BiggerPockets Money Podcast - If We Started FIRE Over in 2025, Here's Exactly What We'd Do

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

What would you do differently if you could start your FIRE journey over today? Back in 2013, Scott was fresh out of college house hacking his way to financial independence, while Mindy and her husband were deep into their FIRE journey documenting it all on their blog. Fast forward to 2025—both are financially independent, but if they were starting from scratch today, they'd make some serious changes. Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast! In this episode, Scott and Mindy reveal what they'd do differently starting their FI journey in 2025. The fundamentals still work—frugality, saving, investing—but the tactical strategies? Those have evolved dramatically. In this episode, we cover: The real estate strategies Scott would prioritize in today's market Stock investments and portfolio allocation for 2025 How AI and technology are reshaping the path to FI The biggest regrets—including times they wish they'd spent MORE What still works from 2013 vs. what's completely outdated Lifestyle changes they'd make earlier in the journey Updated timelines and expectations for achieving FIRE today Whether you're just starting out or already on track to financial independence, this episode gives you a fresh roadmap for building wealth in today's world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hindsight really is 2020. Today, Scott and I are going to look back at how we both would adjust our retirement planning if we had to start all over today, both at our current ages and if we were 23. Spoiler, we might have done things a little differently. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my probably would change some things co-host, Scott Trench. Thanks, Minnie. I look forward to looking back today here on Bigger Pockets Money podcast with you. I'm super excited about this episode. This is just a fun kind of what-if scenario.

I think there will be a couple of what-ifs, like, what was our journey like? Will we have changed anything in our journeys? And then how would we approach it if we were starting over today? And I think that'll be a fun discussion here. So, Mindy, can you give us the quick 60-second overview, perhaps, of your journey to fire for folks who may not be familiar with it? So my husband and I started investing in the late 90s, basically because we're saving for retirement. He worked in tech, so our portfolio has always been tech heavy, like up-and-coming tech-heavy stocks. We were also living flipping.

So that's when you move into a house that is unattractive and you make it really beautiful and updated and then you sell it. You have to live there for two of the last five years in order to pay $0 in capital gains taxes. So that is also what we did. I became a real estate agent in 2014 to help us find these properties. I had no intention of being a real estate agent. Then I started helping friends and then I started helping friends of friends. And real estate agents make a lot of money.

This is a really great and fun for me way to generate a lot of income. So as Carl left his job, we weren't tapping into our retirement funds because I had the real estate agent job that was generating income, as well as finding a dream job at this little tiny company called BiggerPockets.com. Scott, how did you get to find? I love it. If I would summarize what you just said there about your journey, there's a frugality component for a long time. There's a handiness in working on live-in flips, which is a substantial boosted

income over and over and over and over again that is very tax-advantaged. There's a good, maybe not incredible top 1% household income from Carl's tech career. And then right as he was leaving his job, or in that period, there was a little bit of overlap, but as he left his job, you had the job at Bigger Pockets and this agent income that was more than enough to support your family. And that allowed this aggressively invested, well-positioned tech portfolio to just balloon to way past your fire number. And that's awesome, right? Is that the story in a nutshell, you think, for you? It is, except I wouldn't characterize it as top 1% income.

I would characterize it as top 10% income. Yeah, yeah. It was not top 1% income. But it was good, but not incredible elite income that drove your journey to fire. It was these other moves in combination with enough. and fidelity. Yes. For me, to answer your question, you know, I had everything go right, right? I graduated from college in 2013, and I had three grand or whatever cash remaining after a trip to Europe, no debt. Very fortunate. And I started my career and the playbook was handed to me. You said that there wasn't all

those people talking about this. Well, they were by 2013. Mr. Money Mustache outlined everything you needed to do to retire early. And I just had the privilege of learning all of that and learning from bigger pockets about real estate. So I avoided making any really large mistakes with money. I didn't spend aggressively and I was able to accumulate about $20,000 in that first year. I bought a house hack. The market's obviously done really great over it. I mean, you take the last 10, 11 years in context for that. I bought multiple properties over time. I joined a startup at bigger pockets, which was a rocket ship and won, you know, the lottery as we talked about briefly earlier. and I had the opportunity to just really make pretty good, I think, overall decisions on the spending front, on the investing front.

Most of my wealth was invested in stocks and real estate and join a business that had incredible opportunity for my career associated with it. So I had all these levers we talk about spending less, earning more, investing, and creating assets. I just got a wonderful 10-year journey of maximizing my learning and opportunity in all of those areas, basically. And that made it relatively speaking easy and straightforward for me to achieve fire over that period of time. Scott, what I'm hearing you say is you took action. You didn't just sit around. You didn't spend every dime that came into your pocket. You were looking for a different way.

You found the different way. And then you followed the different way. I think that last point is a point that we cannot beat home enough. You have to take action. It's one thing to find Mr. Money Mustache, but it's quite another to actually do. do the things necessary to make it to early retirement. I certainly will get myself credit for acting on a lot of these things. And then thinking about them, obsessing over them learning and trying to optimize or

improve in all these areas and stay in tune with stuff. But I also did have the fortune of just like, oh, here's the obviously correct playbook. And then the wherewithal to realize, yes, that is obviously correct. I'm going to do that. I've definitely made mistakes along the way. We'll talk about those. But none of them have been major blunders at a strategic level that have really meaningfully blocked or delayed.

my journey to fire. Okay, Scott, so that is how you got there starting at age 23. Let's pretend that all of your wealth has been wiped out or you never had any to begin with. And now here you are at age 35. What would you do different? Yeah, and I think context matters, right? Because I was single in 35. I'd repeat a lot of the same things in the same way, right? I know some folks who, for example, have been divorced and are starting over. And there's a lot of parallels between that journey and the journey I could take as a 23-year-old at that point in time. But as a married man with two children right now, I would say I would not be as aggressive about the pursuit of fire, right? There's things that are more important than the pursuit of fire. And I would recognize

that living in a more safe or more, you know, welcoming or more nurturing environment where family memories are going to be made than a house hack in the up-and-coming part of town would probably be higher in the list. I'd probably be more cautious to leave a career. I'd be more dependent, I guess, or more willing to depend on the benefits that come with a career. I'd be more focused on that. And so I think I think there'd be less of an entrepreneurial itch and a little bit more. And I think I would just extend the timeline. I think I would still make frugal decisions on the car purchase. I'd look for a live-in flip, maybe something light or those types of opportunities or maybe like a higher-end house hack. Certainly would consider those. We did, of course, live in one of

my duplexes just like that for a year before moving into our permanent home here down in the suburbs. So I think I would do some of those things. And I think I would still follow most of the other playbook items, like the order of operations. But I wouldn't be saying, oh, I'm starting from scratch with maybe a hundred, 135,000 household income, perhaps situation. I'm starting from that situation. I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm going to fire in 10 years in that situation. I'd be like, the timeline's going to be a little longer if I'm starting from scratch. And I'm going to have to really, you know, keep my core expenses low, but also balance the need to take that income and provide a good quality of life now in combination with you're trying to get ahead for more

traditional retirement. So I'd be aiming for something more in my late 50s than my 40s if I was starting over at 35 and trying to build wealth. Bindi, what would you do if you were starting over today here at your current age and with your current family dynamic? So my age, I am 53. My family dynamic is my oldest daughter is in college and my youngest daughter is in high school. With our family dynamic, I am paying for my oldest. daughter's college degree. And if I was starting out at 53 with essentially a $0 net worth, I would not be paying for her college. I would have her get student loans that hopefully I could help her pay for later. But right now, I would be focusing on getting myself to retirement age,

traditional retirement age with enough money to retire or close to it. That's 12 years from now, is traditional retirement age for me. So I would be getting my real estate license. I've had my license for 13 years now. I would, if I wasn't already a agent, I would get a license. And I would be doing everything I possibly could to find new clients to help buy and sell real estate. My real estate partner, Libby, Earthman, has a really unique way to approach open houses that generates a lot of leads for her. I would also emulate that because without the unfair advantage that I have of being a podcast host and my husband has a blog, you know, I live in Longmont, Colorado and a lot of fire people want to move to Longmont, Colorado. I get a lot of leads that way. But if I didn't have that, I would go and listen to

episode 64 of the Agent Goldmine podcast and see how my friend Libby does her open houses because she has generated so many leads from her open house strategy that she now can't take my extra leads. So now I have to look for another partner. But getting a real estate license, I think, would be key to generating extra income. There's a lot of different side hustles that people can do. I think real estate agent is an excellent side hustle or even could be your full-time job if you are generating enough money from it. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like

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Right, welcome back to the show. I think that what's interesting there is, you know, what I did is I went all out. according to on financial independence when i was 23 and what i'm hearing you say is you would do the same at 53 and i think that that's right we talked about barb this fictional uh persona we created a while back called broke at 50 on an episode called broke at 50 retired at 60 you know barb is broke at 53 and starting over what do you do well now that it's a context has again changed and now there's a very real risk of not being able to live a comfortable retirement. And that fear, I think, would change everything about what I just said and make me want to go all out to build wealth and really build a strong

fortified financial position in whatever capacity I could. And then I'd be forced to be very frugal once again. And it'd be forced to look for all these entrepreneurial opportunities to make more money, perhaps as an agent, perhaps as some other sales role. And it'd be forced to feel like consider serial house tax and real estate. And my family's comfort, I think, would then come second again because you're not thinking more time and you know you have less time right and i would i would not want to be put myself in a position where my adult children would then maybe potentially have to support me later in life i'd want to take care of that now and and that would be worth the trade off of the less stability or less you know consistency in that in that environment that's how to imagine

things are is that what you're saying to a certain degree here mindy with this that's exactly what i'm saying and the reason is scott look at your single self and my current self you were single instead of married, but you didn't have any kids. I have a daughter in college in California, so she doesn't live in my house. I have another daughter who can drive herself, who honestly doesn't want to hang out with mom because I'm not cool anymore. So while I would prioritize still connecting with her, I'll have a lot of free time to do things to generate side income and, you know, the hustle, because she's out with her friends. You as a married 30, 35-year-old father of two small children have a very different family dynamic than I do right now.

So, you know, you want to prioritize spending time with your two-year-old and not quite one-year-old. And that's great. When I was 35, I also did that. But now that essentially my kids are almost out of the house or one of them is out of the house, I have a lot more free time to do this hustle. I don't think I would house hack, but the live and flip I might continue to do. I think the times to pull all those levers and go really hardcore are when you're young and single. And then when you're, you know, maybe a little older in the kids, you're starting to get

close to that empty nestry, even if you're not quite there yet? Is there a way for your kid to go to the same high school at least? And for you to house hack or find those opportunities to build wealth in every lever you possibly can to get ahead if you're, you know, broke and starting over. Like that's the context we have here. Now, there's a whole sliding scale here. If you're close to fire and you're, you know, 33 and you have a little one like, finish to play and go do it, right? If it's a year or two on there. But if it's going to be a real consequence to your family for a very prolonged period of time to defer the life you really want,

just to retire a few years earlier, maybe I wouldn't make those tradeoffs. I think that's the nuance that's come into the discussion for me in the last 10 years. When I wrote Set for Life, for example, the first time, I had no room for that nuance at all, right? Because I was right in 26 at that point in time. And when I revised it a few years later, years later when I was 30, 31, I was able to put that nuance back in to the revision of it, because there is that nuance. But I do stand by and think that it's so valuable to go all out in those first years out of college in particular, because college and the lifestyle you want when you're like in your early 20s is not that expensive. As long as you don't just assume

this overhead of the car and the fancy apartment or the house, I mean, you can just have all the the fun and build all the wealth. Just don't make those big mistakes and go all out for those couple years, you're going all out anyways at your career, almost certainly in regardless which direction you choose. So why not do it in a way that sets you up to become financially independent? Because it's so great to get to that point in your 30s if you choose to and when you start a family. I think going all out when your family dynamic allows for it is going to be the difference between really, really generating that wealth and that income or kind of just bumping along. What would you do if you're starting over at 23? So not this time.

you're not 53, you're starting over today here in 2025. Okay, if I was 23 and starting over in 2025, I would, again, get my real estate license because there is just so many opportunities available to generate a lot of income as a real estate agent. I would invest in the stock market and I would create the habit of investing in the stock market starting today. I only have five extra dollars this month, I'm going to throw that in the stock market. I only have 25 extra next month. I'm going to throw that in the stock market. And then I'm going to look for side hustles that I can do to generate more income that I can put towards my retirement. I want to be able to max out my Roth IRA. I want to be able to max out my HSA. I want to be able to max out my 401k,

assuming that I have a traditional job that provides me with a 401k. If I don't, then I'm going to look to the Roth IRA for that opportunity. But also, if I can generate some self-employment income, I have the opportunity to contribute to a solo 401K. And that opens up even more amounts of money that I can contribute to my retirement accounts. I'm going to look at investing in after-tax stocks so that I can generate. ways to create income after I retire that are outside of my traditional retirement accounts so that I'm not falling victim to the middle class trap that I learned about on this podcast called Bigger Pockets

Money. How about you, Scott? Today, 2025, you are blessed with only being 23 years old. What would you do? I'm in agreement with you on every level. I'll just frame it differently at the strategic lens. And I'd say the next 30 years is going to result in something really interesting. And I think, for some people, very wonderful outcome here, right? AI is, there's every reason to believe that AI is going to increase crop yields per, you know, per acre. It's going to make efficiencies come down and distributing scarce resources and goods so that real costs fall over time on there. And I think that it's going to enable this fire community. I think that if anything, the stakes are so much higher to get on the other side of the capitalism equation early in life than they ever have been,

because the bifurcation between the life you're going to have at 30, 35, if you build wealth and participate in the growth of the economy is going to be so much greater, so incredibly bifurcated from the people who don't focus on those skill sets and kind of spend every dollar they have and don't really see their careers blossom. I think it's going to be so incredibly different that the stakes could not be higher. It's the difference between basically doing everything you want and have in the world as your oyster and not having a lot of options later in life and being kind of stuck and trapped into a place that's really hard to get out of treading water. I think it's the same situation that

I kind of has unfold in the last 10 years, but maybe with even a little bit higher stakes now. And so I think that the strategy is really keep those expenses low, invest in ways that will participate in that economy. I think there's every reason to believe that companies are going to grow over the next 10 to 20 years. And I would be having fear in a way I maybe didn't have or wasn't as acute when I was 23 back in 2014 around the valuations of the stock market. So I would be I might be even more inclined to really make that house hack a priority before those stock investments for the first year or two. I'd probably be saving that in cash and getting ready to do that. There's a little bit of market timing that I'll get poo-pooed on, but that would be probably how I'd be thinking about things in the current market.

At least you're not buying at the top of the real estate market in a lot of these metros. And I think that I would be really interested in entrepreneurship. I'd be thinking AI is a real threat to the types of work that used to be rewarded by 10 years of experience in a company. like, you know, doing financial analysis. That's going to be really hard. The guys who are already experienced the financial analysis are probably fine. But the new guys trying to get into it are going to have a really hard learning curve to get good enough where their skill set is more advanced than what an AI can produce.

And so I'd really be thinking about entrepreneurship and becoming a jack of all trades in all these different categories because those opportunities I think are going to move quickly. There's going to be a really big opportunity. You're going to make a lot of money really quickly if you're an entrepreneur skilled in AI in this area. And then it's going to close after six months or a year. And then the next one's going to open up and that's going to close. And I think that's the kind of skill set that I would be developing is how do I really get good at trying lots of experiments very quickly with this entrepreneurial hat on in order to get there?

So I think low expenses investing like we talked about and entrepreneurship all underscored by the sense of urgency about the stakes being very high for getting the other side of the capitalism equation and building a financially independent portfolio early in life. I like that, Scott. I like the urgency because I want to encourage. younger people to be focused on where they're putting their efforts instead of just letting life drag them along. In a more practical sense, I'll put it this way, right?

It's the playbook we've talked about. We talked about this for Joe million times, you know, for Barb. It's keep expenses low. Work your job and make sure that there's a baseline there. Don't depend on it. I wouldn't model out my career growth the same way I would 10 years ago. Maybe it'll be better, maybe it'll be worse. But I'd measure it in a much more volatile fashion, right?

Boom and bust for a lot of folks that are starting their careers now. And it's about keeping your expenses low and saving the booms if that comes to pass and making sure that your expenses are lower than even the really lean times in there. And I think that if you do that, there's a really good chance to become very, very wealthy, very, quickly if you play your cards right and look for those opportunities. So that's the kind of core underpinning of the playbook. And then house hacking always helps. That's a great, steady flow of income, keeps your high probability flow of income or lower

expenses. And then, of course, broad-based diversification across companies and participating in the growth of the economy? I think that we can't discount that too much, participating in the growth of the economy. Yeah, we're probably heading for a bit of a dip in the stock market, but overall, I have faith in the long-term viability of the American stock market and the American economy. So I would continue to invest in that. Mindy, what are some other things that you'd be thinking about if you're starting over and you're 23 right now in today's economy? What are some of the things that you'd be looking at or telling

yourself to explore as trends to bet on with your time and energy over the next 10 years. Ooh. Trens to bet on, you touched on it. It's got AI. So I would be looking at AI companies to invest in. And I would be looking for jobs that are AI proof. So I don't think that AI is going to be taking over health care in the foreseeable future. You need a doctor. You need a doctor. to take your information and process it. Yeah, you can throw it into AI, but right now AI has a lot of mistakes. Other jobs that can't be replicated by AI,

I think, again, the real estate agent, I keep coming back to this because I think it's really, really valid. Scott, what are some other jobs that are AI-proof? I don't think any job is going to be AI-proof or whatever. I think that people forget, you know, there's no more horse and buggy drivers, and that's a good thing, right? for the most part, right? Like those jobs got moved into other parts of the economy. And change is always disruptive. It's going to, there's going to be losers and it's going to be very acute and

very painful here. And I'm not trying to take away any of that pain that is going to be real when jobs are displaced by new technology. And opportunities emerge from that. And that's where my theme is the jack-of-all-trades mentality of using this new technology, looking for those opportunities and pioneering them and being ready to move and evolve very quickly, that is what's going to get rewarded over the next 10 years, over the attempt to master hard skills in one or two years, right? Two years of experience is not going to cut it in something like, you know, drafting HR policy or financial modeling.

15 years of experience might, right? That's different, right? That's something that's where real experience and real pain and wisdom and understanding long-term trends to bet on and what to prompt the AI with and challenge the assumptions and relying things is going to be in there. But the mechanics of building a spreadsheet, those are not going to be rewarded over time. The mechanics of being able to learn AI quickly enough to then help you master building a spreadsheet are. That's what I think is the difference from a nuanced perspective. I'll also challenge like you're talking about AI.

It's not going to replace doctor. AI has not replaced my doctor, but kind of was also replaced my doctor. Like I have this whole like document that I've built because I'm a true nerd. This is surprise no one. It's called my late 30s health and fitness protocol. I have my goals. I have my weightlifting regimen. I have my running regimen. I have my diet. I have my recovery.

I have my supplementation. I have my skin and health care routine. I've got my preventative screening and labs that I'm going to get and all that. And this is all developed through self-education and AI. And I post put it in there and ask it for tweaks. And sometimes it gives me right answers. Sometimes it gives me wrong answers, but it always gives me more things to research. And that's a really big benefit.

I don't know if I could go to the doctor and get something as helpful as that. Because it combines these goals of powerlifting and supplementation with best practices from a health care perspective. That's a real threat to a doctor or health care provider, I think. Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, oh, do I have strep throat? Am I having a heart attack right now? Your AI can be like, okay, yes, you are. What is AI going to do about it?

I stubbed my toe really badly last week, like two weeks ago. Yeah. And like it was black and blue. I'm not laughing that you stubbed your toe. I'm laughing that you're comparing a stuffed toe to heart attack. So I took a picture of my toe and I sent it to Grock, right? The AI. And Virginia made fun of me. You know, this is. And I also sent it to my doctor. And they both told me the same thing. That's pretty black and blue. That's not looking good. But I don't think it's broken. Come back in two weeks. See what I was feeling. Philifies now. So like, like, I don't know. You know, that's a tough. Like, this is all real like what's going on with it. And it's, it's, it, I think that there's a fear and apprehension for the unknown.

And I think there also should be really big excitement. Somebody's going to win on that. And it's going to be the 23 year old who is always looking for the opportunities to get better with it, learn from it and master it. I submit investment ideas to the AI all the time to beat them up before I talked about them with other humans because that gets me my most stupid mistakes out of the way quickly. What about skilled trade, Scott? We're talking about electricians, plumbers, roofers, HVAC technicians.

Yeah, that I think is safer, relatively speaking, at least for longer until, you know, Elon Musk builds his one million robots that he's promised with his trillion dollar pay package. So I think that that's there. But one of the things that's been bugging me about the trades is if you asked me two or three years ago, what's that going to look like? I would have said it's going to be a big boom for the next two or three years. They're going to make a killing. It's going to look like the best thing in the world because you had so much construction going on. We just delivered record, new supply of multifamily. there were cranes everywhere two or three years ago. And now that is stopping and slowing. And so I would

have said, you know, when that slows, what's going to happen to all these people, right? That's the nature of some of these industries is they boom and you can't hire a worker. You cannot get a contractor. And then that slows and contracts. And then what do these people do? They're going to fizzle out. It's actually a huge problem in the construction industry in a general sense because it's very hard to find very long-tenured construction workers who have been buildings because the developers, because the developers build and they bust and then these other these people stop working in those trades because they want something more stable and there's no like very few really skilled contract supervisors you know contractor supervisors who can build these big these large projects so that's actually a well-known

problem in space but what's weird is this year that hasn't been happening right as these projects have slowed you're not finding those costs in labor savings to be there I mean I'm getting mixed bag from local developers in Denver when I talk to them but you're not really seeing that in the same way. And I think a big piece of that has to do with the changes in immigration policy at the national level that have been maybe, you know, impacting the pool of construction labor to a certain degree. So I think that's a real risk in those trades that that's going to happen is there's a boom and bus cycle that you're subject to that's not really related to AI. So I don't love it. Like I think there's a lot of, oh, just go to go to the trade school and

do that. And that's great. That was great two years ago. It seemed awesome. But I'm not sure if I really ever fully bought into that mentality. I think that the college education is still king for me. And it's just the degree matters more than the school from what we talked about with Preston Cooper. So, you know, I'm not really, oh, go get into the trades as much as some people are. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going. And more importantly,

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Thanks for seeking with us. Now let's jump back in. Okay, Scott, I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to throw back all the way to to episode 44 of the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast where we talked to Tinian Crawford, who is an electrician. He has since left his university job and gone out on his own. He is busier than he's ever been, has taken on more employees. And he told us about how he got his associates degree, which is a two-year, traditionally a two-year college degree, in just six short years. College was not the path for him. And there's a lot of people for whom college is not the path. These trades are an excellent

alternative to going to college when you know that's not your jam and still being able to make a lot of money. And I believe they are AI proof. I am currently building a house. Carl and I have been looking for builders for a year. And we finally found an amazing company. And the framer is astonishing. He's taking our plans and combining them with his real world experience and making us a beautiful house. And every day would go over there and he'll be like, oh yeah, the plans for this wall weren't perfect. It was like an inch and a half short. But that happens all the time. I knew that. So I just adjusted and now, you know, the wall is not an inch and a half short. Or I did this or I did that. And Lou, you're amazing. He is, he's so good at what he does. And I don't think that's going to be remedied by AI.

I think it's awesome to just do this show with you because of the differences between us and our experience set. And I think, you know, reflecting on your journey, you went to school, you said this many times, for fashion design, right? And do not believe that was a high ROI choice. It did not lead to good opportunities directly from that. I studied economics, corporate strategy, and finance at Vanderbilt, right? And no question did that set me up for a good set of opportunities, a large number of potential job opportunities, and made me more attractive candidate to Josh Dorkin when I joined bigger pockets initially and provided, you know, a lot of background knowledge that was helpful. Also a good network of people. Like my business partner on my rentals went to Vanderbilt with me, right? And he's one of my best friends. And like that's a, that's an advantage there that I wouldn't have had if I had gone to school for fashion design, right? And I think that that, like, there's almost no way that, that it could have gone a different way. But, but, you know, there's almost no way you go to, you know, a good skate school or a good private school, like a Vanderbilt or, you know, University of Maryland in there and study one of these professions and don't have some kind of subset of better opportunities if you go after them than going into trade school, I think to a large degree.

Not to say that trade school is bad. I just think, and I get that it's not, that college is not always jam, like you said. I'm not sold on the college is dead yet. I'm sold on college is an ROI-based decision. And for the people who it is for, it can be very high ROI and the best choice by far if they apply themselves and then pursue the opportunities that come from it and actually get a high ROI degree. Absolutely agree with that. I was not saying the college is dead. I do not believe the college is dead. I just, I come from the time period where we told everybody, after you graduate high school, you go to college. There's no other options. So the people who didn't go to college

were like, look down upon. And oh, you're not going to college. Really? You're going to ruin your life. And Tinian Crawford is a great example of college is not for everyone. And that's okay that it's not for everyone. You can still make a good living even if you don't go to college. But yes, college is a great choice for a lot of people. I'm definitely not saying that. I can only imagine your clothing design, Scott. You should have gone to school. Hey, you can go back now. Go to school for fashion design. I'm now doing a lot of design for the Bigger Pockets Money website. I'm having a blast doing it.

This is always something that I never could get my head around when I was CEO at Bigger Pockets. I had a lot of fun doing that on BiggerPocketsmoney.com. So go check that out if anybody wants to see my handy, my design skills at work to a certain degree on portions of that site. So I haven't fun with that now, but that's not been my, no, no, that would not have been a good skill coming out of college. Scott, are you looking for feedback? Yes, I am. How can somebody give you feedback on the website? Oh, just email me at Scott at biggerpocketsmoney.com.

So I put that on almost every page that if you see something you don't like, let me know. Scott, I thought this was a really fun conversation. I love that you would do some things differently and some things the same. I really, really love that you would slow down your approach if you were starting now so that you could spend time with your family and give your kids yourself. I think that's an amazing suggestion. And I hope that everybody listening who has small children is listening hard to that part of it. I would even build on that what you just said there and say, I would say I would do a lot of the same things I did last time.

My time in my 20s. If I was starting over again in my 20s, I think the situation is actually quite parallel in some ways with the relative opportunities that were there. I don't think it's changed fundamentally in terms of what to do. I just think there's been more, there's an even greater emphasis on flexibility and exploiting the new opportunities that technology brings. And that's going to really channel rewards disproportionately to the people who are able to spot and find those opportunities and get comfortable with the AI and comfortable with the idea of long stretches of low income with huge boom opportunities when they come up. So I think that's one. The other thing that I would say is there's a stratification of

opportunity for this, right? And I, I wouldn't be going all out with a family. I think that's one thing we've learned here is it's just not practical to put your family through a terrible grind, a death march defy. It is, I think, what we've learned. But it is so still valuable to put yourself through that in your 20s, because you can still have fun and balance all these other things healthily at that point in time, or the stakes are just so high for not doing it in your 50s that you want to do it. So I think that's the really interesting nuance that we unpacked today on it. What about you? Is that the right summary for you in terms of how you'd redo things. It sounds like you would not go through that

death march to fie quite the same way. Not when I have small kids at home. When I don't have any kids or when my kids are older and either out of the house or, you know, don't think I'm cool anymore and don't really want to spend all their extra time with me, then those are the two time periods that you can, you know, if it's not a death march to fie, it's a very focused journey to fie. I'd still think the death march to defy is really not the best choice. I want to have fun in my life. Well, I had fun, Mindy. Sounds like you did too. And thank you so much for a great conversation today. Yes. Thank you for always providing a slightly different point of view than my own. I love hearing where you're coming from. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it.

That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Indy Jensen saying cheerio, deario.