BiggerPockets Money Podcast - Reviewing Our FIRE Journeys, Timelines, and Single Biggest Regret

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hindsight really is 2020. Today, Scott and I are going to be looking back on our respective fire journeys, including timeline, fine numbers, and moving goalposts. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy, and with me, as always, is my not quite ready to retire co-host, Scott Trench. That was a fine intro, Mindy, F-I-N-E, Financial Independence Next Endeavor, because that's what you are on this, not quite retired early. Thank you, Mindy. Bigger Pockets has a goal of creating one million millionaires. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting, or even if you start with a very clear goal in mind and it changes and evolves and doesn't look anything like that by the time you get there. Mindy, excited to get into this with you today. Mindy, did you go into your FI journey with a timeline and a number? Or was there one that you focused on more? Anybody listening to this podcast should be aware that I am Mrs.500 from 1500 days.com. And if you're not, that's okay. I don't really talk about it. But the 1500 was the timeline that my husband and I predicted it would take the number of days, 1,500 days, to reach financial independence from where we were starting, which was a position of about halfway there when we discovered the concept of financial independence. So we were focused more on the timeline to get to the number than the actual number. But we were also really focused on the number.

Starting point is 00:01:36 We ended up doing it sooner than 1,500 days. Conscious readers will be like, yeah, maybe you did it in X number of days. I don't actually remember how long it was. I know it was shorter than the 1,500 days. But I think that everything that we did to go about our financial independence journey outside of like, you know, saving for retirement, we did wrong. We didn't focus on the right things and we didn't enjoy the journey. Mindy, I think you're going to be a rare example of someone who was so clearly focused on the timeline and less on the like the number. I mean, the whole premise is 1500 days or what does that like?

Starting point is 00:02:20 like five, six years, four or five years, somewhere in that range. So, I mean, that's, that's like, I think the healthiest way to do it because you're thinking about it from the right, like the rights framework. It's about getting life back and getting control back and time as the real resource here rather than putting the money first, which I think is backwards for a lot of people, including myself and how I approached it. Well, let me correct you here, Scott. I wasn't focused on the timeline. I was obsessed with the number and we thought we would do it in a certain amount of time, but we were like just hell bent on getting there. And that I think is what makes it such an unhealthy approach. And if I could go back in time, I think I would probably contribute

Starting point is 00:03:15 almost as much to my investments as I did in real life. but I would be more focused on the journey. So, Scott, you mentioned that you were focused on the number. Let's talk about your journey. Yeah, I mean, I set out in 2013. I, you know, I started my job and I became pretty interested in financial independence within probably three months of starting my corporate finance gig. And I think I read the shockingly simple math of early retirement by Mr. Money Mustache

Starting point is 00:03:47 or a precursor article to that. But it was, you know, I'm reaching back. 10 years now. But when that concept hit home, I was like, oh, boom, that's it. And I think I, well, I set a seven-year time horizon to get to between $750,000 and a million. 750,000 was my, my minimum cutoff there. And that was, that was the original goal that I set. And it's moved all over the place for the last 10 years as I've evolved as a person and grow, like, like, okay, I started at 750, and then by 2014, when I had gotten into Bigger Pockets world, I was like, oh, if I house hack, then I don't have any housing expenses. So my number is $340 or whatever it was

Starting point is 00:04:33 at that point in time, because I don't have any housing expenses, and that's the biggest thing, and I bike to work. And then, you know, you turn 25 or 26, and you're like, you know what, the $300,000 in wealth and the house hack is not really a good FI concept. It's back to the $750 to a million. And so it's evolved all over the place as I've moved that journey. The foundational principles that I've never moved, though, and that I'm really glad I've stuck with the whole time, are this concept of after-tax wealth and spendable cash flow being generated by my portfolio.

Starting point is 00:05:11 I think I instinctively knew pretty early on in the journey that the 4% rule was the starting point, but that I had never actually live off a portfolio. portfolio where I was selling stocks. I would need to live off of a minority of the cash flows that my portfolio was generating. So I think that's really interesting. You said a couple of things that I want to highlight. First, you said my number has moved all over the place as I have grown. And I think that's really important to underline. I am looking to talk to people who have reached financial independence. If you have, email me, Mindy at biggerpockets.com. And I want to know how their money number has evolved because when Carl and I were on our path to get to $1 million,

Starting point is 00:05:57 it was always $1 million. And then we bumped it up a little bit to $1,120,000 so that we could have money to pay off our mortgage if we chose, but we didn't want to pay it off at the time. So we're just like, okay, we'll move our number. But our number only changed that one time. And then that was, we just kind of like put that in the back of our mind. but focused on getting to 1 million. But then we got to 1 million and it didn't feel like enough.

Starting point is 00:06:28 And I am truly on the path that or truly in alignment with Bill Bagan's 4% rule. I believe in the 4% rule. I believe it's going to work. I would love to talk to Big Earn because he has done like way more math and says it's more like 3 or 3.5 or whatever. We're going to talk to him down the road. But the number seems to change. with most people that I talk to. Oh, originally my number was this, but then once I got there,

Starting point is 00:06:55 I didn't feel comfortable with it. One more year syndrome. So I moved it again. Has your number changed as your life has changed? So I've known Scott for nine years when we first start. How old are you, Scott now? I'm 34. You're 34. Okay. You just had a birthday. So I've known Scott since she was 25, 26. He was, he had some different thoughts back then, which is fine. Like you were allowed to grow and evolve. But 750, when you're a single guy living in that, you know, that first duplex that you were living in versus now you have a wife, you have a family, you have like a different life than you did nine years ago.

Starting point is 00:07:40 How has your mental financial independence number push back? Because I think that there's a lot of this moving gold posts thing in, in the, the financial independence community. Once I crossed the threshold, which for me, I think, was probably around 28 to 29 years old. And as I assumed leadership here at Bigger Pockets as CEO, there was a, I crossed the inflection point of what I defined as fire. Right. I had well over a million dollar net worth. And I was able to, to generate enough to live my lifestyle without depending on on my on my on my job I do not ever want to go back on the other side of that my portfolio needs to be able to sustain my lifestyle yet as I work I'm piling on more more and more assets

Starting point is 00:08:32 I love my job here at bigger pockets and I'm privileged to have good compensation and opportunities as a result of that my investments continue to perform and so one of the things that like that I think changes is you're like well what why would I continue to to live in a house hack, a duplex here, why wouldn't I begin to expand that from this position here? So I think that there was a, I think I did a good job of keeping those goalposts from moving before hitting FI and not moving them so that the FI number, so that I need to continue to generate more assets from active work. But also, I'm going to start living my life a little bit differently here. Right. I'm, I'm about to celebrate my 11th year anniversary

Starting point is 00:09:18 with my corolla. And I don't know if there will be a 12th year for the corolla. So, you know, I, I think, I think it's time to get an electric vehicle. So like those types of things are, are happening. So it's like, what is the phi number? Well, it's, I'm definitely well past that at this point. And I expect my portfolio to continue to grow and I expect to cautiously and step by step continue to to hopefully get the benefits of that. And I think that's, that's the, that's the magic of achieving financial independence, you know, early on, is that that happens. And I'm, I think that's happening to you to an extent as well, um, you and Carl. Now a quick ad break from our show sponsors. While we're away, we want to hear from you. Do you know when you're going to fire?

Starting point is 00:10:05 You can answer in the Spotify or YouTube app. We'll be right back. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and

Starting point is 00:10:37 investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com Code Pockets.

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Starting point is 00:12:50 Audible has been indispensable for me over over 10 years. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. All right, let's jump back in. One of the things that changed with my financial independence journey was my salary, the household income, household expenses went up dramatically. There's some things you can control and there's some things that you can't control. What do you think people on the path to financial independence should be considering when they're taking into account what they think

Starting point is 00:13:31 their fine number should be? It's been talked about a million times people roll their eyes, but you have to always start it from the spending framework. spending is generally speaking, and again, there's multiple levers, but spending is generally speaking going to be the number one number to figure out in order to plan and back into a FI timeline. And the lower spending gets, the easier the FI timeline gets. It's a geometric relationship, right? A $100,000 income earner who spends $80,000 a year after tax $100,000, after tax, $90,000 spend is going to accumulate one year of wealth in nine years, right? or one year of spending in nine years, right?

Starting point is 00:14:13 $100,000 income earner who spends $50,000 a year is going to accumulate one year of spending in one year. That's not a 40% or 50% increase. That's a 9x faster path to financial independence. So it's a geometric acceleration as your spending declines relative to your income. And it doesn't even stop there because generating $40,000 or $50,000, a year in income from investments is not likely to leave the first person searching for fire subject to tax. You're not going to be in a high tax bracket if you only have to realize

Starting point is 00:14:51 $50,000 a year from your portfolio. If you need to realize $200,000 a year from your portfolio, you're going to be in a high income tax bracket. And so you're going to have to generate more like three or $350 in order to actually realize, you know, depending on what source it's coming from, if it's truly dividends, if it's truly passive, if it's truly long-term capital gains, might be a little less. But you're looking at at minimum a $2.40,000 or $250,000 distribution just to finance that $200,000 and spend.

Starting point is 00:15:18 So when you go from a more lean fire to a fat or chubby fire world, the game gets geometrically more difficult because you're both accumulating less and you need a bigger asset base to finance it, and you've got to multiply, add the tax component on top of that, to realizing fire. So it really does start with the expenses when you're planning this and trying to forecast and back into a timeline. I think that there is really no way to argue with that. You need to have your spending under control. And I don't say that as you need to be the most frugal you

Starting point is 00:15:57 can possibly be. I say that as you need to be conscious of where your money's going. And I think that when we speak with people on finance Fridays or when I'm just even chatting with like regular people, one of my first questions is, you know, is this your actual spending? Do you know what your spending is? And a lot of times people think that they are spending X, but they're actually spending X plus. And of course, every month is going to be different. But if you think you're spending $3,000 a month and you're really spending $3,050, you don't have an issue. But if you think you're spending $3,000 a month and you're really spending five, all of your numbers are out of whack.

Starting point is 00:16:43 Everything is going to be off. And you're going to be like, why am I not reaching financial independence? So you're absolutely right, Scott. Spending is the huge, the biggest consideration that you need to be thinking of, especially at the beginning of your journey. But also throughout your journey, like it's so easy to have your, your, your spending go out of whack when you're not paying attention to it. This is one of the reasons why I tracked my spending in 2022.

Starting point is 00:17:09 You can still see it. It's at biggerpockets.com slash Mindy's budget. You can see how much I didn't guess right on my spending. But I do think that when you are taking into account your fine number, oh, I'm spending $3,000. This is how I did mine. I'm spending $3,000 a month right now. Therefore, that's $36,000 a year.

Starting point is 00:17:30 I'm going to round it up to 40. I only need a million dollars. Well, okay, but my housing costs went up because I moved. My salary changed, which was beneficial. But there's a lot of other expenses that I wasn't having back when I made my fine number 11 years ago when I had a, you know, six-year-old and a three-year-old. Now I have a 14-year-old and a 17-year-old. Guess what? My 17-year-old drives. She didn't need a car, but it's so much easier on me if she has one. there's clothes and school stuff and and and and and so your expenses are going to change. Even in traditional retirement, your expenses are going to change because as you get older, you typically have more health issues and that requires you to spend more. I think that, look, there's a reason why so much of the math and so much the discussion in the

Starting point is 00:18:27 financial independence world derives around this question. And I think that if you want to achieve FI, you're going to, like, you have to focus on this number. You have to be in control and you have to get really confident about it if you're actually going to pull the trigger at the end of the journey and quit your job and begin living off of assets. And a whole host of additional frameworks in the way I plan my finances and the way I think about pursuing financial independence that are at odds with traditional retirement planning advice derived from that very simple observation. The other day, Mindy, we talked about, or a couple weeks ago, we talked about paying off the mortgage, right? Even a low interest rate mortgage, if it's a big mortgage and you're trying to live in a nice house, for example, requires a tremendous amount of income to be realized, which puts you in the higher tax back, which compounds the problems. So once you start thinking about actually pulling the trigger, pull it, putting down, or paying off that mortgage becomes a major factor in requiring less distributions from portfolio to satisfy the. 4% rule. I think we used the example that your mortgage at like 2.85% was like $1,300 in P&I every

Starting point is 00:19:36 month. And it was like $15,000 a year. And the asset base that you need to generate $15,000 a year is what, 15 times 25 is like $375,000, which is more than the balance of your mortgage from there. So those are all considerations that derive from this, how much do I spend problem? and how do I get that expense pile as low as possible so that I don't, I can get, I can rely less on my asset base. I can get to a lower asset base to get there. So that, everything derives from that. And then when we think about the journey to finder, we have two numbers that I always look

Starting point is 00:20:11 for. We always do these finance Fridays and these other conversations with listeners of finances. There's two numbers that I'm looking for. One is your current net worth. What are your assets in right now? And the second is, what is the annual, amount that you're going to keep after taxes that you could invest, right? So if you have 500K and you're saving 50 grand a year, I can do very simple math right there. I say, okay, we have 500K

Starting point is 00:20:37 today and we're going to have another 500K over the next 10 years. That's a million bucks. The 500K is going to compound at some rate over the next couple of years. If it's in a paid off house, 3%. If it's in a stock market index fund, 8 to 10% most likely if we use historical averages. And those cash flows are going to compound at a certain rate, 8 to 10% if they're put into a stock market, 3% if they're paying off a low interest rate mortgage, whatever, right? And so I use those two things to begin backing into the timeline and looking for ways to shorten the journey. Now, some people listen to this will be like, I have $0 and I make $50,000 a year. And I spend $45. Okay, now we've got $5,000 in generation a year.

Starting point is 00:21:23 That has to change in order to move there. And it will change as the years go by. And we think, okay, we build a spreadsheet here. You're going to get to a very long time horizon to achieve FI with that starting point. So we have to think about how we can geometrically expand that. How do we reduce expenses? How do we increase income? And then how do we put in place some big boosts along the way, like a live-in flip

Starting point is 00:21:43 that could contribute $100,000 to $200,000 in after-tax wealth to really boost and accelerate that journey by, you know, what is that? 40 years from the year one position over 5,000. But, you know, but really in practice boost that journey by three, four, five year chunks in one goes. So that's, that's the framework I always used to size how long this thing is going to take for people to get to their end goal. I think there's a lot of people who don't really dive into the aspects of it. They think, oh, I'm making 50 and I'm only spending 45, so I'm saving 5,000. And that's awesome.

Starting point is 00:22:23 Let's celebrate that because that is not the norm in American society. But it's also not going to get you to financial independence to early financial independence. It might not ever get you to financial independence unless something changes like you said. Scott, we just did an episode where we talked, it was kind of a, we called it a tough love episode where we talked about, you know what, you might not reach financial independence. And I'm pretty sure I gave off this Dave Ram, quote in that episode. That was episode 563. I don't know if I said that. Live like no one else now so you can live like no one else later. If you want to be financially independent, you have to change what you're doing now. And you said the way I think

Starting point is 00:23:07 is sometimes at odds with traditional FI advice, I want you to seek out listeners. I want you to seek out people who are at odds with traditional FI advice. You might not agree with it. Scott is a proponent of real estate investing. I am a proponent of real estate investing. That doesn't mean you have to invest in real estate. Look at the traditional FI advice is VTSAX. Well, maybe that doesn't float your boat. Maybe you want something else instead. Go and look at what other people are doing and kind of choose your own adventure with regards to your FI journey. But always come back to the fact that the lower your expenses, the faster you're going to get there. The higher your income, the faster you're going to get there. Combine them both, lower expenses and higher income, blam, you're going to get there

Starting point is 00:23:55 quickly. So I think that's it, right? It's the gap between your expense, your income and your expenses multiplied by years and returns. And there's a lot of calculators out there that will help you figure that out. What I'd encourage everyone to do, and the way I approach this is there's a formula, right? I'm going to save this much. I'm going to invest it in the index fund, and I'm going to let time compound and I got my, you know, a shockingly simple math of early retirement, like Mr. Money Moustache wrote almost a decade ago, a little bit over a decade ago today, right? That's one. But don't stop there, right? This is about financial independence. And if you're listening to this and if you're serious about it, layer on the pot shots on top of that, right? You know, can you do a live and flip?

Starting point is 00:24:36 can you do a house hack? Can you start a small business? Can you do a side hustle? Right? Layer these things on and my framework for that, which we've talked about a lot, Mindy is nine out of ten businesses fail. So start 10 businesses, right? You take two and a half years, right? And you say, every 90 days, I'm going to try a new concept. I'm going to, this 90 days, I'm going to buy a live and flip. Then maybe I take another night. And if that works out, and you find the great deal, you spend the next 90 days actually completing the new, the flip, we're getting as far as you can. Great. That's complete. You live in it for a year or two. Then you start, you explore a really hairbrained scheme that I had around winter gloves for driving because your hands get cold,

Starting point is 00:25:18 which went absolutely nowhere and was a terrible plan. And then there was winter tire rental businesses, which geometrically compounds the amount of inventory that you have to have because what, you have a set of tires and then somebody else. So, yeah, that was a terrible plan. And then, you know, I did a t-shirt. And so you just like try it, layer those things on and you know nine of that down a 10 are going to are going to fail.

Starting point is 00:25:38 You don't go into them because you know they're going to fail, but you just know that's the odds of your best ideas. Nine out of ten of your best ideas will fail. And by the end of two and a half years, you got a winner. And then after five years, you got two. And after 10 years, you got four. And you get four business winners. One of those could really make a big difference on your, on your, you know, one of those four might drive in, you know, 80% of your income or outputs on there. And that's it. And you do those two things, the formula and those ideas and pursuing these kind of ideas on some sort of cadence, you will accelerate that timeline beyond what the formula tells you is going to happen.

Starting point is 00:26:17 Almost certainly. There will be periods where that won't be true, but that will be the reality for many or most to pursue it like that. So, Scott, I actually quote you frequently on a multitude of things, but the, oh, 90% of all small businesses fail, start 10 businesses. I say that to a lot of people who are talking about, I want to start a small business. I wish you would have said something back when you wanted to start winter driving gloves and tire rental because I would have had some advice for you then. Well, I never actually got them off the ground because they were terrible ideas.

Starting point is 00:26:52 But I explored them for several weeks, wrote the thesis kind of did all. I know like went nowhere. That's it. That's it. That's all it is. You give up when it becomes clear that it's not worth the effort on those. And then you find something. But I think that that's the, I think that's the framework.

Starting point is 00:27:07 And that's why you hear all these stories about people who achieve financial independence. And they've always got, or not always, but a huge percentage of them have some sort of wacky, very specific situation to them, which is the norm because that framework is being applied to, you know, all of these different people who are pursuing both bullying. We've got to take one final break, but stick around for more on adjusting your FI timeline when we're back. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money

Starting point is 00:27:44 is going, and more importantly, where your taxed refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware, and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like

Starting point is 00:28:11 is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockets at Monarch.com

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Starting point is 00:30:47 with Desjardin business, it's all under one roof. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us, and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk. Business. Welcome back to the show. Okay, so let's go into a bit of a different direction. I have talked to people who say, oh, I hope I can get to financial independence in 15 years.

Starting point is 00:31:13 I'm like, okay, what's your fine number? Well, my fine number's a million and I'm at 900,000 right now. I'm like, ah, you're probably going to make it a little bit sooner than 15 years. But on the flip side, there are people who are like, I want to quit my job next year. Okay, great. What's your net worth? Well, I've got, you know, $100,000 in student loans and I make $50,000 a year now. And, you know, I'm spending $49,000 and a half thousand every year.

Starting point is 00:31:39 I'm like, well, I don't, the eight ball, the magic eight ball says outlook not good that you're going to reach financial independence in a year. What are some of the detriments, do you think, to focusing on too short of a timeline? Two reactions. One is it will be discouraging. but the second is that in that user's specific case, I don't think the goal should be fire in there. It should be getting out of that job, right? The long-term goal is, you know, I think should, for folks listening to this podcast, should often be fire, right, in terms of getting to financial independence and early retirement here and having an asset base

Starting point is 00:32:18 that can remove the need for work. But if you really hate your job and you're starting with, you know, anywhere close to a median income and zero net worth, then I would just distinguish. encourage you to go the different route of flexibility. And one of the problems that people find themselves is they're trapped in their job, right? And why do you get, how do you get trapped in your job? Well, you get trapped because you optimized for income. So this is the highest paying job that I could get, right? That was reasonable that or whatever around this. And there's no other job or few other jobs that would allow me to, you know, to do this kind of work and get the same paycheck.

Starting point is 00:32:57 If you make 80 grand and you spend $78,000, you're going to be stuck. That's not a pleasant situation because you can't take a $75,000 a year job that is way better and removes all the things that you hate about your life and your job because that $5,000 difference. And so I think that the game becomes about flexibility. If you spend $40,000 a year and you make $80,000 a year, chances are you can find a job for $60,000 that removes those problems. maybe gives you more time to pursue other interests, side hustles, other wealth building activities,

Starting point is 00:33:32 actually make you richer over a longer period of time. But that's the trap, I think, that a lot of workers find themselves in. And I think that your goal in that situation should be flexibility. How do I, if someone has $80,000 of your job and they've got $50,000 in the bank, in liquidity in their savings account, and they're saving $3,000, $4,000 a month, they're not going to be stuck in that job for, you. you know, years and years and years, hate in life, they're going to get another opportunity. They're going to see something come up that's going to give them better or longer term upside.

Starting point is 00:34:05 But again, there's so many people I think that are in the prior situation of just like they spend essentially all that they earn and they're optimized for income. And so they're just totally trapped in that job. And that's where you start to hate it. I love this point, Scott, because most people who hear about financial independence pursue it, let's be honest, because they hate their job. Either they hate their job or they hate that they have to go to a job instead of doing whatever they want. And changing jobs doesn't really come up in a lot of FI advice.

Starting point is 00:34:41 It's just put your nose to the grindstone and, you know, bust it out and get to FI and then leave. But changing jobs can change the whole, it can change your whole life. It will change your whole life. I have had jobs where I get up in the morning. I can't believe I have to go to this job. I hate this job. When I started working at Bigger Pockets, I felt guilty that I was leaving because Carl was working with the girls and they're like fighting and bickering and whatever his kids do.

Starting point is 00:35:10 And I'm like, I'm going to go to work by. I'm going to have a great time. I love my job so much. This is so awesome. So just having a different job that you enjoy, maybe it pays less, but you have so much less stress changes your death march to financial independence and makes it more of a journey that you can focus on enjoying. I love that you said that. And I think that's also part of the dynamic in a lot of fire people, right? You hear a lot of fire people who are like, I'm fire and I work.

Starting point is 00:35:38 And I don't think that, I think that that's a component of this, right? Because, you know, let's, you hate, fire is a motivator, and it should be for people who hate their jobs, right? I want to hate my job, I want to retire early. It starts that way. Did I hate my first job? No, but I didn't want to be doing it for 20 years. And so fire was a huge motivator for me. The idea of not having to work is a huge motivator.

Starting point is 00:36:04 And I think it will be for 30, 40, maybe upwards of 50% of the U.S. population on that. But as you pursue fire, as you rack up 30, 40, 50, 60, 70% savings rate over the years and decades, as you accumulate assets into the 100s. to thousands or millions of dollars that generate cash flow. And the wage is less relevant to to what you're doing. I think what we found with a lot of fire people is they're like, I either love my job or if I don't like it, it pays so much that it's really hard to walk away from from that. And like, that's the problem you want to give yourself as a worker, right? Is you like your job? So you're not going to leave it. Or it's just so compelling that the

Starting point is 00:36:49 pile, the ability to add onto the pile is there. And I think that that is almost, you know, a common theme among a good number of people who are pursuing fire in the space, or at least that I've encountered. Would you say that's true for many of the people you encounter? That they either make so much money as hard to quit or they actually like their job. Yes. I would say I'm meeting different people. I am meeting the people who make so much that it's hard to quit and I'm meeting the people who like their job. But I'm also meeting a lot of people who are like, I'm on the path. I don't really like my job. I don't hate it so much that it's ruining my life, but I don't want to continue once I have my financial independence number reached.

Starting point is 00:37:28 Scott, what are the major milestones that you set to help you keep track of your progress, or did you keep track of your progress? In terms of milestones, I personally, you know, I think that the events that really helped accelerate by were each of my rental property investments. I think it was the various promotions I got here at Bigger Pockets in my career. And I don't think I really worked out a lot of different milestones. That wasn't the way I was thinking about it. I looked at the number every week, if not multiple times a week, and ran the analysis, you know, monthly or quarterly on my personal financial position, you know, to kind of run projections and estimates and those types of things. But I don't know if I really thought about it in terms of like, oh,

Starting point is 00:38:25 this milestone of 250 will be reached at this point and this one will be reached here. It was just a constant progression. How did you think about it, Mindy? You know, Carl and I didn't really have milestones either. We had this one goal and we started a blog very shortly after we discovered financial independence and we published monthly net worth updates. So it was easier to see where we were going because we were like every month we had to publish this. I mean, I remember being on vacation with Carl. He's like, I got to find an internet connection because I got to log in and get a screenshot of our net worth today before the market's open tomorrow. I'm like, Like, really, is it that serious?

Starting point is 00:39:09 You know, but it helped to see where we were. I think it is important to keep track of, even though longtime listeners of this show will know that I don't check in on my net worth now. I was reading those net worth trackers or those net worth statements when they were published just to see where we were. I think it's really important to check in. And Carl is obsessed. I tell him this too.

Starting point is 00:39:38 I'm not talking smack about him when he can't hear. Carl is obsessed with checking our numbers. He checks them every morning. I think that's too much. There are people who check them once a year. I think that's a little too infrequently. I like the quarterly or monthly check-ins. And if you are on the path of financial independence,

Starting point is 00:39:58 you're feeling terrible because the market just crashed or you're feeling terrible for whatever XYZ reasons. and then look at how frequently you're checking in with yourself and change that frequency. But I don't know that I would do the days again. I think I would focus more on the number and the experience on the way to the number. I think that that's good learning here. And I'm trying to think about how I would have re-approached it here. I think I would have done the same thing.

Starting point is 00:40:28 I think the framework is the right one of just understanding the goal, keeping expenses as low as possible, tracking frequently, making sure the formula will lead me to my end destination and layering on top the additional bets that could potentially, that have the ability, the unpredictable, the things you can't put in a model, but have the potential to accelerate the journey. And then, you know, I think that there's a little bit of a lighten up phrase that comes, and it probably applies to both of our journeys, Mindy with moving to financial independence. You know, you're going to get to. there. And you're not really going to care 10 years from now if you got there six months sooner

Starting point is 00:41:10 because you didn't buy, you know, the steak and potatoes at the steak restaurant instead of the hamburger. And so I think that that's kind of the only piece that I might have reframed or changed early in my journey. I definitely wish I would have focused on the journey because even if it focusing on the journey as opposed to the end number gets you an extra year of working, but now you have 11 years of a nice life instead of eight years, nine years, 10 years of this like just all out desperate travel to get to the end. Like Carl wrote an article called The Death March to FI and it was like, this is everything we did wrong. and it was pretty much everything, except for the whole investing part.

Starting point is 00:42:02 We did that part right and everything else was wrong. So I guess what I want to share with people, what's your FI timeline? Your FI timeline should be fluid and it should be realistic. It should be attainable. It should be like so flexible because if you have an opportunity to do something that's going it costs a lot of money, but it's kind of like one of those once-a-lifetime opportunities, take it and extend your FI journey so the whole thing is enjoyable. Don't eat rice and beans every single day, unless that's what you want to do.

Starting point is 00:42:38 Don't eat rice and beans every single day so you can reach financial independence earlier. Like, enjoy the parts that you really want to enjoy. I think that's it, right? And again, you know, I don't feel personally that I didn't do that. I think that in too much of it, I can remember several instances. But it's like, I don't know. I prioritized partying on the weekends and, you know, video games, my nice, my nice, my nice computer there and those types of things.

Starting point is 00:43:07 And I didn't prioritize a nice car, a nice place to live, you know, the steak at the restaurant, which is probably one of those things that, you know, I could have done and gone out to more dinners with friends and those types of things. But I think that that's, you can do that. And I think that, again, that phrase lighten up, I think, you know, applies to a degree. but I will take the stance today that I'm very glad that I did what I did in my 20s and approached it with the level of intensity that I did because I think it is a big reward and it's great to have those options now at 34 and to be able to not have to worry whenever I want

Starting point is 00:43:46 to do something fun with my wife or baby at this point. That's stuff I worked hard for and I'm enjoying that now and I believe I will have the ability to potentially do that for the rest of my life. And I think that that's worth it by a long shot. Well, this has been a really fun discussion, I think, Mindy, and I, yeah, I think it was really introspective. I think I was actually expecting to go a little bit of a different direction with some of the ways we talked about it. But I thought, you know, I think that just talking about our journeys was, was hopefully helpful and illuminating for some folks. I want to hear from our listeners. How was your journey? How would you have made changes to it, knowing what you know now, if you knew it then. And how long did it take you?

Starting point is 00:44:28 Did you focus on the number or the timeline? And did you enjoy the journey? Or did you death march it like Carl and I did? Email, Mindy at biggerpockets.com, email Scott at biggerpockets.com, or email us both. Yeah. And I want to say thank you. I mean, we actually put a similar message out to reach out to us for how to reach fire based on your income, the episode that released on October 1, first here on BiggerPockets money. And almost 50 of you must have reached out to me. Thank you. It was very thoughtful and detailed messages.

Starting point is 00:45:01 So just know when I love that. Please do. I will respond to every single one. Just know that in some of these, it might take me a couple days. But I look forward to hearing from you guys. And thank you. Me and Mindy both appreciated that.

Starting point is 00:45:11 Yeah. It's awesome to get emails from our listeners. So Mindy at BiggerPockets.com. Scott at BiggerPockets.com. We made it real easy. You don't even have to remember our last names. However, I will tell you that that wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and he is Scott Trench and we are saying goodbye, Peach Pie.

BiggerPockets Money Podcast - Reviewing Our FIRE Journeys, Timelines, and Single Biggest Regret

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