BiggerPockets Money Podcast - 96: Speaking Fluent Finance with Wilson Muscadin

Episode Date: October 28, 2019

Wilson Muscadin grew up knowing how to handle money. His father assigned him “book reports” rather than simply giving him an allowance. But the books he read were personal finance books, like Rich Dad, Poor Dad, The Millionaire Next Door and Think and Grow Rich. Unsurprisingly, Wilson learned a lot from reading these books. Well played, Dad Muscadin. Wilson handled his finances intelligently through high school and into college, where he saw so many friends making ridiculous mistakes with their money. Things like charging pizza and gas - and not paying off the credit card bill at the end of every month! He graduated with very little undergrad debt and worked in corporate insurance, but always wanted to teach people about finance. Back to school for an MBA at Duke - and more than $100,000 in student loan debt!!! Wilson’s path to teaching people how to fix their finances was cemented when a random Facebook post about paying off his student loan debt (4 months after his first son was born) garnered more comments and questions than the post about the birth of his child! Wilson paid off his debt, now has two sons, moved across the country and is dedicated to helping more people understand how money works, and break the cycle of paycheck-to-paycheck so they can become financially free. In This Episode We Cover: Wilson's journey with money Had an open discussion with his dad about money growing up  Money books he read The reason why he did not pursue as a financial advisor The importance of having a financial literacy The perfect environment on getting our kids to learn financial education What lifestyle changes did they make in order to save money and pay off their debt Got a lot of comments after he posted on Facebook that he paid off his student loan debt Focused on having a baby fund and 2 years expense fund after paying off their debt How he started doing financial coaching Mistakes that other people make with their finances The first thing he teach people to do with their finances And SO much more! Links: Blogger Net Worth Tracker - Rockstar Finance Directory My Fab Finance Mindy Jensen Scott Trench Connect with Wilson: The Money Speakeasy Facebook Instagram Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Bunny podcast show number 96 with Wilson Muscatin from the MoneySpeak Easy.com. For me, what I tell people, particularly parents, is the best thing that you can do for your kids in terms of personal finances is get your own finances under control. They will see your behavior and they will mirror your behavior more than they will mirror your words. It's time for a new American dream, one that doesn't involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by.

looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth creation. You're in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more. This is the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. How's it going, everybody? I'm Scott Trench. I'm here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? Scott, I'm having a great day. How are you doing today? I'm doing fantastic. I just had a great time chatting with Wilson here about money, life, and just making improvements with money accessible to everybody in this country. Yeah, I love a couple of things that he said just really, really resonated with me. He said, right at the end, he said, there is no formal education for any of this.

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Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP Money. Should we get to the show? Let's do it. Wilson Muscatan from the Money Speak Easy. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I'm so excited to have you today. I know we've been going back and forth for way too long to get you on this show, but it's finally coming through together. It is an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. So we're going to talk today about your payoff journey. How much money did you pay off? How much debt did you pay off? A little over $100,000 in student loans. Whoa. And how long did it take you to pay that off? Just under four years. cow. Okay, so let's get started. Where does your relationship with money begin? So I would say my relationship with money actually started really young with my father. Both my parents are immigrants from the Caribbean, but my father and I had very open discussions about money growing up. And in fact, my parents don't believe in giving you like allowance for doing chores. They're like,

I'm not going to pay you to do what you're supposed to do. So what he did instead was he had me write book reports. He'd assign me books and write book reports. for my allowance. And so it just so happened that many of those books were personal finance books, which is weird. I didn't realize it was weird till later, but I enjoyed it. And so we'd have those discussions earlier. And he also set a precedent. I remember, you know, those mailing tubes? Like if you wanted to put like a painting or a poster, like the tubes that you'd put them in, he kept a clear glass one and he put like change it every time that he came home. And I remember as like a little kid, he'd take me to the bank. Once he like filled it up, it took like six or eight months to fill up.

and then he'd take me to the bank and he would deposit it. And there'd be like, you know, $500. And like as a little kid, I'm like, oh, they're like, God, there's so much money in here. And so I just remember little things like that just growing up. And just I think that's where my money journey really started. And just in terms of those own conversations with that, just understanding. It wasn't until I got to college that I realized that was really weird. What were some of the money books that you read?

So I definitely like Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I remember reading Think and Grow Rich. there was books by Rick Edelman. Anything that my dad had on his drawer, what I realized was there were books that my dad definitely read that he wanted me to read, like, you know, how to win friends and influence people. I'm like a teenager reading that book.

It was like really weird. So there's books that he had read, but there's also books that he just didn't have time to read, and those are the ones that he wanted me to write book reports on. And so it was like I wrote his cliff notes for the book. That's amazing. I didn't realize that at the time, but like looking back on it,

And I was like, oh, okay, I get it. He just wanted the Cliff Notes version. I get it. So that's kind of how that happened. I love your dad. Yeah, he's pretty awesome. What was your father's profession? So he's a pediatrician.

Okay. So he's a really interesting guy. He's been my hero my whole life. But he came to the country and he passed his medical board exams in English. You can imagine. I didn't imagine that. So he's a pretty interesting guy. I'm sorry, English is his what language?

I think it's his fourth language. It might be a third or fourth language. So my parents were originally from Haiti. So he had spoken, his first language is French and then Haitian Creole. And then I'd imagine that he spoke Spanish before he spoke English. So I'm into the States as an adult and passing in your fourth language. I barely, I'm like kindergarten French. You know, a passing board exam in your fourth language is kind of,

he's a really interesting way. So what happened, you know, you read all these books and, you know, all that, what was kind of your relationship with money through, let's call it, high school and transitioning into college? Yeah, so it was a pretty controlled environment, right? So like I said, my dad and I had these money conversations for a while growing up, but when I got to college and most people that went to college before 2009, remember that table that was in front of the cafeteria where they were giving, you know, free hats and T-shirts for a credit card and whatnot.

And so that was the first time when I saw my friends getting credit cards and all of a sudden, like, you know, using, and I went to college in late, late 90s, early 2000s. And so when you saw people buying like pizza and gas and stuff with a credit card, I was just like, what is going on? Like, this is madness. Because it just didn't make any sense to me because it's just not something that we did. And so that's when I first realized that what I was like the conversations I had with my dad, the books that I read like, I thought about money differently than other people did. And I wanted to have those conversations, but I didn't know how to have them with my classmates.

It was like, why did you do that? Like, why? And it wasn't like a judgmental thing, but I just wanted to understand why those things were going on. And so, like, it led me on a journey to start like, oh, I think I want to help people have these conversations with their finances. Like, I think I want to help and do that. So that's where that road started to diverge. But in terms of my own personal money,

I didn't graduate with a lot of undergraduate loans. So I had very low loans from undergrad. But I definitely wanted to embark on sort of a career of helping people with their finances. Got it. So when you graduated, you're saying it didn't have very much student loan debt. What colleges you go to and what was your profession or what was kind of the immediate aftermath of college? Do you get right to graduate school? Yeah, yeah.

So funny enough, I went to Illinois Wesleyan University. So I grew up in Chicago in the 80s and 90s. so the Michael Jordan Bulls era. So I went to Illinois Wesleyan University, got a degree in business with a concentration in finance. And so as I'm on this journey, I thought I wanted to become a financial advisor.

I thought that was the route that made sense. But I had this sort of, I don't know, it was an unpleasant experience in an interview. So imagine I'm sitting there, I'm a 21-year-old kid, and I'm sitting there interviewing, and the guy I'm interviewing was not interested in anything that I had to say. zero eye contact. Maybe he had a ton of interviews that day, but he was clearly not interested in what I had to say. And so I'm just like, we're just going through the motions. I'm like, let's get this over with because I'm clearly not going to get hired. So all of a sudden, he asked me this random question that I'd never been asked before. I wasn't even prepared for it. He was like, hey, what does your father do or what do your parents do? And I said, I was stunned. I was like, that's not an interview question. I was like, my dad's a pediatrician and my mom's a nurse. She runs his private practice. And all of a sudden, his whole demeanor change.

changed. Like, he stood up straight, like, he looked up from the computer. He was all, like, he was really engaged. And it just felt so slimy to me. I was just like, whoa, like, everything changed in that moment. And for me, I was just like, oh, that felt wrong. Like, and so I ended up not doing financial advice because it was just such a, like, I'm not saying the financial advisors are slimy people or anything like that. But it was just, I just remember that that did not feel like the right path to go. And so I turned that down and I end up going corporate. So I end up working in commercial insurance,

doing insurance for businesses. I actually worked in the Sears Tower in Chicago for a while. So that was fun. But for me, it was, I always wanted to help people with their finances, but to me it just seemed like that was not the route for me to go. Got it. And when I feel bad about asking him if your dad was it, what your dad did for a living.

Yeah, but you were engaged before that, Scott. Yeah. Absolutely. So what changed? You went back to graduate school because you didn't get so many loans with your undergrad and you said that you paid off $100,000. Yeah, so I'm working, living the life in Chicago, I'm doing that thing. But for me, like, commercial and trends, like, wasn't like my career path.

And one of the things I just remember distinctly looking at people that were at the company that were, you know, 15, 20 years down the road. And I was not at all envious of their life. Like, it wasn't like, oh, that's where I want to go or that's where I want to be. So for me, going to grad school was like, all right, I definitely need to shift and find a different way of doing this. And I didn't have sort of like a model to figure that out. So for me, going to grad school was a path for me.

So I went back for my MBA. I went to Duke University for my MBA. And, you know, needless to say, that wasn't cheap. But it was a great experience for me. to be in a completely different environment. But I went with the idea of, hey, maybe I can work for a company that wants to get financial literacy in education, right, K-12 for college education. Maybe I can do it that way to serve sort of my need to want to help people with their personal finances. So that's the route that I went and why I went back to school. So can you tell us about

that experience and what kind of happened following graduation from grad school? Absolutely. So again, I had like an epic fail experience. So my summer internship in between the years of graduate school, I worked at a very large public school district. And one of the things that I noted, because for me the whole idea was let's get financial literacy in schools. I want everybody to have access to financial literacy education. And what I realized is that schools were struggling to get people on grade level,

like on reading level, right? So, like, financial literacy was like the 10th thing on the list. And there were so many issues involved with just, you know, public school systems in general that public center of financial education was just not going to get there. And the other thing that I realized while I was doing it was, oh, like teachers themselves are struggling financially for a variety of reasons. But I think education is much better. Like you learn better from practitioners than you would, like giving teachers,

curriculum to teach, right? And so for me, like, it just totally changed. That's why I call it sort of an epic fail. I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, this is not going to work. This is not going to work well. And so that's when I sort of got off the whole mission of like financial literacy in schools, because I just didn't feel like it was the right environment for kids to learn effectively, that sort of skill set because one, you know, they had a lot of other things going on. And two, the people that would be teaching weren't necessarily in the position to be able to practice what they preach it, essentially. So I don't want to completely derail this conversation, but this is really interesting that you say that because I have two children in school, nine and 12, and you're right. The way that you phrase that

is correct. The teachers don't even have enough time to teach what they're supposed to be teaching. You know, we're struggling with math, we're struggling with reading, we're struggling with all the regular things. Kids are coming to school. They don't have a full stomach so they can't pay attention. You know, the teachers themselves are having problems with their finances. They're not going to be able to teach properly something that they don't even understand themselves. So how do we get our kids to learn finances? You know, I think it should be something that they cover in school. I've seen this comment online a lot. You know, wow, I can't, things I didn't learn in school. I didn't learn how to get a mortgage.

I didn't learn how to balance a checkbook. I didn't learn how to do all this. But thank God I could do the Pythagorean theorem, which, by the way, has come up exactly zero times in my whole life outside of geometry class. So what's the solution? Fix it for us, Wilson. Yeah. So not going to fix it today.

But what I will say is that the most effective way to learn is, one, is being in a home environment, but two, just being surrounded by people that are in an environment, like the ones that you're creating, an environment where people are talking about it on a regular basis. So I often say that learning how to manage money is like learning a language. And so it is an immersion process. So for kids, I think, you know, like I was talking about with the experience of my father, my memories of him filling that jar, you know, with his change, was like the power of, you know, saving small amounts over time.

Like, that was the lesson that I got. And we never really, like, spoke about it. Like, he wasn't like, I'm trying to teach you that small amounts last of big things over time. It was just the visual that I was like, holy crap. Like, there's, in this freaking tube is like $500. Like, that's crazy for me. And so, and when you show me the receipt.

So I do think that there's, for me, what I tell people, particularly parents, is the best thing that you can do for your kids in terms of personal finance. is get your own finances under control. They will see your behavior, and they will mirror your behavior more than they will mirror your words. And so that's what I think is going to be the most effective, is to getting the adults. And that's sort of what I focus on is getting the adults

to build their financial foundation. Got it. So how did this, like, manifest itself for you in your time at Duke and following graduation from your MBA? Yeah. So you can imagine after leaving that internship, I was kind of wrecked. And so the whole reason I went to school was, you know, kind of thrown out the window for me in terms of that direction. And so I had to sort of recast and I ended up going the corporate out again.

But this time I worked for one of the largest 401K providers in the country. And my mission was, okay, like I was saying before, if I can help people get the basics of their finances together and get a large, large company to do that for the broader mass. because as you guys well know, like the financial services in the industry is tilted and geared towards the older and wealthy population, and that's who they serve and sort of everybody else has sort of left offender for themselves. And so my goal was to say, hey, if I can get this super large company to start focusing on regular people just a little bit, just a little bit more than they're doing, that might really move the needle. So that's how I moved in that direction.

While at the same time, I was like, okay, well, I happen to have a lot of students, student loan debt for the first time I have to have a lot of debt. So working for a big company actually makes a lot of sense right now in order to pay up all that student loan debt and do. And I happen to get engaged just before I graduated from grad school as well. So that was part of that journey. Engaged, like engaged to be married? Yeah, engaged to be married. Oh, okay. My wife went to business school at the same time. So we met just before going to business school or in the process of going to business school. So we had two, you know, six-fifigure student loan debts that we're working out and trying to pay off at the same time, like, after school.

So we graduated. And so we got engaged, we're going to get married. And I had a conversation with her. I was like, look, I can't deal with six-figure student loans. Like, I can't deal with debt. Like, I have a emotional reaction to having that much debt. And so I told her, like, I didn't, I was very clear with her once we got engaged that I didn't want to start a family until, like, I got rid of this debt because, you know, my mind in finance, I'm like worst case scenarios. Like, you're thinking about starting a family with kids. And what if you, you know, you're paying like $1,000 a month for student loans while you're, you know, I'm like, we can't have that. Like, I can't, I can't think of that scenario. And so she actually agreed. She was like,

fine. Okay. Like, you know, you can fast track your student loans. I support you, but know that you have a time limit. There's, there's, there's, there's, well, late 20s, early 30s. the time. It was like there is a finite period of time, which you can focus on this because we will be starting a family. So that helps propel the speed at which I was paying off those loans. What year did you graduate? So I graduated in 2011. So I paid off the loans by 2015. And my son was born just before I finished paying. My first son was born just before I finished paying off the loans. Okay. You just said something, you kind of glossed it over. You said that you paid off. You had just over $100,000 in student loan debt and that Mrs. Wilson also had six figures in student loan

debt. How much was her student loan debt? And did you pay that off too? Yeah. So she decided not to fast track the student loan debt. And so of course, you know, when you're married, you see the whole thing at once. But so for her, her focus was it didn't have an emotional, like she didn't have an emotional attachment to those loans. Like they didn't bother her. And so like it wasn't on me. to say, like, we both have to, you know, force me this kind of thing. And so for her, her focus was more on security. She wanted the, we got a super huge emergency fund. She started, you know, funding her retirement accounts. And I was like, if that's, you know, you can, you know, put your focus there, that's fine. Like, it wasn't a, she didn't have the sense of urgency about getting rid of that debt

that I didn't. And I was okay with that. So for her, she paid it off over a longer period of time. So it just took her like the 10 years as opposed to the five. So she stretched that out, but I was focused on it. And it helped in terms of our finances together because there's $1,000 less of expenses per month for us once I paid mine off. So that helped us tremendously particularly when the kids arrived. Did she have any sort of payment or repayment assistance program? Like teachers do we haven't really talked about what she does for living?

No. So she did consult. She does like health care consulting. So there wasn't any repayment assistance. She's cash flowing, paying off the student loan. So she just did it that way. She just straight paid it. There might have been sometimes where, you know,

if there was some extra money that she might have put to the loans, but she wasn't focused on paying it off as soon as possible. Okay. Now a personal question, do you share finances? Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Okay, that's interesting that you share finances.

And I'm not like, this sounds judging. I don't mean to be judging. No, no, no at all. You share finances and your debt was very weighing on you, but her debt was okay. And she's still paying it off. I mean, it's not like it's just sitting there. Yeah, and so I think the way that both of us looked at it was that we incurred the debt before we got married. And so that's why I think we see it a little bit individually, as opposed to a debt that we incurred together while we were married. And so to me, I saw myself coming into the marriage with six-figure student loans. Like, this was, like, I made that decision on my own to bring this into the relationship, and I need to get rid of it.

Like, I can't have it. But I didn't feel that strongly about the debt that she brought it. Like, so it wasn't as personalized for her student loan debt. Do I love it? Of course not. I wasn't as, it doesn't make me, emotionally, it doesn't rile me up as much as student loans that I've got coming by way. And to pay off that much debt, in just a couple of years.

I presume there was some lifestyle design choices that you made. Could you walk us through kind of what you did in order to save that much? Yeah, so you can imagine, so I went to Duke for grad school. She went to Northwestern. So funny enough, we were living in, I was living in Chicago. She was living in New York. She left New York to go to Chicago to go to Northwestern. And I left Chicago and to go to North Carolina.

And we were together at the same time. So that's kind of funny. But in terms, after we graduated, like get these fancy degrees, we essentially went back home because we got engaged just beforehand. We were getting married the following year. So we weren't going to live together until after we got married. And so she went back home to New York and was living at home while she was working. I went to work and I was doing like a rotational program. So I was all over the country. So I was kind of homeless. And so I was essentially paying rent payments towards my student loans for the first year or so. And we were also saving for the wedding.

And so because we had to cash flow a wedding. I'm like, we already have like student loan. I will not. pay a red cent of interest for the wedding. So yeah, so that's that's sort of how, that was one of the biggest lifestyle changes was to go back home because we had, for young people, we had pretty successful careers coming in. And so, you know, I had my, you know, sort of loft apartment in Chicago and downtown Chicago and that kind of thing. And it was great. And then it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, back to, oh, hey mom, hey dad. How you doing? So, yeah, but it was for a specific purpose and we knew that. We knew it was a short period of time because we were going to move in together after we got married. So after you got married, where did you end up living? So I was still

doing rotations with the company. So I was, sometimes I was living on the site that I was living corporately. So there were things like that, but I would travel home to New York. So we had an apartment in New York and Manhattan rent. Oh my goodness. Oh, my goodness. So yeah, so we didn't last in New York very long because I just couldn't take New York in prices. But yeah, so we, we lived there for a little while. And then once we moved in together, and then we moved towards where my job was in New England. So we lived in Rhode Island after that. So the cost of living went way down. And we were living together with dual income. So that helped both of us not save and having advanced towards the student loans. So this period where you're paying down your debt is about four years, right? And during that

period of time, how much of that was spent in New York, how much of it was spent in Rhode Island, how much of it was spent kind of meandering the country, whoever that your work took you? Yeah, so I had two years of meandering. After I graduated, two years of meandering, I was doing like six-month rotations in different sites for two years while she was in New York that first year. Then we got married. After we got married, she was in New York for a year and I was visiting back and forth. Then we moved to Rhode Island. Okay. And we were there for the last two years of that four years. four-year portion. So essentially, essentially two years in New York and two years in, because she was

living at home the first year. So two years in New York and then two years in Rhode Island. Got it. So when you got back to zero and paid this down, what did you kind of start doing with the capital that you began to accumulate in positive territory? Yeah. So first thing is when I didn't realize what set me on sort of the financial journey with the MoneySpeak Easy was my son was born August, 2015. So, you know, Facebook, you share with your friends, you post up a picture, you know, baby's born, everybody's happy, all that kind of good stuff. Four months later in December, I had sent the last payment in for my student loans to pay them all off. I just happened to share about that because we moved several times because, again, I was during, we had the

wedding and I just shared like, hey, I'm really excited. I was focused on this for four years and paid off all my student loan debt. When I put that up, that had more kind of, comments and private messages than when my son was born four months earlier. And so that to me signaled like, oh, there's a lot of people dealing with this stuff and a lot of people that are wanting to talk about it. So for me, that was sort of like a big signal like, okay, this is a topic that people want to talk about. So to answer your question, after that, we really focused on, I need freedom and flexibility.

And so that's when I got basically two years of expenses in cash to say, look, yeah, I'm probably not going to stay at this company either. So I need the FU fund. I need the flexibility because we're not going to stay in Rhode Island. You guys can see me. I don't look like I'm from Rhode Island. But yeah, so we focused on, one, we wanted to have a baby fund. And that was one of the things that my wife was working on

because she wasn't advancing towards a student loan. So she wanted to have a baby fund. And we also wanted to have, you know, basically two years of expenses. If I wanted to start a company, do something different, and live where we wanted to live. that we're able to do that. So that's what we focused on post-paying out the student loan debt. Awesome.

So once you accumulated that to your expense fund and the FU money, what happened next? And how long did that take you? I want to say that process was about a year because we left Rhode Island in 2016 and moved to D.C. And the funny thing about that was the beginning of 2016, we're sort of setting our goals for the year. And we said, okay, we're getting out of Rhode Island. We're going to D.C. and whoever gets the job first, the other one will follow and find a job going down there.

And so we did that, and my wife found the job first. And so we're going down there, we're looking for apartments. And you know, when you're looking for apartments, they have to, like, verify your employment and whatnot. So I gave them my, you know, my manager's phone number. And so I had told them because I wasn't really talking about, you know, moving to D.C. at all of my work. And so my boss was, and he called me and he was like,

hey, I'm getting calls about, you know, appointment. I was like, oh, don't worry about it. We're looking for houses. So just, you know, just verify that I'm employed there, whatever. And he's like, but the calls are coming from Virginia. And I was like, yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that on Monday. So, but what ended up happening is I ended up working remotely for them. But I would have never had the courage to be able to do that or have that conversation

had I not had that at you fund. Because if I wasn't in that situation, like they could have said, all right, well, you're moving. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for playing. So having that sort of financial security there is like, I'm moving to D.C. If you want me to keep working there, great. If not, all right.

So that's the kind of sentiment that I want more people to have is that they have control over their lives and where they work because a lot of people are living in cities and towns solely because of their employer. They would not be there otherwise. And I think that's not the ideal spot to be in. Yeah, say that again. say that I never would have had the courage if I hadn't had that money? Absolutely. So to be able to have that conversation and be in a position of,

I am moving, here's where I want to live, and this is where I'm going to be. So if you want me to work for you, we're going to have to accommodate the situation here that I'm living here. I would never have had that conversation or came at it with that sort of confidence had I not had the years of savings in my account just to say, you know, okay. And the debt paid down, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So that is so perfect. I am just going to stop this whole thing again and focus on that one more time because so many people, I'm starting to get a lot of emails from people, oh, well, it's not just about early retirement.

It's not just about quitting your job and never doing anything again. And, you know, you see online all these people who talk about how they retired early and now they have the freedom to do what they want. People are calling them out. We call them the internet retirement police. like, oh, well, you're not really retired. Well, but I don't work at a job that I don't want to work at. I don't live in a place that I don't want to live in anymore. I can do what I want.

It's about the freedom. It's about the independence. It's about the ability to choose what you want. It's not about the RE part. It's about the FI part. And you paid off the debt. You saved up the two years. And now you can live where you want to live.

And that's so powerful. Do you love your life? Yeah, I definitely focus more on the FI part. And for me, and this is not a political statement, but most states are at-will employment, meaning that your company, your employer, can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason at all, as long as it's not one of like those protected classes, right, like age, sex, race, that kind of thing. It's not for those justifications. But they can fire you for any reason, any purpose. And so the idea that I would design my life around company that can fire me at any point in time for any reason is insanity.

Or no reason at all. Just, you know what? Costs. You're just too expensive. I've got to go. I'll see you when I see you. So to me, like designing my entire life and bringing my family into a place where I don't have control of whether or not I'm going to be able to receive an income tomorrow does not make sense to me.

And so that to me was the FI like attraction to me. It's like, I've got to be in control of where I live, how I live, and how my family is able to survive in this environment. I love that. I think in the last five, six years, there's been a number of stories to this effect, right? Like, hey, you know what? I'm pretty good at my job. I don't really need it that bad. There's like a 10 very rough equivalence that I could go and get, you know, work out within a couple of weeks.

And I'm going to go do this thing and you got to be okay with that. And the reason that people are comfortable with that is because of exactly. exactly what you've done, right, is put yourself in position where you are negotiating from position of power in that dynamic. And I think that that's healthy. That's the way things should be, right? And that's the point of this. You don't get all the benefits of financial independence all at once at the very end when you quit and never return to work again downstream. You get them as you make progress and has the potential for more power in your life on an incremental basis day in and day out. Yeah, and I would just add to that, the employment contract has changed, right? And so

whether it's boomers or even older gen Xers, they grew up in a world where you had pensions. And so you're going to stay here and work for this company for 25, 30 years because we are paying for your retirement. So we made this mutual agreement that if you do X, you work for us for X amount of time, then we will pay for your retirement. That's gone. And so there's nothing, they essentially said no more pensions. You're basically on your own for retirement will help you a little bit. And so if that contract changes, my loyalty to you as a company changes because you're not paying for my retirement. Like you want me to be loyal to this company.

And that's great. I mean, people, I don't bash nine to fives at all, but I've got to be more loyal to my family than I am to the company. So that's sort of how I look at it. Yeah, that's beautiful. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact.

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So you have one son. You've moved to the D.C. area. You have a baby fund. Are you still working for that company now? I'm not now. Okay. I'm not now. I left a year or a year so ago.

And now we have a second son. And now you, okay. So two babies now and you don't have a job, a formal job anymore. What do you do? So I started transitioning to financial coaching. So during this process, during this time, I started to learn about like I didn't really know about blocking. I didn't know about the FI world. I didn't know about podcasting. I started learning about this stuff, one eye, around 2016-ish. And so ran into Tanya Rapley of my finance. And I was like, my gosh, it was almost like taking me all the way back to college, like with the financial

advisor. I was like, oh, people are doing it differently and they're actually working with regular people. And so one of the things that I said about working particularly with large firms is that I don't have any problem with it, but for me, it doesn't help me get out of bed in the morning, helping wealthy people get wealthier. Like, I wanted to help regular people win. Okay. So that, that for me was what sparks me. And so, again, I'm not bashing financial advisors and that kind of thing, but you're working with the wealthiest segment of a population and you're helping them get regular. Meanwhile, 80% of the population is living paycheck to paycheck. I want to help the 80%. I'm not necessarily as focused on the 20%. So that for me was that transition

started within the last three years as I found out about FI and the blogging world and that kind of thing. I was like, oh, there's another way to go about it. So that's when I started doing financial coaching and logging and that kind of thing and pursue the money-speak easy. So what is something that you see a lot of people doing wrong? Yeah, so I would say the biggest mistake, and this goes back to what I mentioned earlier, I think the biggest mistake people make with their finances is they treat their finances like a task instead of a skill. So again, your finances, managing your money is a skill, a skill that you develop over time.

And I compared it earlier to learning a language. it is a skill that is developed over time. So people get frustrated. They start their budget and they're like, I can't do budgeting. Like it just doesn't work for me. And I tell people all the time, you know, your budget will suck. The first time, the first month, the first two months, first three months, first four months, it'll suck.

You forget things. It's not going to work. You're not going to, you know, abide by it. But the other way I talk about it in terms of managing your cash flow. Just people are the dreaded B word. Like it's like you're managing your cash flow. So I think there are things when you're, you treat it as a long-term trend, a long-term lifestyle difference, as opposed to like a get-rich

quick or I'm just going to put this thing on my to-do list, I think when you look at it that way and you approach your finances that way as a long-term thing, I think it is better for people in the long run. That's one of the biggest mistakes I see with people making with their finances. Yeah, it's just like losing weight. You didn't get to 400 pounds overnight. You're not going to get back to 150 overnight. You didn't get $100,000 in debt overnight and you didn't pay it off overnight. But not paying it off doesn't make it go away. Not making, you know, taking the first steps. And, you know, first thing you do is cut out soda. And the first thing you do is cut out, you know, going out to eat or just start tracking your finances. That's really the first thing that you need to do is start

tracking your spending and see where your money's going. And that's, I think so many people are just like, well, I still have money in the, you know, what's this saying? I still have checks. I can't be overdrawn. Yeah, no, you absolutely can't be. So a quick thing. I lived in the D.C. area. And so earlier in the year, we had the government shutdown. And so we had people that, you know, there are a lot of people that are fluent in the D.C. area. And for some people, it's not necessarily just an income thing, right? Like, there are people with high incomes that are living paycheck to paycheck. And so when a lot of those people went, I think it lasted about five weeks. So they went two paychecks. They went almost two paychecks. And they were,

you know, a lot of people on the verge of not being able to pay rent that following month. And so I think that, you know, it was more of a D.C. local thing when people, people open their eyes. But for me, like, and I'm an analyst guy, like, I knew the numbers. Like, I know that, you know, that a large percentage of our population is really struggling. And they don't, they are living on the edge. And even people with high incomes that are living on the edge. Yeah, well, your paycheck to paycheck when you spend the entire paycheck before the next paycheck comes. It doesn't matter how big or how small that paycheck is. When you put nothing in the bank, you're still paycheck to paycheck.

Oh, I make six figures. Yeah, you spend six figures too. Exactly. And it wasn't just DC. I've been through several government shutdowns. My husband used to work for the VA. And you watch these people scramble and frantic and you're like, but you make six figures. How can you be having such a hard time with this?

but it's because you're spending that much money too. Do you remember, I remember the NBA lockdown or lockout and shut down, whatever? All those guys are making way more than six figures. And they were defaulting on their mortgages on all their mansions because they are also paycheck to paycheck because they don't know anything about running their finances like a skill. They don't have that skill. And it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't matter how much money you make. You can still be paycheck to paycheck.

Absolutely. So, okay, what's the first? first thing you teach people to do with their finances? Well, the first thing I work on with people with their finances is their mindset. And it goes back to what you were just talking about in terms of the money is not necessarily the level of income is important, but it is not the be all end of. Where people come to their mindset with money, there are people that believe that wealthy people are evil. Right. And so if you have an inherent belief that wealthy people are evil, when you come into money,

you're going to make sure that you get rid of it as soon as possible because you inherently believe that you're not evil. So you run into things like that where people's mindset about money, what they're taught about money, the kinds of things that they say to themselves about money. Just the idea of the thought of, I'm not good with my money,

is a self-defeating belief. And so there's conversations of, hey, tell me how your parents talked about money. tell me what kind of emotions. It's funny coming from a guy, I'm like, tell me about your emotions that come up when you think about money. But those are the types of important conversations, particularly like in a couple sort of situations

because they could be coming up, coming from two completely different situations. And so that's the first thing that we sort of work on is a mindset that you are valuable enough to reach your financial goals and be financially wealthy and healthy. So we start there before we even get into the numbers. just a moment here. When you're talking about how there are people who believe that wealthy people are evil,

that accumulation of money is evil, can you kind of go into that for a second? I guess that's something new to me, you know, just that this concept that we're preaching is perceived as evil by some people. Well, so you, and again, not to get into political discourse, but like you see it in our political discourse that the billionaires are evil and they're trying to control everybody else.

And so we're all going to be billionaires, but that filters down to millionaires and whatnot as well. So this sort of belief that wealthy people are evil, or even what the definition of wealth is, because what people think wealth looks like is not what it really is. So, you know, like the millionaire next door, it's another book, my dad made. So the million next door describes how most millionaires

are really frugal people that dress normally. The average car that they drive is a Ford. And so it's not the extravagant Hollywood thing. So just getting rid of those perceptions and those negative perceptions because you will be governed by your own self-perception. Right. And so if you believe you are not that, you will do everything that you can to self-sabotage and not.

So you get a windfall and you're like, oh my gosh, like great money's coming in. but like, but I don't want to be one of those people. So, yeah, I always tell people, there are poor jerks and there are rich jerks. There are wealthy, you know, bad and fantastic wealthy people, and there are, you know, there are wealthy jerks. And so the money is not the difference. The people are the difference.

It's almost like alcohol. It's like the more you have a bit, the more you show up it yourself. So it's not the be all and all of the thing. And so those are sort of the conversations that we have to have. at in the beginning. So I try to get a sense of where people are at and how they think about what money means to them. And I talk about money being a valuable resource that you use to support things that are invaluable, like your time, your family, and your talent. Right. And so that's the way that I look at money and how I think about money. So what's an example maybe of one of these

types of conversations with someone who is particularly hard to convince to change their ways, who is clearly having problems or anything like that. I'm trying to get inside the mind of someone who maybe is really struggling with this concept for the first time. Yeah, so I work with sometimes folks that may have come from a financially strapped background, right? So, you know, let's say they're doing well for themselves, but they're the first, they may be the first person in their family to go to college,

for example. So they are the example, but they don't feel like it because they're like, okay, I'm coming out of college. I've been out of college for a few years. I'm making $60,000. I'm making more than my parents made their whole lives. But I've got student loan.

I feel like I'm struggling and I'm not doing well with my money. So I'm not doing it right, but I'm supposed to be the example. And so there's this sort of tension between how other people perceive me versus how I perceive myself. And so people have to give themselves grace.

Right? Like this is a long journey. And you have to give yourself grace over time. Like this is going to be something that improves over time. As Cindy was saying, it's not going to happen overnight. And so I try to give people the space because there's a lot of shame, blame, and guilt that comes with money. And so at least acknowledging that that stuff exists, that stuff's there, and it's not really real, is part of the process of overcoming those things. So I think it's just putting it out in the

air. Bernay Brown always talks about like a vulnerability and just shining the light on it. I feel really shameful about this situation. And once you say it out loud, it sort of dampens it down a little bit. Like, okay, I said it out loud. Like, I had $100,000 a student loan debt. Okay. All right. Let's do something about it.

Great. So that's the kind of environment that I try to create for my clients. You know, Rockstar Finance had a net worth tracker, was it? Scott, do you remember what I was talking about? Yeah, it was like 500 something financial. bloggers in their net worths or whatever. Yeah, I thought that was really, really interesting and very powerful to look at this and see they span from like 10 million or more net worth to negative 600,000 because I think there were

two doctors that were married and had massive student loans or something. And seeing that list was very helpful to me just to see, oh, look at all these people who know it all. and they have varying levels of success with money. And that's not really the right way to say it either because you're not unsuccessful with money because you have $600,000 in student loan debt. You're not successful with money just because you have $10 million in net worth. Maybe you got lucky.

Maybe you won the lottery. Maybe you have a million dollar a year job and you spend $20,000 a year. I guess that would kind of make you successful with money. I should stop now. But that list was very helpful. It is helpful because we. naturally compare ourselves to others. And that's fine, but we have to have a conversation about like running our own race. And for what I talk about is, hey, look, I don't necessarily, like,

first of all, I can't convince everybody to budget. I've realized that doing this a little while, like some people are just having aversion, like they see a spreadsheet and it's like the bane of their existence. I get it. So I just ask people to track two numbers, right? Their net income, right? So after they pay all their expenses, what's left over, net income, and their net worth. If you can track those two numbers, I'm fine. If you don't want to budget, fine. I just need those two numbers. But it's not the number. It is to trajectory over time. So to me, what I would say, especially when you see those numbers at list, what direction is it going? As long as it's going in a positive direction and you're headed towards something, that is success. I want you to be moving in a positive

direction. If it's negative 600,000 and you're moving towards zero, fantastic. If it's zero and you're moving towards 600,000 on the positive side, fantastic. Just move it in a positive direction for month to month. That's your win. That's so smart. You are only competing with yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, a lot of people have come on and said, hey, there's an aha moment. There's a moment when I got it or get it and figured it out. How does that manifest itself with the people you work with when you're talking about this kind of thing. Have you experienced a couple of those with clients? Yeah.

So when I first started anonymously, because I was still working at the time, and I didn't want it tied to my employer. So I was just like, all right, we're not talking about this at work. And so I want other people to be talking about this topic. And so I'd write about it. And one of the issues that I had is that I felt like, particularly with the large financial services industry, is they're talking to people. let's say there's from bottom to five, let's say there's like 15 steps.

I felt like the financial services industry is talking to everybody that is starting at step seven. And I'm like 80 plus percent of the country is struggling on steps one through six. So can we just start talking about steps one through six? So when I started writing, I was writing and trying to talk about steps one through six. but even just having the personal, the financial background and working in the financial services industry, I was still talking at a level above where I thought my readers were. And I didn't realize that at the time. Like, I was still using terms and using lingo.

And so that aha moment for me was when I started coaching individually. And I would say things like I'd be talking about a credit report. And somebody would stop me and say, I've never seen a credit report before. And it's like, oh, like, I need to back up. I've been talking about credit reports for 15 minutes. So those kinds of things. And I don't want to say dumb it down, but we have to understand,

particularly that there is no formal education for any of this stuff. All of this stuff is learned outside of the classroom. And so we have to give people grace to be able to catch up with us and start where people are. That's why I focus on people's financial foundation. I want everybody to have a solid financial foundation. Before they, you know, like I love five. Believe me, I love five.

But like, I need folks to get their financial foundation together. And that's what I want people to focus on. Seems like another good application of your, this is a language analogy, right? You can't start constructing sentences until you know the alphabet, then the letters and then the words. Absolutely. Let's just start with the basics. The letters, one word at the time. Exactly.

Is there anything else that we should be talking about or thinking about here before we begin moving on to our famous four? No, let's move on. Let's do the famous four. All right. Okay. It is time for the famous four. These are the same five questions. We ask all our guests. Four questions in one command, as Scott says. I just like that it's called the famous four and there are five questions. Okay, anyway, Wilson, what is your favorite finance book? I definitely have to go with Ristandth, Porda. just because of my relationship with my father.

I know it's the common one, and everybody's read it, but two reasons. One is my relationship with my father and how that sort of came up because he was the poor dad. But I felt like he was giving me the ability to take a different path. Right. And so he was guiding me in that direction. So for me, that's personal. And the second reason is it's a narrative story.

Like a lot of the personal finance books are like, here's what you need to know. One, two, three, four, and step by step. And it was a decent narrative story. And I was like, oh, I was compelled by the story. I was like, oh, it's a nice story. It's a nice story. It's a nice outward. I like it.

Yeah, some of us love that book. Some of us don't like that book. I'm one of those people who love rich dad, poor dad. I think it's a, it's just very powerful. It's very accessible. It's written from the perspective of an eight-year-old, right? At the beginning of the book. So it makes it so that it's very easy to digest a lot of the concepts that he's talking about.

And you feel, it feels accessible, I guess. So, you know, we've talked about that book a million times on this show and The Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. If you haven't read that one, it's a classic. And I think you should. And for your listeners, I'll give you another book that's not a personal finance book, but I love it. Atomic Habits by James Clear.

So we talked about this language and just a habit formation and building habits over time. Like, he just killed it in terms of how he talks about how to build sustainable habits over time, doing the smallest little things that you can do that add up over time. And I think that's the way that we have to look at finance as well. I have not checked that book out, but I've heard great things. So I'll have to go read it. All right. So what was your biggest money mistake? And if it was the student loan debt, what was your second biggest money mistake? I don't consider the student loan debt the mistake of going back to school because I mean, I met my wife and a lot of the locals speaking of me. So I can't say going back to school was a mistake. But I would say probably not maxing out

my 401Ks in my 20s. Like, great time in Chicago, like, loved it. Like, you know, but I got money I wasted, you know, like having to live downtown and be, you know, like, Bachelor in Chicago is like, I look back on that. I was like, that's dumb. Like, you could have done half of that and still, you know, fully funded your 401K. So I would do that. Great.

Love it. Opportunity cost. Absolutely. When were you in your 20s? Chicago because I think I was there too. I was there. I graduated in 2003. So yeah, so basically 2003 and I left and came back. So basically 2003 to 2009 was when I was there in Chicago. Yeah, that was a good time. Indeed. I loved it. I thought you looked familiar. What is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out? I would go back to what

I was saying before that realizing that managing money is a skill and not a task. I think, again, have to give themselves grace, like you're not going to, this thing is not going to change overnight. You really have to step back and understand, like, the personal finance game is almost all behavioral. And so it's almost all about how I make choices about managing my money in a way that aligns with my values. And so that's what I talk to people about is how can I, if I looked at your bank statement, would your bank statement tell you that you spend the most money on what's most important to you and the least money on what's least important to you? And if that's not the case, then let's do some work to get it there. So that's how I would think about money if you're

just starting out. Beautiful. All right, what is your favorite joke to tell at parties in Chicago? Yeah, so I'm not really much of a joke teller. So maybe you have some jokes from guests or whatnot. out of. I will say that I use a lot of self-deprecating humor. One, because I'm a six-foot-six black guy and it's 250 pounds. And so I usually stand out in a room. And so I usually use self-deprecating humor. I'll tell people about when I went like skydiving or skiing. Or snowboarding. I mean, I went snowboarding once. And being six-six, I have a really low center of gravity. So yeah, I usually tell people about that. But I don't, I don't usually do the one-off jokes. Well, I have a joke that a woman told me at the Bigger Pockets conference we had earlier this year.

How does the Rock go to the bathroom? He dweens his Johnson. Is that inappropriate? I don't think that's inappropriate. That's not inappropriate, is it? As soon as I said that, I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that. I'll take it. I'll take it.

It doesn't know what it would be great, but it is a joke. Oh, yeah, they're not good. When the rock goes to the store to purchase items to cut paper and other types of things with, you know, does he buy those items in bulk or how does that work? It's the rock. He pays per scissors. Sorry. Okay.

I butchered that one. We'll try it later. I got it. I got it. I got it. I don't. I dug that one up for a long time ago. All right.

Where can people find out more about you? Wilson. Absolutely. They can find out about me on my website. Themoneyspeakese.com. That's T-H-E-M-N-E-N-E-Y. S-E-A-K-E-S-E-A-S-Y. They're And I'll also find me uniformly on social media at moneyspeakEasy.com or at MoneySpeak Easy. I'm sorry. Okay. And we will have all of those links in our show notes, which are found at biggerpockets.com slash money show 96. From the MoneySpeak Easy, this was Wilson Muscaton. Wilson, this was really awesome. I'm so glad we finally connected. I am elated. I had a great time. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming on. I remember it now, by the way. Does Dwayne Johnson purchase bulk shears. No, the rock paper, scissors. Anyways, yes. Great having you on, Wilson. Fantastic.

Yes, it was great having you on. I'm sorry that the jokes were horrible. It's all right. But actually, actually that's your fault because you're supposed to bring a joke. Google, Google, worst joke ever. And next to Scott's face, you will see a list of all of his terrible jokes. Nice. Okay, we'll talk to you soon. All right, thanks again. All right. That was Wilson. musketon from the money speakeasy.com. Mindy, what do you think? I loved everything he said today. So many things I'm sitting there typing, you know, quote this, quote this, quote this. I have five or six quotes from this episode. Money is a resource is a valuable thing that you trade for invaluable things like time. And there is no formal education for any of this.

I just, I love that concept so much because, you know, so many people, like he said, so many people have this shame that they're in debt. If you don't know what you're doing, you're probably not going to do it right. Don't look to me to do brain surgery on you. I bet I don't do it right. But go to the guy who's learned how. He wasn't born knowing how to do brain surgery. He had to learn. You're not bored knowing how to run your money. You have to learn. No, yeah. I think it's completely true. And what I found kind of particularly enlightening for me, you know, aside from all the wonderful things he shared in the story, is just how, how people are almost against,

they're most afraid to talk about money, not out of a sense of powerlessness or hope, but almost as a money is evil or money is this thing that I shouldn't be good with because people who are good with money or who are wealthy are the problem in our society. And I think that's, you know, an interesting perspective and narrative

that will need to work to continue to change. Yeah, well, you know, there's, I think the spotlight is on the billionaires who are evil or, you know, know, changing the world in ways that maybe you don't want to see it changed. But there's not enough of a spot like Bill Gates. Bill Gates, the Microsoft guy was, you know, evil and he was taken over the world. But Bill Gates, the head of the Gates Foundation, he's bringing water to countries that don't have water. And basic, what is it, malaria? No, is that the mosquito one?

You get bit by a mosquito when you get malaria? That costs 10 cents a dose. But if you don't have access to the medicine, you're going to die of malaria, which is a horrible, horrible thing and so easy to not die from if you have the medicine. So that Bill Gates is amazing. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I should say Melinda Gates is amazing too. Well, you know, another thing I think is, I wonder if it's really like, oh, Bill Gates is evil, is a narrative, or if it's that kid who has a rich parent, rich father or something like that, that's the evil. you know, that person driving the car that they didn't work to earn or whatever is, is the person that maybe I sense a lot of the narrative against, you know,

maybe more so than Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates. I could be wrong, though. Yeah, I'm not sure why people think that money is evil, except that maybe it's kind of an us against them. Us is the poor people and, oh, we're kept down and the rich people are, you know, controlling everything. But so go be rich then. Listen to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast and spend less than you earn and one day.

One day you too will be considered evil by other people. No, but just because you have money doesn't mean you're doing bad things. Bill Gates started that whole, God, I'm totally drawing a blank on this initiative that he did like the billionaires pledge or something where Warren Buffett, another best friend of mine is pledging all of his money to this foundation so they can go out and bring the malaria. drugs to the parts of the world that don't have it, but still have malaria. Bring water, clean water to people. So, you know, you can use your money for good. You should use your money for good. But first you have to get that money.

I read recently that there is $68 trillion that will be transferred over the next some odd number of years from the wealthiest generation in human history, the baby boomers, to largely the millennial generation. And interesting ramifications and societal impacts that will come from that. So something to noodle on that stat and wonder what that means in the context of this session. But maybe we'll have somebody another day on who can kind of walk us through that in more detail. Yeah. What is it?

The first generation earns it. The second generation grows it and the third generation squanders it? I don't know. I have heard something good effect, yes. Okay. Well, if you know what that is, please give us a, send us an email and let us know exactly what we're trying to say here. Yeah. Okay.

from episode 96 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, this is Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, and we got to go, Buffalo. Nice. You know what the Buffalo, the mama Buffalo said when she was leaving her kids for the day to go to work? Bye, son. Bye, son. That's horrible too.

Okay, there you go. You get an extra little joke, courtesy of Scott. And you can email him at Scott at Bigger Pocket. Oh, my God. Okay, I quit. Goodbye. It was nice knowing you all for 96 episodes. sets.