So that learning curve differs for everybody, I guess, is the point I'm trying to make. You know, I have some students who can learn that in a day. It takes some students two weeks or 30 days. It all just kind of depends, you know, what your

learning curve is. And that's, everybody's different on that. standpoint. When it comes to, you know, let's say I'm making $50,000 a year at my full-time job, right? And I'm excited about this. I'm like, okay, I can drop $1,000 into this and pay off a lot of debt and make a lot of extra side money. How many nights in a given week, you know, let's say I'm in Denver, like a top 30 city in the country, right? Population. How many nights per week and then how many appointments per weekend day could I kind of max out at? Yeah, I mean, honestly, you're full disclosure here. Obviously, obviously, it's like any business. If you're a good real estate agent, it's all about the leads coming in, right?

So once you learn how to get the leads, which is as important as doing the closing itself, right? These signing services are best way of free lead gen just because you live by the location. But the point I'm trying to make is, you know, it's all about lead generation. So if you're asking me how many signings you can do, actually is based upon how many hours you can fit in the day. Literally. I mean, at the peak of my business, I've been doing this for 16 years. So I was around during the boom, which was crazy. I was literally doing two signings of the same time running back from office to office because there wasn't enough notaries because there were so many appointments going in. So I can literally do 10 to 15 a day. I mean, in the evenings, it's usually

you can do a 5 o'clock appointment, a 7 o'clock appointment, and a 9 o'clock appointment because then anything after 9 gets a little awkward. Like, can I cut your house at 11 p.m.? So usually in the evenings you can do a 5, 7, and 9 if you're a good signing agent. And then during the days you can do as as many as you can, you know, schedule out for yourself. But I think the bigger point that I want to make, Scott, to your question is, like, this isn't some weird little scam niche no one's ever heard of. Every mortgage in Denver needs a signing agent. Like, that's not an exaggeration. So you can be as busy as the market is in Denver. Does that make sense? And I would guess, and I don't know this, but I would guess in Denver in a major metropolitan area, there has to be

thousands of refinances and mortgages or purchases closing every single day. I mean, hundreds at the minimum, right? On the greater Denver area. I mean, so you could, there's so much opportunity for signing agents because we just ride the tail of the mortgage officer and the real estate agent. And in a major market like yours, man, there's notaries doing amazing. In fact, some of my best students are in Denver doing $8, $10,000 a month in sending agent income because you guys are specifically one of the best markets. So, but yeah, man, I mean, you, we, we, are in conjunction with the market. Rates are down, which the Fed just announced, they don't plan on raising rates for the rest of the year. I read an article on Mortgage Daily

today that rates are going to drop again. So I'm expecting another ref boom like a lot of LOs are. And so signing agents are needed on every single one of those transactions. I mean, I get so excited talking about this because like this opportunity is under everybody's nose. Every real estate agent I talked to is like, man, I didn't realize the notary is making $200 for an hour. I'm like, yeah, it's on every closing. disclosure, a line item, notary fee. You know what I mean? When I talked to Mindy, she was like, I never thought about it. And I said, yeah, it's like, it's awesome. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending,

savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you

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19 and over. Physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nugget Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Yeah, so who does this not work for? Because this sounds like I get really excited about things super easy. And this sounds amazing.

I know where you're supposed to sign. You sign. Basically, there's a line you have to put something on it. your signature. A little short one is an initial, you know, one with slashes as a date. Who would be bad at this job? Who doesn't this work for? Who's not an ideal candidate for this position? I mean, like I said in the beginning, I mean, honestly, the biggest job description is being paying attention to detail. I mean, some people just aren't attention, detailed people. It's not a race. You know, some nototers try to think it's a race to get in out or, you know, they're just don't super

pay attention to detail. They're not scanning the page. So honestly, you know, my biggest thing to anyone is, like you just got to make sure you have the skill set of paying attention to detail. And that sounds like easy until you have 150 pages and you missed one initial on page 79. And the loan doesn't close on time. So that is probably the most important thing that I'd get across to anybody who is listening. This sounds interesting is you got to pay attention to detail. On a macro answer, every state has a background check. And so you have to pass your state's background check to become a notary. And, you know, every state has their different requirements. So I don't want to make a blanket statement for all 51, and I say 51, because District of Columbia has their own notary commission.

So every 51 notary has their own background checks requiring different things. But what I can say blatantly is you can't have a felony on your background to get approved. So you obviously have felony, you shouldn't probably apply. Now after 10 years, some states allow it to expunge after 10 years. Once again, I don't want to get that in detail, but the blanket is same as felonies. But the biggest point is, like, you're signing a financial contract on the behalf of a lender. And so you just got to make sure, like, you know, there can be a sneaky little initial in the middle of the note that they want you to show that recognizes that's an adjustable rate mortgage. And if you've missed that little initial in the middle page of the note, the loan doesn't fund, then, you know, you probably won't get business again. So paying attention to details, honestly, the most important skill set to have. But the cool thing, it's like riding a bike, right? Like, once you start getting the flow of it, you're going to be good. But in the beginning, it's going to be a little nerve-wracking of like, okay, did I miss an initial? Did I miss a signature? But, no, after five or ten signings, it's like, okay, I'm off to the rates.

I'm good to go. But in the beginning, you know, a lot of my feedback is like, man, Mark is so nervous. I missed an initial one. And that's just kind of because, you know, a lot's writing on it. Is there a minimum age? Do you have to be, like, 18 or 21 or 25? I'm assuming, and now I'm not even sure. I'm assuming you have to be 18, but.

Yeah, only requirement is getting you noted commission. So each state is different. So each, I believe, once again, I'm on my feet held to the fire. So it was like, District of Columbia, to 19. I believe every state's 18 is the minimum to get the commission. So once you have your commission. Because once again, a signing agent is nothing more than a notary public who knows loan documents. The state doesn't teach the loan document training. They teach the notary training. So only requirements getting that notary commission. And then like I've been saying,

you can learn the loan document training on your own or you can work with someone to teach you the loan document training. So the only real requirement I'll keep going. back to, which is the truth, and that is having a notary commission. Okay, so I am in high school. I don't know what I want to do when I grow up. I hit 18. I can go out and get my notary commission, which is, let's say, two weeks. How long is the course?

You said California is the most strict. What is that, like a one week course, a month course, a year course? Like, I'm clearly not a not. Yeah, it's six hours. Six hours? Yeah, literally. It's a six hour. course, and it's a 30-question test after and which you can miss nine questions of that test.

Oh, my God. And California is the hardest, by the way. It's like the hardest. I'm sure. The hardest. Even though this is a podcast. So it's really super simple. And literally six hours is the longest. And California is one of the few that require an in-person course.

But a lot of the other states are all online. Like here's a notary handbook, read the notary handbook, take the quiz. Right? So that's the easy part. So I am of whatever minimum age, let's say 18. If it's 19, let's say that. I am of whatever minimum age, I go and I get my notary. Then I am allowed to be a signing agent. I can just make sure people sign. And I brought you on because you have a course that teaches people how to be a signing agent. And you've said that you don't have to take the course. You can go and figure it out yourself. How long is your course? My course is six hours. So with my course, you know, you get a set of loan documents. I give you and then I walk you through each of those set of loan documents. Once again, full disclosure, I try to help as many people as I can. You can get like your family, your parents loan docs if you're 18, you know, but even if you're, you know, a 30 year old gentleman or lady and you want to get your, you don't own a home, you can get your friends loan docs. Study those. So, you know, obviously you got to know where people need a sign date and initial. And if there is a hard part about this, Mindy and Scott, I always tell people speaking mortgage,

is like speaking Spanish, you've got to learn a new language, right? So some people know what an arm is or a heloac or adjustable rate mortgage or PITI. So just learning some of the knowledge is the learning curve I spoke about earlier. You know, I mean, the reason we get paid as well as we do is because a lot rides on and perfectly executed signing. And part of that signing entails knowing what definitions are, knowing what you're looking at, you know, being able to guide a bar with your document. and that only comes if you take the time to understand and learn.

I mean, being a signing agent is like any skill. You can learn it if you want to learn it. You know, it's like mortgage officer. You can become a mortgage officer with zero background in mortgage. And then someone's going to teach you and take you through it, right? And then there's entry level real estate agent positions. You know, so being a signing agent is just as easy as, okay, can you help me guide me through this learning curve? But like I said, full disclosure, I want to come on and let everybody know you don't need a course to do this.

you know, you can tackle this learning curve on your own. You know, I always tell people you can learn to play basketball on your own. It just make, your learning curve will be shortened and your goals of success will be great and if you actually work with the coach. So, but yeah, you can totally just grab us at a loan docs, get your notary commission, go out and kind of figure this out on your own. Okay. Are signing agents necessary for other loans or is it just for mortgages?

I mean, I stay in my lane. So, you know, there's something called general notary work, GNW is in with the say in the industry. So there's other ways to make money with your notary commission. I don't teach that because I'm not expert in it, but there's a ton of ways to make money with your notary commission outside of loan signings. But the loan signing is the most lucrative way to make money with that commission. Okay. So what kind of salary are you seeing here? Yeah, you know, I don't like the word salary money because this is a real business. Just like if you're a real estate agent, you have to learn how to go out and get the home buyers or home sellers to represent. Being a signing agent's not any different.

you have to learn how to go out and get the signing appointment. So I know notary signing agents who do this full time who are making $17,000, $15,000 a month. I know signing agents who do it $1,000 a month because they only want $1,000 a month because they're part-time signing agents. They have great full-time jobs. So I just don't like to work salary. And I want to make sure everyone who's listening in this podcast knows that this is a business. And you know, you need to go out and learn the different avenues of getting business. But at the end of the day, a signing appointment, you get paid anywhere from $75 to $200 depending where you farm it. If you use a middleman or a signing service, they will pay you $125 to $75 for that appointment.

If you go out and get the business yourself directly through a mortgage professional like a family real estate agent friend, you keep the full 200. So, you know, the amount of money one can make, I really tell my students, like any business is all about the effort you put into it. You know, this isn't some weird money falls out of the sky. and I try to be fully transparent with all my students. But the coolest part is so many people, and I apologize, I keep saying this, but it really is true, it's the best kept secret in real estate is so many people always focus on being a real estate agent and not even realize every real estate agent needs a notary. Everyone focused on being a mortgage officer instead of being the notary for the mortgage

officer, right? So many people focus on being an escrow officer instead of focusing on being the notary for the escrow officer. And because everyone's focused on different parts, the signing agent field is wide open. for anybody. It just seems like an incredible side hustle to go after and then with opportunity to scale into full-time work obviously. Compared with, as you just mentioned, an agent, right? Because if I'm going to be an agent, that's a big, there's a lot of hours, at least in Colorado, to get your license. And then getting someone to actually walk them through buying a property

is not as like easy as, well, some people make it out to be. Most agents don't make very much money. But this, you know, there's no curve. You just kind of get in, you get that first job, right? Even through one of these services for $75, make your contact, a couple of contacts. And then it sounds like you could just set these appointments. You don't have to go through the process of curating business for an agent over the course of a month to close a property

or months or years or whatever. You just grab a couple. Man, I could have said it any better. Get a couple going and then you can scale up. Exactly right. And like most, like I said the beginning of the show, you know, most signing agents are part-time, and the ones who really get it and it clicks, scale the full-time. So you're exactly right. You know, some people doesn't really click,

you know, but Selma clicks and like, sky's the limit. I'm out. I'm going to build this to $10,000 a month. I can encourage everyone out there, get a noted commission, learn how use the signing services. We all have a friend who's in real estate. Is that a safe assumption to make? Yeah. Yeah, I would say that I've got more than. Yeah. And so each of those real estate agents can be like, Mindy is my note. on this file. Like, so that's literally the power. The real estate agent is the top of the food chain, right? Just like they can pick their escrow company, like they can pick their TC, like they can pick their title company, like they can pick their handyman. A real estate agent can be like,

my friend Mindy, my friend Scott is going to be the signing agent on this who makes $150, $200, whatever the signing fee is. You know, a lot of real estate agents don't even know the power that they have. And sometimes I tell newer signing agents, just let your friend know that they can use you as a signing agent, it's literally that easy. So yes, I mean, getting business, honestly, is sometimes as easy as, hey, my high school friend of 20 years, who's also real estate agent, I got my notary commission, I won't be your signing agent on your next closing. And like Scott said, you make a contact through that, you know, and that real estate agent knows an escrow title officer that deal is going through. And then you make a bridge to the title officer or

escrow officer. And now you have a tunnel of business just flowing right in. So Scott, you nailed it, man, it's all about just getting those contacts and then just kind of riding the wave of I'm good at what I do. Yeah, I mean, it just seems like you do five appointments a week. You make between $500 and $1,000. And that's a really good living right there. On top of everything else, you know, on top of everything else, you know, that's how you knock out that extra bit of debt and get back to zero or save up enough of that first rental property. And the crazy part, Scott, is a notary is being hired on every single signing, I mean, closing transaction in Denver.

Like, this isn't some weird it kind of work sometimes or not. Like, every morning there's transaction in Denver, there's a notary who don't even know exists, is crushing it. And it's not because this niche is weird, it's just because you don't know about it, right? Or you haven't focused the time to understand it.

And that's all I'm trying to do. And I think what you guys are doing with this podcast today is like, you know, if you're in California, you're in Oregon, like this exists, you know? But yeah, like you said, man, I think the wheels are turning for you. and it's something that you don't need to quit your full-time job to do. I mean, even if you did two a month, I stole your car payment.

Yeah. Okay, so this exists in all 50 states plus D.C. So 51 different places, you can do this. What I love most about this is not like- Well, let me stop you right there because I think that you made a very important distinction. Ooh, okay. Very good, very good. So in our country, we have attorney states and escrow states.

You're probably aware. Okay. Okay, right? Yes. Mainly on the East Coast is a lot of your attorney states. West Coast and anything west of the Mississippi is basically all escrow states and everything east of the Mississippi, it's like 50-50 escrow and attorney states. So in attorney states, attorneys handle the majority of the transit.

They are also the notary. Okay. But most of the majority of the transactions. So the business is there in every state. It is way easier. There's more plentiful, is a better word, in escrow states than they are attorney states. And I can give real list of that in the show notes if you'd like a link to that. Oh, that'd be great. Yeah. And I just rattle off a couple of the high population states that maybe

it's a little less like, hey, this might be a little more challenging for you if you're in New York. I don't know. Great question. So here is, I'll give you a more macro answer because I get this all time. The best three states are the most popular states in the country, which is Florida, Texas, and California. Those are three escrow states. So if you're in escrow, if you live in Florida, Texas, California, which is a good chance because it's like 40% of the country. The most populated attorney state is actually New York. But a lot of your smaller states for attorney states like New Hampshire, Connecticut, Boston, or Massachusetts.

So a lot of those are attorney states. Now, those attorneys handle it during the day, but they still need signing agents to do it in the evenings or you can handle out-of-state returns, out-of-state signing. But I'm glad you brought that up, Mindy. So escrow states is the majority of states in this country. and it's like if they fall off, every mortgage needs one. And an attorney state, it basically happens after hours versus in hours. Okay, that's fair.

I like that almost anybody can do this. But what I really like about this idea is that you're not sinking $10,000 into this to discover that you hate it. That's right. You're sinking a few hundred, maybe a thousand if you get like the super printer, which you don't even recommend. I wouldn't recommend either to get some big super printer to discover that you hate it. So get this brother printer that laser only.

Yes. But you're sinking this money in. You can make all your money back in just a few signings and then discover, you know what, it's not for me. So you're not like upside down on this side hustle in a way to, you know, now I've got to do this for a month to get my stuff back or get my money back. Or now I've got to do it for a year. I'm stuck with this. It just like you said, it's the best kept secret.

It just seems like a no brainer to try it out. If you've got debt, if you want to accelerate your financial independence journey, if you want, I mean, if you can read and have a car and a laser printer and a notary commission and some pens and paper. And you know, you're kind of echoing, I'm sorry, Scott. No, no, go ahead. I just kind of echo Mindy's statement. And, you know, I even tell some people that, you know, friends or family or whatnot that

it's just a good skill set to have. So let's say you sink in $500 into it. and you do five closings a year. Once you learn the skill set, you're good, right? I mean, the notary commission in most states last four years. That's almost a standard term.

They're never 12 months. They're usually two years to four years, and four years is almost the norm. So once you have your notary commission, it's good for four years, then you have the skillset that takes you, let's say it takes you a couple weeks to get through your learning curve.

And then, you know, you got a best friend who does a real estate agent and they do four deals a year, let's just say. And you do those four deals a year for the next four years. It's just something that I think almost everybody should have in their back pocket. It's like, dude, I'm a notary. I know how to do mortgage closings and maybe I get a phone call once a month. It's like to me it's like it's even more macro than just trying to make extra income now. It's just something you can have in your back pocket as an income generating tool. And you can almost just do the learning curve and be like

eight months from out. Oh, you know what? I'm a notary. I can. with signing a, I can do your signing if you meet a mortgage office at a bar. You know what I mean? So it's almost even more awesome than just, it's just something else that you have in your financial tool kit to create income for yourself on something that has to happen on every single mortgage. What a good alternative to driving for Uber or dog walking or hand-demean work or whatever it is that you're thinking about doing as a moonlighting activity after hours, right, if you're working a job or starting up, you know, just going out of your own and figuring something out. What a good alternative to those other things. I mean, it's just great. Yeah, no,

a lot of our students are Uber drivers, by the way. They find out from like, oh, gosh, well, I can do this also. I'm already driving. You know what I mean? So, I mean, there's some signing agents who actually have portable printers, believe it or not. So they have portable printers in their car. They get a, they get a text for an assignment from one of these signing service we speak of. They print them in the backseat of the car and they're off to the appointment. The title company gives you a FedEx slip to FedEx those docs back. That's not coming out in the signing agent's pocket. So they do the signing, they print them in the car, and they go to FedEx and potta Bing. They make 75 to 100 bucks for that deal and they move on.

This happens every single day, thousands of times a day in our country. And people are just like, whoa. I need to go get my notary license. I'm pretty sure you may know, realize an agent or two or a hundred. I'm pretty sure I do. Scott, you're going to go get your notary commission? Yep, probably right in tomorrow. I know a guy if you need any help with that learning case.

Nice. Okay. Is there anything else that we should know about this thing that hasn't been already covered about becoming a signing agent and going down this path? Yeah. So the biggest thing I want is hammer home to everybody is that you can literally do this on your own. You know, you could pick up set of loan documents, get your notary commission, pick up and set loan documents, figure out where a barney is assigned date and initial.

In fact, I have a fairly large YouTube channel that gives a bunch of free videos on how you could do this on your own after you go to my YouTube channel, which is loan signing system. You can literally be a signing agent with information you get there. I have hundreds of videos. So this is something you can do on your own. You don't need a course. I do have a course, Scott, you know, so I just tell my students like if you need that extra handling, if you need someone to really shorten that learning curve, I would love to be a help to you. But I don't want anybody listening to this podcast thinking like you have to take a course. The only thing you have to do is get your notary commission. Everything else, you can kind of learn on the fly.

You know, I will say that, you know, your learning curve will be short. And if you follow someone who's doing what you want to, what you've done, what's this saying? The best way to get successful is copy someone who is successful. So I have a course on, you know, how to get the business, how to do the signing. But those are all things, like I said, full transparency, Scott. Mindy, you can learn on your own. I mean, from this podcast, you can figure out that to get you Notary Commission, sign it for signing services, just Google signing services. You'll get a list of of them. There's literally hundreds. You're going to Google it and be like, oh my gosh, there are these money companies making money in this net? You're like, yes or not. So, yeah.

Well, where can't folks find this stuff? What is your YouTube channel? And what is your website? Yeah, so Loansigning System on YouTube, search that. That's the channel. My course is LoansanningSystem.com. Once again, I have countless blogs on it. So if you want to do more research, I'll give you guys a link to maybe a bigger podcast link, special link to where people can get, if they're interested, they can get more information specifically on, you know, kind of the steps to become a signing agent. I have a checklist of what it takes to be a successful signing agent. I give way for free being a signing agent. I'm just doing my best of life. Many people know that this is the best kept secret in real estate industry. And whether you take my course or not, I'm rooting for you. I want you to go out, you know,

if you get a signing in Denver, it doesn't hurt me in San Diego. Like, this is one of the amazing things where I'm just trying to speak from pedal stone because no one else has. as far as this idea that people just haven't heard of it. So LoansettingSystem.com is my training course. Loanetting system is my YouTube channel. I'm on all the social media channels, as you can imagine, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. I try to give away as much free information as I possibly can to help you on your journey. And then if you decide that you want your help from an expert, I would love to help. But if not, I mean, I'm rooting for you and you need nothing but a notary commission. This has been fantastic. I've been in real estate since.

almost before Scott was born. And I have never, I mean, I've heard, I've used these people, but I don't, like, I don't really pay attention. I'm just signing, you know, like a thousand times over and over, initial here and sign there and whatever. And I didn't really realize that they made $200 a pop. I am not making $200 a pop now. So this just seems like a no-brainer. I mean, what's the downside? It costs you $500. You invest $500 in this, but then you you go do two or four or six signings and then you've got that all back. And you have a skill set for the next four years until your commission expires. And you have a skill set for the next four years. Should you fall on hard times?

Should something happen? Should you find some debt that you need to pay off? Should, you know, whatever. Life doesn't always follow the path that you set out for it. And having a backup plan is just never a bad idea. I love it. Mark, thank you so much for your time today. This was super awesome. I'm super pumped. I am like honored and stoked to be here. So honestly, thank you. If you can't tell, I can talk about this all day. So I appreciate you both, Scott, and Mindy.

And honestly, you need anything, any help? I'm a call away. Awesome. Okay. We will include all of these links in the show notes for this show. Mark from LoansigningSystem.com. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Awesome. Thank you. Okay, Scott. That was fantastic. What did you think? I thought it was great. that, you know, there's a lot of different ways to go about this, right? And this is not, this is not to detract from the importance of saving money, working at your career, building an

investment philosophy that is capable of sustaining financial independence. But this is a great, it seems like side hustle. Man, I wish that, you know, like when I started out, I was working a full-time job at Dish Network, right? And after hours, I would try things like tutoring or driving for Uber or start a t-shirt company, all these things that were like very close to minimum wage or not scale up, like this obviously bad ideas that wouldn't work. Maybe maybe your t-shirt company will work if you're listening. I think about a t-shirt company. Mine didn't. But like this would have been a pretty good alternative. Man, I could have made a couple of extra thousand bucks without too much work or, you know, at a reasonable hourly rate if I was thinking about saving up a little bit

extra money and maybe accelerating that first home purchase. So I think it's got a great application across a lot of areas for people. Reasonable hourly rate? I don't know what you're making, Scott, but I'm not making $200 an hour over here. I think it's more than a reasonable hourly rate. And I think that we didn't ask this question during the episode, but I would imagine that as you become more well known to the people that you're signing for, the mortgage companies, the signing services, as you become.

reliable. They'll call you first. I can just imagine your stock going up with this company every single time you do a loan closing. You do it right. And you do it on time. Hey, can you be here at two? Sure can. You get there at 155 instead of 215. You're all ready to go. You rock it out. I'm sure they have some sort of like, hey, borrower, how did you like their service? Hey, they were great or oh, they were awful. You know, I just think that this is super, super, super, easy and super easy to get started. I mean, the whole low cost of entry blows my mind. Yeah. It's certainly not the path to millions, but it is definitely, what a great way to side hustle. And what a good backup plan? If you are thinking about maybe kind of starting a business or doing

something else, you know, what a great source of income while you kind of make that transition. It's not like you're going to like be driving for, again, driving for Uber, which is fine. It's just effectively minimum wage, you know, after expenses there. And it seems like it's got a much, much greater potential. It really does. Okay, should we get out of here, Scott? Let's do it. From episode 74 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, this is Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench,

and we are signing off. Get it? Get it? Come on. You should love it. Signing off. It's a show about signing. Oh, my gosh, yes.

You're so quick with them. But you don't get them when I say it. That one, yeah. Oh, that was great. I know. I'm very clever. Yay, I win. Okay, bye.