BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 91: Debt is NOT a Death Sentence with Melanie Lockert of Dear Debt

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

Melanie Lockert joins us today to share her story of student loan debt and her subsequent inability to find a job when she graduated into one of the worst job markets America had ever seen, and her spiral into depression and shame over her debt. Melanie is not alone - as of 2018, more than 44.2 MILLION borrowers owe more than $1.5 TRILLION! (link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt) September is National Suicide Prevention month - and Melanie hosts a Suicide Prevention Blog Tour every year due to the sheer number of people who find her blog when they search "I want to kill myself because of debt". Melanie advocates sitting down and figuring out exactly how much your debt is costing you per day, which was both a big source of shame as well as a HUGE motivator for her to pay it off. She also shares her journey out of debt - and out of depression through therapy. Melanie also shares resources for people feeling overwhelmed. Find counseling options at www.openpathcollective.org, talk to someone through text by texting HOME to 741741, which is the Crisis Text line or call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255. In This Episode We Cover: Melanie's journey with money Experiencing mental health issues because of debt Start blogging and wrote break-up letters to debt How she paid off her debt Her main side hustle How much it costs her to pay her student loan debts The reason why debt is depressing The biggest mistake people are making Her advice to anyone who has the same path with her Five stages of grief that are similar to paying off debt On living in denial Steps to prepare your mindset and addressing the underlying issues  Therapy hack What keep her motivated Talking about the first person who reach out to her How she personally managed to pay off her student loans On making more money What her life look like after she paid off her student loan debt And SO much more! Links from the Show Craigslist TaskRabbit FinCon Mint Open Path Collective Crisis Text Line - Text HOME to 741741 Suicidal Hotline - 1-800-273-8255 Suicide Prevention National Foundation for Credit Counseling Annual Credit Report Side Hustle Nation BiggerPockets Money Podcast 90: From Unplanned Pregnancy to Financially Free with Melissa from Traveling Wallet BiggerPockets Money Podcast 28: How Anyone Can Easily Make Extra Money Using Side Hustles with Nick Loper BiggerPockets Money Podcast 50: Rebuilding Your Financial Life After Bankruptcy with Patrice Washington BiggerPockets Money Podcast 35: Hacking Your Life to Live for (Almost) Free with Craig Curelop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast show number 91 with Melanie Locker. Debt is like our favorite national pastime, really. So getting out of debt is like breaking the status quo in a way. So we really do not need to internalize all of this stuff so much. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you're looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation. you're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I am having a fantastic day. It is the day after I return home from FinCon, and I could go on for 17 hours about how awesome FinCon was. I do want to say one thing about FinCon.

It was awesome. PT puts on a great show. I will say that there is a community pass available for people who aren't bloggers, aren't podcasters, but that want to attend FinCon. So we will have this in later shows. We'll have a code for people to sign up for FinCon on the community pass.

And it's a discounted price for people to just come and hang out with their favorite bloggers and podcasters. Next year, so 2020, FinCon is in Long Beach, California. So I had a great time. I saw Melanie for like 14 seconds at FinCon. And it was just, it was so amazing to connect with all the people that go to FinCon every year and all the personal finance bloggers and the podcasters

and things like that. So if you're interested, I think you should check it out. It'll be a super lot of fun. But today, we are talking to Melanie Lockhart. She is from Deardette.com and the Lola Retreat, the co-founder of the Lola Retreat. And every September, she organizes a suicide prevention awareness blog tour because she gets a lot of people who are just despondent over their debt contacting her. And she's like, you know what? This is something that needs to be addressed. September is Suicide Prevention Month. And she does this whole blog tour.

And I thought, what better time to bring her on than in September so she can talk about her journey with money? Yeah. And I think this is a particularly powerful episode. You know, what gets me up in the morning and what I enjoy about this. job and doing the Bigger Pockets Money podcast and all that is because I think that if you can help the people achieve financial freedom, master their finances, gain control and power back in their lives, that you just have a better chance to realize your potential, be happy, do

whatever it is you want to do and leave your mark on the world. And that's a mission that I really buy into and get behind. On the other side of that, the inability to manage money, or not even the inability, but just having a large amount of debt and the crippling emotional and lifestyle burdens that that places on you can potentially limit to some extent, some of the potential that you might have to achieve or the happiness you can enjoy or the freedom and control you have over your life. And I think that this is the other extreme, what Melanie's doing, that she's doing fantastic work and perhaps in a more literal sense, saving lives with her financial work on her blog at Dear Debt. I mean, I think that that's kind of the real power of today,

episode is kind of getting behind the scenes of like, hey, if for whatever set of reasons you have a large pile of debt or know somebody with a large pile of debt, they might be going through this and it could be a real burden on their life and happiness and well-being. Yeah, I wanted to bring her on to tell her story. And because she has a happy ending, she was able, oh, spoiler alert, she was able to pay off her student loan debt. And it wasn't an overnight process. You know, it was a slog. She did some side hustle work. She did a lot of, like, sounds like 80-hour weeks to get this going. But she was able to do it. And she's like, I am so much happier now that I have paid off my debt. And it's just not something I could have

lived with having this horrible debt forever. And as I was at FinCon this week, I really put two and two together. What I love so much about this show is that I can share all the money stories. My money story isn't like your money story, isn't like Melanie's money story, isn't like Melissa's from last week, or Patrice Washington's from episode 50. Everybody has a different money story and everybody can resonate with a portion of somebody else's money story, but we're going to hit on a story that you are going to resonate with the most. Oh my goodness, this is exactly me. And this particular story today is just so powerful to tell because I think that it's not, unfortunately, it is not a unique story. The depression and the anxiety and the just sadness around debt.

Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going and more importantly where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool design. to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop.

Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pocket at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. I love that, said no one ever. Nobody starts a business thinking, you know what would make this more fun? Calculating quarterly estimated taxes. But somehow every small business owner ends up doing it.

Your dreams of creating, selling, and growing get replaced by late nights chasing receipts, juggling invoices, and wondering if that bad sushi lunch with Scott counts as a write-off. Change all that with Found. Found is a business banking platform built to take the pain out of managing money. It automatically tracks expenses, organizes invoices, and even preps you for tax season without you doing the heavy lifting. You can set aside money for business goals, control spending with virtual cards, and find tax write-offs you didn't even know existed. It saves time, money, and probably a few years of life expectancy. Found has over 30,000 five-star reviews from owners who say, Sound makes everything easier, expenses, income, profits, taxes, invoices even. So reclaim

your time and your sanity. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D-com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank, member FDIC. Don't put this one off. Join thousands of small business owners who have streamlined their finances with Found. Audible has been a core part of my routine for more than a decade. I started listening years ago to make better use of drive time and workouts, and it stuck. At this point, I've logged over 229 audiobook completions on Audible alone, and I still

regularly re-listen to the highest impact titles. Lately, I've been listening to Bigger Liener Stronger for Fitness, the Anxious Generation for parenting perspective and several Arthur Brooks' audiobooks that have been excellent for mental well-being. What makes Audible so powerful as its breadth. Beyond audiobooks, you also get Audible Originals, podcasts, and a massive back catalog across business, health, parenting, and more, all accessible in one app. If you're looking to turn everyday moments into real progress, Audible has been indispensable

for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BPMoney. Melanie Lockert from Deardt.com. Thank you for joining us today. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. How are you? Good.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you. I am so excited too. Like I said in the intro, I just got back from FinCon. And I did not really run into you. I like waved it to you one day and then I never saw you again. I know.

It was so big this year. Yeah, super fun. So I'm really glad that we get to connect today. Did you have a great show? I had an awesome show. I did. It was so fun. I was gone for a couple of years. So it was good to be back and see everyone and reconnect. Yeah. So I love your story. I really hate saying that because you don't have like this, you know, hey, I won the lottery and everything was great forever. Like it starts off in not an awesome place. So I don't want to be like, oh, I love that you had so much adversity. But I love your story because of the end and because of how

you got through it all. And so I want you to tell your story because you are going to tell it a little bit better than me. Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that's totally reasonable. I think we need more stories that highlight people's struggles and what they've went through. So. Yeah, it's not all happy fun. Yeah, I think a lot of people kind of have similar stories to me. You know, I borrowed $81,000 in student loans to go to two schools. Most of the student loan debt came from NYU, which is my master's degree in performance studies, which is, you know, fun arts degree. It's pretty useless. And I had graduated in May 2011, and, you know, I had already been making payments on my undergrad loans for five years. And, you know, I had so much hope. And I went on 30 different interviews in New York trying to get jobs

at arts, non-profits, which was kind of my career trajectory up into that point. And just interview after interview after interview didn't pan out. And six months after graduation, I still didn't have a full-time job and I had $68,000 left of student loan debt. And I just realized I could not afford to live in New York anymore. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon to cut my rent in half and also my then partner was there at the time. So I thought, okay, well, I'll come move and be with you and stop this long distance shenanigans and start over. And moving to Portland, Oregon, I thought it was going to be like a nice fresh start and it really just continued to be a really difficult time for me. I moved to Portland in 2012 and all I could find were temp jobs making $10 to $12 an hour for literally

the first year and a half I was there. And that was extremely difficult for me because I didn't graduate from my dream school, you know, with my master's to make $10 to $12 an hour and then have all of this student loan debt that I felt like I couldn't pay back. And so, you know, I felt a lot of guilt for going to this fancy private school. I felt a lot of shame that I couldn't get a decent job to pay it back. I felt so much depression and anxiety because I was like, how am I ever going to pay this back? I can't even get a decent enough job to pay it back. And so I just, all of 2012 was just a complete depressive blur for me. And just thinking back about it now, like, oh, so many negative emotions. And I think a lot of people feel that way about debt and we don't really talk about

it enough. And really, I just kind of hit a breaking point towards the end of 2012 where I had been crying like every day. I felt so stressed out and so depressed. And I just didn't know what to do. And I had been counseling. You know, I kept trying different things. And then, and then I just I discovered personal finance blogs, you know, kind of like a lot of people do. I was Googling how to pay off debt and came across personal finance blogs. And I found, you know, all of these amazing stories of people that had paid off debt. And I thought, wow, if they could pay off debt, then maybe I can too. But the main difference that I didn't see was that no one was talking about the emotional

relationship to debt. No one was talking about the mental health issues that I was experiencing because of debt. And so in January 2013, I started my own blog, Dear Debt. The tagline is a blog about breaking up with debt. And it's kind of based on this concept of Dear John letters, where you write breakup letters to debt. And that's really been kind of the start of the journey of me saying, I don't know how this is going to happen. I don't know how it's possible, but I'm going to pay off my debt no matter what. And starting that blog just completely changed my life in every single way possible for the better.

Going back to this period in 2012, when you were really depressed with all this debt and living in Portland, working those temp jobs, were you able to make it buy without accumulating more debt? Or were you forced to kind of take on even more or maybe consumer debt during that period to get by? So actually, I did have about $10,000 in savings that I chose to kind of whittle away to survive and continue to pay back my student loans. So I don't necessarily say that I did everything right. I just had like a weird particular way that I did things. Like technically I could have gone on an income driven repayment plan because I had federal student loans and probably would have qualified for a $0 payment. And I would have not technically had to make a student loan payment and it would have been fine. But because I know math and because I had already calculated that my student loans were costing me $11 per day in interest,

I was like, if I don't make a payment on these student loans, it's going to blow up an interest and it's going to be that much more difficult to pay these back. And so I made a conscious choice to kind of continue to live off my savings and continue to use some of that savings to pay down my debt. And so, you know, I had these $10 to $12 an hour temp jobs. And then I was side hustling seven days a week doing whatever I could from gigs from Krugslist, from TaskRabbit. I worked a lot as a brand ambassador. So if you ever see those people who are giving out free coupons at sporting events or grocery, stores or concerts or giving out free shirts.

I saw a lot of brand ambassadors this past weekend at FinCon working the booths. That's kind of what I did for my main side hustle like seven days a week, you know, when I wasn't working these temp jobs. So yes and no. Like I didn't go into further debt, but I definitely compromised my saving situation, like, you know, to continue my payments and my lifestyle. Okay. You just gave us a bunch of stuff.

I want to unpack a lot of that. First of all, you said that your student loans were costing you 11. $11 a day. Yes. On the one hand, that's a like almost depressing number to hear $11 every day is costing me just in my interest payment. On the other hand, that I would think would be a huge like fire under my butt to start paying those down.

And kudos to you to even like figure that out. So I want to invite everybody who's listening right now who has loans who figure out who figure out what it's costing you every single day and try to come up with a way to at least stay on top of the interest rate if nothing else. Well, it's so good that you say that because actually student loans are different and that the interest does accrue daily. And so I had done the math and I was like, this is what I'm paying every day. And it actually made me so angry. So angry. I was like, this is a round trip flight from New York to L.A. every month. This is like several concerts. This is going out to a nice restaurant.

every week. I got so angry that it just felt like I was incinerating $300 plus a month. And that anger really fueled my repayment. Like I could have just sued in that anger and just been so bitter and angry, but I just was like, I have to get out of debt asap because I'm so mad that I'm wasting so much money. Well, yeah. And just because you sit there and stew in it, that doesn't get that debt paid off any faster. That's just more days that you're thrown. I don't want to say throwing away $11, but that's more days that's costing you $11. You also said something like, I'm so depressed and nobody's talking about the depression. Let's talk about that for a minute.

This, I mean, $11 a day. I don't want to pay anything $11 a day. Super don't want to pay it on student loan debt, which seems like I already got the thing. Why am I still paying for it? That seems like, I don't know how to phrase it, but like depressing, I guess is. And I don't mean to be so flip about that. No, it is depressing. And I've actually done a lot of psychoanalyzing about why.

It's super depressing. And I think the reason it's so depressing is because when you get a degree, especially like with student loan debt in particular, you have so much hope about what it's going to do for your future. It's going to open doors. It's going to lead to new jobs. It's going to lead to a better raise. It's going to lead to more clout, X, Y, and Z. But instead of opening up all these opportunities, you are literally paying for your past. You are literally tethered to the past. And it just kind of feels like you're stuck in this time frame of like, wow, I'm paying for this thing that's already done that I should have already paid for and that I thought was going to open all these doors in the future,

but instead I have a ball and chain just stuck in the past, and I feel like nothing's moving forward. I think it's that feeling of stuckness, that feeling of being trapped, that can lead to the depression and anxiety because you just feel like you have no options. You feel like you're stuck. I know, people often ask me like,

oh, how did it affect your social life? How did it affect your finances? And I just remember for at least a good five years, you know, any kind of social activity, oh, do you want to come to this birthday? Do you want to come to this? I would either have to say no, or I would have to just automatically get the cheapest thing on the menu,

which that's like not fun when you're like doing mental calculus, like, hmm, what's the cheapest thing on this menu, where I don't look like a cheap skate or like, you know, when the bill comes with friends, how can I navigate this without, you know, being weird, you know, kind of all that stuff. stuff. Yeah, those are, you know, those are big questions. You know, you still want to have a social life, but you are suck. As you're saying that, I'm like, oh, I remember that Friends episode where Rachel and Joey have no money. So they go out to dinner with everybody else and they just got salad and

everybody else got these fancy dinners and they're like, we should split it six ways. And they're like, but all I had was water. And they're like, wait, wait, it's Monica's birthday. We'll split it five ways. And they're like, stop. I can't afford this. And it seems like, you know, if you are saying to a friend. I can't afford this. Your friend should be like, hey, don't worry about it. We'll just all split it up between like however we had things. Yeah, totally. But there's this shame, like you said, there's this shame of I don't want to say anything because I don't want them to think less of me. Look, if you don't have any money, spending money you don't have on a dinner that you didn't eat isn't going to change the fact that you don't have any money. Yes, exactly. It's just going to make it

worse. Totally. Did you have peers that graduated with similar levels of student loan debt and similar degrees that were you're going through this experience with? You know, not exactly. Or maybe, maybe yes, but the thing is, I didn't really tell anyone what I was experiencing because I felt so much shame and I felt so alone. It was not until I started the blog and that I actually opened up about my experience that people came out of the woodwork saying, I feel the same thing, or I have a teaching degree and I have the same thing. Or I have a degree in the arts and I have the same thing. Or I have quadruple the amount of debt and I feel the same thing. Or I have half the amount of debt that you have and I feel the same thing. And it wasn't until I personally put my story

on the front line that I start hearing from other people. Because I mean, I kind of internalized that shame as like, oh, this is taboo. This is something we don't talk about. And because, you know, NYU is such a prestigious school, I didn't want it to like solely this reputation or, like, like, you know, make it seem like, oh, I made a big mistake because then it just made me feel even worse, if that makes sense. So I hadn't really talked about that a lot with my peers. And it wasn't until I started my blog that I had fully understood that, wow, I'm not alone. And here I was beating myself up that I made this big mistake and that I'm so much dead and I feel so awful about it. And starting the blog really just made me create a community and realize that

there is a community of people out there extremely suffering because of their debt. You used this word mistake. Yeah. Like I made this big mistake. Is that how you still feel about it today? Or is that how you can answer at the time it seems? Yeah, that's a difficult question to answer. And I only say that because obviously everything that's happened since then with the blog,

which has then turned into this, you know, freelance writing career and kind of these other paths that I have now kind of launched from that blog. I can't say it's a mistake. Like I've been able to, as my friend so nicely put it, she's like, you've put your pain into your passion. Like, you've made a career out of your emotions and your pain with this debt. So, I mean, I personally can't say it's a mistake as of right now. If this whole blog career freelance writing thing didn't work out, would I say it's a mistake? Probably. I mean, not fully. I wouldn't say like it was worthless or I totally regret it. Like, I loved living in New York. I loved getting a master's.

degree, that was something I had always wanted to do. I definitely learned a lot, but from the practical standpoint, aka, would I do it again? Probably not. So I always kind of hesitate to answer that question because it's like, my situation's kind of unique because I was able to pay all this debt and it's turned into something else that I can hopefully inspire others. But, you know, if this was not what had happened afterwards, I don't know. I think that's a fantastic response and the fact that you've made something of this is remarkable. And for maybe like maybe putting yourself in the shoes of someone that's going through a similar experience and maybe going to be able to turn it to same, you know, everyone can turn in their

situation, you know, make lemonade, kind of stuff. What would you be your advice to somebody who's considering going down the same path? If they're considering going to graduate school and especially something in the arts or something that's not immediately profitable, I would really question. like what is your future going to look like, especially financially, because I'll be the first to admit no one could have told me anything. Like people tried to talk to me, like my parents, my friends, like, are you sure you want to quit your nonprofit job

and move across the country and like triple your debt load? Like people try to say things to me. And like, I was like, la la la la la la, this is my dream school. I don't care. So like I totally understand when you're like really stubborn. You're like, no, this is what I'm doing. That was totally me. but also, you know, I think we have this idea of like, oh, of course I'll make more money with a

master's degree. Of course, going to a fancy school, open up orders. Of course, like, there's this kind of narrative that like we're paying for opportunities, we're paying for open doors, or paying for a higher salary, but that's not always the case. Life doesn't always work out that way. And then also just from a practical level, like how much of your income will be going to debt. Because it doesn't matter who you are, but if you have 30 to 50% of your income, going to student loans, like your life is going to be affected by it. And then you just have to think about that in the bigger picture. I mean, yeah, I was in my late 20s, early 30s paying the majority of this off. But even then, like, all my friends were getting married and buying houses and having

kids and having pets. And I was the brokest I had ever been in my entire life. I had like lived a better life when I was 22 than I did when I was 28. And so that was really difficult for me to be like, wow, okay, I have to like scale back and have a different lifestyle. And, you know, living that way for so long does take a toll on your psyche and your relationships, both romantically and friendship-wise and professionally. And I think it's really important to consider all of that. And then if you are or were like me, where you're just like, I'm going no matter what, no one can tell me anything, then you just really have to have an open mind and just understand that anything can happen and that if you really do want to get out of debt, then it's going to take a lot of

sacrifice. And I mean, I had classmates who, you know, had the same amount of debt as me or more and their debt didn't bother them. And I think I had wished I was that kind of person like, oh, I have a hundred grand in debt. It doesn't bother me. It's fine. But that's just not how I'm built. So, you know, it really did bother me and that's why I was so crazy about it. On that point with the 100 grand of debt not bothering, what I actually was. noticed sometimes with certain people, and I think you're clearly an exception to this, is that they'll almost like bury their head in the sand to a certain extent where they're not even aware of what their interest is costing them. Often these student loans are chunked. So you've

got like 20 student loan debts of $4,000 if you have $80 grand in debt or something like that. And they're not aware of the various interest rates on that. They're not aware of how to pay them off. We had a lady last episode on Melissa the Romer. She had a situation where, she was like, I had to actually call the debt holders in order to pay off my medical debt because it wasn't like clear how to do this in the first place. I wrote my bedroom debt. So I admire the fact that you were clearly proactive about it. Can you tell us a little bit about what prompted that?

Yeah, and I am so glad you brought this up. First of all, I would totally like to acknowledge that denial is so comforting and seductive. It's like a warm cocoon that you can just stay safe in. And I was definitely not immune to the denial trap. And in my book, Dear Dad, I also kind of recall the five stages of grief are similar to paying off debt. Like, you definitely go through that denial and anger and bargaining and acceptance phase. And I think they're very similar. And so for me, I definitely had that denial phase as well.

And so I've told this story a couple of times. But when I graduated from NYU, probably that first month, you know, I knew I had to get my finances together. I knew that I should kind of get on top of things. And so I created a mint.com account, actually. And I, like, synced all my loans. And I synced my, like, paltry student income and everything. And that was actually the first time that I saw the numbers in black and white that, you know, even though I had been paying my student loans for five years for my undergrad,

and I knew I had borrowed a bunch more. I didn't really know how much I owed. And then I saw, oh, my gosh, I still owe $68,000. And it was, like, seeing it in black and white, like, oh, my God. And then especially compared to my really. sad income at the time. I actually panicked and I like deleted my mint.com account

and I was like, I can't deal with this right now. Like let's just delete this. And so that was like denial 101. I just completely deleted my mint dot com account and I was like I literally cannot handle this right now. And so I continue to live in denial for a couple of months.

And like anyone in denial, reality catches up with you eventually. And it wasn't until December 2011, you know, six months after graduation where my student loans had, you know, the grace period was coming to an end. And I still hadn't secured a full-time job. And I was like, okay, I literally can't afford to pay rent and student loans in New York. I have to make a choice. And when you're forced to decide where you're going to live because of your student loans, when student loans start affecting big choices in your life,

like where you should live, whether you should get married or not, whether you should have kids or not, that forces you out of denial real quick. So I would say, you know, that was kind of the turning point for me out of denial. It was like, oh, man, like I had wanted to stay in New York. I wanted to live like a fabulous, artistic, cool lifestyle in New York. And I just couldn't swing it. So I sobered up real quickly and I was like, oh, this hurts. So I love that.

So you kind of, the reality catches up with you. Do you reopen your mint.com account and stare reality back? in the face? Or what is facing reality look like for you? I didn't right away because there were too many changes going on. So like the first step was like actually moving to Portland, Oregon and then actually trying to find a job. And, you know, I just remember those first couple of months in Portland where we're pretty brutal, you know, getting this temp work. And actually for a brief period, I was on food stamps, which was also not fun. And so yeah, just like the first couple of months

are really just about surviving and like adjusting to this new reality. And it, probably wasn't until like later in 2012 when I had discovered personal finance blogs and then like January 2013 when I started Deer Deer Debt where I was like, okay, I'm committing to paying off this debt. I've started this blog. I've said no matter what I'm going to pay this off because I have no choice. Did I start to get it together again? Sorry. So what year was that I just missed out in the last January 2013. I started my blog, Dear Deer Deer Debt. So it took like another full basically a year of me just wallowing in my own misery and like feeling stuck and feeling like hitting my head against a wall. Like I don't know what to do. I feel stuck and trapped and anxious. And just to that point, I think

it's so important that we do talk about the mental health issues because I really believe that the reason I couldn't really do anything in 2012 to move things much forward was because I felt so much shame and depression and anxiety. And it's like, you know, there's so many great blog posts about here's how to pay off debt. Here's the debt snowball and the debt avalan. And it's. And it's like, you know, and X, Y, and Z, but if people aren't prepared emotionally or mentally to even look at their debt or address it, they're not going to be able to take action. Because I know personally, depression and anxiety can be completely paralyzing. Paralyzing. And so if you're paralyzed, you're not going to take action. So that's why I'm so passionate about this topic, because I really

feel like we have to address the underlying issues that prevent people from actually looking at their debt and taking action because we all know that the tips are out there on how to actually pay off debt. They're there. But why do we not do it? It's because of the behavioral mindset issues. Okay, so let's talk about the mindset issues. Let's talk about, you know, these first steps in addressing the underlying issues. Where does someone start? Let's say we've got someone listening to this show right now. They are in Melanie 2012 mode where they're just feeling so much shame and so much guilt and, you know, what I want to say to them is you are not alone. You are not the only person who has debt. So hop on Melanie's site and read her letters to her debt. And, you know,

hear other stories of people that are in the same place, even if it won't change the amount of debt you have, but knowing that you're not the only one who has debt, especially when you're with friends who are like, I have so much money and I can just go out to dinner and not look at prices. And like, that gets really shameful. And that's not the right word because, you know, it isn't something to be ashamed of. Yeah, you have debt. What is it like less than 1% of Americans can afford a $1,000 emergency bill? Like they don't have any savings.

I can't remember what the number is. But it's super, super low. Yeah. I think only, I think only 40% of people can cover a $400 emergency in cash without going into credit card debt. And I know 44 million people have student loans. So it's like you're definitely. not alone at all. And really, if you look at the way this country is set up, debt is like

our favorite national pastime, really. So getting out of debt is like breaking the status quo in a way. So we really do not need to internalize all of this stuff so much, in my opinion. So you were saying what are some actionable steps that people can take if they were 2012 me? So what 2012 me did initially was I needed to get to counseling because this was significantly impacting. my life. And so I've been in and out of therapy my whole life for various reasons, but this was definitely a situational circumstance like, okay, my debt is really is what is prompting me to be in a situation. And so they always say, you know, counseling's a good idea if something is really impacting your day to day life. And this was like, you know, not like, oh, I'm sad for two weeks

or like, oh, I'm crying here. It was like every day for months sort of thing. And so I was like, I need help. But one of the worst things about being in debt. and being depressed over your debt as you're like, well, how the heck can I afford therapy when I can barely afford my debt? And so actually, I was so grateful to find a coworker of mine who had said that he found some affordable counseling through the local graduate school. So Portland State University, you know, they have a graduate counseling program. And so these are pretty much counselors in training who were like one semester away from graduating who, you know, they needed their kind of training hours before they got their license, right? And so they had like their professor,

I guess, kind of like behind some room watching that I didn't know about. So it can be like a little weird, but if you can get over that, the sessions were $15 a session. And because I was on food stance at the time, I negotiated it down to $5 a session. So I was paying like $20 a month for therapy. So yeah, I highly recommend local graduate schools because it's a win-win situation for everyone. The students need their training hours. You get someone to talk to. It's usually, you know, significantly more affordable. I also have found my current therapist through openpath collective.org. Not as cheap, but more affordable. I think they have sessions between $30 and $80 a session, which I know that might not be cheap to some people, but compared to out of pocket, which can easily be

between like $150 and $300 a session. It's definitely a lot better. So I... Let's say that name again because I didn't type that down and I want to make sure we get that in the show notes for this show. Yes. Openpathcollective.org. I found my current therapist through there and she's wonderful and it's been great. And then also I highly recommend the crisis text line, which you can text home to 741, 741. And I really like the crisis text line because it's pretty open ended with the word crisis, aka you don't have to be suicidal. I know there are a lot of wonderful suicide resources out there. So if you are feeling suicidal, there's the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, which is 1-800-273-8-255.

If you are feeling suicidal, I highly recommend talking to them. But then there's also people who are like, I feel like I'm in crisis. I'm not exactly suicidal. Who can I talk to? The crisis text line is a wonderful resource. You can text them at 741-741. And everything's over-text, which I think is wonderful, because sometimes if you're in an emotional state or you're not feeling well,

sometimes it's really hard to even get the words out, right? So if you do it over tax, it's wonderful. And they have certified crisis tax counselors to respond to you and kind of help you calm down and provide resources and understanding. And I know for people who have either maybe never have gone to these resources before, wonder like, well, what are they going to do for me? Because I totally understand when you're in that skeptical state, like, well, what are they going to do for me?

And what I always say is like when I talk to my therapist or anyone that's a professional, they can really help you see a different way that you can't see with your own eyes. So we're all programmed and conditioned to think a certain way, to behave a certain way, given our friends, our family, the way we were raised. And that's just the way we're programmed. And in some ways it can feel like we're kind of in a coldest act of like, I'm like a broken record. this is the only thing I can see or do. And then my therapist sometimes will say certain things and I'm like, wow, literally I would have never thought about that. Like the way my brain is programmed, I just would have never thought about that. And so I think these resources can really provide some outside perspective that you probably can't see. And it's not anything against you. It's just, you know, sometimes when we're so in it, when we're so close to the issue and when we're so like stuck, we just can't even think clearly. And so to have a lot of

someone from the outside kind of help us see, hey, you know, you're not in a cul-de-sac. Actually, there's this route, there's this route, there's this route. And then also you can make a U-turn, you know, there's a lot of different options, right? How did this manifest itself in your story? Like, did this therapy kind of help you arrive at, hey, I'm going to attack this head-on, form blog, and go after it in starting in January 2013? So I would say the counseling in 2012 really kind of helped manage. my day-to-day symptoms of crazy anxiety and a lot of crying. So it kind of helped me, like,

remember that I'm not an awful person, that, you know, I didn't just ruin my life by going to grad school and kind of helped manage those day-to-day emotions. And it wasn't really until I found personal finance blogs in the end of 2012. Did I really kind of get the financial portion of the inspiration to pay off debt? But like I said, kind of before, I feel like if I hadn't done that mental work of 2012 that I might not have been ready to tackle the financial part, but because I had kind of, quote, done the work in therapy, you know, the mental portion, I feel like at that time when I discovered personal finance blogs, I was ready to take action. And I had it internalized so much shame and guilt and depression and anxiety.

And I felt ready to take action finally. Got it. So what was your first bit of action? Yeah. My first bit of action was really, I mean, starting the blog. and writing that first post. And it's really funny because you can go to my blog now. And the first post is still there.

I had this awkward anonymous photo of me. I think I had like $57,000 left at that point. So I had like depleted some of my savings to pay down some of that debt. And like a really dramatic, silly first post. But you can also like read the pain in it too. And like I don't go back and edit it because it's like, a history archive to me now. And I think it's so funny and interesting. And I also want people to go back and be like, okay, yeah, you see that I have this like polished career now and that I've paid off my debt.

But go back to my first post in January 2013. You can read that and be like, wow, this girl's like going through something. And her debt is like eating her alive. And so really just committing to that first post and like writing it to the internet, even though like I literally had one reader at that point, my mom. You know, I think just like having that public accountability was really important to me. And then also I think, and I say that that was important for me because I realized just me as a person doing anything, having that kind of outside accountability is really important to me. I wish I was one of these types of people that just had like endless internal motivation, but I'm absolutely not. I'm as Gretchen Rubin would call it very much an obliger, meaning I like get a lot of motivation by having kind of external people. keep me accountable for things. So the blog for me really was that. And so I would ask yourself, like, what do I need to be motivated? Is that an external person to keep me motivated? Do I have endless internal amounts of motivation that I could just do this on my own? Like, what will keep you motivated? And for me, it was having a community of people, having that blog, writing updates every

single month, towards my debt. And then really it was just about, you know, figuring out how can I cut back in every single way. And I mean, I'm already a minimalist. I already didn't have a lot of stuff. So for me, frugality, you know, was already kind of like a natural instinct. And I didn't really have much to cut back from. And so I think a lot of people in a personal finance journey kind of realize this where, you know, yeah, cutting back on coffees and going out and XYZ is really important. But for people like me who never really had a lot to begin with, never really spent a lot of money anyways, like I couldn't cut back anymore. And so I realized that, literally my only option is to earn more, which is where side hustling came in,

which is where later becoming self-employed really changed my life because I was able to double my income once I went from nonprofit sector to self-employment, and that really helped me pay off my debt. And so, you know, for me, earning more significantly helped me pay off debt far more than frugality ever did. And like I said, that's not to say that frugality doesn't have its own virtues, but that was already kind of like a second nature to me. It wasn't really something that significantly impacted my life. Okay, that's interesting because, you know, usually when you hear somebody's story, oh, I'm in a lot of debt, they have something to cut. Yeah. I was listening to Dave Ramsey one time and he said, he's talking to this person on the phone. He's like, you know what? I'm going

to take you off the air and we're going to go talk separately because you don't have anything else to cut. Because he, you know, when he talks to people, it's like, oh, you can cut this and this and this and this. And he's like, I don't see anything else you can cut. Right. That's like, wow. And you have to earn more. And that literally is the only thing. You can cut or you can grow.

And yeah, when there's nothing else to cut, now it's time to grow. So let's go back to, you know, you did this blog post and you said, you know, all of a sudden you started hearing from people. Let's go to the first person to reach out to you to say, hey, I'm going through this too. How did that feel and how did you like get through that, that portion? Yeah. So I think I think we're kind of alluding to maybe two different things and I'll all reference both of them. So like pretty early on I had kind of got comments from people saying like I'm going through the same thing.

I'm really depressed about my student loans. I'm so glad you're talking about this. But then on a more serious note, probably like a year into blogging I had seen in my Google analytics that someone had Googled, I want to kill myself because of debt. And that just completely stopped me in my tracks. And I was just so completely bold over with, you know, the fact that someone was Googling that and finding my blog. And so once I kind of felt that, I was like, whoa,

this mental health debt depression thing is really taken on a life of its own here. And from that search term, I wrote a blog post as if I were talking to that person because it upset me so much. And that was kind of another impetus. to a whole different journey for my blog, because I wrote that one blog post as if I were talking to that person and said, like, I don't know who you are.

I don't know what prompted you to write this, but please don't do it. It's not worth it. Dad is not a death sentence. And, you know, I published that blog post not really thinking much about it, but because I had talked once again about suicide and debt and depression,

then sure enough, I kept ranking for that search term. And I hate to say it, but it's been five years. and that is still probably my highest ranked search time is I want to kill myself because of debt or some kind of variation of that. And I've become kind of this accidental hub of suicidal people who reach out to me. And I get emails every single week from people who are suicidal over their debt. And I answer every single email. And it's so wild because some of the emails I get, you could just tell that people well, I get a lot of people think like, oh, I didn't think you were real or I didn't think you were going to respond.

And like, yes, I'm real and yes, I'm going to respond because you're clearly reaching out. Like, to me, if someone is Googling, I want to kill myself because of Jet, and they find my blog and they take the time to send me an email, that is a call for help. That's a cry for help. I don't know if I can save their lives. I don't know what's going to happen after I email them. I don't know if I have any of the answers. but what I do know is that when you are that depressed, that just having someone that can listen to you without judgment is so important.

And I feel like I try to tell that to other bloggers and podcasters and people who have the capacity to engage with readers in this way is that the greatest gift that we can give someone is the ability to truly make them feel heard and seen. And a lot of these people feel pushed to the wayside that they're losers, they're ruining their families, they're ruining their lives. It's all their fault. And it's so sad because I get a lot of people who are like, oh, my wife has no idea we're in this debt or like, I don't know how I'm

going to pay for my child to eat next month. And it's so devastating. And I don't want anyone to end their lives because of debt. I mean, people shouldn't end their lives over any reason, but especially not debt. And so that's been kind of my crusade for the past four or five years. And then, four years ago, I started the suicide prevention blog tour where I got my personal finance blogger friends together every September, which is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month, to write about this topic. And so this is the fourth year we're going into it. And I have a whole suicide prevention tab on my blog, Deer Debt, which has the previous blog post from all the other tours. It has all the resources for the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, for the Crisis Text Line. And you can read so many people's

stories. And what has been wild about doing the blog tour, is that I can see that so many people have said, I've gone through something similar, or my neighbor died by suicide, and people had said it was because of debt too, or people come out of the woodwork to share your story, and it just goes to show that we think that we're suffering alone with these issues, then if one person is brave enough to share their story,

you can just so many people come out and feel comfortable sharing theirs as well. And so I try to be a resource for people and say that you're not alone, and that debt is not a death sentence and that I'm here to listen and that this is definitely not something you should do and always trying to build up other resources to help these people. And I definitely feel like I have some of the mental health resources, you know, from the financial portion, maybe they can talk to a nonprofit credit counselor. Obviously, I can't necessarily recommend bankruptcy because I'm not a financial professional, but obviously that's something to consider aside from dying by suicide.

You know, there are other options. And I feel like, you know, we should definitely be supporting this community of people who are suffering. I mean, I think that this is, like, very powerful. And it's like something that someone who did not have a lot of student loan debt, it's kind of, I'm trying to like learn from you and how to like put myself in the shoes of folks that have that, where it, how overwhelming and dire that can seem in terms of your overall life outlook. I'm wondering, and I think it's just great work, I'm wondering, once you find someone who's maybe got student loan debt or whatever, do you also kind of do any of the actionable tips to kind of help them through at least situations that were similar to yours? Or is that, like you said, is that all outsourced to some of the other professionals that can help with that, the planners? If it's someone with student loan debt, I will definitely impart kind of what I went through and what I did. So, you know, definitely tell them about, you know, income-driven repayment plans if they're really truly struggling. I think a lot of people don't know about income-driven repayment for federal student loans. And I think that's a really important option because from a loan servicer standpoint and from a

borrower standpoint, there's many more people that immediately go into delinquency and default when they would technically qualify for a zero-dollar repayment under income-driven repayment. And so I read a lot about student loans and credit these days, so I have some extra knowledge about this. But if your income is truly like at the poverty level, you can't, you technically have a $0 repayment under income-driven repayment and be, quote, in good standing, right? And every year you recertify your income. So obviously as your income goes up, then you'll start paying again. But if income is truly the issue on your federal student loans, I really implore people to go on an income-driven repayment plan. Even though I said earlier, that was not

the right plan for me because I was scared of interest, I did know if things got really, really, truly bad, I could have gone on that plan and had a zero dollar repayment and I still would have been able to eat and pay my rent. So that's definitely a resource I'd like to share with people. And then, you know, it's tough when I get people who have credit card debt, which is something I've never dealt with. I feel like the most difficult situations I deal with are people that are not in this country. Because obviously I know in America, if you're in debt, you're not going to go to jail. I don't think the mafia is going to come after you. You know, you might get wage garnishment with your student loans or your tax refund,

but I get people from India or Africa or Malaysia email me. And I don't know, they're in some kind of weird loan shark debt situation where it sounds like their lives might be in danger because of other people. And that's really difficult for me to handle because I obviously don't know what the solutions are there. And obviously I don't know the laws about debt in other countries, especially if it may or may not be through an official kind of financial institution. So I would say those are probably the most difficult situations for me to deal with because I just, I don't have the answers. But I still try to be

a support and a listening ear for people. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going. And more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone

or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring,

Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results.

And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a 75. dollar sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Just go to indeed.com slash bigger pockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash bigger pockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring,

Indeed is all you need. When you want more, start your business with Northwest registered agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the U.S. with over 1,500 corporate guides, who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business.

They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data and all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit northwest registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. Okay, before we get back to your story, I want to just give some URLs and some links to some of these things that we've been talking about. You said that you have a suicide prevention blog tour that goes on every September.

What is the link that people can find that on your website? People can go to deer.com forward slash suicide hyphen prevention. There they will find all the resources that I typically include as part of that blog tour, which has some of the resources I've mentioned here today, like openpathcollective.org, the crisis text line, the national suicide prevention hotline, talking to someone from the national, the nonprofit foundation for credit counseling, and as well as all of the blog posts. And yeah, I definitely recommend people go there if they're looking for resources, both financial or mental health. Okay, perfect. And we will include all of these links in

the show notes for this episode, which can be found at www.biggerpockets.com slash money show 91. All right. And before we kind of move into the famous fora, I was hoping we could finish out some of your story and hear about how you, personally managed to pay off your student loans. Yes, good question. So I know I had kind of talked about how I had really hit the cutting back threshold pretty quickly in my debt repayment journey where I was like, okay, I cut a few things out, but I really hit the plateau of like, okay, unless I starve myself or move back in with my parents,

there's nothing for me to cut back on. And so I realized that earning more was really kind of the only way that I could truly make the progress that I wanted on my debt repayment. So I was making $10 to $12 an hour, literally for the first year and a half I was in Portland. And then I finally found the nonprofit job literally two years after graduation in May 2013 as a nonprofit events and communications coordinator, which is quite funny because now I'm doing mostly events and communications on my own. But I got that job in May 2013, making $31,000, which is $30,000 an amazing amount of money. was a significant increase from $16,000 to $20,000, which is what I was making the previous two years. And at the time, my rent was $400.

I split a studio apartment with my then partner. And I did not have a car. I did not have health insurance. This was pre-affordable care act, so there was no penalty. And then, you know, I literally walked and biked everywhere, and I didn't really go out. And so my expenses were pretty minimal. And I didn't have any pets, which I really wanted a pet. And so like I said, my expenses were pretty minimal.

I was very lucky to live in Portland and share a studio for $400. And so then increasing my income to $31,000, I was like, okay, I'm doubling down on my repayment now that I'm making more money. And then kind of right at the height of all of my side hustles with my blog, I realized that all of these other people in the blogosphere were also getting side hustles as a freelance writer. And I thought, wait, people are getting paid to write? and I thought, I have a pretty useless master's degree,

but if I learned one thing as part of my master's, that was to write. And so I thought I would love to not be working here, there, and everywhere all over Portland, Oregon, especially when I don't have a car and it rains nine months out of the year. I would love to just be in the comfort of my own home doing side hustles.

And so I started pitching other blogs about writing. And I got my first writing gig. And then to make a long story short, a year after I got that nonprofit job, I was making about the same amount of money side hustling as I was at my day job. And so I was making pretty like a lot more money than I ever had. And so that was obviously helping my repayment. I was putting more money towards debt than ever. And then I thought, if I'm making the same amount of money on the side as I am as my day job, if I free up these eight hours per day, I'm sure I'm going to make more money. And that was a really

difficult decision to leave my job because I had waited two years to find stable employment with benefits. And it's like, I still had $40,000 in debt at that time. And it's like, are you nuts to quit this job that you've waited so long to get? And I just knew that I was going to make more money if I quit. And sure enough, I did. So I quit to essentially do events and communications. How did you quit? I quit my nonprofit job as an events communications coordinator, pretty much to be an events and communications coordinator for myself. This was July 2014. So July 2014, I quit that nonprofit job, and I worked as a freelance writer, and I also did events with financial brands.

So I have a colleague, Tanya Rapley and I from My Fab Finance, we've done some other events with brands and bloggers. And I had mostly been writing for other financial blogs or banks or fintech companies. And so that first year, I was able to double my income from 30,000 to 6,000 to 6 years. thousand. And to be able to double your income and still keep your rent at $400, you know, I was able to increase my payments to $3,000 a month, which is insane. But like I said, my rent was $400. I did not have a car. I did not have health insurance. So those are kind of like the main expenses that a lot of people have. And so doubling my income just changed my life. And, you know, a lot of people talk about the risks of self-employment, and I definitely don't want to underplay that. But for someone like me,

who literally I had only worked in nonprofits before that, and my highest salary up to date at that point was $38,000, like the most I'd ever made in my entire life was $38,000, and to suddenly be making $60 because of self-employment. Like, self-employment single-handedly helped me get out of the low nonprofit pay trap and really opened up a lot of doors for me. And so, that first year, I made $60,000. I think the second year I made $80,000, and it was that second year, 2015. By December 2015, I had paid off all of my debt. And, you know, it was so great because I had started my blog in January 2013, and I was making, I think, $12 an hour at the time.

And I said, I'm going to pay off this debt in four years. I don't know how because given my current reality, there's no way this is possible, but somehow it's going to happen. And I was actually able to pay it off in three from when I started my blog. The whole journey really was off and on for nine years, and I paid off the majority of the $68,000 in four and a half years. So, you know, there's a lot of different timelines going on here at the same time. And this is outstanding, remarkable hustle and work ethic.

And the fact that you're spending so little and just continuing to stay disciplined on that while you attack your loans is just outstanding. One question I have is, how many hours would you say you were putting in a given work week between your day job and your side hustling? while you were getting your side hustle, this income stream that kind of propelled you out of student loans off the ground. Yeah, I can tell you very clearly. So I would wake up and work from 6 a.m. to about 8.30. And then I would leave at 8.30 and I would work from 9 to 5.5. I would come home to 5.30. I would have dinner and from 6 to midnight be working again.

And I did that during the work week. And then I did a lot of brand ambassador work on the weekends. that's where a lot of the concerts and the sporting events happen. And being a brand ambassador was my main side hustle over the years. And so those had differing hours. Sometimes it would be four hours on a Saturday or 12 hours on a Saturday or a couple hours here and there. And I literally worked seven days a week probably for close to five years.

And it was incredibly daunting and difficult. I don't necessarily recommend it because it definitely did take a toll on my mental and physical health. obviously I'm very happy to be on this side of the spectrum now where I'm debt-free and I can enjoy all of the fruits of my labor and have been debt-free ever since. And it's been great. I just want to dive into this because I think it's so critical to understand is you just don't go from making $30,000 to $60,000 a year without, I think some sort of slog like like what you just described there.

I mean, every single person who has a story in some capacity, where their income made a dramatic change like yours did, has gone through this on our show so far. I can't think of a single example of someone who made a similar percentage increase without this kind of slog going through. And how did you feel during that, I guess, that period? I felt exhausted all of the time.

It was exciting because to go from a place where you're on food stamps making $10 to $12 an hour and you feel like you're not getting paid what you're worth and you feel like you made a bunch of mistakes to finally being able to make money, that part felt really great and exciting. But it's also exhausting because we're human beings and we're only, you know, have a finite amount of energy and time. And so, you know, I definitely felt myself getting more clumsy, more tired,

sometimes having like a shorter fuse because I was so tired and definitely impacted my relationship at the time. You know, it was tough because he was not paying off debt like I was. and it's like, I don't have much time for you. But yeah, it was difficult. So, you know, definitely can have an impact on so many different facets of your life. But it's really about taking risks and knowing that something is going to suffer. Like, you can never put in that much energy.

Like, as you said, you can't make that much of an increase with your income without some part of your life getting sacrificed. It's just no way. You know, I really like that you. didn't just sit back and, you know, oh, whatever. And it reminds me of a couple of people that we've interviewed previously on this show. Patrice Washington was on episode 50. And you know, Patrice, she's fabulous. The part of her story that I just, it sinks into my head so much and I'm so impressed by is her husband, Gerald, was a real estate broker making like a million dollars a year,

lost everything in the housing crash of 2008, and then said, well, I've got to put food on the table. I'm going to go work at Taco Bell. And he did, working at Taco Bell is not a glamorous job, despite what Paula Pant from afford anything has said. It isn't, you know, working in food service, you come home smelling like the food that you're making all day long. But he did it because that's what you do.

You pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you slog through it. And it's not a lot of fun, but you've got to eat. And so that's a really great episode to, listen to when you're looking for another, you know, I'm looking for somebody who's going through this too. Patrice Washington, episode 50, can be found at biggerpockets.com slash money show 50. And Nick Loper from Side Hustle Nation shared a bunch of different side hustles with us on episode 28. And maybe what Melanie is saying in that she became a freelance writer isn't something that you want to do or feel comfortable doing. Nick has, what, 150 or 500 episodes?

of different side hustles on his podcast, and he has a website, is it sidehustle.com or sidelustledation.com? I think it's side hustle nation. Yes. So there is a side hustle for you. You will read through all of these and say, nope, nope, nope, nope, yes, I can do that. That would be my thing. There is somebody who will pay you to do something that you are good at, you feel comfortable

with, can do on the side and can still make money to throw at your debt. So I just wanted to get those out there before we move on. And I'd also just recommend people try different side hustles too, like whether you think you can do them or not, because there's no better way to learn things on the job than a side hustle. Like I didn't know what I was doing as a brand ambassador at first. And I was like, oh, it's just talking to people. I can talk to people.

I'm an extrovert. Freelance writing, I mean, I had some writing skills. But yeah, it's not like a real job where you need to have a formal resume in 10 years of an experience, you know, side hustles. you can just kind of figure out in the job. If it doesn't work out, then not going to be the end of your life. So just use it as a time to learn more things and try different things out. One last question before, Famous Four here. What did you kind of do once you paid off your student loan debt in terms of managing your money? How did you begin investing or accumulating wealth?

Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely had a plan for what I was going to do with all of those four-figure payments once I was debt-free. And so it was really about building my emergency fund back up, starting to actually invest. I do think, made a mistake. I hadn't really fully invested until I was debt free, which I paid off my debt when I was 31, so I was already quite behind. So that's, you know, I don't necessarily recommend that for other people, but really it's just been playing catch up with my, you know, savings and investments and kind of rerouting that money towards those things. And also what had kept me going when I was paying off that debt and so miserable was creating this debt-free dream list.

So like when I was like, oh my God, I have so much debt fatigue, I've been paying this for years, and years and years, like, what am I doing? I just kept thinking of what's my life going to look like once I pay off my debt. Like, I did not like living in Portland, Oregon. It does rain nine months out of the year, and that had a significant impact on my mental health. I didn't like the city very much. But I knew it was going to be way more affordable than moving back to L.A., which is where I'm from and where I wanted to be.

And so I made a conscious choice to stay there. So on my debt-free dream list, I was like, I'm going to move back to L.A. I'm going to get cats. I'm going to take my mom to Italy. and I'm so happy to say that I've been able to do all those things since paying off my debt. And I have so much more appreciation to be in this one-bedroom apartment now in L.A. that I can afford easily on my own. I have my two baby kitties, Miles and Philonius, who I love so much.

And I took my mom to Italy and that was her first time going to Europe. And so to be able to have those things that I kept in my mind, like, this is what my life is going to look like when I pay off debt, and be like, this is the carrot that's driving me, that's keeping me motivated. and then to accomplish those things and just have so much appreciation. You know, that's been so great. So all of that to say, like, yes,

I have continued to save and invest and been, quote, catching up, so to speak, you know, from paying off all that debt, but I've also used it to enhance my quality of life significantly. And that's been, you know, just been the best part of it. That's awesome. I love everything about that. I love that.

Here's what my life's going to look like. Here's the carrot for this. I'm going, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. And now you've realized it and are enjoying. all of that. It's so great. I love it. That's great. That is fantastic. Okay, so this is Melanie Lockhart from the Dear Debt blog. We've got all these links to your suicide prevention blog tour, the suicide prevention hotlines and all of those things will keep in our show notes. Again, you can find those at biggerpockets.com slash money show 91. Okay, Melanie, it is now that time

of the show the famous four. These are the same four questions and one command that we ask of all of our guests. Are you ready? Okay, yes. What is your favorite finance book? Get Money by Kristen Wong. Oh, that's a new one. Get Money by Kristen Wong. Okay, why do you like that book? She's just so funny and it's so direct and it's just, it's a very actionable book to kind of get your finances together in a lot of different ways. And it's totally not boring. All right. I'll have to check it out. What was your biggest money mistake? And this might be, I'm interested to see what you say in this I would say my biggest money mistake. Well, actually I have two of them. I'm just kind of like, two of them. Number one, I did not save for retirement when I was paying off debt. And so,

you know, I paid off my debt at 31 and I'm behind. Number two, because I was in the nonprofit sector for so long, I had never asked for a raise because I just had told myself that nonprofits have no money. And so why would I even ask? So those are two pretty costly mistakes. Don't pull me. No, I think those are great mistakes. And I think that it's also very interesting that you did not, that you said, like we discussed earlier in the show, hey, it wasn't even the student loans. And it was not saving for retirement while paying off debt and not asking for a raise, which I think are very controllable things after you got serious about this stuff.

You know, the best saving for retirement while paying off debt story that I have heard is from Craig Curlop. He was on episode 35. He works here at Bigger Pockets. He came out of school with, what, $85,000 in student loans? And he paid the minimum on every single one while he got a little bit of work experience. He came and started working for us. He learned house hacking where he bought a duplex and rented out one unit and lived in the other.

And then while he was living in the other, he would rent out the bedroom and sleep on the couch so that he could generate all this cash. He lived there for a year, jumped into the next duplex. And now I think he has. Does he have two, no, that's you, Scott. He has three properties now. He does, but one, so one duplex, the next property he bought was a five bedroom, two bathhouse, which is a weird configuration. If you have that many bedrooms, you need more bathrooms.

So, well, but it sat on the market for a while. He was able to get a good deal. He lived in, this was located in a city that didn't have occupancy limits. So he lived in one bedroom and rented out the four, so five unrelated adults, but that's okay in that city. And so he made a lot of money during that as well. And didn't he pay off all of his debt in like one big check after he had these three properties that he was renting out? And his story is just really, really interesting.

And before I heard his story, I would have been on your page, Melanie, you don't save for retirement. You pay off all your debt. And then you can start saving for retirement. And he framed it in a different way and was able to generate enough money that he can live off of. And now his whole salary goes to his debt. And it was just a different way to look at it. And I really enjoyed that story. So that was episode 35 of the Money Podcast.

Love that. Yeah, that was a really great, interesting story. Okay, so what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? And that's kind of like ambiguous. Are they starting out on their debt repayment journey? Are they starting out in like life in general before they even get to college? What do you go? I'm going to assume that they're in debt like me for watching or listening to this episode.

And so I would say the very first step, that you have to do is to get out of denial and know your numbers. So really go to the national student loan data system and really look at how much debt you owe. Go to annual credit report.com, see how much credit card debt you have. Really line up every single loan amount that you have as well as the interest rate and write it all down. It's not fun. It could be probably the most difficult part of this debt repayment journey to see the numbers in black and white, but it's really important that you actually know how much you owe. And then also, calculate how much you're spending daily on interest because that could really light a fire under you

to be like, oh my gosh, this is just how much I'm throwing away every single day. So I would say those two things. That is great advice. Mindy, how many times have we asked this question? And what percentage would you say it's some variant of know your numbers, map your financial position, track your spending? Yeah, I'm going to go at least 50 or 75% of the people who, who do this say, you know, track your spending is a huge one. Know your numbers. Whatever your numbers are, know them because if you can't change, like with the debt, that's not going to change just because you're not looking at it. Your spending isn't going to suddenly get better unless you're looking at it. Know your numbers. Know what you can do to change those numbers. Totally. I think it's just so

telling. And it's like, if you're listening to the show and you've made it through 91 episodes and you haven't tracked your spending or mapped out your financial position, it's time to do that because you're not going to make that much time without knowing your numbers. Yeah. All right. What is your favorite joke to tell at parties? I don't know if I have an answer to that. I feel like I'm definitely the type of person that makes a joke kind of depending on the actual

conversation. Does that make sense? Like I'm not a big like, here's a joke out of my pocket sort of person. I'm definitely more the type of person like in a natural conversation. I'll say something silly or stupid. What about some cat jokes? You said you finally got your two cats, right? I have a really incredibly bad cat joke.

That's like... Oh, good. Scott excels and incredibly bad jokes. Where do cats go on vacation? I don't know where. Miaoie. Told you it's so bad. It's so bad.

I never laugh at these. That's great. There's a cat channel at work. I'm going to put that in our in office chat. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Okay.

Melanie, tell me where people can find out more about you. People can find me at Deerdebt.com as well as at Melanie Lockhart on Twitter, at Melanie Lockhart on Instagram. And also I have a Women and Money Retreat. They can find me at LolaRit.com. That's awesome. I think the Lola Retreat is always scheduled for a weekend that I am already doing something, but I need to get out to the Lola Retreat because I have heard so many good things about it. Yay, yes, you do. Talking to women who are in the same position as you about finances is I don't want to,

Scott's wonderful. I'm not talking smack about Scott, but there are some men who are like, oh, just do it or don't wear your pretty little head about it or whatever. And it's really powerful to hear from other people who are exactly like you, which is, hey, kind of just like your debt. Yes, exactly. Oh, wow, this was amazing. Oh, my goodness. I don't know where I came across your name. I'm like, I got to have Melanie on the show

because it is September and I always, I've never actually participated, but as you're sitting here talking to me, I'm like, oh my God, I have to write a blog post now for 1,500 days to put up to, you know, be on the suicide prevention tour. I'm just the tips I'm getting, you know, I am going to link to the show, but I'm also going to link to you and like all the other people, just the tips that I'm getting like get a debt counselor, get a like a therapist. I don't know what the right way to phrase it is like a mental therapist, not a financial therapist too, by the way. They do invest. I have resources. Do you really? That'd be great. Get a financial therapist, but also get somebody to help you like like a psychiatrist or a therapist or something. And you know, here's the thing. It's not something. to be ashamed of, but so many people are ashamed of it. You don't have to wear a t-shirt that says,

hey, I see a therapist every Tuesday. And it means you're being proactive, too. I don't even know why there's a stigma, to be honest, because it means like, oh, you're judging me for actually taking care of, okay. Yeah. Oh, I have a broken arm. I better not do anything about that because that's embarrassing. Whatever, it gets fixed and you move on. I got a question here, which I'm not sure how to, do you think it's different for men versus women? For therapy and medication? With therapy. I do think there is a difference.

And I only think that because of toxic masculinity and the way we condition men in our culture, I think men are so conditioned to not talk about their feelings that it can be kind of a lot to kind of uncrack that egg, so to speak, in therapy. I think, I think men especially should go to therapy because, well, first of all, just to go back to what I just said. I think everyone should be in therapy regardless of where they're at, because I think there's, A, this belief that you should only go to therapy if you're, like, struggling or if you're dealing with stuff. And honestly, you should go for preventative maintenance, whether you're going through something or not, number one. And number two, everybody needs a third party

to speak to because the thing is, like, we can all talk to our friends and family about our issues, but they're all going to be biased. And so, like, for me, it's great to have a third party perspective where she doesn't have an investment in my life. Like, she's not going to be biased or be like, oh, well, I don't want to hurt Melanie's feelings. Or this is what I think is best for Melanie because she's my best friend. Like, she's going to be like, like, my therapist calls me out on my stuff.

And at first I didn't like her because I was like, I think I need a little bit of sugar in my coffee. Like, you're a little, you're a lot. But actually, I was like, no, she's actually the type of person I need. She calls me out and like, it's like, yeah, this is, you know. And so I think we all need someone that can call us out on our stuff, but without like hurting our feelings and give us a third-party perspective. And so to that end, I think men who maybe don't have the same kind of support systems as

women do, or at least as comfortably, it's great. And the men that I have talked to who are in therapy seems so much more in touch and emotionally aware than other men. No, that toxic masculinity thing, that's really great. And we did, you know, I as a woman, and I'm talking to a woman, I listen to this. as more for women. But you're absolutely right, that toxic masculinity thing.

Well, here's the thing. It hurts men and women because it hurts men, because men, I mean, I'm totally hypergeneralizing here, by the way. In general, men don't have the same kind of friendship networks that women do where they can just talk about anything and everything. I think there's a lot of expectations that they need to be strong, that they should not have feelings, that they should not be emotional. And bottling all of that up, in my opinion,

is what leads to some of the violence and the outbursts and the misogyny that we deal with. And so it literally hurts them, but it also hurts women. So it's like if we can create a culture where it's okay for men to talk about their feelings and get help, I think it'll be significantly better for men on their own to help themselves and then also with their relationships with women. It's a women situation. It really is. I mean, Scott, it's okay to have feelings.

It's okay to be unhappy about something. or sad about something that happened, you know. I'm just always like this, though. I'm always like, I'm going to ask leading personal finance questions and then periodically go on a mild rant about a topic that I feel particularly strongly about when it comes to the next thing. And that's my state of being at all times. Yes, I think that Scott actually is a little more in touch with his,

not in touch with his feminine side so much as just. You nailed to yourself. That's exactly you. He's going to do what he wants to do. He's not going to let toxic masculinity affect the fact that he feels sad today. He's going to just feel sad today. And it's okay. He will embrace that.

So I'm just going to stop digging that hole. But just to kind of like bring it back and reframe it to both genders, I think both men and women can investigate the ways that we have been conditioned to be the way that we are and the way we respond to things. And is it like, am I really like this? Or was I just born in a culture and conditioned to be this? way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, for example, women are always, you know, kind of conditioned to be the prize of a man's affections or attention or wanting to be beautiful because it's a type of currency. Like, we're not born that way. That's the way we are conditioned. And so whenever these kind of

thoughts are like, oh, it's like, hmm, that's actually not the way I was born. This is some conditioning that I'm experiencing. That's a great way to wrap it up. Much, much more eloquent that I did. So thank you. That's why you're the guest and I'm not. Okay. From episode 91 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, I am Indy Jensen. He is Scott Trench and she is Melanie Lockhart. Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Melanie. Thank you for having me. We'll talk soon.