BiggerPockets Money Podcast - How to FIRE in Your 40s on a Teacher’s Salary (or Average Income) (Finance Friday)

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Is it possible to reach FIRE by 45, even on a teacher’s salary or an average income? Today’s guest is proving that, yes, you can retire early, regardless of your paycheck. It may be a little harder than it is for high-income earners, but with frugality, discipline, and smart investments, regular people can achieve FIRE! Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money podcast! At just 31 years old, Kat has been diligently maxing out her retirement accounts, saving a ton of cash, and making enormous strides towards retiring by age 45. Most would say this is a long shot for someone with a teacher’s salary, but thanks to a high savings rate and savvy financial decisions, Kat is right on track to reach her lofty goal. The real question is, should she? Kat will need to grind for the next 15 years to retire on her original timeline. Is it worth taking an extra couple of years to reach financial independence if it prevents burnout? In this episode, Mindy and Amberly will break down Kat’s options, help her avoid the dreaded middle-class trap, and give her a roadmap for achieving FIRE quickly while also enjoying the journey! In This Episode We Cover Kat’s roadmap to FIRE by age 45 (on a teacher’s salary!) Why you DON’T need to be a high income earner to retire early When to stop contributing to retirement accounts and pivot to other investments Giving yourself financial flexibility by saving cash (and how to deploy it) When you should (and shouldn’t) pay off your mortgage early Why it’s worth taking extra time to enjoy the journey to financial independence And So Much More! Links from the Show Mindy on BiggerPockets Scott on BiggerPockets Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Join BiggerPockets for FREE Email Mindy: [e-mail] Email Scott: [e-mail] BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group Follow BiggerPockets Money on Instagram “Like” BiggerPockets Money on Facebook Subscribe to the BiggerPockets Money YouTube Channel! The Simple Path to Wealth The Fioneers Coast FI Calculator FIRE Faster with the Book, “Set for Life” Sign Up for the BiggerPockets Money Newsletter Find an Investor-Friendly Agent in Your Area BiggerPockets Money 259 - Pensions 101: Are Pensions Worth It? w/ Grumpus Maximus Connect with Amberly Check out more resources from this show on BiggerPockets.com and https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-629 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if you could access your retirement funds years before traditional retirement age without paying hefty penalties? Today's Finance Friday guest is hoping to retire by the age of 45, but she doesn't have a really clear understanding of the investing order of operations and what is best, quote unquote. Today, we are going to break down the options that she has to make her five dream a reality in just 14 years. This is a great episode if you're worried about the middle class trap and how, to make sure it doesn't get in your way of financial freedom. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me while Scott Trench is out on paternity leave is Amberly Grant.

Hello, I'm happy to be back here hanging out with you, Mindy. I'm so excited you're here. All right, guys, I'm going to put on my best Scott impression, hopefully better than last time. Bigger Pockets has a goal of creating one million millionaires. You are in the right place if you want to get your findings. House in order because we truly believe that financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter what or when or where you have started. I think you're really starting to get that.

Again, Scott's voice is a little lower, but that was spot on. Okay, Kat, thank you so much for joining us today. We're so excited to talk to you. Yay, thank you so much for having me, Mindy. Thank you, Amber Lee. It's so nice to meet you guys. It's nice to meet you. Kat, can you share where your journey with money begins?

I can. So I was brought up in the middle class and my parents really like set the stage for me in terms of money and how to work with money. And ultimately they taught me a few values. They taught me a value of frugality and they taught me a value of generosity. And the value of frugality, even though, you know, we could afford all the things we needed to afford. Like, you can see that my mom still has her 1998 Honda Civic. And I think it's indestructible at this point. I always have been a saver. I've had a piggy bank under my bed since I was a kid.

And that was great, except I never really, like, put my money into a high-yield savings account. Like, I didn't know about that. Like, my parents, I've always, like, trusted them explicitly. or implicitly with everything. And like my parents always invested for me, which was great. We were investing, except I didn't realize we were investing in only a few stocks. It was fine when we were invested in Apple in the early, you know, 2000s. But then over time, there's just a few stocks that were in and those didn't do well. And I'm at the early stages of my life. So for me, I can pivot. And I was lucky enough to graduate without debt in school. And I was able to buy a house. So I have like a

good setup for myself. But, you know, it's of course different for my parents because they're a bit later in life. And so I just started realizing like I can't just trust other people with taking care of me. Like I also have to make sure I'm taking care of myself with my finances. Woman with a master's degree in chemistry. Like I should know more about my money. And then my friend Anna Banana. We were in Ireland together and she told me about this fire movement. I was like, what the heck is that? I'm like, I can't retire early. I'm a teacher. But I just been absorbing your podcasts. Like literally, it's delicious to me. And so, yeah, I'm grateful to be here and to share my story. So thanks. Thank you so much, Kat, for sharing all of that. It's really nice to hear, you know,

where you come from because it really does inform where you're going. You mentioned you're a teacher. Can you tell us a little bit about how far into teaching you are, what maybe state you teach, and yeah, tell us that. I am a science research teacher in New York State, and it is my seventh year teaching, but I am on step eight. We have like a step system for salary from some of my other experiences with AmeriCorps. They counted that towards my steps. Excellent. That's really nice. And do you do something outside of teaching as well? Not anything that really like brings home the bank, but I get some money for the specialty class I teach science research because it takes a lot of time outside of the school day. And I also tutor like every week, every weekend.

Excellent. And you mentioned you're in a step system. So what is your current salary? My current salary is around 87 to 88,000. And if I add my stipend as a research teacher, then it's closer to like 90,000. Excellent. Congrats on that. At 30 years old, that is awesome. Like really, really great. I wasn't making $90,000 at age 30. I think New York State is one of the highest paid teacher salaries. So I do think I have advantage in that regard. But we also are one of the most. most expensive places to live. I was just going to ask, would you characterize your area as high cost of living or medium cost of living? I would characterize it as medium to high. It's hard for me to compare it when I've only really lived in New York, but I remember traveling to a few other places. And I was like, this is still pretty expensive in like places around the country where I thought

things would be cheaper. So I would say definitely, it's not New York City prices where I live, but it's very close to that. Yeah. Kat, what is your retirement goal? My retirement goal is kind of a rough goal of being able to retire by around 45. I know that I will need if I was to completely retire about $1.2 million. That is based on the 4% rule that you guys talk about a lot. It's all kind of estimates, but. So $1.2 million, that is a great number.

Let's look at your actual numbers right now. I've got a net worth of $388,000. That's pretty awesome for a teacher. That's pretty awesome for somebody in their early 30s. That's pretty awesome all the way around for just an American at any age, at any salary, because Americans are, you know, more paycheck to paycheck. So that's broken up into $40,000 in a 403B, $16,000 in a Roth IRA, $11,000 in a brokerage account, $2,000 in a $529 plan.

I do see $42,000 in cash. I'll ask you about that in a little bit. And I see about $300,000 in home equity, $250,000,000 depending on that. So currently, I don't think that you have enough to retire, but you're not trying to retire at 32. You're trying to retire at 45. So we do have a timeline horizon that I think is pretty doable, especially because you're making $90,000. Let's look at all the income. Do you and your partner combine finances?

At this time, we do not. He contributes to my mortgage because the house is in my name currently. And we kind of do like every other for groceries. So he pays me essentially as part of like. like, you know, taking off some money from the mortgage. So I see a grand total of household income of $134,000. But since you don't share expenses, let's say $90,000 for you plus $2,000 in a $1099. Is that the tutoring that you were talking about?

Oh, yeah. That is the side tutoring. Okay. And then I see $900 in other income. So that is what, $90, $93,000? That's great. current expenses, I have 3601. So we've got the mortgage payment of 800,

groceries of 400, restaurants at 300, entertainment at $9. Slow down, Kat. I don't know what you're doing with that nine whole dollars, but come on, you're trying to reach financial independence. $150 for travel,

300 for utilities, $20 for clothing, $400 for shopping, $122 for insurance. I don't see anything really crazy in these expenses. And I'm going to do some quick math here times 12 is $43,000. You're bringing in $93,000 and you're spending $43,000. I think you're doing okay.

I see debts of $14,000 at 0% interest. I wouldn't pay that off any sooner than you had to or any sooner than that 0% interest would go away. I do see a pension with a potential value of $99,000 a year. That's nothing to sneeze at except you're only seven years into, what, a 20-year commitment? It would be actually 32 more years of teaching in order for me to get that at the current pension system that I have. So that is part of my motivation for looking into if I can fire. I do think that there's a likely chance that will change because our union in New York State is pretty strong.

And so they'll try to get that to 55, which is where tier four teachers are currently at. But I don't know. So I want to make sure I'm taking care of myself so that if I don't want to work until I'm 62 and they don't change. it, then I don't have to. Now we need to take a quick ad break. But listeners, I am so excited to announce you can now buy your ticket for BPCon 2025, which is October 5th through 7th in Las Vegas, Nevada. Score the early bird pricing for $100 off your ticket by going to biggerpockets.com

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wealthier if I waited another 10 years? No, it's not silly to retire at 45, even though you could be wealthier. You know what? You'd be even more wealthier if you waited another 20 years. And you'd be even more wealthier if you waited another 30 years. You could just work forever. You want time freedom. You are seven years into a 39-year commitment. I don't think I would be looking at that pension as something that I was going to be able to collect. I would be putting it to the side. Should the rules change and you are able to collect even a dollar from it?

Yay. And that is where my pension knowledge ends. So I am going to send you on a little homework assignment. Oh, you're a teacher. Here's homework for you. Episode 259 of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. We spoke with somebody who goes, he's anonymous. he goes by the name grumpus maximus and he talked to us all about pensions how to value your

pension, how to see if it's even worth pursuing. And it's been a minute since he shared all of that. I've recorded, I don't know, 400 episodes since then. So I don't remember all of the things that he shared with us. But luckily, we recorded it. So you can go and listen to that episode. Start doing a little bit of homework on your pension. Talk to your HR department or whatever the equivalent is and ask them,

what happens if I don't retire at 55? What happens if I retire at 45? Is there like an age minimum where if I don't work until that age, I don't get anything at all? And then I would just not even worry about this or consider this pension right now. And everybody listening who has pensions, we're like, no, it's worth money. Great. I'm sending her on a homework assignment so she can determine how much this is worth.

But I think, first of all, at age 31, you're at a great financial position. Your goal is to retire in 14 years. I think that's doable. You asked what age should you stop contributing to your 403B and instead put it into a brokerage account? Amberly, do you have any ideas about that? Well, first of all, I wanted to ask and step back here and say, in retirement, do you expect your expenses to stay the same?

Because when I'm looking here at your number of $1.2 million, that is, about $4,000 a month in, you know, take home essentially pay for yourself to cover those expenses that are now at $3,600. So there's only about a $400 buffer. What are you thinking about for your expenses when you're approximately 45 years old? I think that my goal is to pay off my mortgage by then. So that should lower my monthly payment by about $1,000. So it would free up $1,000. I would like to retire after I pay off my mortgage so that that's taken care of, yeah. I have to ask, I know dogs are life?

Are you planning on adding any other creatures or spawn to your life in the next 15 years? Yes, thank you for asking. That is a big part of the equation is whether or not I add spawned to my life. I don't know. I undecided I did start a 529 as Mindy read out before and part of that was maybe I would one day and I want to make sure it's the spawn would be ready. I don't know. I am still calling them a spawn. But, you know, I'm not convinced of that because I have a great life and I love my current dogs. And so yeah, right now I'm planning. as if I'm not having kids and I'll just donate that 529 to a kid in need. But it's a possibility. I don't know what the future holds for me. Perfect.

Yes, because I wanted to know that just because kids always change the equation if we do end up going that direction. But with life, you can pivot every single time something new jumps in. That's when you take a look at the environment that you're in and say, hey, is this still my goal? Or does my goal change based on the way? the new inputs. So I think that's okay. And it's okay not to know right now. And we'll just continue moving forward as if it's a no. And then you can make a choice later on. All right, when you're saying you're going to pay down your mortgage so that you're mortgage free in about 15 years, I'm looking at you're going to be spending about $15,000, $16,000 a year of that salary to pay

that down over the next 14 years. So that's going to take a lot of your like a big chunk of change. Is there an emotional reason that you want to pay this down or is it just financial so that you don't have to be responsible for it when you're going to your when you're fi? I think it's both. Like I think I detest having a loan out, especially it's such a big number. Like, you know, it was shared earlier that I have this net worth, but of like 300 and something thousand. But when, you know, so much of it is in my house and not in. paper. I'm just like, let's just pay off the house, which I think is an emotional response and doesn't add more to the paper. But yeah, so I think it's emotional. And I also think that it would make me

feel more free when I'm retired early, potentially, to, you know, not have to have a mortgage payment. Yeah, completely understand. I think when you look at the math, when it comes to whether you should pay down your mortgage early or not, it really does rest on interest rate, and then we can look at emotions as well. With an interest rate of 3.1%, I believe that's what it was, that's quite low, especially if you're going to compare that to putting money in the market, and you have such a tight horizon for what you want that money, like for how long you have to start putting money into the market, I actually might recommend that you don't pay down your mortgage super early.

It may be a little bit earlier than you were planning on it, but maybe not putting a lot of money towards it. And instead redirecting that money towards not only your retirement accounts, but perhaps a brokerage account. And I think we're going to get into that in a second here. So just something to think about. If it is an emotional reason, I always say, you know, emotions trump finances. So I can understand why you do that. But it may be something just to take a little bit more of a reflection on and perhaps continue to keep your mortgage in later years. Yeah, Amberly and I are both on team keep the mortgage. But because you have a 3.125% rate,

I think we should say that so that because not everybody is looking at your spreadsheets, Amberley and I have them in front of us. And the 3.125% rate is not a rate that you are probably ever going to see again in your whole life. And you can always pay that off later. you can put the money into a high-yield savings account while you're making your minimum payments and investing the rest. Because the point that I have is once you pay off your mortgage, that money is locked into your house. Sure, you can pull it out with a home equity line of credit, which is currently at like 8 or 9%

interest. I don't like paying 8 or 9% interest because I'm cheap. So I would want to put that in a high-yield savings account. So I have the option to take it and throw it all at the mortgage when I'm ready to retire and say, now I'm retiring mortgage free. Or I can look at it and say, wow, I've got that money to pay the mortgage. I am going to instead invest it or I've grown all of my other buckets so I don't really need to pay that off. You have more options when you have a big bucket of money. So I like the idea of paying extra to a mortgage until I see that 3%.

rate. Thanks. Yeah, I see that. And I started shifting, like, just within the last month, because I've been, like, drinking your podcast. And I'm like, oh, I've heard you give that advice to someone else before. And I'm like, yeah, I do have a low interest rate. And I don't have a ton of cash availability. And I don't want to do the middle class trap that I know you guys are very passionate about. So I appreciate your passion. I have a second question because Mindy, had asked me, when does she stop contributing to her 403B? Because that is your question. Here's my other question for you. How much a year do you contribute to both your Roth IRA and your 403B? Do you know separately? That's a great question. I know I was contributing about 400, a paycheck

to my 403B. So that roughly, if that's twice a month, so maybe about 10,000. But, but, But I've since upped it because I have my security money, if you will, so I can now contribute more. So I've been contributing recently closer to $900 a month, sorry, a paycheck to my 403B. And some of it is post-taxed. Or, yeah, I think it's called post-taxed when I've already been taxed on the money. it's like a 403B Roth if that resonates. And then I contribute, I max out my Roth IRA. So 7,000 a year for 2024, 2025.

Yes. We have to take one final ad break. We'll be back with more from Kat after this. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact.

Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season

and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code, pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need.

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They never sell your data. And all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. Thanks for sticking with us. I did some calculations for you because this is a really difficult. question of when to stop contributing to your retirement accounts and instead move towards your brokerage accounts because you can use your retirement accounts you can only use after a certain

time without penalty. And you know it's a 10% penalty. Sometimes it's worth it to take the money out. I know some bloggers have done some blogs about that and it's kind of a wash sometimes. So the other one is moving money into your brokerage account so you can use that money now and then rely on your retirement accounts later. So let's just say, I'm going to say in 14 years, you continue to use your Roth IRA as, you know, you fund all $7,000 into it. I'm sure it'll go up over time for the amount you can do it per year. But in 14 years, you're going to have $217,000 in it. At that point, you might say, I am never going to contribute another dime to it because, you know, you're no longer employed.

You maybe don't have earned income, so you can't. And you're just going to let it sit there for the next 20. 20 years, so then you're 65 years old when you'll actually start pulling in, but, you know, your Roth out, you'll have $1 million. So we know with the 4% rule, you're going to have $40,000 a year at 65 just from your Roth IRA or not including your 403B. So with that and your 403B, you will have for sure hit your fine numbers at 65, right? I mean, I mean, way over in that moment or in that time, because, well, I'm going to do the same calculation, let's just say, with that lower amount

$10,000 a year for your 403B, at 65, you're going to have $1.1 million. So essentially, you'll have $80,000 a year from those two accounts alone, not including a possible pension or any Social Security work from work you do outside of teaching in the future. If that's what you decide to do, take on some sort of side job. So when we're thinking about that, it might mean you're over contributing if you continue to put money into it over the next. 14 years and max those out. I can't say when you can stop, you know, contributing to your 403B.

I think it would be great for you some more homework to start doing some calculations to see what makes you feel comfortable to have at 65. And then that will show you when do you stop contributing to those accounts in the next, you know, within the next 14 years and start moving towards a brokerage account. Mindy, do you have thoughts on that? I love this. I want to give a little bit more context to what you're saying. The rule of 72 is where Amberley got these numbers from. Essentially, the rule of 72 says that your investments at an 8% return will double every seven or eight years. So she has taken your numbers and just extrapolated that out. It is down and dirty math. It is absolutely not guaranteed. Past performance is not indicative of future gains.

but it's a great way to look at what your net worth will be in the future. And that's stopping after a certain amount of time with your contributions. She made mention that you can't contribute to a Roth IRA if you don't have earned income. You have a Roth 403B, which makes my heart sing because all the Roth plans help you avoid the middle class trap. You can always access your contributions in a Roth IRA. You can't access the gain. You can at age, is it 55 or 59 and a half?

59 and a half. So then you can start accessing the gains. You're a teacher. I'm wondering if you have access to a 457 plan. I don't even know what that is. That is another homework assignment for you to talk to your HR person about and just ask them, do we have a 457 plan? The 457 is a special plan essentially for government,

employees like teachers who are where you can put the current 401K 403B contribution limits into your 403B and those same current ones into your 457 plan. So if you've, if the limit is 23,000, you can put 23 into your 457 and an additional 23 into your 403B for a grand total of 46,000. But wait, there's more. once you no longer work for that company, you can start accessing your 457 accounts with no penalties. If they're a traditional 457, then you have to pay taxes on the money that you're pulling out. But if they're a Roth 457, you've already paid the taxes.

You can just start pulling that money out. So with a partner who is perhaps able to help support you while you're, you're putting money into these 457 plans or just look at you making $90,000 a year and your expenses aren't that high. Maybe you could max out both or maybe you stop contributing to the 403B in favor of the 457 because when it comes time to pull money out on the 403B you'll have to pay penalties, but on the 457 you won't. So that's another homework assignment for you.

Do you have a 457 and do you have a Roth 457? Okay. Got it. Wrote down my homework. Yes, teachers. Appreciate it. I love it. And you also want to know what your pension amount would be if you retire at 45.

Because I do think that you would get something. You definitely don't get your full pension. But even if it's half of what you would get at 55, that's still a couple thousand dollars. And who doesn't like a couple of thousand dollars a month? I'll take it. Yeah, exactly. Can I ask a question? Absolutely.

This is your show. I appreciate it. I love education. It's just great. And I promise you what you guys tell me here, I am telling my students too. So they get a science research and financial freedom education at the same time for me. They know I like getting off track sometimes. So this is good. I was wondering if the 457, does a 457 have tax benefits also? I guess that's the point of a 457 rate and that would be why it's better than a brokerage account. So it's not better than a brokerage account. It's different than a brokerage account. A traditional 457 is just like a traditional 403B or a traditional 401k in that you are reducing your taxable income by contributing to it.

The Roth 457 plan doesn't have the tax benefits. You're not reducing your taxable income, but you're paying tax now, putting it in the account, it grows tax-free. And it's the one account that you can access when you separate from service from that company without having to hit an age limit or an age threshold. Okay. That makes sense. and the fact that Amber Lee you said I would have about $2 million between my 403B and my Roth IRA.

Is that with me still contributing the same amount every year until I hit 45? Or is that just from my current holdings? Great question. What I calculated was you are doing your Roth. IRA and maxing out at $7,000 a year with an 8% interest for the next 14 years. Then you are doing zero contributions for the next 20 to get you to 65, though we can just do 59 and a half, so 60 years old. So 15 years instead of 20, which is a different number, of course.

And you can, so that's how we got to that calculation, right? Same thing with your 403B. It's saying $10,000 a year. I'm not using that $900 a month every two weeks figure. I'm using the $400-ish. So saying you're contributing about $10,000 a year for the next 14 years. And then at 14 years, that sum is never going to get contributed to again with an 8% interest rate. Okay, got it.

Your rate of return may be different based on the government plans that you have to choose from. It just might not be the same as you have. Like if you've got a fidelity account with your IRA, you can choose from any. anything, right, to invest in. But with government plans, I know sometimes they only have you limited selection for what you can invest in. And so therefore, your rate of return may be different than the general stock market, depending on what you can invest in.

I don't know enough about government plans since I don't have one. I've just talked to a lot of government friends. And they have mentioned that sometimes their choices aren't as robust as the general market. I see. Yes. We have access to Vanguard. And so I am investing in like the general markets, like the V-TSAX.

Thank you to the book. Oh, my goodness. What's the name of the book that everyone talks about? The Simple Path to Wealth by J.L. Collins. Yep, the Simple Path to Well. Thank you, Mindy. And I was like, oh, that's easy. I can just do that.

I like simple and easy because I have a very busy. life and I want to give all the time that I do have to my students. So thank you for the simplicity. Perfect. Then using a 7 or 8% rate of return will be perfect. I think I misspoke earlier in the episode. The rule of 72, assuming a 7% interest rate, will double approximately every 10 years using an 8% interest, I'm sorry, 8% rate of return, a 7% rate of return is approximately every 10 years. An 8% rate of return is approximately every 9 years. And a 9% of return is your money will double approximately every eight years. And then if you get a whopping 10%, which is awesome, it will take approximately seven years to

double. So it's just, it's a great way to think about your future money. If we are in a crazy stock market where we had, I think one year we had a 22% rate of return, oops, I only hit one too. It'll double every three years. Now, we're not going to hit three years of 22% returns. That would be super awesome, but that's not a realistic number to think about. However, an 8 or a 9% rate of return is absolutely doable.

So I like to do 8% and do every 9 years. that's a great way to think about it because if it's higher, great. You might have like that could be an average. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. One other question you had for us is should I sell the stocks that I have that are in four specific stocks that have not been doing well?

What is your reason for holding onto them? The reason I'm holding onto them is because I know you're not supposed to sell when low, you know? But I don't know anything other than that. So I don't know when it would then make sense to sell because I don't know what's low and what's not low other than when I went in. So I guess that would be what I would like it to get back to be at minimum. What if it never does? What if this is the highest it's ever going to be?

Do you want to own these stocks now? No. I think they make me feel uncomfortable because I don't, it's still, it's a good amount of my money that I have accessible because I don't have a lot of money accessible, if you will. Like I have the 60K overall in my savings for my 403B in Roth and I have some savings in cash. but having like $13,000 in these stocks is that's not that's like maybe about 13% of my money so it's not nothing you know maybe if I had a much bigger net worth I'd be like yeah it's fine I'll just play with it but I think because it's a fairly sizable part of my wealth maybe I should be doing something with it in order to reach my goals but I also don't know because I don't want

be silly and sell one low because that's like rule number one right i don't know knowing what i know about these stocks if i was in your position i would sell them they are 13 000 you have a 14 year timeline to reach financial independence and you don't want to own these stocks i would personally sell you uh is this a this is not a taxable event because you have lost money on these stocks correct they were you bought them higher correct so you're it's you're not going to be owing taxes on this this is a time to maybe chat with somebody who is a tax professional who can look at this and say hey this would be a great time to sell because you have some gains that you are going to put this up against but you don't want to own this these stocks anymore than don't own these stocks anymore

Amberley what do you think one thing I always ask people whenever they're feeling fomo or some sort of missing out on individual stocks. My first question is, Kat, did you have a plan on when to sell these stocks when you bought them? No. Great. So you went in blind, didn't have a plan for what number it would hit to sell or what number it hit of losing to sell. So therefore, you didn't, like, no plan means you're running blind. And that's a really anxious and scary place to be when it comes to individual stocks. So what I would say, as Mindy asked, if you were offered these stocks today, would you go buy them? No. All right. We got a lot of nose here. So I think that probably means sell it, take the loss. It doesn't mean you're a failure. It doesn't mean anything, actually.

It means that you tried something. You decided it wasn't good. You got out before it got even lower or maybe even higher. It doesn't really matter. And instead, you're going to put your money to work somewhere else. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, thanks. I love that. Okay, when I was reading off your numbers, I said, oh, you have $42,000 in cash. I'm going to talk about that again. And this is me talking about it. Why is this money sitting in cash? Yes, I have $25,000. It's actually in a CD. It might be a little bit higher right now because of the interest that's earned. Maybe it's like 26 or 27. So I can't. actually touch that for another like five months or something. And then I have the loan that I said for $14,000 and I have about $14,000 or $15,000 in a high interest savings account that I'm just using to pay off the loan. So like when I took out this loan, I knew I had the money for it, but I figured I could just make a little bit of interest and that would make sense. So I might as well just take out a loan because it was zero interest.

And I check that it gets paid every month because I do not want the 25% interest slapped on to. And the like minimum payment, it's wild to me that, you know, they show you the minimum payment. It's like, I don't know, a few hundred dollars. But then you'll be paying it for like the rest of your life. So I'm like, yes, I do not want to keep this, but might as well get another. thousand to $2,000 off from just having it in a high-yield savings account. Perfect. I love that answer because it shows you've been thinking about it.

You're not just doing something that you heard somebody say this one time. I love these conscious choices based on education and thinking things through. The 25,000 is CD that you can't touch for five months. Do you have plans for that? I do and I don't. I don't plan to spend it on anything specific, but because I own a home that was built in 1911, there's just always something and it often is quite expensive. I will say this is a brag moment. I built my own fence because they were asking for like $15,000 and I was like, I am not paying $15,000. So I learned how to do that. I built my own couch. I learned how to do that. I learned how to do that. So I, you know, I try to get around not spending money where I don't have to, but like the piping system, our plumbing is not great. So I might have to spend some money on that.

But I'm hoping I won't need like a new car or anything for at least another 15, 20 years. If I'm like my mom, my car will last like another. My mom's car is now almost like 30 years old, which is wild. Yeah, no notes on that for me. I think, you know, 25,000 is essentially a six-month, you know, buffer for you, for an emergency fund. You can also use it towards your house, as you're saying. So I probably keep something around there and having it in a CD or some sort of high-yield savings account is exactly where that should be. Whatever makes you feel comfortable in regards to a number of months for an emergency

fund. And you have a partner as well, so that's really nice, too, because you can always rely on them a little bit if you needed something or something happened to your job. I have a question. Are you thinking of upping your income in any way by increasing tutoring hours, or are you looking to live more right now? I will say my actions might be contrary to how I feel because I'm constantly taking on new tutoring positions. I think part of that is it's so easy, like science is high in demand and I'm good at what I do. At least I would like to think I am. But that being said, I feel like between what I, my position for work is like very demanding and tutoring on the weekend. And I usually like do homework and prep before it and stuff that takes a lot of my time.

so I would like to say I would lower tutoring or I should do that for my mental health and sanity, which would probably make it that I wouldn't have to retire early. Yeah, I'm so focused on the financial freedom. I know the value now of compounding interest thanks to you guys. So I'm like, yes, let's just get there. I want that freedom feeling. but I also hear you guys talk about all the time that it's the journey and not just this end number and it's like really hard for me to absorb that when I feel like I have no free time

and I'm like just working for other people but I know I'm part of my own problem so yeah completely understand as someone who loves to be busy I get that um so it sounds like from from what I'm hearing is that maybe increasing your income isn't as necessary based on all the numbers that you have. It also might not be best based on your mental health. And instead, it might be really great for you to do those calculations we were saying. So you can see what time to stop contributing to your retirement accounts. And you can maybe even increase your spending just a little bit now. If you are looking at what you're putting into an actual broker, account or a 557, as Mindy had said, so you can access that money at 45. But you might even have a little

wiggle room to go and do more fun things as you're saying you might want to do. What do you think, Mindy? I think that we, Carl and I did it completely wrong. We plowed every dime we could into our retirement savings, into our brokerage accounts. We were busy, busy, busy all the time. We do the live in flipping. So we would go before kids, we would go to work, work eight hours. In some cases, we were driving an hour each way to, to and from work, and then come home and work another five hours on the house, go to bed, get up and do it all again. We didn't enjoy our life. And that is one of my biggest regrets because now I'm sitting on a nice FI number that is more than I need and I could have been having so much more fun.

Enjoy the journey because if it takes you, let's say that you can crank it out and get there by age 45 or you can pull back just a touch, keep all the things that you love that mean something to you and now you have to retire at 46. That's a way better life. So I would encourage you to run your numbers, look at the different options that you. You personally have. I love the Roth account because you're paying taxes now and it's growing tax-free. You pull it out tax-free.

Whenever you decide to pull it out, the Roth IRA, you can always pull out the contributions. I just, I love the freedom that it gives you and the flexibility. And what was that quote again? I realized what I really want is time freedom more than anything else. So I would just focus on what does that time freedom look like to you? If you could get away from the 40 hours of teaching or 38 hours of teaching per week, but then you could bring back tutoring for 10 hours a week and that covered your expenses, maybe that's a great tradeoff or maybe that doesn't quite cover your expenses so you need to

figure out another way to do it. Have you ever thought of making a science YouTube channel? Fun with cat. Science, fun with cat. There's so many ways to make money online. If you love talking about science, talk about science. I'm, you know, probably not going to watch your show, but I will send my kids there. But I think you've got a great foundation.

You've got an amazing foundation for somebody who's 30 years old. You've got a great foundation. And I don't see your goal of 45 or 45-ish to be something that's like, oh, my goodness, that's never going to happen. I can see that as absolutely happening. Maybe it doesn't happen at 45. Maybe it happens at 46 or 47. That's still way lower than 65.

So you have all that time to go and enjoy your life with no job. Thank you for spending so much time chatting with me today and for the resources. I think definitely playing with the numbers will be fun. And it's not about like even all of this for me. It's not about exactly like stopping working at 45. Like I can't even envision myself not doing it. anything as I feel like a lot of people in the fire community, not everyone, but a lot of people kind of don't exactly stop everything when they do fire. I think I'll always be doing something.

So I would probably have more of a barista fire if not for just, you know, being engaged with my brain. And, you know, too much time by myself, I think I would lose my mind if I'm being honest. But yeah, it's cool to know kind of where I'm out with things and what might be possible. And I'm definitely nowhere near having $425,000 invested. So, but I hear you on saying that, you know, what I want in life is more time. And I'm already choosing not to do that for myself. So maybe if I change that, it would just make things more enjoyable. So if you're thinking about, oh, I'm not sure what I would do in retirement, start a bucket list.

Well, Kat, any other questions for us? I think you guys answered all my questions. Thank you so much for your time and thoughts. And this was so fun. I was so excited to meet you. And you're here. You're real people. It's great.

All right. Kat, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your numbers with us. And we will talk to you soon. All right, Amberly, that was a super fun episode with Kat. What did you think of the show? Well, she's super smart and is already thinking about her future. And I just love that she's not just like thinking about her future, but she's thinking about her past and what her parents were like and how she's like today. And like you mentioned in the episode, what she wants to do with her life at 45, she should start doing today. And I think that she's in such a great position to start funneling money towards her future, but also like really focusing on maybe doing some fun things. What do you think? one of the best things that she is doing is keeping her expenses low. And that allows her so much

opportunity. She's got the opportunity to contribute to these other accounts. She's got the opportunity to max out a Roth IRA, which I hope that she does. She's got the opportunity to add in a little bit of fun spending because the delta between what she's spending on her life and what she's making is so vast. So, you know, I want to encourage people. to keep everything in that means something to them. If you've got, you know, you want to have breakfast every Monday with your daughter, then have breakfast every Monday with your daughter, like breakfast's out. If you want to have a date every Friday night with your partner, then have a date every Friday night with your partner. Don't cut things out in the name of I want to get to FI as fast as possible

because let me tell you, I did and it's not all that fun. The journey kind of stinks. So don't do it like me, be like Amberly, be like Cat Will Be Soon, and keep the fun stuff in your life. My only concern for her is this pension. You know, we don't know enough about pensions to give all that much information for her, but retiring at 45 when, you know, a pension is 50% at 55, I'm really curious what that's going to look like for her. And she'll be taken care of with, you know, the investing that she's doing. I'm just so curious. I hope she gets back to us about what that actually is going to look like for her. If she were, to leave work at 45. And hopefully all that time and energy she's spent, you know, contributing

towards it does give her some sort of payback. Yes, I hope it does. She has, you know, 14 years to figure it out. And perhaps in 14 years she decides, you know what, it is worth it for me to stay an extra 10 years and get that much more in my pension. Maybe she has lost all of these things in her life that are making her feel so pressured with her time. And now she truly enjoys only teaching or teaching and tutoring and, you know, she's lost other things and we'll continue on. That's what's so great about the beginning of the FI journey. You have a big horizon. I would encourage her to continue to revisit her numbers, either quarterly or annually, just to see where she is on track. I would also encourage her and anybody else listening not to get too

bogged down with dips. We are in a period of of economic uncertainty right now. The stock market is reacting rather volatily up down, up down. It's kind of a roller coaster. So if that gives you a lot of nerves, take a step back and don't look for a while. You know, look again in a month. Look again at the end of next quarter. But keep an eye on your numbers to see where you're going.

Watch how they are progressing and how you like your life. If you don't like your life and your numbers keep going up, make some changes. I agree with that completely. Thanks, Mindy. That's a really great estimation. All right, Amberle, should we get out of here? Let's do it. Bye-bye.

All right, that wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I truly love these conversations with people who have retired before it was cool, before anybody wrote a blog post about it. And I love Diana's story. Thank you so much for joining me. My name is Mindy Jensen, saying out I zoom, bloom.