BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 82: Early Money Lessons Create Healthy Money Experiences with Aditi Shekar

Episode Date: July 22, 2019

Aditi Shekar learned entrepreneurship at a very early age - when she asked her father for a toy and he said no, make your own money. She’s been creating businesses ever since. Her father’s advice wasn’t the only great money management tips she received early on. In college, a finance professor did two entire classes on personal finance, sharing the benefits of starting early to save for retirement.  Her financial independence journey was kickstarted when her apartment burned down - and she had no renters insurance. “I don’t want more stuff. I just want to figure out the life I want to lead.”  Aditi and her husband took a roadtrip to discover where they wanted to live, and ended up in two separate cities, visiting on the weekends. Time apart made them realize they wanted to be together, so she moved to him, and started the life she truly wanted. In This Episode We Cover: Aditi's journey with money On learning about entrepreneurship and business ethics at age 5 Her philosophy on spending money How she developed discipline when she got her first job Saving early for retirement Big question to ask yourself when you're opening a retirement account How she started investing The importance of creating a rule of thumb Started teaching a class on personal finance The realisation she had after their apartment burned down The importance of emergency funds How her outlook changed in terms of life and finances after the fire incident happened Her goal in her financial journey And SO much more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcasts show number 82 with Oddity Shaker. I don't want to spend my money on nice things. I want to spend my money on making more money. And so that was a moment of shifting my thinking of not really necessarily trying to go buy stuff, but rather giving myself an opportunity to use any money that I ever earned or saved or invested to actually help me grow my life. It's time for a new American dream, one that does. doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation, you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more.

This is the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. Before we jump into the show, I wanted to share a quick announcement. For the first time in seven years, Bigger Pockets is hosting a conference. We're the source of information for real estate investing online, and this conference is going to be the event of the year. We're holding it in Nashville, Tennessee from October 6th through 8th at the Gaylord Opera Land Resort and Convention Center. We're going to have a ton of fun after the daily sessions and info sessions and speakers and all of those types of things. Mindy and I will be there, plus Brandon Turner and David Green from the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Investing podcast and Jay and Carol Scott from the Bigger Pockets Business podcast. We'll be joined by a host of other

successful real estate investors who are deep in the trenches. See what I did there of real estate investing. I want to show you how you can be successful too. People like Chad Carson, Tarle Yarber, Liz Faircloth, Anson Young, and so many more of our authors and prominent folks on Bigger Pockets will be there. The conference will sell out. So go to BiggerPocketsconference.com for all the details. As a good of everybody, I'm Scott Trench and I'm here with my co-host, Ms. Mindy Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I am doing excellent. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Audity is just full of energy, full of great information, great story. We actually decided as a result of the quality of today's show that we're actually going to

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How's it going today? It's going amazing. We have beautiful weather in San Francisco this morning. Oh, well, nice. It's not cold. It's not cold. It's sunny. It's bright. It's lovely. It's a rarity. Sometimes it's San Francisco. Yeah, so I used to live near San Francisco and we would go to San Francisco. And you know that I'm sure you know the saying, the coldest winter I ever spent was the summer in Texas. It's such a stupid thing. If you're in San Francisco, you're like, I'm so sick of hearing that. But it's so true. Like you get as soon as you go over the bridge, you're like, why is it 45 degrees here? So I'm very

pleased that you have delightful weather today. We do. And if you take a day trip out of San Francisco, you better plan accordingly because it slaps you in the face. Yeah, it's like a thousand degrees just over the border. Okay, so weather aside, we want to know about your money journey. Where does your story with money begin? Yeah, so I actually grew up all over the world. My mom worked for the UN. So when I was very young, I was living in a small neighborhood in New Delhi, India. And my story actually begins when I was about five years old, and I really wanted to buy a toy. And my parents said, no way, you can't have this thing because you've bought enough this month. So if you want it, you need to go figure out how to earn money, which was like such an interesting thing to hear from your parents at age five.

So I had my best friend who was conveniently named Abitia, which is the male version of my name, and him and I started a paper plane flying contest where we went and sold tickets to all of our neighbors and our friends to come fly their paper planes at our contest, and we learned about entrepreneurship and how to start a business at that age. And it was such an interesting moment for me personally because there were three things we did. The first was we tried to rig the paper plane flying contest to win and learned very about business ethics

in the very early days of our entrepreneurial journey. The second thing was we actually learned about like how do you create tickets and make sure that no one can copy your tickets and bring them to the paper plane flying contest. So my dad taught us about why don't you use a gold marker to hand sign each ticket so it's very unique and interesting. And the third thing we did was we actually took everything we owned that we didn't want anymore, all of the toys, and made them the prizes for the paper play of fun contest. And we made a ton of money as a bunch of little kids and ended up going and buying all these

new toys with that money. That's awesome. That's fantastic that you have the insight at age five, or not insight, the experience. The get up and go. What is the word I'm looking for? The hustle at age five. Most five-year-olds, they told no, they're like, okay, fine, and they go do something else.

But it was because my parents said, no, but if you want it, you got to go earn it. And that was incredibly empowering because to a little kid to hear that, I'm like, oh, I can go do this. Oh, okay, you're going to help me do it. And my parents actually sat me down and walked me through. My mom was like, okay, where are you going to put the money? Let's get you a box to put it in. My dad was like, how do we set these tickets up? a way that people can't replicate it. So they made me think about all of these dynamics.

So when I launched my first business, it was profitable and it was incredibly empowering because, you know, I'd learned how to do it in a matter of weeks. Did you win the contest? Did you rig it successfully? It wasn't even close. That's how bad it was. And the reason we picked a paper playing flying contest is we've just gotten back in the U.S., actually a trip to California, and we were like, oh, we have this fancy paper plane, this tool that we had built. And we were like, oh, let's use this fancy paper plane as in our contest. It didn't even come close. There was another kid in our neighborhood. We took all of our toys. That's awesome. How did that, how did this translate into kind of middle, high school, and beyond? Yeah. So I think because I did that so early on in my journey,

as the years went on, and every time I hit a roadblock where I wanted money and I couldn't get it, I would just go start a business. So in high school again, I had watched all these American movies. I was living in Tanzania at the time, which is, you know, in the middle of nowhere in East Africa, and I really wanted to go to prom. I was like, mom, all these movies have these like awesome proms that people go to, but we don't have a thing like that. My mom was like, well, what's stopping you? And so we built our first prom, and we earned $3,000, my best friend and I, which felt like a lot of money. have in high school. And so we definitely blew that money. We'll talk more about that later, but it just kept coming up over and over again in my life. And so I think over the span of my

sort of career as I moved into college and beyond, I really thought like, wow, I've been doing this since I was a kid. What if I were to do this professionally? What would that look like? And here we are. I've built data and it's a total repeat of that experience. What was kind of your discipline around spending the money that you, that you were? What was your philosophy or learnings from that around that? Yeah, phenomenal amount of discipline, which was I had none. I would earn the money and then I would immediately go blow the money on the toy I wanted to buy or the thing I wanted to go to. And I think that discipline really came more with age, quite honestly. It was when I had graduated college and was working and realizing how much effort it took to earn that

money and actually paying for your own expenses. It's like a real epiphany moment. In the past, every time I earned money through these businesses, most of my expenses were covered. So it was always a slush fund. It was always something I could go blow. Whereas when I started earning a salary was what I realized, wait a second. Maybe you can't blow all of the money and you need to be a lot more thoughtful about it. So what did that look like when you started earn your first salary?

Like what shifted? Why did you decide to go earn a salary rather than just start businesses? It's a great question. I think I thought it was the right thing to do was to go get a job. Like it was sort of my parents had definitely. encouraged us to go be entrepreneurs, but they were also, they're very Indian, you know, and they were like, oh yeah, of course you're going to go get a job. And so that felt like the right path forward. And when I remember the first job out of college was actually in San Francisco at a nonprofit called

Donors Shoes. And I earned $30,000. So it was not a lot of money to be earning in San Francisco even back then. And I started looking for an apartment to live in. And I couldn't afford a single apartment on my salary. I looked all over the city. And, and everything, everything I looked at, I was like, this is really miserable. I don't want to live like this. And I was lucky enough that we had family living in San Francisco and I said, hey, guys, can I live with you and try to save money on rents? And the second that that happened, that they were okay with me doing that, I ended up realizing that I had this money coming in every month. I didn't have the big rent expense, but I had all these other expenses, commute,

carking, dealing with food costs and travel because my significant other was not living with me in Cepin Francisco at the time. So it forced me into a state where I had to really think very intentionally about the little salary I was earning and how I was actually spending that money. And that immediately, and I had a lot of things that I wanted to do still, right? Like I wanted to go see my boyfriend. I wanted to go have great experiences now that I was earning this salary. And I needed to make sure that it was very affordable for me the whole time. And stepping back from all this, I will say, I joke that I'm good at money because I'm Indian. It's like culturally, it's like ingrained in you from a young age where your parents are just like, hey, you got to

understand finances. And so it was never, it was never even a thought in my mind that credit was an option, that going into debt was something that you could do if you wanted to afford a certain lifestyle. It was always the idea that you had to live within your means. And so that discipline came at that very important moment where I got my first job and had to make it happen. Okay, so you say you're good with money, and what does that mean? And you didn't have any credit. You paid cash for everything? I put everything on a credit card that I paid off immediately. Because one of the other things I'd learned is we didn't have the concept of credit growing up in all these other countries or having to earn a credit, basically, or credit history. And so when I got to the U.S. and tried to go get a cell phone in college, I was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And I go to get a cell phone. And I go to get a cell phone. phone and they said, no, we don't even know who you are. We're not going to give you a cell phone. You need to pay us a $500 deposit for us to give you a cell phone. And for a college kid, who is like $2,000

to the year, it was like, what? Do you want to take a fourth of my money? And so it taught me, I started trying to learn about how to build credit. And as you guys well know, the credit building systems in this place are really weird. You have to get debt to build credit. You have to have a credit card to build credit. And I would get rejection letter after rejection letter from all these credit card companies who would not give me a credit card because they were just like, we don't know who you are. You're a flight risk is what they actually stated in the letter. Yeah, Citibank actually said that to me.

But Amex, Amex, thank you Amex. I don't know why, gave me an $800 student blue credit card. And that was the first opportunity for me to start building credit and really starting to learn that, oh, you know what, this is something that I'll have to do so that I can actually get a credit card. and then spend the money on that card and earn points and so forth. So were you saving any money when you were making $30,000 a year living in San Francisco? Yeah. So one of the best things that happened to me is I actually wrote him an email a year ago. We had a college professor at UNC Chapel Hill. I went to business school as an undergrad.

And he was a finance professor. And he sat us down one day in finance class. And he was like, guys, today we're not going to talk about corporate finance. Today we're actually going to talk about personal finance. And he did an entire. two classes on personal finance. And he gave us very, very sort of rough rules of them. And the thing he said to us in particular in that conversation was he said, you have to start early with retirement. And he showed us all the charts of starting early with retirement. And he said, make every single one of you sitting in the room today, there were about 50 of us in the class, he said, you need to commit to me that you're going to put $100 from every paycheck into a retirement account. And it was just a very

random number, $100, you know, but he just made us make that commitment. And so the first job out of college, it just stuck with me. I was like, I have to put $100 out of every paycheck into a retirement account. And because I was lucky enough not to be paying rent, I took anything else I earned and put it into savings. And I had a rough goal for myself to try to save about $1,000 a month, which was pretty much where I landed every single time. So my first year was having a job, I had save $12,000. In San Francisco, making $30,000 a year. Wow. I was just, I was, I was like cheap. I mean, let me be really honest. I was, I was living the frugal life, but it was, it was awesome. It was one of the best feelings ever because it was such good discipline that every single job I got

after that. And as my salaries increased over time, I just kept with that. I said, oh, I have to save at least $1,000. And then if I got more money, I was like, oh, let me try to push that. And so I would do the same thing with my retirement savings and the same thing with my salary. When you use the word savings, do you mean that you're putting that into a bank account in a savings account or do you mean that you're investing that? You know, has that involved at all? Yeah. So back then, it meant I was just putting in a bank account because that's all I really knew.

I didn't really get savvy about investing until much later in my own career because I had focused so much on, oh, I just need to have money in case I need it. And so I would put it in a bank account. and I remember I would send the bank account statements to my mom being like, mom, look, I have so much money in my bank accounts. And I was so proud of myself. And over time, I learned that that was maybe not always the right thing to be doing. Because even when I was putting it into a 401K or a retirement account, one of the challenges I had is I couldn't access a 401K. I wasn't a U.S. citizen. I wasn't a green card holder. So I actually couldn't sign up for any of those accounts. So I had to go do, force myself to go do the research of signing up, like, what kind of

retirement account can I sign up for? And how do I sign up for it? And I came across a company called ING, which no longer exists in the U.S. They were bought out by Capital One, but I opened my first Roth for IRA at ING direct. And that was the moment that I started investing, so to speak. So Justin, if someone was in your shoes today, what would be the equivalent mechanism that they could go through to do that? Do you know that off the top of your head? to go do the research, you mean? Yeah, to go and set up a retirement account if they have, you know, if they're not a citizen or have it, you know, or trying to solve those types of issues.

Yeah, the good news is that everybody, like all the big institutions support a Roth IRA. I just didn't even know that it was a kind of account that existed. Everyone always just talked about the 401K. So all of the major institutions offer it, you know, the robo advisors offer it, Wellfront and Betterment both offer it, Vanguard offers it. So you can really sign up for it anyway. but for most of our international students, they didn't realize that that was an option until later on.

I didn't realize that was not an option. So a traditional 401K, you have to be a U.S. citizen for, what about a traditional IRA? Do you know if you have to be a U.S. citizen for that? You know, I don't think you have to be, but I wasn't savvy enough about this stuff. Like, I didn't understand that stuff. So I had just gone and done the research.

And then when I looked at the traditional IRA and the Roth, The thing I liked about the rock, and this will tell you a little bit about my personality, is one of the big questions to ask yourself when you're opening our retirement account is, do you think you're going to earn more money today? Or do you think you're going to earn more money when you're retiring? And I was like, oh, I'm going to be a multimillionaire when I retire. So the plan is to open up, you know, the account right now so that I pay the taxes now and just get to coast on all of the compounding interest. So that was, I mean, it sounds like a really silly way to make a decision. But that was really how I made my decision was I said,

I'm going to open a rough because it makes the most sense for me, given where I'm at my personality. That isn't a silly way to make a decision. That's a very savvy and intelligent forward thinking at a loss for words. But you know, it's funny because I made my husband go through the exact same exercise. And he was just like, but how do you know that you're going to be rich when you're retired. And I was like, that is such a stupid question. Because you're just in the bigger pockets money. Yes, exactly. There you go. Why would I want to retire poor when I could retire rich?

I was like, because I'm going to do a lot of things throughout my life and make a lot of money. And he was like, okay. So how did this mentality scale? Did your income change? Did your circumstances change? And how did you're investing in an application of your, that spread between your income expenses change over time? Yeah, so I was crazy. I'll be honest. So when I was young and I was working in a nonprofit, I didn't realize that $30,000 wasn't a lot of money. To me, it was a lot. I was like,

wow, from zero to 30, I'll call it a win. But as I went and started working in other institutions, I actually focused a lot on, you know, I was lucky enough that I was getting a lot of new opportunities. So my job was constantly changing. I got promoted like an obscene number of times in the first 10 years of my career. Can you tell I'm like a type A crazy person? And when that happened, my salary increased. So, you know, between the first year that I started working and like the couple years down, my salary was tripled, quadripple of what I was earning at donor's shoes. And so as those things happened, I, one of the things that I realized I was doing very naturally, but later we found out sort of the terms for was I never really allowed lifestyle creep to happen.

So every time my salary increased, I would go in and I would say, okay, you know, at this salary, I was saving $1,000. So if I double my salary, I should try to be saving $2,000. And it didn't always happen. Like, it wasn't always that clean for me. But it was very clear. There was sort of a basis that I was a baseline that I was going off of and building on every single year as my numbers got bigger.

And there were definitely some years. I remember I was about five years in to my career. And I decided that I was going to buy a car. And I was so proud of myself because I walked into a BMW. dealership, mind you. Like, not a Toyota or, you know, I walk into BMW dealership and I negotiated for a brand new 2011 BMW. And I paid for it in all cash. And I was so proud of myself because I'd saved all this money over all these years. And I didn't really have very concrete goals beyond buying a car or doing other things. I hadn't really thought that far ahead. And so to me, the next big thing to do is to go

do a big purchase. And when I paid for that car, I was so incredibly proud of myself. And I was like, I put all my money down. This is money I earned that I, you know, have spent years collecting. And then I drove the car off the lot and realized that my car depreciated quite significantly in that 30 second drive. And suddenly you've had this sinking feeling like, oh, what have I done? So that moment, you know, what percentage of your savings was that? You know, I don't remember the exact percentage, but it was like a significant amount. Okay. Like I would say like somewhere at least 30% or above.

Okay, got it. So this sounds like a turning point in your philosophy with money. Is that what I'm gathering here? What changed about your philosophy and an approach to money after you realized that you just lost 20% of your car's value? Yeah. So I immediately went and did like a ton of research of how do you maintain car value if you buy it at full price? basically, you know, came across that whole Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, thinking that you're just basically going to drive that car for life. So guess what? The car is parked right outside and we still

own it and we still drive it and we will continue to do so forever. But what I realized in that moment, it was it was sort of an interesting phase was I was incredibly proud of myself and felt very accomplished because I bought something that was expensive and that had a status symbol attached to it. But like very pragmatically, it was not actually helping me. And I think that was a sort of eye-opening experience for me personally because I was like, wait a second, I don't want to spend my money on nice things. I want to spend my money on making more money. And so that was a moment of shifting my thinking of not really necessarily trying to go buy stuff, but rather giving myself an opportunity to use any money that I ever earned or saved or invested

to actually help me grow my life. And I think shifting that mentality started shifting so many behaviors in my life. I cut back a lot of the sort of like silly things. Like I would, I would happily spend, you know, a few hundred dollars on shopping or food or whatever it may be. But I've really reassessed a lot of those things. And now today, my husband jokes that his shopping budget is much larger than my. So with regards to your portfolio, I'm gathering it over those 10 years because this is, you're 10-ish around when you bought this car, right? Yep. Yep. And your portfolio, I'm envisioning looks like $100 a month, very consistently, plus a little extra in your retirement accounts invested somehow, and then a huge pile of cash in a savings account.

Is that right? That's exactly right. Yeah. So how does that change? Yeah. So when I stopped thinking about buying cars, I actually started thinking about investing. So I started looking at the stock market. And my first sort of realization of the stock market was like it's like legal gambling is the way I describe it. And I actually love that because I love to gamble. I'm like, oh, this is funny. I think I could in another life be a gambling addict. And so when I started getting involved in stock market, I was like, okay, well, how do I invest

my money? So again, I created like a very out of thin air rule of thumb that every new year's, I would go and take $1,000 out of my savings and put it in the market. And I started doing that around the same time that I was thinking about buying the car. And I would pick stocks based on complete common sense. Like I would say, oh, what are the things I like to use and the companies I think that are doing interesting things? I was committed to buying a Starbucks coffee every single morning. I am that girl and I have no shame about it. So I put money in Starbucks. So I went through this like entire thing and I bought 10 stocks for $1,000, you know, that first year. And then every year I increased that number because I got more and more comfortable with it. And then as the months

went on, sometimes I would do it twice a year. And then I would do it three times a year. So at this point, the majority of my cash is actually in the market. It's not in cash. But it was a good, I really baby stepped my way into it rather than like plunging in. And retirement to me didn't feel like an investment. It just felt like a savings account. So in some ways, even though I was technically investing by retirement, I didn't feel that way. This is so fun. So you went ahead and bought 10 stocks. it doesn't sound like this was based on a tremendous amount of like theorized research and this

you have index funds and all that kind of stuff. But you bought 10 stocks because you're like, I want to put all in one, I'm going to do it on 10 things that are practical common sense to me. And you created, I'm going to coin this term, the oddity index that you continued to purchase

over the years. Yeah. That's awesome. You know what's actually interesting? I remember getting interested in investing and I was like, oh, let me email my family. And I was like, hey, guys, I'm thinking about starting to invest. Where do you think I should invest? And a couple wrote me back and was like, I have no idea. And a couple wrote me back and said, index funds. And I was like, well, that just sounds boring. That was my reaction. Exactly. It is. Right. Like, you're like, oh, but as a person who enjoys learning about money, like, to me, I was like, this is not fun. This is not utilizing all of my sort of talents. So I was like, I want to go learn about how to actually get into the market. Like, I want actual stock. And I remember a friend of mine had been given Riggily stock by her grandparents when she was born or something.

And they would send her a packet of Rigglies every year. I don't know. It's like a weird thing that they do. And I was just like, hey, I want that. Like I want somebody to send me a packet of Rigglies. Wait, Riggles or her grandparents would send. Rigglies sent a pack of gun. No, no. Riggily sent her a passport.

It was like a weird, bizarre thing that they did. And I was just like, I want that thing to happen to me. So that was the moment where I was like, I'm going to go start buying stocks. Like forget index funds. I'm going to go buy stocks. And I will say, I don't know how, but obscenely lucky that my stocks outperformed the index funds. So in hindsight, it was probably not a bad decision.

But most people, one, would not have the interest to go identify which stocks they want to invest in and to really try to maintain those year on year. So it was a total personal dynamic that actually ended up working out for me. over the long bread. Okay, so what year was this that you first threw your $1,000 into the rig? Oh, man. You guys are really testing my memory. This was after your car, which was a brand new 11, so like 12 or 13. Yeah, I want to say probably, yeah, in 2012 or 2011. Yeah, sometime around that. Okay, so that was when the stock market had hit a complete bottom and then started its like hockey stick, meteorite rise. But the only reason it went so well is,

because you were finally investing. So thank you as an investor who was invested at that time. Thank you for changing the turn of the markets with your brilliant stock picking. I want to know what stocks you were invested in besides Starbucks. Do you remember any of them? Yeah. So I bought Coca-Cola. I was like everyone drinks Coca-Cola. So I would buy Coca-Cola. Yes. Warren buys Coca-Cola. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He drinks it every. It's crazy. Every day. But you're absolutely right. The stock market had tanked. So I was like, ooh, good moment to jump in as well. So I bought a bunch of banking stock. So I bought City and Bank of America when they were like not worth nothing.

And funnily enough, a few years after that, Facebook IPOed. And I bought Facebook stock. I think I put like the most amount of my money in Facebook. I want to say like $3,000 in Facebook at $20. And so that really skyrocketed for me. You know, today Facebook is it about, I think, $180, 190 right now. Do you still have Facebook? Yeah.

But I actually want to sell my Facebook stuff. We'll talk more about that later. And so those were the kinds of things, like how I was making some of those decisions. And the other thing that I was totally shocked about was when I tried to talk to my friends about it, I was like, oh, what stocks are you buying? They would clam up. They would freak out. They would stop talking.

And they were just like, why are you asking me these questions? Don't talk to me about this stuff. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. And so that was when I realized that like even trying to talk about money was actually way more taboo than I realized. During this period of 2011-ish, 2012, when you started buying these stocks, what was happening with your career? Was it continuing to just, hey, you're chugging along in that 100-todont. It sounded like triple, quadruple, your 30-ca, construction, 120-ish. You're just continuing to just save more and get promoted?

Exactly right. So originally I started saving, and I even started getting really interested in real estate and bought a house, an apartment, I should say, in D.C. and then over time, what I was real, and I was really excited about my apartment because I could rent it for more than the mortgage cost. And so that allowed me to start actually earning more income. And I would call it passive income at that point because I was just getting this nice, lovely check every month that I got to do more things with. And I was actually working at an education technology startup in New York. And one of the things that kept happening was, again, I was that Indian girl who was like talking about my business. budget and passive income. And people started approaching me and saying, hey, you're always talking about money. Can you talk to us about money? So I actually started teaching a class on personal finance. And as a part of teaching that class, I started doing a lot of research into alternative investment

options. So I looked at peer to peer lending. I still have investments in lending club that I can't get out. I looked at the stock market. I looked at real estate. I looked at index of mutual funds. So that was the moment where I started to get a lot more sophisticated about what I was doing with that money. But the thing that I just kept coming back to was real estate because, you know, my dad has always been really big on real estate and always taught us since we were little kids that whenever you have money, go buy land, because land is going to be valuable. And it's worked really well for him in his life up to a point until he needs liquidity.

And then, you know, it was a moment of struggle for him as well. But it taught me a lot about how to think about real estate. state. So at a very young age, I was able to start saying, okay, well, what if I were to go buy a house? What would that look like? How do I think about the mortgage versus the rent that I could get from the house versus the expenses of the house? So I got really savvy about that stuff very quickly. And at the same time, this is sort of a kind of sad story, but our apartment in Brooklyn burned down. We were living in New York. Yeah. And one night in the middle of the night, 3 a.m. in the morning, we somebody started, we woke up and it was the apartment was covered in

spoke. And we ran out and the cops were out and they were like, get out, get out, get out. And our building went up in flames. And I learned a lot about what happens when the thing that you never expected to happen to you would happen. And how do you deal with that? And how do you recover from that? And we did not have rent or interest insurance. So that was a really, another really important moment for me because, you know, right before that, I was like investing in savings and being really smart with my money, but the thing that I had never really protected myself for and nor my husband was neither of us had really thought about what happens in a moment of crisis. And how do we make sure that we protect ourselves from it? And we have the right kind of

coverage to protect ourselves from it. And so I was incredibly lucky because my family, my employer really rallied around me. And it's, I will tell you, like, when an employer rallies around you in a tough moment. It is an incredible way to build loyalty and commitment to a company. But it was a very sort of eye-opening experience for us because we realized how quickly everything that we had that we worked so hard to put together. I had like bought every single piece in that apartment so thoughtfully and carefully was completely shattered and crumbled and destroyed. What year was this? That was 2014. 2014. Okay. Yeah. And bringing this back, like I'm trying to I think about your holistic financial position, how that's contributing to this moment, right?

Because this is obviously more than finance. But what I gathered from the past 10 years of the story prior leading up to this is that you had a large cash position and were slowly increasing your allocation to stocks from an asset basis. Yep. Did you still always have a big cash cushion? I did. Yeah. So I always had an emergency fund, always.

And the emergency fund was very, very large, in fact, almost to the point that I think it was too large. So in that moment, we were actually not screwed in terms of a financial perspective, but it was still a massive shock to suddenly be like every piece of furniture we own and the apartment we live in is suddenly like gone. Yes, of course. In our, this is New York landlords for you, our landlords, so there were two buildings right next to each other, tiny apartment buildings that burned together. One was like completely burnt end to end, whereas ours was half burnt. So the windows were blown out and our walls were destroyed, but the landlords actually worked very hard to get the buildings back up and running so that they could put folks back into

their apartments. So some of my neighbors, for example, got one day of rent off. And I was like, what? We are not moving into this burnt apartment. So I went and got a lawyer and went to the landlords and I was like, we are not living. They forced us to move back into the apartment after two weeks. And I was like there's no way we're moving into this apartment. If the air was horrible, it was just, it was, people would ask me if I was a smoker when I would go out because my clothes just reek of smoke. They didn't do any smoke remediation? They did, but it was so badly done. No, smoke remediation means there's no smoke smell anymore. They did some level of it, but it was atrociously bad. And so I went and I negotiated three months off of rent from our landlords. And my husband and I told every single one of our neighbors

what we'd done. And people were just like, ah, it's too much trouble. I don't really want to push back. It's confrontational. Whereas I was like, bring it on. Tell me who I have to talk to to get this stuff figured out. So those were the kinds of opportunities that even though I had a cash cushion, I was also not afraid to go push back against folks. And I really made an attempt to try to figure out some of the legality. And it turns out that there's something called the warranty of habitability in New York City that you can use to really push back on your landlord. So we were able to get off three months of rent, which again gave us the ability to build back that cash cushion very quickly, even though we had to outlay it. So during that three months, were you living in there? No. So we didn't actually live there

for the first month and a half because it was just, honestly, it was inhabitable. But then we slowly moved back in. and we were living with friends and family in the months that we weren't there. So how did this apartment fire change your outlook in terms of life and finances moving forward from there? Did things change yet again in terms of your asset allocation and how you're going to plan out your financial future? Yeah. So that inflection point was another really important one in my financial journey where

suddenly I realized, again, this was sort of a repeat of what that car experience had taught me, that stuff wasn't something I really wanted to invest in. So when we lost all of that furniture that I had so carefully sort of, you know, put together piece by piece, suddenly I was like, I don't really want more stuff. I just want to figure out the life that I want to lead. And it sent my husband and I down this path of, are we living the lives that we want to live in the places that we want to live? And that was the starting point of realizing that we really didn't want to live in New York City anymore. We didn't really want to be renters anymore. And we wanted to go and build a much more sort of balanced life in a different place. So my husband and I conveniently got married in that same

time. That was a very eventful year for us. And we decided to take a two and a half month honeymoon road trip across the entire country. So we packed our dog in the BMW and drove all across multiple states looking for our next home. And we ended up picking five cities that we both actually agreed on. But the order in which we wanted to live in the cities was total opposite. So Denver was my first choice with San Francisco being my last, and San Francisco with his first choice, with Denver being his last. And so my husband and I, we left New York City. We went on this two-and-a-half-month road trip, and then we both ended up accepting jobs in him in San Francisco and me in Denver. And that was where we started this entire new journey, both financially and sort of like entertainingly together,

where we said, okay, we're going to have two different households. He was flying from San Francisco on Friday and flying out of Denver on Monday every single weekend. And we lived this sort of like tiered life for about a year. But what happened in that time was I actually ended up leaving a relatively large startup, I would say, and going and working at a very small startup, a three-person startup called Guild Education, who I'm a huge fan of. And in that year of working on Guild, realized how much I enjoyed the roots of entrepreneur, the early days of chaos and mess. And you're trying to figure out a business and things are great, things are happening and how do you do that? And I loved that experience so much in that year that I, when I, at the end of that year, when I said, okay, we need to

live in the same city and finally move to San Francisco, it was just very clear to me that I was ready to start my own company. I'd sort of been training for my whole career up until this point to start my own company. And I was in a good place financially to do so because I'd been building up all this cash. I had a really good investment portfolio and I'd have the chance to invest in real estate that was bringing me this sort of passive income. So my husband and I had this conversation and we said, okay, now is the moment to really make that least. Can you walk us through what that portfolio looked like that made you feel comfortable with that? Like was that a year or two or even more of cash? What was the passive income relative to your lifestyle expenses? Yeah. So I actually thought

very carefully about my cash because I knew that I was going to invest in my own. business. So I assumed that I was going to make a so-called investments of cash into my business. So what I said, and the good thing that was happening in this time, this is a dynamic that was sort of in the background, was when my husband and I first moved to New York, he was my boyfriend, we were not married, and he was a PhD student earning like almost zero money. Whereas over the time, once he had moved to San Francisco, he was now suddenly earning a meaningful income. And I was quitting my job and going to make zero money. So the day, he had moved. So the day, he had moved to dynamic actually totally flipped. But what that allowed me to do was I felt still very secure

in our ability to pay our bills because I knew he was employed and he'd be able to make those things happen. So I didn't think too hard about runway because I knew that he was making enough money to cover us. But at the same time, what I was thinking a lot about was, okay, how do I take my cash, still have an emergency fund in a worst case scenario situation, which we'd experience, and be able to then go and actually put money. into the business. So I took a big pool of money of the cash that I'd been sort of hoarding, as I called it at the time, and put it into the company. And then I actually took the sort of rental income that I was earning every single month from the apartment and used that as a way to build

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It sounds like they're separated. And I'm not passing judgment. I'm just asking. Yeah, it's a great question. So my husband and I, when we first started dating, we obviously had very different pools of money. We were together for a very long time. We were together for six years before we actually moved in together.

And we actually lived in different states. So there was always a very strict separation of finances, but we started having shared expenses quite early on in our relationship because we were traveling to each other. So if it was easier for him to travel or cheaper for him to travel, he would travel rather than me. So interestingly, in our relationship, we actually got a shared credit card quite early on in our relationship and just put everything that we considered shared expenses on that card. When we moved in together, he was making much less than I was. I was making significantly more money than him, but Dummer is much happier, much more comfortable walking into J-Crew and buying a $300 sweater than I am. So I was very

clear with him, and this was a direct sort of output of my experience and watching my parents in my childhood, and my parents were divorced, and they definitely didn't agree on money at all. And so I was very clear to him that I was like, hey, babe, I'm happy to pay more expenses across a bunch of different things. But the thing that would really just really piss me off is if I was paying for all of that and then you went to J-Crew and bought a $300 sweater. So it was a really interesting moment for us as a couple because he was like, no, I hear that. And it was very important to him that he was like, I want to feel like I'm contributing to the expenses and the household and all of these things that we want to do. So him and I actually had a lot of very open and honest conversations about money and actually

agreed that when we moved in together, we were going to sort of pool some of our expenses and use that to pay for all the things that we wanted to do together. And we would contribute to those pools in different ways because I was making more. And then we would keep some of the money apart so that we didn't fight about him going to J. Kru or not. He was like, as long as I'm contributing to our shared pool, you shouldn't get stressed about if I go to J. Crew or not. And I was like, that's totally fair. And so that actually, that pattern continued. So when we actually got married, we talked a lot about whether we wanted to put our finances into one place. And he said to me, he was like, you know, I actually really like the system we're working with. Are you fine with if we

just do this? And I was like, yeah, let's just keep trying this and see where it goes. And it wasn't until I started working on Zeta and really doing research with other couples that I realized that this phenomenon is actually way more common in our generation. Because I thought Delmar were the, Delmar and I were like that weird, abnormal couple that were just doing things totally different. After you transitioned to this new company, what was your goal with money going forward? What was the end goal, I guess, in your financial journey? Yeah, you know, so I've thought a lot about this. It's such a good question to ask.

I used to joke that I was like, my goal is to build the start of my personal finance class, my first slide was like, here's who I am. And my goal is to get a private debt, was what I used to say. But what I realized is for me, the pursuit of money or generating wealth is really actually about being able to live by my convictions. And what I mean by that is what money allows you to do is it gives you optionality and flexibility, right? And I have all these like really strong beliefs about how I think the world should work or how you should be able to stand up to certain injustices or how I think the dog should be treated. And what money allows me to do is actually put my money where my mouth is.

And so I was, this actually came up last week because we're trying to build a house. San Francisco, and I'm happy to talk about that to the extent that you guys care. But it's like an incredibly frustrating and unfair and non-transparent process. And the entire time, you're just putting money out there constantly. And you have no idea if your project is going to get approved. It's insane. But the other day, we have this moment of inflection where I wrote a medium post about it. And I was about to click publish. And my husband said to me, is this really worth it to you? Do you want to really piss off the planning department and make it possibly impossible for us to build this house? Or is it worth it to you to just get the house built? And I thought sat back and I said,

you know what, we've put too much of our investment thesis into rebuilding this house that there's just no way I can blow the money. But why I want to be rich is so that one day I can actually press publish on that medium article. Hey, once the house is built, you can hit publish. Exactly right. So delayed gratification here. But it was a good moment of me realizing why I was even pursuing this and what that pursuit was, you know, what the end goal here was. So where are you on the pursuit of financial freedom or financial independence? It sounds like a huge pile of FU money is the goal.

Right? I think that's exactly right. It's like a huge pile of FU money that you can use for whatever it is, like whatever you think is not. happening enough. I joke that the end goal here is to go get a dog sanctuary, build a dog sanctuary in Colorado, overlooking the Rockies and just saving hundreds and hundreds of dogs from a miserable existence. But where we're at right now is, you know, I realize that like, yes, I could, I could spend my life trying to spend less than I earn. I could spend my life investing. I could spend my life doing all of the responsible money things. But the truth is, it's just not my personality.

I would refer to as an amasser personality where I hate spending money unless I think it's going to make me money. And so I was very much always sort of at the back of my mind thinking, what I really want to be able to do is one day go build a business that allows me to generate that FU money that I could then go and use towards all these other things that I wanted to make happen. But because of the career that I'd had, I'd spent my entire career working in impact and startups and technology, I knew that whatever I worked on was going to be something that I felt really passionate about and something that I felt like would have a very tangible impact in the world. So that was the moment where I started to say, okay, I think I'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life really working on amassing wealth rather than trying to maintain the status quo or sort of grow at an incremental pace. Not that there's anything wrong with that approach, but it was just one that didn't make sense or fit my personality. Okay, I really want to know about your journey with money, with your husband, because, you know, I get this question a lot from a lot of our listeners.

My husband isn't on the same path or my partner doesn't feel the same way. And I think this is a huge problem that a lot of people have. Most people don't talk about money on a date or before they're dating or before they get, or well, not before they're dating, but before they get married or, you know, nobody wants to talk about money because it's taboo and it's not polite and all of that. So I really want to do that. But we're running out of time because. This has been a very amazing story.

You have such good questions, guys. Do you have time to come back tomorrow to talk more about couples' money? I would love to. Okay. That is fantastic. We are going to make an episode 82 and a half that we will release tomorrow. So come back tomorrow and listen to the story about how Aditi and her husband, Delmar, were able to come together or work together on their finances.

But now it is time for the famous four. Aditi, these are the same four questions and one command that we ask all of our guests. Are you ready? Yes. Bring it on. What is your favorite finance book? I'm actually currently reading The Money Diaries book by Lindsay Stamberry, who's the creator behind the Money Diaries, and I've found I've really been enjoying it because it's very practical and very easy to wrap your head around.

But I also have to say, I'd love the index card. I thought it was one of the easiest money books I have ever read. Nice. Those are both great books. What was your biggest money mistake? That car? BMW. Just the depreciating asset nature of it. I would probably the next time I buy a car by a used one and one that maybe isn't so blinked. Nice. Yeah, I think that's a great one. That's not an uncommon biggest money mistake. And, you know, frankly, while it wasn't probably the smartest purchase you ever made, it certainly isn't the worst money mistake you could have made. And it's been incredible on multiple fronts. Don't get me right. wrong. It was one of the best things to have. It's an all-wheel drive. So when we went on that road trip, it was so often to have it. And it's kept up. But God, when it breaks, ooh, you're paying

through the nose. Yeah. Yeah. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? You know, I think that personal finance is sort of made to be complicated because the industry benefits from it being really hard to figure out. But it's actually, if you boil it down, really, really common sense principles, which is why I talked about the index. part is like whatever you can do, try to spend less than you earn. Whatever you can do, try not to go into debt, you know? And there's obviously caveats to all of these things, but I think there's just some like very, very basic principles that you can use. A few months ago, I wrote my top five principles in an article and I posted it on my Facebook just as a way of like, hey guys, you should learn about

this. And I had all these people, my friends write me and be like, holy crap, nobody explained just these basic concepts to me. And so that's what I, I, I, really, really encourage people to just say is like, I know money feels scary. It feels like the thing you don't want to talk about. It feels like the thing you would rather avoid. But if you just take a few moments to come up with like two or three rules of thumb that you think you can stick to, it's a phenomenal starting point. That's great. I love that. And I think that there's a lot of people who discover something new. I'm going to change my life. So I'm going to make a complete 180. I'm going to do everything different. And you're going to fail if you do everything different. You have to

do small things. You have to baby step your way into it before you can make these huge changes. I love that. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? Mine is so politically incorrect. So, like, I don't even know if I can, let me

see. One of my more favorite ones is our dogs, we have two dogs who we basically treat us kids. And my husband's African and I'm Indian. And so it's not at parties. It's actually at the dog part. But we get stopped a lot because of our dogs because they're two silver-looking things, and they're just really, really pretty mutts. But people always,

always ask us, like, what kind of dogs are these? And I just straight up without even, like, thinking for a second, I'd say, they're half black, half Indian. And people panic when I say that, because they're like, this is such a weird thing for somebody to say, and I don't know if I should laugh or I should laugh. In New York, everyone used to laugh. In Denver, people were just like, oh, why did you say these things? Nice. That is fun. I am going to give a shout out to my daughter, Claire, who asked me,

Mom, what is red and bad for your teeth? What? A brick. Oh, man. And I don't know if she means like you're chewing on a brick or if you get hit in the face with the brick. I always imagine it's getting hit in the face with the brick. But when she said that, I laughed for a good, solid minute. So thank you, Scott.

I have told her about these jokes multiple times, and now she looks up jokes for me all the time. Nice. I like it. Okay. Audity, where can people find out more about you? Yeah, so you can go to my website at oddityshaker.com, or you can actually learn about Zeta at askzada.com. Awesome. And we will link to both of those in the show notes. I imagine some folks will have a little trouble spelling Adity. Yeah.

And the show notes for this episode can be found. at biggerpockets.com slash money show 82. Okay, Audity, we will call you tomorrow to talk more about your advice for couples that are just starting to have this conversation. So I'm super looking forward to that. It's my favorite topic, so I can't wait. Oh, good. Okay, we'll talk to you soon.

All right, that was Audity Shaker from AskZata.com. Mindy, what you think? Oh, I love this episode. I love her story. I love that she didn't have renters insurance. Scott, really? You have to have richer's insurance. No, I got a lot out of this episode. I really enjoyed

her story. She's clearly an expert in money in general and in... Well, I think what was really interesting about the story was that she had these inflection points. And at each point, she came to understand kind of deep

financial concepts on her own that I, for example, had the privilege of reading about in books before I even going done this past. For example, she bought her car and then realized implicitly without having the privilege of reading, you know, the millionaire next door or one of these books that kind of explains those concepts. Oh, this is an appreciating asset. Then, oh, I should invest in appreciating assets. I should spread my risk across these different things. I'm going to do that in this manner.

And I'm going to be consistent. And, you know, she's applying the concept of dollar cost averaging and to some effect index when investing across these things with her oddity index. over time, while maintaining a very stable base of high cash flow, high savings rate, and then the expansion into other asset classes over time. And I think it shows a really kind of brilliance here that she was able to understand and apply these concepts without having the academic framework that we are able to approach money from now because of the study that we've had. I mean, it's just, it's really cool that she's able to do that. I would say she is insatiably curious.

She knows she should be doing something. She knows she doesn't know all the ins and outs of that. So she goes and does research and she figures it out on her own, which is in some cases that's a more powerful lesson learned than, you know, having somebody just tell you it. And she's not done yet. So that was her personal story. Her real field of expertise is with couples and money, right?

Yes, yes. And that, I'm super excited for tomorrow's episode. We have a bonus Tuesday episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast coming out tomorrow, show 82 and a half, similar to the show 55 and a half that we did with Christy and Bryce from Millennial Revolution. Audity comes back tomorrow to share her advice on couples and money and the conversation you should be having with your partner if you're not on the same page. That's right. great stuff there. So definitely tune in tomorrow for that. Yes. Should we get out of here, Scott? Let's get out of here. From episode 82 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, I am Mindy Jensen, and this is Scott Trench saying, peace out, yo.